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An Interview with International Solidarity Movement Volunteers
200 Plays9 days ago
In this conversation, we speak with two recent International Solidarity Movement (ISM) volunteers about their experiences accompanying Palestinians in the West Bank. International Solidarity Movement is an initiative based in Palestine that enables international volunteers to physically accompany Palestinians facing harassment and attacks from the Israeli occupation. We discuss what everyday resistance — both large and small — looks like for Palestinians in the West Bank. Among many other topics, we explore the ways that ISM volunteers move between what they call “protective presence” and “solidarity” in their accompaniment work, how their experience has shifted or impacted the way they understand anti-colonial resistance more broadly, and what they see on the horizon for Palestine.
This interview was originally conducted immediately following the agreement to a ceasefire between the IDF and Hamas, on January 16th, 2025. Israel violated the ceasefire numerous times from January 19 to March 17, killing at least 170 people in Gaza, averaging nearly three deaths a day. On March 18th, Israel officially broke the ceasefire agreement, and continues to bombard Gaza with air strikes and ground offensives. Gaza is on the verge of famine and a total collapse of healthcare infrastructure, as Israel continues to bar the entry of much-needed medical supplies, fuel, and other humanitarian aid including food and clean water to the region.
As of May 19th, 2025, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health, at least 53,339 people — including at least 17,400 children — have been confirmed killed in Gaza.
Last month, we published an interview with a friend and comrade of Ayşenur Ezgi Eygi, a 26-year-old who was killed by the Israeli Defense Forces on September 6th, 2024, while accompanying Palestinians in the West Bank as an ISM volunteer.
That interview, called “The Murder of Ayşenur Ezgi Eygi and the Future of International Solidarity” is available on our feed and at this link: https://thebeautifulidea.show/the-murder-of-aysenur-ezgi-eygi-and-the-future-of-international-solidarity-2/.
For more information about the work of ISM, visit their website at: https://palsolidarity.org/
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Transcript
Introduction to The Beautiful Idea Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Thanks for listening. to the beautiful idea a podcast from a collective of several anarchist and autonomous media producers scattered around the world we're bringing you interviews and stories from the front lines of autonomous social movements and struggles as well as original commentary and analysis follow us on mastodon and at the beautifulde dot show thanks for listening
00:00:42
Speaker
Hello, and thanks for speaking with me today.
Context: Ceasefire Between Israel and Hamas
00:00:44
Speaker
We're recording this interview on Friday, January 17th, 2025, just two days since the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas was agreed to after 467 days of war.
00:00:56
Speaker
I'm joined now by two former ISM volunteers.
Experiences of Former ISM Volunteers
00:01:00
Speaker
And ISM, for listeners who aren't already familiar, stands for the International Solidarity Movement. And we'll talk more about what it does in just a moment.
00:01:09
Speaker
But first, thank you both for being here. Hope you're doing well. Could you introduce yourselves as you'd like to and say when and for how long you volunteered with ISM? Sure. So i went by Amina in Palestine.
00:01:24
Speaker
I was there for a month in Masfer Yata, which is south of Hebron in the West Bank. I got back just a few months ago. I'm Rivie. I was in the West Bank from late November to late December.
00:01:39
Speaker
And I was also there 14 years ago in 2010. Oh, wow. Okay. That's really, that's an interesting contrast to get into. So I'm going to ask you both about how you're feeling about the ceasefire later on. But first, Amina, could we start with you?
Mission of the International Solidarity Movement
00:01:55
Speaker
Could you explain what ISM is and and what it does?
00:01:58
Speaker
So International Solidarity Movement, it's been building relationships throughout Palestine, you know, since the second Antifada. And it basically is a way for international activists to provide protective presence in regions that are under the most accelerated threat of land seizure, ethnic cleansing, settler attacks, army intervention, and whatnot.
00:02:25
Speaker
And it is Palestinian-led on the ground in that we go where we are asked for additional presents. And by presents, I mean it could be staying in the villages with the families to document and to help with their daily work, such as olive harvesting or shepherding.
00:02:45
Speaker
What ISM did prior to October 7th, like in decades past, I think has looked very different than what ISM does now, just based on the type of increased repression from the occupation.
00:02:58
Speaker
Could you speak a little bit more to that? Like what is the... Yeah, in the past, ISM did a lot more direct action, dismantling the wall, things like that, that currently ISM is not involved in and I don't believe being asked to do because the increased violence from the occupation against people doing any kind of direct action.
00:03:17
Speaker
that's ah That's a good point to bring up too. Since October 7th, it's been the biggest increase in illegal settlements and settlement outposts that have ever been constructed throughout the West Bank. So they feel very supported by the occupation and by Western backing to construct those things now. So villages that were previously not under attack are being surrounded and encroached by new outposts.
00:03:39
Speaker
So that's kind of more the focus of ISM since October 7th. Thanks for that overview, both of you. Can you give now a little bit of an overview of the geography and the political landscape in the West Bank?
00:03:52
Speaker
What was the situation on the ground when you were both there, when you arrived? and And also, what does it mean to support the popular resistance in Palestine? Like, what does that look like on the dayto- day to day?
Control Dynamics in the West Bank
00:04:05
Speaker
Well, an overview of the geography and political landscape is a huge question, but there are three different areas in the West Bank, Area A, B, and C. Area A is controlled by the Palestinian Authority, supposedly on all matters.
00:04:18
Speaker
Area B has Israeli military control over security matters and then supposedly Palestinian authority over civil matters. And Area C is completely controlled by the occupation. I would say most of ISM's work happens in Area C because that is where there's the most clash between settlers and Palestinians and military and Palestinians because the occupation is controlling those areas.
00:04:41
Speaker
I think it's important to highlight just the difference in area A, B, and C. The biggest thing I saw and was shown by Palestinians was just what are such minor restrictions on daily life imposed by the occupation, like restrictions on what construction materials are allowed in, what permits are granted,
00:05:03
Speaker
even though the grand majority, over 90% of building permits by Palestinians are rejected by the occupation in the West Bank. It limits ah whether concrete or cement is allowed in. So you have these settler civil administration patrolling the area. And even though they agree that it's technically Palestinian land, they will come and harass you and threaten to come back with the army to dismantle a new shed or a newborn donkey that a Palestinian family has built and things like that, that is all just kind of bureaucracy weaponized in ways that there's nothing like any of us coming from the US, s at least, will have ever experienced.
00:05:41
Speaker
So I think the biggest takeaway for me from what I saw of just small examples of resistance was that even if you file all the correct paperwork, if you play by the occupation's rules,
00:05:53
Speaker
you know, you will not get your permit granted, you'll still come and get attacked the very next day that you build something within the law that they claim is the law. And that was the resistance that I saw ah people saying like, yes, look, we are playing by your rules, you're still inflicting violence upon us, but we're still going to, you know, farm and graze and cultivate our land. And we'll still respond when you attack us in that process.
00:06:18
Speaker
So it's this really big kind of like postmodern mix of resistance as filing bureaucratic paperwork and reappealing, refiling, you know, submitting documents to lawyers, submitting construction permits, and then also just the confrontations that you have with the extremist settlers that come armed and masked with pipes and rocks to throw at you, and then the army that comes to back them up.
00:06:43
Speaker
And I don't know, just the the daily... contrasts of the mundanities and the violence is kind of what stuck out to me as the day-to-day resistance there. Thanks for that.
00:06:54
Speaker
Thanks for that answer. And i'm wondering if you could also add what what does it look like to support the popular resistance? amina And then, Rivi, going to ask you the same question. Yeah. for
Impact of ISM Volunteers: Protective Presence
00:07:03
Speaker
For me, what i experienced supporting that was just actually feeling like you're your presence is very welcome and very important there because, i mean, there, undeniably, there is the importance of that you know Western you know European or American passport.
00:07:18
Speaker
you're not going to be subject to the same cruelty and repression and legal consequences that any pale Palestinian will be. So by virtue of your presence with that passport, which you keep on you at all times to show for that purpose, there is kind a Yeah, I think that's great question.
00:07:37
Speaker
the sadler is who trespass and ah ah even try to break into palestinian homes and sometimes just the novel i mean you know you're under constant surveillance when you're there by the occupation and by the settlers because they build these outposts with high-te security and surveillance they come and try to break Palestinians security cameras and stuff. So the playing field is never fully equal. But the knowledge of international activists being in a Palestinian home is often really all it takes for them to delay their planned attack on a particular piece of land.
00:08:11
Speaker
And, you know, it almost sounds too good to be like accurate. But when you get there, you actually see them sometimes do the their patrols and try to show up and then They see that there are people and sometimes journalists also present documenting their actions.
00:08:25
Speaker
And it does temporarily, at least maybe just for that day, just for while you're there, delay whatever they had planned. um And that's what the Palestinians have expressed. And that's what they feel.
00:08:37
Speaker
They say, we think the army is coming tonight. Can you please have somebody stay with us? Because it'll be different if others are there. think one of the tricky things about protective presence is that the better it works, the less it feels like it's working. Like if you're there and and no incidences are happening, it feels a little bit like, what am I doing here?
00:08:56
Speaker
But that is protective presence working. And I feel like there can be a feeling like, oh, I'm always in the wrong place at the wrong time. The incident didn't happen where I was. The incident happened at a house, a different house than the one I was staying at.
00:09:09
Speaker
But again, that's protective presence working. The incident didn't happen where you are because of being there, because of internationals being there. that's it that yeah That's a really interesting way of framing it. yeah that the The more effective it is, the less notable maybe you you feel it is.
00:09:27
Speaker
So i'm ah I'm also wondering something that came up when we were sort of planning out how we wanted this interview to go together was this difference between accompaniment and solidarity.
Accompaniment vs. Solidarity in Palestinian Resistance
00:09:38
Speaker
If, Ribi, maybe you could speak to that a little bit, because I think it's a distinction that's been made when talking about ISM before. Yeah, so I think that there are places, and especially this is true of my experience in Mas Friyata in the South, where a lot of resistance looks like people just living their lives, trying to stay on their land and live the lives that they have always lived.
00:09:59
Speaker
And that is where we're doing accompaniment. In other places, the resistance looks more like having demonstrations or actively fighting back when people come onto their land. I was there during nearby to several settler buses being shot by armed resistance.
00:10:17
Speaker
And when you're in places where there's more direct violence coming from the Palestinians and demonstrations, it's less accompaniment and more solidarity what you're doing. So in demonstrations,
00:10:29
Speaker
You know, the army is not necessarily distinguishing between who's a Palestinian and who's an international. Obviously, we can see that very clearly with Aishanur's murder. She was um an American citizen.
00:10:41
Speaker
And similarly in Kusra, where I was, when the occupation, occupation forces would come into town, snipers would come into town at night. And it didn't matter if I was a Palestinian or an American, they're not making that distinction.
00:10:54
Speaker
We were there with the Palestinian youth in the streets when the snipers were there. in solidarity, but we weren't really doing accompaniment. Our presence did not mean there was going to be less violence.
00:11:05
Speaker
We were there to build trust with the Palestinian youth who were resisting. Thanks for that. I think that's a really, really helpful and useful distinction. I'm wondering if you could speak also to why maybe that is, or like, what is it about the context in in a given space or location that makes it more of an accompaniment space versus more of a solidarity?
00:11:28
Speaker
space. Yeah, I was just going to say, i don't know how useful it is to say which is more effective than the other. Like you both also said, you won't know because it was effective and you won't know what the outcome would have been if you hadn't been there for either accompaniment or solidarity.
00:11:47
Speaker
But accompaniment can also turn into solidarity work. For instance, if there is resistance among the youth occurring during protective presence, I think it's all really interlinked and that they shouldn't be viewed as in contrast to each other. um i think both are ah the same form of solidarity work, you know, whether it's at a demonstration or in somebody's home.
00:12:10
Speaker
And it's really just about the Palestinians around you that are dictating what the situation will will call for, at least in my experience. Yeah, I think what I meant was more the difference between accompaniment and solidarity being more how the occupation views what's happening rather than anything about what's more or less effective.
00:12:30
Speaker
Yeah. Gotcha. And it it sounds like it's also not really something that's in anyone's control, right? Yeah, yeah. The yeah occupation starts, the yeah they're they're always the ones throwing the first stone, so to speak.
00:12:44
Speaker
Yeah, it fluctuates. So to answer your question as to why sometimes it looks more like accompaniment, protective presence, I should say, and why sometimes it looks more like solidarity, with the distinction that i kind of already described.
00:12:57
Speaker
I think it's based on the occupation and the, I think the history of each place kind of dictates how the occupation views people or actions within that place. So like the beta demos, which is where Aishinor was killed, the beta demo starts with just a bunch of people praying on the ground in a small playground.
00:13:18
Speaker
I mean, that you can't get more kind of quote unquote peaceful than that, but The Beta Demo is a place where there's a lot of violence from the occupation. It's not a place that ISM considers us doing protective presence because they don't feel like our presence is protective in that way.
00:13:34
Speaker
The Beta Demo is a place ISM in general considers our work to be solidarity. We're there to be in solidarity with the Palestinians, but it's a different type of work than the protective presence.
00:13:46
Speaker
And that even if the Palestinians, whether they're throwing stones or not, whether they're praying, the Beta Demo is a place where the occupation views, it as as as violence and a direct threat to them.
00:13:57
Speaker
Yep. Gotcha. That's exactly right. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. That's really helpful. So sort of building off of that last question, i'm wondering if you all could go into more specifics about the forms of resistance to the occupation that you saw Palestinians engaging in during your time on the ground there,
00:14:16
Speaker
Rivi, you mentioned seeing armed resistance at an event that you were present at on the ground. So I'm wondering if you all could talk about different examples of resistance that you saw during your time there.
Palestinian Resistance Through Everyday Acts
00:14:27
Speaker
Sure. i keep going back to how much it sticks out to me about the, you know, the the bureaucracy and that can also be seen in the checkpoints and all of the other. I mean, I don't need to get into the background of all of that repression that is daily life for Palestinians in the West Bank. But for instance, during the olive harvest, something I didn't realize before going there to help with the olive harvest was that Palestinians have to apply for permits from the army to actually harvest on their own land.
00:14:57
Speaker
And this is largely determined by settlers in the area who may then have the power to say, no, you know, that particular group of families can't harvest that day because I need to transport a cow or a goat that day. And it's very dangerous for me, ah settler, if they are also in the area.
00:15:16
Speaker
So it's obviously completely arbitrary. It's an extra roadblock and hurdle. And a you know common form of resistance in that regard is that Palestinians will obviously still harvest olives on their own land. There were cases of Palestinians whose homes were burnt down by settlers you know with the army present and watching and nothing coming of that, obviously, justice-wise, how we define justice. But they would still return to that land. They would still harvest the olives even next to their burnt-down houses,
00:15:47
Speaker
There was a lot of collective punishment attempted to be enacted in that the occupation would say, if you have international volunteers present with you during your olive harvest, you know, that means your entire village can't harvest olives unless they're gone.
00:16:02
Speaker
And, you know, Palestinians reject that. They reject the permits sometimes. You know, like Rivi said, it's literally just waking up in the West Bank as a Palestinian every single day is resistance and just going about their lives as though they were free from the occupation um is the resistance that I most saw.
00:16:24
Speaker
And I guess another one would be ah gradual decolonization in the form of people taking their land back. by returning to villages and places that they were expelled from and attempted ethnically cleansed from. You know, you don't really hear about that as like, you know, winning report backs, but that's happening on a smaller scale all the time throughout the West Bank, that they come back and they rebuild, you know, things get burned down and demolished by bulldozers. I saw that a lot.
00:16:54
Speaker
And just the the knowledge that they will come back is something that you see all the time. Yeah, in Khusra, there is a lot of Palestinian youth.
00:17:05
Speaker
I don't really know how to talk about the Shabab in Khusra. don't want throw anyone under the bus. i was I would say to that end that like the the occupation is going to say that people were throwing stones, whether or not they were actually throwing stones.
00:17:19
Speaker
But also the youth do throw stones. And i think that I think it's important not to minimize those actions and say the Palestinians were only peaceful because... No, exactly. That's, that's absolutely, you know, I was absolutely getting to that too.
00:17:31
Speaker
Especially in Khusra, like the youth are from, you know, the age of six, seven years old, the Palestinian boys are fighting. I mean, they're fighting settlers who come with machine guns into their land.
00:17:43
Speaker
Yeah. You know, and it's both, mean, wild to see children as young as six or seven, you know, yelling, oh, come fight me. If you're a real man, come fight me to settlers who are on their land.
00:17:55
Speaker
And it's simultaneously, i mean, it's very cool in some ways to see how fierce these kids are and how know passionate they are. And also, it's just, it fills me with a lot of grief that these kids are treated as enemy combatants from the time they're six, seven years old, and how difficult it must be to be soft if you're a Palestinian boy growing up under the occupation.
00:18:25
Speaker
Yeah, I completely agree. And I i mean, yeah, it's it's it's absolutely remarkable to see how resistance in youth is the the default there. I mean, it's not something that can be taught, even, you know, even stone throwing aside, just in small examples, if it's okay to share kind of a adjacent anecdote about resistance youth and how that shifted my perspective about an aspect of it because i I was kind of sharing this story in real time to my remote support you know group chat where I had you know people back home who I would check in with every day and give vague updates about and stuff.
Youth Resistance and Safety Perceptions
00:19:08
Speaker
And it triggered a pretty interesting discussion. But so when I was staying over
00:19:13
Speaker
where a home in a very remote village village with a family who had been under some of the most severe attacks from settlers because of the outposts that had been you know increasingly constructed all around encircling them.
00:19:31
Speaker
And would At one point, you know, settlers had come and this particular day that I was there, they they didn't break in or ah assault the adults, but it was a very for recurring pattern.
00:19:45
Speaker
That's what I'll say. Basically, fear and trauma is was very high in that particular place. And the kids, though, after the settlers were successfully made to go away, ah you know, we were having kind of a dance party.
00:19:59
Speaker
You know, when we were playing like Leave a Palestina, you know, the the Swedish song and some other kind of Palestinian type national anthem remixes and everything that they all knew. The same songs that get played at these like, you know, peaceful marches that are in the U.S., the same exact songs. But these kids were um like Ruby was saying also, you know, six years old, seven, eight, whatever They were waving Palestinian flags on long wires, and they were standing on the hilltops, basically, where all of the settlement outposts could absolutely see that, the the same ones that were made to retreat.
00:20:38
Speaker
And another i volunteer that I was with there started telling the kids to put the Palestinian flags inside, you know, that we shouldn't be playing this music, that we shouldn't be waving the flags because the settlers will come back.
00:20:52
Speaker
because they'll view this as provocation and that, you know, the adults are maybe not very close by and that it's us by ourselves, the kids by themselves. It's extremely dangerous. And I found myself like really agreeing with that because my instinct there is to protect the kids from these settlers who I feel utter rage about for doing what they do to all of these families. And you know So I was like, yeah, yeah, maybe we better go inside. But then another um international who was actually power Palestinian himself kind of added like, no, fuck that.
00:21:24
Speaker
These kids need to be able to express themselves this way and not be made to feel afraid of. And that really shifted something for me because I didn't realize as it was happening that this little like flag-waving dance party that we were having was a form of resistance in and of itself.
00:21:42
Speaker
Because to me, it then... was presented as danger, something that needs to be shut down for everyone's safety. But no, that it just really, really clarified something for me in that very moment. And it's something that I shifted my perspective about how I view resistance back home too.
00:22:00
Speaker
i don't know if that winding anecdote made sense, but it was really impactful. Like the the kids understand it more and more. And you then we're taught we're neutered basically to be like, no, don't do that. That'll endanger you. That'll endanger the people around you. That'll endanger the march.
00:22:18
Speaker
You know, the police will retaliate. The settlers will retaliate. The army will come. And all of this disguised in this like Western mindset coddling is what's keeping us back mentally. And I don't know, for me, that was that that was really eye opening.
00:22:35
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That's a really, that's a really helpful story. i'm I'm actually wondering, you said this, this impacted or shifted something for you when you thought about resistance back home too.
Influence of Palestinian Experiences on U.S. Perspectives
00:22:46
Speaker
And I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit more to that.
00:22:48
Speaker
Well, I just saw the same parallels about how, i mean, it it feels like such an inconsequential parallel to even draw to be like, you know, at a at a big march where they're like, we must be peaceful because otherwise the police will attack. But, you know, the police will attack regardless. The settlers will attack regardless.
00:23:05
Speaker
You know, all of the the caution wrapped in this is for your safety is is actually more furthering. you know, the oppressor's goals or the police's goals or the army's goals, the occupation's goals. And i don't know. I think the biggest takeaway is that, yeah, the kids should be able to express themselves without fear and not be, you know, not be told to stop for their own alleged safety.
00:23:30
Speaker
And it's something we've internalized so much in the U.S. as well that like, don't do this. It's for your safety. And it's something that I think, you know, we say like decolonize your mind. And I think that's a really big, important part of that.
00:23:43
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you. Rivi, did you have anything else to add to this question? Amina's story about the flag waving just reminded me of in Kusra while I was there, a man who was murdered standing on his roof with his daughter.
00:23:54
Speaker
And we went to the funeral the next day. And ah funeral was a kind of a procession from the hospital, which was in Nablus, I think, although I should look that up, the hospital where he was taken back to Kusra.
00:24:08
Speaker
and then through the streets of Khusra, and how there's hundreds of people marching through the streets, and it was simultaneously both like full of grief and people, I mean, his family and his friends, sobbing and stricken, and also waving you know flags of pretty much every different Palestinian resistance movement, and how how the the grief and the resistance are so intertwined when death is so part of your daily experience in Palestine. Hmm.
00:24:37
Speaker
There's not time for grief and time for resistance, but that your grief is part of the resistance. and Thank you. These are such incredible answers. Seriously, thank you both.
00:24:49
Speaker
i'm I'm wondering if if you could both talk a little bit about why you first decided to work with ISM to go to Palestine.
00:25:00
Speaker
Rivi, maybe you could start. I decided to work with ISM because I felt like of all the different groups that I was personally aware of doing solidarity work in Palestine,
00:25:11
Speaker
ISM seemed the most in line with my politics as an anarchist, both that it at least had a history of doing direct action and was consensus-based were two of the things that drew me to it, in addition to just having known people from my community who had already volunteered with ISM.
00:25:27
Speaker
And i'm I'm just curious, had you been to Palestine before you traveled there to work with ISM? I was in Palestine 14 years ago in 2010. And at that time, I was just traveling by myself.
00:25:39
Speaker
But I ended up at demonstrations with people from ISM. So I talked to people from ISM then, but I was not part of ISM when I was in Palestine 14 years ago. And Amina, what led you to work with ISM?
00:25:51
Speaker
um Yeah, just echoing what Ravi said, it seemed the most aligned with my own politics and anarchist principles. I had heard of it before through knowing about Rachel Corey, and I actually didn't realize that it was still ongoing when I sent you know my, like, I'm interested in going email.
00:26:12
Speaker
And then basically a day after i did that, we received news of Aishinor's murder. And the fact that that didn't shift anything for me, that it still felt equally important, if not more important to go, i i think really solidified for me that it was the right decision the right time. Wow.
00:26:30
Speaker
So you you applied to go just a day before Aishinor was murdered? Yeah, I read about it the day before and then told my first, you know, close friend and comrade in my affinity group that I was doing it. And yeah, a few hours later, that same friend sent me the news about Aishinor. And yeah, kind of had to battle some thoughts about how I was scared to hear things like, why would somebody choose to do this?
00:26:58
Speaker
It's, you know, are people trying to be martyrs when they could be doing so much more good if they stay at home and things like that. and But thankfully, that was pretty easy to shut down and wasn't anything that I heard from anyone.
00:27:12
Speaker
Yeah, i'm' I'm actually curious, how did you how did you shut that down? Because I think that is a common ah common refrain that people hear when talking about accompaniment work in general.
00:27:23
Speaker
And I'm curious if you could talk a little bit more about that process for yourself. and I didn't feel like I was making a direct impact by anything that I was doing at home, even direct actions or attending demonstrations. I mean, donating to fundraising campaigns because I had, you know, the physical ability, including like able-bodiedness, of course, which is kind of a pretty excluding factor, unfortunately, because it is like physically hard.
00:27:50
Speaker
to go there. I had that, I had the ability to afford it because of my job, all of these things put together. that was actually ah more impactful thing that I could do when there's a lot of feelings of powerlessness that I was feeling. And a lot of people I know are still feeling about how, yeah, like what can we actually do for Palestine or for any other liberation, the struggle elsewhere.
00:28:15
Speaker
And yeah, and in this case, the answer indeed was that this was something that made a direct impact. I want to add on really fast about what Amina was saying about people saying like, why are you, are you going to be a martyr?
00:28:28
Speaker
i just want to add because it was really hard for me to find parents who'd gone to Palestine. And so I just in case anyone's listening, who's also a parent, I'm I got a lot of pushback like, oh, what you're doing is dangerous to your child. What if something happens to you while you're in Palestine and your child has to grow up without you?
00:28:45
Speaker
And that was really hard to hear. But i for me, it felt so important to distinguish between what is best for my child as a white Jewish American citizen. And if I always do only what's best for my child, I will be upholding white supremacy.
00:29:01
Speaker
and that what is best for the safety of children in the world is sometimes in direct conflict was what is the safest thing for my child. And that still felt like an important decision to be able to make and go to Palestine anyway.
00:29:14
Speaker
i just wanted add that on because it felt very hard to find parents who had been part of ISM to talk to. That's really beautiful. I just, yeah, I can't imagine what it was like to be a parent there. there There was someone in Masfariyatza when I was there who was a mom as well. And she She said very similar things to what you just said about how she had to tell a lot of people that it you know she has children, but also Palestinians are everyone's children, too.
00:29:37
Speaker
When I was at the hospital after before the the beginning of the funeral in Khusra for the man who was smarted That day that we were driving there from Kusra to the hospital was a day that there was attacks attacks by the occupation all over the area in in the refugee camps. And as we were driving, it's only like a 45-minute drive, but we were hearing like, oh, three more people martyred here, three more people martyred in this refugee camp, three more people martyred in this camp.
00:30:03
Speaker
And when we got to the hospital, we were standing outside the hospital with the crowd that was gathering, and they started bringing ah bodies by. And one of the bodies they brought by was a small child. And as a parent, that was incredibly hard to keep it together.
00:30:17
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds extremely intense and and difficult, especially as a parent. And thanks for sharing that that story. Many people come into nonviolent accompaniment work like the kind that ISM does because they believe in nonviolence specifically as a strategy of resistance to displacement, to colonization, to war.
00:30:42
Speaker
I'm wondering how how did y'all's experience in Palestine impact your understanding of the role of accompaniment, if it did impact it at all?
Challenges in Building Relationships in Palestine
00:30:53
Speaker
And what is your analysis of the work that ISM does? Yeah, I think one of the really challenging things about doing, as internationals, doing work in Palestine is that I think Anywhere in the world, the main thing that allows solidarity work to be successful and meaningful is building relationships with people.
00:31:14
Speaker
And it's just inherently going to be challenging when the maximum amount of time you can stay in Palestine is three months at any given time. So I think, I mean, and that's not a critique of the work. That's just, it's just a roadblock to building lasting relationships and doing meaningful solidarity work in Palestine.
00:31:34
Speaker
as an international, is that every three months you have to leave. And the more times you come back, the harder and harder it becomes to enter the country. And I'm i'm actually just curious because I don't know, does ISM work with Israeli volunteers as well? Or are the people that work with ISM exclusively from outside of Israel-Palestine?
00:31:59
Speaker
ISM exclusively works with internationals, and then Palestinian coordinators on the ground. There are, Mas Faryata, especially where I was, there are a number of people who hold Israeli citizenship who are not Palestinian, who work kind of in tandem with ISM, but are very explicitly not part of ISM.
00:32:20
Speaker
But I also, those folks do not consider themselves to be Israelis. And I think that comes less from ah desire to separate themselves from the privilege of having Israeli citizenship and more to do with the fact that they really wanted to impress upon me that there is no pro-Palestine solidarity movement within Israel and to not to mistake their work in the West Bank as being any kind of Israeli movement.
00:32:48
Speaker
And I think they, when I called them Israelis, they were like, we're not Israelis. There is no Israeli movement against the occupation. Hmm. Yeah, I would agree with that. hold They sometimes call themselves the Hebrew speakers to kind of distinguish between what do you what are any kind of Israeli movement. What do you think that's about for them? Like not wanting to be... What do they mean by saying there is no pro-Palestine movement within... There is no Israeli pro-Palestine movement.
00:33:16
Speaker
Well, they're defectors in that way, right? They're they're not representative of ah a movement when they they do work in the West Bank. Because... It doesn't exist like the the grand majority, the absolute grand majority of everyone living within 48 supports ethnic cleansing, supports the genocide in Gaza, supports annexation and destruction of the West Bank. I mean, you know, these these are major outliers who are there as, you know, humans who in most cases were born there, but found their way to resist where they can as well.
00:33:52
Speaker
You know, they is the the occupation can't deport them like they can deport us. So but that's the the the main privilege of their citizenship. Ruby, did you have any did you have anything to add to that?
00:34:05
Speaker
No, I mean, I guess i can't speak for I can't speak for them as to why they felt so strongly not to make that distinction. All I can say is that for me as a Jewish person, i it ah it felt inspiring to see that there were people, some people at least, a few people who had Israeli citizenship that were giving up a lot of their, who were working in solidarity with the Palestinians.
00:34:30
Speaker
And when I said that to them, They, their response was like, we are not an Israeli movement. Like don't consider us. We're like, we don't consider ourselves Israeli because we think that gives the impression that there is an Israeli movement against the occupation and there's not.
00:34:44
Speaker
So I can't really speak like beyond that, but I think it was more just like a pessimism about, I don't know. One of the Israeli citizens who has been working against the occupation for decades said on my very first day in Palestine,
00:35:00
Speaker
we were asked what our hopes and fears were. And they said, i don't have any hope, but I don't think this movement requires hope to act. And I really agree with that. That really resonated with me.
00:35:12
Speaker
Yeah. ah ah Wow. You guys keep kind of dropping like totally new thought pieces to consider the end of each question here. i can kind of try to readdress the question about the nonviolent accompaniment work.
00:35:27
Speaker
Yeah, sure. i think I think it's sort of related to this this last piece you just
ISM's Nonviolent Movement Strategy and Ethics
00:35:32
Speaker
said, right? About like, you don't need hope to act. So maybe if you could maybe if you could link those things, that I think that would be really interesting.
00:35:42
Speaker
I think that for ISM to continue doing the work that they do, it is critical that they identify themselves as a nonviolent movement, because if not, the occupation would label it a terrorist group immediately and it would just stop all all of their ability to work. So I think it's in that sense for an or for any organization to be doing Palestinian solidarity work as an organization, it is like crucial for them to to be nonviolent.
00:36:07
Speaker
I do think that many people... come to ISM who do not necessarily follow the principles of nonviolence or don't ethically believe in the principles of nonviolence. So I want to make a distinction between ISM is a nonviolent movement because you have to be in order to be doing work in Palestine. But I think many people who join ISM are anarchists and don't ethically make a distinction between violence and nonviolence as like an ethical, an ethical line. hmm.
00:36:33
Speaker
So it sounds like it's it's almost like a strategic identification as nonviolent rather than an ideological one. Yeah, and it's a strategic, not only ah strategic wording, but it I mean, strategically just it is, I think for many people in ISM, including myself, violent versus nonviolent is never an ethical line. It's almost always a strategic line.
00:36:56
Speaker
For instance, as members of ISM, we are not able to participate And as internationals, there are many ways in which we should not be participating in violent acts of resistance, because, you you know, if somebody is going to make that choice and Palestinians are going to get the blowback, that choice should be made by a Palestinian, of course.
00:37:14
Speaker
But in Mas Faryata, one of the ways that we felt like we could support, for instance, the settler bus, there was a settler bus that was shot up by a Palestinian armed resistance fighter while we were there.
00:37:25
Speaker
We obviously played no role in that. We were not in the same places that was happening. But one of the ways that we wanted to support from afar Palestinians making those choices was to agree in Mas Faryata.
00:37:39
Speaker
We had a consensus vote that we would not take any settler buses, any of the bus systems that go between the settlements in the West Bank, part of the apartheid bus system. The only reason for an ISM person to take a settler bus is for convenience.
00:37:53
Speaker
You can always get where you wanted to go Without taking a settler bus, it might just take a lot longer. And one of the reasons that we did that, partly because we didn't want to give any money or implicit support to the occupation.
00:38:06
Speaker
But the other reason was, if you were on a settler bus, you are going to inherently hope that that settler bus is not attacked by a Palestinian resistance fighter. And we didn't want to put ourselves even just mentally in this role of hoping that Palestinians are not fighting back because our life might be on the line.
00:38:24
Speaker
Hmm. So we agreed that if somebody you know if somebody broke that consensus, it would be a case-by-case basis, but they might be asked to leave ISM. And that was just a ah decision made in Massafariata. That wasn't ISM-wide.
00:38:36
Speaker
We were going to bring it to a wider meeting, but we never did. While I was there, I left before it was brought to a wider vote. but I think there are ways in which you you want to protect yourself. And so if you are putting yourself in a position in which Palestinians fighting back could harm you,
00:38:54
Speaker
There is a way in which you are hoping they are not going to fight back. oh And felt important to us to make sure that we were not putting ourselves in those positions for convenience. um Did you ever discuss that with the Palestinians that you were that you were accompanying?
00:39:12
Speaker
At that time, when we had that discussion and that vote, it was brought up that there were the Palestinian, some of the Palestinians we worked with in Mas Faryata had specified that they had no issue with the internationals taking those buses.
00:39:27
Speaker
And that was only a few, that was just a few people's opinions. That was not necessarily, we didn't talk to like a wider Palestinian community about it or anything. But to me, it felt, it still felt important.
00:39:39
Speaker
whether or not the Palestinians that we were working with Mas Fariyata had wanted us not to take the buses. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. So i'm I'm wondering if there's anything else that you want to add to this question around the work that ISM does and and the role of nonviolent accompaniment work.
00:39:57
Speaker
I agree with everything that Rivi has added. And I have to admit that when i was also, you know, told that we shouldn't take settler buses because they're dangerous, i um I actually assumed that meant because of settler violence and that they would, you know, ID you and notice you that you don't belong there and are clearly part of you know so ah internationalism, resistance and stuff.
00:40:22
Speaker
ah So that's how much of my ah mental framework has shifted to that. I realized pretty quickly that that cautionary note was actually about you know what what Palestinian resistance might do a shooting operation against those buses.
00:40:37
Speaker
And yeah, and Ruby put it really perfectly that it's ah it's a bad mental, not bad, but it's um it's an incongruent with my principles as well to hope that there's not resistance out of my own convenience.
Perception of ISM as a Threat by Israeli Authorities
00:40:52
Speaker
You know, and that that applies to not accidentally standing in the way when, you know, Shabab are throwing rocks, like, You know, you don't want to it's friendly fire if so, but it kind of messes everyone up if you're worried about yourself or putting yourself between what would be happening regardless of if you were there or not.
00:41:09
Speaker
So yeah, that that that was a pretty neat way to get closure about that when when when I realized that's what the bus note was about.
00:41:20
Speaker
I'm not really sure what i but I have to add about that. I mean, the the occupation is going to call us violent foreign anarchists who are dead set on making up lies about the the peaceful, observant religious settlers um and that we're the ones who are setting ah you know setting cars on fire and causing violence and that we are the ones that need to have ah a fucking like occupation task force formed against to hunt and then trap and deport.
00:41:48
Speaker
But that also goes to show that even if it sometimes doesn't feel like Protective Presence is doing anything, the major emphasis that you know the occupation is putting on finding us and stopping us from entering the West Bank kind of shows that we've are actually kind of a threat to their plans. And that to me is reason enough to want to keep going for as long as I can and to come back for as long as of course the Palestinians will have us and me there.
00:42:15
Speaker
Thank you. So ah kind of, again, building off of that, i'm I'm wondering what sort of international solidarity do you all think would be the most strategically effective in anti-colonial struggle? That's very big question.
00:42:33
Speaker
amina I mean, think you you've already spoken to this a little bit, but we can come back to you in a second. Rivi, do you have an initial answer for that question? i mean, I think that's a huge question. And also, I mean, one of the reasons I went to Palestine is because it felt so, all the international solidarity i was seeing felt so fruitless and so hopeless.
00:42:58
Speaker
But one of I mean, one of the things this question brings to mind is, how surprised I was by a number of internationals I met in Palestine, some working with ISM and some working with other organizations who had a very strong anti-colonial critique of Israel's occupation of Palestine, but were very proud nationalists of their own countries.
00:43:20
Speaker
And so i think there there can be a tendency to see what's happening in in Palestine as separate from the colonization and anti-colonial struggles back at home. That's true very much so here in the United States, but also in many other countries, in many European countries, the anti-colonial struggle might not be within their country. It might be against, you know, where their country is occupying outside of their borders.
00:43:48
Speaker
But I think that was one of the takeaways I had was just how much Palestinian anti-colonial work requires making the connection with anti-colonial work around the rest of the world and fighting against nationalism all over the world.
00:44:03
Speaker
Thanks. Amina, do you have anything to add to that? Yeah, and i definitely agree with that as well. And I don't know, just yeah and you also asked me earlier about, you know, what um what did I mean by taking that lesson home?
00:44:16
Speaker
And as part of anti-colonial work, anti-imperialist work, I do think kind of killing the individualism that we have in our respective countries, is like one of the ways that I think we are kept really defanged is by the constant threat of isolation. You know, we're told if if we resist, we'll lose our jobs, we'll lose our freedom via incarceration, we'll lose our connections to our community because we're incarcerated.
00:44:46
Speaker
We'll lose our livelihood. We'll lose our reputation because, you know, even publications will dox us for even minor violations if we're not imprisoned. um ah The goal is to isolate, isolate, to remind us that we're isolated.
00:45:00
Speaker
and I was thinking about, ever you know, all the people I talked to in Palestine and you won't really find a village anywhere that doesn't, is where it's not the case that every man or every person teen Even over the age of 18 hasn't suffered from the regime by being imprisoned in an an Israeli military prison.
00:45:20
Speaker
And they it's not a threat to them. you know I mean, even martyrdom is not the same threat there. And they will never feel that the occupation can threaten them with anything that they can't handle, that they won't have support from their families and their communities and their villages and even now the international community from.
00:45:36
Speaker
But here we're told that if we take any kind of risk at home when we're not abroad, or if we take a risk when we're abroad, that it'll carry back to us. It'll harm our families. It'll harm us. It'll effectively kill us. And I would love to do anything I could to fight back against that because and unfortunately that threat very much works perfectly.
00:45:57
Speaker
on me too. You know, I stayed so unarrestable with, you know, a clean internet presence and stuff like that, knowing that I would have to, you know, ah be interrogated by Israeli border agents so on my way in to do solidarity work in the US Bank, you know, like one arrest. And that's, that's all it'll cost you, your ability to continue the fights, to continue supporting the resistance. And I don't know, just something I still think about, and I don't have an answer to, but we just, you know, the the the threats have really worked on us.
00:46:26
Speaker
And i don't know how we can have hope or move. We don't need hope, like Ravi said, but I don't know how we can move forward until we kill that that voice in our head and actually say that, no, we will support our prisoners.
00:46:37
Speaker
You know, we will do jail support, prison support. We will prevent our comrades from being taken. we we just don't have that. We don't have the guarantee yeah ah fighting against isolation.
00:46:48
Speaker
And that's that the thing that it'll take for us to actually do anything of impact here or abroad. um i don't know. Hmm. Thank you. Yeah. So you're saying that to kill that that voice in our head, we need to fight against isolation. Do you want to say a little bit more about how you think we kill that voice?
00:47:08
Speaker
Well, I mean, yeah, even just contrasting like prisoner like Palestinian prisoner support networks to, you know, prisoner support networks elsewhere, it's it's really different. It's not the severity of the prisons. I mean, obviously, i think we can all agree that the Israeli military prisons are committing murder and torture and isolation at a greater rate. But I mean...
00:47:30
Speaker
The prisons in the U.S. are death camps, too. You know, we have legalized slavery with those. It's just as bad here and just going to keep getting worse. And I don't know. I mean, I think the for people who can't go abroad to participate in this internationalist struggle physically as frontliners, i mean, just prisoner support and prisoner solidarity.
Fighting Isolation: Support for Prisoners and Community Networks
00:47:51
Speaker
That's letter writing, you know, that's... That's advocating for campaigns, that's doing court supports, that's commissary, that's so many things that can be done. i think just the the message of you are not alone is what keeps a lot of Palestinian resistance alive, because nobody will ever fully feel alone participating in that struggle. And we just don't have that here.
00:48:13
Speaker
So um sorry, that's not really fully fledged out. kind of occurred to me as we were talking, but I do like to support it to abolitionist struggle here. It's it's all connected, right? Yeah, absolutely.
00:48:26
Speaker
Thank you. Before we move on to the next question, Ribi, I wanted to circle back to something that you said earlier around this thing that someone said when when you first came to Palestine that was that you don't need hope in order to take action.
00:48:42
Speaker
And you said that that really resonated with you. And I'm wondering if you could just say a little bit more about why why that resonated with you so much. I think that resonated with me because i think a a lot of my politics as an anarchist are about acting without hope.
00:49:02
Speaker
Because i I think, I mean, there are so many crises facing us all the time. I feel like it's almost naive to have hope that things are going to get better.
00:49:14
Speaker
But that doesn't, so you can be a nihilist and just do nothing, but that's so self-serving. And i don't know, it's it's hard. I don't think I'm giving a very good answer, but it's especially apparent to me having it ah like a young child, like how to teach my young child about acting in a world in which we don't have hope and what it means to not have hope.
00:49:36
Speaker
for the future of my own child. Yeah, you could use that to give up, but that would be, what would be the point? Like all we have is so our life right in front of us now. And you have to do whatever it takes to make that meaningful.
00:49:52
Speaker
Even if you don't think that there is a future or that there's a good future.
00:49:59
Speaker
Thank you. Wow. That reminds me of something that Miriam Kaba says sometimes. I don't know if you're familiar with her work around abolition.
00:50:10
Speaker
She talks about hope as a discipline, which feels like a contrast a little bit to what you're saying. But it's just coming to me right now that it seems like they're sort of two sides of of the same coin.
00:50:23
Speaker
So continuing on to to another question, and this is another pretty big one, but how did this experience change you? Let's start with you, Amina.
00:50:37
Speaker
Yeah, i mean, it's solidified the fact that that's this is a struggle or the struggle that I want to keep helping with and I want to return as soon as possible. it's made it makes my day-to-day feel pretty maladaptive ever since I've gotten back because instead of waking up and immediately like anticipating what the next settler army attack will be that day, have think about or I have to think about my work tasks or what I'm going to do this weekend with my friends.
00:51:09
Speaker
You know, it's not that i feel guilty or undeserving of that, but the contrast of coming home and I'm like really freshly returned, like, I mean, barely a month and a half.
00:51:20
Speaker
So it's still pretty fresh, but you know, and I, for two weeks after I got back, the ah sounds of the the train and the planes and the just general traffic outside. i live in a big city here.
00:51:32
Speaker
they It all immediately made me feel like I was hearing all the warplanes again, you know, because the IOF flies their warplanes from bases south of the West Bank, very south of where we were on their way to at that time to either bomb Gaza or or Lebanon.
00:51:49
Speaker
And i think that was part of their kind of psychological torture, too, on the West Bank saying, like, you know, you next. But it's yeah, it doesn't it's it's ah it's objectively not fair and not right.
00:52:00
Speaker
that I wake up feeling safe and not worried about the things that I and the Palestinian families that I was staying with had to worry about every single day. It has cast a shadow on like everything I do kind of day to day here where I'm not worried for my safety.
00:52:16
Speaker
Yeah. So it does, it doesn't feel right to not return as soon as I can. i don't know if that's, you know, and a Jewish ancestral thing as well. I think about Jewish resistance movements too, ah not wanting to like lay down and fight didn and accept anything. And yeah, it kind of consumes you. Yeah.
00:52:35
Speaker
So I wouldn't, that that's ah actually kind of another reason I wouldn't necessarily recommend going to Palestine to volunteer for just died of everyone. Because, you know, if you're prone to anxiety and like ah PTSD and things like that, like, I mean, it's not something that leaves you very quickly and easily. And it's violence and cruelty that you see every day and think about and hear about every day while you're there.
00:52:58
Speaker
Just constant people being shot and abducted and so many things like it's it doesn't leave you but it confirms that it was the right place for you to be and a place for you to come back that's what you feel is right to do so I I don't know if that answers that um I I don't know if anything changed in me it just confirmed what I already thought was true
00:53:26
Speaker
thank you Ruby, do you have anything to add here? I feel like I've been, I mean, less so now. I'm like three weeks out from coming back from Palestine, but I definitely was really disassociated for the first few weeks.
00:53:42
Speaker
I think sometimes you have to be farther away from an experience to kind of understand how it changed you. I think being too close to an experience, it's pretty easy to just kind of be too disassociative to really be able to to tell.
00:53:58
Speaker
I'm also curious. I mean, it sounds like like you just said, it's a little too soon for you to be able to to answer that question fully. but But I'm also curious if this shifted anything politically for for either of you.
00:54:11
Speaker
ah it sounds like both of you are coming to this experience with pretty solid sort of understandings of your own political positions and maybe ideologies, although I don't know if you would use that word.
00:54:22
Speaker
But I am just curious if anything shifted in your understanding of of strategy or or ideology after this? Not really. I guess this, again, solidified, ah put some theory into some sort of praxis in a way.
00:54:39
Speaker
I agree. I think that politically, the first time I went to Palestine 14 years ago had ah ah the bigger effect had a much bigger effect politically on me just because of how much younger I was and that I didn't have as firm an understanding of the world or Palestine or resistance in general at that time.
00:55:00
Speaker
So, and this time felt much more like affirming of of what I believe, I guess. Amina touched briefly on some kind of Jewish ancestry to resistance and being part of their experience in Palestine. I just, I guess this was an answer to the very first question you asked, but you know, one of the reasons I went is because my family also experienced genocide and some people risked their lives for us and not enough did.
00:55:24
Speaker
and Yeah, I don't know. it just, I don't want to look back and think about how I could have supported people undergoing genocide, but didn't. Yeah.
00:55:35
Speaker
Thank you. So with this recent news about the ceasefire, I'm i'm wondering how how the two of you are feeling about that and
Mixed Reactions to the Ceasefire
00:55:44
Speaker
and what thoughts and emotions are are coming up for you right now in the wake of the ceasefire announcement.
00:55:50
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, um I'm sharing in the absolute joy that I'm seeing Palestinians are experiencing, especially those in Gaza. I can't even begin to imagine what it feels like and the celebrations and the relief. I mean, ah obviously, there's still bombardments and...
00:56:08
Speaker
I don't know what kind of really upset me was seeing all the other posts about the reacting to the ceasefire with joy and, you know, people who aren't affected in any way, shape or form by any of it saying like, well, actually, you know, Israel has a history of, ah you know, reneging on ceasefire agreements. They're going to start the genocide right back up again.
00:56:29
Speaker
You know, don't celebrate this. We should not be like just the need to. have some sort of political analysis and condescendingly correct people who are experiencing that kind of joy, like really, was awful to read. That seemed to almost be the instinctual reaction, at least that a lot of people had.
00:56:48
Speaker
And I kind of, I don't know, I i found ah better place is just to see the joy and the reactions from Palestinians in Gaza. Of course, it was I don't know, there was another ceasefire in November 2023, just like, you know, a month into the genocide. And just even reading those same people who are sharing their experiences then saying they want to go sit on the beach. And it was the first day in a month that they could do that without hearing the sound of drones overhead.
00:57:11
Speaker
And just to contrast them crying tears of joy from a ceasefire that was just one month to over a year later. i mean, it's indescribable to imagine. So yeah, I don't know. I'm, I'm overjoyed. And I Yeah, i I don't know. The their reactions have been bizarre to read, especially the ones who are trying to like stomp down on that joy or tell people not to feel joy just yet or whatever.
00:57:37
Speaker
I certainly would never tell Palestinians or Palestinians in Gaza that they shouldn't celebrate. any news that might make their lives a little bit easier or make them more likely to literally survive another day.
00:57:52
Speaker
But I also, i have kind of the opposite reaction. i mean, I feel like having people, hearing people who are not living that day-to-day life, celebrating the news is to me has been unbelievable.
00:58:04
Speaker
like naive, because it's it's true that Israel does have a history of breaking ceasefires, or when Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, I think it was, you know, they immediately were able to start other types of actions because they didn't have Israeli citizens um within these territories anymore.
00:58:23
Speaker
oh yeah, yeah, no, yeah. You know, so I think when I hear this, I i am filled with fear. And for me, what I am filled with fear about is that that there is some movement in Israel currently to stop the war.
00:58:36
Speaker
And as soon as the hostages, the Israeli hostages, I should say, because of course, as we know, there are tens of thousands of Palestinian hostages within Israel. As soon as the Israeli hostages are released, any semblance of being against the war will disappear completely.
00:58:50
Speaker
And that is my great fear. I think when I hear the news of the ceasefire, i also read an article in the Israeli, what's it called? Correct. The Times of Israel. No, it's a more conservative one than the Arts. The Times of Israel, I think, that said that in the vote today, because actually wasn't until like this evening or this evening, Israeli time, that they actually agreed to the ceasefire. I don't think they actually agreed two days ago when the media started to report it, but the Netanyahu and other ministers were very clear that the deal includes being able to resume intensive fighting with the back of the full backing of the United States at any point if Hamas does not accept Israeli security demands.
00:59:29
Speaker
So for me, I hear ceasefire and i hope that, i mean, of course, I hope that Palestinians, this means something real for Palestinians, especially Palestinians in Gaza, about their survival. And I'm also like filled with fear about what it means.
00:59:46
Speaker
Yeah, no, i um I do agree with you there. i think I, when I answered that, I was, i don't know, I'm actually surprised by how much I detached myself from my own feelings about that. And yeah, no, I don't ever feel anything but fear and dread about the next even worse thing to come, especially in terms of with the incoming American administration and what that means for the West Bank.
01:00:12
Speaker
Fear and dread is definitely still ongoing. Yeah, I just meant that it feels like a ah few days of relief and joy and celebration. and that that that felt nice to see them experiencing.
01:00:24
Speaker
But yeah yeah, I mean, everything you're saying is accurate and everything everyone is saying is accurate about how it's probably short lived. So there's i mean I'm hearing from you, Rivi, that there's a fear that the ceasefire is actually an end to meaningful resistance to the occupation as it stands currently.
01:00:45
Speaker
No, what I'm saying is that my fear is that but we don't think that resistance to the war happening in Israel is a resistance the occupation. I think there is a movement within Israel, within 48, against the current war because of the way it endangers the Israeli hostages who are still within Gaza.
01:01:02
Speaker
who I do not think it is a movement against the occupation. And that is why i think that as soon as Israeli hostages are no longer within Gaza,
01:01:13
Speaker
there will be no movement whatsoever against the war. Right. Within 48. Right. right Okay. You're making a distinction between the war and the occupation. Yes.
01:01:24
Speaker
ah The current war genocide began on October 7th. That war. Yeah. There'll be no more resistance to that war within 48 after the ceasefire. After the rest of the Israeli hostages are released. Right.
01:01:38
Speaker
Okay. And there' therefore, no no more support for an end to
Potential Impact of Ceasefire on Israeli Protests
01:01:42
Speaker
the occupation. Well, I don't think there's support generally in Israel against the occupation. Certainly, I think there's some movements within Israel, some leftist movements, so who consider the occupation to be you know solely the West Bank. And there's a belief that Israel should not be within the West Bank, but certainly not any movement within Israel against the occupation of a whole from Palestinian land.
01:02:02
Speaker
My great fear is that right now there is pretty widespread opposition by Israelis within 48 against this current iteration of the war that began on October 7th because of the way it endangers the Israeli hostages who are being held in Gaza.
01:02:18
Speaker
I don't think those demonstrations and those protests are against the occupation I think they are against the current iteration of war and airstrikes happening within Gaza because of the hostages.
01:02:30
Speaker
So my great fear is that once the hostages are released as part of the ceasefire agreement, there will be no more opposition by Israelis within 48 against the continuation of this iteration of war in Gaza, the genocide in Gaza.
01:02:45
Speaker
Yes, I see. That framing sounds like the support among Israelis against the war currently was perhaps for a time giving some hope that there would be opposition to the occupation itself?
01:03:01
Speaker
Or is it sort of, I guess my question is, isn't that sort of irrelevant to the the question of whether or not the occupation continues, like this the the existence of support or lack thereof among Israelis for the occupation or against it?
01:03:17
Speaker
Yeah, I guess what I mean is that when the citizens of a government are having mass demonstrations against the government, that maybe that sways the government a little bit. I don't really know if it has in Israel or not, but the fact that there are mass demonstrations against this current iteration of the war by Israelis, i mean, maybe that has some effect on Israeli policy within Gaza. I don't know.
01:03:38
Speaker
But I think there will be none of that once the hostages are released. who That movement is not in support of Palestinian life, right? It's in support of Israeli life that is endangered because of the Israelis who are with are who are in Gaza right now.
01:03:52
Speaker
Right. Yeah, this is something, so I think I mentioned this, but I had another, i did another interview with ah with another ISM volunteer just yesterday who was talking about their experience and we were discussing some of these same questions.
01:04:06
Speaker
And to me, there seems to be kind of a parallel between sort of counterinsurgent potential of a ceasefire and the counterinsurgent potential of demands to negotiate for divestment among students during the student encampment, where like a demand for divestment was an important rallying cry that got people involved and brought them into the struggle.
01:04:32
Speaker
But then once universities actually negotiated A lot of times the outcome was that the on-the-ground movement at the university died and the encampments were, in order to negotiate with the universities, the encampments disappeared.
01:04:47
Speaker
And to me, that seems like a little bit of ah of a parallel so maybe what you're articulating here is that the on-the-ground struggle will disappear because this negotiation has taken place.
01:05:00
Speaker
Yeah, i don't think that's the same thing. Because I don't think that the Israelis who are staging protests have ever been in favor of Palestinian life. They're in favor of Israeli life, and they're scared for the Israelis who are being held.
01:05:12
Speaker
So it's not like they are it's not like they're being told that the demonstrations within Israel against this iteration of the war must stop in order to negotiate for the release of the hostages or something. I just think once the hostages are released, the people who cared won't care because they don't see Palestinians as human.
01:05:28
Speaker
Hmm. And I think the encampments, what happened with the encampments was, ah just feels really different. The encampments, you know, there was this divestment rallying cry. And then the administration says, in order for us to negotiate, you must dismantle camps. And people somehow, wildly, believed that they actually were going into that in good faith and dismantled their own camps.
01:05:49
Speaker
But it feels really different because the encampments were... in support of Palestinian life. Yeah, the encampments were were resistance. Whereas i I see the Israeli movement... as being like, yes, they're resisting their government, but but not in favor of Palestinian life.
01:06:05
Speaker
It's interesting. Okay. So the piece you said earlier around how you have a fear of this resistance disappearing, maybe because it has some impact on the Israeli government's policies in Gaza, is not actually... i guess, okay, to clarify what I meant by that is a ceasefire would affect the hostage the Israeli hostages as well as Palestinian who live in Gaza.
01:06:27
Speaker
So any any movement that's for a ceasefire will have an effect on both of those groups of people. Right. So I think the Israelis, even if israelis the Israeli movement against the war is in favor of the hostages, not Palestinians, it will have an effect on both.
01:06:43
Speaker
so long as there are hostages to have an effect on us soon as soon as the hostages are out of Gaza, there won't be a movement anymore because these railings are safe. Yeah, I see. I see what you're saying. One is done specific. You're talking about the intent of both and you're making a distinction between the intention behind both of these, yes both of these things. And because they have different intentions, you're saying there's a, there's a, there's a key difference there.
01:07:08
Speaker
Yeah. That makes sense to me. Yeah, I just think it's it's interesting to think about, I guess, maybe more broadly, just the way that negotiations can sometimes kill a ground movement or struggle on the ground.
01:07:21
Speaker
Yeah. But yeah, I think that is an important distinction that that you're making. i think in 2005, when Israel pulled out of Gaza, there was so much support for Israel doing that.
01:07:33
Speaker
And I remember reading ah book written by a Palestinian woman in Gaza that said after Israel pulled out of Gaza, they started doing these daily, I don't know what to call it. They basically, they would fly planes really low over people's homes and break the sound barrier.
01:07:47
Speaker
And so it was just these enormous booms all night long. It shattered the glass in their houses. And they couldn't do that when they had Israeli citizens in settlements in Gaza because they would be affected. Hmm. And I just say i think about that.
01:07:59
Speaker
This thing that looks internationally like they've given a concession, but actually they use that, what looks like a concession, to have other ways of causing psychological trauma on people that's that's just more invisibilized by the media talking about whatever concession they think Israel gave, I guess, if that makes sense.
01:08:19
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think in in this situation, one way that the people I've talked to who are still in Palestine are expecting that to happen is that maybe... things will get a little bit better in Gaza, but maybe they will get much, much, much worse in the West Bank while everyone is is kind of eyes on Gaza.
01:08:35
Speaker
Amina, did you have anything to add to
Emerging Israeli Protests Against Gaza Return
01:08:37
Speaker
this? Yeah, um agreed with a lot of that, especially about how, you know, the peace fire protests within 48 within Israel were for the hostages and not for Palestinian lives. But a lot of the encampment concessions were from counterinsurgency protests.
01:08:52
Speaker
and bad faith negotiations. I don't think any encampment felt that it really got any to divestment wins. But I think that actually there's already a ah growing, renewed protest movement within Israel. And that's going to be that after the hostages are returned and the bodies of other hostages are returned and the prisoners, um the Palestinian captives are returned, that the soldiers are actually not super eager to go back into Gaza, especially that there's not the goal anymore of returning hostages or finding hostages.
01:09:22
Speaker
A lot of them deluded themselves. Or, I mean, obviously, many, if not most had the genocidal intent in the first place, and the hostages were always just an excuse. But now they can't even have that pretense. And it is psychologically grueling for them, even though they don't care about Palestinian lives.
01:09:38
Speaker
So there's already a lot of that chatter, even among more like right wing Israeli spaces and whatnot. is but I mean, did the the resistance in Beit Hanou, especially ah within the past few weeks, served one of the biggest demoralizing blows against the Israeli military and possibly the entire war so far. And they're really not letting that go They don't want to go back in and they're going to protest on that ground now.
01:10:03
Speaker
They're saying don't kill our innocent young boys who are IOF soldiers is going to be the rallying cry because it is aimless. It is going to be complicated for them, even with the hostages um returned. But like both of you were saying, though, it's not about Palestinian lives. It's yeah, it's not going to be powerful enough to make the actual cabinet stop what they have put into writing that they fully intend to do.
01:10:27
Speaker
don't know, not not feeling particularly optimistic about that either. Yeah, that was that was my next question, right, is what what do you see on the horizon and what do you want to see?
01:10:41
Speaker
I think you kind of just spoke to it, but feel free to weigh in on that. Yeah. and And just the West Bank as well. i mean, there's talk of the incoming cabinets pulling back the sanctions on extremist right-wing settler groups and the organizations that fund new settlements.
01:10:55
Speaker
So money is going to most likely funnel in at an increasing rate, which means they're crowdfunding for for weapons and for construction materials and just for bringing more settlers in illegally in the first place. So everything that those areas in the West Bank have been experiencing will accelerate even more.
01:11:13
Speaker
And, you know, nonviolence, protective presence isn't going to be what stops it on a you know meaningful level in any particular place. And I mean, Israel has also laid out a plan for where they choose to expand and seize land and declare things active military zones. They're building power plants in the West Bank and they need to expel, they say they need to expel all of the villages around them for this construction.
01:11:37
Speaker
So that's just like all out in the open about what the next steps are. So that's what's on the horizon, unfortunately. You know, i mean, just and they are building or rather funding and installing new IOF task forces for what they call Judea and Samara, or if I'm pronouncing that right, I'm not sure, but you know what what they call the West Bank.
01:11:57
Speaker
So yeah, and obviously their escalation with the PA and various refugee camps and in the Jordan Valley. don't know. It's coming from every direction at every level.
01:12:08
Speaker
And yeah, it is pretty impossible to feel any kind of hope about the situation. Ruby, do you have anything to add to that question? i mean, my of course, my greatest fear is that this very act of genocide will continue or get worse, you know, but one of my other great fears is that it'll go back to the status quo, kind of like what things looked like before October 7th.
01:12:30
Speaker
And then that will be really celebrated as a success, like back to peace. Because as we know, peace is just the absence of resistance from those being oppressed. So that's one of my other fears, too, is that a success would be things going back to the way they were before October 7th, as if the last 15 months hadn't even happened.
01:12:47
Speaker
Right. And that is just a horrifying reality to think about also. Because it's the conditions before October 7th that led to Palestinians breaking into Israel into 48 on October 7th. And to to go back to that as a success would just be horrifying in my mind.
01:13:03
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah, I think that's a really realistic fear and certainly something that comes up in in thinking around the ceasefire celebrations or or lack thereof.
01:13:14
Speaker
So our conversation is coming to a close, but is there anything else that either one of you would like to share with listeners that you feel like we haven't touched on or that you'd like to circle back to or that you want to talk a little bit
Belief in Palestinian Self-Liberation Through Resistance
01:13:27
Speaker
more about?
01:13:27
Speaker
and Yeah, just add like one note to my last very cynical, pessimistic sounding note, I mean, I do envision a free Palestine within our lifetimes, and they think that it'll be Palestinians who free themselves, who free Palestine.
01:13:43
Speaker
And I hope, yeah, i really I really do want to be able to keep witnessing that piece by piece as we have been. all sounds and feels overwhelming to witness and think about as a whole. But there's so many small acts of resistance that will never make the news that are barely worth reporting in the group chat to. But there there's always going to be more of that than the will of the oppressor and what they're trying to do.
01:14:08
Speaker
And I'm not giving up. And obviously, Palestinians aren't giving up. And yes yeah, thanks for letting us talk it out today. Well, thank you. Thank you both so much for for sharing so much and for being so clear and and honest about your experiences.
01:14:23
Speaker
i really appreciate your time.
01:14:32
Speaker
Thanks for listening to today's episode of The Beautiful Idea, news and analysis from the front lines of anarchist and autonomous struggles everywhere. Catch you next time.