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Extraordinary Brains 21 with Nick Francis
116 Plays3 years ago
Nick, husband of Liz Francis from episode 11, talks to Max about being the only neurotypical in the village, and what neurodiversity has taught him. He's a lovely man, so why don't you tell him so @NickF_1 on the twitter.
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode 21
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to episode 21 of the Extraordinary Brains Podcast. I am Max, and once again, I'm presenting Solo, the second of our three partner episodes.
Spotlight on Nick Francis
00:00:26
Speaker
So interviews with the partners of our previous guests. So this is going to be Nick Francis, the husband of Liz Francis from episode, I can't remember, but look on our website. It'll come up very quickly. There's only 20 previous episodes.
00:00:44
Speaker
Now Liz has diagnosis of autism and was extremely interesting on her view on it, her view on the intersection between her own autism and
00:00:58
Speaker
the difficulties experienced as a mother and so Nick is almost the other side of that coin in a way and has a sort of external view on Liz's triumphs and difficulties. So it's a really lovely chat, relatively short and both of them are very much to the point. Liz's episode still standing as the shortest episode I think
00:01:25
Speaker
And of course, I'm going to make that more likely if I waffle on any further. So without any further ado, it's Nick Francis.
00:01:34
Speaker
Right, hello, good afternoon.
Nick's Journey with Liz
00:01:37
Speaker
So, Nick, thank you very much for joining us, and as we discussed before we started recording, we're really just going to talk to you as Liz's husband, because you obviously have a very interesting life and a deep hint of land and a lot of interests, but you're here as a husband, and I think that's
00:02:04
Speaker
We've agreed that that's fine. But I suppose you're also a father as well. I think that's also going to become relevant and I think we'll come to the boys as well. I suppose just to think back though, if you think about meeting Liz and how it all kind of began, what was the thing that you noticed about her?
00:02:31
Speaker
It doesn't have to be something different, but something you noticed about her when you met her. The relationship moved quite fast, quite, yeah.
00:02:54
Speaker
I think, yeah, one of the first things I noticed was sort of how how much an intense person and I don't mean that necessarily in a negative way. No, no, no. But yeah, just that there was, I suppose, you know, now that now that, you know, we know we know Liz has had her diagnosis, and, you know, hindsight is a wonderful thing, I suppose, almost a sort of a sense of hyper focus on the relationship.
Realization of Neurodiversity
00:03:21
Speaker
So specifically on your relationship, she was focused on that from the start. Yeah, I think I mean, I think it was a bunch of sort of, you know, perfect circumstances. Well, she was a student, I was, I had a part time morning job only. So, you know, but I think, I think, you know, for like the first three, four months or something like that, you know, I think there wasn't a day that we didn't see each other.
00:03:51
Speaker
Um, so, you know, I think it was really quite intense from, from the sort of the get go. Yeah. Okay. And so she was, she quite focused on, this is going to work. We're going to be together. We're going to have a family, that sort of thing from, from very early on in, in the relationship.
00:04:10
Speaker
yeah i think yeah yeah i think within you know i think within three weeks i think of us being together you know marriage was already mentioned and talked about and you know we got engaged after three months um much too which i imagine that she thought was about six weeks too late yeah about well i think it's not where there was a there's a there's a calendar that you were not
00:04:38
Speaker
keep sticking to. Indeed. OK, so things moved fairly fast to start with. They did. When did you become aware of her neurodiversity and how did it make you feel when you first started to think about that? I think I became aware of it probably about the same time as Liz. It was all when we were getting Daniel, our eldest, assessed.
00:05:08
Speaker
Yeah, going through that process. And Liz has always been someone who who likes to do the research and find out a lot of information about, you know, things and, you know, rightly being, you know, our child, you know, was was doing all the reading and then just kept asking me going, Daniel's like that, but I'm like that. No, Daniel does this. I do this. Does this mean I I have autism as well? You know,
00:05:38
Speaker
And so I think it was, it was, it was through discussion. It was like, yeah, yeah, you do do that. Yes. You do act like that. Yes. That is, you know, who you are. That is how you behave.
Challenges with Routine Changes
00:05:47
Speaker
And I think initially, actually, there was a sense of relief, you know, being able to look back over our relationship and look at, you know, various flash points or trigger points or things that we knew Liz found difficult.
00:06:05
Speaker
And this gave us a lot of answers.
00:06:13
Speaker
I mean, without airing dirty laundry, I mean, what are the things that you've noticed, just in general terms, because I think this is helpful for the partners of people who are neurodiverse, rather than specific to you and Liz, but what are the sorts of things that you have noticed that this found difficult, that made sense when you started thinking about her autism? Can you give me some examples?
00:06:39
Speaker
Yeah, one of the big ones was going away. So anytime we went away anywhere, generally the first day and night, possibly even the first two were always really fragile.
00:06:57
Speaker
and emotionally fraught, and particularly, you know, if we were in the way with friends as well, you know, there was generally a bit of conflict. But then, you know, understanding, you know, all of a sudden, you know, the desire for a pattern, for routine, for space, you know, for what Liz calls, I'm going to pronounce this wrong, I think, restalt, you know, this sense of what is normal.
00:07:24
Speaker
you know, when you're not in your house, nothing is normal, nothing is right. So all of us, you know, we were able to look back and go, ah, that is why those never worked.
00:07:39
Speaker
And now we know, you know, so we know when just going away, there are certain things that need to be done to enable a successful transition to a new normal. Yeah, so I think that's one of the big ones that sort of clicked for us.
00:07:55
Speaker
And it's interesting, this idea that you had of Gestalt, the sort of, which I always sort of understand to be just the feel of things, the way things feel around you. And it's a little bit of a difficult concept to get your head around, isn't it? To sort of grab a hold of. But is that sort of roughly what you come to understand by it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
00:08:22
Speaker
And so, you know, yeah, it's it's something that happens, you know, now when we go away, you know, one of the first things that happens, you know, if we're staying, you know, my parents or, you know, go into a hotel or whatever is, you know, the setting up of things that help the area feel normal and feel recognizable and have sort of tangible links.
00:08:45
Speaker
Yeah. And is it specific items, is it, rather than there being a particular layout of things or? Yeah, I'd say, yeah, yeah, specific items, but also just knowing where certain things are. So, for instance, knowing where there are quiet spaces that that Liz can escape to when needed. You know, knowing, knowing escape routes.
Emotional Journey of Autism Diagnoses
00:09:15
Speaker
um yeah just as basic as that yeah knowing where facilities are things like that you know yeah so that's really interesting um so when you came to um daniel's diagnosis and lizzie's diagnosis lizzie's diagnosis came somewhat after that so how did that process feel for you how did it i mean how did it sort of impact you emotionally um
00:09:48
Speaker
Yeah, it wasn't easy. I found it really different to how I did with Daniel. So for Daniel, I'd had a sense that something was different for a while. And so, you know, hearing sort of confirmation from the nursery and from the Ed Sykes and everyone else who was involved, it was almost a sense of
00:10:17
Speaker
relief. Yeah. That explains it. And presumably the potential for additional support? Absolutely. Yeah. Perhaps more regularly in children with the diet. Absolutely. And with adults. Definitely. I mean, with Liz, the diagnosis process was more of a battle. Obviously, she's an adult. So finding the right, the people and the services that would do that.
00:10:49
Speaker
But, yeah, I think I found it more difficult because, you know, rightly Liz then felt more permission and freedom to just just be more who she is, you know, rather than masking or hiding or, you know, whatever.
00:11:15
Speaker
And that did mean, in some ways, there was a change in how she acted in certain ways. And for Liz, it was a sense of freedom. I can finally be who I am. For me, there was a bit of a sense of loss. It was something like, hang on, I thought this was who you are, but now you tell me that that's not, and now this is who you are.
00:11:41
Speaker
Yeah, and she talked about, I seem to remember either on the podcast or off the podcast, I have to say, because I thought to Liz a few times, you know, about some things that she just wouldn't do socially anymore that she used to do, she used to put up with, but she wouldn't do it anymore.
00:12:00
Speaker
And I suppose to you
Adjusting to Social and Sensory Needs
00:12:03
Speaker
that could be interpreted as a limiting of social opportunities. I don't know if that's Yeah, definitely. Yeah, there was that it was yeah, it was this thing makes me feel horrible and uncomfortable. Why would I do this? You know, yeah go into certain social situations where you know
00:12:25
Speaker
you sort of go because it's the right and the polite thing to do. Sometimes not necessarily because you always want to make up the numbers or whatever. Yeah, exactly. Liz is now far more free and willing to be able to go. But why? That's, you know, just like just like both boys do as well. But why? Then you go because it's the right you go. But but why? You know, and obviously, you know, we're now what 10 years down the road since Liz's diagnosis. You know, and so
00:12:55
Speaker
I am far more at peace with that. And I'm far more happy and willing to encourage Liz to be who she wants to be. There are still times when it throws up curveballs for me. And I have to stop and think and go, OK, yeah, that's a societal, normal construct. And that's not necessarily something you have to do. But yeah.
00:13:19
Speaker
Yeah, I suppose, has it been interesting for you to sort of see the world in through that kind of autistic gaze in a way? Has that allowed you to question things in ways that perhaps you wouldn't have been able to if you hadn't had an autistic wife? Absolutely, yes, definitely. I think if I was someone who was just in a neurotypical
00:13:48
Speaker
family. You know, there's no way I'd have done the level of reading or research or whatever. You know, yes, I've definitely got more awareness. You know, I remember Christmas Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse was on TV. And Liz and Daniel watched. I was at work. So I didn't get I didn't get to watch it. They watched it. And I watched it later on the evening. I was talking to I don't know whether you've seen it. Lots of times it's I think it's phenomenal film.
00:14:19
Speaker
But I said to Liz, that must have been an absolute sensory nightmare for you watching it, because it's so colorful and there's so much going on in the film. And there's all these different animation styles going on and constant movement and motion. And yeah, I think 10 years ago, I wouldn't have been aware of that at all. So yeah. She had it a challenge. She will never watch it again.
00:14:49
Speaker
You know, I think it helped that she watched it at home. I think, you know, big screen would have been far too much. Yeah. But yeah, you know, actually, that's a really interesting one because that's a very specific. Sorry, no, no, it's almost deliberately disorientating the animation style of that, and it sort of it brings you in and out of focus in a way that can be is almost deliberately
00:15:18
Speaker
confusing in the way that it manages focus and depth of field in animation. Really interesting. I mean, really fascinating kind of technical achievement, but not an easy watch when you first start, even this neurotypical person. No, no. One of my favorite films of all time. Good.
00:15:46
Speaker
Yeah, so there are still, I mean, I suppose that's sort of really kind of the meat of what I wanted to ask about is there's sort of ongoing challenges of being
00:15:57
Speaker
Actually, probably, you know, a neurotypical person in a neurodiverse household. What is that like? Do you ever feel left out? Do you ever feel that your needs are not kind of, you know, central enough? Yes. In short, yes. There are times, you know, when I, you know, I do have to sit down with Liz and go, you know,
00:16:25
Speaker
Hello, I'm here as well. But yeah, it's not easy at all. And I say this sensory because I'm aware I am not the one member of my family with autism.
00:16:46
Speaker
you know, faces challenges in a world that is not designed for people with autism. Yeah, on the whole. So, you know, I say it all sort of sensitively, but but yeah, there are, you know, each one of, you know, both Liz and the boys have their individual challenges with exotic autism, you know, presents itself differently within each person. So they all have their own
00:17:14
Speaker
unique things that they need to help them in life. And happily enough, none of them are the same. So, you know, for instance, you know, if we go out on a day trip, you know, I know what I know what each of their individual needs are. It's just they're all different. And so then it becomes a it becomes a juggling act of trying to
00:17:40
Speaker
to work through that and support them. And, you know, every morning routine, you know, they all want running, lining up the puzzle. It is it's lining up all the dominoes and then if one of them goes at the wrong time, then it all goes wrong. And so, you know, some days, yeah, for me, it is a day of right. OK, let's just keep all the dominoes in the right place and then let's get everyone into bed and then, you know, let's open a beer.
00:18:07
Speaker
or, you know, let's head into the workshop and do some laving and just get some headspace. I think one of the one of the challenges as well that I found is so many of, I mean, the majority of the resources and rightly so, because statistically, you know, are for, you know, neurodivergent males with neurotypical wives or partners, females, you know, it's not often
00:18:35
Speaker
the relationship is this way around.
Lack of Partner Resources
00:18:39
Speaker
And so, you know, trying to find necessarily, you know, people to relate to or resources that could be helpful hasn't always been easy. You know, there are some that you can flip and you can make them work. But, you know,
00:18:59
Speaker
the resources are there because there's statistics. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's the way round, the majority way round. What's really interesting is what we don't have in this series of interviews, the
00:19:14
Speaker
female partner of an autistic man, which is interesting. We just don't happen to have had it. But that is obviously a really, really common scenario that I come across a lot in clinical practice.
00:19:32
Speaker
So it's interesting because in a way you've mixed in throughout the kind of examples and the thoughts that you've given. You've mixed in unfailingly the light and shade of it. Do you feel like
00:19:49
Speaker
being, having the experience of neurodiversity in your life has really given you kind of gifts or sort of blessings, I suppose, would be my
Blessings of a Neurodiverse Family
00:19:59
Speaker
putting it. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it is very easy to look at all those. How would I describe them? I mean, you know, as we talked, there is definitely an increased awareness, you know. So even when I'm not with my family, if I'm out and about, you know, or, you know, at work,
00:20:19
Speaker
It's given me more ability and more skills to be able to relate to people in different ways and to be able to open up other people's eyes to the breadth of autism and what it can look like and how to communicate and how to relate. Even in things that I do,
00:20:47
Speaker
the website that I helped design and there's various things that I design within my role in IT at work as well. It's become part of my thinking, you know, sensor, sense. Thinking about, you know, how would this be? Yeah, with sensory issues, is this accessible enough? So, yeah, I think,
00:21:16
Speaker
And yeah, I think it gives me a level of empathy as well. And I'm not saying I wasn't empathetic before I met Liz. I know you're saying it gives you a specific empathy for these particular challenges. Yeah, yeah. You know, there's been, you know, a few parents at work that I've been speaking to with their kids who have been
00:21:42
Speaker
been having struggles and, you know, obviously I've couched everything in the, you know, the, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a clinician, et cetera, et cetera. But, you know, here's maybe some resources that you might find really helpful and I get it. And, you know, if you want to come and share some frustrations, you know, then, you know, so yeah, you know, there definitely have been, um,
00:22:08
Speaker
Blessings absolutely. It's not all hard work It is a joy And in fact, it is a joy sometimes, you know, I'm slightly jealous of Liz and her ability to See and say things in black and white, you know, yeah No, I don't want to go to that That's me, you know, yes, I'm tired. I'm going to bed. Good night people in my house or you know
00:22:36
Speaker
You know, just that, yeah. There is that. Simplicity isn't quite the word, is it? Because that makes you, if you describe someone as simple, that's almost insulting. It's a purity in a sense. Yeah. Yeah. That I see in both Liz and the boys in the way that they deal with situations sometimes that make me think, you know what, I would have never dealt with it like that. And that wouldn't have occurred to me.
00:23:00
Speaker
Mm-hmm Different perspective that you can yeah like any perspective you can one can learn to British to not be able to deal with it like that
00:23:12
Speaker
Well, being British is in some ways a bit of a disability of its own. I suppose just looking back and forward now, just to kind of bring towards the close, do you wish that anything had been different? Do you wish you had known
00:23:32
Speaker
of the diversity within your family earlier, do you wish that there had been different process or are you kind of at peace with how it's all played out? I think the only one that I wish would identify as Thomas, our youngest, you know, when, when, you know, he was a baby and a little toddler, you know,
00:24:02
Speaker
our family would say to us, or do you think he's got autism as well? Do you think he needs a diagnosis as well? I'd look at him playing and I'd look at how we play and I'd compare that to Daniel. I'm like, no, he's actually fine. You know, he's a social, Greek areas, outgoing, happy child. And, you know,
00:24:20
Speaker
through the sort of the mental toll of of the pandemic in the last few years it's actually become more and more obvious and apparent actually he really does battle and struggle uh with both as a man also you know we're looking at ADHD for him as well and you know
00:24:37
Speaker
I wish we had picked up on slightly earlier for him, for his mental health, but also, you know, for the the processes that you have to go through to get the support needed. Which are a nightmare, of course. Yes. In terms of Liz, I mean, in terms of Daniel, you know, it was picked up when he was around three. So you know, pretty early in terms of Liz.
00:25:01
Speaker
I think I wish more for her, actually, listening to her stories of school and childhood and the interactions. It's so clear looking back what was going on, but the damage that was done to her mental health and her confidence and her self-esteem through those harmful interactions.
00:25:24
Speaker
is really obvious. And so... It may be more obvious to you than to her, actually, because I think if I remember rightly, she was rather kind of, it was always going to happen the way it did.
00:25:38
Speaker
which is really common reaction with the neurodiverse people we interview, but I think from external perspective, it can become more obvious that yes, there really was things done and said that were harmful here. Absolutely. Yeah, we can underestimate them. No. And how about the future? Do you have particular hopes for the future, for your family, for Liz, for
00:26:05
Speaker
autistic people in general, do you think about that at all and how you want them to go?
Hopes for Easier Diagnoses for Thomas
00:26:13
Speaker
I mean, in the immediate future, the hope for Thomas is for diagnosis processes, etc. to be as painless as possible.
00:26:28
Speaker
I can only apologize on behalf of everyone involved. I do not apologize. It is not your fault. There has been a small pandemic going on. I'm not sure as much. I think that's wearing thin as an excuse. But there you go. OK, fair enough. I mean, I think I see acceptance growing in the world around me.
00:27:00
Speaker
I still think there needs to be more awareness and understanding of autism and what it means and what it looks like. I don't think, I haven't heard people, you know, throw out the old Rain Man phrase. No, fortunately, I think, yeah. But there is still a certain sort of, oh, you've got autism, that means X, Y, Z. Yeah.
00:27:29
Speaker
You know, I suppose, again, you can't blame someone if they're in a neurotypical environment. Why would they know? And also it is very difficult for people to get their heads around the fact that if you know somebody has autism, you actually don't know anything about them.
00:27:48
Speaker
Do you see what I mean? Just knowing that doesn't actually tell you a single thing about their abilities or what they like and how they were going to behave.
00:28:01
Speaker
because I think that's true. I mean, I think it will tell you some likelihoods as to how they might behave and how they might react. It's not going to tell you concretely anything about them. And that is very hard even for clinicians to get their head around because when they say, well, what's the point of it? The point of it is it's a particular cast of mind and a way of processing the world that makes you more likely to react in certain ways. But that's
00:28:27
Speaker
Not the same. No, not at all. Not at all. So there is that. And I think as well, you know, walking through daily life with the kids and with Liz, you do constantly just come across these moments where you're like, you know, this is utterly autism friendly. And I think, you know, certain certain
00:28:53
Speaker
areas of life are starting to learn, you know, there are cinemas who are doing autism-friendly screenings, you know, there are shops that are doing, you know, like autism-friendly hour, but then Liz says, you know, why do autism-friendly hour? Why not just be autism-friendly? Just because you're autism-friendly doesn't mean you're neuro-typically unfriendly. Unfriendly, exactly. You know, I would have no issue going into a shop where there was no music and a slightly lower lighting, you know.
00:29:18
Speaker
It wouldn't stop me going into that shop, but it would stop Liz going into a shop with really harsh lights and horrible music.
00:29:27
Speaker
That's a really interesting point, but there's a financial and economic reason why music and bright lights is the norm within shops. And, yes, I mean, persuading shops to go neurodiverse friendly on a permanent basis will hurt their bottom line, essentially.
00:29:50
Speaker
which is hard to but I think probably particularly in the current retail environment it's very difficult to persuade shops to do, albeit that actually may not hurt their bottom line as much as they might think it does, I'm not an expert on the figures but I think that's the idea is that the reason they they're set up retail works in a certain way
00:30:13
Speaker
Absolutely. It sounds like psychological reasons. Yeah, it's because it makes them more money. Yes. Yes. But yeah, it's not just shops, is it? It's other areas of life as well that just aren't set up to make life easy for neurodivergent people.
Adapting Family Lifestyle
00:30:31
Speaker
So I suppose we could hope that some of that stuff gets better over time, and I think it probably will. It's a slow process, slow, slow process. It is. It's one of the reasons why we moved to doing online food shopping when Daniel was first born, but it's one of the reasons we've kept doing it. Because every time we took Daniel into a supermarket, it would cause a reaction.
00:30:57
Speaker
Yeah, they're highly unsuitable places for anyone who's got any kind of neurodiversity of any kind, because they're so stimulating from a sensory perspective, but also there's wide open spaces to run into.
00:31:12
Speaker
for a child with ADHD. Brilliant, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And all of these things to look at and grab and taste and chew. Yeah, exactly. They're a nightmare environment. It's always something I always want to know
00:31:32
Speaker
I always want to know how supermarkets go when I'm assessing somebody. It's one of my four big flashpoints of the day is the supermarket. Okay, great. Well, I think that's been a really nice kind of trot through your experience. Was there anything that we've missed that you wanted to talk about that we haven't really touched on?
00:31:58
Speaker
I don't think so. I was really concerned coming into this that it was going to end up, you know, me just being grumpy about all things. It's always a danger. I don't feel you've come over as grumpy at all. I'm glad because I'm not. It's just there are times when it is hard and there are times when it's less hard.
00:32:20
Speaker
Yes, but I think that's come over very strongly and I hope somebody who is in your situation or maybe in your situation will listen to this and have a kind of tempered optimism about things. I think that's what I was hoping for.
00:32:36
Speaker
from today. And I really think we've achieved that. I think that's been good. I'm really, really good. We're really, really helpful.
Engagement and Feedback
00:32:42
Speaker
So Nick Francis, thank you very, very much for joining us. If people want to contact you online and reach out, is there a way of doing that? Twitter would Twitter would probably be all right. Yep, fam. But thank you very much, Nick. And goodbye. Yeah. Cheers, Max. Thank you. Bye. Bye. So I hope you enjoyed hearing from Nick.
00:33:06
Speaker
his Twitter handle, which I completely failed to rather awkwardly get, is nickf1. So that's at nickf1. Thoroughly nice man. And I think probably a good episode to play to or show to people who are in a similar situation to him or if you are a neurodivergent person to play to your partner or to share with your partner. So one more of these and then
00:33:36
Speaker
A couple of things in the pipeline and obviously any suggestions, please get in touch with us at extravainspod to make any suggestions at all or to suggest yourself or recommend someone else. But we do have, yeah, I have some exciting plans to do with people who are both neurodivergent but also active in helping people with neurodivergence. Just that kind of doubling up. So that's something to look forward to.
00:34:04
Speaker
And but in the meantime, I'm going to say goodbye So see you in a week's time because I can pretty completely say That's when Natasha Hickling and her mum and her husband will be in your ears. Thank you very much. Bye. Bye