Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
The Murder of Ayşenur Ezgi Eygi and the Future of International Solidarity
0 Plays2 seconds ago
On September 6th of last year, 26 year old University of Washington graduate Ayşenur Ezgi Eygi was shot and killed by IDF soldiers while doing accompaniment in the West Bank of Palestine with International Solidarity Movement (ISM). In this episode, we speak with a friend of Ayşenur's who had travelled to the West Bank to do accompaniment with ISM alongside her, and was present during the days leading up to and immediately after her murder.
We discuss what happened to Ayşenur, settler violence against Palestinians and IDF complicity, grief, remembrance, and ways in which anarchist movements internationally can effectively support people facing violence from the state and occupying forces.
During the discussion a number of pieces are referenced:
"Theses On Palestine Solidarity" (anonymous): https://haters.noblogs.org/files/2024/01/Theses-on-Palestine-Solidarity.pdf
"The Gaza Ghetto Uprising" (Adi Callai*): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt_1k7nSv1M&pp=ygUUZ2F6YSBnaGV0dG8gdXByaXNpbmc%3D
"The Gaza ceasefire will not cure the wounds of genocide" (Roaa Shamallakh): https://mondoweiss.net/2025/01/the-gaza-ceasefire-will-not-cure-the-wounds-of-genocide/
For more information about Ayşenur and her murder at the hands of the IDF, please see https://www.realchangenews.org/news/2024/10/02/remembering-ay-enur-activist-s-death-felt-deeply-seattle-and-beyond and https://southseattleemerald.org/voices/2024/09/10/aysenurs-legacy-the-tragic-loss-of-an-activist-a-friend-and-a-fighter-for-international-solidarity
The speaker interviewed on this episode does not represent the views of International Solidarity Movement. For more about the work of ISM, visit their website at:https://palsolidarity.org/
This interview was originally conducted immediately following the agreement to a ceasefire between the IDF and Hamas, on January 16th, 2025. We apologize for the delayed release.
*Adi Callai has previously been interviewed by contributors to this show. Shortly following the October 7th attacks, they appeared on "This is America" (with Tom Nomad) to discuss IDF strategy (https://itsgoingdown.org/counter-insurgency-israel-podcast/).
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello. You're listening to The Beautiful Idea, a podcast from a collective of several anarchist and autonomous media producers scattered around the world. We're bringing you interviews and stories from the front lines of autonomous social movements and struggles, as well as original commentary and analysis.
00:00:25
Speaker
Follow us on Mastodon and at thebeautifulidea.show. Thanks for listening.
Context: Israel-Hamas Ceasefire
00:00:40
Speaker
Thanks for speaking with me today. We're recording this interview on Thursday, January 16th, 2025, less than 24 hours since the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas was agreed to after 467 days of war.
Story of Avaishinur Egi and ISM
00:00:56
Speaker
i'm joined now by a former ISM volunteer and friend, Avaishinur Egi, the 26-year-old Turkish-American woman who was also an ISM volunteer who was shot and killed by the IDF while accompanying Palestinians in the West Bank on September 6, 2024.
00:01:13
Speaker
ISM stands for International Solidarity Movement, and we'll talk about that and what ISM does in just a moment. But for now, thank you for being here. how How are you doing?
Exploring the International Solidarity Movement
00:01:24
Speaker
Hey, thanks for having me. I'm doing all right.
00:01:27
Speaker
I want to ask you about how you're feeling about the ceasefire that was just announced later on in our talk. But just to make sure that that listeners understand, could you explain what exactly ISM is and what it does? I think a lot of people who listen to the show have probably heard of them before.
00:01:46
Speaker
But just to clarify. Sure. Yeah, as you mentioned, it stands for International Solidarity Movement. It was founded in 2001, in my understanding, by like a small group brought together some anti-Zionist Israeli activists, some Palestinian activists, and some international activists.
00:02:06
Speaker
activists. They kind of operate along four principles. One, that they're Palestinian-led. They're committed to nonviolence as a strategy, not necessarily an ideology, but as a strategy.
00:02:18
Speaker
They make decisions but using consensus, and they use an anti-oppression lens, which includes being explicitly anti-Zionist. And I think their origin is connected to ah Palestinian Popular Committees that arose during the First and Second Intifadas.
00:02:38
Speaker
And their their goal is to participate and support the popular resistance. And so they do this through a variety of activities, being part of and showing up at public demonstrations and actions, but also a big part of what they do is what they call protective presence, which looks like having international volunteers accompany Palestinians in their daily lives in the hopes that an international presence will
00:03:13
Speaker
lessen or decrease the amount of violence that the Palestinians face from both Israeli settlers and military.
Challenges and Accusations Against ISM
00:03:20
Speaker
So, it would concretely, that would look like accompanying cheap herders in the fields or farmers harvesting their crops or accompanying schoolchildren on their way to school being present at homes that are threatened with demolition, stuff like that.
00:03:39
Speaker
Gotcha. So what does it mean to be involved in the popular resistance in Palestine? What is that? I mean, you just talked about a little bit of what that looks like in the day to day.
00:03:50
Speaker
I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about ISM's relationship to different government entities and to armed groups. Yeah, so I should clarify that I i volunteered with ISM and I went to to do this work, but I actually didn't do it on the ground because of the murder of my friend so early on in our time there.
00:04:13
Speaker
And so I can't speak in depth about what it looks like in practice. But from my understanding, being involved and supporting the popular resistance, i I believe means not having any direct relationship with any specific political entity.
00:04:32
Speaker
So the organization doesn't take a position for or against the any of the political parties or groups. I imagine that there's a range of political opinions amongst volunteers, but as an organization, there's no formal relationship with the Palestinian Authority or Hamas or anything.
Personal Motivation and Reflections
00:04:50
Speaker
the relationship with the Israeli government is very contentious. Obviously, as a an explicitly anti-Zionist organization that's going to bring the group in conflict with Israel.
00:05:03
Speaker
And there have been like multiple sort of smear campaigns over the course of the ISM's existence in which like Israeli politicians or other like Zionist media figures will try to claim the ISM as involved in quote-unquote terrorist activities.
00:05:21
Speaker
But there's, you know, well for one, there's no basis to these claims. And then also, like, I think most of us are well aware that the state, whether it's Israel or the U.S. or other states, will use labels such as terrorist or whatever as a form of repression if they want to try to publicly discredit any form of resistance or liberation.
00:05:42
Speaker
So it's a meaningless accusation, but it has been has been made. Mm-hmm. the So I'm curious, I know we've spoken off the record before, so I've gotten a little bit more context about you.
00:05:57
Speaker
But I'm wondering if you could share why you decided to work with ISM, because I think you had kind of unique reasons for joining. And then i'm I'm also wondering if we could talk a little bit more about this question of ah the difference between nonviolence as a strategy versus an ideology and how that kind of ties into your decision to work with ISM.
00:06:20
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I think, I mean, i don't I don't know about what the majority of other ISM volunteers thought processes are like when they are are considering joining.
00:06:31
Speaker
But for me, I didn't decide to go to the West Bank with ISM because I thought that I personally was going to make any difference in the broader like brutal colonial dynamic.
00:06:44
Speaker
and And I wasn't convinced that internationals doing protective presence was going to change much about the situation either. For me, it was more specifically an opportunity to expose myself to really dangerous conditions, life or death situations, in the hopes that that experience would be useful in the future and would give me more courage to act in more substantial heights of solidarity in the future.
00:07:17
Speaker
Yeah, I could say more. i don't know if you wanted me say more about the protective presence. Yeah, I would be curious about that. I think just to back up a little bit for people that maybe aren't familiar I mean, ah the idea is basically that having foreigners there somehow diminishes.
00:07:35
Speaker
Is that the idea that having foreigners alongside Palestinians in their resistance is going to slightly diminish the the likelihood that they will be attacked or that they will be killed?
00:07:47
Speaker
Yeah, i think I think that's the but logic behind it. ah And that's why they they call it a protective presence. Yeah,
Personal Connection to Avaishinur Egi
00:07:56
Speaker
yeah. And what what do you think about that?
00:07:59
Speaker
I think I have sort of complicated views on it. I'm not exactly sure what I think. the The phrase itself is a little uncomfortable to me because I think it it reveals that there's an acceptance of this like inherent difference between internationals and Palestinians. Mm-hmm.
00:08:22
Speaker
and And I don't know that in the long run if that's like emphasizing or accepting that difference is a long term strategy for liberation.
00:08:33
Speaker
You know, it kind of calls into question what solidarity means in my mind. So I think the underlying assumption of that strategy is that at some point, by mobilizing the racial or national privileges of international volunteers, the ruling class and the governments of the United States and other world powers will suddenly be convinced that they need to stop funding like ethnic cleansing and genocide in Palestine.
00:09:03
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And this could be the case, but it seemed unlikely. Like, that hasn't happened. That hasn't worked. I don't know if there's some, like, threshold of amount of, like, international exposure or, like, some level of outcry that's been a result because internationals are exposed to the violence of the Israeli state.
00:09:27
Speaker
I don't know. i think but i But I think that that is sort of foundational to the idea of protective presence. and so I think maybe not purposefully, but incidentally, this also accepts the premise that the lives of Americans or other internationals are fundamentally more valuable than completely separate from Palestinian lives.
00:09:52
Speaker
and And again, I think there there's this is probably true in the eyes of the Israeli government and military, and and but like I said it it seemed to undermine the concept of solidarity to me like if we're truly in solidarity with people whether they're in Palestine or or anywhere don't we have to see ourselves as no different than them like it doesn't seem like there can be a tiered struggle in which Palestinians risk their lives as insurgents and internationals only risk their social reputations for you know and the extent of solidarity is simply like supporting or observing
00:10:29
Speaker
the insurgents from a distance rather than participating as an equal.
Planning Amidst Violence and Risks
00:10:34
Speaker
So it seems like until large numbers of internationals are willing to see themselves as 100% invested in the struggle, then the Palestinian rebels will still effectively be on their own.
00:10:45
Speaker
um Yeah, it's interesting, right? Because in some ways, that's how some people sort of think of the the decision to travel to to Palestine and and to do accompaniment there.
00:10:57
Speaker
But you're you're drawing this distinction between accompaniment and and maybe insurrection? Yeah, I guess you could say that.
00:11:07
Speaker
who So you you went to Palestine with Aishinur, and if you think you can speak on it, Do you know what motivated her? Can you tell us a little bit about who Aishina was, both personally and politically and every in any sense?
00:11:24
Speaker
Yeah. You know, since her murder, there's been a number of tributes that have come out about her, written by people who knew her maybe even more so than I did or in different ways or at different points in her life. And so think all of those are worth reading.
00:11:41
Speaker
For me, like I met her about four years ago, or four years prior to her death, and through her partner, who was my friend. and Prior to that, I've since learned that she had quite like a an active political life before I met her.
00:11:59
Speaker
and This is when she was pretty young. like ah high school and just after high school. I know that she traveled to Standing Rock and was involved in that movement
Avaishinur Egi's Murder and Aftermath
00:12:09
Speaker
against the Dakota Access Pipeline and involved in other political movements.
00:12:14
Speaker
and then but I kind of knew her in the first three years of our friendship and in And more just like ah through just a purely friend way, like we had a similar friend group and we would hang out in in groups of people and stuff like that. But after October 7th, I think both of us kind of got re-engaged in Palestine solidarity work and and that sort of helped us build ah new dynamic in our friendship that was more based around political activity.
00:12:46
Speaker
And so, you know, some things that she did in the year prior to us traveling to the West Bank that are really notable she organized like a grassroots fundraiser for people in Gaza.
00:12:59
Speaker
And she did it seemingly all on her own in a very short period of time and was able to raise something like $40,000 or $50,000 matter hours.
00:13:11
Speaker
Wow. You know, it was like 10 or 20 times the amount that she expected to raise. And so she was this very tenacious organizer which when she set her mind to something and it was pretty admirable.
00:13:27
Speaker
And then she was quite involved in organizing student encampment at the University of Washington, where she was a student at that last spring. And, you know, again, she just, she worked tirelessly. And through that experience, sort of like strategizing and reflecting on the days spent there with her, you know, kind of deepened our political relationship.
00:13:55
Speaker
It's my view, and i'm I'm not positive about this, but I think that it was sort of a disappointment of the end of the encampment at the University of Washington that led her to search for ah different sort of activity around Palestine. And I think that that's, in my mind, that's when she approached me as saying, you know, I think I'm going to go physically be in Palestine.
00:14:24
Speaker
i want to volunteer with an organization. We had previously talked about going to volunteer with ISM, but neither of us had really committed to it. But it was like in the aftermath of the sort of deterioration of the UW encampment that I think she felt more certain.
00:14:40
Speaker
And so her certainty is what motivated me to to take that step. And so from there, we we planned the trip. Hmm. Wow. And so how long did it take to plan that trip? And what exactly were the steps entailed? And what were your, yeah, what did you do? Where did you go? And what was the situation on the ground when you arrived there with Aishinoka?
00:15:04
Speaker
There's several like rounds of like when you contact the ISM as an organization expressing your interest, they kind of do a vetting process. And then there's a couple online informational and training sessions before you actually travel there.
00:15:20
Speaker
So, I mean, I guess I had first attended an in-person info session about the ISM back in like December of 23. But I think like after Aishinor and I decided that we were going to go The planning took, I don't know, maybe three or four months, something like that. So i think it was in large part off the international radar, the West Bank, because of the genocide going on and in Uzzah since October of 2023.
00:15:52
Speaker
But the reality in the West Bank was also very brutal and had been getting more and more deadly over the course of that year. Forget the exact number Palestinians in the West Bank who had been killed over the course of that year.
00:16:07
Speaker
but it was in the upper hundreds, maybe even over a thousand, I can't remember, but yeah it was always bad and it had been significantly worse over the past year. And then, so in the West Bank, there's this very complicated system of governance that is all, essentially what it all boils down to is like Israeli occupation and control, but they call it different things in different areas.
00:16:35
Speaker
So there's areas A, B, and C, and maybe listeners know about this, but I'm certainly no expert. It's quite complicated. But area A, from my understanding, these are all the results of ah the Oslo Accords.
00:16:49
Speaker
from 1993-94. Area a is is supposed to be controlled by the Palestinian Authority. Area B is shared control between Palestinian Authority and the Israeli military. And then Area C is exclusively controlled by the Israeli military.
00:17:08
Speaker
Now, in effect, the Israeli military can do whatever it wants in any of those areas, but their presence is less frequent in Area A and to an extent Area B. Area C are the often like the very but areas that are actively being settled and annexed by Israelis with the help of the Israeli government.
00:17:32
Speaker
So some of the larger cities in the West Bank are primarily in Area A. So for example, Ramallah, which is where we're kind of based, and Nabilis, which is another major city.
Funeral and Memorial for Avaishinur
00:17:47
Speaker
But just outside of Nabilis, is a town or a village called Beta, and it's mixed, like the land that it sits on is mixed between Area B and Area C, and has a a settler outpost that's been being constructed and growing on it since 2020 or 2021. And So this is one of many places in the West Bank that are very tense and tightly contested.
00:18:20
Speaker
And so that was part of what we arrived at. And I would say prior to our arriving for the a month or two, or even the weeks leading up to our arrival, there had been an increasing number of attacks on both Palestinians in the West Bank and international volunteers.
00:18:41
Speaker
And these were coming both from Israeli soldiers, but also settlers who were sometimes referred to as settler soldiers. And basically they were putting people in the hospital with violent attacks, broken bones, you know,
00:18:56
Speaker
pretty severe injuries and with complete impunity. Like there was never anything done as a punishment or deterrent for these types of actions. um And then in addition to that, less than a month prior to our our arrival in the West Bank, another ISM volunteer has been in the, in the news and stuff named Daniel Santiago.
00:19:19
Speaker
He had been shot in his leg by Israeli forces and in this village of Beta, which I mentioned, at the same weekly demonstration where Aishinor
Emotional Struggle and Political Implications
00:19:29
Speaker
would be murdered on the 6th of September.
00:19:32
Speaker
and And again, similar to the other attacks, like nothing was done in response to the shooting either by the U.S. or Israeli governments. Wow.
00:19:43
Speaker
And so what was this this demo? You said it was a weekly demo or a monthly demo? How long had it been going on for? Yeah, it's a weekly, every Friday demonstration, mostly a symbolic demonstration. The residents of Beta have been doing it. I'm worried that I might get this wrong, but at least, I mean, I think it's since the the formation of the settler outpost on the land nearby.
00:20:10
Speaker
And so for for roughly four years, but I think that Beta, even before that, has been a place of Israeli incursion and violence for decades and also like like regular resistance
Evaluating ISM's Strategy and Resistance
00:20:29
Speaker
to that.
00:20:30
Speaker
So it's it's a pretty storied place. So every Friday, the townspeople, they hold Friday prayers in the middle of the day. in this outdoor space at the top of a hill.
00:20:44
Speaker
And then and they start a demonstration chanting in protest of this Israeli settler outpost that's on the adjacent hill. And the Israeli military comes and is present for every demonstration, and they repress it very severely.
00:21:02
Speaker
As soon as it starts, as soon as people start chanting, they start shooting tear gas and often and increasingly shooting live ammunition at protesters.
00:21:13
Speaker
So that that's the context of the demonstrations in Peta. Yeah. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about the initial steps once you all arrived in Palestine.
00:21:27
Speaker
What was it like? Where did you go? and Yeah. What was the time sort of leading up to Aishiner's killing like for the two of you and for other people that you were with?
00:21:39
Speaker
So there's two days of on the ground training in Ramallah. And even the the morning of the first day of training, there was a a report of a group of international volunteers who were attacked and and some of them were sent to the hospital, attacked by settlers and so So we had these two days of training and then the next day was Friday and we were planning to, like often ISM volunteers attend these demonstrations in data.
00:22:10
Speaker
It's not a requirement, but it's an option. And I should know when I were planning to attend, but then I became ill and so she decided to go without me.
00:22:23
Speaker
And ah should I get into and her her murder, the details of it. Yeah, I was going to ask you about that next. And I know that you have kept a journal. And so if you, if you would like to share from that, I know it would be really helpful to hear your reflections on that experience, but maybe you also want to share a little bit before going into the journal as well.
00:22:52
Speaker
Yeah. ah So I'll just say, I mean, I think, The story's
Views on Armed Struggle
00:22:57
Speaker
been reported pretty viably. A lot of people may know the details, but she attended this demonstration just like others. As soon as it started, the Israeli soldiers shot tear gas and live ammunition.
00:23:11
Speaker
And Beita is on this very steep hill. And so what happens is that protesters pretty quickly retreat down the hill and sometimes into some olive groves in the village.
00:23:24
Speaker
And so Aishinor did that. Beita There was a period from witness accounts, like I said, I wasn't physically there, but from witness accounts, there was a period like this period of retreat, a period of calm, where it seemed like the whole thing may be wrapping up.
00:23:44
Speaker
People say anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes, nothing was really going on, no no skirmishes or conflicts. But what some of the Israeli soldiers do I think regularly, and they did on this day, is they...
00:23:58
Speaker
they take over Palestinian homes to use as like surveillance points and points from from which to shoot from. And so ah group of them took over this rooftop at the top of the hill of a
Reflection on Ceasefire and Future Actions
00:24:14
Speaker
Palestinian home and...
00:24:16
Speaker
where they had like a clear view all the way down the hill. And so it's reported that Aishinor and any of the other people who had retreated were over 200 yards, up to 230 yards away from where these soldiers were standing on the rooftop.
00:24:34
Speaker
And then suddenly, in the midst of what seemed like At the end of the demonstration, two shots of light ammunition rang out. One of them struck something metal, ah either a pole or a dumpster or something,
Conclusion: Call for Global Solidarity
00:24:51
Speaker
and ricocheted and hit a Palestinian young person in his leg.
00:24:56
Speaker
And then the other one was a direct shot into Aishinor's head. She was standing next to an olive tree in olive grove, and people tried to stop the bleeding, and she was put in ambulance and rushed to the hospital, but died very shortly after reaching the hospital in Nablus.
00:25:18
Speaker
So I'm wondering if you want to share about how you found out, and then maybe also pieces from your journal, if you...
00:25:30
Speaker
if you or maybe providing some context around that as well. Like, were you keeping a journal at the time and, or is this stuff that you wrote afterwards? Yeah.
00:25:42
Speaker
So my journal was kind of in the form of somewhat regular reports to a group of friends on a messaging app. So people who were friends of mine who I asked you know before I left if they wanted to receive updates from me were on a list and then I would kind of send things as I could. and so...
00:26:02
Speaker
So I guess I found out that she had been shot via text message from other ISM people who were at the scene. I was in Ramallah, and I just kind of was kind of in shock for quite a while. And then fairly soon, it was reported that she had died.
00:26:25
Speaker
and so, yeah, I guess all I'll read some of of what I wrote that day, because it kind I guess it kind of captures what I was thinking and feeling at that time. Thanks.
00:26:39
Speaker
So September 6, 2024.
00:26:43
Speaker
I don't know how to say this. There's no easy way. I wish I could write something eloquent, but I can't through my sobbing tears. Aisha Nour, my friend, comrade, and travel partner to Palestine, was just shot in the head and murdered by the Israeli occupation forces.
00:27:00
Speaker
May she rest in power. She is now one of many martyrs in the struggle.
00:27:06
Speaker
I'm just sitting here all day tears welling intermittently. Don't know what to do. So many regrets. It would have been me and not her. i am much older than her, and she had so many things she wanted to do with her life.
00:27:22
Speaker
I was the one who came more prepared to die here. I knew the risks. I wrote a will before I came. I don't think she really considered that much of a possibility. should have discouraged her from going to the demo.
00:27:36
Speaker
I was asked not to go to it today because I have COVID, so I stayed in Ramallah. I should have asked her to wait another week for when we could go together. Instead, when she asked me if I was in her shoes would I go alone, I said I would.
00:27:53
Speaker
This morning, I gave her some supplies to deal with tear gas, advised her to stay alert, to stay away from the front of the demo, out of the line of fire, and to stay close to the more experienced activists.
00:28:05
Speaker
Finally, I told her I thought she would be alright. In fact, I think that may have been the last thing I said to her. think you'll be alright. Shows that I know absolutely nothing.
00:28:20
Speaker
At 2.41pm today, i called Hamid, her partner, and delivered the devastating news. We both sobbed and cried. What do you say to your friend whose wife was just murdered on a trip she took with you?
00:28:35
Speaker
What do you say when she traveled from Istanbul to Palestine with you, and yet you didn't go with her to the demonstration? What do you say when you have known for months that bringing a camera phone to face the U.S.-Israel genocidal machine is completely insufficient, and yet you traveled here with her anyway?
00:28:54
Speaker
To be honest, I thought injury, arrest, or death was likely for me. For some reason, I didn't think death would come to Aisha, nor I was not prepared for this moment. It came so suddenly. Thank you.
00:29:09
Speaker
I'm wondering if you have yeah thoughts reading that now. or if you want to continue sharing from other parts of that journey. Yeah, I have.
00:29:23
Speaker
It's definitely hard reading it, and I also have some other entries from other points over the next couple weeks after her murder that I can share.
00:29:36
Speaker
Yeah, if you want to if you want to share all of them, and then we can we can talk after. That works fine.
00:29:44
Speaker
She was born in Turkey, but moved to the U.S. I think before she was even one years old. So she grew up in the U.S., but her family made the decision to have her formal funeral in Turkey and have her buried in Turkey.
00:29:58
Speaker
And so I decided to travel there for the funeral. um So this journal entry is from from the funeral, September 14, 2024.
00:30:14
Speaker
A few friends have caught glimpses of me standing off on my own. They acknowledge me with subtle nod or a slight wave of the hand. Friend comes over and gives me a hug and whispers, I'm sorry, in my ear.
00:30:28
Speaker
I don't think Hamid has seen me. After he and others fill her grave with dirt, he sits solemnly next to her for a very long time, just staring at the new mound of dirt dotted with flowers and draped in a keffiyeh and two small flags, one Turkish and one Palestinian.
00:30:45
Speaker
I don't notice any tears on his face. He appears dry-eyed. i am the same. The tears won't come in this moment. They feel stuck behind something.
00:30:57
Speaker
Perhaps if I was dead and had no more concerns swirling inside my brain, then this body would know how to cry. Instead, I retreat to a different part of the cemetery, too consumed with worry.
00:31:09
Speaker
Some time passes and everyone else has now left. Sit alone, waiting for the unknown time when this body will be at peace.
00:31:19
Speaker
Later, i approached Aishinur's grave, grateful to have an opportunity to finally get close and not have any cameras or dignitaries present. I touched the soil covering her body and all I could think to say was, I'm sorry, over and over again.
00:31:35
Speaker
As I did this, the tears finally started to flow. This was the moment I needed with her. The next morning, I visited Aishinor's grave one more time before departing Didin for Istanbul.
00:31:48
Speaker
Hamid and his family were there, along with a few friends. I gave Hamid a stone from the spot in Beta where she fell and shot, and an olive from the tree she stood next to at a time of her murder.
00:32:01
Speaker
Finally, i brought a stone for him from the garden in Ramola, where she had visited two nights before being killed. It is the place where some of us held a small memorial for her last week, and where we planted an olive tree in her honor.
00:32:14
Speaker
These mementos were suggested by another volunteer and friend, and I was glad to be able to deliver them to Hamid today. He was pleased and they seemed meaningful to him.
00:32:26
Speaker
And then about a week later, I returned home from Turkey. And so I'll read a couple entries from that moment. 21st of September, 2024.
00:32:41
Speaker
I had a nightmare last night that I was fighting the Israeli military, and I was hiding from them down a steep hill. I was armed and planned to ambush them, or maybe just hide in the sagebrush out of sight until they passed.
00:32:53
Speaker
My objective was not clear. While I tried to figure that out in a dream, they found me. I could see them on the ledge above me, and I knew they had spotted me. For whatever reason, my gun and my bullets wouldn't reach them.
00:33:07
Speaker
It was only a matter of time before they shot me. It was such a helpless feeling. And in recalling the details, it was obvious that this dream was based on that day in Beta, when the Israeli forces stood on the high ground and easily picked off Aishinor from a compromised position in Olive Tree's below.
00:33:27
Speaker
And then October 2024. twenty twenty four The past two weeks have been a strange mix of feelings, sadness, despair, numbness, and confusion. Activities have mostly consisted of sleeping, meeting with friends to check in and process the murder, few outdoor activities, and indulgent eating, likely as a way to escape the pain and the accompanying feelings of helplessness surrounding Aishinor's brutal death.
00:33:54
Speaker
One of the most jarring emotions that struck me for a few days was an intense rage. It was sparked by seeing a series of Palestine stickers, including one of Aishin Moore, defaced in the train station.
00:34:08
Speaker
Seeing her face scratched and colored over, ostensibly by local Zionists, sent me over the edge. The object of my anger became every single Zionist, but it also brought up lots of specific Washington state politicians.
00:34:21
Speaker
Not that any people were, but let's not be fooled by these people, these politicians calling for an independent investigation into Aishinaur's murder. Fuck them. A real investigation would find them guilty of her murder.
00:34:36
Speaker
Her blood is on their hands. I will spare the rest of you the sordid details of my vengeful fantasies. Friends have asked how I dealt with such overwhelming emotions.
00:34:48
Speaker
Unfiltered writing helped. Venting for a few people helped. I even had the chance to do some body-based therapy techniques to help relieve some of my rage. All of these have eased the burning feeling inside.
00:35:02
Speaker
And yet, there is still a part of me that wonders if the rage is not the most useful of all the feelings that can arise in the grieving process. Of course, it can easily become directed at those who don't deserve it, and that is certainly a mistake.
00:35:15
Speaker
but if it can be honed and precisely targeted at the true enemies, can it not be the motivation some of us need to overcome our instincts towards self-preservation? This inability to direct our anger at the correct target seems to be one of the fatal flaws of those who espouse a revolutionary commitment.
00:35:33
Speaker
The frequency with which movements and projects are ripped apart by interpersonal conflicts and harms, often the result of misplaced rage is well known and has likely been experienced by each and every one of us.
00:35:44
Speaker
This is one of the potential pitfalls of grief. In our inability to make sense of heinous domination and abuse, and in our feeling of helplessness to stop it or even hold the offending parties responsible, we look for other explanations or people to blame.
00:36:00
Speaker
So, may our rage burn bright until total liberation, and may it be directed at our true enemies and not at each other.
00:36:10
Speaker
Later in the week, I started the ongoing process of constructing small altar in my apartment in honor of Eishenmer. I burned candles and incense. In front of a large version of her martyr poster, I placed a river rock and a rock from the seashore with a small seashell perched on top of it from the river to the sea.
00:36:32
Speaker
In between the rocks I sat a small tea saucer on which I emptied a container of soil from the land of Palestine, a few dried olive leaves from Al-Quds, and a dusty rock from her grave in Didim, Turkey.
00:36:46
Speaker
Next to these items I placed a framed stylized Fulistine placard written in Arabic calligraphy. The most recent addition to the altar is an old wooden slingshot symbolizing the remarkable and everlasting resistance of the Palestinians.
00:37:01
Speaker
Each morning, I spend a few minutes looking at Aishinor's face amidst this memorial and process on completing what has happened. On occasion, few tears drip from my eyelids and slide down my cheek.
00:37:14
Speaker
Sometimes a groan of agony, sometimes a shake of the head. and do not feel weak when my morning morning bubbles to the surface. I only feel weak that my tears don't translate to effective and decisive actions.
00:37:28
Speaker
These are the twists and turns that my grief takes. Undoubtedly, I have not reached the end of this whiny road. For now, all I can say is that life is composed of dying and mourning. Yet still, we must honor our martyrs.
00:37:42
Speaker
We must destroy what destroys us, what destroys the people of Palestine. We must globalize the Intifada.
00:37:52
Speaker
Thank you so much for sharing. um These are really powerful words and I think your questions about the relationship between grief in anger and the instinct towards self-preservation and revolutionary commitment are really, really important for people to contemplate.
00:38:14
Speaker
Yeah, i really appreciate you being so open. Before we go into further questions, do you have any other reflections on reading that now? And now that i guess just a few months have passed.
00:38:28
Speaker
And you've probably shared this story with others before. and just curious. think It's been really unclear to me like what to do, how to honor her, how to remember her, how to give a report back since I've returned.
00:38:46
Speaker
And so the best thing I can come up with to share are these journal entries because they just seem like the most honest words. And yet, mean, I shared them when I initially sent them out to my small group of friends.
00:39:03
Speaker
I've shared them in one other setting since then, but other than that, this is only the second time like reading them out loud. and I guess it's it's uncomfortable, both because of the the memories.
00:39:21
Speaker
And like the first time I read them, I was, I was like sobbing the whole time. Today I'm a little more composed, but I also, I also found myself while reading them, like wondering if it was too intimate and like questioning whether I should be sharing these things, especially because they mentioned other people.
00:39:43
Speaker
So yeah yeah, that's kind of what I'm wrestling with right now. Yeah. um Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes these conversations around the political can can avoid the emotional experiences underlying a lot of political decisions or actions that people are taking. And it's not something that we're used to.
00:40:10
Speaker
talking about as you're saying, especially like publicly. So yeah, of course you should do what feels comfortable, but for what it's, for what it's worth, I think this is extremely nourishing input to have in, in our conversations around this.
00:40:28
Speaker
So to yeah thank you for sharing. Yeah. Thanks for that feedback. It's helpful. Yeah. So i I wanted to to talk again about ISM.
00:40:43
Speaker
many Many people come into nonviolent accompaniment work like the kind that ISM does because they believe in nonviolence as a strategy of of resistance to displacement or because they're committed to the ideology of nonviolence, as you you you pointed out that distinction earlier, resistance to displacement or to colonization or to war.
00:41:07
Speaker
and you mentioned earlier that your reason for joining ISM was slightly different, right? It was about being exposed to kind of the the intensity of of violence on the ground, right?
00:41:24
Speaker
And I'm wondering how this experience impacted your your understanding of the role of accompaniment, if at all, maybe it didn't change. And I guess kind of building off of that, what what is your analysis of the work that ISM does if you feel comfortable sharing?
00:41:43
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I first want to say, like, I have no idea if my analyses are on the right track or even close to being correct.
00:41:55
Speaker
There's plenty of people who've done Palestine solidarity work for much longer than me and have much more experience. And I will say that the people I met in ISM are some of the bravest and most dedicated people I've i've ever met. and And so I have a tremendous amount of respect for them as individuals and and for the organization and what they're trying to do.
00:42:21
Speaker
Also, as I mentioned before, like I actually didn't do on-the-ground work with ISM. I only had the training, and then the next day, Ayshinar was murdered, and then the rest of my few days there were spent but attending memorials.
00:42:39
Speaker
well And so there there are many ISM volunteers who have personal accounts and anecdotes about that their presence made a tangible difference in saving lives in in specific situations.
00:42:56
Speaker
And so I can't discount that. like that that Those experiences are real.
00:43:03
Speaker
If I'm to look at it more broadly, though, it does seem that this sort of model of accompaniment or protective presence kind of tends to devolve into like a service-oriented framework.
00:43:19
Speaker
What do you mean by service-oriented? and Instead of ah like collectively planning strategic acts of resistance, it it becomes more of like, let's call ISM volunteers.
00:43:38
Speaker
like Like the the select... number of Palestinians who live in in certain areas of the West Bank that have connections with ISM can be like, well, we can let's call them if we feel like we're under threat from Israeli military or settlers.
00:43:56
Speaker
So it's sort of this like crisis response model rather than like a long-term strategy of resistance. And that's not to say that it's not important to do that stuff.
00:44:10
Speaker
But I think if we're to step back and assess whether it's overall effective in like countering this like Zionist terror, I don't know that it is.
00:44:26
Speaker
I also think like the amount of violence and repression from the Israeli state makes a commitment to nonviolence at times seem illogical.
00:44:40
Speaker
So, like, one of the things I i always say is, like, there's this common phrase, like, you don't bring a knife to a gunfight. But, like, with this sort of model, you're not a like, you're only bringing a camera phone to to face off against these, you know, very highly armed, violent forces.
00:45:01
Speaker
And it doesn't it doesn't seem sufficient. So, those yeah, those would be sort of my thoughts on, like, the broader strategy. Yeah.
00:45:13
Speaker
So to what sort of resistance strategy do you think would be effective? and And what sort of international solidarity do you think is useful in Palestine specifically, but also, I guess, in in any anti-colonial struggle? Yeah.
00:45:30
Speaker
Well, I mean, I think in the context of Palestine, like it seems clear that Israel... is not going to stop their settler colonial project and all the brutality that comes along with that unless the U.S. no longer backs them you know and militarily, economically, diplomatically, etc.
00:45:53
Speaker
So I guess that points to the broader idea that an alternative is to to say you live in the U.S. rather than going to do protective presence in Palestine, to stay in the U.S. and try to, frankly, destroy U.S. empire from inside.
00:46:15
Speaker
i mean, there was a there was an essay released shortly after October 7, 2023, and its conclusion, it was about what what does make Palestine solidarity look like in the U.S., and the conclusion was pretty simple, but solidarity with Palestine means destroying the United States.
00:46:35
Speaker
I think that's generally right. You know, it's it's ah it's a ah project of of empire, but how to do that becomes a much more difficult question.
00:46:47
Speaker
Yeah, that was my next question to you. yeah yeah i see but Yeah, I think it's pretty unclear. like I think think in general as a movement, there's not a clear direction.
00:47:00
Speaker
From what I can tell, sort of the most inspiring thing are direct action campaigns of sabotage and poverty destruction. Those seem like the most tangible acts of solidarity that I've seen.
00:47:11
Speaker
So specifically, Palestine Action's campaign of targeting Elbit systems, which is the largest or one of Israel's largest weapon manufacturers.
00:47:24
Speaker
And then, you know, I think there's been other small direct actions that are designed to lend at the material support from the state of Israel. And i'm I'm certainly not the most knowledgeable on this, but from what I'm aware of, Palestine actions is the one that has had like a sustained campaign with with some victories. you know in terms of like shutting down factories and offices for this arms manufacturer.
00:47:50
Speaker
And I think a lot of those victories have come in the UK, although there has been activities on the East Coast of the U.S. s as well. Right. Yeah, so you you just talked about logical forms of resistance in in the U.S. Being in Palestine and going through this intense experience.
00:48:11
Speaker
Are you walking away from that with an understanding of what Palestinian resistance can can or should look like? Of course, you're not the authority on that. But after this experience, I'm curious what your thoughts are on on how Palestinian resistance is often talked about or portrayed in Western media and and maybe how that contrasts with what you felt or what you found or what you learned after you went there.
00:48:38
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i think obviously sort of the imperialist position of Western media that any sort of armed struggle is like illegitimate or barbaric or something is is nonsense.
00:48:54
Speaker
So i don't I guess I don't have a need to go into that a lot. But I do think that just a basic understanding of the history of Palestine and how popular movements that were not armed or not primarily armed, you know, have been like systematically crushed and defeated.
00:49:20
Speaker
militarily, but also through sham negotiations like the Oslo Accords and stuff like that, then I think if you just have like a pretty basic understanding of that history, and then on top of that, seeing the extreme level of violence that Palestinians face on a daily basis, it's it's pretty hard to argue but anything, any form of resistance makes more sense than taking up arms.
00:49:52
Speaker
And, you know, I think the the counter argument is that like, well, the Israeli military so advanced, it gets all the support from the U.S. s military. There's no way that like a guerrilla struggle can defeat this military.
00:50:10
Speaker
And maybe that's true. And I'm i'm certainly no expert on armed struggle. I really don't know hardly anything, but I do think there are kind of counter arguments to that logic. So the the piece that I'm going to mention is not exactly about that, but it gets into some of like the strategy of armed struggle in the context of Palestine.
00:50:33
Speaker
And that's this essay, but it was also like ah a video essay. It was both a written essay and a video essay called The Gaza Ghetto Uprising that maybe you can link to in the show notes or something, because I think that that gets into a lot more of the details of why armed struggle makes sense in the context of Palestine.
00:50:55
Speaker
And Yeah, despite sort of like tremendous difference in power between between Israeli and military and the Palestinian armed resistance.
00:51:06
Speaker
um Yeah, well, I think it's definitely worth including that. I think I was also. wanting to hear your point around the struggle around supporting, you know, like ah the axis of resistance, for example, or you have like multiple groups that are organized armed groups fighting the Israeli military, but that are, that hold statist or capitalist or,
00:51:32
Speaker
certainly not leftist or progressive or and certainly not anarchist values. And I think that's a really interesting nuance that doesn't necessarily have an answer, but something that we we had talked about earlier. Right.
00:51:47
Speaker
Yeah. So I'm wondering if you wanted to weigh in on that at all, or maybe talk a little bit more about that nuance. I'll try. think, so I think there's, there's kind of, um, for most of my life,
00:52:01
Speaker
The visible Palestine solidarity movement in the U.S. has taken a very almost pacifist, sort of liberal approach, public at least publicly, in that like nobody used to talk about supporting Hamas or...
00:52:20
Speaker
Like there almost wasn't even an acknowledgement that like armed struggle existed. it was just like Palestinians were only victims. And so, you know, we had to like feel bad for them.
00:52:33
Speaker
That I think has changed in the past year, 16 months or however long it's been in that there, there is now sizable chunk of the solidarity movement, which takes what,
00:52:48
Speaker
but I could broadly call them the decolonial left, you know which is like Hamas and the other armed factions in the Palestinian resistance, along with the broader axis of resistance in the region, are kind of the vanguard of anti-colonial struggle. And so they need to be like uncritically supported.
00:53:11
Speaker
to be in solidarity with Palestine is is to... to support these groups and these political parties without question. And I find that a little problematic as well. But as soon as you say that, there's there's really, from what I can tell, there's really not space to say that because it's automatically assumed that you have some ideological aversion to violence, right, as a form of struggle.
00:53:39
Speaker
But that's not where I'm coming from. Hmm. Personally, like I said in my previous answer, I think the only thing that really makes sense in the context of a place like Palestine is armed struggle. by objection to Hamas, which I don't, I'm not a ah scholar of Hamas.
00:53:58
Speaker
I only know what they've said publicly that's readily available. But from what I can tell, their political vision has nothing to do with abolishing capitalism or like a centralized state authority. authority And so it's hard to align my my political values with that sort of vision.
00:54:25
Speaker
The objection is not that they have taken up armed struggle, you know. And I also think it's like, it's also true that it's very hard to get accurate information about the Palestinian resistance factions in the US. there's There's a lot of obviously pro-Zionist propaganda that its entire purpose is to discredit Palestinian resistance. So I think all those things should be acknowledged. And also there should be
00:54:56
Speaker
a really honest debate amongst revolutionaries about what what is the political vision of these organizations that are considered the leaders of anti-colonial struggles.
00:55:14
Speaker
And I think we should also look at it from a historical perspective. of like There's usually and anti-colonial struggles of the past that a variety of political orientations and visions involved in the struggle, but almost always, if not always, sort of like bourgeois and authoritarian or semi-authoritarian faction wins out, right? So once independence is gained, then there's ah ah new, some faction that was involved
00:55:46
Speaker
in the struggle becomes the ruling party, takes state power, and just recreates a new class society that is, continues to be miserable for the majority of people. So like,
00:56:02
Speaker
If that's the result, I think we have to approach anti-colonial struggle with that knowledge and with a ah critical lens and a vision for something different than that.
00:56:16
Speaker
Something that an anti-capitalist future, anti-statist future. Yeah. I mean, I'm not asking... I'm not asking you to answer this question exactly, but like maybe this is a rhetorical question then. But how does one create an armed anti-colonial struggle that doesn't lead to a new state or a new capitalist regime in in replacement of of the colonizer?
00:56:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's a big question. I have no idea. and I know. And I think your point around ah how there isn't a lot of space for nuance, because people often do assume that you're asking that question with an ideological goal, right? right Because that question does very easily lead to the conclusion that any kind of armed struggle is is statist, right? that You end up sort of coming back to a weirdly pacifist right platform, um which is not, I don't think that's actually the ideology of the people that are making that point.
00:57:31
Speaker
But it's it's really tricky not to not to fall into that or not to be read that way. Mm-hmm. So i I guess, you know, and I mean, I think there's there's also more to be said there.
00:57:41
Speaker
you know, you're asking, does it actually work? Is it actually effective? And you mentioned the Gazagato uprising, which is a great video essay everyone should check out. But um I think seeing the ceasefire maybe shed some light on that, right? Is that like, oh, guerrilla groups can have no impact or ultimately powerless in the face of these giant, often like Western military superpowers. And I think we just saw from the ceasefire yesterday that that's that's not the case.
00:58:09
Speaker
But we'll have, that's another show entirely. We'll have to do an interview with the... With the Gaza military analyst at some point. Yeah. so So another question that I wanted to ask you was ah question that I think you actually recommended when i but I tried to have a conversation with you about how we might best have this conversation.
00:58:32
Speaker
okay And it was pretty simple. It's just how did this experience change you? I think... um i think
00:58:43
Speaker
As I mentioned, think I mentioned it in the journal excerpts that I read. you know, I did, I did contemplate death a lot prior to going But this experience of of losing a friend in such an abrupt way has, I guess, just increased the the amount that think about my own death and the death of of people close to me.
00:59:14
Speaker
i think, you know, the fact that I overlook the possibility of the deaths of my friends and comrades, like really that really hit me hard. And I think for me, and maybe for many of us, like our own deaths are more acceptable than the deaths of our friends, family members, or loved ones.
00:59:34
Speaker
And i think like the governments and ruling classes will... like take advantage of that. They do take advantage of that.
00:59:46
Speaker
I've had friends in Palestine talk about how there's there's many activists in the popular resistance who've spent many, and had a lot of time in prison, been arrested many times, spent years in prison.
01:00:02
Speaker
And it doesn't stop them. It doesn't deter them from their organizing activities. But when the Israeli authorities threaten to kill their children or their partners or their family members, then that has a completely different effect. And and it can really demobilize these really dedicated people.
01:00:24
Speaker
and And I don't think that's unique to Palestine. like I think that's something that exists for a lot of us. And so it's really something we'll have to grapple with going forward.
01:00:36
Speaker
I think I've been pretty lost and floundering since I returned. it's I find it hard to feel like there's any activity worth doing. And so kind of like for lack of knowing what else to do, i've resorted to carrying around like physical memories of Ishanore and then just passing them out to whoever is interested, whoever will listen.
01:01:01
Speaker
You know, politically, it's a pretty useless activity, but i think it gives me something physically tangible to hold on to and to do. makes me feel as if I'm, like, honoring her and remembering her in some small way.
01:01:17
Speaker
Thank you. So I'm also wondering about how you're feeling about the ceasefire announcement, what thoughts and emotions are coming up for you right now?
01:01:31
Speaker
and what do you see on the horizon but Palestine? and And what do you want to see going forward? Yeah. Um,
01:01:44
Speaker
I don't feel like I have a great grasp on the ceasefire details, but in general, I feel mixed. So on the one hand, there's like widespread reports and videos, and I've seen some of them that friends have sent, of Palestinians celebrating the announcement of the ceasefire in both Gaza and the West Bank.
01:02:06
Speaker
Also, i should I should note that in the West Bank and videos that I saw, was the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli military was also like cracking down on these celebrations.
01:02:18
Speaker
So you've even like, you know, ah brief moments of relief and jubilation are like repressed. man what do you think is What do you think that repression is about?
01:02:32
Speaker
i think, I don't know. I guess I don't know. But i think that there is sort of like a There is something very... know the word. like Inhumane doesn't do it justice, but like inhumane in all areas about the state of Israel. and that like like yeah like Even like small moments of joy and relief are... are like policed, you know?
01:03:01
Speaker
And it makes me also think of, like, you know, in Palestine, there's a practice when people are murdered to, like, make martyr posters for them, and you see them up all over the place.
01:03:11
Speaker
You know, oftentimes kids, everybody, they're all over. And depending on where it is, like, the Israeli soldiers will, like, take them down or, like, spray paint over them.
01:03:23
Speaker
So like in Beta, I went and visited after, a few days after Aishina was killed. And there were 17 martyrs from Beta over the past three years, all from those Friday demonstrations.
01:03:40
Speaker
And they they had, they weren't posters, but they were their faces. Mm-hmm. ah stencils of their faces were spray painted on the on the side of a building near where people pray every Friday. and But the Israeli military had come and spray painted over every single one of them.
01:04:01
Speaker
And so it just reminds me that like even even in death, like there's no dignity allowed. And that strikes me as somewhat similar to this, of like,
01:04:13
Speaker
I mean, this is a momentary halt in a genocide or maybe, and people are not even allowed to, like, breathe.
01:04:28
Speaker
I mean, the little bit that I know, it seems like there's... sort of an unclear number of Palestinian prisoners are going to be released, or potentially.
01:04:39
Speaker
There's some sort of like equation of 30 to 50 Palestinian prisoners for every one Israeli hostage something. i mean that So that seems like that was a clear goal of the October 7th operation, was to have people that they could exchange for prisoners to to free, because there's you know so many Palestinian prisoners. So, I mean, that that's something to be...
01:05:11
Speaker
celebrated. Certainly, ah this a temporary reprieve from the bombing assaults in Gaza is good, but I also have a lot of trepidation around it.
01:05:22
Speaker
and Even in the past 24 hours, there have been reports of at least 80 Palestinians killed in Gaza. What does a ceasefire mean when Israel can just ramp up its death machine?
01:05:41
Speaker
in the hours leading up to the you know the official start of the ceasefire. And in the West Bank, like there's been airstrikes since announcement of this of the ceasefire deal, airstrikes in the Janine refugee camp.
01:05:56
Speaker
And as of yesterday, there was at least 10 Palestinians there who've been martyred. And there's there's other Israeli military aggressions and increases of aggressions in the West Bank just in the past day. so it's hard to feel any sense of relief.
01:06:13
Speaker
And I think it's clear that even if there is this ceasefire, the state of Israel will not stop its reign of terror.
01:06:24
Speaker
And then even on like its recent record of breaching ceasefire agreements, we can't reasonably expect them to follow even the limited terms of this deal. And certainly, like in the long run going forward,
01:06:39
Speaker
This doesn't seem to do anything to limit the longevity or strength of the Zions project. I think like in the U.S. realm, foreign policy, it's kind of another blow to Biden.
01:06:58
Speaker
It kind of demonstrates how uninterested Biden, Harris, and the Democrats have been in preserving even a small number of Palestinian lives in Gaza.
01:07:09
Speaker
and know't I don't really understand like why ceasefire is going through now, but it seems in the media there's speculation that Trump has has something to do with pushing for it.
01:07:20
Speaker
And it's just like just like, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that Biden... has a more genocidal and racist policy towards Palestinians than even a horrific figure like Trump.
01:07:35
Speaker
And so I think that Biden's administration will go down in history as a terribly genocidal racist and callously inhumane. And then I think another way to look at it is like...
01:07:50
Speaker
For people and internationally who consider themselves in solidarity with Palestine, i think ceasefire should never be the primary demand.
01:08:02
Speaker
And I'm concerned that news of this quote-unquote deal will lead many, especially in the U.S., to think that like... The issue is over, but the reality of the settler colonial project continues, and the U.S. s support for Israel persists, and it will continue to make life of Palestine deadly and miserable.
01:08:23
Speaker
And i saw I saw this editorial in Mondo Weiss from yesterday, written by by an author in Gaza, and I wondered if I could read an excerpt from it. Yeah, please do.
01:08:37
Speaker
The author's name is, and I apologize because I probably won't pronounce it correctly, but Ruah. First name is R-O-A-A. Last name is S-H-A-M-A-L-L-A-K-H.
01:08:54
Speaker
Gotcha. And the title of the editorial is called, The Gaza Ceasefire Will Not Cure the Wounds of Genocide. And so the writer says, for us, and I'm kind of like skipping around a little bit, but for us, the war began long before October 7th, 2023, and continues in the ashes of what was once our home.
01:09:18
Speaker
The world's ceasefire is a fabricated pause in our endless torment. The world seeks its own resolution, a quick fix to soothe the conscience, but for us, the ceasefire is just another fleeting moment in a long history of erasure.
01:09:33
Speaker
And then skipping forward a little bit. As the world celebrates the ceasefire, we are left to question its meaning. What does it truly signify for us in Gaza? It is not an end to the war.
01:09:45
Speaker
It is simply a temporary lull in the violence. It does not undo the devastation or does it heal the wounds inflicted on us. Ceasefire is nothing more than a global performance, signal that the world has done enough to appease its own conscience.
01:10:01
Speaker
But for us, it is nothing more than an intermission and an endless tragedy. When the bombs stop, the trauma does not fade. The streets still lie in ruins, the poisoned water still courses through our bodies, and the toxic memories of the bombings linger like an invisible disease.
01:10:20
Speaker
Don't return to normal. We adapt to a new kind of existence, one that is born from the wreckage of our past and the uncertainty of our future. Ceasefire does not undo the loss of homes, of lives, of family members.
01:10:34
Speaker
It does not bring back what has been destroyed. does not restore dignity, nor does it heal the wounds of displacement. For the world, ah ceasefire is the end of the story, the resolution that allows the audience to turn the page.
01:10:48
Speaker
But for us, it is just another silence, another chapter in the story that never truly ends. The bombs may stop, but the wounds they leave behind will continue to bleed.
01:10:59
Speaker
And the silence that follows is not peace. It is the deafening quiet of lives left in limbo, waiting for the next round of violence to begin. Hmm. It's interesting to reflect on this now. I'm i'm thinking about of the parallel that I think there is between calls for a ceasefire and calls for divestment in the student movement, where ceasefire is, of course, something that we we all want, right? Like, ah as I think you called it, like a temporary lull or a pause in a genocide.
01:11:35
Speaker
Of course, people don't want continued attacks But there's a way in which calling for that kind of sets us up for forgetting the rest afterwards. and And with divestment, I think in the student movement, that was a huge issue is that people can rally behind divestment as a clear as a clear goal, calling on universities to divest.
01:12:04
Speaker
But then the the the goal is actually so much greater than divestment. And in many ways, divestment, when it's achieved, is counterinsurgent because so many universities actually use negotiations around divestment as a way to divert attention away from their support for Israel's genocide and instead...
01:12:26
Speaker
I don't know. I was talking about this recently with the with a friend who was talking who' is looking desperately for examples of ways that divestment negotiations have gone well. And the first thing they they found was Rutgers University, I guess, established a new department for Middle Eastern studies or something as part of their negotiations package. But there was no it was a diversion basically from, and and they established a committee to think about the possibility of maybe at some point in the future, pulling their money out of Israeli weapons. But it's interesting how those two things sort of function, you know, like, of course we want a ceasefire. Of course we want divestment.
01:13:09
Speaker
But then once that's achieved, it's very easy to, to get lost or have your attention diverted and to think there's no longer a conflict or there's no longer a ah need to continue fighting. And as I think you said to globalize the intifada, right?
01:13:28
Speaker
So I think those are really important things for, for people to keep in mind and think, thanks for sharing that, that clip. Sure. That's a good parallel too. I haven't, I haven't made that connection. but That's a good point.
01:13:42
Speaker
Do you, do you have other thoughts on the ceasefire? yeah. I think I also feel sort of conflicted around celebrating it. I think the first instinct where I am was to celebrate. And so we we had a little celebration, but it was so more, i think more than anything, we were wanting to be in community with other people that we feel aligned with and just just to share space with people. But it wasn't,
01:14:16
Speaker
there wasn't a sense of, oh, yeah okay, great, the genocide is over and we can all go back to our regular lives, like, at all. And I think, yeah, it's it's a complicated a complicated situation. I think in ways it's really inspiring that clearly the Palestinian resistance was able to actually meet there their goals on October 7th in resisting in some way ah Israeli occupation. But there's, of course, a huge difference between you know ah ceasefire and ending the occupation. And I think now I'm seeing this, like it's almost like there's a I don't know what to call that, like a ah sort of switch in discourse where calling for a ceasefire was always...
01:15:01
Speaker
it it sort of became a rallying cry of like the sort of liberal left. And now people are like, well, yeah, there's a ceasefire, but you always wanted more than a ceasefire. And so it's sort of like you're coming, you're sort of realizing like the failure of what calling for a ceasefire does.
01:15:19
Speaker
And so I can already see people even here at the local, you know, student movement level being like, yeah, a ceasefire is good, but we want an end to the occupation. Right.
01:15:32
Speaker
and making that really really clear is important right now but I also think it's important to celebrate and like seeing that people in Palestine were celebrating seeing that people in Gaza were celebrating I think just proves that point right it's like we do need to be able to be with each other and to breathe and and to appreciate a brief end to suffering in in some way when it when it occurs not that all suffering is ending but Yeah, it's like, how how do you hold both, so to speak?
01:16:05
Speaker
Totally, yeah. I think that's and that's right. Well, is there is there anything else that ah you want to share with listeners? This has been a pretty comprehensive discussion, but if there's any any other points that you want to make or questions that came up for you or comments you want to share, the floor is yours.
01:16:27
Speaker
I think I would just say, I think the struggle will continue in Palestine. ah number of Palestinians will continue to resist in various ways. And kind of the burning question is whether people internationally...
01:16:42
Speaker
will mount any sort of materially effective struggle to assist the liberation efforts there. You know, I think like over the past 15, 16 months, there's been more numbers of people and more attention paid to Palestine than ever before, at least in the U.S. and in my experience.
01:17:03
Speaker
But it didn't have, you know, it wasn't nearly enough in terms of like having a material effect. And so I think that so far the answer has been no.
01:17:16
Speaker
And as courageous and steadfast as Palestinians are in their resistance, like will take it's it it seems that it will take a significant shift from a large number of people outside of Palestine who are willing to fight too.
01:17:36
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that also... That's also come up in in our conversation earlier, I think. But you're saying you feel like this the only way this is going to move forward is with international solidarity and Palestine?
01:17:53
Speaker
Yeah, I guess I wouldn't say there's nothing people can do and their own countries outside of Palestine, but I think it it needs to be more significantly more risky than what people um the majority of people have been willing to do so far.
01:18:12
Speaker
And in terms of like what would like an international armed struggle look like, I mean, i like I said, i I really am no expert on it. I don't know how it would come about.
01:18:24
Speaker
I mean, I'm also limited in my knowledge of this, but I think the ah model of like international volunteers who went to Rojava to fight alongside or be in within the YPG and YPGA,
01:18:40
Speaker
seems like a ah different kind of, different model of international solidarity than, you know, what we've been talking about in Palestine. But whether it's, I think a quick response that I would get is like, that's a totally different situation. And I i think that's true. It is a different situation. So I, I have no idea if that sort of thing is even feasible in Palestine. Yeah. I know. So, you know, it harkens back to the Spanish civil war as well. And like, yeah,
01:19:10
Speaker
yeah the internationals who who came to fight against fascists there. like There is a ah history and a context for that sort of solidarity, but of course it's different on the ground in each time and place.
01:19:25
Speaker
yeah But it's just, it's it's really interesting to me that you would have this experience doing accompaniment work and then come away with that kind of analysis.
01:19:38
Speaker
I think it's worth reflecting on. But yeah, is there anything else that you want to share? Otherwise, think we can end it here. I guess just to reemphasize that my critical perspectives on the overall strategy of groups like the ISM could very well be wrong and also are not meant in any way as like personal critiques or attacks.
01:20:00
Speaker
Like I said, I think I have great respect for people who have done and continue to do that work. The way forward is not clear. certainly not offering any clear answers. So i mean I mean no disrespect.
01:20:14
Speaker
Well, thank you so much. i really, really appreciate you taking the time to talk about something so important and so intense and for sharing so much about your own personal experience.
01:20:27
Speaker
It's been a really fascinating conversation and I'm excited to to share it. Yeah, thanks for talking with me. I appreciate it.
01:20:42
Speaker
Thanks for listening to today's episode of The Beautiful Idea. News and analysis from the front lines of anarchist and autonomous struggles everywhere. Catch you next time.