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Melissa Dean says to base assessment on assets.
75 Plays8 months ago
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Dean_of_math
Blog: https://deanofmath.wordpress.com/
Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0YntP8sxBArVYZ8PtK4f7z
Book: https://a.co/d/fHUFxwC
Music by AudioCoffee: https://www.audiocoffee.net/
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to the Learner-Centered Spaces podcast, where we empower and inspire ownership of learning, sponsored by Mastery Portfolio, hosted by Star Saxton and Crystal Frommer. In each episode, we will bring you engaging conversations with a wide variety of educators, both in and out of the classroom.
00:00:21
Speaker
This podcast is created for educators who want to learn more about how to make the shift toward learner-centered spaces for their students, schools, and districts, or education at large.
Network Membership Announcement
00:00:32
Speaker
The learner-centered spaces podcast is now a member of the Teach Better Podcast Network.
Guest Introduction: Melissa Dean
00:00:44
Speaker
We are so happy to have Melissa Dean on our show. She is a high school teacher for grades 9, 10, and 11 in math, science, social studies, and ELA. Previously, she was a middle years teacher with experience as a homeroom teacher, band teacher, and special education teacher. She's also worked as a learning coach and consultant in the area of numeracy.
00:01:10
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The way that assessment is used in a classroom comes to define our learners' identities and shapes their stories, says Melissa. We must also unravel assessment practices to get at the core of student learning and growth.
00:01:25
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Melissa, outside the classroom, loves to read. She's a big Harry Potter fan. She loves to bake, especially sourdough bread.
Authorship and Teaching Philosophy
00:01:34
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And she's the author of a book called Unravel School, Reimagine Classrooms, Reinvent Assessment, and Revive Learning. Please welcome Melissa to the show today.
00:01:47
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Melissa, I am so excited to talk to you. I saw your new book when it went up, and I am also a huge Harry Potter fan. So I am excited to learn a little bit more about your journey. What put you on this path?
Early Teaching Experiences
00:02:02
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That's a really excellent question that I wonder about myself a lot, actually. And I think it stems from an experience I had
00:02:13
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Early in my career, there's sort of two sort of formative experiences I would say that I had. I started my career at a private school. It was a great place to start my career. It was a K to 12 school. It was a small school. I got to know all of the students and all of the staff. It was a really supportive place for a first year teacher. But it was very prescripted with the way marks were decided upon.
00:02:43
Speaker
And I felt very early on that I was being kind of put into a little box. And I had to put my students learning into a little box. And I realized, even as an early career teacher, that I couldn't put learning in a box. And so that sort of just didn't really sit well with me. And so that sort of became an impetus for me to sort of look elsewhere to find a place as a teacher where I could
00:03:12
Speaker
get away from feeling like I had to put my students into a box. And so that was sort of a formative experience for me where I realized maybe I was going to have some different ideas compared to my peers. And then I had an experience as a, as a transitioned from being a high school teacher to being a graded homeroom teacher, um, where I had to teach math for the first time.
Transition to Math Teaching
00:03:38
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And I had never intended to be a math teacher.
00:03:41
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I was going to teach biology and English and math wasn't an area I was particularly interested in as a student or definitely not as a teacher. But then as a homeroom teacher in Ontario, I had to teach mathematics to my grade eight students. And I struggled very much as a math student and had a great deal of difficulty with moving beyond sort of procedural understanding and memorization. And anyway,
00:04:10
Speaker
I found myself setting out on a journey of teaching math to my students the way I had been taught, which is I think the way we default when we become teachers. And I looked at my students one day and the looks on their faces so exactly mirrored how I had felt as a student. And I realized I was doing the same thing. I was still putting my students
00:04:35
Speaker
into little boxes. Um, and it wasn't working for them and it wasn't working for me. Uh, and so after that, I just really set out on a journey to re re discover really what teaching was going to be all about for me. And after that, I sort of sat down on this path of learning about specifically learning about reimagining mathematics education.
00:05:02
Speaker
And as part of that, I became very interested in assessment practices, specifically, again, as it's as it applied to a math classroom to begin with. But now I would say my areas of interest that has led me down this path of really wanting to reimagine and re-understand assessment practices just in general. So those two like experiences were really formative for me as an early career teacher.
00:05:31
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And then I've just sort of carried on with those with my own professional development since then.
Interdisciplinary Teaching Model
00:05:39
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And going back to your bio that was read at the beginning of the show, you do teach a lot of subjects. And that's not so typical that we hear for secondary grades. Can you tell us more about that? Sure. Yeah, so I do teach grade nine mathematics.
00:05:59
Speaker
as a course and grade 11 biology as a course. And then the school that I work in runs an interdisciplinary course that students can take in grade 9 and grade 10. And it is a combination of three of their mandatory credits, their science credit, their social studies credit, and their ELA credit.
00:06:20
Speaker
And so I get to have a group of grade 10 students with me for a longer chunk in the day, and I teach them in a cross-curricular manner using project-based learning and inquiry-based pedagogies and ideas of, and I get to teach them sort of all of these curriculums all together, which is great as far as being able to teach them how ideas really go together. But then at the end, I have to like,
00:06:50
Speaker
tease out the assessment pieces separately, which is a little bit tricky. But it does mean I get the opportunity to really work with students across a lot of different platforms and ideas and crickums and just teaching strategies, really. It's a really interesting experience and it really
00:07:20
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To me, it really gets at what I think learning and education in school really should be about. That sort of understanding that we don't learn things in a vacuum. We don't learn content in a vacuum. We don't learn the idea that ideas are connected. And instead of trying to put subjects into little boxes, as I talked about earlier, I think this opportunity really allows me to really engage in true deep learning with my students.
00:07:48
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So I'm a really firm believer, Melissa, in interdisciplinary learning. I think elementary teachers naturally have the ability to do that since they have their kids in the same room and they teach all the contents.
00:08:03
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So thinking about you teaching all the contents and being able to make those connections, I know that some of the challenges I face when I work with interdisciplinary teams when we're building projects, there seems to be this question all the time of what gets done in what class and how do we break this up so there's equity and kids having time and they're not just doing the same thing in three different periods in a day.
00:08:32
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you know, what does that look like when we try to assess it? Who's doing what part? So what I would like to ask is, you know, when we think about learner centered spaces and what you've described where we can kind of help kids with this transfer aspect of what's going on because you do teach so many different courses, like
00:08:53
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How does a learner-centered space look different for each of those different contents you spoke about? What does it sound like? What does it look like? What does it feel like for kids in those spaces? And is it different because you see them in so many different capacities? Does that make sense? It does. I think the really neat thing for me in this
00:09:22
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in this teaching is I see them sort of, I don't think of seeing them in three separate classes.
Creating Learner-Centered Spaces
00:09:30
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I think of seeing them as one holistic class, similar to when I taught middle years, the same as for elementary teachers when we teach, you know, teaching all of the subjects all day. I don't see them in separate subjects.
00:09:47
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And so that does mean I have to be aware of making sure that each content area, as you said, is given its correct, not necessarily emphasis, but there needs to be a balance. I love that the ELA curriculum where I teach is very broad. And so most of the texts and learning
00:10:17
Speaker
that we do through our ELA curriculum, we do through experiencing the science and the social studies curriculum, in addition to certainly doing some traditional ELA work as well, what you might think of as a traditional grade 11, or sorry, a traditional high school English classroom, what it might look like. But it does,
00:10:41
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Because we use a project-based learning lens, when I plan a lesson, I'm not thinking this is a science lesson, this is a social studies lesson, this is an ELA lesson. It's more about what is the big picture that I want to address for my learners today? And then how am I going to draw them into the learning so that they see themselves in it?
00:11:10
Speaker
I love this notion, this title that you've given, this learner-centered space. That's what I really envision for my classroom, really for all of my subjects, but particularly in my interdisciplinary classroom, because it is such a focus on, a specific focus on project-based learning in that particular space. My other classes, I certainly use a project-based and inquiry lens in those classes.
00:11:36
Speaker
But my interdisciplinary classroom is a team-based, there's three teachers, we all teach the same, have a group of grade 10 students that we teach. It's a challenge to help my learners see themselves in all of the different spaces. They identify very much with what they see as their strengths and weaknesses. But they don't necessarily,
00:12:06
Speaker
They don't necessarily break themselves down in saying, I'm a good ELA learner. I'm a good science learner. I'm a good social studies learner. So it's helping them see themselves as much more of a holistic learner. And I'm always trying to make the space and the learning that we do reflect who they are rather than myself, what I bring to the classroom. Certainly I bring something to the classroom, but I really want it to reflect them. So while I have sort of a big picture idea of what I want us to
00:12:35
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cover or get to. I try to let them, in a perfect world, if I didn't have to battle things like student motivation and just general grade 10 struggles, they would leave the classroom much more than me. But right now it's more of a, it's striking a balance between what I bring to the classroom and what they are bringing to the classroom.
Post-COVID Teaching Challenges
00:13:01
Speaker
I think what you just described, Melissa, is a struggle many teachers are having right now, like the post COVID sort of struggle of getting kids to be involved with their own learning again, instead of just kind of dialing it in, like getting worksheets and just wanting to fill out worksheets and turn them in so that there's some kind of compliance measure that says, look, I did it, so I should get credit.
00:13:27
Speaker
And I think our listeners would be really grateful if you could kind of just share, like how, how do you try to make it more about them when they don't seem to want to take the reins from you when you're handing it to them? Yeah, that's a really, that's a really good question. And it's something that I battle, not battle, that's not the right word. Um, something that I, um, engage with every day.
00:13:57
Speaker
Um, what you described is certainly sort of the default mode of like, I just want, give me the worksheet, let me fill it in. Um, and, and I'll hand it back and then that will be good. And that's what they want to do. Uh, as you said, um, especially, um, coming out of COVID, but also just what, from my experience in the years of teaching grades kindergarten through grade 12, like grade 10 is just particularly a bit of a challenging year for this, but I do find it in all of my classes.
00:14:27
Speaker
And yeah, I'm constantly like handing them the reins and saying, this is your, this is your opportunity to show me what you're learning. Um, how are you going to do it? Um, and they're reluctant. They don't, they don't want to, um, take the reins for me. But one of the things I'm really learning about, um, and have been pondering that I think we overlook when it comes to motivation. And I have just been doing some reading about this. I can't take, um, credit for,
00:14:56
Speaker
coming up with this combination, but I have for a long time thought the way we assess our students is inherently demotivational, which probably sounds like it's not really a word. But I think it's not, the way we assess is not motivating to our learners. And I think we've lost the connection between student motivation for learning and the way we assess.
00:15:23
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students in our classrooms. And so one of the things that I have found when I'm trying to get them to hand to take over the reins of their learning is through a lot of feedback on the learning that they are willing to engage in.
00:15:39
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and helping them experience a win and helping them see that they can be successful. I think one of the mistakes that we make when it comes to assessment and therefore then has an impact on student motivation is we
00:15:56
Speaker
talk about growth mindset all the time. And we say we're teaching from a growth mindset, but our assessment practices are very, very deficit minded. And so no matter what we say to our students, you know, this learning is about you and it's for you and you can take it however you want. They know that at the end of the day, we're probably going to turn around and be like, oh, you did it wrong. Here's all the ways you did this incorrectly. And I think that's had a huge impact on student agency in their own learning.
00:16:25
Speaker
because there's a disconnect there between the way we teach, but then the way we assess.
Asset-Based Assessment Approach
00:16:32
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So one of the things that I have found that has been very, has helped my students be more successful with taking on their own power and agency and their learning is making sure my assessment practices that happen in my classroom are focused on assets, what they can do.
00:16:53
Speaker
And whatever rubric I hand out, whatever learning progression I hand out, students can see themselves in some part of it. There's something that they can do already. They can see that they can be successful. They're successful in this part, or they know how to do this skill, or they are able to show me this learning already. So seeing that reflection of what they can do in their learning as a starting point and then saying to them,
00:17:21
Speaker
Now I want you to take the reins on this learning from wherever you are at in your journey. Let's work together to decide what the next steps are. And then they're more willing to take a step. They already see themselves as being successful. And so then we can get to the point of, all right, this is where I am right now. This is where I need to go next. And then we have a conversation about how we're going to get there in between those, in between those two posts.
00:17:50
Speaker
So that's really been key in, particularly in my mathematics classroom, where students do have, do come with very preconceived ideas about what they can and can't do, whether they can be successful at math or not be successful at math. Having that sense of this is where you are right now. These are the things you can do. Now, what are we going to do next about it, rather than a mindset of,
00:18:19
Speaker
here's all the things that you didn't do correctly or the spots where you missed on this assignment. That's really been a big shift for me and it's really been a big shift in my classroom.
Social Media Inspiration
00:18:31
Speaker
So one of my favorite things about what you put online is your tweets are just so inspiring to a teacher like me who's I'm really trying to
00:18:44
Speaker
to really work on how I'm assessing students and not grading everything and not following the traditional ways that I used to follow. So listeners out there, if you aren't on Twitter, please follow Melissa because she always has these great tips and inspirational things to say. And so you really helped me to go in that direction for asset-based assessment. So thank you.
00:19:06
Speaker
I have some more questions about tips for teachers because I think many of us are on that journey.
Tips for Asset-Based Assessment
00:19:13
Speaker
We're somewhere along that journey of going from traditional to a place where we can be more asset based in our assessment and more whole student focused when we're assessing. And not all of us have the privilege or the benefit
00:19:30
Speaker
of having a classroom where it's integrated subjects. And it's probably more separated into math, social sciences, and then 45 minutes of English, and then 45 minutes of this science. And so what tips do you have for a teacher who might be in a more traditional setting that they could go more in this direction of looking at an integrated approach and asset-based assessment approach? I think the very first
00:19:58
Speaker
thing that you can do no matter what classroom you are in, whether it's a traditional classroom or a non-traditional classroom, whether where you are on your journey is flipping the language you use when you are writing, both thinking about like providing feedback. But I know like for me, the first flip that I made
00:20:23
Speaker
was when I was writing a rubric or an assessment tool, instead of looking at my categories and writing a list of the things that students didn't do in each, like what was missing from each level, I flipped the language to being about what was present in each level rather than what was missing from each level. And that helped me see
00:20:52
Speaker
It helped me see my students in a different way, and it helped me assess their work in a different way. And it opened my eyes to starting to then think about, all right, here's this piece of evidence my student has turned in, whether it was a test or whether it was a project or if we're still doing very, wherever you are on your journey of understanding what evidence of learning looks like, making that first flip to look at a rubric
00:21:21
Speaker
and change the criteria to be about student can do this rather than student did not do this or this was missing. That was where I started my journey and it opened my eyes to then being able to see that when my rubric was more about what a student could do, it made me see that they were
00:21:52
Speaker
also going to be demonstrating those skills in other ways, not just in the piece of paper maybe I had in front of me.
Holistic Assessment Techniques
00:22:05
Speaker
Because I think the next tip or the next step I would say that I would give to a teacher wanting to start this journey is starting to really think about
00:22:17
Speaker
um, your triangulation of data, right? So typically we might be very product heavy and I sort of, if we're in a traditional classroom, um, we tend to be very product heavy. And in, in, in all classrooms, I think we're still very product heavy, but the other parts of that triangle, that observation and conversation looking for ways, you know, to start with, with maybe, you know, two students a day in a period.
00:22:46
Speaker
You know, what can I observe that student doing and jotting a note to yourself or, you know, sitting down and deciding, okay, you know, in this, in this week, I'm going to have two conversations with two different students about what they can do and jotting some notes to yourself, whether or not like you actually like keep that as formal assessment data. I mean, it is, but just going through the process of starting to recognize that you can see what students can be doing or can do
00:23:16
Speaker
in different times of the day, really helps open your eyes to understanding assessment as a whole different thing. We tend to think of assessment as like a noun, as a thing, like my assessment is this piece of paper. But just a simple mind shift of starting to think of assessment as a verb, as something that we are doing with students,
00:23:46
Speaker
making that mind shift can also really be a good starting point. It helps you sort of see things in a different way. And then, of course, sort of another sort of place I would start would be to be thinking about
00:24:05
Speaker
breaking away from giving numbers as feedback, because we know students don't learn from numbers as
Importance of Feedback Methods
00:24:11
Speaker
feedback. They learn from a comment or a verbal comment or written comment. They learn from the feedback and not the number. So that was the hardest change for me, but I would say the most important one would be to start to look for ways. You can record the number in your Markbook for sure if you're,
00:24:32
Speaker
if that's sort of where you're at in your journey, but like leaving it off the student work, because that's gonna start opening conversations with your learners about really what the process is all about.
00:24:45
Speaker
I love so much of what you're saying right now, Melissa. As you know that this is work I'm quite passionate about also.
Acknowledgments to Educators
00:24:53
Speaker
So to that end for our listeners, if you have folks you'd like to shout out who are people they should be aware of in terms of doing this work, who would you like to give a shout out to? I would love to give a shout out to
00:25:13
Speaker
an educator named Tyler Rablin. He is a fantastic resource for rethinking and re-understanding what assessment looks like in across a variety of classrooms. He just released a book called Hacking Student Motivation, and it's all about the connection between motivation and our assessment practices. So he is somebody that I would definitely
00:25:41
Speaker
definitely tell people that if you are interested in really starting a journey of re-imagining what assessment might look like for you, just in general, like what? What does it mean? What is it about? He's somebody I would definitely shoulder tap. And the other person that I would really throw a shout out to is an educator who is, she works as a consultant. Now her name is Natalie Bardabasso.
00:26:12
Speaker
And you can also find her on Twitter. And she also is somebody that has just some really great ideas about the way we use story as part of assessment and re-humanizing what the assessment process looks like. So she is somebody that I would also direct people to. She has a great podcast called the Educrush podcast.
00:26:39
Speaker
And it's very broad in its range, but it is all about reimagining things through story. And so she's somebody I would definitely shout out for your listeners to follow if they're interested in this kind of work.
Online Presence and Platforms
00:26:56
Speaker
So Melissa, we've mentioned Twitter, but are there other places where our listeners could find you and follow you online? Yeah, I have a blog.
00:27:08
Speaker
that is called the Learning Lab. And it is a place where I once a week or so, sometimes more regularly than that, blog about the ideas that I post on Twitter. So usually my blog posts are sort of an extension of tweets that I have written.
00:27:26
Speaker
And so if you're reading my tweets, I guess we still call them tweets. If you're reading my work there on that platform and you are curious to know more about some of those ideas, my blog has definitely become a place where I expand upon those ideas. My blog is hosted at WordPress and it's deanofmath.wordpress.com, I think.
00:27:55
Speaker
with no spaces in between there. You can also find me on Instagram at the same handle as my Twitter handle. But I'm most active on Twitter and my blog. I do have a very tiny little podcast that's called the Dean of Math podcast on Spotify. And there are just sort of three to five minute episodes of just some tips and ideas that I have to share with people. So that would be another place where you could find some information.
00:28:26
Speaker
Right. Well, if you're looking for guests for your three to five minute podcast, Star and I will sign up. Awesome. That'd be amazing. We love to podcast share. So thank you so much for your time and we will put all of those links in our show notes. Perfect.
Closing and Feedback Request
00:28:43
Speaker
Thank you for learning with us today. We hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. If you'd like any additional information from the show, check out the show notes.
00:28:54
Speaker
Learn more about Mastery Portfolio and how we support schools at masteryportfolio.com. You can follow us on Twitter at masteryforall and on LinkedIn on the Mastery Portfolio page. And we'd love your feedback. Please write a review on your favorite podcasting app.