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Extraordinary Brains 20 with Elina Halonen, the Square Peg Mind
128 Plays3 years ago
In the first of our partner specials, Max is joined by Elina Halonen, who is so, so much more than Tane Piper's wife, and can be found at @squarepegmind on twitter.
Enjoy!
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Transcript
Introduction to the Series and Guest
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome to a new episode of Extraordinary Brains. I'm Max, no Tess today, partly because this is part of a three-part series on being the partner of somebody with neurodiversity. And that wasn't an area that Tess hasn't much experience of. So I did the interviews on my own and I'm going to present them also on my own. So I'm afraid you just have to
00:00:42
Speaker
take it from me that Tess is great and she's just doing her mock GCSEs, which is another reason why she's not getting too involved in the episode because she's working hard and pretty exhausted. So today we're going to speak to Alina Hallonen, who we recruited as the wife of Tane Piper from episode eight.
00:01:06
Speaker
But actually it turned out Elena was really emerged as somebody who could talk very eloquently in her own right about managing neurodiversity and negotiating neurodiversity within a relationship and within a family.
00:01:25
Speaker
I thought it was fantastic. One thing you have to know about this chat is that I did not edit it at all, not because I was lazy, but because she speaks so clearly and she never repeats herself and she's just phenomenal. So I hope you enjoy listening to Alina. I think she's tremendous. If you want to catch up with her on social media, she's at Square Peg Mind. Obviously, as always, it'll be in the show notes, but it's pretty easy to find as well. Yeah.
00:01:52
Speaker
Go and tell her how brilliant she is because she really is. All right, I'll see you at the end. So, hello, Alina.
Meeting Tane Piper: A Unique Love Story
00:02:00
Speaker
Thank you very much for joining me today for our very first partner special. And you're not only in the partner special, but you're a special partner for reasons that, an extraordinary partner for reasons that will come.
00:02:13
Speaker
apparent but I think let's just let you tell your story. It's our first one so we'll sort of see how it develops. So you are married to Tane Piper who was a previous guest. I can't remember the episode but I remember we talked about gardening and systems and he stood up throughout and what I wanted to ask you first as a sort of opening gambit is what was it that you noticed about Tane first?
00:02:44
Speaker
You mean noticed when I met him or when, you know, when, about neurodiver, related to neurodiversity? Well, that's, I mean, it's a deliberately open question. So let's, let's, let's ask, let's answer both.
00:02:57
Speaker
Um, I think we have a slightly unusual, uh, origin story as it, as it were. Um, we, uh, we were each other sort of like, he was my backup date and, uh, and he just, you know, he came to the date because I, well, it gets me out of the house. So no expectations all around. Um, that's a slightly longer story and we won't go into that, but you know, that path of the digress. But, um, I think there was just something that clicked immediately and we didn't quite know what it was.
00:03:26
Speaker
it was, you know, and it just it just sort of happened. And, and I think, well, it took several years to realize to come to these, you know, realizations about ADHD and so on. But there must have been something like a similar vibe, because I think for both of us,
00:03:45
Speaker
it was the first time for me that I felt really, really at home with someone. And I didn't really understand what that might've been, what that was until I guess later on with all the, you know, all our understanding of ADHD, then I guess we were just on the same fast wavelength with each other. So, um, which no one else had ever really been. And I guess it might be because, because of ADHD. So.
Journey to ADHD Diagnosis
00:04:10
Speaker
Yeah, we probably ought not to bury the lead any further because the thing that's special about the both of you is you both have a diagnosis of ADHD. There were probably many other special things about the two of you, but that's one thing that I'm particularly interested in. So who got it first and were you competitive about who's had it most? Well, well, well, so the way that the story goes of our diagnosis process is that I thought some, this is probably now
00:04:40
Speaker
Four years ago, I thought that I had, I was depressed. I thought it was like high functioning depression. Like, yeah, that sounds about right. And then, um, we've already moved to Amsterdam and life was quite busy and so on. And then shortly after that, I start to, I came across an article that was about women with ADHD and the more, and then that just kind of piqued my curiosity. And I started reading further. I was like, Hmm, maybe there's something in this. And some here, many years before that, actually.
00:05:08
Speaker
I think it was in 2013, two people separately who were not very close friends, but both of those women had an ADHD diagnosis and adulthood. And they both said independently of each other and not knowing anything about it said, have you ever thought that you might have ADHD and like, no, why? And, you know, obviously with hindsight, like, it's kind of obvious. But back then I
00:05:35
Speaker
I looked into it briefly and then in 2013, NHS didn't recognize adult ADHD. So I went to a GP and they said, well, NHS doesn't recognize that if you want to get an assessment, you have to go private and you have to have private health insurance. And I was like, well, okay, well, I'm not quite sure what the benefit is. And I kind of just left it. I Googled it and there wasn't that much information. And it looked like a laundry list of stuff like, well, that could be anyone. Obviously, not just anyone, it was me.
00:06:05
Speaker
But, you know, I thought that was normal. So, you know, I kind of hadn't thought about it for years. And then, um, very quickly, you know, kind of ADHD, hyper-focused kind of way. I just researched and went, Oh yeah, yeah, this is me. Yep. This is pretty much. I'm pretty sure this is me. Went and got a referral from my, uh, from our GP and, uh, promptly lost all the paperwork somewhere in a bag.
00:06:28
Speaker
And it took me at least a month to actually send it off and get that process started to get on the list of being assessed and wait at my list. And in this time that I was reading about ADHD, every once in a while I was like, oh, look, this is you. Like, look, this is you. And also, this is also you. And he was like, oh, damn, yeah, maybe I should go too. So I actually went and got my referral letter first.
00:06:55
Speaker
but he was a bit more prompt about it and actually sent it off immediately. So I had my referral letter way before he did, but he actually had his assessment before me. So, you know, you know, it's, um, it's a bit of a funny one, but by the time it took, it took at least like four months to, you know, to wait, to get to the diagnosis, uh, like the assessment day, and then a little bit longer to actually, for some reason they took him another month to kind of make a decision about it. It's very strange. Um, and, um,
00:07:24
Speaker
And yeah, by that point, it was crystal clear to me that I definitely had ADHD. And pretty much everyone I know who's since got an ADHD diagnosis, they were convinced by the time they actually got it. But it's still kind of a... And every single one has had the reaction of like, but what if I'm not ADHD? What if I'm just messed up? What if there's just something wrong with me just before they get their diagnosis? And it's the same thing that happened to both of us.
00:07:52
Speaker
It's kind of a, even if you're expecting it, it's still a bit of a grieving process. Every person I know has had that, like they're looking forward to finally getting that validation. And when they do, it's actually still a bit of a grieving process. Like, Oh wow, it is actually, it is actually true, but that is me. And, um, and yeah, so that's kind of what, um, how it went. And then weird coincidence that just after I got the, um, the diagnosis, we moved to a new house in the, say on the same week.
00:08:22
Speaker
And then shortly after that, I stepped away from the business I was running with someone because of really bad burnout. And then shortly after that, sold my shares in it for him and just basically could not work for about nine months. And yeah, so but I think actually, I was I wasn't depressed when I thought I was it was actually ADHD. And, and then I think the burnout was also now that I look back on it, a lot of
00:08:52
Speaker
a lot of it was to do with ADHD in the sense that ADHD made some of those pressures and some of those events and things. And yeah, it made it worse. It's kind of like lighter fuel to a fire. But you know, hindsight is great, isn't it? But that's fascinating, isn't it? Do you think it was
00:09:20
Speaker
ADH. So was it the fact that you didn't understand your own ADHD and you hadn't adapted to it that caused the burnout? Or was it the fact that other people weren't adapting to it? Yeah, a bit of both. So I think I could have been a better person if I'd understood myself. And there's a lot of shame attached to undiagnosed ADHD when you get diagnosed in adulthood.
00:09:44
Speaker
especially we were both, you know, closer to 40 than 30. So, you know, you have a lot of baggage, a lot of behaviors that you've, you know, coping mechanisms, that are not always very useful. And, and also ways of behaving like emotional reactions and things like that. Like, you've received a lot of negative feedback over life, and that creates shame. And it's actually the shame that makes, you know, it just makes everything
00:10:10
Speaker
so much more worse. And there's a feeling, you know, there's deep down, there's a feeling that there's something wrong with you, that you're a little bit broken, and you're always sort of kind of fix it. But actually, there was nothing wrong with you in the first place. It's not like a deep, deep trauma. It was ADHD. And but when you receive that feedback, it just becomes this kind of like toxic loop, at least for me, and I think for a fair few people, if they haven't been lucky enough to have a supportive environment,
00:10:35
Speaker
But with our sort of ADHD journeys, to use a cliche, I've gone a bit like not in step, because I had that time to step away. And I really had to think, I wanted to think about how did I get here? Like, how do I make sure that I never get here, you know, end up here again? And I had time to reflect and change my lifestyle and the way I approach things. So I have that time back then when I was, you know, on sort of a sick leave from because of burnout.
00:11:03
Speaker
whereas Tane's journey has been different. You know that from podcasts. We don't need to necessarily go into that. And he's told his story. But he kind of started the reflection process much later. And it's gone in a different way. I think it's also because I had a bit of a head start.
00:11:24
Speaker
um, my day job is has to do with psychology and decision making and behavior change. And, uh, and I've, you know, my entire career is I've, I've worked in mock research for 15 years. So I'm used to analyzing how people behave, how they make decisions and how they think, and especially how I think and make decisions. So it comes much more naturally for me to, to kind of analyze myself and, uh, to read about that kind of stuff. Whereas I think it wasn't as easy for him and
00:11:52
Speaker
And his journey has been different in that way. But it takes time
Managing ADHD in Relationships
00:11:59
Speaker
to work through those things and there are special challenges in a double ADHD household. One ADHD household has different challenges, different frictions, different conflicts, whereas we have
00:12:16
Speaker
quite unique ones. So tell me, tell me about those challenges because that's what we were going to talk about really is sort of two ADHD people and the journey together and, and what, what difficulties and kind of opportunities that provides, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. So I, um, I have a very useful comparison point that a friend, uh, recently got her diagnosis really recently, like two weeks ago, and her husband is
00:12:42
Speaker
um well does not have a diagnosis but is definitely not ADHD and he's they've been together for quite a long time as well and she she was talking about it just yesterday how he's basically held everything together like he's he's the one who keeps the household tidy like she's you know she's very similar to me auntie you know like you take you take a piece of clothing off and it kind of stays where it is or you know things like that you don't tidy up after yourself uh necessarily the way that you know
00:13:10
Speaker
neurotypical adults might, more like what teenagers might do, what young adults do, that kind of thing. I make fun of that sometimes. Our house looks like two college students live in it sometimes and not two adults. But she was talking about how one, it's very typical for neurotypical, it's common for neurotypical plus neurodiver, neurodiver,
00:13:36
Speaker
particularly ADHD couples, that one side is holding up the fort. And that creates conflict because they often start to resent that. They're like, why am I the person who's making sure that everything happens or tidy up? We also have that, but in a different way because, well, I'll come back to that, but we are in some ways just as bad as each other.
00:14:02
Speaker
that we have similar challenges. Thankfully, we have some, it's like a Venn diagram, but some areas we're both bad at. And then we have some strengths that we can, we can kind of compensate. I think, over time, we've worked out how, how to kind of leverage each other's strengths. It's taken a lot of work, a lot of difficult conversations and a lot of sort of willpower.
00:14:26
Speaker
to a lot of will to work on it together. They are not easy conversations, because a lot of the the behaviors that are challenging are tied up in in years and years of shame about yourself. So and how you are so they are not easy on either side. But it's the only way we can kind of, you know, to make make it work. And because we want to make it work, it seems kind of trivial.
00:14:53
Speaker
No, it seems it seems terrible, you know, it would seem like a real, I don't want to say shame, but like a waste to to not put that work in because otherwise we, you know, we're great together. So but it's just that the everyday life is, is a challenge for both of us. So we, we're still not we're not quite there yet. But we have our own responsibility areas. So Tane's very good at keeping time, probably because not because he's
00:15:20
Speaker
not timeline is because he's more anxious about it. So he keeps us on time to go to places. And I'm, I'm much more sort of relaxed about time and not noticing it. So he's he does that. And I, I do other things that I much more structured out. So I do things like organize all our holidays, I do, you know, if we travel somewhere, I do all the like packing the car because I have a sort of 3d way of visualizing it and things like that. So we, we kind of pick areas where we're stronger, and then just kind of like, I just
00:15:48
Speaker
you leave that to me and just please just step away and I will deal with this and that's that's kind of how we've slowly divvied up areas of responsibility still working on it but we've kind of worked out that for me like I would I find I had this I had this realization some months ago that
00:16:08
Speaker
it's almost like we need to divvy up the task. Usually the ADHD advice or how to get chores done is pick a room and just split the responsibilities by room. Nah, it doesn't work for us that way because each room will have tasks that one of us finds more difficult or challenging. And the way I describe it is that there are some things that I experience more friction in doing
00:16:38
Speaker
and he experiences less. There's two factors to it. One is how much friction you experience in doing that task and how motivated you are to do it. How much does it bother you? So things like I experience a lot of friction in doing the dishes because there's something sensorially
00:16:59
Speaker
yes off-putting about it he doesn't and he's more motivated doing it i could just much more easily turn a blind eye but there are some that you know i don't know it's just a you know something about it whereas there are other things that i experience less friction in in cooking it's not that i like it or i find it easy i just find it less challenging than he does this function concept is an is a useful one isn't it
00:17:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's, you know, it's not liking it. It's not disliking it. It's just like, a lot of things in households have friction to like, because they're boring, like, let's face it, most household controls are inherently boring. Yeah, they're really boring. So nobody wants to do them. But we have to because, you know, otherwise stuff.
00:17:40
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Well, we do actually for for, you know, a real marriage saver is having a cleaner who comes by and just about keeps on the right track, mostly because the day before she comes over, she's coming, or the usually the morning, there's a blind panic of an hour of like, she's coming, we must make it at least, you know, let's clear up stuff so she can do her job. And it's always a bit of a panic. And it's basically it's the same thing. There's like a take talk video like
00:18:08
Speaker
you know, the it's Connor, Connor the wolf and it's like he has he talks about the system that get a friend friend to call that he's going to come over in 30 minutes and he cleans his house in 30 minutes because the panic that someone's coming over. And it's the same thing that the cleaner she's coming
00:18:23
Speaker
And she's like blind panic, geez, someone's coming over, we need to tidy up. And that's a good incentive. So mainly it's kind of like, you know, self-imposed sort of whip to get us to tidy up at least enough so that she could do the, you know, the basics of like the things that we hate the most, like cleaning the floors and
00:18:40
Speaker
and bathrooms, because that will never get done. It's just like a cluster of friction that it's just like, oh, it doesn't get done. And you've got this friction Venn diagram and the things in the middle, of course, you've got to type it and you need someone else to help you in. Yes. And then she does, you know, she does that and it's kind of like, well, what's the big deal? People ought to take away and that's basically getting someone to cook for you. So what is the big deal about getting someone to cook? You know, it's just, it's just, it's just something that keeps us vaguely to get, you know, us as in, not us as couple, but us
00:19:10
Speaker
as human beings, keeps us together, that we, you know, keep a certain level that is not, you know, chaos, absolute chaos, there's a little bit of chaos in the house always, where, you know, we're just four agents of chaos, like our dogs create chaos as well. So we just, yeah, we just laugh about it because it's like we have two toddlers in the house, even though we don't, they're just like, well, they're kind of furry toddlers on four legs.
00:19:34
Speaker
because yesterday I found a flip-flop next to my bed, just one, just one, a garden flip-flop next to my bed. Why would there not be one? Yeah, why would there not be? The reason it's there is because one of them picked up a flip-flop and it's just to carry around a house and sometimes you usually only find one shoe, the one that you want, the pair of shoes you want to wear, it's like there's only one, where's the other one? That I could be in a garden, I found one shoe in a garden recently
00:19:58
Speaker
could be under the bed. Who knows? You put a nice blanket over the sofa and one of them pulls it down because I want to lie on exactly this blanket. Wonderful. That's great. Thank you very much. I think that's led us to work very hard at accepting. I've said that it's been easy. It has not been. It's been a lot of work to accept that our life is always going to be
00:20:26
Speaker
a little bit chaotic, and we have to stop beating ourselves up about it, you know, because it is what it is what it is. But it's also we have a lot of fun. It's now life is never boring in our house, pretty much. And it's just like, is it worth is it worth getting worked up about it? Or is it just like, you know, the I don't know exactly what the a statement is, but it's like, you know, give me the serenity to accept the things I can't change. And serenity is really a good word, like just kind of like
00:20:54
Speaker
Okay, well, our house is always going to be a little bit higgly-piggly. That's just what it is. And it takes sort of weekly, you know, mantras of exceptions that it is what it is. And we just deal with it. So is there a little bit of a process of sort of examining and rejecting other people's
00:21:15
Speaker
expectations or maybe even expectations that you've internalized from your maybe from your your upbringing of how you need to how to adult. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. And that's really, you know, the diagnosis is a starting point. You think that it's like, oh, it's all clear now. No, it's not. It's like peeling a never ending onion of
00:21:37
Speaker
stuff that you didn't like. Oh, okay. Oh, there's another layer of stuff I haven't done I need to deal with. That's great. Wonderful. I thought I thought I've done here. No, it just keeps you know, it gets it gets a bit less emotional, it gets a little bit less, you know, traumatic as you keep feeling it, you know, like the little layers are, you know, not as bad.
00:21:56
Speaker
But there's definitely an unlearning process of, of, you know, the feedback that you received your entire life and people like you have family members who've liked to make fun, like jokes about how you're a bit of a messy person and it's like, yeah, but also, you know, we do a lot of, it's like accepting that we're an ADHD household, we start projects and we do stuff and we, you know, we have a lot of things going on.
00:22:21
Speaker
Like, unlike my, you know, my older sister, I have two older sisters who are quite a lot older than me and they're just different kinds of people. She, you know, I just have to accept that you do fewer things in life and you spend more time keeping your house tidier.
00:22:38
Speaker
I know, because we do a bunch of stuff, you know, and I have other interests, like it's what, you know, it's really led me to challenge things like, so why exactly do you need to fold sheets? Like, who cares if your sheets are a bit, you know, wrinkly? Who cares? They will stretch when you put them on the bed. Who cares? Just roll it up and put it in a box and, you know, no one else sees it. I don't, you know, if my mum, when I was little, she would actually iron them or bangle them and make them all straight.
00:23:07
Speaker
Why? Why do I care? Just put them in the box and it's fine. And it is what it is. Just pick your battles. It's an ongoing process of letting go of things that you have carried, these internalized expectations. Just let it go. Just let it drop. And I think I've made, we've both made quite a lot of progress in the past two years, I think.
00:23:37
Speaker
And, um, and life has become lighter, certainly, but I can, I can easily imagine, you know, uh, that it can, I mean, it's easy to say afterwards, like, Oh yes, we've gotten to a good plate. You know, we've gotten to a much better place, a good place about it, but it is a lot of work. And if you're not willing to, if there's kind of like, if you have resistance towards doing that work, or if one of you isn't as committed.
00:24:02
Speaker
it could be a real, you know, it can be a real torpedo for a relationship and a marriage. So yeah. So I suppose that that's something that just sort of occurs to me because you've got, it's always the same, the way in relationships, isn't it? That sometimes one person is sort of carrying it a bit. Sometimes another person is carrying it a bit. There's fluctuating levels of energy and not even
00:24:29
Speaker
commitments the wrong word, but how much they've got, how much people have got to give varies over time. Yeah. And I suppose in an ADHD relationship that might be exaggerated or amplified because my experience of ADHD people was one myself and working with them is that one of the things that we have is, is, is a kind of boom and bust in terms of energy sometimes. Yeah, definitely. There, there is that boom and bust and kind of like, uh, you know, peaks and troughs, but I think, um,
00:24:57
Speaker
So we are our expression, like our ADC through us, I call them a cluster of traits or expressions.
Exploring Dual Diagnoses
00:25:06
Speaker
I think any expression of ADHD is probably a good way. I don't want to call them symptoms because, you know, yeah, I think how, how, how it expresses itself in us and how it manifests in our behavior and our is, is slightly different. Tane as a tane diagnosis is predominantly hyperactive and mine is combined.
00:25:24
Speaker
Now, I actually in the past past year or six months, I've started to suspect that I might also be, you know, I might also qualify for autism diagnosis. It's very difficult to say because they are only recently the DSM was adapted to to kind of
00:25:42
Speaker
allow for a dual diagnosis. So there's practically no research, practically no research at all, especially for women who might be both. Because, you know, as you can imagine, it just obscures a picture. So I'm much less hyperactive than he is. Compared to other people, I am perhaps more active, but I'm much less hyperactive and restless than he is. I would say mine is more internalised as it often is for women.
00:26:11
Speaker
But I also have, I also have more of, I don't know, it, I tend to take on the project manager role in the house. And it is difficult because it's kind of, I can, I can take it on, but then I can't keep it up. And it just is that becomes that kind of boom and bust of like, we're gonna, we're gonna get stuff done.
00:26:35
Speaker
And then I lose the momentum because it's not really my job to be a project manager. You know, it's like, it's like, I'm not your mom. That kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's, it's, I'm very, very aware of that, that dynamic and always fighting against that. But it's at the same time, it's like, well, you know, we do also like, this is not to dismiss attain in any way. He has his own responsibility areas that he deals with very well.
00:26:59
Speaker
And also he deals with like, you know, I'm not without flaws at all. He deals with all the bills and stuff because I've, I'm, I'm not very good at that. So he takes control. Yeah, he manages a lot of that. And like, you know, if, uh, if it was up to me, our car would never be maintained and it would just probably fall apart, uh, very quickly. So he does, he does a lot of stuff like that, but there is a lot of like overall life projects.
00:27:24
Speaker
that have, that are kind of just like, just a cluster of stuff that you don't necessarily want to do, but it has a long-term impact. So let's say things like multi-stage projects, like, well, we want to replace our fireplace and put in a, like take it out, take it down and put in a, you know, a different kind of like, you know, one of those wood burners that are more efficient or, you know, uh, planning a house extension or a decking in a garden or things like that. For projects that take our kind of
00:27:52
Speaker
Uh, you know, it's not inherently interesting, but you know, kind of an adult thing to do that, you know, enjoyment to our joint lives. It's a joint project and you know, things like that take, um, if someone doesn't take charge of like, we need to plan this and get it done and keep you on track, it doesn't happen because we're both ADHD.
00:28:13
Speaker
You know, I'm fully aware of that. So last year we had these kind of like family meetings where we had magic whiteboard all over the, you know, and we had them maybe once a month or something, and it did get stuff done. We were like, okay, let's, we've tried different systems. It's kind of fallen by the wayside as these things do, but it worked for quite a while, for a little while that we had sort of like, let's put everything we think we need to do. And let's put them on magic whiteboards and then organize them. And I'm quite good at facilitating that because it's part of, you know, it's kind of part of my work.
00:28:43
Speaker
But then, yeah, but also it's kind of like we need to find a system of taking responsibility, you know, responsibilities and making sure they happen. But it's not easy because, like I said, if one of us doesn't keep it up, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't get kept moving. And because we're slightly time blind, it will just slip by, slip by, slip by. And we, you know, imagine the dogs are useless at doing their jobs that, you know, I mean, do they even attend the meetings?
00:29:12
Speaker
They don't. They don't attend the meetings. Or when they do, they complain, like, how long is this going to take? When are you going to take me out? And yeah, I know, it's totally useless. Yeah, their job is mainly to, well, actually, their job is to look prettier, keep us entertained, and take us out. Actually, they are very good at dragging us out several times a day. And because otherwise, we're two bookworms, or computer worms, or whatever. And we would just not get out of the house. But because you have two all with the dogs,
00:29:42
Speaker
they don't actually care one bit, whether you don't want to go or not, they will make it really good. And are you people for whom exercise is important for your ADHD? No, God. We're aware that it would be a good idea. No, not at all. When you've exercised, do you notice that your ADHD is better? Because it's always said that it would be, but I'm not convinced it is for everyone. I'm just interested what you're doing. I don't think so. I am not convinced either.
00:30:12
Speaker
when I say exercise, we take them for, well, basically spending time outdoors, I would not call it like exercise, exercise, in a sense. Sure, sure, like time outdoors, moving your body. Yeah, I think it makes a difference for our mental health to get outside and kind of like switch off and there are the kinds of dogs that they will definitely make sure that you're in the moment. The second you kind of like focus on something else, like, I don't know, your phone, they will be there like, hey, you're with me, with me? Where did it go? Where'd you go?
00:30:42
Speaker
And they are very, very intense in a way, like making sure that we're present, which is brilliant. That's one reason why I really love the kinds of like quite intense dogs that we have. It's not for everyone, but they're very good at keeping you in the present because they're immediately, you know, there you kind of switch off. They're like, hey, back in the room, please. Right here. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm here. I'm here. I'm here.
00:31:06
Speaker
So, um, they're good at that way, but, um, is exercise important? Well, I'll give you, I'll answer with a, with a story that we, uh, in the beginning of the first lockdown. So this is like, we're coming now to two years ago and all the gyms and everything close by, well, we must exercise. So we bought a cross trainer. Now I think with the dump time times it's been used with the fingers of one hand, not two hands. Yeah. One hand. That's how many times it's been used. And because.
00:31:35
Speaker
As useful a cross trainer would be, you know, like we both sit around, sit, a lot of jobs are sitting down. It'd be really good. Yeah. But yeah, but it's also really tedious. Like it is so tedious to me that I would need to both read and read a book at the same time as listening to music pumping at the right speed to keep me going. And it's still really difficult. It's like, I can't think of any, it's just like almost like, you know,
00:32:00
Speaker
Yeah, it's an emotional rash. Just think about it's like, oh, God, you know, the one time I made it went to the gym, but I still when we saw the gym memberships that we, you know, basically paid and never went, you know, I went there with that and forgot my music or my phone was I think my phone was too low battery. And and I had to spend 10 minutes on an exercise bike without music. I read everything that I could see in my sight. And I was like, I am so bored that I feel like I'm crawling out of my skin.
00:32:27
Speaker
And it was like seven out of 10 minutes was like that. And it was, the boredom was almost physically painful. It's hard. It's hard to explain it to anyone who's kind of like, hmm, happy to say, no, absolutely not. Like that is, it's just, it just can't, cannot be done. So, and it's that almost pain of boredom that people, non ADHD people don't understand. And it's really important. Yeah.
00:32:51
Speaker
I remember, I don't know if you've heard of the QB test, it's this incredibly tedious assessment that is deliberately tedious. I have. Now I'm not, I'm not a devotee of it by any means. I think it's got some quite significant flaws, but, um, I remember doing it and it being painful. I'm absolutely painful. That was the point at which quite a long time before my actual diagnosis, I thought, okay, right. Uh, you know, maybe, maybe this is something I need to look into at some point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:20
Speaker
Yeah, it's very difficult to explain to others. And it's kind of I'm a bit of a strange case of ADHD in a sense that because my work, work has to do with psychology. Anyway, I am, I'm used to reflecting on my own behavior and on my own factors and things like that. And I remember when I like it was my, my diagnosis process or assessment process was pretty horrific, I would say.
00:33:49
Speaker
Um, uh, very, very unfortunate that we had to go to that organization. I now, I've now found out that other organizations are better. So it's not a, you know, a negative comment on the Dutch healthcare system at all. But, um, I, she, my assessor actually said to me, because I had read about, I'd watch Russell Bartley's, uh, you know, video videos on YouTube and Russell Bartley, the ADHD researcher. Yeah. And, um,
00:34:14
Speaker
And as it happened, I was going to America for a work conference. And coincidentally, there was an ADHD conference just after that, a few days after that, in a town near where I was going. So I extended my trip. It was a work trip. It was my business. And I went to that, and I told her that. And she said to me that, and I'll never forget her face of like just, I don't know if I call it, it was a bit of a shock that she said, I was kind of,
00:34:44
Speaker
attempted to write into a report a bit of OCD, because of how, you know, obsessively you've looked into ADHD. And I was I was really shocked. Because it's so much wrong with that. That's you never say that. Yeah, you would never say that someone has like physical illness. Yeah, exactly. And I just thought like, wow, you are terrible at your job. Like you really don't
00:35:10
Speaker
Like seriously, I've waited six months for the diagnosis. Like, what do you think I was doing in the meantime? Like, of course I'm educating myself.
00:35:17
Speaker
But apparently not everyone does. And, you know, that's that's obviously if you are somebody who finds it very satisfying and comforting to know everything about something and then and then you subsequently think you might be on the autistic spectrum. OK, that might be something. OK, fine. Yes, it is a completely different psychological phenomenon. And I hate it being bandied about because it it's so unpleasant to have and it being kind of.
00:35:43
Speaker
just kind of thrown into other things is infuriating. And why wouldn't you want to understand what's going on with you when your waiting time is like six months or so? Why would you sit around? I mean, some people might, but I didn't. So I don't think it's very, very, very strange.
00:36:02
Speaker
Anyway, and I've always been quite analytical. I've been, I read some years ago that a lot of girls with ADHD and also a lot of girls, autistic girls, they, so it's kind of said that autistic boys become little professors. And actually, a lot of, a lot or, you know, anecdotally, a lot of girls with ADHD or autism kind of turn to, when you don't understand people,
00:36:31
Speaker
you make it your life's job to understand them. So you study psychology and you end up in that area because it's like, you don't, you just instinctively just don't understand how people work. So you're fascinated by it. And before you know it, it's like, it's your job. And I'm like, Oh yeah, that's me. So, uh, you know, I've made it my life's work. I've been interested in psychology since I was a teenager. So I, you know, I'm now 41 and I, I've been reading psychology books.
00:36:58
Speaker
of different kinds at the beginning, more self help and things like that, since I was 15. So, you know, I have, I have had quite a lot of time to analyze myself. I didn't know it was ADHD, but I still I've gained a lot of tools in the in the process, which have actually been helpful for for both of us for Jane and me, not that it's always easy to hear some of those, those
00:37:22
Speaker
encourage as much helpful things from your partner because it could be quite annoying. Because you obviously have insight and understanding and lots of knowledge about psychology. How do you avoid being his therapist, I suppose? Well, it's a general question for a relationship, of course, but given your position.
00:37:43
Speaker
well being being very aware of that and kind of saying this is not my job you need to speak to you know need to find a professional speak to and he has so he's um he's always been very willing to to do that work uh for himself with himself i don't know what the right expression is but uh but he has been very um open to that and put a lot of work into it so that has been super helpful and i think if you have if if one of the part of the agency partner uh
Working with an ADHD Coach
00:38:13
Speaker
in a
00:38:13
Speaker
you know, mixed relationship isn't, then that can be super difficult. It's not easy, you know, it's, it's, I, many times it has happened that I've told him something like, I think that's what that is. And he was like, Hmm, no, I don't think so. Or just like, just kind of like, fine, whatever. And then three or four weeks later, he's, you know, when he was doing some sort of counseling,
00:38:38
Speaker
And he comes back and tells me something. I was like, yeah, I said that. I've said that before. I was like, I was like, yeah, 150 euros, please. Or whatever it's like to give. Yeah, to give time for it to catch up. I was like, I'm not a professional, but I have read enough stuff for myself that sometimes I'm like, yeah, that's probably what it is. And you can go and, you know, here you go. You could go find out about it. And he comes back saying, you were right. I was like, yeah, I sometimes have. But unfortunately, it's very common with
00:39:07
Speaker
So we also have a coach who is both exec coach and ADHD coach, and he also has ADHD. And he coaches both of you. Yes, he does. I'll come back to that. Yeah, and we kind of laugh about that. It's very easy to solve other people's problems and not your own. So, you know, I am quite good at helping him, but there are in many cases like, ah, well, you know, I've tried a lot of things and I can't solve some of the things that I have. I have tried.
00:39:35
Speaker
because I've also my job is to think about how to change people's behavior. I have a big sort of backup, you know, toolbox or a library of techniques that you could use. And that's I'm surrounded.
00:39:49
Speaker
constantly by these like, this is how you change other people's behavior. Sure. Yeah. But a lot of that does not like it's on a premise of neurotypical decision making. So things like, oh, you know, this is how you know, piggyback create new habits by piggybacking on, on routines. I'm like, watch routines, routines. Yeah, watch routines. It was a revelation to me to listening to a podcast with actually people who are like, behavioral science professor and, you know,
00:40:17
Speaker
researcher. It's like, yeah, so apparently people have fixed routines about the order of when they shower and brush their teeth. So it's what it's either a shower first, and they brush their teeth the other way around. Like, what people have a fixed pattern, you have, you don't have to write on a bathroom mirror to remember to brush your teeth. You know, like, what, but I can't say that out loud in like a professional setting, because it seems so weird, unless you understand ADHD, like
00:40:41
Speaker
Yeah, it's actually, you know, self care is one of those things, I guess I am a competent adult, I can do lots of really complicated things, except, you know, remembering to, you know, put moisturizer or, you know, things like that is surprisingly challenging. But yeah, so it's, it's a lot of things that I see that are techniques for changing behaviors, like, yeah, that's not gonna work. Nope, that's not gonna work. And I can tell you why, because it's predicated on neurotypical brains, and now I understand the difference.
00:41:10
Speaker
Yeah, but yeah, so we have a, we both, we have a coach who works with both of us. And I, I found him first. Like I thought, maybe I, I, I, so I've been working for myself for two years. And I realized at some point, maybe a coach would be quite good to think about where I want to go and so on. And I had one coach first, but she didn't really understand ADHD. So she couldn't help me with things like productivity and like really hacking that I've tried a lot of things, as you might imagine.
00:41:39
Speaker
And nothing really works. So I thought, I'll find someone. And I found Alex first. I can't even remember. I did a lot of looking into internet wormholes and trying to find someone who is, how should I say this, advanced level ADHD coach. Because a lot of ADHD coaches are for people
00:42:02
Speaker
were freshly diagnosed. And it's kind of like you're working out stuff like, eh, I've already been there. And we spoke to one first. And it was like, Oh, this is too basic. I've worked out all those things by myself already. Because I have had time to think about this. I've, you know, it's been it was, you know, two years since diagnosed, like I've had nothing but time to think about this. And so I'm really, I'm really happy that we found Alex, because he was first an executive coach.
00:42:28
Speaker
to work working in businesses and that kind of stuff, working with high level execs. And then he got his ADHD diagnosis and then added that qualification on that capability to his work. So he has a wider toolbox than someone who was working in something else. And then I had an ADHD diagnosis, wait, I'm going to be an ADHD coach. And their toolkit is much, much, much smaller than, than his is. And so I started working with him. And then I said, Tate, I think you should also work with him.
00:42:57
Speaker
And we have and it's been, it's been really, really good, because we focus on the kinds of things that I suppose in quotation about normal people would work on, but with the understanding that some of those techniques don't work. And because he's also used to himself, we have a better understanding, like, you know, I don't have to explain as many things that I did to the previous coach was otherwise perfectly really capable for us to answer, but not when it comes to
00:43:25
Speaker
solving some of those ADHD challenges, like obviously off the top of my head, can't remember anything right now, but I think it's been, we also talked to him about different things and this year we've worked with him for six months now. We had a little reflection before Christmas and this year we're going to have our separate sessions, but also joint ones because
00:43:44
Speaker
our personal life or our life together spills over into our working labs and vice versa. Of course, I mean, we are now working at home all the time. Here's where my work is remote. So we have our own offices, but the you know, organize it the same challenges of
00:44:01
Speaker
um, running a household because running a household is like running a business. It really, it is, it is like, you're just, you know, uh, a marriage, like running a business, the business of your life together and all that kind of stuff. And so, and you're kind of, you know, as a, you know, as a business in terms of like, you're investing in your life together could be like, you know, doing house improvements and, you know, investing in your own health, your joint health, because that is kind of long-term returns of your, for your life together.
00:44:29
Speaker
So there are a lot of things like that. It's like, it's because I have a business background, I, you know, maybe someone thinks it's called hearted to think of it that way. But it really is like, we are kind of, you know, when we don't look after our own health, we're, you know, we're eating for eating from the loads and sense that we're not investing in a long term, good quality of life together, you know, and, you know, thinking about how we improve our house is investing in our long term life together.
00:44:54
Speaker
But you know I understand that but on the short term it's hard to get those things done. To take a relatively hard nosed attitude to something like that though in a way takes some of the pressure off, takes some of the kind of again expectations off of how you know how marriage you know needs to be a sort of wonderful dream and actually if you take a relatively practical approach to it actually some of those some of those kind of
00:45:19
Speaker
some of that kind of distinct, the kind of distress from the difference disparity between reality and the kind of ideal as portrayed in the media actually some comes away if you just accept that to an extent you're running a business together.
00:45:36
Speaker
Well, yeah. And I think, um, I think it's also, if the business isn't running smoothly, then that eats into your energy and that, you know, that's all the energy that's leftover for all the good stuff and all the fun stuff. But if, you know, if you're, if you have a really disorganized, you know, if the really inefficient organization in your, in your business, then that takes up, you know, you're wasting energy and running the household business, that energy that could be going for that is actually,
00:46:04
Speaker
the nice part of your relationship and a relationship with someone. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, running it more efficiently. And, and also the other thing is that when you don't, when stuff is like when there's unfinished business, unfinished stuff, like unfinished projects, or, you know, things like, Oh, I should be doing that. The thing with an ADHD brain is that it kind of hangs around those incomplete incompletions hang around.
00:46:29
Speaker
you carry them around and then they kind of like dredge you know dredge some of the shame with them and suddenly something that doesn't need to be a big deal it actually starts to get very heavy and finding a system that you know kind of as you say like takes
00:46:43
Speaker
If you approach it like we need to, you know, there's nothing personal. We need to run this household like it's a business. It takes it out of, you know, it's not personal. It is something that we're working on together. And we can, you know, we can discuss things rather than people. It's not like you never do this. Like, well, we need to get this done. What is the best way? Yes, this stuff needs to get done. The reality is that we both hate doing it.
00:47:06
Speaker
you know, how are we going to get it, you know, how will we get this done? And also, it's like this thing is like, I'm maybe like, maybe there is a gender, gender role, which I'm painfully aware of that I, I have internalized some of those expectations that it is a, you know, I don't, I can't say that I support it. But it's an internalized thing that's very hard to fight that the woman runs the household, like, yeah, that you feel you kind of I'm aware of even if I'm aware of how ridiculous it is,
00:47:36
Speaker
a household's disorganisation is always judged on the woman. It always is. It will never be judged like, oh, he must be disorganised. No, it's like, why? And it's like, we're both, you know, we're both busy professionals. It is not my job to run a household. But and he doesn't think that either. But in reality, the internalised, you know, internalised beliefs in me mean that I'm much more sort of like likely to do the grudge work.
00:48:04
Speaker
Because it's just like it just drives it. It sort of drives you whether you want it or not. And then, you know, meta level of being annoyed that it does. And I end up doing it's like, this is not right. I don't want to do this. And he's like, Well, I don't want to I don't want you to do either. It's like, fine. We're in agreement of that. But how do we practically solve this?
00:48:22
Speaker
And that's kind of why we're working with, you know, we're not working with a therapist for a reason because it's not an emotional thing. It's a really, really practical thing. And that's why we're working with him together. And I would say that there are some transferable skills. Like if we learn how to do these really boring things that are important in our personal lives or in our household, then that has a spillover effect to our skills in working life, like doing things that we do a better job at sort of, you know,
00:48:50
Speaker
compensating for in a working environment that it doesn't impact our work. We do our job as well, but there is possibly a bit more of a, how should I call it, sort of a, it could be an energy drain because you can get something done well or project management at work, but it takes more energy than it would for other people.
00:49:12
Speaker
Or you kind of like, you know, the proverbial duck that pedals hard, you know, at the surface looks for sailing, but actually you're what you're peddling way harder than anyone else. So I think there's, you know, I can, I sort of sense that there is a, you know, positive spillover effect. If we learn to do these grudge stuff in our house, um, in our joint lives more efficiently with that, with less emotion, that's kind of, uh, it sounds, it sounds, maybe it sounds a bit horrible.
00:49:40
Speaker
But I've learned over time that the less emotion you learn to attach to or like unattach emotion from stuff like that. And it makes it easier to do because you should attach emotion too. So don't put it on the housework. Or things like that. It's just household business. It's not personal. We need to get this stuff done. Who's going to get it done? And how are we going to divide this?
00:50:10
Speaker
advocate of like just take the emotion out of it and just approach it as practically as possible easier said than done but you know i think that's that's something that we try to do that yeah i don't know we're doing that but yeah yeah i just wanted to go back to another point you made about we're sort of about the internalized gender stereotypes or i mean how are you do you ever get judged by friends or family either for
00:50:38
Speaker
either in a gendered way or in a neurotypical way. Do you see what I'm saying? Do you ever feel that your relationship to other people who are not this kind of ADHD household is affected by your ADHDness, your collective ADHDness? I would say not really. But the reason for that is probably because, well, first of all, we live in a different country to both of our families.
00:51:05
Speaker
So my relatives live in Finland and his relatives live in the UK. So, you know, there's there's that part that, you know, we don't live in a sort of closely knit network of of people or families. We've got Mother-in-law popping around and looking at. No, no, no, no. And she's super lovely as well. Like, Tame's mum would not be like that anyway.
00:51:32
Speaker
dare I say, she's not necessarily the, you know, the super, super tidy, organized person herself. So, you know, there's, there isn't that kind of like judgment there. And she knows her son, let's put it that way. She knows what her son is like, so it's okay. So, but, you know, we don't really have that kind of pressure from, from our families. And, and then I would say that two years of COVID and, you know, hardly anyone coming for a visit.
00:51:55
Speaker
has kind of taken the pressure like this, there's even that, that no one comes around, it's like, okay, well, I guess we could just live however, you know, if we want to live like pigs in a, pigs in a, whatever, where pigs live, that's kind of fine, because like no one's coming around, ever. So that takes a pressure off quite a bit. But I think it's more internalized at this stage, and
00:52:21
Speaker
sometimes it's because I'm aware of how social like impacts social norms. And I am used to analyzing people's behavior and my own behavior with various different frameworks and things like that. So I, I hear I'm sort of extra, super rational, in a sense, like I am not a big Christmas person. And I kind of just analyze things like, well, a lot of these meanings are arbitrary anyway. I mean, you know, things like
00:52:49
Speaker
We attach arbitrary meanings to things and then get stressed about those meanings that we've kind of put them on ourselves. Like, they're just in our minds. Like, I'll give you an example so it makes a bit more sense. Living, also living between cultures has that effect on you. So I, in Finland, you would celebrate Christmas on Christmas Eve. So Christmas Eve is when everyone's celebrating and saying, you know, Merry Christmas or whatever on Facebook. And then Christmas Eve is nothing in the UK.
00:53:16
Speaker
So I've lived in the UK for 15 years and it's like, well, Christmas Eve is kind of like a normal day. And then Christmas Day is when it all happens. And then Christmas Day in Finland is like, well, it's already gone, you know. So, you know, I've lived for, you know,
00:53:32
Speaker
almost 20 years in this kind of weird limbo of like, well, when is Christmas? Who cares? Yeah, who cares? Like, it's just a day, and we all make a big deal about it. But actually, it's not, it doesn't matter what day it is, because it's different day elsewhere. And the Dutch can, you know, they just muddy the waters further because the cinter class, which is beginning of December. So Christmas, you know, that's when kids get presents. And it's kind of like all on the wrong time. And, you know, Santa or cinter class comes
00:54:00
Speaker
you know, way earlier than Christmas. And then Christmas is kind of like, well, it doesn't make sense because he's got quite a lot of the world to cover. So if he starts and the maths works out a lot easier than trying. Yeah, exactly. But so that's just an example of suddenly just like, well, what does it all mean anyway? And, you know, so it's it. Yeah, I don't know. We don't really have that kind of pressure. I think it's it has been more sort of internalized pressure that I've taken on, taken on. And, you know, some of those things
00:54:30
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. It is difficult, because sometimes I just like, right, well, what happens if I don't keep, you know, keep it going? And it's like, well, this is what happens, you know, we had, I'm not gonna tell that story. But there, let's say, let's just say that there was a specific thing that was his responsibility area. And it nearly went, it kind of ended up with me having to rescue the situation. So that's our benchmark, like, that will never happen again.
00:54:57
Speaker
No one's life was in danger. It's more about an item of importance. And it's like, this was your responsibility. And I didn't keep track of it because it was your area. And I ended up rescuing the situation. I never want this to happen again. This is not good. And since then, that was kind of a pivotal point that things changed. And I'm sad to admit that I do bring it up.
00:55:26
Speaker
right, we're never having that again. Remember that. And it's like, I'm aware of this punching below the belt, but like, this cannot happen. You know, like, it's not my job to rescue things. Even if I let if I don't keep track of things, sometimes they will just slip through that. And then it becomes my job anyway. Yeah, we've had those conversations. And we, you know, as long as you have those conversations, then you can work through it. Yeah, we have them. And, you know, to Tane's huge credit, he has taken that stuff on board and
00:55:55
Speaker
especially working with a coach as it like therapists, therapists is a therapist and counselor is a counselor. But a coach is it can be hugely helpful in doing something in practice, you can talk about your emotions, you know, endlessly. But it's not always, it's not always about that sometimes like, well, you know, we're kind of like, yeah, we're good, we're good. But actually, you know, the emotional stuff now comes up because we have to deal with something in practice. And dealing with a practice removes the
00:56:24
Speaker
the trigger for the emotional stuff. And talking about it will not make a difference. It's not a emotional reason. It's just ADHD, you know? Like, it is just like object permanence, you know? And like, can't see it, doesn't exist, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know? Things like this understanding. Just to quickly explain object permanence. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So kind of like out of sight, out of mind. So if you, you know, the kind of thing that if you
00:56:49
Speaker
Tiding things up into drawers sometimes means that you buy a second one of something because you can't find it again. You've forgotten that you even have it or...
00:56:57
Speaker
you know, if you have a if you have a planner that is that you put away in a drawer like tidy up, then you just forget that you just don't remember things that you cannot see. It's like the organizational system of having things in pile so that you can see it. As soon as you put it away, which is the typical like Marie Kondo kind of like ideology of
00:57:20
Speaker
tidy things away and keep it minimalistic. Like, yeah, keep it minimalistic. And I'll never remember to do that, that thing, you know, a hobby that you like or a pastime, you put it away and it's like, it doesn't exist. So that, you know, there's obviously much more to object permanence, but that's kind of like, that's how it tends to manifest that have a planner that you put, you know, like put onto a door that's on the inside of a door doesn't exist.
00:57:43
Speaker
It's gone. For a while, we had the to-do list on Magic Whiteboard on our office doors. I bet our cleaner thought we're bonkers. Do you know what Magic Whiteboard is? It's plastic sheets that stick onto any surface, and you can write on it with whiteboard markers. So we have those, and I look to them sometimes, because they become invisible as they're there longer. And I think she must have thought that we're mad, just that we just have basic things written on like, do this, do this, do this,
00:58:12
Speaker
And they're there for four weeks or whatever. The general standard routines people would take for granted. You've put on. Yeah. Yeah. To do lists that are on our door and it looks ugly, but that's kind of the thing. It needs to look ugly to attract attention and it still blends into the background eventually. So I had no idea where we got to that, but you know, yeah.
00:58:33
Speaker
Well, you talked about object permanence and things being outside and out of mind. And I imagine in a, well, I know, in a mixed, what we're calling a mixed relationship between a neurodiverse and a neurotypal person, that kind of object permanence is quite frustrating. That lack of object permanence in us is frustrating, but also it happens in time as well. So things that have happened in the past are in the past and things that happen in the future in the future. And they're not really necessarily that important.
00:59:02
Speaker
Yeah. I think there's also sometimes, um, there are, uh, I think the, when we use the term expressions, our ADHD expressions are, are different that I have a better memory for things that I've said. Like I, you know, I might, I might, we might've talked about something in at length and then it is quite frustrating and it can be super frustrating when I can assume that we talked about it for 30 minutes.
00:59:29
Speaker
You know, like what route we were coming back from. We talked about for 30 minutes, why are we taking that route? And I researched it, you know, where we're going to stay on a road trip. And then, you know, someone's like, Oh, I don't, I don't, why are we going this way? I have no idea. I'm like, really? We talked about it for ages. And it's like, but it's, I understand it is extra frustrating in some ways, extra challenging because you know that you're not, you know, you know, you're imperfect in, in some ways, some similar ways.
00:59:58
Speaker
but it just happens to be not applicable in this particular case. And it's kind of like, I'm simultaneously dealing with a fresh show. It's like, why the hell, why is it so hard for you? And at the same time it's like, yes, but I understand why it's hard for you, but it's still hard for me. You know, it's like, it's that battle. Like I understand, but it's still frustrating. And you know, and I understand why that's hard for you, but it's not my job to take on that because it's almost harder for me to do some of those things. It feels more unfair.
01:00:27
Speaker
for me to take responsibility for like, let's say, like running the household, the neurotypical tasks, because I am also challenged, challenged in these ways. So like, it's not, it's not, he can't use the, you know, if we have a conversation, it's like, ah, but it's because it's ADHD is like, yes, but I'm also ADHD. Yeah, so you can't use that card because in the same way, because like, well, I'm also ADHD.
01:00:51
Speaker
So, but this stuff needs to be done. I'm trying to keep it PC and like, but it's like, it needs to be done. So we need to work together by the way, because we both have ADHD and it's, you can't, you can't just go like, Oh, but I have ADHD. I find that really difficult. Like, yes, but so do I, you know, like, you know, then we're like, you know, uh, what's it, is it chest pain or whatever? It's like, aha, but we can't go.
01:01:14
Speaker
where do we go from here? It's hard for both of us. You know, but it's tough that these three done. So, you know, it's, it's, yeah, we have to be motivated to, to do those things. And yeah, I can't, I can't speak highly enough of the, you know, the benefits of having a coach in that kind of situation. Yeah.
01:01:35
Speaker
Definitely. Probably would be good to sort of when we wrap up to share the details of your coach in case other people want to get in touch. Oh, absolutely. Like he's it's been I would say that us independently working with him on our on our like, it's not necessarily productivity, but it's mostly to do with work things. However, those things would otherwise they just, you know, they just live. There's no separate. Yeah. And and I think they have helped us
01:02:05
Speaker
to deal with some of the stuff in our personal lives, but we're gonna take a much more practical approach to tackling that together. And I think I would, like I was explaining to someone that counselor or a therapist is, you know, that is what they are. But an actual coach is, I talk about it quite openly because people are totally fine talking about how they have a personal trainer for physical stuff. So why don't you have a personal trainer for your work stuff?
01:02:33
Speaker
It's no, you know, it's, it's no different to that, that you pay a personal trainer, someone pay this personal trainer to work out at the gym to keep them, you know, keep them accountable and give them feedback on their progress and kind of mirror that. And, you know, anyone who says that we're like, wow, you know, hand clap for how proactive you I'm looking after your physical health. Now, why don't we do the same thing with when it comes to your work life health?
01:02:58
Speaker
Because that's a huge impact on the rest of your life is how are you dealing with the pressures or the situations of with your work life and your working styles and everything like that. We don't think about that. We think like, oh, but why would you need that? Should you be able to do that? Well, same thing. Shouldn't you be able to go to the gym without personal trainer? He does that for, you know, it's like a, it's like a mental gym in a way to kind of keep, keep me accountable for the goals I want to have. And it's like, well, actually, should we adjust the goal? So maybe, you know, if we don't get there,
01:03:29
Speaker
way, why not, and kind of getting those new techniques. So it's exactly like, you know, it's like a, yeah, like a personal trainer for your brain, really. And so now we're going to take that, you know, it's kind of just like doing your personal trainer with your with your partner. And it's the same thing. So how are we going to solve these things and run this household, like, you know, an executive team. So it's, it's, it's worth
01:03:52
Speaker
worth definitely worth every, every, every penny that we do. Yeah, no, and penny, actually, he's the UK. So he's okay. So but he's, he's awesome. And sometimes it's also helpful to know that he's like, Joe, I used to work, I've worked with a lot of, you know, CEOs and stuff. And you'd be surprised how unorganized organized they are as well with everyday stuff like, I was like, Oh, well, that is actually that's actually just made me that's just, you know, the best part of today's sessions to know that
01:04:22
Speaker
It's not just me. There are other people who look successful or look very successful and might not be underneath it. Then all that practical. So like, okay, so maybe, maybe I have, it helps to challenge whether you hold yourself to standards are way too high because you assume you see everyone else's highlight reel and you don't see the background scramble.
01:04:44
Speaker
that's really true actually you do see everyone I look real and particularly on particular social media of course and I think as a sort of neurodivergent person you sort of think that you are you know automatically going to be worse at certain things but actually I'm not sure it's necessarily true I think you sort of conditioned or conditioned to think that the way that you do things is the wrong way because it's not the typical way and I suppose that's a sort of
01:05:11
Speaker
It's really nice to have a professional who works with you who also is ADHD or whatever neurodiversity you have, because then they have that same expectation that you can do anything, I suppose. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I think that's our like joint goal this year is to reduce the sort of low level chaos that we naturally create.
Impact of Environment on ADHD Symptoms
01:05:35
Speaker
And, you know, it's kind of also understanding that it doesn't have to be perfect.
01:05:41
Speaker
even a 10% or 20% improvement in how we run the household business is still, it reduces the amount of overwhelm or the stress that comes from like looking at, like knowing that there's a to-do list that, you know, or projects that should be started and things like that. So it doesn't have to be perfect, neither does your personal, you know, your professional life. If you make improvements, small improvements all the time, like,
01:06:10
Speaker
if you see 10, 20%, whatever improvement in how you do things, or at least 10, 20% of the time you do them more to your liking, then that's already better. Over time, it really adds up. And also reducing the chaos and stuff that's going around has been incredibly helpful for us. Moving out of the city and having a more, having a carbon lifestyle has an enormous impact on us
01:06:40
Speaker
So it's kind of little by little, realize that I do not seem as ADHD anymore as I would have been three years ago, living in a city and living a different lifestyle, different job. So it makes a huge difference that you fit, you have a good fit with your surroundings and include, you know, personal and working life. So which you only realize afterwards, you think that life is always like that. You think that is how it is.
01:07:08
Speaker
But it doesn't have to be, you don't realize until you take yourself out of the environment going, oh, I'm now much calmer. Wow. So yeah. Yeah.
01:07:17
Speaker
Well, it's been a bit of a kind of gamble through all sorts of different topics. Fantastic insights that you've had and probably, in retrospect, we should have just brought you on as a solo guest and really dug into it. But thank you very, very much.
01:07:40
Speaker
and sharing your insights. And I think it's been really helpful for people who are either neurodivergent themselves or living with someone who's neurodivergent, just to kind of some of the challenges and that really relentless practicality that you bring, which is really fantastic.
01:07:54
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I think I don't know if I've always been like this, but I worked with someone who's an economist for a good almost 10 years. And I think some of that non emotionality rubbed off and was like, yes, actually, that is quite a practical way to look at it. So yeah, I'm being analytical about it. Yeah, it's
01:08:18
Speaker
Sometimes it sounds odd when you say them out loud, but it works. How would people get in touch with you? Are you a social media person or have you got something to say to me? I think, well, you can find me on Twitter from like Square Peg Mind. That's why my work stuff. Square Peg Mind, nice. Yeah, I will probably look at that a bit more. Yeah, my whole thing is like putting Square Peg in a round hole, that kind of thing. And that's probably a good way to find me.
01:08:46
Speaker
I will look at that much more often than something else. It's been a real pleasure. I'm glad if it helps someone to think about things differently. I may have made it sound easy, but it's always easy with hindsight. It's clearly a lot of work and a lot of struggle and compromises gone into working out. I think we haven't talked more about the struggle than the upsides.
01:09:13
Speaker
I, you know, I should have mentioned that we also have a lot of fun. We're very silly and we're very much on the same wavelength. We kind of sometimes things like we just can't be released to the outside world anymore with normal people. You know, it's just like and and it's the being on the same wavelength with someone. It just, you know, it's
01:09:37
Speaker
It's very rewarding. You can't replace it, just that connection that we started with, that vibe, that energy. That's why you do it. That's why you do it. Yeah. Yeah. And absolutely. Yeah. And I think both of us, we've said it many times, it's like when we met, we felt like we truly understood and seen for the first time. And I think part of that is
01:10:04
Speaker
It's like I understand what it's like to be you. And some of the things that are come across as weird to a neurotypical when you're dating were totally normal for us. And the the feeling of feeling normal and understood is and accepted is priceless.
01:10:23
Speaker
So that's why we put all the work into it because, you know, it is worth all of that, however hard it is. So I've actually got, we got to, you know, squeeze in the, you know, squeezing the good stuff. And it's actually made me a little bit emotional that just thinking about that is really the, um, yeah, I'm extremely, uh, sort of grateful that I, I met him because I don't think I would necessarily feel the same kind of connection and with, you know, someone who isn't as ADHD. Yeah. So, yeah. So it's, um,
01:10:53
Speaker
Yeah, I stick with it, I would say to anyone who is, if you're lucky enough to find another one of your kind, then it's worth the work. Stick with it. Great, what a great message to end on. Thank you very much. Alina Hallonen, which I haven't mentioned your surname, which I should have picked up to finish. That's okay. Thank you very much for joining us and goodbye. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Bye.
01:11:20
Speaker
See, I told you she was brilliant. So that was another episode of Extraordinary Brains podcast. We are, as you probably may be aware, having a bit more of a relaxed episode release schedule this year. I've been ill constantly. Tess has been constantly busy and the next few months when she's got her GCSEs, it's unlikely that we'll be spending a huge amount of time on the podcast.
01:11:45
Speaker
We do still want people to come forward, however, even if we've got stuff in the bank to release in the summer, that's really cool. I feel particularly interested if you want to recommend somebody you think is interesting in this area, because a lot of people are talking about how they are now, but actually their stories, collating their stories can be a really interesting exercise. So if you've got somebody you want to recommend, please let us know. Social media is usually the easiest, which is extra brains pod.
01:12:14
Speaker
in all of the different socials or you can contact us through the website or by email. Anyway, I hope you're all well and do get in touch but other than that we'll have
01:12:29
Speaker
in a week's time, the second in our partners specials, which is going to be Nick Francis, the husband of Liz Francis, which is a much shorter, but very nice chat with a very nice man. So looking forward to that and see you soon. Bye bye.