Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Rattling the Cage of Repression with Eric King and Josh Davidson
0 Plays2 seconds ago
On this episode of The Beautiful Idea, we speak with former political prisoner Eric King and Josh Davidson from the Certain Days political prisoner calendar project. Eric and Josh discuss their recent round of discussions with Firestorm Books around their recent collection, Rattling the Cages, featuring former political prisoners and abolitionist organizers. These discussions have also been recently formatted into a new zine series, found here.
During our discussion we cover the shifting terrain of anti-repression and prison support organizing, how things swill change under Trump, and the need for building a broad abolitionist movement that can win campaigns and shift public perception.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to The Beautiful Idea and Contributors
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello. You're listening to The Beautiful Idea, a podcast from a collective of several anarchist and autonomous media producers scattered around the world. We're bringing you interviews and stories from the front lines of autonomous social movements and struggles, as well as original commentary and analysis. Follow us on Mastodon and at the beautiful idea.show. Thanks for listening.
Challenges in Abolitionist Movements
00:00:46
Speaker
Today we're joined with Eric King, a former political prisoner and current abolitionist organizer, and Josh Davidson, who is also involved in the Certain Days political prisoner calendar project. We speak about their ongoing work with Radley & the Cages, which is hosting discussions on organizing against repression and supporting prisoners on both sides of the prison bars. We also speak about the challenges presented in abolitionist movements in the coming terrain under Trump. Let's get into it.
00:01:15
Speaker
My name is Eric King, and I am the co-editor of the oral history anthology, Rattling the Cages. I am an ex-prisoner who did 10 years inside for an act of solidarity with the community of fergu Ferguson, Missouri, after the cold-blooded murder of 18-year-old Michael Brown by a police officer who was never charged. I was released from the federal supermax on December 12th of last year, and I'm a first time long time happy to be here. Hey, I'm Josh Davidson. He, him pronouns. I'm a member of the Certain Days Calendar Collective, and also a co-editor with Eric of Rattling the Cages, an oral history project with political prisoners. And I work in communications at the Zen Education Project, as well as being a member of the Children's Art Project with political prisoner Oso Blanco.
00:02:14
Speaker
Happy to be here. Awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time. We're going to have a broad discussion today about a lot of different things, but first I want to talk about some stuff that you all are working on. ah Let's talk to you first, Josh. Let's talk about the Certain Days calendar. It comes out every year. People should pick one up if they haven't already. Tell us a little bit about the calendar this year.
00:02:35
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. Thank you. So it's been out for 25 years now, the Certain Days Calendar, and it's an educational project and also a fundraiser that raises money for those political prisoners who are currently serving time in prison. This year, you can get a calendar at burningbooks dot.com in the US.
00:02:51
Speaker
or leftwingbooks.net and if you're in Canada, and you can always go to certaindays.org to learn more about the calendar. For the first time in a long time, we've just reprinted the calendar because we came so close to selling out, which is great news for those inside. That means we're raising a lot of money and also getting the calendar into hand the you know people's hands that haven't had it previously. ah There's 12 essays and 12 pieces of beautiful artwork, most by prisoners or by their supporters.
00:03:20
Speaker
So you should definitely check it out. It's amazing to have it on your wall every day and be reminded of this radical history and the movements that we're a part of.
The Certain Days Calendar and Fundraising
00:03:28
Speaker
that ah You said it raises money. Does that go to the war chest or to different places?
00:03:33
Speaker
Every year for the last 25 years we've given to different different groups and I don't think that the Anarchist Black Cross has been a beneficiary. So previously we've given to like frontline groups and defenders in Canada and then Standing Rock and in other places fighting pipelines.
00:03:52
Speaker
we've given to defense committees trying to get people out, like the Africa, the move Africa family in Pennsylvania, or Matulu Shakur, Sundiata Kohli, and all of the New York political prisoners and and many more. Yeah, that's so cool that it almost sold out. So people should get a copy now if they can before it actually really is.
00:04:11
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
Rattling the Cages Project and Forums
00:04:12
Speaker
Yeah, and let's talk now. Tell us a little bit about the Rattling the Cages project that you have going on because the book has come out. You've done a lot of speaking events, but you've also been doing this series of forums online through Firestorm Books in Asheville and other places. Talk a little bit about that because there's just so much content there and so many conversations you all have had.
00:04:35
Speaker
Let's hear about him what's been happening with that. So firstly, like I hope people in the free world understand like how important and certain days is that that was started by by prisoners by our elders who were doing countless decades inside and never thought they would get out. And so that The fact that the this project has continued as an inside outside project and it benefits so many of us is just like really astounding. So big respect to everyone involved in that, especially Sarah, obviously, and Josh. So the right of the cages has been really, really fun. i I think Josh reached out to our dear friend Liberty at Firestorm about like doing a one off thing or maybe two
00:05:16
Speaker
Herman and I was so nervous. I was so nervous because those are people I've looked up to, I've read about, I've, I don't want to say idolized, but like they set the tone for the radical movement for a long time about, about what it means to be salt. And so those people were inspirations to me. And Susan, I did all that time in goddamn Lexington, which no one can understand. Maybe some like supermax prisoners can, but that's just an unfathomable situation she was in.
00:05:46
Speaker
So we got to talk to them and like Josh, Josh does the majority of the organizing and like he can touch on that. And then I do all the glamour work. I get to sit in front of the camera and just talk to people I love and try to be silly or engage with them. But Liberty, Liberty does this amazing thing where they give us a platform once, sometimes twice a month to remind people that our elders are not only still here, our peers are still here, but there are lessons to be learned. It's not just enough to say, like oh, this happened. And we're just like, great. ah Hearing their words, hearing what they experienced, and being able to keep that forever in posterity, I think that's priceless. And I think it will go down. like When people look back, I think The Riding the Cages book and and also this audio series will be seen as a priceless tool in remembering the political prisoner movement.
00:06:41
Speaker
Josh, what do you think? Yeah, thanks Eric. You really summed it up really well, I think. And you're right, this last year has been a roller coaster. Yeah, like a real roller coaster since the book came out, which was also, you know, coincided with your release from prison. And yeah, this Firestorm project has been really fascinating and really rewarding for, I think, everyone involved.
00:07:01
Speaker
And it was initially just going to be a one-off book talk, you know, with Eric and I talking about rattling the cages. But we wanted to take that opportunity and that platform to try to, you know, instead of just two white guys talking about the book, we could bring forth these political prisoners who lived it and who contributed to the book and have and who have so much history, but also so much wisdom, you know, to share. So, yeah, that first one went so well. And we actually, Eric and I and Sarah Faulkner with the Certain Days Calendar who wrote the introduction to rattling the cages.
00:07:31
Speaker
just finished the 10th call, the 10th panel talk with Firestorm yesterday. And they've all been amazing. We've got a few more scheduled or in the works. They are very difficult to organize. As you can imagine, just trying to get a wide variety of radicals to to agree on anything, let alone a date and time can be difficult, but it's also been very rewarding. And just recently we've been working with some fellow organizers here in Oregon to turn all of these talks into zines and they're all
Thematic Forums and Prisoner Experiences
00:08:01
Speaker
available on ah on archright archives dot.org. ah We'll share the link and you can download them, you can print them, send them into people in prison and hopefully you know these these talks in the book itself are not just ways to learn this history but also like provide lessons to organizers now and people facing prison now
00:08:20
Speaker
and There's so many, you know, since the uprising and in Palestine and the current, you know, turn in politics here in the US. So I think we're going to see more of that. So hopefully these lessons are helpful to people. Something that I really enjoyed about it that like we did not, I don't think we foresaw it at first was the themes. Like each talk has themes and we're able to bring people together that might not be as super like spoken about nowadays in the movement.
00:08:48
Speaker
like being able to have people like Ray Luke come on and talk about like that specific like cause that he was a part of. We did like the the revolutionary women where we got to have like our elders, but also Nicole. And that was their first time getting to talk about like what their prison experience was actually like. So we do like their problems too, like trying to, we want to have as a broad a representation as possible We want every group of person or prisoner to be able to like be represented and like have their story told. And sometimes we struggle getting people i to come on that. I feel their stories would be infinitely positive, like infinitely helpful, but sometimes people just don't want to
00:09:35
Speaker
Don't want to do it, don't have the time to do it, don't have the connections to do it. So that's something that I hope that we continue to work through in season two, which is starting next month. And it's going to be about the loved ones of prisoners. It's going to be about like partners and kids because like they experienced prison on a, on a different, more interpersonal level than like just normal supporter might. So hearing their stories and like learning from what they went through, I think is one not done very often.
00:10:02
Speaker
But also, it's we need to know that like we need this information. Yeah, we're going to obviously link in our show notes, the link to Firestorm. But you can see all of these forums on the Firestorm books, ah YouTube page. There's just some amazing stuff. I mean, I'm just going to read some of these titles.
00:10:21
Speaker
You have stuff on becoming politicized in prison, revolutionary women behind bars. ah You just did a talk with Jeremy and ah Jason Hammond. There's discussions on the role of anti-fascist in prison and navigating that, people that have gotten out and continuing their activism.
00:10:40
Speaker
Black August the list goes on. There's really just a lot of stuff here I hope at some point somebody can take these audio Files and just turn this into a podcast too because this is just some amazing stuff I mean firestorm in general is doing some really cool stuff with these forms online I hope people really understand what a resource they're creating here. There's not enough good words for firestorm. I yeah They're just too great Yeah, and I would encourage people even ah beyond the prisoner stuff, there's just lots of different authors and historians and people just are doing really cool projects, organizers that are on here. Check out the channel if you haven't got a chance to, even if you normally don't watch stuff on YouTube, it is really worth it to check out all the stuff they have. On this, is there anything coming up that people should be watching? or I would really encourage people to
00:11:30
Speaker
Like if you didn't see them live to check out the YouTubes, because there are there are people and experiences that you may have missed out on. You may not have learned about people like Jake. We people like Harold and the Black August one. People like the criticized prisoners we spoke to a couple of months ago or maybe even earlier this month. Time flies. But like learning about a broad spectrum of experiences that way we can have a better grasp ah and understanding of what people are going through.
00:11:58
Speaker
And that only helps us like develop empathy, develop strategy, develop tactics. like When we take this information and use it, it is it can only push us forward. So I just really encourage people to watch those videos in and to share them. And to like remember, like I only get paid if they get watched a certain amount of time. So show up. Also, also I just want to say, like Eric and I have been kind of, I think, surprised by the amount of people like groups that are reading Rattling the Cages and reaching out about it and want to meet and talk about it. and he Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And now that these Firestorm talks are available as zines, I think that these zines could be read as book clubs as groups and talked about in that fashion. And I think that that could be really important.
Eric King's Book on ADX and Prison Realities
00:12:45
Speaker
Even Ray Luke, one of the contributors of the main said that he was part of a Rattling the Cages book club.
00:12:52
Speaker
in Maine, which is really great. And I think that the more of those we have, the more people reading the book and and spreading the word and connecting with people in prison and offering support in whatever way is definitely going to be beneficial for our movement. Well, let's let's tease that out a little bit more. I mean, the the book has been out for a while. You've been doing these talks. I mean, one of the cool things you mentioned is that this is engaging with people from a lot of different movements and backgrounds. What's that been like? And just, you said like a lot of people are engaging with this work. Just talk a little bit about that. Sort of defeat the feedback that you've gotten and also just people, you know, the the wide variety of folks. Yeah, yeah, it's been really wild, Eric. And I've been asked to speak at different places around the country. We've been invited to Seattle to give a few different talks now. In Denver, we went out for an NLG conference and did a talk where Eric and I met for the first time.
00:13:44
Speaker
which is really great. That was a little less than a year ago. <unk> done yeah We've done talks on the East Coast, the West Coast, and a whole bunch of of online virtual talks as well. And the feedback has been really great. People find it you know fascinating whether they knew anything about prison or or they've been involved in the movement for decades. So that's been really interesting.
00:14:05
Speaker
and learning about the different groups, about people reading it and reaching out to people and and asking for names specifically, you know, names and campaigns of people that need help and and being able to raise people up in that way has been really great and rewarding as well. either I've been pleasantly surprised by the amount of people that have not only read the book but reached out to talk to us about it and given us opportunities to talk about it because the information never gets old. It's not like It's all of a sudden we have everything we need. So like that's good. We don't need to talk about it anymore. This is a fluid thing like support and prison and existing in capitalism. like That's a fluid thing that changes and evolves. And so the more people from different backgrounds that reach out, like it helps us learn too. like I've had people reach out to me and talk about like their time in juvies.
00:14:57
Speaker
their time like in in children prisons. I've had people reach out and talk about the sexual abuse they face and how like they had never heard their stories told in a way that felt authentic to them. And so being able to read these stories, it made them feel seen. And so that sort of stuff that's really impacted me.
00:15:16
Speaker
Besides like just getting a chance to connect with the older revolutionaries, I've been really moved by the amount of people who seem to give a shit about those inside and seem to really want to fuck up prisons. So that's been that's been really beautiful. Well, Eric, you know, I want to also ask you about this new project that you're working on, or you're both working on this new book. Tell us a little bit about that teases. Oh, yeah.
00:15:39
Speaker
i don't I don't write anything without Josh being involved. I i don't even write like my signature on the back of the check without without getting him to edit it first. So I was fortunate enough to be able to get in touch with Joey from PM Press. Bonzo connected me and Joey together. And I wanted to talk about the federal superbacks, the ADX, because that's a very infamous prison, but no one seems to know shit about it. And when you check online, there's articles.
00:16:09
Speaker
There's like token articles, but there are no books written about the most famous prison in the country. And that was alarming to me and definitely none written from our perspective, um a from an ex-prisoner or leftist prisoner perspective. And like that confused me. And it started because I was getting letters while in this prison, most restricted prison in the country. i And people were asking me to get online, to check out their website. They're asking to mail me clothes and mail me food.
00:16:39
Speaker
and that was so thoughtful and loving, but it also shows like this disconnect between like what information is getting out to people. And so I really thought that if I could let people know not just about my experiences in ADX, because everyone like there's a thousand books like that, but the broader like what the experience is like, what the prison is like, what's it like for jotties? What's it like for black gang members? What's it like for the handicap people? What's it like for people in the H unit and Sam's?
00:17:09
Speaker
um What's it like when you're stepping down? What's it like when you get referred? like A lot of people I know don't even know that there's a referral process that can take months or years. And so it's breaking down all of that. And it starts with my trial, i winning that trial, because that was rare also in our movement. So it goes from winning that trial to the referral, the transfers, and then like it just breaks down that prison like brick by brick so that people know like what's really going on there and like what the day-to-day situation is like. And so Joey's helping put that out. Right now it's called a clean hell. That's what Warden described it as once. It's like a clean hell. And Josh had the amazing idea of including like other voices of ex-prisoners or current prisoners. And so I've been really blessed to be able to reach out to some people who might be able to write like a page or two or a ah couple paragraphs talking about their experience.
00:18:04
Speaker
so that we can have like more voices describing what this shit was like, as opposed to like some white man saying, this is what presents life for everybody. So that was a great idea by Josh. And we're in the editing phases now, or stages. So it's unique. It's a unique perspective that we don't have in writing yet. So I'm very proud of it. I'm very happy. It's a dream come true. i don't I don't have much to add about the book, except that it's amazing to proof and to to edit so far. And I think that it will be extremely helpful, not only for people facing time at the ADX, but also for people trying to support them and trying to close down such a repressive and then horrible place. Has it been okay so far, Josh? Like this shit you've read? Yeah. Yeah. and It's been great. Yeah. And it's been, it's been amazing also to work with you on this side of the bars, as opposed to working on rattling the cages and having to face all the repression that we did face, trying to make that.
00:19:01
Speaker
Real quick, something that I find very interesting is that here soon, the most infamous pretrial prisoner in my lifetime is most likely you're going to get found guilty and go to prison. Talk about Luigi. And he's going to either go to the death penalty or go to ADX, 100%. And when he goes, there will be a spike in interest in that prison again, like when Chappa went um or when Ted died, Kaczynski. So when he goes, people will want that information and Our book will be sitting there just reaping in that PM press money, just bathing in that book money. We're pretty excited about that. Talk a little bit about ADX, because I feel like a lot of people know that that's a prison, but explain why it's such a big deal and what it is. So those who don't know, in the federal prison system, there is only one supermax prison, and like like California state has like five.
00:19:55
Speaker
But in the feds, there's just one central Supermax prison, and they they talk about it as if it's for the worst of the worst. But really, it's for like, if you did the wrong thing to the wrong person sort of thing. But it is a continuation of Alcatraz. And the 30s, 40s, 50s, whatever, we had Alcatraz. That was the Supermax. And then in the 70s, it transitioned to many of our elders were at. 70 odd was there, Bill Dunn, Leonard, ah countless Puerto Rican freedom fighters. and And when shit happened there, when Thomas Silverstein and that other creep killed those two cops on the same day, and they turned it into a nonstop control unit, the BOP wanted to find a prison that you could not escape from, you could not get at the guards in, and you could not have communication in the outside world.
00:20:47
Speaker
And they did that by going into the Rockies in this secluded area in dirtback Florence, Colorado, and they built this isolated prison. And it's where they it's where the Oklahoma City bombers are. One of them is still. Anyone that participated in 9-11 is there. Any of the jihadis from the 80s, 90s, 2000s is either there or was there. Big cartel leaders, that's where they send them. Like Chappo was there.
00:21:15
Speaker
ah leaders of the Colombian cartels are there. But there's also people that resisted inside. There's people that stood up to staff. There's people that rioted because they were done with their conditions. There are people like me that just made the wrong people mad. like They hate the left wing. They hate it. And they don't want us to see us recruit in prison. They don't want to see us have outside support. And I was working on both those levels.
Isolation and Brutality at ADX
00:21:39
Speaker
So they bury you. And it is a 24-hour lockdown prison. You are never out of your cell near another person um without handcuffs on unless you're leaving the prison. you You have two guards on you at all times. You have two doors. You're not going to break out of both of them. You are in a concrete box, not like the metal. You can't bang on the walls. And you are completely at the whim of these people. If you're lucky, you'll get two or three phone calls a month. If you're unlucky, you'll go 15, 20 years without ever having a phone call.
00:22:09
Speaker
And there's people that have done that. I document them in the book as well. Josh will get to those chapters soon. But they can absolutely bury you there. And they do. They do. And as of right now, there's no leftist consciousness about that brutality or about rising up against it. And that's because we're not there. When we and all the leftist radicals were at Marion, there was a campaign to shut down Marion because we had firsthand experience of what was happening there.
00:22:37
Speaker
But over the years, like Ray Luke was there, Tom Manning was there, Oscar was there, Mattu was there, but they've been funneled out. And so no one no one's going to step up and like risk their place in line by speaking up for white gang members who killed people, or cartel leaders with hundreds of bodies under them, or al-Qaeda fighters who participated in bombing. People don't want to speak up for those people, but they're prisoners too. They're humans as well.
00:23:05
Speaker
And if we're going to let the if we're going to be OK with the government doing that to them, we need to be OK with them doing it to us. We can't cry victim when we didn't speak out for the other people. And so that's what I've been trying to do. I've been trying to educate people, and let them know that like you're one bad decision away as an activist from being put in that fucking prison. You're one extreme act of rebellion from them bearing your fucking ass. And all of us have that in us, whether we've acted on it or not, we all have it in us.
00:23:33
Speaker
And it's something we need to be mindful of, that they can do this to us. What you think is the worst thing they can do to you in prison? They can do worse. And I've seen almost all of it. I've experienced almost all of it. And it is is upon me to make sure people understand how bad this federal government can hurt people it doesn't like wall inside while inside the bars. Well, that kind of allows us to segue into the other part of the discussion I wanted to talk to you about.
00:24:01
Speaker
is it How do I put this? like you know We're about to enter into the second Trump presidency. Do you think that you know who's in power, does that make a difference? Does that change things, either in terms of just how the guards act, just the you know the kind of overall tenor of things, and also just in terms of policy? When Trump first came to power, he he named certain prisoners in certain prison groups. He named Antifa. He named MS-13.
00:24:32
Speaker
And that automatically but automatically did that to us. It automatically guards automatically started acting different. And when Trump did that, that's when I started going on mail bans. That's when I lost my phone contacts. That's when I got prosecuted. They have a directive to act more harsh under certain regimes. In the free world, I don't agree with that. In the free world, I see that like even under liberal presidents, like they will smash to the left.
00:25:01
Speaker
Guaranteed. First, it happened under Obama. All this stuff, like it can happen under anyone. But inside, there is a there is a huge difference because there's a level of accountability. And when someone like Trump is in power, these pieces of shit feel entitled to act harsher because their leader is telling them it's OK. They will still do that brutality under left, quote unquote, presidents. But it won't be as open. It won't be as s flamboyant. It won't be as flagrant.
00:25:31
Speaker
And that is what I worry about for people coming into prison, that they might not be as aware of what they're stepping into in regards to their politics. Because if you're lucky, you'll end up at a low and it won't matter. Like Casey is going to go to a low most likely, it won't matter. But let's say you're one of the George Floyd people who gets sent to USP Victorville or USP Big Sandy. Like those, those dudes are walking into a, a hell and It is bad. It is bad when the people that have complete control over you feel immune to treat you negatively, when they know that they can do whatever they want. And the Supreme Court recently took away the power of vivins. We used to be able to sue the prisons for treating us badly, for violating the law, for breaking the constitution. And the Supreme Court said, well, you can handle it inside prison. They can work out their own system. So now the prison is held accountable only to the prison.
00:26:32
Speaker
So it's scary and you need to be prepared. And we need to know that our enemies do not mind hurting us. They do not mind taking things from us. They do not mind watching us suffer or setting us up to get hurt. They do not care about this stuff. And you need to be prepared for that when you go inside. I was not. Yeah. I mean, I think that also begs the question. You know, we just saw a round of noise demos again, like we have done for a long time here in the US s on New Year's
Mobilization and Activism Strategies
00:27:00
Speaker
Eve. A lot of them focused on the horrific conditions inside, especially the one that happened in New York. I know there's hunger strikes going on at the detention center in Tacoma, Washington right now. There's been ongoing protests there for years. you know What do you all think about organizing against just the conditions inside going forward and what the prospects are for that? What's ah what's on your mind around those issues? I'm gonna have a more aggressive answer. So I'm gonna go first and then Josh can give like more analytics and logic, okay?
00:27:33
Speaker
I wish that we would dedicate as much time to abolishing prison as we did to showing up for Palestine. If we had the same mobilizations and the same amount of tenacity and the same amount of fire and creativity and resources and boycotts, like it could it can change everything. The prison system is a money-driven system. It cannot operate without funds.
00:28:01
Speaker
And if they started losing these contracts, if they started losing the ability to make money off of prisons, you would see a decrease in prisons. That policy would change. And maybe also we would see some inside outside revolutions, some more inside outside activism, some coordinated events to bring attention to the suffering. Because right now we're talking to ourselves. Like the Tacoma people are talking to other abolitionists. The MDC people that are protesting, which I i love, I love all of these.
00:28:31
Speaker
But their audience is both the prisoners, which is great, but then other leftists. So it almost feels performative. One day a year, we're going to go out, we're going to make noise, we're going to hold banners so people know we care. And then we're going to what? A lot of people will write and do projects, which is great, but the majority will. Then what happens? So i I would love to see the resources both mentally and tangibly put towards the prison abolition movement, because it doesn't exist. But right now, it feels like it's just a select handful of groups that give us their all. And then a bunch of others that show up when it's time to do performative stuff. Well, just yeah just to kind of pull pull that thread a little bit. I mean, what do you think
00:29:18
Speaker
What are some campaigns or what would it look like perhaps or if we can think of some examples to mobilize around some of that stuff? Because it sounds like you're saying one of the problems is where it's like kind of like small dedicated groups that are just kind of grinding it out on certain issues. We kind of need things that speak to a wider audience that more people can mobilize around in a really big way and try to like like it know pick out pick off pieces of this thing so it gets smaller. What what would be some examples of that?
00:29:48
Speaker
So first, i I'm going to go with BDS. Boycott, divest, rob a rabble. All the companies that make money off of prisons, shame them, boycott them. Make it a national campaign. Go out of your way to do this. like Put in that work like we did for Palestine. And then shut down the resources. Put in direct action to stop these companies from going into prison. We know where their trucks are. We know where their resources are. We also know where the prison loading dock is. Find ways. Barricade that shit like we did the roads.
00:30:19
Speaker
barricaded, protest outside, protest outside the prisons, do lands in prison parking lots, do mass marches onto prisons, and do it more than once. Do it a hundred times. But the boycotting hitting them in the wallet is a huge, huge thing that we have the power to do if we change the narrative on prisons. If we change the narrative that it's a bunch of lowlife criminals too, it's a bunch of underserved, underprivileged people who did what they did to survive capitalism.
00:30:48
Speaker
then like we can maybe try to build mass support. But we don't do that. We do not build up these campaigns that people can get behind. Find out what banks the prison uses. Boycott those banks. Shame those banks into funding these torture institutions. There's new prisons getting built every day. Someone is financing those. A concrete company is hiring people to do that. Shame them. Boycott them. Put them on blast. Disrupt them. How would we treat it if it was a slaughterhouse getting built? We would shut it down. We do direct action.
00:31:18
Speaker
People would be showing up to free those minks and those rabbits. Free these men. Treat them the same way. I'm not saying everyone has to break into prison and put their lives online, but we all have resources and abilities that if we choose to, can be to the benefit of the abolition movement. Whether it's giving voice, whether it's doing action, whether it's being creative, whether it's getting word out, whether it's hacking, whether it's doxing, whether it's anything. We have tools.
00:31:45
Speaker
And we do not use them to to our full capabilities. And if we did, I think we see a huge change. Yeah. I mean, I think some of the stuff you're bringing up a lot of this, we saw at least during its arc, the prison strikes that happened while while you were inside, we saw a lot of this stuff and there was a lot of talk on how people could act and organize. I think to your point though, we need to see broader campaigns around this.
00:32:11
Speaker
And um ah yeah, also approaching this that this is a you know marathon, not a sprint and like trying to pick aspects of this to like things that we can win and fight over and also get more people involved. Because I mean, unfortunately there's a lot of people that are inside, but there's a lot of people that know folks inside that are impacted by this. Family members, friends that we can pull in and and try to organize with.
00:32:35
Speaker
I think I read a guy that said one of every three black men will be involved in the justice system at one point in time in their lives. And I think all of us know at least one black man. So that means people we know, even if you haven't been in prison, people you know and care about have been negatively affected by it. And if that doesn't move you to act, then maybe we need to look about like, at what solidarity actually means, and what empathy actually means. It's hard following. Yeah, I was just gonna say it's hard following you up, Eric.
00:33:01
Speaker
um you go out I'll just say that, like you were saying, I think there's a lot to be learned from the SHAC campaign that fought animal testing and vivisections and things like that by fighting tertiary interests of companies that were involved in such actions and things like that. You know, there's there's lessons to be learned from what they did accomplish and were not able to accomplish there. And in terms of Palestine, I think we need to look at it not as
00:33:32
Speaker
as putting our efforts into abolition work versus putting our time into ah free Palestine. But we need to put our time into making those connections clear. And there's a lot of examples in history of that as well. And we can look to the Irish struggle. We can look to the Palestinian struggle itself. And the the things that they have in common is that their support of prisoners and political prisoners in particular is is central to their movements and central to their daily lives as organizers and as activists and as people fighting fighting for freedom. And we need to keep that in mind and we need to build on that, I think, in order to make people here in the US see
00:34:18
Speaker
the need for abolition and the repression and violence involved in maintaining this carceral system throughout the nation. Yeah, those are all really good points. Yeah, I wanted to turn it out. Just real quick, whether we want to admit it or not, there's still a stigma about prisoners in the American left. We can act like there's not, but there is. Because otherwise, we would not allow human slavery to continue. It is slavery. It is 100%. It's in law as slavery.
00:34:45
Speaker
And that's what it is, and that's what happens. And if we didn't have this stigma towards them that has been internalized by this mass propaganda campaign, by the state, if we didn't have that deep in us in some way, we would not allow this to go on another second. We would not allow humans, our neighbors, to be treated that way, to be raped and stolen from their families and kidnapped and put in these torture camps. We would never allow that. If we saw that happening right now with migrants, we would mobilize so fast, I hope,
00:35:15
Speaker
because we would see it as a brutal act. But we don't do that with prison, always the broader movement doesn't, because there's still that there's still that stigma that maybe they're poor, they're bad, they're criminals, as opposed to people surviving in the system that we have. Yeah, I mean, I think there's also a real aspect of fear. I mean, people fear prison, you know? As they should.
00:35:38
Speaker
Yeah, totally scary place. Totally. Exactly. it ah And I think, um yeah, this is very out of inaction, though. I think Ray Luke said that or David, one of the two, you shouldn't be so afraid that you're not willing to to fight for your ethics. Nothing should ever scare you away from living your living your ethics. If it does, then you need to reevaluate your ethics and see what really does mean something to you. What are you really willing to put your put your body on the line for? But also at the same time prison sucks and repression is real. So Can I juggle this shit? Well, I wanted to turn now and talk a little bit about there. It it feels like there's there's a lot of people that are in the process now of of being sentenced that are going to be in there for a long time, for for several years. You mentioned Casey. There's also Pepe and Crystal that are being sentenced in a few days from when we're recording this.
00:36:31
Speaker
There's somebody right now in Florida that's doing a year for writing graffiti on an anti-choice pregnancy center. There's Malik Muhammad that's inside for several years. There's the George Floyd prisoners. There's people that, yeah, the list goes on. Josh, let's start with you. What do what do you think of in terms of just like the challenges going forward in support right now?
00:36:57
Speaker
um it doesn't you know it doesn't look bright moving forward, but at the same time, we've got a lot of history that we can use to learn from in terms of people facing long sentences ahead. We saw that kind of at the at the end of the 60s, the long 60s when most Panthers and and White Radicals were sentenced to decades and decades, and you know some are still inside today. But I think that in terms of support,
00:37:26
Speaker
There are strong campaigns that seems strong like solidarity campaigns and strong letter writing campaigns that are out there. And it does seem that the the the people facing charges now are able to stay in good communication with their supporters and with their campaigns on the outside. I think maybe Eric might have more to share about that.
00:37:48
Speaker
Let me first say like I've been stunned at the amount of support that I see these like the newer prisoners getting I didn't realize it was like that when I was first locked up there was there was no one until Denver ABC reached out to me and I was months into my in my bid so like to see people getting like massive support early on like at the base of their imprisonment is amazing because that's what you want that's how you can start building these relationships and knowing right at the jump what's happening I think the Florida the Florida one And I'm in touch with all those cats. I think that's the one that's going to be most precedent. And I think it's something to watch out for. Because their crime was speaking out against a horrible thing. i They're accused of spray painting hate centers. So we all we all set up banners or flyers or wheat paste or spray paint. And those time might not be a lot. like One of them got sent us to 30 days. And that sounds like, well, fair enough, 30 days.
00:38:47
Speaker
But it's the after effect where that can hit us to where now you have a hard time finding a house. Now you have a hard time getting a loan. Now you have a hard time getting a job. So they don't need to imprison us for 50 years to steal our futures away. They can do that real fast. And they can pass laws that make it to where felons can't do these things.
Support for Prisoners and Movement Critiques
00:39:07
Speaker
We're not allowed to get such and such. We're not allowed to get assistance. We're not allowed to get loans or whatever. Because these things are still happening socially. They can happen legally too.
00:39:17
Speaker
And so that's where we need to be mindful of what's happening and still supporting people. Even if their sentences are relatively small in comparison, like David Gilbert, we still need to recognize that they're still away from their families. They're still in rough situations and they still need love and support, even if it's short. But that's also the flip side to something I'm really grateful for. Everyone's getting baby sentences and that makes me happy. Casey's going to get five.
00:39:46
Speaker
That's the way it's looking. Pepe is going to get, I think, five also at the max. They've already done a year and a half. Six months, good time. Six months, halfway house. They'll be out in two and a half. I don't think Crystal is going. And so the things we're seeing aren't crippling imprisonments that will steal decades of their lives. So I'm grateful that we have that momentum right now, but that can change also. That can change really fast.
00:40:09
Speaker
And so I think it's really important that we develop real relationships with people, relationships where we can be honest with the prisoner and allow them to be honest with us so that we can develop by real connections and real relationships. I think there has been a pattern in the political prisoner movement of over-exaggerating certain things that are happening to get support because we're desperate to be heard. And then that minimizes when something else actually does happen that's super serious. And it numbs people and normalizes people.
00:40:39
Speaker
to what's happening. So I think we need to be honest about what's going on inside also and understand that that's enough. like That's bad enough for us to need to stand up against it. We need to let people have an honest view of what is happening to our comrades inside. And we need to see that no matter what it is, even the Swedish jail, the Swedish prison is still bad enough to rise up against. And for us to still love and support those people. So there's just a lot, there's a lot of stuff going on with that.
00:41:08
Speaker
I don't even know if I answered your goddamn question. I want to rant. You know, Eric, I wanted to ask you, you know, you've been out now for a year and you've been able to go out to things like running down the walls and different events. Like now that you've kind of seen.
00:41:22
Speaker
active prisoner support stuff from this side. like What are your thoughts? you know what What do you think about that now that you've seen it from like this vantage point? like Do you have any critiques or concerns or thoughts? like What could be better? i mean Obviously, there could be more, you know but i'm I'm just curious to pick your brain about that. This is ah this a very tricky and delicate situation because I don't want to ever appear as if I'm judging when people are giving what they have.
00:41:51
Speaker
I don't want it to seem as if I'm saying like this isn't enough when it's all that they, all that the supporters have to offer. But I think I was in Portland for running on the walls and it was the most beautiful thing. Like I think almost 200 people showed up and we did raffles and um I got to MC and talk to everyone and we raised money and that was great. But out of those 200, how many are going to follow through and keep up that level of support?
00:42:19
Speaker
how many are going to keep doing different fundraisers, keep using their skills to find different ways to raise awareness, different ways to maintain and build support. Because that's where that's where I still see that the movement has lacked its teeth. Ed Meade was right when he said like, good support would be getting me a gun. ah He wasn't bullshitting. The best support you could offer Oso Blanco is a helicopter. Get his ass out. He wants to be free. That's his goal.
00:42:47
Speaker
But we don't, we're not going to do that, sadly. And so the next best thing is mobilizing as much as we can. And because prison support is so thankless a job or an activity, I think people burn out. I think it's really easy to show up for the big events. I think it's really easy to show up when it's someone you know, but it's a lot harder when it's an indigenous dude who's been in for 25 years that you've never heard of. Because it takes time and work and effort to learn about these people and develop different relationships.
00:43:16
Speaker
So I feel as if prison support has lost teeth. I feel as if there are some groups that love, that seriously take this, take this shit serious. I think there are some groups, and I talk to all of them on Instagram. They know who they are. And they take prisoner support as serious as they take any other aspect of the movement. But there's a lot of posturing. There's a lot of theater involved. I think there's too much. I think there's too many people that treat it as a hobby.
00:43:45
Speaker
and not enough that treat it as a freedom struggle, a liberation struggle against people being held in slavery. We don't have John Brown's as much as we should. We have, I don't know, Ernest Hemingway's that will write about it. whoever Whoever the people in Boston were back then, we have a bunch of thoroughs and not enough John Brown. people People like this stuff, but they're not willing to dedicate themselves to it as much as I think. like We need more bill done. We need more ed means.
00:44:12
Speaker
We need more George Jackson brigades, people that were attacking the prison system itself, not just verbally, but tangibly, looking for creative ways to hurt the prison system for hurting its people, our people, all people. And so I've been blown away with the amount of love and support I've seen. Portland fucked me up with ah how great those people were. Northern California did the same at the book fair and then at Oakland at the Tamarack. That showed me how good it can be. Those locations showed me like this is what we can be. But I don't know if that carries everywhere. i don't I don't think it has the legs that I wish it did. Because for everyone, Josh, there's 55, one letter a year, Tommy's. And that one letter a year is nice, but it's not going to set no one free. It's not going to do what it needs to do. Right. And I think part of answering the questions that you're raising is sort of like, how do we build more robust movements that
00:45:07
Speaker
that incorporate prisoner support into everything that we're doing, you know, and you you already kind of brought up some of those examples, but yeah, it's really hard, you know, and also like you're saying, you know, build robust campaigns and struggles to that engage the public and are are working to better conditions for people inside, whether they're political prisoners and, you know, quote unquote or not. Yeah. I mean, these, these are the, these are the big questions, right? You know, just more perspective, I can't name five George Floyd protesters that are inside.
00:45:39
Speaker
I'm an abolitionist movement. I can't name five of them. And if I can't do that, what's the chances my my fucking comrades can? like eight there is a lack of There's so much going on that we don't tie it all together. We don't make it one thing, we make it a thousand small things. And we can only invest so much time in a thousand small things. And that's where I failed. And that's where I think the abolitionist movement as a whole could do better.
00:46:06
Speaker
But on the flip side, I've been blown away with a lot of things I've seen, a lot of love I've seen, a lot of people. It is is a lot better than I thought it was, but it's still not as great as it could be. That's an honest assessment. Josh, what are your thoughts on this? I think, as usual, Eric summed it up pretty well.
Creative Activism and Future Engagements
00:46:24
Speaker
You know, we're doing the work that needs to be done, but but there's obviously more work that needs to be done in that. I think we need more people involved. I think making, like you said, making it a part of our daily lives, making abolition a part of our daily lives in whatever fashion that may look for people.
00:46:42
Speaker
can only be good for our movements and can only grow our movements. I don't know what that necessarily looks like, but I'm sure it comes in many forms. I know working with also Blanco, who Eric mentioned, we use artwork as part of the Children's Art Project to try and like raise awareness. And in doing that, we use artwork by indigenous prisoners and create greeting cards and sell those greeting cards. And then all the proceeds go down to the Zapatistas in Chiapas.
00:47:12
Speaker
And that's just one way that Oso Blanco uses his skills to fight towards the abolitionist future. He also creates music, which is really amazing. He's written books. And this is just one example of one political prisoner that's out there. you know There's dozens and dozens. and And in terms of just general people in prison, there's thousands and thousands of people out there. And I think that what Eric and I have been doing with rattling the cages in terms of a book of oral histories and subsequent like interviews and panel talks and stuff is really important. And it's a unique way of using our abilities and our skills to like to raise the voices of people in prison. But it I think it also opens the door for like other people to do similar things. that be It be great to have like an oral history of trans people in prison.
00:48:06
Speaker
or an oral history of, you know, maybe disabled or otherwise able people in prison or or any number of things. And it doesn't even have to be an oral history. It could be, you know, something like Garrett Felber is doing with the Mississippi Five, where he is working with five women in prison in Mississippi. And he created like oral history, zines of their lives. And they've been in prison for so long and they've, you know, been up against parole and and like been rejected so many times. So it's just small. And I don't want to say small, but it's things like that. Yeah. It's things like that that that can help make people aware.
00:48:43
Speaker
and also just bring more people into the movement. I think right now something that happens like we we will sometimes pontificate and be like oh if I was alive 200 years ago I would have fought the confederates I would have I would have been a part of this to that I think in 300 years people will look back and say like they had all this technology all these resources and they still let prisons exist if they still let this happen They knew it was happening and didn't do anything. I think that will be, I think that is our course. And I'm so grateful that podcasts like this exist, that place like Firestorm exists, that even if you, let's say you want to reach five people, which would be good for this podcast. But like, let's say you only reach five people. You are still putting your skills and talent and time towards liberation, real liberation, raising up any voice you can.
00:49:34
Speaker
And if everyone did that, if everyone gave a little bit of their skills and time, I think we could change the world. And that's what we need. Yeah, one other the thing I'd add is that I think a lot of people right now are looking for something to do and bring people together, you know, activities that are public that engage folks and, you know, doing letter writing nights or Finding prisoners in your area that you want to support I think is one thing that you might consider doing for sure, but also just incorporating that into your ongoing organizing, whether it's mutual aid or part of some wider campaign or something like that. You know, one thing I wanted to ask as we kind of wrap up here, we've been kind of having critical conversations about bigger questions, which is is always hard. And I think that's the important and interesting conversation to have, but
00:50:28
Speaker
What are some inspiring projects that you see right now that you want to shout out? Well, besides getting a certain day's calendar. There's, I love the artwork by Just Eads that Just Eads artists are putting out, and I think that's a unique way of using their skills to fight back. They're doing a ton of really amazing Palestine artwork, I think, supporting those who need it right now, other people facing charges like Casey Goonan. You can find more information about them online.
00:50:59
Speaker
And there will be a lot of other people, I'm sure, facing charges in the coming months and years, as we saw from the last ah you know J-20 that happened when Trump took office eight years ago and it's coming up again soon. So I'm sure we'll see a lot more repression and a lot more people facing charges and and being there for that for them, not you know especially locally if they're in your area, but but with the technology that exists now, you can help out from anywhere in the world. So taking advantage of that, I think, is always important.
00:51:30
Speaker
I've been really happy with seeing radical spaces taking time to get together and talk with each other to formulate ideas. That might be something small, but like I'll see places like D3 in Denver or just sitting in these small spaces and they'll be talking about like, we're having a group discussion about this, like the MACC. We're having this discussion. We're going to watch this movie and then talk about it. I think that's really important because it brings people together and allows you to share ideas in a safe place.
00:51:57
Speaker
where you don't feel as if you'll be abused for for having a picnic or having ideas. I think that's really important. That's really been inspiring to me, even though it seems small. I was really impressed. Bonzo did a fundraiser the other day and it was a pie eating contest. That is so creative a way to raise money and raise awareness of prisoners. It's not just the basic like, let's sit in a circle and eat hummus and drink kombucha and do whatever it was. Let's find fun, engaging ways to build up support while doing tangible work. And so I salute that. I salute Bonzo. I salute the other artists out there that are using their skills to to generate awareness. That's huge for me. I would like to shout out Brandon Rosas for hiring, hiring felons, hiring political prisoners and allowing them to go into court to fight trial.
00:52:48
Speaker
places that hire prisoners, places that give opportunities to prisoners, those are rare. And I honor those places. And not just because they hired me, like Zee and Erica, they would have done it for someone else if it wasn't me. So I respect them. I just, there are great people out there giving their time and effort. I can't name every project, but there's people in Eugene, there's people in Texas, there's people in New York, in Buffalo, Maine, obviously in Cali, there's people everywhere that are saying we care. And those are the things that I see online that stun me.
00:53:19
Speaker
Because I didn't see that shit for a long time. And now that I see it, I'm like, God damn, like there's is real love out there. And it's it's really impressive. I was given a critique by the prisoner movement. That doesn't mean I don't love it to death. and That doesn't mean I'm not blown away by it. People are doing amazing things. And any amount of love is more than zero amount of love. So those are the things that have been inspiring me on a daily basis. People doing what they can when they can. Totally. Is that pedantic? No, no, that's great. That's that's amazing. Yeah.
00:53:47
Speaker
we're in a moment where I think people are trying to get the band back together, so to speak, with Trump coming in and, you know, trying to engage new folks and hopefully there's going to be more people getting involved or becoming involved again. And like you said, there's a lot of work to be done. So now's the time to have those discussions about how we can be better organizers and connect with ah folks in our communities. Well, yeah,
Lessons from Past Radicals and Current Support Needs
00:54:10
Speaker
the old radicals used to do, like we read about in their books, like they would sit down and a hash it out.
00:54:15
Speaker
They would formulate plans and take the time. yeah And I think we could learn from that. Is there anything else that y'all want to talk about that we didn't get a chance to cover? I talk about this a lot, but I've got a dear friend inside prison. He's a social prisoner named Randy Platt.
00:54:28
Speaker
and he is at the federal supermax and I swore to him that I would never give up on his freedom and safety. He put his life on the line for me in ways that is hard for people in the free world to understand. Like imagine if someone lived in your bedroom with you and they had a knife and they wanted to kill you at all times. That's what he lives with every day because he stood up for an anti-fascist because he stood up for trans prisoners.
00:54:54
Speaker
So he is constantly in danger. They are constantly trying to set him up at that prison. He's in ADX. He's in the federal supermax. And I would encourage people to write. I would encourage people to maybe call maybe call that prison. Just try to speak to the ward and secretary and just go, like, is this guy safe? Like, is Randy Platt safe? Are you sure? Because people get killed at ADX, too. Like, they set the guard step prisoners up, and some boot-licking prisoner will do the guard's dirty work for some fucking suboxone or an extra bag of coffee.
00:55:23
Speaker
So I would just encourage people to please write and think about Randy Platt. I would encourage people to think about our trans friends and queer friends as Trump comes into power, what it's going to be like safety wise for them, that they're going to be living in a world where hatred of them is normalized and accepted and promoted. And that is for a cis white man. I will never know what that's like, but I i know it's scary. I know it's hard and sad. And so I would encourage people if you've got anyone gay, queer, trans,
00:55:52
Speaker
Non-binary, it doesn't matter. Just show them love and support. Ask what they need. Ask what what will make them feel safer. What can you do to to make their day easier? Even if they're a piece of shit, even if they're not your friend. i We don't want the state to get free a free pass to brutalize people for who they are. So that's what I would say. And thank you for and you for always raising up my voice and other prisoners' voices in these causes. It's not a small thing, which you all do either. So thank you so much.
00:56:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I'll just second what what Eric said and you know write it right to a prisoner, write to smiles if you can, but if not, write to any number of political prisoners that are serving time right now.
00:56:33
Speaker
You can find all about them at the nycabc.net, I believe, or .com, New York City Anarchist Black Cross. They do a ah great updated like form with with all the current political prisoners and how to write them. So just write to someone. It can change your life. It could possibly save their life. So it's definitely worth it. And yeah, thanks so much for having us as always and congrats on the new show.
00:56:57
Speaker
ah The next firestorm event is going to be in early February. I think it's the loved ones of prisoners. Please get on firestorms website or me and Jock like certain days is Instagram. My Instagram like will be promoting it. So please register for that talk. Yeah, for sure. Support your local bookstore.
00:57:19
Speaker
Thanks for listening to today's episode of The Beautiful Idea, news and analysis from the front lines of anarchists and autonomous struggles everywhere. Catch you next time.