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War from Ground Level: A Discussion About Experiencing the War in Ukraine
140 Plays2 days ago
We're back after a brief summer break!
The war in Ukraine is often, like many conflicts, discussed through the lens of foreign policy and the interests of these entities that we call states. This is not the framing that we simply inherit from media, it is one that the Left globally has embraced just as thoroughly as liberals and conservatives. Discussions become echoes of the Cold War, where massive power blocks collide in some geopolitical game involving huge historical projects.
There are myriad issues with this framing, but we will focus on just one in this episode. This framing has a tragic side effect, it has the tendency to disappear people on the ground living through conflict, and often abandoning them as a result. It has led some on the Left to support the worst authoritarians, right wing religious extremists, and genocidaires, all while abandoning people fighting authoritarianism repeatedly, merely because the states that supports the regime they are fighting are "anti-American".
We want to have a different discussion about war, and about Ukraine; a discussion about what it means to be an anarchist living in a place actively under invasion, facing existential threats, and the threat of immanent arrest or death if you lose. We are joined by Anton from the Solidarity Collectives to talk about the war, how life continues in a warzone, what the war has meant for the anarchist community in Ukraine and the wider region, and how a movement can not just survive, but also actively engage in the situation around them, against all odds.
You can follow the work of Solidarity Collectives here:
https://www.solidaritycollectives.org/en/
https://bsky.app/profile/solcolua.bsky.social
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Transcript
Introduction to The Beautiful Idea Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Thanks for listening. to the beautiful idea a podcast from a collective of several anarchist and autonomous media producers scattered around the world we're bringing you interviews and stories from the front lines of autonomous social movements and struggles as well as original commentary and analysis follow us on mastodon and at the beautifulde dot show thanks for listening
00:00:46
Speaker
All right, welcome back to The Beautiful Idea.
Living in a War Zone: Personal Experiences
00:00:48
Speaker
today we're going to be sitting down with a friend in Ukraine to talk about what it's like to be in a war zone, what it's like to be an anarchist in a place where you're in a really extreme situation that you don't get to choose the conditions of, and what it means to try and navigate all of that in in what is an existential conflict, right? One in which self-defense is necessary for survival.
00:01:14
Speaker
What we are not going to really focus a lot on today is foreign policy, those kinds of things. Our guest today did a really wonderful interview on The Final Straw, and has talked on The Right Podcast.
00:01:27
Speaker
If people want to go listen to those conversations, I highly encourage you to do so. But today I want to focus on a little bit of a different element that we often don't talk about. And it refers back, a piece I'll refer people to is a piece called The Anti-Imperialism of Idiots, which was written by Leila Al-Shami.
00:01:43
Speaker
in which she's talking about how when the quote-unquote left thinks about conflict, that we have this tendency to do two things.
00:01:56
Speaker
First is we have this tendency to center states, that we focus everything on foreign policy, that we focus everything on the relationship of power blocks and things like this, and that is an element of conflict, right?
00:02:08
Speaker
But we tend to center that. And then secondly, we tend to center... the role of the United States or some other major power block or competition of those major power blocks as the only political question that is at stake in any of these situations.
00:02:26
Speaker
Right.
Centering Lived Experiences in Conflict Zones
00:02:27
Speaker
And that what that does in her argument, what that does is it essentially reinforces this idea that all we are are kind of biomass that is used as a mechanism or a fuel for foreign policy.
00:02:44
Speaker
that the people are incidental, that they don't matter. And what that does is it makes us incredibly vulnerable to, let's just take the example of Syria.
00:02:56
Speaker
The Syrian government was able to at least convince enough people that the resistance was made up of, quote, Islamists, that the left was silent, and that in that process, we left people to die.
00:03:09
Speaker
What she is calling for in that piece is for us to add a framing of warfare and conflict to the way that we talk about these situations, which centers on the actual lived experience of people that are are in these situations.
00:03:28
Speaker
That when you're experiencing invasion, if you're, know, Bosnian and you're living in Sarajevo in the early 1990s, like you are not choosing to get shelled by ethno-nationalist militias, but you are, right? Right.
00:03:43
Speaker
that we don't get to choose the conditions of our engagements. We don't get to choose the crises that we see. Right. But we are in them and other people are in them and they have to survive and navigate and negotiate all the complexities of a situation which often they have very little power.
00:04:03
Speaker
And so that's where I want
Meet Anton: Ukrainian Anti-Authoritarian Collective Member
00:04:04
Speaker
to focus our discussion today. I want to focus on what does it mean to be somebody living in Ukraine now? What is it like to experience the sort of impersonalized violence of airstrikes and drone strikes and missile strikes and things like this?
00:04:23
Speaker
What it's like to have to fight in situations that you don't choose, in conditions you don't choose. That's where I want to focus our discussion today. Because I think often in our discourses, we don't talk about this element of things, right?
00:04:37
Speaker
And so for our discussion today, That's where I want to so mostly focused focus our our sort of conversation. Before we really get into it, would you like to introduce yourself?
00:04:50
Speaker
Yeah, hi. I'm Anton from Solidarity Collective, an Ukrainian anti-authoritarian collective, we say. I've been working now for three years in the building this solidarity structure for ah for the comrades who who are fighting here against the the full-scale invasion that happened in 2022, so now for three years.
00:05:17
Speaker
And we we are ah civilian organization working closely with comrades who are fighting about their needs that can't be covered by what is the army here.
00:05:30
Speaker
So I'm not going to talk as ah as a military person, but I can share some experience also of my talks with the friends and comrades who are fighting.
00:05:42
Speaker
Yeah, this is how myself,
Historical Context: Russia and Eastern Europe Conflict
00:05:45
Speaker
I'm not from Ukraine. I'm from an eastern part of Europe, but also with um with history since the last centuries of relation with with Russia as it was in, you So I have also history in my in my family, in in other wars with Russia, of people who had to fight or flee from different regions or survive wars. And I can make parallels with this, ah which is also, I guess, one of the reasons why I could come here since 2022 to work in my and my understanding of the the situation and the history of it.
00:06:25
Speaker
Yeah, and why don't why don't we get into that? So, you know, before we were recording, One of the things that we were talking a little bit about is and yeah how in the U.S. we tend to have a framing that's very centered on what it means to be American. Right. And we center the U.S. in our understanding. We center the experience and the experience that that comes from being American in our understanding. And we tend to universalize that.
00:06:51
Speaker
Right. We tend to talk about that experience as, you know, something that graphs itself internationally, that the things that the United States did and has done and are doing are somehow indicative of everything.
00:07:03
Speaker
But let's get into a little bit about the history of this war, right, of this conflict, of this invasion. Where does this all start, right? Why is there this tendency of different regimes over history in Russia to want to invade and occupy what is currently Ukraine?
00:07:25
Speaker
I mean, on on the longer history, to to to put it also in in my motivation to come, is this understanding that there hasn't really been long-term peace between what was Russia and what was or is Eastern Europe since centuries.
00:07:45
Speaker
And in the less longer time, let's take the the last hundred years, 20 years, for example. i mean, there's been several, already several wars that could be compared to to to this one in many ways.
00:08:04
Speaker
And if you take it from 2000, 2008, where ah we started also, like, the more like changes in ah jim in in Russia, namely with Putin settling more and more, what started to see is like kind of repetition somehow of what has been in other periods.
00:08:33
Speaker
And it is,
Ukraine's Resistance: From Maidan Protests to Invasion
00:08:36
Speaker
I understand it can feel like far far away from from US in the sense that there is this centrality that is felt also of the US politics since the since the Second World War, of course.
00:08:50
Speaker
But ah also about the support, I don't know about what was happening with Hitler's Germany or now like Putin's put Russia and the help that ah but is still has been one of them the greatest in lake yeah giving the opportunity to to defend here also.
00:09:09
Speaker
which is So it's still something that is that is ah something real, like the the centrality in this sense. internationally and especially here also at the moment.
00:09:22
Speaker
But and on how people leave it, it's not really related only to this, let's say, short history. It's also longer. And it'ss it's a history of what could be called the local history of colonialism that happened in many centuries of how started from what you would call Muscovitz, then going to towards west the east and the west, and and then trying to to today sell it as this is Russian history. but
00:09:55
Speaker
There is a lot of anti-colonial history of indigenous people inside Russia. There is a lot of different peoples in what people call Russia today. And Ukrainians have been part of this history also in the last century of what now we know as post-Soviet or what was the the USSR.
00:10:20
Speaker
and And this comes to questions of how to who who writes the the history and how it's being told. And in in there, as as I understand it, there is this this try to to to say to the world that there is the Russian history and in the Russian history belongs Ukraine.
00:10:40
Speaker
and Ukrainians and their bodies included and that to to continue this telling of history that Ukrainians would be part of it means having to accept it even if it means dying when you don't and what what happened here in a more contemporary way when ah when was made the choice that there is no will from from Ukrainians to to continue being so near of what is the Russian world because of the changes with Putin by the time that were looked and understood in the sense of the repression of opposition and all anti-democratic laws and yeah the this that was happening. So when Yanukovych
Ukrainian Responses to Invasion: Chaos and Defense Organization
00:11:35
Speaker
somehow betrayed will
00:11:38
Speaker
of Ukrainians wanting to be closer to what is, ah let's say, Europe today, and eventually because of demonstrations and then Yanukovych making this choice of using the police to kill more than 100 people in the demonstrations.
00:11:59
Speaker
But people choosing not to stop and continue. So he was forced to flee, and he fled to Russia in the same way and Assad did, for example, recent months.
00:12:12
Speaker
And since then, there's been this try to to to tell the history that Ukrainians don't really exist, or if they exist, they are enemy in the sense of Nazis. And this is part of what what means...
00:12:27
Speaker
talking about Nazis in Russia that is not about anti-Semitism or something like this. It means Putin motivates in in Russians more this so-called patriotic war of Russia alone fighting Nazism and like erasing the history of Stalin signing to take Poland and like this history in the beginning in 1939.
00:12:55
Speaker
and then so this was erased somehow from from history in Russia and and and what I'm trying to say is that there is this this move of like Ukrainians saying like we want out of this that went to the point of starting to throw people bodies to to defend this this idea that it's not possible to continue and since then Then was the invasion and occupation and taking of what is Crimea, part of Donbass.
00:13:33
Speaker
And this is what has been the the the motivation from from Russia so to to erase this no that was said. um In this, then, I can develop on what was the the understanding for but our movement here that it was not so clear until 2008.
00:13:56
Speaker
So in the past, in the eight years that were until the full-scale invasion, because at this moment there was there was talks about what is anti-militarism, what means a possible total invasion, and people were were arguing together.
00:14:11
Speaker
Also because, my understanding of the scale and the geography of it, that it was quite and kind of popular, you know, for people more in Kiev or more in the West to understand it as, ah, it's something in the East, it's not yet directly connected, and we should be anti-militarist because, you know, anarchist, and not working with with with the army of of the nation, let's say.
00:14:40
Speaker
But this whole argument between we people in the movement stopped when the scale actually changed and it became total in the sense of nearly crumbling the whole country and destroying and to until Kiev. And that's when many people actually understood it, i would guess, in their body, you could say, understanding of the threat of it, that then...
00:15:10
Speaker
Then you just have to look for the solutions of how you can defend yourself effectively against what's coming. And there there came the the choices out of the the obvious situation that was faced, that there is no means to to defend yourself against what was the what was the aggression outside of having the means of what is a state, in the sense of arms and relations with other countries that could help.
00:15:39
Speaker
and this I mean, i I could also say about this that before 22, there was a lot of Ukrainians who who didn't think that there would be any chance to actually defend, that people were doubtful of each other, that there was a doubt that that Zelensky would actually do something or stay.
00:15:58
Speaker
So it was it was a surprise for for for everybody that actually you could find your... your neighbors, people in your neighborhood, that and that everybody would get together and that actually there would be an answer also from what was the government and that all of this combined, like, made the resistance possible.
00:16:18
Speaker
Yeah. Until now. Yeah. Yeah. And what was, what were those initial days like? So, you know, I think it is very difficult in the United States to imagine living through an invasion.
00:16:37
Speaker
Right? We haven't been invaded except in Hawaii since the War of 1812. Right? And have whole oceans that that that form barriers to to prevent that from happening. It is a very difficult thing to imagine. it's It forms an entire genre of fantasy movies about people imagining what that would be like.
00:16:59
Speaker
But... You all don't have to imagine that. You went through it. And so what were the initial days of the invasion like? why Why did people feel the threat so existentially, so in their bodies, right?
00:17:17
Speaker
As opposed to intellectually or like through the lens of government policy or something like that. Like why why was the threat so existential, right? Like what was it that was happening?
00:17:29
Speaker
that was causing people to to have to defend themselves in that situation. Yeah, and they also will take it geographically and also give some ah examples because, like, some some people froze, for example, and went into hiding and couldn't do anything in first days because of, like, suddenly it's ballistics coming.
00:17:56
Speaker
i mean, some things that you... It's hard to grasp what you can't really do anything. You can just go into hiding and try to trust that maybe there is a difference. But at the beginning, OK, it was different situation.
00:18:11
Speaker
You had some people that had all because of having training from before. that were not exactly related to being in the military in the sense of understanding what kind of war is being dealt with.
00:18:26
Speaker
But like, let's say, partisanship or something like this. And some people would be more, at least psychologically, understanding that, okay, like, what can I, what what can't I do?
00:18:38
Speaker
So, for example, some comrades in Kharkiv who... They just had a drone. Kharkiv was nearly surrounded. They started to go with their drone because they were doing photograph photography.
00:18:50
Speaker
And they they took contact with ah with a friend of theirs that was in the territorial defense structures. And they just started to use their drone dressed as civilians and using chats that were were made just unit to unit, sometimes not coordinated, centralized anywhere, to just try try to direct fire.
00:19:13
Speaker
ah from artillery, for example, or just do some reconnaissance, to say. So it was very, I don't know, natural in this sense. People nearly get got killed in the first days, meaning their car got aimed and they had to to jump away from it, for example.
00:19:31
Speaker
So it was directly just life-threatening situation and how to react on it. If you could, you would, and some would freeze and many people would get killed.
00:19:43
Speaker
or starting to to fight or freezing. So there you... I don't know how much is a choice and how much is ah the the psychology from before or how much is the reaction, the automatic reaction that you can have. and This really depends on people.
00:19:59
Speaker
But I mean, there is also someone else that he he was in the Kherson region and he got occupied. um So he started more like partisanship inside and, of course, in communication with Ukrainian forces when could.
00:20:16
Speaker
And then by the time when when finally this part of of this Harrison region got liberated by Ukrainian army, then he joined the Ukrainian army forces, there also a comrade.
00:20:34
Speaker
There were some so some people also in Kiev that because they had organized a bit few months before, to but in a reality bit like really few weeks and then a few days before, a rough plan, then there was the this capacity to to build the first civilian organization that would support four comrades who were going to to fight. And this, at the beginning, like,
00:21:03
Speaker
this structure became solidarity collectives today by the time. And then there was also some that had decided that they would try to to get in one territorial defense structure that is near Kiev.
00:21:16
Speaker
And there they gathered about 40 plus people, including internationals who who came to help. with me It was also a so lot of more people who didn't have any kind of military training, for example. And then They were helping out on some things that were needed, but it was like, let's say, counter counter spy or a counter, like, dealing with the neighborhood somehow, ah but not directly in the fight, but it was also part of the resistance moments.
00:21:48
Speaker
Then there was also someone else that, a friend told this this story that he was he was trying to take... ah train to leave they had a bit badly chosen where where to go at the beginning in the sense of which neighbourhood and the they chose to go somewhere thinking that it would be safe but finally it was occupied by by Russians but they they still managed to flee to the train hiding for the period where the Russians were there but then after to try to take a train and he he was saying that it was the first time like basically they saw helicopters coming Russian helicopters
00:22:26
Speaker
And it's the first time that he saw the the aviation ah Ukrainian who who actually was there to save this train where he was. And he was saying like he will most likely maybe never met those guys, but that it created a direct link, even if they were in a plane going so fast, but a direct link of who actually saved you just right now.
00:22:50
Speaker
I mean, and another story is from a comrade that now has been killed. sir Samuel Newey, like he he was telling me that he came the beginning thinking that he would help with ah humanitarian help.
00:23:06
Speaker
And they yeah arrived in Kiev and were a bit asking Iran what they could do. They found some guys saying, yeah, we're going east to help. ah Come with us.
00:23:16
Speaker
and brada Yeah, great. Like, what what are we taking there? And it was a van, like, you know, just a van. And the guy said, oh, javelins. Okay, let's go. And that's how he he told me this, going through blog post to blog post, that ah after the doors of Kiev, he would see people, like, just with ah a piece of wood doing a blog post without any firearm or anything.
00:23:42
Speaker
And just asking who you are, you know, for but pointing those wood sticks at the window. And then they would just say, oh we are just volunteers and we have javelins. And they would, oh, yeah, great, go.
00:23:54
Speaker
And then more and more they would go to the east and more and more they would see people who actually had some kind of military-looking gear and maybe a shotgun and then maybe some rifle, but much further in the east.
00:24:06
Speaker
So, I mean, at the beginning, point yeah it's it's kind of chaotic in the sense of imagining how it was everywhere. Me personally, at this time, i was choosing to to come to help ah in in any way possible. And then after, so soon so I arrived in in Poland and it's like later on that arrived.
00:24:29
Speaker
all those stories of
Daily Life in Ukraine Amidst War
00:24:31
Speaker
people were, or directly or later on that, uh, that I heard by talking. So this is the, the, the, of the first days I'm sharing the ones that, uh, that I heard from others that were here.
00:24:42
Speaker
But on, on a general, uh, thing I would, I would say its italy it was, of course, dependent of the, if, if the aggression was directly touching your body in a way, know,
00:24:57
Speaker
nearer and your capacity to answer to it and for some the how to say the will just to come and do whatever possible and to find that actually you start to work with anybody that is your neighbors or the the people close to you like locally ah in in a more or less surprise way ah with with also like some bullshit like no communication forcefully very well done. So you can imagine what it creates when you have many people in arms and nobody exactly knows who is who.
00:25:36
Speaker
So the paranoia that was also. And so what is it? i mean, I keep going back to the experience, but what is it like in Ukraine now?
00:25:48
Speaker
I as a civilian, What is it like? I mean, you I assume you have to pay rent and like utilities and stuff and like car insurance and things like what what is that like? What is that experience like and how how does having to negotiate around the danger shift that or change that?
00:26:11
Speaker
yet on on On the everyday life since in Kiev since the summer of 2022, let's say there was a certain sense of normality in the sense like you have to come back to work, pay the rent, starting of economical life we know in Kiev.
00:26:28
Speaker
Capitalism. So this sense of normality in the sense that today like you you you would spend also time in the traffic, for example. One specificity is that when there is an alarm, then some bridges are closed to pass from left to right bank, where you have, and and maybe not most, but a big part of the people live on the left bank, and then you can't get to the to the right bank, so you can get blocked. So in traffic that is ah made by attacks that are made ah or by ballistic or by drone.
00:27:01
Speaker
I guess one, i mean, one, it's not only like the the the big difference is that everybody that works, it's with this understanding that all the working is also to to support the effort of the defense.
00:27:17
Speaker
And everybody's fundraising for friends, people they know in the army. and yeah and using parts of their ah salaries. You have some companies also who offer to their own employees like to donate if they are volunteers or if like to the to the specific people who work for those companies.
00:27:41
Speaker
So a lot of the economy also centered around this. And for example, there is a cafe nearby our warehouse. There you have you have It's two young guys.
00:27:54
Speaker
They now 21, 22, and one is even younger. And in 2022, one of them at least was helping out in the legend ah for a year and half.
00:28:10
Speaker
Very, very young at this time. And... then could stop, didn't sign sign the contract, and now he's serving in this cafe to serve the cafe.
00:28:22
Speaker
And they have a box where it's for ah it's for a unit they know where where this guy was ah in 2020 to help build drones, to to to have funds for this unit need to build their own FPVs, for example.
00:28:38
Speaker
so So a lot of the everyday life turns around this. and the economical level and related to work, I mean. Then, i mean, there is drones and ballistics who continue to come and the the past month and a half has been even more than in the month and two before.
00:29:00
Speaker
And where where I live, for example, when the Shahheads fly over, we can hear their motors. So... I mean, they changed maybe six months ago, I think, the speed of them.
00:29:13
Speaker
But it sounds like sounds like a small moped. not Not a motorcycle, but, you know, like 50 cubic centimeter motor, like two times. And we can hear it resonating between the buildings. It's like high high buildings of like 17 floors.
00:29:31
Speaker
seventeen floors So I could hear when they changed the speed of it because it changed the sound of them. And then they get shot over the over in the building where I live. And at this time, everybody tries to look on different telegram channels that exist that are stating what is in the sky, what is happening.
00:29:54
Speaker
So you know about like what is the threat level in the sense that to know if you need to go inside the building, if there is a threat that actually a wall could get completely blasted, or if it would be two walls blasted.
00:30:09
Speaker
So then you just try to imagine how far inside the building you need to go, because we don't have ah shelter in the building. Here the shelter would be the metro station that is the nearest, and it's like a good five-minute walking fast to get there.
00:30:25
Speaker
so So basically some nights you just listen on... The air defense shooting the Shahid and hoping that it will not get down on the building.
00:30:36
Speaker
So this creates like like lack of sleep because it's, of course, in the night almost ah most of the time. in In the neighborhood where I live is not, I mean, there is other neighborhoods who are more often...
00:30:50
Speaker
targeted by ballistics because of what Russia says is possible targets. So this is not the case where where I live, but it's ah it's about the Shahads. So sometimes, for example, personally, I can say like the the last big attack that killed several people in Kiev, it was a At the moment in the night that me out of work, i was completely tired and I was sleeping.
00:31:16
Speaker
Before going to sleep, they were shooting shot heads, but this is kind of not everyday life, but nearly. So it was possible to go to sleep and at least from the tiredness, just went to sleep.
00:31:28
Speaker
So I read the news in the morning and then it's like checking out, is everybody okay? Everybody trying to contact all people they know to see if someone was injured or or or killed in the in the morning attack.
00:31:44
Speaker
I would say, yeah, it's somewhere there if it pictures a bit the daylife. And how has that changed? I mean, it it seems from a distance...
00:31:56
Speaker
like the character of the war has changed, right? That it went from, and again, this is from a distance, right? It it seems as if it went from ah kind of chaotic people's resistance against an invasion where there were lots of atrocities against civilians and, you know, towns getting wiped off the map to something that's,
00:32:21
Speaker
looks a lot more like a ossified sort of military conflict. But what has that meant for you? Like, how have you been perceiving that change? And and what has that meant as far as your experience of of living through this?
00:32:38
Speaker
At the beginning, yeah it t was everywhere. but i mean, and until Keefe, the the the ah chaos and feeling of like there is a war everywhere around.
00:32:51
Speaker
in in the west, in in the west of Ukraine, in a different way because there was no troops coming. And then, yes, after the out-end of 2022, when, I mean, spring of 22 and then the out-end, when it was, let's say the war was pushed again to the eastern ah regions, then, yeah, it has been like a,
00:33:18
Speaker
like a huge change on the everyday life in the sense that they're like you could, of course, start to live again, let's say, in the kind of way that was before. And there was less this feeling of everyday survival ah way than at the beginning they started to to install. And also, because in 2022, to remind, like the the army was about three three hundred thousand people strong But in December of 2022, it was already a million.
00:33:53
Speaker
So there was already 600,000 people who were civilians who became defenders in the in with the army. So what changed is that then everybody knew and knows someone, several people who are now in the army.
00:34:10
Speaker
So it's very personal in this sense of the relations. And then, of course, if... i mean The destruction of of cities. and Some are still in what is occupied territories, like for example Mariupol that was taken in the first days.
00:34:27
Speaker
And with the people who could flee and the many people who got trapped there who who couldn't go for different reasons, I mean, didn't go. And occupied territories is now a different story than what it is in what is a Ukrainian not occupied territories.
00:34:50
Speaker
So about what is the the cities that were destroyed this, don't know, because since, i mean, and until now, it's the continuation of this. It feels like no and an unstoppable destruction coming matter by matter and continuing to destroy all cities or villages that are on its way.
00:35:09
Speaker
This is still how the war is, in the sense that the Russian army continues to to advance in many places since the three years. So in this sense, it continues to feel that there is this advance, but it's less acute, let's say, from Kiev, for example, the feeling on the direct threat on the body, but the relation with all the people that we know, and for us especially with the relation with ah all the comrades who are fighting and that we are in communication in everyday life.
Civilians vs. Military Perspectives During Conflict
00:35:43
Speaker
it's It's really there in the sense of and many times when you when you have a conversation, you you don't know if it will be the last one, which happened to me now again two weeks ago with a friend that was killed and we still have this conversation in the air.
00:36:03
Speaker
So on a personal way, what I do in this situation is just that I send a dot in the same chat, knowing that it will never go, but it's a way for me to to put a closure to it.
00:36:17
Speaker
team And then relating to to grief, for example, of what it does, is it created this kind of... You you have to deal with this... this is How to say Yeah, with this relation that more and more people continue getting getting killed, that ah that you know, that you work with in ways, and and i'm not knowing how many will actually survive from from what's continuing to happen.
00:36:49
Speaker
what we What we continue to see since a year is that every month we have new comrades also joining the defense defence forces, the army here.
00:37:01
Speaker
So we support... and um and then try to relate on the on the memory of of all the ones who who were already killed and and remember why they were they were also fighting and why people are fighting today.
00:37:18
Speaker
so in this way, i mean i guess I could say also that there is ah different understanding between people who are in the military and also in the military between people who are in infantry in the first line or in different kinds of jobs who are more further from the zero and also with ah civilians. And that there, for me, what i but I kind of saw is how the laws that, you know, create this understanding that normally it's, you have people in arms who are paid by the state and then you have people who are not supposed to deal with or
00:38:01
Speaker
their own defense or their own justice, ah meaning the police and the army. And that for the people who basically should hand to others the right for justice and like killing or this that is part of also defense today that there is the difference in understanding on the on the everyday life of what is what is it you're doing and how threatful it is for for ah for your life so and so for some it's like a proxy in the sense that it's people you know and for some it's directly on their um their own body and this this you can see i mean
00:38:45
Speaker
Few comrades have complained about this, about the difference in understanding between civilians and militaries today also, about relating to the war, in the sense that all the people who are fighting are putting their body directly in the first line.
00:39:01
Speaker
And this basically defends everybody else that is in the back. And the ones who are in the back understand that, but don't feel it in their body. and and sometimes can't relate in the same way to what needs to be done to defend.
00:39:17
Speaker
So this is something that me I see as a one one acute problem because of the this not feeling on the threat of your own body in the same way and and what it means for...
00:39:32
Speaker
for your everyday life, but also for the understanding of what is this defense that's happening and how he is exactly the war. So it has changed in many ways since since three years.
00:39:45
Speaker
But this yes this this separation in in the law and in who who does what works in the society, I can see kind of kind of clearly today what ah what means the thinking of security and how you organize it.
00:40:01
Speaker
in society and how it how it's puts people in different worlds on and also understanding how to talk to each other.
Anarchism in Ukraine: History and Development
00:40:10
Speaker
The Beautiful Idea is a proud member of the Channel Zero Anarchist Podcast Network.
00:40:15
Speaker
Here's a taste of another project on CZN.
00:40:21
Speaker
The Final Straw is a weekly anarchist radio show. It's fucking awesome, and you're never going to hear me say fucking awesome on our show, because we're FCC regulated. There's a ah black part of my heart that that just flutters when you when you talk like that. i i Talk, then more yelling. to put up the the It's a weird sort of like nice...
00:40:45
Speaker
playinging in a way, but also can get kind of crushing at times. TheFinalStrawRadio.NoBlogs.org.
00:40:59
Speaker
Shift a little bit. We've got, you know, maybe 15 minutes left. Let's shift a little bit and talk about the anarchist movement Ukraine. Maybe start with a little bit of history, right? And I think it's always it's always important to start with history when we're talking about context you might not be familiar with, but maybe run through like a little bit of like, what is the history of the anarchist movement in Ukraine?
00:41:21
Speaker
and not just Ukraine, but, you know, ah Central Eastern Europe, the former Soviet bloc, quote unquote. What is that history? Like, how how do we get up to this point? Where where was the anarchist movement in Ukraine when the invasion happened?
00:41:36
Speaker
Right. Like, how many people were there? Like, how prepared were people? Like, what is that story?
00:41:45
Speaker
Yeah, but I mean, also in 2014, for example, many comrades participated in the different Maidans or in Kiev or in Kharkiv and also in other places like Donetsk or somewhere in Crimea.
00:42:00
Speaker
And no all those also saying the people who are now fighting in Ukraine against the invasion. Many people reacted or directly because it was already, for example, Donetsk.
00:42:15
Speaker
The comrades from there started to fight since the first years, since 2014. And the people from the comrades from Crimea, a few were imprisoned because of doing sabotage work in 2014.
00:42:31
Speaker
And then one was exchanged because he was a prisoner for five years, for example, in Russia, before being exchanged in a prisoner, exchanged to come back to Ukraine. And now he's fighting.
00:42:44
Speaker
So, again, it's geographical. And then about the the about the movement that was, let's say, Kiev, Lviv, was in a different way related to it.
00:42:59
Speaker
in the end There were some trainings that were that were organized for in case of invasion and occupation, at least to have a ah basic, let's say, military training, but not something very deep and not for this kind of war.
00:43:15
Speaker
And then some some other part that was ah concentrating in social struggles and also who would be anti-militarist and people were arguing of what should be done.
00:43:32
Speaker
in In many ways, it was a movement looking to the to the West, but also connected with, of course, the movement that were was or is in Belarus or Russia. better And so the repression from people from the movement in those, i mean, in Russia or Belarus, many people had to flee from there or were in prison or are in prison today still.
00:44:02
Speaker
And this was always connected. So this was a part that was not shared in the sense of the way to organize was pretty Western of what to organize, like demos, flea markets,
00:44:18
Speaker
actions against like in solidarity with something happening internationally or it was a kind of movement that so i think for for people for us from us or from europe when coming it's pretty easy to to relate to the part of the basic organizing that was not related to the to the war directly with the difference that seen from the thing that there was all the all the all the part of the movement with ah prisoners of or people fleeing in exile or all coming to Ukraine or to Europe from Russia and Belarus and the consciousness of this building of the repression more and more in Russia and under putin the Putin regime like completely closing all opposition.
00:45:05
Speaker
So for for for the movement, turned into it was a mix of those two understandings that was I mean, it was also pretty loose way of organizing in the sense that not everybody was doing things in coordination or something like this.
00:45:22
Speaker
More like, you know, like you make something, you make a call, someone sees it on internet, oh, it's interesting. And people relating like by personal relations or in this way.
00:45:33
Speaker
And so from from this history, it's also why people also hear like there is Ukrainians, of course, defending that there is Belarusians, there is also Russians who who came here, comrades, also to fight because of the understanding of that.
00:45:54
Speaker
Today, with helping Ukrainians to to continue resist, there is maybe a chance to actually do something about what's happening in Russia, Belarus, more than from from inside. or I mean, yeah, this was one.
00:46:11
Speaker
Also, like, you can't run all your life. Like, at some point, you you also have to to fight it off, and here there is a chance to fight it.
00:46:21
Speaker
This is, like, the common understanding today with more more everybody in touch with each other and more coordination, also because of the work we're doing. you i mean, it's more like a structure that is, like,
00:46:36
Speaker
the mutual aid structure in the movement that support many people who are in a lot of different groups. that maybe before even those groups would argue with each other, as but today everybody is like fighting together.
00:46:50
Speaker
So now there is more coordination in this sense that there is ah there is a need for it. So there is this mutual network that was it was built. and And then there is all the social struggles that continue with groups that were created in the inside the period of the full-scale invasion, like for now a year and a half.
00:47:11
Speaker
like a student union, fourth generation, for example, that was reborn out of the students and feminist struggles and groups who who who continue to organize and everybody trying to but have this understanding that for now the biggest threat is also from is from what's happening with the Russian invasion.
00:47:38
Speaker
And that's where there is a kind of more coordination. And then the different political understandings of who who wants to help each other on what social struggle.
00:47:50
Speaker
This is like somehow like how it's organized now. So let's say ah still after like all this mix of of ways to organize became also much more ah related to to the situation with this full-scale war in the sense that it's still very young in the sense it's three years ago and there is still this threat that the whole of mean there is still ballistics everywhere and it's still this feeling that there could be a full invasion starting again at some point or it could it could be and in this sense all that is
00:48:32
Speaker
Anarchist, progress progressive, anti-authoritarian, leftist, activist under Russian rule here would be directly targets under
Rebuilding Ukraine: Challenges and International Aid
00:48:45
Speaker
occupation. So all that is done today with volunteers, like, we would say that we are, structures that are obviously organized, everybody would be, would be a target of repression if not killed in the moment of, of invasion.
00:48:59
Speaker
So it's still this understanding keeping everybody together in, like, coordinating to, to, to work together in this defense. So what, what does the future look like?
00:49:12
Speaker
What does the horizon look like? I mean, that, that is a big question, but, I think maybe we can address it on a couple of different levels. You know, the a lot of Ukraine is destroyed.
00:49:24
Speaker
A lot of the economy is destroyed. A lot of people are dead. The International Monetary Fund has lent the country a bunch of money. The United States is trying to buy all the minerals, right? There's a lot of international forces that are trying to get their peace of what's going on, essentially, right?
00:49:41
Speaker
What does rebuilding in that context look like? What does fighting for justice in that context look like as essentially the vultures of international finance start to you know swoop down on Ukraine and take whatever they can from the rubble?
00:49:58
Speaker
Right. Like, what is that rebuilding look like and kind of how are people starting to approach the social problems that are so that are cropping up? They're starting to exist as the situation changes.
00:50:10
Speaker
ah since Since a year and a half again, i would say the the the political life started again more openly, because before it was really only about the defense, all the talks.
00:50:24
Speaker
But then started to... Everybody could start to raise other problems, and this is a pretty vivid on on the critique of...
00:50:36
Speaker
the government or sometimes also like the decisions of the army or the but what is going on socially with patriarchy working conditions and there is unions who who who are working on that here also supported with a network from from Europe and also in the US who who try to help directly the unions here so that For now, that the rebuilding seems like something that will need help from outside, will continue for a long term.
00:51:14
Speaker
And ah basically, in the places where it's possible, it's being rebuilt. Of course, with this sensation and like practical thing that you can rebuild, but it might be destroyed the next day.
00:51:26
Speaker
So people rationalize also. like For example, one of our comrades also in I will just take an example from Keith, that her window got again smashed by the latest ballistics in the center.
00:51:41
Speaker
So she's trying to wait. Should she repair? Is it the moment? It's already two or three times that she has to do it. Because the windows are, this time didn't get shattered. but And then you can you can ask for ah for ah for reparation, also from the state today.
00:51:59
Speaker
For example, for building, talking. the rebuilding of institutions this is also being done in the sense there is a political activity of the of the parliament and there is ah polls you know like done so there is no election but there is a political life in the sense of watching what people think and then making the laws accordingly because the parliament is still voting and still passing laws by the by the executive so I mean, then then didn there was, I think, two years ago was also a start of like changing how the funds are done to be more, to give a bit more economical possibility for the the regions to to to have their own funds. But it's pretty new and like the the local administrations are still trying to learn to work with it.
00:52:52
Speaker
So this is, but but there is like, changes that are being done that will be to form a bit more autonomy also on the on the on the state economy like to to to put it in the region we we have some some congress who also started a tenant union uh because here the the laws for uh for housing are completely wild like capitalism so there's not really much rules so like um
00:53:23
Speaker
So basically, tenants getting together to try to settle off what could be a contract, what is actually the rights that you have, and how how you can stay in a home or ah like ask for ah for some things.
00:53:37
Speaker
and So this is also something that's that's going on, started now from from some some friends, comrades. so So the rebuilding is going on at the same time now in in many places.
00:53:51
Speaker
and In some places it's really not obvious because it's really hit constantly. So they're but rebuilding, I guess, in a different understanding. So now now I'm speaking about the places that feel that it's possible to rebuild
00:54:08
Speaker
with ah with a sense of it, like to understand it. Me, how... How I see it is that it's going to be dependent of aid from from outside Ukraine from for for a very long time. And this is also our situation as a collective, like as ah as a network like and as a collective, like we we try to...
00:54:30
Speaker
Also implement like between us, like the sharing of stuff, for example, but it's also completely understood that we, we couldn't react to all that is needed by our own means, like just by working and taking from our wages, for example, or by, ah by other means, like there is no, there is no way to answer this kind of, it's very expensive stuff that is needed for, ah for people who, who are fighting now.
00:54:57
Speaker
And I would guess in it's it's in the same way on the on the country level that but is really, really dependent on on external. Also, I mean, what we call Russia is also like yeah something like a very big economy and army. So it's it's not going to stop anytime soon. So the full rebuilding is harder to say because this would mean that needs to stop what is the war, the aggression.
00:55:25
Speaker
And this, don't really see it coming anytime soon because there is no will from Putin's Russia, let's say. So, yeah, I would say dependence and trying to to to play with a with economical means without having too much damage on like everyday life in the sense that that yeah there is pretty high inflation and it's pretty hard for many people with the wage to to to buy all that's needed it's it can be really hard if not impossible but there is like structures between families and friends like to try to to support each other so not not everything can be dealt with ah for sure like of what uh
00:56:15
Speaker
what the state is doing is it's really not, it's its more people helping each other so on in everyday life. Like there is evacuations of civilians that is also made by volunteer structures still today to to help out in in few situations where what is organized by the state is not working.
00:56:35
Speaker
So it's it's it's mixing in this as well. So yeah for for me, that the the rebuilding at at the end, It's of course dependent on if there is an end to the aggression and what this will this will mean.
00:56:53
Speaker
i guess there is in rebuilding there is reparation also so that will be in question of who... who will pay for what, and also also the reparation in occupied territories that are still occupied, and how how people also can get imprisoned there. Therefore, if Russians think that they are a part of resistance, it can be from very small things concerning language or just...
00:57:20
Speaker
just a flag or a doubt and and many people get get in prison also in in occupied territories that are under repression and what will be the reparation of this or the rebuilding for now is unknown and and then all the all that has been in the middle of the the moving zero point of the, of the frontline that is really cities, villages to the ground completely.
International Solidarity and Anarchist Support
00:57:47
Speaker
um So there it's, it's still very, very unclear what, what rebuilding would look like for now. So one of the, and maybe we can end on this, this question, but, you know, one of the stories that hasn't been discussed much is the role of internationalists in Ukraine.
00:58:08
Speaker
Right. I have a friend who who was killed fighting with a small unit of of internationalists in Ukraine. and Cooper. Yeah, Cooper. Both of which, both of the people, Dmitry and Finbar, who Cooper was killed with, had served in the YPG.
00:58:25
Speaker
They'd both done service in Syria. Can you maybe talk a little bit about that story and and what that means, like what this development of kind of ah an anarchist internationalism means, right? like What does it mean to develop connections between people in these conflicts? What does it mean to grapple with the difficulties that emerge in those situations? right Yeah, maybe, can you tell that story a little bit? Maybe we can close on that.
00:58:54
Speaker
As you say, Cooper, Finbar, Lima. i mean, if if if we speak about the comrades who were killed, there is others that we I wouldn't name that that that are alive also.
00:59:08
Speaker
today and that we're in other wars or in Syria or rather like before being here and I think for for people who who had experience from from another war and for all each for their own personal reasons who could understand why to come here comparing to the situation where they grew up or the situation for example fet fleeing from Russia or looking for where is today revolutionary struggles that are meaningful and going there, for example, for Finbar and as understood for
00:59:50
Speaker
For Cooper, the going to a training in the in the Marines for, I guess, an understanding about what is the the need to answer about security in your in your communities and where to learn the skills for.
01:00:08
Speaker
And some other as some that I mentioned before that that didn't come here in the in the ID to to to fight, but pretty fast found himself in the in the legend as well because of the need of it.
01:00:23
Speaker
i mean, I can see that the there was few or it was because of existing... you know relations between comrades relations between comrades and the region here and the and understanding they could have and and trying to bring the help that they could so for for the people who were already soldiers before or had a training, it was this idea that maybe maybe I can help in in this situation as a fighter, or maybe I can help in another way, but with an understanding of of what it can mean to to be active in ah in a war zone. And this is i has has a long history in in the anarchist movement, and today also exists for people, for example, in Rojava, but but also, for example, in Myanmar.
01:01:14
Speaker
it's It's something that exists in our movement and is and about why and how to choose where to go. me, it's a mix of personal understanding of each situation or ah call because of other people that you know that are ah thinking to maybe do something in a place that is currently in a conflict. And because there is, for for here, then there was a call also from from ukrainians for help in the movement i mean like anarchists so so then people answered the call that was and that was made by their comrades as an act of solidarity and again internationalism in the sense of solidarity by by any means to help your comrades in the situation where they are even if it means putting your body on the
01:02:08
Speaker
on the line. and But this is this has a long history in the movement and is still today very very vivid. that There was also, we we call him still Marcy, but that was from England that came also at the beginning i in the answering the call from Ukrainians here. He was saying, you know, people called for help and i came to help.
01:02:37
Speaker
It's as simple as this. And he was a volunteer also for a long time to do evacuations or working in medical work and and then chose to make a contract to be to be an infantry soldier and was was killed eventually here. But in his logic, you know he was, for example, in Calais to help migrants, as we say, migrants, but people in on the move,
01:03:05
Speaker
to to deal with borders basically and to so he was a trying to be there where you know the need for from people who are in worse condition than you a trying to help where this is needed And his logic was kind of the same here in the sense that he wanted to join in units where it was the most help needed. And his logic was that... I remember one thing he was telling me. It was like a week before he was killed.
01:03:37
Speaker
And he he was he was saying, if if people are tired of the war, tell them to come to to to join the fight. There is people struggling here and people need help.
01:03:48
Speaker
And he... He chose to be where was needed. And together with a with this movement that that we have here, to to to try to organize in the conditions as they are.
01:04:04
Speaker
So there was this common solidarity. It can be from... supporting from where you are if you can't move until coming here and put your body in the line in internationalism. I think it works like this, depending on what you can and sometimes what what what is just the people that you meet in in the movement and where you where you end up with the with your understanding of how to say how close you can feel with people who are far away if you consider they're part of of your movement.
01:04:43
Speaker
And in in many ways, the word comrade, companions, is they still very vividly used because it it gives a sense of of how how people can feel, even with people who can be thousands of kilometers i in very different situations, but still this understanding that um on the everyday life you...
01:05:03
Speaker
You have to do something to to be with your comrades, whatever they they they go through and and come with the means that you have. Thank you for that.
01:05:15
Speaker
I really appreciate that. Do you have anything else you want to mention before we close for today? That's something like I can mention that is about the the sense of urgency that there is seen from here.
01:05:29
Speaker
i mean, in in my understanding, when I came, i was thinking it would be 10 years with of war with a lot of escalation. And there is still this sense that this is coming.
01:05:41
Speaker
And in this, for sure, it's going to be... i mean, we want to be able to try to give back the experience from here. of for it to be useful, possibly, to to other comrades worldwide.
01:05:56
Speaker
But also, that there is, a I mean, most likely it's going to, it can pretty rapidly get worse, and with have the changes that that has been happening with ah the radical turn in the administration in the US, for example, and what's then the that has also changed, as I see in Europe,
01:06:18
Speaker
I would like to share this sense of urgency. Here, we will continue to need, like, really any kind of solidarity from whatever means people can have, or to come, or to help make an event or something. And this this will continue, and we will continue to be active too to speak with with everybody who wants to speak with us to to understand what we're doing here.
01:06:42
Speaker
But in the sense of of emergency also to to to understand that it's good to to keep in touch, um writers write letters to to the prisoners who are now in in Russian prisons, be them Ukrainians who were soldiers or or civilians, writing letters, keeping communication.
01:07:07
Speaker
There is still from here this sense that we really don't know at some point Things can change again very, very rapidly. And who knows in what we'll be able to be in communication. Now now we can.
01:07:21
Speaker
ah There is there is a moment when it's possible. So I would say for for everybody that hears this, take contact with us. We're very... we need and we are happy to learn about what's happening anywhere else.
01:07:35
Speaker
It's very hard to follow what's happening outside of Ukraine because it's all the time here. We work really like all day and at the end of the day we are tired. But we want to be able to and give the feedback of what's happening here and also see that that people are also try to find ways to come and help. Is it physically or is it by sending part of, you know, wages?
01:08:02
Speaker
Like anything really. For us, it's a living, a survival question all this. And it's still like this. Thank you very much for joining us.
01:08:20
Speaker
Thanks for listening to today's episode of The Beautiful Idea. News and analysis from the front lines of anarchists and autonomous struggles everywhere. Catch you next time.