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Inspire Club Ep #30 - Jason Lauritsen
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In this episode of The Inspire Club Podcast, Matt Manners talks with author and thought leader Jason Lauritsen about rehumanising leadership and building better relationships at work. From lessons learned in bad management to the importance of kindness and care, Jason shares how genuine connection transforms teams, leaders, and communities. A powerful, practical conversation for anyone who believes the future of work is personal.
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Transcript
Introduction to Inspire Club Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the Inspire Club podcast. I'm Matt Manners, founder and CEO of the Inspiring Workplaces Group, and it's great to be back again.
00:00:20
Speaker
As always, let's just get straight into it. Today's guest is a man named Jason Lawrenson. Jason is a true thought leader in the world of work and employee engagement who's dedicated to revolutionizing the way we lead with relationships.
00:00:36
Speaker
He fearlessly challenges traditional norms to reshape the employee experience by consistently placing authentic human connection at the heart of leadership. I firmly believe that leadership is most impactful when it's built on genuine care, support and respect.
00:00:51
Speaker
He helps organizations reimagine their role in helping people lead fuller, more meaningful lives.
Meet Jason Lawrenson: Author and Thought Leader
00:00:56
Speaker
um He is the author of two books, which I would highly recommend you so go look them up, Unlocking High Performance and Social Gravity.
00:01:06
Speaker
His thought leadership has even been featured in Forbes, Fast Company, Talent Management Magazine, HR Executive Magazine, and Sherm Publications. On a personal note, I remember meeting Jason close to 10 years ago, which is quite scary.
00:01:19
Speaker
And we shared a panel session at HR Tech in Chicago, and boy, did people listen. I know I did. In fact, I actually forgot I was one of the panelists at one stage and had to really try and refocus.
00:01:31
Speaker
Since then, we've spoken for hours, worked on many things, talked about many things. I'm genuinely excited to have him on this podcast and learn what his answers are going to be to some of our regular questions.
00:01:43
Speaker
So on that note, please welcome Jason. Hello. How are you doing? Matt, my friend. It's good to be here.
Personal Connections and 49ers Fandom
00:01:50
Speaker
ah Sorry to bring this up. I should have mentioned it before we got on the podcast, but sorry about the 49ers and the Super Bowl this year.
00:01:56
Speaker
Close again. I really was rooting for you guys because I'm not a that big a fan of the Chiefs, despite Taylor Swift and the Travis Kelce thing. So I'm sorry sorry to see what happened that Sunday.
00:02:08
Speaker
Listen, i've I've been reflecting on it since, and the way I look at it is there's only one team that's been more successful than the 49ers over the last five years, and that's the Chiefs. And so we have one objective going forward. But there was a win inside of this is that I have successfully sort of converted my children all into 49ers fans.
00:02:29
Speaker
And my daughter, who is 16, is a huge Taylor Swift fan. But she imposed a Taylor Swift music ban for a week leading up to the Super Bowl out of solidarity for the Niners. So I'm like, i there's so there was wins inside the loss, sadly, but um but I'm taking it. There's next year. Next year is ours.
Inspiring Stories from Work
00:02:50
Speaker
Well, fantastic. And was was there like a two-week ban on Taylor Swift post the Super Bowl? or yeah i think I think bygones. Bygones at that point. I think she went back Taylor right after the Super Bowl.
00:03:03
Speaker
Well, one consoling point is at least you're not a New York Jets fan like myself. So ah maybe next century is is what we're thinking. That's fair. So, look, let's get into it. As everybody knows who listens regularly and those who don't, um our first rule of Inspire Club is to share a story of somebody who's inspired you at work.
00:03:24
Speaker
and And if you want to share who that person is So this might be...
00:03:34
Speaker
I know this is maybe gonna feel like, I don't know, feel like a cop out or maybe I'm stretching the rules a little bit, but um I happen to live in a house with some pretty inspiring humans.
00:03:48
Speaker
One of them is my wife and she and I do work together. um at least we we, I have, ah obviously i run my business um doing, you know, speaking and training and a variety of other things to help organizations.
00:04:02
Speaker
And she, there were this series of years when we started this business that we were both full-time in the business together. Today, she still serves kind of as the CFO of the organization and does a bunch of work in the background, but she's off doing other things.
00:04:18
Speaker
And um I would say from, so so she's who I'm going to talk about, is that my wife is like a daily source of inspiration for me that I think I think sets a model for how probably we should all show up in in the world um differently. And I'll put back, a sort of the way I would boil it down is that she has kind of a motto that she operates on that is see a need, fill a need.
00:04:52
Speaker
And so she's she's operated on this for years and years. And like when it was you know when we started this business, when i was leaving my last hopefully last ever full-time employment job. i'm not i' am not Unless something goes terribly, terribly, terribly wrong, that will be my last one.
00:05:12
Speaker
Starting this business, at the time, it just the the thing that made the most sense for our family and for our financial future was for her to join the business, for
Balancing Business and Marriage
00:05:22
Speaker
us to launch this business together. And so it was one of those, see a need, fill a need. And it wasn't her favorite kind of work. It wasn't her in her sort of zone of genius, perhaps, but she did it because that's what we what we needed. And it was incredibly important and valuable for the first several years of the business. And then eventually we realized if we're going to stay married, we probably should not be doing business together anymore.
00:05:47
Speaker
And so we decided it was best for both of us to to part ways um from a business perspective, or at least change that relationship. But then after that, Matt, as you know,
00:05:59
Speaker
In addition to the the work she does with the business, she she's dedicated her life to being a community servant and more specifically trying to um serve as an elected official. She was elected to our local city council.
00:06:18
Speaker
She then ran for mayor here. She lost very, very narrowly um in that race back in 2020 or 2020. ah twenty I don't know. don't Don't quote me on the years. It all blends together. It's COVID years. it does. and then Fast forward a couple of years, she makes a run for state legislature here.
00:06:38
Speaker
And i the thing about her that completely um i mean inspires me on a daily basis is that in the face of like, she is so committed to having an impact and she cares so deeply about the work she does and about these injustices in the world that she sees and wants to, to rectify and be a part of solving that she continues to throw herself like in, it's like throwing herself in front of a train over and over and over again.
00:07:10
Speaker
And I'm just like, it's so, you know, and so I think I thought about, as I'm thinking about her, I think the thing that inspires me, and I think this is the model that I think I try to follow. And I wish everybody, every organization, every CEO would follow is that,
00:07:23
Speaker
She will see see the the thing that needs to be solved. She'll see the problem. She will sort of commit to wanting to be a part of the solution. And despite the fact that it's going to be hard and there might be great sacrifice and there might be great consequence, she will do it anyways because it's the right thing to do. And I don't think there's a lot of that out there. So like I live with that every day. It's kind of of a miracle and a gift from the universe that I get that kind of inspiration sort of waking up next to me every morning.
00:07:56
Speaker
Yeah, well, wow. Thank you for her inspiration to you and and therefore driving you on and what you do, because I know you inspire lots of others. But that's a special rare breed of person, I think, that gets up and keeps going, like dusts themselves off, keeps going to to to to do the right thing.
00:08:18
Speaker
You know, I think a lot of us would like to try and be like that, but just necessarily aren't built that way. So hats off to her. Yeah, very inspiring indeed.
00:08:31
Speaker
I know I've listened to what you as a family have gone through to in those in those years so to try and do the right thing and to improve your community and and your state. So long long may she continue to do that and and hopefully continue to have an impact as well.
00:08:48
Speaker
The other piece of it that, I mean, the other thing that I am constantly inspired by with her is the way, and again, it's another model, but she is able to, like, she has this this really open, curious mind that, like, she truly cares about people.
00:09:08
Speaker
And so she can enter into a conversation with someone who she doesn't necessarily agree with who, who maybe sees things very differently than she does. and she has a way of, finding common ground with them. She has a way of of sort of understanding their perspective or understanding where they're coming from.
00:09:26
Speaker
she has a way of helping them understand issues in a different way, a way that maybe means something more to them. So like I really, that I think is ah also another very rare thing that helps inspire me and informs my work too, right? Because it's easy to have conversations with people you agree with and who you align with on values, it's really challenging to step into these conversations with people that you don't agree with and try to find that common humanity.
00:09:54
Speaker
um Because the reality is there's more that there's more that we are aligned around or there's more we have in common. It's just we tend to focus on the things that separate us. And she seems to be able to find her way to that middle ground, which is a great inspiration and reminder for me daily.
00:10:10
Speaker
Absolutely. And if only we could we could all be have access to that every day because I think that's one of the the skills that and reminders that we need as just a human race right now that we do but we do usually agree on most things it's only a very few things that we do disagree on um but whether it be social media technology media whatever it might be that we kind of the wedge issues as they say try and try and drive us apart when actually we quite often Do tend to agree on most things. So yeah, fantastic. Well, thank thank you so much for sharing sharing that story. i don't know whether you want to share her name or not or keep that private. That's totally up to you. but Her name is Angie. You can go look her up. If you can spell my last name, she has the same last name, Angie Lortz, and you can go find her online and and and follow her or engage with her if you'd like.
00:11:01
Speaker
Well, thank you, Angie, for inspiring Jason Daly, because i I can only speak personally, but Jason, you inspire me. So um that's a byproduct of that. So thank you so
Workplace Dynamics: Kindness and Relationships
00:11:12
Speaker
much.
00:11:12
Speaker
um One thing we've added to the podcast this year, uh is trying to flip a negative so what negative experience have you seen or had happened to you in the workplace that has actually driven you to to do good so you've seen something i never want to see that happen again and that's actually driven you forward to help do good in the world
00:11:36
Speaker
how much time do we have matt Well, i have I have the one horror story that I always go back to, but i people will have heard it so many times on there. But yeah, well you can pick one or two if you want. As long as they help as long as they've driven you to do good things, that's a good thing. right I think about my... So much of my work, I think, was driven off of, like, that was a terrible experience. and
00:12:03
Speaker
And so I think, I mean...
00:12:07
Speaker
trying to pick out one that is really, um really telling. i think,
00:12:16
Speaker
I mean, I said, there's so many that that have fueled me. I think there's one specific, I can think of one specific example that um was an example where i had a leader that I had gone to work for. And by this time I was fairly senior level, right? Senior senior level person. I'm reporting to a very senior level person.
00:12:38
Speaker
And um it was clear by this point that there was a ah very real cultural mismatch. And um my boss and I were very much at odds.
00:12:50
Speaker
And went to, think, I'm not conflict avoidant. i think you know it was i'm not conflict avoidant She was very conflict avoidant.
00:13:00
Speaker
And so like all these conversations, like she wanted to, like she'd open a conversation and then I'd step into it and then she'd retreat because it just wasn't comfortable for her. she didn't know what to do with me. And so at some point she decided to invite me to lunch to talk to me about kind of what my what my vision was or what was sort of where I, you know, try to understand what I was motivated by. At least that was the ruse of the lunch.
00:13:26
Speaker
And when she asked me the question, I told her the truth. And the reality was it wasn't, it she didn't care. It was a trap. um in In their model, there was only one right answer, which is I want to retire here.
00:13:41
Speaker
Like that is the only thing that you could possibly say that made any sort of sense. If you had any ah aspirations other than that, you were obviously a lunatic.
00:13:52
Speaker
And so... it um It, like that, that quickly deteriorated into a whole bunch of stuff. She actually then stopped kind of communicating with me directly. A bunch of things happened after that. And so I think for me, the lesson, I mean, there's a whole bunch of lessons in there. Number one, don't, so first off, we have to understand that humans are whole humans and work is something that we, we do. Some people do it for like, my work is a calling today, but I work for myself.
00:14:24
Speaker
Some people work as a calling. Some people work as um something that that, you know, maybe they're really good at and they're interested in. And it's it's something that there there is meaning there. Some people work just for money so that they can do the other thing that they really love that maybe they can't make money at, whatever it is. But people have lots of different...
00:14:43
Speaker
um have lots of different motivations. And even if someone's not motivated the way that you think they should be motivated or they're not committed in the way you think you they should be committed, that doesn't mean that they're not making an impact.
00:14:58
Speaker
That doesn't mean that they're not, um you know, that they can't contribute. And it also doesn't invalidate the time that they're there with you. And and i so so that was one. And I think the second is that, first off, don't don't ever ask a question that you're not prepared to hear the the honest answer to.
00:15:20
Speaker
If you aren't prepared for a range of answers that aren't the one you're hoping to hear, then you probably shouldn't ask that question in the first place until you are ready. Because you know as I look back on this, this wasn't an issue. I told her the truth. I never hid any of this from her. This was a her issue. It wasn't a me issue.
00:15:38
Speaker
Now, maybe I was a little abrasive, whatever. I don't know. At that point, I was kind of i was over it a little bit. But I contrast that against, I had another leader years ago, a CEO,
00:15:50
Speaker
who we sat down, had a very similar conversation. he He asked me like, what does your future look like? What are you thinking? And I laid it out for him. And that future did not involve working for his organization because I thought I needed to move on to a different organization. yeah That would launch me to be able to do the things beyond working inside of an organization I wanted to do.
00:16:11
Speaker
And he looked at me and he said, why do you think it needs to be either or? It's like, why don't you think that we could create that here? um that we could do that together. And like, what a different conversation, right? Because what he was looking at was like seeing me and seeing what my motivations were.
00:16:28
Speaker
And so that's the way you do it right. Now that doesn't always lead to You know, that doesn't always work out that way. I've had people in my own life who I have managed or led where there's times where they say, well, here's what I want. And it's like, unfortunately, i don't think I can create that for you, but I certainly will be happy to sort of help you in whatever ways I can to get you there.
00:16:52
Speaker
Because I knew that that would mean they're going to give me their best while I've got them. They're going to go on and do something great somewhere else, have a big impact on the world. I will learn. And then hopefully they'll help me find somebody to replace them as they're on their way out. So I just think, so those are, those are probably the two big lessons is just recognize that Work isn't everything for everybody.
00:17:12
Speaker
It shouldn't be. We need balance in our lives, see the whole human, acknowledge the whole human and understand that sometimes people are just with us for a while on the journey and that's okay. That doesn't mean that they can't contribute at a level that's equal to anybody else. um Don't invalidate what they're doing today just because they don't um necessarily want to commit to you forever.
00:17:35
Speaker
Well, a lot, there's a lot there. And, you know, wholeheartedly agree. I almost, there should never be a default position based upon what you've said. You should be open to having the conversation and open to a multitude of responses when you ask questions. But should we not be near the, the, the end or the other end of the spectrum where you're going, you're going to be here at this organization for a period of time, you know, rather than you're going be here to the end of your, end of your days. And, and how, and what do you want out of life?
00:18:06
Speaker
How can I help you get there? And if it's here or there, how can I help you get there? And what fulfills you is a much better place to start than the other end of the spectrum.
00:18:17
Speaker
Well, I think it's like any i mean it's like any other relationship. Is that healthy relationships, healthy relationships of any kind, if you think, let's talk about two people, two humans, is two independent humans who are choosing to be together.
00:18:35
Speaker
Yeah. yeah When one of them has no choice or doesn't deem that they have any agency or choice in staying in that relationship, that relationship starts to deteriorate, period.
00:18:47
Speaker
And so that's why marriages fall apart. um you know A marriage isn't like... I know some people will will disagree with me, but I don't like just because you stood up and made that commitment.
00:18:59
Speaker
It's not the commitment you made the day you got married that keeps you together. It's the commitment you make every single day, every single moment to stay in that. I choose to stay in this relationship.
00:19:11
Speaker
um Not I have to stay in this relationship. I mean, that's why like there's a lot of people in miserable relationships out there, miserable marriages, because they don't understand that simple that simple kind of truth about healthy relationships. And so same true at work.
00:19:27
Speaker
We have to choose each other every day. Fantastic. and And importantly, as you keep repeating, seeing each other as human beings, which we are, that shouldn't be a stretch.
00:19:38
Speaker
It should be quite simple, really. um What's a major work major workplace priority right now and youre in your mind?
00:19:50
Speaker
um i think this is maybe a little self-serving, but I can't get away from it because it's so important. It's what I've dedicated my work to the last couple years is surprise, surprise. It's about really finding and connecting with the human at work. I think the stress of the world just continues to dial up. It's like that volume knob doesn't stop at 10. It keeps going and going and you're like, what is happening? And so,
00:20:22
Speaker
We've got people, you know this whole, this this recent sort of Elmo thing that happened, right? you know Elmo in the US anyways, there's this video, Elmo's asking how people are and the responses on social media is like, we are not okay.
00:20:35
Speaker
We are not okay. And so, and and I think because of that, and then i also recently read, there was an article in the Atlantic about why why or when we stopped stopped hanging out.
00:20:51
Speaker
Right. And it's sort of about how our social, you know, like we just aren't spending time with people the way we used to. And this is a ah trend across all ages, all generations, all demographics.
00:21:02
Speaker
And so the one place that we still sort of convene regularly is work. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's an opportunity there to heal, to to help sort of, I think, really move us forward if if we can we can find real moments of human connection, if we can get into real conversations um with other people. And so it's, it's I think, so my work that I've really been focused on lately is helping particularly managers and leaders understand how to have or how to get into a more important or meaningful conversation with their people more quickly.
00:21:45
Speaker
um Yeah. You know, people call it check-ins or whatever. check-in can be bad. A check-in can be really good if you do it the right way. But it's, how can we start having more of the conversations that matter with our people so that we can show them that we see them, that we care about them, that we know they're struggling, that we can, if they need support, we can give it. If they need to be celebrated, we can do that, whatever that thing is. So I think it's, it's,
00:22:08
Speaker
learning how to have better conversations, teaching our leaders and managers how to model better conversations so that people can learn from that. And then that will foster deeper, better relationships.
00:22:23
Speaker
um And I think that's the key to everything. if we can If we can make the relationship at work feel healthier, that will help, that trickles back to the community, that trickles back to homes and families and friendships. And so that's what I think is top one priority. And that touches all the issues we have around you know retention, around mental health, around engagement. It all boils down to better relationships, better conversations in the end, I think.
Effective Employee Engagement Strategies
00:22:53
Speaker
um Absolutely. um Yes, again, so much to unpick there. um
00:23:02
Speaker
We'll take a moment there.
00:23:07
Speaker
Yeah, this there's a lot lot to unpick there. And I think, suppose one quick follow-up question would be what is a really good way for you to check in? What what are some good questions to to check in with people if you're a manager or a leader at work?
00:23:23
Speaker
Well, the the one that I talk about the most, which is the simplest, um is actually sort of built on the probably the the worst and laziest check-in that we have. Question.
00:23:35
Speaker
So, Matt, what's the most common question that people ask? How are you? How are you? That's how we led. Now, you and I can do it because we already have trust. We know each other.
00:23:46
Speaker
You know when I ask you, or I know when you ask me, how are you? You actually want to know. That does not exist for most employees. So you can't assume that because when you usually ask, how are you? What do people say?
00:23:59
Speaker
Okay. Not bad. Fine. Yeah. Decent. Whatever. My son says decent. I always love that. It doesn't tell you much. but When I lived in ah when i lived in eight England, which I still do, i was like, not bad, not bad. And I lived in Sydney five years and it actually became good, good, because I think the sunshine in Australia is a cool place.
00:24:20
Speaker
And I've regressed back to not bad now we' living back in the UK. So there's obviously some something that's, that's ah I digress there. And it doesn't mean anything, right? I mean, none of it means anything other than...
00:24:32
Speaker
you you've asked me this obligatory question, I've given you my obligatory response and now we move on. We pretended like you cared, right? But that's not what we're trying to get to. So what I what i teach people, i have a four-step process that actually, if you go to my website, um you can it'll there's a pop-up and you can actually request it and download it that talks about this. But it's basically four steps. One is ask a great question.
00:24:56
Speaker
You just asked, that is the heart of it. The great question is a question that demands a follow-up question. So that, yeah so how are you? You take that, if you add on, hey, Matt, how are you today on a scale from one to 10?
00:25:12
Speaker
Okay, right, yeah. And so if you, whatever you say now, if you're like, instead, you can't say not bad or good, you'd have to say, well, I'm i'm a three. Yeah.
00:25:23
Speaker
Then I can't just go, all right, good. Well, nice. Good check-in off to the, like, I can't leave that conversation now. I have to follow up. So a three tells me something very significant and something very different than an eight, something different than a five.
00:25:38
Speaker
So then the next question is, wow. Okay. Three, that sounds like maybe you've had better days. um Can you, is there anything that you like to talk about or tell me what's going on that's pulling that number down?
00:25:53
Speaker
Yeah. So now to what would that take? 20 seconds. We're now into a real conversation. Real conversation. Yeah. And so that's, and so you ask when you have a question, so that's a good question. You take that one to 10 scale and add it on to virtually any question you ask your direct reports.
00:26:09
Speaker
And that question gets more interesting. Hey, how you, how confident are you feeling about um your ability to deliver that project on time? Let's say from one to 10, right?
00:26:19
Speaker
They're like, I'm at a nine. Okay, great. What gets you to a 10? If they're like, I'm a two, it's like, whoa, okay, let's let, that sounds like we need to sit down and talk about what's going on. What do you need? Where can I help?
00:26:30
Speaker
um It can be anything, in anything across the board, a wellbeing question. It can be a question about, so how, Matt, talk to me about your career development. Like when you think about your career goals and your progress towards your career goals, since you arrived here, how well do you, like how, how comfortable are you with the progress you're making from one to 10?
00:26:52
Speaker
Yeah. There's no place to hide in any of that, right? You've got to give me an answer. And then that gives me an opening. It opens a door. Once that door is open, the next steps are pretty obvious.
00:27:03
Speaker
You ask the follow-up question. You shut your mouth and listen, right? Because that's when the good stuff starts pouring out. You ask more you know curiosity questions, follow-up, learn. And then at the end of the check-in, you they've just given you this opening to provide support or help or encouragement or whatever. You close it by providing support, acknowledgement.
00:27:23
Speaker
That's it. Absolutely. That's it. That's some gold in there. Absolute gold. The reason I paused before was we are we are going through, since the pandemic, we are going through this huge social experiment that we probably won't know the impact for for like a decade.
00:27:38
Speaker
um And you talk around hanging out and community. And I think the Surgeon General in the States talked about this. I've written a a piece in for USA Today on this about actually the health benefits of social interaction, in-person interaction.
00:27:53
Speaker
And the reason I paused is like I didn't want to go down the whole return to office this rabbit hole. um But I think in that conversation, what often gets missed is that there are very good reasons rather than rules to actually bring people together to work for that connection, for that social interaction.
00:28:15
Speaker
and And then all of the other work benefits there might be, but I think that's what's getting lost. There is just like most things at at the moment, there is one polar or extreme and the other. Go to work, don't go to work. And there's always has to be this kind of balance and people are forgetting that actually hanging out with each other is is good for you, physically and mentally.
00:28:37
Speaker
It is. i I'm with you 100%. And what I would say is, I've been i've been talking about this this concern for a while too. and And I think the concern is, for me anyways, that...
00:28:50
Speaker
we are conflating the being in the office or not with the value of being together with people in person or not. yeah And those are not the same things. I can give you a pile of data, a stack of data that shows that pre-pandemic,
00:29:09
Speaker
There was a whole lot of people, I think it's even over half of people, said that they were these are people that were working at the office every day right next to people that said they were lonely at the office.
00:29:22
Speaker
yeah So it's not about being in the office or not. It's about convening with intention. yes And so when you bring people together, if you're going to bring them to the office, then you bring them to the office with purpose, with intention. You design a workspace that fosters their needs, that fosters connection. When you bring people together for you know an onsite or offsite or whatever you want to call it, you design it with purpose and intention around connecting.
00:29:49
Speaker
Because the the magic of it is that if if you invest in... that time and you get people connected, a little bit of time together, meaningfully building face-to-face connection, then accelerates and amplifies your ability to work together effectively when you're not together.
00:30:10
Speaker
Absolutely, and leads to what you were talking about, having those conversations. Those conversations flow quicker, more naturally, and you get to the good and the bad stuff
Parenting Wisdom in Professional Life
00:30:19
Speaker
sooner. So, um yeah, no lot like I say, all always a fantastic conversation with you, and we could speak for hours, but we will we won't. um So I want to go on to my favourite question, as people will know. This is my favourite question. and um Best advice you were ever given, and if it was from somebody specific, share who that was.
00:30:44
Speaker
this This one, it was given to me, i actually don't know where, I don't remember. I wish I could credit this advice because it's been so important. And it was it's parenting advice that actually has been proven to be true in lots of different places in my life.
00:31:00
Speaker
But the parenting advice I was given was never do something once with your children unless you're prepared to do it a thousand times.
00:31:11
Speaker
Okay, yeah. And that made perfect sense to me. Like if you let your kids sleep in the bed with you once, then that sets an expectation. They're going to want to do it every day.
00:31:22
Speaker
It turns out it's true with pets. turns out it's true with all kinds. And then it turns out it's true at work too. As humans, we we think if you did this once or you allowed me this freedom once, then it becomes an expectation.
00:31:34
Speaker
If it happens a couple times, it becomes an entitlement and it's really hard to undo those. So that's that's so what I would say. That's good advice. I'm not a parent, but I'm trying to be a good godparent, auntie, uncle, you know brother, sister, but the system ah brother, brother.
00:31:50
Speaker
um And one of my cousins sadly lost her partner yeah last year. And we've been looking after her children a lot. and She's this year asked us to step in and when she goes on holiday. And I just turned to my wife, Ivy, who I mention lot on here, um and said, if we say yes to this,
00:32:11
Speaker
we are committing ourselves to a decade of this, you know, which we're happy with. But I just wanted you to be clear that once you say yes, you know, do what something wants, it definitely rings true. So we both said yes. And we then joked with my cousin afterwards and said, look, we had this conversation that as soon as we said yes to you, we knew for the next 10 years, the children are going to be dropped off on our doorstep periodically. So...
00:32:35
Speaker
um So yeah, so what's the most important quality, quality, or quality, quality um you that but should be in a leader, in your opinion?
00:32:51
Speaker
That is, wow, boiling it down to one. Yeah, hard. And it could be like your favorite song. It could be, what what do you think today? doesnt and We're not gonna define you by your answer. Sure.
00:33:07
Speaker
I would say, um
00:33:12
Speaker
i think the most important quality of a leader, honestly, based on sort of what the work I've been doing lately and what I've been thinking about lately, I think is kindness.
00:33:22
Speaker
Wow. I think in the world we live in today, kindness is when you can lead with kindness from a place of kindness, um that's pretty powerful. And sadly, it's differentiating.
00:33:37
Speaker
So I'm going to ask you question immediately because on another podcast, um we had care. and of These two traits I totally fundamentally agree with.
00:33:50
Speaker
But how do they go down when you when you're taking that internally? If somebody's listening to this and they want to go to their leadership team and go, look we need to lead with kindness. um Some people are not going to be taken seriously, sadly, by by using that. side So can you can you qualify or give some...
00:34:07
Speaker
help people out when you, when you talk about
Leadership Qualities: Kindness and Responsibility
00:34:10
Speaker
kindness. So there's, it's a fundamental. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and so,
00:34:17
Speaker
boy, that's a big answer. So short version, I would say there's two things. There's understanding what it is we're after yeah or what, what it is that matters. And, and the way I would describe it most purely is kindness.
00:34:30
Speaker
um I think care is probably a little bit better ah more palatable word internally. I think care is easier to work with. When you're doing the work internally, sometimes you don't lead with the words that are that sort of at the core. You got to use words that resonate with your executives or your leaders because, you know, we're programmed to think certain things are work-related and certain things aren't.
00:34:53
Speaker
um So i think care is probably a better one internally because care, you can differentiate. I talk about care in my training quite a bit. And I talk about there's two different kinds of care. There's caring ah about someone, which is really what I'm, you know, when we talk about kindness, that's really like, I care about you as a human, right? If I'm your leader, you are my responsibility. You are placing your you're placing your livelihood and your career in my care.
00:35:24
Speaker
And so i owe it to you to treat that very seriously, to treat you with kindness, to treat you with respect and compassion, and to sort of take that responsibility incredibly serious.
00:35:35
Speaker
The other side of care, though, is sort of caring. um It's care in the sense of of helping you be successful, helping you...
00:35:48
Speaker
um helping you achieve the things that you're hoping to achieve or wanting to achieve. And so in that context, if I care, if I really care about you, Matt, if you're on my team and I see you behaving in a way that is not in your best interest or is not productive for the team or is getting in the way of your effectiveness, then ignoring that is not kind.
00:36:13
Speaker
um Not giving you the feedback is not kind. The kind of thing, Brene Brown says clear is kind, right? The kind thing to do is to give you some very clear feedback because I care.
00:36:25
Speaker
Yeah. Because I care. giving you So if you're underperforming, i need to figure out how to help you with that. if you If we hired you into the wrong position and you're struggling because of it,
00:36:40
Speaker
If I care about you, then I'm going to help resolve that, help you find a different role, help reshape that role, or maybe set you free. Have that conversation with you. It's like, you got to be miserable, right? This is making me miserable. This isn't any fun because you look like you're in misery every day. Let's get you someplace where you can be happy.
00:36:59
Speaker
And I want to partner with you on that. So that's what it, I think that's more, when we talk about it in that context, it's just a way of leading. We're still, there's still accountability in it. There's still clarity in it, but it starts from a position of kindness and care for the human.
00:37:15
Speaker
Yeah. Fantastic. um I could go off on a big tangent there, which I will not do at this time. so Lots lots to unpack. So we usually end with a few fun, short, shorter questions. So I'm just going to flip around a little bit. um What's but your go-to productivity trick if you need to get things done?
Personal Productivity and Motivation
00:37:41
Speaker
um Procrastination.
00:37:45
Speaker
Really? but Yeah. Pressure. I know that I perform best when there are real stakes and real deadlines. Wow. And so if I, if I don't, if I'm not up against a real deadline, it's, it's hard. Or if I don't feel like there's real consequences. And so, you know, maybe it's not procrastination, but I think it's, it uses my inclination towards procrastination. my I know that about myself. And so I find a way to create real um deadlines or real consequences that then force me into a productive kind of spurt?
00:38:23
Speaker
Yes, I can relate to that. I wish sometimes I didn't have to give myself those deadlines. And running an awards business, as well, a part part a part of our business is the awards.
00:38:38
Speaker
A lot of people, I think, to share your ah share your view. They really do leave it to the very last minute of the deadline. Um, early bird or night owl? Early bird.
00:38:50
Speaker
thought that might be the case. Um, whilst you're procrastinating and you need to get yourself fired up for that deadline, what what's, so what's a go-to song that we get out to our Spotify playlist? whats What's, what's a fire, fire you up kind of song?
00:39:07
Speaker
Um, Thunderstruck, ACDC. Okay. Fantastic. I've just got tickets to ACDC in London this July. ah Brian Johnson is back ah singing because he they they got rid of him both of his ears. so um But yeah, um I love that song too. I think that's on the playlist actually. So um favorite film?
00:39:28
Speaker
Doesn't have to be the best film, but the one you just love watching.
00:39:34
Speaker
It's probably a tie between The Matrix, the original Matrix movie and Pulp Fiction. Yeah.
00:39:42
Speaker
Two 90s classics right there. Absolutely love both of those. favorite place and or Favorite place in the world and or where you'd be right now if you could click your fingers.
00:39:56
Speaker
Well, based on how I'm feeling today and what I would love, I would click my fingers and I would be on skis. on top of a mountain probably you know in Breckenridge, Colorado or someplace like that, um skiing skiing downhill, communing with the the universe on top of a snow-covered Rocky Mountain.
00:40:18
Speaker
That sounds absolutely fantastic. and and I think I mentioned this to you. I did a big road trip with my mom in and around hr tech in ah America last year. and We raced home from Moab in Utah, if I said that right, to Denver for our flight.
00:40:37
Speaker
And We just had to stop at Breckenridge for like half an hour on the way back onto into into Denver. so And um it was October and the snow had just started falling. So there's snow peaks and it was it just looked wonderful. i It's one of those places I now have to go back to and spend some proper time there. It looks stunning. So um that's a great place to go.
00:41:00
Speaker
um If you had any recommendation for a guest for this podcast in the future, who who would you recommend?
Podcast Guest Recommendation and Closing Remarks
00:41:10
Speaker
I have a long list of recommendations, Matt. um
00:41:17
Speaker
Boy, there's a bunch um there's a bunch of folks that come to mind, but um
00:41:27
Speaker
off the top of my head, my my new friend um over the last couple of years, Mac Andrews, um she is... um She does similar work to what I do. She works with um early career managers and she is brilliant and um does great work and brings such heart to her work. And so I think she would be a great one um for you to have conversation with.
00:41:54
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, it's been an absolute joy to have you on the podcast. you haven't disappointed with the answers to the questions, I was excited and a fulfilled that.
00:42:05
Speaker
um Is there anything else you'd like to add before we before we finish? No, I think just just to remind everyone to, you know, just remember everybody's going through some stuff.
00:42:17
Speaker
Be kind. yeah If you're going to check in with people, do it with intention and really listen, right? give When you share your heart with others, they'll they'll they'll do it in return. They're often just waiting for somebody to demonstrate they actually care.
00:42:30
Speaker
Perfect way to finish. And I'm not going to add to that. So thank you so much, Jason. Really appreciate your time, your thoughts and that and that finishing sentiment there. So ah thank you everybody who's listening.
00:42:44
Speaker
Really appreciate what you do. And we'll be back again soon with another episode of the Inspire Club. Thanks very much. Bye-bye.