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Episode 2:  Peter Gelderloos and Prince Shakur image

Episode 2: Peter Gelderloos and Prince Shakur

The Beautiful Idea
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On this episode of The Beautiful Idea, with the second Trump administration only weeks away, we sit down to speak with two anarchist authors and thinkers, Peter Gelderloos and Prince Shakur.

Peter is the author of such classics as How Non-Violence Protects the State and Worshiping Power, and also has recently published two new books, They Will Beat the Memory Out of Us and Organization, Continuity, Community. Peter is also currently publishing on substack.

Prince Shakur is an organizer, author, and one of two hosts who run The Dugout, a Black anarchist podcast which you can check out here and follow on Instagram. Shakur is also the author of When They Tell You To Be Good.

During our episode we speak with both Peter and Prince about their thoughts on the coming Trump administration and how people involved in social movements and struggles should ready themselves and their communities. Is it fair to call Trump a fascist and what can we expect from the incoming administration? What cracks can we see forming within the ruling order going forward, and what opportunities and challenges do autonomous rebels face in this new terrain?

Transcript

Introduction to Anarchist Media

00:00:09
Speaker
Hello. You're listening to The Beautiful Idea, a podcast from a collective of several anarchist and autonomous media producers scattered around the world. We're bringing you interviews and stories from the front lines of autonomous social movements and struggles, as well as original commentary and analysis. Follow us on Mastodon and at the beautiful idea.show. Thanks for listening.

Interview with Peter Gelderloos & Prince Shakur

00:00:46
Speaker
We're here to interview Peter Gelderloos and Prince Shakur. Peter is an anarchist writer who recently published two books, one with Pluto Press, called They Will Beat the Memory Out of Us, forcing nonviolence on forgetful movements, and the other with detritus books called Organization, Continuity, and Community.
00:01:04
Speaker
And Prince Jakur is the author of When They Tell You To Be Good. They're also an activist and co-host on the Black Anarchist podcast The Dugout. So with that brief intro, for those who don't know, do you all want to add to that or tell us who you are and the work that you do generally? Prince, maybe we could start with you.
00:01:23
Speaker
Yeah, I'll start. I'm born and raised in Ohio. I've done a bunch of different movement work over the last 10 years from student organizing to boycott organizing with labor unions, a lot of environmental work, um a lot of racial justice work, a lot of mutual aid work.
00:01:41
Speaker
Yeah, and i mean I think this year has definitely been a lot of work centered around like putting out black anarchist ideology in media. Me and a bunch of folks here locally have been doing a lot of mutual aid and legal defense work related to the Boeing 5 case um that has been happening here in Ohio with the folks that protested a Boeing facility, which has major ties to Israel. um And yeah, thank you for having me here.
00:02:09
Speaker
Thanks for being here. ah Peter, do you want to introduce yourself? Sure. um Yeah. My name is Peter Gelder-Loose, and I grew up in Virginia, lived mostly in Catalunya, but also coming in coming back um you know to the States frequently. And for the past couple of years, I've been living in Cleveland.
00:02:30
Speaker
Yeah, I do a lot of writing and movement research, and aside from that, I've just been participating in social movements and different infrastructure projects or other other anarchist projects, wherever I happen to be living.
00:02:44
Speaker
Well, thanks to both of you for coming on and and talking with us. We're really interested in having a conversation about the context that we're moving into with Trump's new presidency and also talking about anti-repression work that people are doing while also including some of the some of an an awareness of kind of the past political movements and what we can learn from them. So this is sort of meant to be a long-form discussion around our current context, applying our previous context to it, and talking about some of the ah sort of emblematic cases that people are are thinking about right now.
00:03:17
Speaker
To kick us off, I had a question for you,

Is Trump's Presidency White Supremacy or Fascism?

00:03:20
Speaker
Peter. In the past, you've argued that Trump does not represent fascism in the classical sense of threatening and disrupting democracy, but instead represents a very different American project and a strengthening of white supremacy.
00:03:35
Speaker
And so I wanted to ask if you could clarify the distinction you're making there between American white supremacy and classical fascism and why you're making that distinction, like what is lost or gained when we call Trump a fascist. And if your views have changed on this or not, or if you think that recent recent events have strengthened that argument.
00:03:57
Speaker
Yeah, so for me, the question really relates to one of the topics I've been focusing on lately, which is the question of memory and and intergenerational continuity in our struggles, really the the loss of memory and the lack of intergenerational continuity. These ruptures in this constant state of amnesia that we that we move through, which really puts us at a huge disadvantage.
00:04:19
Speaker
So it's important to remember how fascism ended in its original incarnation. The the most powerful fascist states were defeated militarily, ah the ones that were a couple that survived and the longest lasting of those and and probably like, you know, the, you know,
00:04:38
Speaker
It could be, ah you know, considered like a tie between Portugal and and and Spain, but like, you know, clearly the most politically significant and and larger of those was the one in Spain. And in that one, fascists themselves voluntarily transitioned back into democracy. The ruling class realized that democracy was much more effective for its interests. Fascism arose at a time when there was considered to be a major danger of revolution, so a large part of the ruling and the owning classes decided to suspend democracy in order to try to avail themselves of kind of like no holds barred fight against these revolutionary movements. One thing that they hadn't seen yet was that statist revolutionary movements will control themselves, like there's no such thing in the end as a a statist
00:05:30
Speaker
revolution or a statist movement that's anti-capitalist, all of those, you know, capital C communist revolutions came back around very quickly to capitalism, to state capitalism, where they never left it. And and also, you know, the context changed, part of the danger shifted, but but in the end, like the ruling class saw that there their interests were better served by democracy than than by fascism. ah So the the I mean, the opposition isn't between white supremacy and fascism, you know, ah but all of these you know European ah originating systems, all of all of the institutional framework of of modernity, of you know of like this entire global framework that we have in a political, economic, and cultural sense is all white supremacist.

Critique of Antifa's US Context

00:06:14
Speaker
I think the point I was making in the um the article that I think you're referencing is is about like the you know the need in the U.S. that there is like a very strong
00:06:25
Speaker
history of anti-racist resistance and struggle in the US and that Antifa was like an importation from a European context. It had plenty of errors in the European context. It also made more sense and was more effective in the European context and that that importation to the US in the mid-Ots sorry, the mid-teens. The midteens um last decade was a big mistake because A, it didn't learn the lessons that were learned in the European context. B, it totally turned its back on a a much stronger and more deeply rooted anti-colonial, anti-racist struggle ah you know in the settler state that we live in.
00:07:05
Speaker
And C, it kind of got rid of the the best thing about anti-fascism, which is the name. It's a very clear name. We're against fascism, very like this like you know trendy, dumb, Antifa thing, which is just like a German shortening of anti-fascist. So it wasn't a very good move strategically, and and like you know it was kind of us participating in this loss of history, which is unfortunate when when we do it too, because you know capitalism is always like stealing our history. um But the real opposition is between fascism or or other kinds of dictatorship and democracy. There have been moments in the past and there are regions of the world where pretty permanently the ruling classes will prefer dictatorship. because I mean democracies can and do utilize the same level of violence that dictatorships do. I mean, you know, look at Israel right now as a great example, you know, carrying out that genocide, but they need a way to portray it as exceptional.
00:08:00
Speaker
um In Israel, that's through a huge amount of white supremacy and you know control

Democracy vs. Fascism: Tools of Social Control

00:08:05
Speaker
ah you know over like media discourses. um And in a settler state, it's easier to do that. In the US also, like there's like constant use of dictatorial means and levels of violence against indigenous people, against black people. And again, you know white supremacy provides that kind of... It's not a state of exception. It's it's you know just an exception.
00:08:24
Speaker
you know i Very little doubt that um you know more parts of the world in in the coming years or decades will again enter a context in which it is more strategic for the ruling class to go back into you know some kind of a dictatorship, some kind of you know more permanent state of exception.
00:08:42
Speaker
But you knowre like we're seeing you know still like an overall trend, like you know not just in Europe and North America, but also like largely in in South America, a more lasting adherence to democracy because of the special advantages that democracy brings to to capitalism, to the ruling class. like A special set of tools, not just of repression, but also of recuperation.
00:09:05
Speaker
And so having that kind of counterinsurgency a lens is is really vital to understanding the actual strategic interests of of the ruling class. um And yeah, to really quickly add on, like another problem with that is in 2016, 2017, a lot of people in the States were like warning about like a coming fascist takeover.
00:09:25
Speaker
without you know bothering to do the work of like really understanding like the difference between fascism and democracy and how democracy is not a good thing. like Democracy has always been um like a system based on enslavement and militarism, ah but it just allows for more participation in our own exploitation and and in the mechanisms of social control.
00:09:45
Speaker
And they were spreading these warnings, but not doing like not actually learning from the history of like resistance against fascism, not learning how anti-fascist united fronts were actually very effective tools of the institutional left to destroy revolutionary movements, and also you know not getting these mechanisms ready for collective survival of like having to go on the run, having safe houses, having you know good stashes, you know being like you know more armed and all that.
00:10:12
Speaker
Like not enough of that was actually happening to like really take it seriously. It was just kind of alarmism ah One good thing is that people in you know nowadays. I think are doing a better job of like understanding like you know what the different kinds of you know disaster that are already happening and that you know will become more likely. you know what What that's going to look like, what that is looking like and how to survive that you know collectively, how to fight back against that. So people are actually like you know honing that down and like you know we're doing a better job of of preparing for it.
00:10:45
Speaker
I think like now like we're definitely closer to to that as a possibility than than we were in 2016, 2017. But like again, like i mean Trump is an opportunist who was definitely and or like an authoritarian, not in a very strategic way except out of his very strictly personal interests. He's definitely the kind of person who undermines standard democratic practice and democratic values, so he could certainly create like enough turbulence to allow for like a turn towards, uh, towards some kind of dictatorship. I mean, it probably wouldn't be fascism. Like that was like pretty historically, uh, specific, but like, you know, some of their kind of dictatorship, I think is more possible now than, than it was in, in 2016. I think it's still.
00:11:33
Speaker
I'd still give it less than a 50-50 chance for the next four years. the like What that kind of far-right movement looks like, and again, far-right you know can be pro-democratic or it can be pro-dictatorship, that's changed a lot. you know like Groups, formations like the Proud Boys are much less important, and I think we see like the the the more lasting danger and the more real danger are Christian nationalists.
00:11:59
Speaker
But in in like the kind of the people who are in Trump's orbit and who are using Trump to get more access to power, you have like a really wide range from people who are basically just corrupt politicians who want to operate in a democracy and whose interests are best served by some kind of democratic government, you know with you know widespread corruption and you know more tolerance of that, to folks like, what's the name, Pete Hegseth?
00:12:24
Speaker
the you know Vet and then news commentator who kind of articulates like, a you know Republic versus ah versus democracy kind of distinction which you know would not be outright dictatorship But would definitely be a curtailment of rights and that's definitely someone to keep an eye on like if he like ends up actually Getting into Trump's government and lasting there um As as you know, one of the most dynamic representatives of of that tendency someone this time around, you know who's actually you know, ah in favor of of dictatorship, like, you know, be interesting to keep an eye on, um you know, Steve Bannon and anyone associated with him on Elon Musk. But yeah, again, it's, it's, it's, it's like a mishmash. And it's not like, a obviously, the right wing doesn't have to be a politically coherent movement, you know, not even to the extent that the that the left does. But it's, it's important to recognize it is a mishmash of
00:13:19
Speaker
very, very different and in some cases opposing strategies that's at this point primarily motivated by self-interest. And that could cause enough turbulence to allow like a breakdown.
00:13:30
Speaker
And and

Anarchists vs. Leftists: Allies or Opponents?

00:13:31
Speaker
one one element that's important to consider in that is that often, i mean the right wing and the left wing, both of them are are motivated by a desire to to preserve, to project, and to extend state power, and and with it, you know capitalist economic mode. The left tries to do that by having more of an emphasis on recuperating and institutionalizing ah Claims from below the left is better at kind of renovating the image and you know the like participation in democratic systems and the right is often kind of you know, we're just like reacting more to like perceived loss of entitlement is trying to you know strengthen like you know more.
00:14:10
Speaker
traditional you know authoritarian hierarchical and oppressive values, even as they do often actually make innovative coalitions to to do that. That's the simplification. Both of them are are capable of more authoritarian or more participatory means, but you know for a very rough generalization, that's kind of the difference. But it's it's interesting to see how, and this is definitely the case now, the right wing by being so reactive to a perceived loss of special status or a perceived loss of of privilege and entitlement,
00:14:38
Speaker
They actually often damage their own systems faster than the left that they're unable to see the the loyalty to the system of the institutional left and so they wage war simultaneously on the lower classes and on the left and and they don't see you know that the left is often good at like smoothing over enormous existential problems like colonialism, racism, patriarchy, and all that. So the right wing strategies are very scary, especially to those those you know the to people who are not subjected to that level of violence you know day in, day out under any kind of government. But also right wing strategies are are often damaged the longer term interests of the state and of capitalism. um you know Yeah.
00:15:23
Speaker
You've spoken previously about the ways that anarchists are often incorrectly lumped in with the left. And so I think you're already sort of getting to this point, but you've made this distinction between what you call the rank and file of the left and its leadership. And you've pointed out how leftist leadership wants to protect exactly what you were just saying, right? Protect and renovate state authority to improve strategies for social control while right-wing leadership tends to weaken state power.
00:15:53
Speaker
And so I want to ask you more about the kinds of growth or diminishment of state power that we might be expecting to see on the horizon here in a minute. But in the meantime, I think this is an important, and Prince, I'd also be curious to hear your your thoughts on this too.
00:16:10
Speaker
An important question, right, is can you speak a little bit more about this distinction between leftists and anarchists? What do you think they have in common? Like, why are they so often lumped together? I think you're speaking a little bit to this just now, Peter, but where where do you think they diverge? and And similarly, why and how do you think it might be helpful or useful for anarchists to work with the rank and file of the left?
00:16:35
Speaker
And what about the rank and file of the right? um I think maybe youre you were just speaking to this, but I wanted to draw that out. um Yeah, I'll try to be a lot more brief this time. So this is another example of loss of historical memory. um In most of the world, i'm English for whatever reason or anglophone cultures, especially prone to to forgetting, but in most of the world, um anarchists are not understood to be a part of the left. But that doesn't mean that they're equidistant between the left and the right. So originally the term refers to the left side and the right side of of the isle, of parliament, of a congressional building. It stems from one of the French revolutions of the 1800s.
00:17:14
Speaker
So the left is you know a left wing of government-focused institutions, ideologies, strategies, or if it's like the very extreme left, then you know that can be referred to as the extra-parliamentary left, so a some kind of like you know leftist approach that is You know so like extreme or or or more radical which are also not synonyms in a radical meaning like looking at the roots of the problem that it's not currently at all represented in government during the ruling class or anything like that but still they're oriented towards the capture and renovation and change of state power.
00:17:51
Speaker
So you know they don't want to win an election, you know they want to win a revolution, but they're still, whether they admit it or not, they're still going to renovate capitalism and keep capitalism running. Just like with you know the the communist revolutions, which were state-oriented and leftist in Russia, Cuba, China, et cetera, which also continued. you know all like In Cuba, it continued the you know kind of colonial role assigned in the global economy to to Cuba as a cash crop exporter, but you know now in the ah Soviet sphere of influence in Russia, it it preserved Russian imperialism and Russian white supremacy you know in a reformed mode and you know so on and so forth, same with China.
00:18:31
Speaker
so It's really important to to keep that distinction, to not forget that distinction, because we need to have an understanding of how power actually works ah you know through mechanisms like recuperation. like The ability of people in power to say, you know or you know the ability to run an election and say, you know hey, you know all these police killings are a problem. Or like, hey, all these deaths on the border, that really is a problem. People's loss in health care. like you know That's a problem, like to to kind of strike a sympathetic pose.
00:18:58
Speaker
with you know those of us who are facing you know some or various of these kinds of violence, but to fool us into thinking that the state is the vehicle to to solve those problems for us. So it keeps us disempowered, it keeps you know our own organizational and creative power out of our hands, and and it allows ah you know this constant extractivism of you know both like you know material wealth and creative wealth, creative resources, memory, knowledge, all of those things.
00:19:27
Speaker
It's all stolen from us and from you know the living ecosystems of the planet constantly ah and from the future and from the past so that it can be controlled by a governmental machine. And you know that's the kind of machine that can work in a range of ways, but it cannot work outside of that range. It never has worked outside of that range. So it can never, by definition, it can never be an instrument of of liberation. So that's that's why it's important to have that distinction about you know what the left actually is. Most people who populate the left though are well-meaning. Most people who populate the left care about things like you know racism and transphobia and sexism and and borders and and stuff like that.
00:20:06
Speaker
So it makes a lot of sense to communicate with them, but to kind of block the efforts of of the institutions that regiment the left and the leaders of the left to to expose and block their efforts to take away our power, to redirect our movements in self-defeating directions. And that's something that, and and unfortunately, um the kind of idea of like anti-fascist left unity played a ah small but significant role in this. Like how how much power we lost, you know, say between 2017 when like we blocked shut down all the airports in the country as a movement to like block the Trump so-called Muslim ban through direct action when, you know, the Democrats and all the NGOs couldn't do anything about it to like after 2020, how quickly
00:20:55
Speaker
this amazing, um you know the but latest iteration in these growing uprisings against white supremacy and against police killings ah you know that that spread, you know well, that it was you know already spreading across the country and across the world and and really had a huge blow up again, a huge showing in 2020.
00:21:14
Speaker
along with the really, really important mutual aid efforts in the first year of the pandemic, how quickly that kind of fizzled and left people exhausted without without a kind of radical framework of like imagining next steps, what directions to take that in, because you know people had had sort of been you know like people were exhausted and also so certain pacification processes that were happening kind of without critical attention.
00:21:40
Speaker
Yeah. um Prince, I'm wondering if you wanted to jump in on this question too of the ah distinction between the left and anarchism in general and how you see that playing out or relevant, maybe even in some of the anti-repression work that you're doing.
00:21:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's a really fascinating question and a space to kind of think about, especially post this 2024 election, because I think that's where a lot of my thoughts around this question came to, because I was thinking of, I don't know, it know also kind of relates to the last question around like, traditional or historical forms of fascism versus what we're seeing arise in the US right now with Trump, because I kind of think of them combined in a sense of like,
00:22:22
Speaker
I've had so many conversations with other black folks since the election results, where either some folks are angry that more people didn't vote for the candidate that represented the lesser evil to them, aka Harris, versus other people that are kind of like, oh well, another Trump administration won't be that bad because there were other minority groups that kind of got put on the chopping block and black people got a break. like this is These are things that I've heard from black folks in a variety of degrees. And when I hear these sentiments, I almost think about like what is it about Trumpism that is becoming even more increasingly
00:23:02
Speaker
either attractive to people or what is it about it that allows people to kind of be complicit or to or to allow it to exist. and and i And I think in terms of like the last question how it connects to this, I think there's a lot of like class consciousness and economic reasons that I think the US s is kind of like folks in the US have to wade through and kind of reorient themselves around because even earlier I was researching like Trump's cabinet as far as like some of the numbers add up to it's like they have a combined worth of over 340 billion dollars and so when I when I think about like this desire for wealth and what that means about inclusion in the empire and how like for black people specifically there are these interesting questions of like
00:23:46
Speaker
Is this the hellscape that everyone is imagining or is it just another thing that we have to survive? And then I think to the question of like the left versus anarchists, I just keep thinking about locally here in Columbus where ah like there were a bunch of the US encampment protests earlier this year. I remember there were some leftists that were organizing towards that and they kept saying like, oh, we have to make sure the optics make sense. Like we have to make sure the optics can land and media and like blah, blah, blah.
00:24:16
Speaker
And I think about how, in my mind, a part of leftism is agreeing to the politics of optics, so agreeing to the relationships that activists, movements, organizations have with the mainstream media in order to gain kind of mainstream appeal and what you sacrifice in terms

Decolonization: A Key Anarchist Principle

00:24:34
Speaker
of like,
00:24:35
Speaker
oppositional tactics, fighting the cops, fighting the state, building a praxis around that, not snitching on people. And so I view that as like an area of concern and kind of like i guess separation that I feel in like a lot of larger leftist spaces. Because if folks are like really indebted to like the optics of something, I'm almost wondering, like where's the meat?
00:24:57
Speaker
What about this goes beyond performance? And then I think like a real distinction for me is like a dedication to decolonization because especially in that space of that movement this year, like I was organizing with Palestinians and Palestinian Americans, but where the tactics began to sway was I don't know, I really struggled with how some parts of the local movement were just trying to like survive and have some kind of public facing kind of sentiment as opposed to what is the opportunity in this moment to kind of express a decolonial logic, to find a decolonial tactic, to articulate how folks here and folks in Palestine and Gaza are fighting colonization and how that should be central and how, especially for me as a black anarchist,
00:25:46
Speaker
I kind of demand a decolonial logic because I can see how there are black folks in the US who like align with the state or they align with the logic of carcerality or they view it as like a way for us to get to a better level or a better place in the hierarchy. And and so I think That's another distinction like between left and anarchism it's i think it's like i question whether or not people want a place in the hierarchy or if they want to be critical of the hierarchy and dismantle it and then i also think another big thing is is like looking forward at at like.
00:26:19
Speaker
the next four years or beyond if you believe Trump is or his administration is going to allow another election. but But I think about how moving forward, we have to look at whether or not our modes of resistance are following like these logics of reform. So maybe changing a policy that reduces some of the state's power, but it doesn't really challenge the logic of the state whatsoever versus something that's more abolitionist, which is How can we defund? How can we close down jails? How can we reduce the the level of like private carcerality that is like a part of like the border and prisons and jails? like What are the ways that we can reduce the capacity of the system that we're living under? But I think the biggest thing for me personally is probably where is our commitment to decolonization because I think
00:27:06
Speaker
in a lot of ways that to me, like it's coupled with capitalism and white hegemony, but it's it's almost like, how do we go past that towards like how have we all participating and participated in the project of of of the American project of colonization or settler colonization? um So I think it's all of those things for me, or at least that's what I've been looking at.
00:27:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's a lot. It's it's sort of this almost this weird catch 22, right of like participating in this structure in order to demolish it. And I think that sort of leads into this next question, right, of regardless of if we call Trump a fascist or not, right? There's clearly a push by Trump and those in his orbit, even even those that are falling in and out of favor in Trump world, like Bill Barr, for example. There's this push to amass power in the executive branch and push back against so-called checks and balances insofar as they actually exist right now, right?
00:28:08
Speaker
Peter, let's start with you. What do you see Trump doing big picture wise as president? How do you think he's going to use his power? And and Prince, I'd like to hear your your answer to this too. And of course, this is leading into like, how how do we push back? Which I'm hoping we can talk more about subsequently.
00:28:28
Speaker
Yeah, and instead of getting into like more specific policy predictions, because I yeah i you know just just don't know and I prefer to to try to have kind of like ah focus on things that allow us to like respond with versatility and to build resilience in a range of outcomes, I think it can be important to distinguish between kind of two different parts of of the Trump phenomenon, which you know is also like a you know political phenomenon that's spreading in a lot of other countries, like you know like with Bolsonaro and Brazil and you know a whole bunch of you know sort of populist, like proudly corrupt, right-wing, we're going to call them charismatic because of you know how it grows there, but like to to you know enough of the of the electorate charismatic politicians like in Europe as well.

The Shock and Danger of Trump's Politics

00:29:18
Speaker
So I think it's it's important to move past the parts that are shock value, which are, and and it's not that those aren't dangerous, but but I think we can distinguish between like, you know, what's dangerous for us and what's dangerous for, you know, the more traditional governmental system of our enemies in which, you know, they were polite with one another as they were discussing, you know, genocide and, you know, welfare and surveillance and policing and all of that.
00:29:46
Speaker
Um, so, you know, like, okay, so, you know, these, these, these kind of newer right-wing politicians are proudly impolite. They're proudly inappropriate and not politically correct and all those things.
00:29:58
Speaker
That's more of a concern for people who care about maintaining democratic government, which is a colonial system. And and I yeah really appreciate Prince, ah you centering the question of of colonialism, you know, as like an ongoing foundation of like, that you that's, you know, that's the reason that these structures are global because of a violent process of invasion, conquest and and colonization, which is ongoing and has to be ongoing because it never like, once it starts, it can't end until it's, you know, destroyed.
00:30:28
Speaker
So another part that's kind of dangerous about like the more shocking aspect of it is, I mean, you know, like here in Ohio, like Jesus, the the Republican campaign was based almost entirely on encouraging transphobia and encouraging xenophobia. Very true. Criminalizing. and Go ahead. ah Just saying very, very true. Like how many YouTube did I get about that? And it was fucking maddening. Yeah.
00:30:53
Speaker
Yeah, it was it was horrific. It's just like incredibly like criminalizing and demonizing like in in the literal sense of both of those words, ah trans people, especially trans women and and migrants. And that's actually dangerous you know to things that are important, you know not talking about due process and you know the you know House of Representatives or whatever, but that's like important and threatening to life because like that rather translates into deadly attacks. And it translates into like dehumanizing processes in which the government can find complicity yeah you know among you know the you know some of those of us who are who are who are ruled, who are subject to to state authority. um So that's actually dangerous. On the other side of it, looking at the actual policy, I'm not sure how much of a departure we're seeing from you know other
00:31:45
Speaker
other presidential administrations, like in terms of police killings, in terms of you know institutionalized murder on the border. um It doesn't really change much, or you know sometimes it gets worse under Democratic candidates. you know If you look at you know like all of the millions of people in Southeast Asia killed by Kennedy and Johnson and Nixon,
00:32:08
Speaker
you know that's It's comparable to the amount of killings that the US is supporting or you know directly carrying out nowadays. and like you know Those different politicians, they were you know all you know polite and like you know avoided you know doing the things that were politically incorrect in the moment to a certain extent. The only one of them who got any kind of consequences was you know Nixon resigning for like you know tampering with the electoral process.
00:32:32
Speaker
So yeah, so there are differences here, but I think that the most important things that we need to be you know really responding to, pivoting towards, and and preparing to resist are major questions of collective survival on a planetary scale ah because of Really, it's it's one problem, but it has a lot of different facets, and all of these facets need to be addressed. they need you know Some of us need to have projects that focus on one facet or another, but we're shooting ourselves in the in the foot if we allow these to be viewed as separate problems. So the borders are inseparable from the ecological crisis, is inseparable from ah urban planning and industrialism, is inseparable from you know
00:33:17
Speaker
Bullshit green rhetoric about green growth and green capitalism and technological solutions is inseparable from billionaires like Elon Musk and Peter Thale and the new tech economy is inseparable from you know the right wing push for more fossil fuels because actually you know this huge growth in expansion of AI, which is also related to surveillance, ah requires you know more green energy and more fossil fuel energy. and in fact More investment in green energy causes more production of fossil fuel energy. and Speaking of AI surveillance, I haven't checked the news in a couple hours. Hopefully there hasn't been any bad news, but um you know sending sending out a prayer and some good magic for um you know the the person who just took care of one of these you know horrible healthcare multi-millionaire CEOs as an act of self-defense because
00:34:09
Speaker
you know The health insurance industry kills people and it makes money off of of denying the you know like the the resources and the technologies that we as a society create to deal with health problems. The health insurance industry like only makes its money by denying us those resources. And so that was someone who you know was making tens of millions of dollars every year.
00:34:29
Speaker
by killing people. So I was actually ah you know so undergoing dental surgery and I was joking with a you know student dentist the other day, just as normal student dentist. And we were kind of joking about, like you know well, you know at least they got one of them. That's amazing. Yeah. I'm seeing some incredible memes coming out about that right now. Prince, did you want to weigh in on that on that question?
00:34:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah i mean I think some of the things that I've especially been kind of orienting my brain around and trying to like research and study and understand more about, especially um after spending the past month at the US Mexican border. I mean i mean i think naturally, um immigration and border policies and Border Patrol and ice like just materially thinking about all of the ways that folks along the border and other places where there are large migrant populations how like looking at like private infrastructure around the border and detention and immigration and how
00:35:30
Speaker
private facilities are a big part of the US Mexican border already and thinking about how this might expand in and other parts of the US. I think about the fact that the Trump administration is thinking about doubling the number of immigration and customs enforcement detention beds. I was reading that right now they allocate around 41,000 and they're probably going to look to increase that. I also think about just like how states like Texas have offered land in various capacities for mass deportation facilities. And um and I was recently listening to a podcast, i think I think it was Movement Memos, but they had a really good episode about how folks in the immigration and deportation space are thinking about
00:36:11
Speaker
like organizing around Trump and what kind of things folks will be have to be looking out for. but but i But I think even that as an issue in terms of like abolition and carcerality and how 2020 was such a major flashpoint for a lot of different reasons and how a lot of the mainstream Can I guess attention around abolition is shifted and how this new Trump administration I guess will represent another kind of challenge or opportunity for folks to kind of draw these connections between the border between ah police and prison systems between just like the different ways that carcerality can show up.
00:36:45
Speaker
um and And then I just think about like anti-media sentiments, like how the media landscape will change. Like right now, the the Press Act is kind of being pushed through and that's something that's a really popular bill that's being presented to protect press freedoms and and and it would limit law enforcement surveillance of journalists and stop people from being able to sue a certain entity and then demand certain notes from a journalist and like thinking of how sources can be protected. And so I think there are a lot of avenues of potential consciousness raising. And and and I also am of the mindset like I think the first days and weeks and like month or two will kind of let us know how quickly out the gates the Trump administration will kind of be
00:37:32
Speaker
running. But I also think about um just like as a gay guy that's never wanted to be married so far, but I i think about like how the Supreme Court and its shifting tone on right to privacy, how that's going to change reproductive rights even more drastically, how that's going to shift this whole movement around parents' rights and and and and private choice for schools and and even, like to me, gay marriage. It's not like I want to be a part of this fucking major institution, but I think about the material reality of all of these social wins that the Democratic Party or the liberals or the progressives could kind of say like, look, our country's getting better. um A lot of those things are going to be challenged and peeled back. and i And I think about the relationship between leftists and progressives and centrists and anarchists and how are we thinking about the narrative of of of change or resistance that's going to have inevitably come out of some of these more um legal or Supreme Court oriented challenges to but like people's like civil and human rights.
00:38:31
Speaker
um So I kind of think about all of those arenas and how they might connect to like the work that people can do locally. But on honor as as as a gay man, I'm kind of like, I'm prepared for hate crimes to be on the rise and what you know protect myself and other people. It's like, how are we having those conversations?

Resistance to Deportations: Historical Context

00:38:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a really important point around like, what are the what are these repeal of all of these sort of liberal social reform, like wins over the course of the last, you know, I don't know, decades, what's that going to instigate in in the population. And I think This, again, y'all are really good at just like leading into the questions that I wanted to already ask, but Peter, I wanted to kind of but come back to some of the the books that you've recently published, right, around thinking about the importance of historical memory and intergenerational continuity in sustaining long-term movements.
00:39:29
Speaker
both as a way of maintaining and building off of past efforts, but also as a way of avoiding and repeating past mistakes. And I'm wondering if we can we can apply some of this to our current context, right? There's been, and you guys have both already mentioned this, but talk of mass deportations and it reminds folks of the Muslim ban, which you already brought up.
00:39:52
Speaker
Peter in 2017, when thousands of people ended up engaging in direct action to shut down airports where deportations were taking place. And a lot of people have pointed out that the state just doesn't have the infrastructure to carry out you know the the level of mass roundups that Trump is is calling for. Yet we know there's going to be a bunch of attacks, as you just outlined, Prince. And so I'm wondering, like,
00:40:20
Speaker
let's talk a little bit more about these forms of resistance. You nodded at some of them that ah is that Kelly Hayes and movement memos was maybe was talking about like what is resistance actually going to look like or might it look like and how do we avoid past mistakes? How do we build off of past successes? And similarly, I think some some of what you're just talking about Prince reminded me of like an argument that I was hearing a lot in conversations around the election was that You know, basically shit is going to hit the fan and then everyone's going to wake up and, and people are going to be in the streets more and they're going to be participating more. And I wonder what you all think about, about that, that argument, like how much, how real does that feel to you? Does does it feel like there's a potential for like real revolutionary buildup here or are people just going to be playing defense? And yeah, what does that look like?
00:41:16
Speaker
oh such a good question. Oh, Lord. I mean, I have so many answers that I could give. I don't know. I mean, I think it's interesting that we're getting another, I don't even want to say the word opportunity, but um another opportunity to kind of look at what a Trump administration could mean. Like, I mean, I think there's a lot of room to analyze what direct policies or ideologies or ideas will he just trying to continue from his last time in office and and and what will be different this time around. I mean, i mean i I think a lot of the fear or worry that I have is centered around, like I remember when Trump won the last time, there were a lot of folks that I knew that considered themselves like leftist or whatever on some level. And there was this initial moment of like paralysis or like, this is so overwhelming, I can't really think about
00:42:08
Speaker
what we need to do or how things can change. And and I guess a part of the reason that I theorized that Trump would win again is that I just think America is really good at repeating itself. And I wonder what echoes of that same paralysis will occur again, because I do think this year in particular has burned out a lot of people. People have engaged in all sorts of movements that have faced like countless forms of repression, like the legal battles that have come up, the time that folks have spent in and out of jail and how I fear that there is a level of burnout that's happening that is going to be one of the initial hurdles for people to kind of work through. But I do think one of the challenges of like what we're going to be facing is like how do we turn a very real reactionary empathy on the part of like the mainstream or the centrists or the leftists into work that can like help people kind of realize the core evils of the system instead of organizing towards
00:43:06
Speaker
a better next four years, the time around, how can we organize these movements and spaces in the the in the inevitable reactions to kind of think about a deeper logic or or theory of ungovernability or of resistance? and i And I feel like that's the kind of the shift that I'm really looking for, like how can I be in movements where I'm being asked to be in solidarity with other people or other people are being in solidarity with me?
00:43:29
Speaker
And maybe their ideology gives them a different kind of buy into the state or what the state's capacity is if there's a better version. But what are the what are the things that I can integrate into my organizing or the ways that I challenge people or the ways that I talk about my points of unity where it does come back to that kind of decolonial logic.
00:43:49
Speaker
and and i And I wonder what that looks like on a local level and that to me kind of leads to like I think these formations of mutual aid and anti-fascism that will naturally arise need to not only serve the function of like giving people resources or are offering like I know space for anti-fascism, but like it it being a ah longer form alternative, it being like ah an another way of living alongside the system that we have. I mean i think of like Martin Sostre's notion of pre-figurative politics, but those are some of my initial thoughts, but that was a that was a tough question. I don't know. That's great. Peter, did you have thoughts there?
00:44:32
Speaker
Yeah, I ah really appreciate what what Prince said, and I agree how much of an initial hurdle kind of our our collective exhaustion and and you know grief is is going to constitute.

Creating Revolutionary Conditions

00:44:46
Speaker
And so I think we need to be caring with with one another and with ourselves, not in like the kind of like you know individualistic, self-care,
00:44:54
Speaker
like kind of way of like where it's all kind of compartmentalized into individuals, but like, you know, like having like a kind of expansive and solidaristic empathy and then not cheating on ourselves like machines. I guess maybe four points that I'll try to like give really like as quick as I can.
00:45:13
Speaker
I think it helps to recognize that I think for most people, many or most of our actions don't flow from our reasons, but rather will often invent reasons that justify the the actions that you know our context or our convenience kind of leads us to take.
00:45:31
Speaker
So like, you know, what does that mean? Like, for example, you know, if you, if you give people a poll in a con, you know, in any normal day between like you vote for a Democrat vote for a Republican support, you know, total revolution and total change, like, you know, revolution vote is, you know, probably not even going to get 1% because it's just, you know, no one feels that it's on the table. But then like these same, same exact people put them in the context of, uh, June 2020 when police stations around the country are getting burned down and that's what's meant by black lives matter. That's what's meant by, you know, police abolition and abolition of the prison system. That movement that was actively taking over streets, fighting with cops, trashing banks and burning down police stations pulled higher, like got like
00:46:23
Speaker
a higher support, you know, percentage in, you know, in massive polling than either Biden or Trump, right? So when we make something possible, we also make it more attractive. And we can see the same thing in insurrections in the last couple of decades around the world, that movements that are very minoritarian movements that don't seem to have a lot of support, when they have more strength, they get more support. It doesn't often work the other way around. All right. I mean, like they can't wait around for the support to like, you know, build strength.
00:46:53
Speaker
Another thing is that these kind of operasings, these rebellions, they don't, they do happen magically. Like there's definitely a lot of magic there, but magic does not mean out of thin air.
00:47:04
Speaker
you know like They don't just you know come out of nothing. The anti-police rebellions that have been growing for the last couple of decades came in large part out of decisions that were made amongst groups of friends, amongst affinity groups, in in different circles that you know coincidentally were happening around the same time in different cities around the country.
00:47:28
Speaker
among like you know relatively small groups of people deciding not to let like a single other police murderer, like not one more police murderer can go by you know in in our city or in our neighborhood without some kind of real response. And you know that kind of real response would be like, you know whatever folks have the strength to put together.
00:47:48
Speaker
whether that's like, you know, if it's, you know, if they can only have like, you know, if there's only like a dozen people or two other people that they trust at the very least, like smashed out windows at like some banks and police stations. If it's a hundred people, it means like, you know, taking over street and fighting with the cops. If it's a thousand people, it means, you know, trying to do the same to the precinct. If it's 10,000 people, if it's a hundred thousand people, it means taking over the city and burning down every police station in the in the city.
00:48:14
Speaker
And like that decision started from like small groups. It wasn't people just like waiting around. It was people saying like we can't work. You know, we can't control the masses and we don't aim to, but we aim to create new tools and new possibilities of response for ourselves. And we're we're going to try to do it in a, in a strategic way so that it's inviting to other people. And so if other people want to use this tool, if other people want to do this alongside us, they are more than welcome and we'll do our best to to keep one another safe. And like, you know, it's like that can't be done with the geometric expectation that, you know,
00:48:48
Speaker
First time, it'll be 10 people. The next time, it'll be 100 people. like It will grow exponentially. like There's no linear growth in in revolutionary struggles. like there's There's ebbs and flows. There's moments in which we need to put down stronger roots. And there's moments in which we get to send out blossoms of fire into the world. ah There's moments in which we need to heal. There's moments in which we need to learn and remember.
00:49:10
Speaker
And also different people are going to be in different moments of the same thing. And when we're doing it well, that comes together as an ecosystem where my vital activity supports your vital activity, supports their vital activity, supports her vital activity, and we make each other stronger. And in the places where we don't disagree, we just accept that there's going to be conflict and difference or sometimes some distance and that's okay.
00:49:32
Speaker
As long as we're able to distinguish between what poisons the ecosystem, aka political parties, big NGOs, um authoritarian tendencies and movements, you know, reformism that involves selling people out, things like that. We got to distinguish the things that kind of poison the soil for everyone from the things that are, you know,
00:49:52
Speaker
not our preferred strategy, things that we might have even strong disagreements with, but we can accept like, you know okay, therere you know there's like some legitimacy, there there's some validity there, those people should you know be able to exercise that that that method of struggle and and you know maybe we'll all learn something from it. So I don't even remember if that was 0.2 or 0.3, but you know we definitely need to so like you know focus on like you know building up our infrastructure where we can, but also remembering that like you know if we have a social center, if we have a ah like a resource distribution network following like a model of solidarity and mutual aid, the most important thing is not the building. The most important thing is not the physical project.
00:50:33
Speaker
The most important things are the experiences that we take from that and the relationships that we build up during that. Because those those are the strong, like if they're healthy, they're the most versatile, they're the most able to adapt to to pick up and put down roots and in a new in a new place if we have to to survive repression. So many movements have like like squatters movements, for example, that have you know liberated buildings from the regime of private property, like hundreds of buildings, for thousands of buildings for Social centers for housing for clinics for show spaces and art spaces and you name it have often mistaken like that physical wealth that physical victory for the the most important thing and so then they've made Self-defeating compromises to protect the the physical wealth so legalization of the movement or you know, it could be like the change of laws to to to we think that that's gonna like preserve some kind of a victory that we've won in our struggles. But, you know, hopefully we can see with like, you know, with dobs, like the, the, you know, loss of, of guaranteed abortion rights and, you know, the fact that like legislation, which was originally intended to placate anti-racist movements and ensure that, you know, um, racist discrimination in the workplace wasn't legal is now used to like protect, you know, white people supposedly, you know, who are being discriminated against. Like it makes it illegal to have anti-racist hiring practices.
00:51:57
Speaker
We need to remember that any kind of victory that is encoded in law is is out of our hands. That is not something that we have power over. We have power over our own activity, our relationships, our strategies, how we choose to respond, and we'll only be somewhat safer if they're afraid of us and will only be like fully safe and able to to kind of pivot towards like you know the the the huge problems ah if you know we've destroyed the state and capitalism. So the final thing I guess I want to say is um this might not help for other people. This might be actually really weird for other people.
00:52:36
Speaker
I think it's really important to find some strength and some solace, acknowledging that the apocalypse has already begun and that mass death, mass extinction, it's already

Ecological Crisis and Survival Strategies

00:52:48
Speaker
here. Some you know some indigenous comrades like have shared with me the perspective and and you know it's a fairly common sentiment like you know saying like, you know for us, the apocalypse began 500 years ago, kind of reacting like a kind of like you know, reacting with frustration about like a kind of more like, you know, global north or middle class or like white perspective, of like, you know, oh, like, you know, is, is, you know, the world gonna end, you know, is there going to be like, you know, big old apocalypse and all that and like, you know, as well, yes, it's been happening for a while now. it's It's spreading. But so anyways, like an awareness of
00:53:25
Speaker
So it's let's just look at the ecological crisis, just one small aspect of it. It's too late to stop global warming at 1.5 degrees Celsius. And because of a variety of tipping points, the likely change is ah the the almost the high probability change is over three degrees Celsius of warming, between three and five degrees Celsius of warming, and which is absolutely fucking catastrophic. That triggers multiple tipping points. it's you know It means the chain the the rapid and catastrophic change of nearly every ecosystem on the planet. One of the largest mass extinction events in the history of the planet will go from tens of millions of people dying of human people
00:54:05
Speaker
tens of millions of humans dying every year as a result of of this kind of ongoing catastrophe, two hundreds of millions dying every year. This has already started. This is accelerating. We're in it. It doesn't look like a Hollywood movie. It's not like you know someone flicks the switch and all of a sudden everyone's killing each other for food. like Actually, you see more instances of mutual aid breaking out because you know, our neighbors and strangers and like other people and people does not include cops, people does not include politicians, people does not include millionaires, they're humans but they're not people. um Real people are like the ones who will save us, you know, in the next hurricane, in the next wildfire, you know, if if we're in one of these territories that's experiencing mass starvation.
00:54:50
Speaker
I think we need to find some kind of stability in in that whirlwind. I think we need to recognize like it is too late to stop certain things. so like it i mean It honestly helps talking with leftists. like We can just kind of look at them like they're you know they're they really, really behind the times. and Like you know the the things that they want to save are already dead. They just haven't realized it yet ah Industrial agriculture is already a failed system. It can't feed the global population anymore So we need as a matter of survival to take over land to start healing the land healing the soil to destroy colonial modes of agriculture ah to do our best to support indigenous struggles gaining their land back and also
00:55:36
Speaker
being able to reapply their locally developed technologies for growing food, for feeding feeding themselves, feeding one another and and healing the ecosystems and you know those of us who are not indigenous um support that and and you know adapt it and adapt to our the land that we're living on the land that's hosting us and and help heal that land as as quickly as possible, along with you know all the other things that need to go with it. like it's yeah like The millions of death, ah it's already happening, and you know the state and capitalism are living on borrowed time.
00:56:11
Speaker
things look a lot better the sooner that we can abolish the state and abolish the capitalism and abolish all of the institutions that go along with it. So that are on and so we want to have these like fucking stupid cops and white supremacists and millionaires to deal with anymore. We can prioritize our collective survival and healing. Beautiful.
00:56:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think um a lot of what you're you're talking about, especially this this question of like urgency. Yeah, sort of there's a lot of framing of the ecological crisis as something that is coming, something that is we're doomed to experience as though it's not already here, and that has a way of not only sort of centering the global north in that process, but also basically cutting people off from their own agency and their own ability to act. And this is something that I think a lot of Indigenous land defenders talk about is thinking of our relationship to this on a much longer time scale helps us avoid falling into a lot of false solutions and this sort of fake sense of urgency that is
00:57:19
Speaker
a major motivator of a lot of the kind of green capitalist solutions that we hear about and and a major motivator of like putting us in different categories and different single issue campaigns that ultimately fracture our movement. So yeah, I think that's a really good point and I want to be kind of mindful of time here. Prince, I'm curious since you've done some work in like supporting people with legal struggles who are engaging in direct action. And you talked about the Boeing case earlier. Maybe you could talk a little bit about like how you see people pushing back on the kind of weaponization of old laws that we can anticipate from Trump that you've already outlined some of those.
00:58:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah no I think that's a really good question. i mean A lot of it to me comes down to both the area of opposing repression where we're dealing with like the legalistic aspects of it, so building out legal defense networks, finding reliable lawyers and attorneys that are willing to like kind of follow movement strategies in terms of like dealing with like the aftermath of direct actions or people being targeted. Even with the the Boeing 5 case that happened like here in Ohio, like that was in Heath, Ohio, and that was a protest that occurred in a
00:58:43
Speaker
part of the state where it's like a lot of people work at some of those weapons manufacturers or have ties to those industries. And so on a sociopolitical level, there are a lot of like obstacles in terms of like strategizing around what are the judges going to think in terms of this case? What is the prosecutor thinking? How are these local kind of, I don't know, parts of the legal system in this particular place in Ohio affecting like how we organize and try to oppose the repression happening to these folks. but But I mean, I think a lot of it for me comes down to like that that above ground front facing legal defense work, and then also kind of maybe to our points about like going beyond like the logic of reform or or working towards a kind of new normal. Because that's what I kept kind of thinking about throughout this whole conversation around how
00:59:36
Speaker
when I was watching the election and the different things with Kamala and her different events, like a lot of her rhetoric was like, we are never going back. We're never going back. And I'm thinking, we're already fucking here. like What the fuck? You want a black person to sell me imperialism? And so and so I think ah to tber Peter's point, it's going to be so necessary that we organize, not around getting a better administration in or having like a better kind of mayor or candidate and city council, but it's it's kind of like to that long game of like, what is the decolonial logic behind the things that we're doing? And I think in terms of legal defense work, it's going to need to be eventually like, what do we do when we want to have direct actions or
01:00:22
Speaker
revolutionary acts of resistance where you don't want someone to be caught up in being entangled in the carceral system. How are you going to house someone? What are the safe house networks? And if we're asking those questions in terms of legal repression and old laws coming back and folks being targeted, those same questions can apply to the anti deportation work and mutual aid work that's going to be involved in opposing ICE. And so I think It's important to be reactive to the policies and things that are going to be brought forward or brought back, but it's also important to view that resistance in terms of like a longer struggle that inevitably wants to disentangle people altogether.
01:01:02
Speaker
from having to engage with the state or or carcerality or detention or or prisons but I think a lot of it to me comes down to like that there's a lot of material drain that comes with like I guess above ground mainstream anti-repression work and and I've been thinking towards like how can the folks that I know build like those more underground structures that help people avoid even getting caught in the first place? I don't know. So I think there's a lot of, like I guess, responses I have, but it but it does come back to this resistance from like the mainstream or the maybe the mainstream left where it's like, we need to just return to like the normal that we had before. like We need to go back to our post-racial America. and And I think the challenge is is like getting people to realize that's a past that doesn't even exist for some people anymore, and it never has.

Educating for Resistance: Is it Necessary?

01:01:54
Speaker
Yeah, it brings up this interesting question for me that I kind of wonder what you all what what you all think about this. like Is it worth trying to, like if if we're seeing ourselves moving in a direction where there's going to have to be a building up of underground capacity at the same time as maybe we're we're seeing people continue, especially people who haven't been super politically active over the course of the last four years, like maybe finding their footing in more above ground, like public facing actions.
01:02:27
Speaker
Is it worth trying to do a lot of like the sort of educational work or the communications work of reaching people. in that group to I guess normalize some of the tactics that we can expect to be happening underground. Does that make sense? Like like basically getting people to realize that like property damage is great. Property damage can be it can be effective. Like this nonviolent versus violent binary is harmful. like Is that conversation worth trying to have with a like progressive liberal public or not?
01:03:06
Speaker
I think the public as the public is is kind of an abstract entity, which is and sort of produced by by the media, whatever the media of a society happened to be. So it's it's easier to manipulate. you know It's kind of a product rather than you know just you know the grouping of people. I think that makes a lot of sense to educate and to communicate. The better connected we are, the more entangled we are with other people, the harder it will be for the state to separate us out and to repress us. um Because repression repression on a strategic level is, among other things, an act of enclosure.
01:03:41
Speaker
And so if there's no easy way for them to build a wall or all around us, it's harder for us to be repressed. Whereas many movements that have kind of fetishized clandestineity in a not very strategic way have actually kind of enclosed themselves. There are certainly many underground skills and resources that that we need to survive, but ah it needs to, the technique can never, should never outweigh the the kind of Strategic ah analysis and and strategy shouldn't outweigh a sense of like where the world is, where we are, and and what we need. so um yeah like what Where we have you know relationships, whether it's co-workers, neighbors, or things like that, like it absolutely makes sense to to to communicate, to try to convince people.
01:04:31
Speaker
and also recognizing that action often communicates and educates more than words. like People have an easier time empathizing with and supporting or or participating in the destruction of ah you know the kinds of property that that is a threat to our health, you know whether it's like shutting down ah a gas pipeline or shutting down a a weapons factory.
01:04:56
Speaker
shutting down all of the the vehicles in a police parking lot, ah you know things that are dangerous to us, things that are bad for life. People have a better time of understanding how that's like a useful and a necessary thing to do, and supporting it in some way, or maybe even doing it themselves, if it's happening, and especially if it's happening in a way that if it's happening in ah in a better way.
01:05:17
Speaker
Like, for example, if what you're doing in in that moment to support the struggle and to be a part of the struggle is like bringing your three-year-old to a you know big protest march so they can also be a part of the movement and like grow up in the struggle. And then someone who you can't tell how like you know green and afraid they are because they're they're masked up, smashes the window or you know right next to to your three-year-old.
01:05:43
Speaker
that's you know That's not a great way of doing that. and and like you know Often like when people who have taken on that role of kind of you know showing up as like the fighters, when they act like that, it's often either because like they're they're inexperienced and have not found a way to like be honest about their fears or to connect with people who have like you know who are more calm in those situations because they've done it more times.
01:06:05
Speaker
or you know because they're they're not understanding themselves as a part of an ecosystem. They're not understanding that like they need to be there to help protect the three-year-old and the parent and you know the old person and like you know everyone else like you know that we all need to show up for one another. And then that you know reinforces this whole completely unhelpful and and not very accurate nonviolence, violence dichotomy that you named. Thanks.
01:06:28
Speaker
Prince, did you want to weigh in on that? And then I have one more question. Yeah. I mean, this is such a good question that I've been thinking about so much. I mean, I literally did an interview with a former Black Panther Party member like a few weeks ago. And I was like, what do you think basically about this question? Like what, how do you work in movements where people might try to sell you out to the state and like, what do you do or what's your advice? And she was just like,
01:06:51
Speaker
um I don't know, it's case by case. And so I think on one level, my mind kind of goes there. But but I do think the conflict I feel in the question is, yeah, like to to Peter's point, not not wanting anarchist ideology or more antagonistic tactics to be seen as like siloed or insular or apart.
01:07:10
Speaker
of a particular vanguard um that like maybe pushes out this idea that they can lead and kind of lead the way for folks versus or like if the masses can kind of apply this kind of vanguard logic to the more kind of like I guess militant or antagonistic forms of resistance. But I do think it feels like it's it's a time and a place kind of thing. Like I do think it's important for folks to be able to organize with each other in terms of a diversity of tactics and for there to be kind of like a baseline respect of like some of those like core values like with some of the recent but ah humanitarian aid work I was doing at the border like there were different groups that had different approaches there were some that were more harm reduction oriented there were some that were more religious other folks that were kind of in between but
01:07:58
Speaker
I saw those groups, they were able to be in solidarity with each other because they agreed upon at least trying to remedy the harm that the state operates as just on a bare bones functional level in terms of immigration and border enforcement. like It's not there to help people, it's there to push people into corridors of the desert where they're more likely to die or like have their aid slashed. and and But I do think they're if we're thinking of like like trying to change something is like a path. I think there is there are points in the path where our ideologies or our tactics or our worldviews diverge. And I feel like confronting that point is kind of where I'm kind of working through in most of my political life and work. Because even in this conversation, I've kept thinking like,
01:08:44
Speaker
how do i talk to other black people about class consciousness if they've just bought into like i need to get mine and help my own and how that is like toxic and not good to me and some people that might think that might sell out their neighbor or might i don't know like do do whatever and so so i think it's.
01:09:03
Speaker
maybe for me about being practiced in conversations around class consciousness and really demanding or challenging people to be more in solidarity with other folks that have a different class or even like level of documentation or or whatever it may be and being really clear about the ways that like I guess me and other folks of color can also do the work of the colonizer and and and recognizing those moments and trying to intervene and be really Direct and and then I think it's about like movements doing that necessary work of I don't know like being in solidarity or having a diversity of tactics but also knowing when to kind of scale back and have the resources to protect the more militant aspects of the movement work so I really feel like it's a case by case thing that I'm literally
01:09:52
Speaker
discovering, but I think it's going to be important in terms of like arguing people against, like we're not returning back to normal. like Normal never really existed. It has never existed for so many people on this land for so long. and so it's kind of like i think almost like Instead of arguing about tactics or how we change things, it's almost like arguing towards a shared vision of what is

Community Organization Against State Power

01:10:15
Speaker
actually happening. and it and i and I feel like that's the work I'm trying to get to and work through, I don't know, day by day.
01:10:22
Speaker
Yeah, totally. And it it leads into my my last question for y'all is I think there's this call right now in the run up to Trump's inauguration for people to be holding big public events and mass assemblies.
01:10:37
Speaker
and really like starting to get to know each other and pull people in. What do you all think people should be doing right now to prepare for what's gonna happen? And what kinds of, I think more importantly, what kinds of questions should people be asking each other? And yeah, what are some, i know I think we've been talking about this throughout this interview, but what are some important lessons from distant and recent past that might be helpful for folks to keep in mind as they begin to think about resistance in this new context?
01:11:08
Speaker
What do we have? What do we need? What do we think we might be able to get away with? What are the risks that we're each facing and how can we support one another understanding that those risks are different person to person and and the needs? How can we include more people in this conversation and who? And the answers are going to be completely different from one territory to the next. Great.
01:11:38
Speaker
Thanks. I guess I really think about like, I don't know, i've I've been thinking like very bird's eye and all these massive things and almost kind of psyching myself out and I feel like certain conversations I've had with folks in the past few weeks have kind of helped center me like back a little bit but but I think One thing that it comes down to for me is like materially, if you are a part of a community, if you live in a city or a town, who are the decision makers, the stakeholders? What are the opportunities to kind of observe and understand what kind of things these people have their pulse on and what kind of legislation can they be presenting? Are there going to be
01:12:16
Speaker
new ICE facilities that could be presented in your city? Are there going to be changes to the way the education system works? Changes to the curriculum? How can we materially kind of observe and note and understand and document the processes that the state is using to disenfranchise us? And how can we build out processes of like that being shared community work, whether it's like You have folks in your anti-fascist organization that are like showing up to city council meetings on a bi-weekly basis, taking notes on what kind of policies or bills they're presenting, what kind of funding changes are happening in terms of police departments. And and and some of that for me is materially like
01:12:56
Speaker
I do think there's this dangerous aspect of the pendulum swinging back and forth between Democrats and Republicans where if it's a more democratic candidate, so many aspects of the left kind of feel like, oh, like now's the time where we just like kind of demand reform and like kind of edge things towards it getting a little better. and i think we have to like really view the state as being antagonistic and encouraging like our modes of organizing to kind of take that seriously. And so I think like documentation, mining, like what like local politicians and and private corporations are doing, and then saying, what kind of community do we want to have and what kind of institutions do we want to have or don't want to have in our communities?
01:13:38
Speaker
And so that that's one area of it. and And then I just think beyond that, it's just really starting with the basics, which for me has come back to community, holding space for people, showing up in a both a socially caring way, but a politically caring way, figuring out the questions I need to ask myself as like a queer black person. like What do I feel like I need to feel safe and how can I talk to other folks that I know so we can kind of be on the same page in terms of that? And I think if we can start building out these kind of processes of care, these processes of documenting and observing what the state is doing, then we can begin to kind of establish what the playing field is that we're working on.
01:14:19
Speaker
And what are the ways that we want to change these material conditions? If if your local schools and and and curriculums are being peeled back and erasing entire aspects of history, what are the modes of childcare that we can build out of these mutual aid systems that are happening? If the cops are coming into your neighborhood and fucking people up or militias are coming through and going to your state house, what are the groups of people in your community that are willing to be a part of a hotline that can be alerted and they get total location that they need to go to and what you might have to be ready for when you show up there?
01:14:49
Speaker
and so And so I think it's about building out these like very material kind of neighborhood watches, mutual aid systems, legal defense networks, and building up enough, I guess, base power so that these infrastructures and and systems and modes of organizing can be malleable and change. And those are some of the places my mind kind of naturally goes. That's great. Thank you.
01:15:15
Speaker
Yeah, finally. I mean, is there any, I really appreciate this conversation and thanks to both of you for sharing. Is there any sort of final points that you all want to make or maybe places that people can find your work that you want to plug before we end here? Yeah. First, just that I really appreciated being a part of this conversation with both of you and yeah, the conversation never ends. The people who take part in it, you know, we come and go. Yeah. For folks who want to find some more of my work for free, I have a newsletter on, you know, Substack, whatever, just my name, petergelderless.substack, I don't know, whatever, it's there. And then the anarchist library is a great resource. Theanarchistlibrary.org is just a great resource for literally thousands of anarchist texts for free by a whole bunch of people. And then also I'm in the middle of releasing a three-part video series with the great folks at submedia. So for folks who
01:16:11
Speaker
who kind of like you know short videos more. The first one is out and and two more are on the way. What's that called? I can't remember in the name of it. But yeah, ah something like Revolution or Death.
01:16:25
Speaker
i I guess I'll just say that i I hope that folks listening kind of center around the fact that like there's a lot to be worried about, but this is also simultaneously a continuation of systems that folks have studied and bear to witness to and resisted for centuries. And so I think like grounding ourselves in that history is really important. like even in preparation for this interview, like I was researching like anti-racist skinhead movements that were happening in Minnesota and like the ties for that to Jamaica and Ska and some of that shit I didn't know as deeply as I should have, even though my family's Jamaican. And so I think there are opportunities for folks to tap into their own individual cultural collective histories that I think is really, really important. And um if folks want to like find me or any of my stuff out there, I do a lot of videos online.
01:17:16
Speaker
about anti-capitalism, black anarchism on YouTube. Just find my name, Prince Shakur. I also do a podcast called The Dugout where me and my co-host Jordan talk about media, news, politics, theory, a bunch of different things. And that's like a really deep project of of of love for me. But yeah, folks could find me on either of those places or just online. Yeah, thank you for having me. Thank you for having us.
01:17:44
Speaker
Yeah, thank you both so much for for joining us and we'll link to all of your links in the show notes as well.
01:17:56
Speaker
Thanks for listening to today's episode of The Beautiful Idea. News and analysis from the front lines of anarchists and autonomous struggles everywhere. Catch you next time.