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44–Michael Whitmer: Food, Trust, and the Stories We Tell
18 Plays21 days ago
In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, Eric Pratum speaks with Michael Whitmer, Vice President at Look East and a longtime strategist in the food and agriculture space. Michael has spent more than two decades helping food brands and commodity organizations communicate clearly, build credibility, and connect with consumers on what matters most.
They discuss how food intersects with identity, why consumer trust in institutions has eroded, and how organizations can communicate values—not just facts—to earn that trust back. Michael shares lessons from his work with the Illinois Soybean Association, The Center for Food Integrity, and other organizations shaping the future of food production and sustainability.
Topics Explored:
- Building Consumer Trust in the Food System
- Why Facts Alone Aren’t Enough: The Power of Shared Values in Communication
- Lessons from Agricultural Commodity Marketing and Checkoff Programs
- Transparency, Traceability, and the Role of Narrative in Food Branding
- How Food Connects to Identity, Emotion, and Belief
- Trust, Misinformation, and the Importance of Dialogue
- The Future of Food Integrity and Responsible Communication
Links:
- Connect with Michael on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelawhitmer/
- Michael’s company Look East: https://lookeast.com
- The Center for Food Integrity: https://foodintegrity.org
- Related episode with lan Fine on the GROW: https://unfoldingthought.com/28-alan-fine-exploring-the-inner-game-to-grow/
For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com
Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com
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Transcript
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Unfolding Thought Podcast. My name is Eric Pradham. Today I'm speaking with Michael Whitmer, Vice President at an organization called Look East.
00:00:13
Speaker
Michael's work focuses on building trust between food producers, brands, and the people they serve through storytelling, marketing, and relationship building across the food supply chain.
00:00:26
Speaker
In our conversation, we explore what it takes to build trust in the food system, how consumer expectations are evolving, and why transparency, values, and narrative matter so much in shaping public perception.
00:00:42
Speaker
Michael discusses his experience working with national checkoff brands, meat brands, sustainability brands, and more. We also get into how food touches identity, belief, and culture, and why the stories we tell around it matter more than ever.
00:00:59
Speaker
If you care about food, business, or trust, I think you'll find something valuable in this episode. And now, I bring you Michael Whitmer. Michael, thank you for joining me. Would you mind telling me about yourself?
00:01:13
Speaker
Eric, it's good to be here. Yeah, um I have the short version and I have the long version. um So the the short one is i work in marketing communications and the journey to get here ah has been an interesting one. But I really enjoy working in the ah food and food supply chain um as a as a career.
00:01:33
Speaker
That's been really good. The long version ah starts with, so um I was, when I was a kid, um i was one of those kids that my parents bought me a pony, um you know?
00:01:45
Speaker
And so, ah but it wasn't like we were a rich family or something. My dad had bought this ah pony for my sister and me and I, ah they surprised us with it, which was really pretty cool.
00:01:58
Speaker
um But I was walking around the pony and the first day that we had it and it kicked me in the face.
00:02:05
Speaker
And my, my mother was like, oh my gosh, get rid of this animal. It's a, it's, you know, it's hurt my baby. I was probably like, like eight or nine years old. and And my dad was like, no, no, no. He needs to learn how to walk around a horse.
00:02:20
Speaker
And, uh, that was a really important kind of lesson of life that I did not want by getting, you know, kicked by a horse, but I did learn it. And, uh, so we had, uh, growing up, we had, um, some horses, but, uh, they were, they were our just for fun. Um, wasn't like we were equestrians or anything like that.
00:02:39
Speaker
Um, but, uh, that was my, my, really my, um, entry point into agriculture. So, uh, was just, was having a pony as a kid. We were city, we lived in the city. We had this pony, um, that we had, you know, that kind of thing.
00:02:54
Speaker
Uh, fast forward in my career and, uh, um, my wife and I moved to St. Louis and I started working or I started, um,
00:03:06
Speaker
at Webster University and getting a degree in advertising and marketing um because I was just fascinated by ah what it takes to communicate ah to people. I thought um that advertising was just a really fascinating um field and ah you know everything that I was seeing around me.
00:03:25
Speaker
um i didn't So from there, I thought for sure we'd eventually move to Chicago and I'd work for a big advertising agency or something like that. But I got a job ah working for an agency in St. Louis that predominantly worked in agriculture and didn't really know a lot about agriculture. But I quickly learned and um it was really amazing to start to understand what it takes to get food to our tables.
00:03:53
Speaker
Um, the, the extent at which that happens and the process is pretty phenomenal. Um, and so being a person who was on, you know, I didn't, I didn't know agriculture as a farming kid. I wasn't a farming kid or anything, but starting to learn these things, I really became so respectful of, uh, what it takes to get food to the table and, and really wanting to see that promoted in the right types of way.
00:04:18
Speaker
um I was doing a ah ah good job, you know, like this was a good place for me to be. um I worked Osborne and Barr for quite a while, worked at ah a couple of other agencies before moving to um an animal health ah company.
00:04:34
Speaker
And I worked in global marketing um for an animal health company. And that was my exposure to working with a variety of different cultures and a variety of different marketing teams in different areas and understanding how, you know, in St. Louis, in our headquarters, we were coming up with all these great strategies and that it was supposed to be applied, you know, somewhere in Thailand or in the UK and it just didn't, it didn't do what it was supposed to do.
00:05:01
Speaker
was a classic example of, um, the, uh, you know, headquarters coming up with an idea and not really understanding how to contextualize that information. Um, but the more I traveled, the more I spent time with teams, the more I got, um, I had some really great bosses who just taught me how to understand and, and, uh, uh, be able to translate a lot of in in my instance, a lot of scientific information into something that was valuable for ah customers of the company.
00:05:33
Speaker
And I really enjoyed that work. and And I did a lot of that work with um ah poultry, with chickens. So I learned a lot about chickens. And ah from there, I went to actually work with the United Soybean Board,
00:05:48
Speaker
back through the agency that I had started with. Um, but, uh, but working for the United soybean board was a group of farmers who've come together to kind of pool their money together to try to promote soybeans.
00:06:00
Speaker
And so, because I understood marketing, because I understood advertising, because I understood chickens who are the biggest eaters of soybeans, um There was a great like opportunity for me to learn or to ah to to um help support the organization.
00:06:16
Speaker
What i learned in that was um a coalition of farmers, a coalition of any kind, trying to make decisions about how to operate the most effectively um was a unique challenge. That's for sure.
00:06:31
Speaker
And um USB is not a government entity, but there are a lot of parallels to kind of government work. um And so a whole new sector to understanding how some of that was, which also led to um understanding a little bit more about the political environment and how much that has an impact on.
00:06:50
Speaker
our everyday life. um And we know that at a big level, but actually legislation that changes um both the way farming practices happen, food labeling happens, the way that, um you know, our food gets to the table is really impacted by lot of information or misinformation that is within legislators or or governing bodies.
00:07:15
Speaker
So how important it is to be able to share valuable information with all kinds of stakeholders, which is what what has led me then to the work that I do at ah Look East, the agency that I'm at now, where we predominantly focus on stakeholder engagement in the food supply chain.
00:07:33
Speaker
Um, and, uh, stakeholders are everybody from, you know, all of us as consumers, um, through all the development of, of the product from, uh, the farmer, uh, to the manufacturing process to the way that that product is put into a box or shipped and how it is put on a shelf and, uh, the impact that that makes to us and the decisions that, um, we have to face every day in feeding our families. Um,
00:07:58
Speaker
So I'm really thrilled to be able to be working and doing this kind of work that I've come to love. Didn't know I was going to be there, but ah all from, you know, the pony ah led me all the way to this place.
00:08:10
Speaker
And I'm happy about that. So that's the long story, Eric. I'm going to ask you about two things. Sorry, I'm going to state one thing and then ask you about another. So for anyone that is not aware of groups like the United Soybean Board and other what they refer to as Chekhovs,
00:08:32
Speaker
You know, if you think about a lot of agricultural commodities, an individual soybean farmer could have 10,000 acres of soybeans one year, could be corn the next year.
00:08:44
Speaker
They may have soybeans on one field and corn on the next field. but But regardless, let's look at just one commodity.
00:08:53
Speaker
When those soybeans are harvested, even if you have 10,000 acres, could have 100,000 acres.
00:09:01
Speaker
The way that supply chains work and the way that marketing and sales work for things like this is that it just would not make sense for an individual farmer to undertake some marketing or sales campaign to get a chicken farmer in Nigeria or a hog farmer in China to purchase my soybeans.
00:09:31
Speaker
you know, the supply chains work in such a way where everybody's soybeans, for the most part, go to one green silo or one shipper or whatever. And I'm, I'm glossing over a lot of details here, but fundamentally it just does not make sense for an individual to market and sell their product.
00:09:49
Speaker
And so These coalitions essentially have formed in different commodities and they more or less do the marketing on behalf of the commodity.
00:10:03
Speaker
Now, there are other businesses that handle the sales because I, as a soybean farmer, will in many cases then sell my soybeans to organizations, I believe like Cargill or something like that, who will then put them into containers and sell containers of soybeans or bushels or pounds of soybean oil or whatever it is to, well, first and foremost, the processors, and that may be a Cargill as well,
00:10:34
Speaker
but then eventually to people that are going to produce the products or use those inputs, such as feeding pigs or producing soy plastics or whatever else. So I state that in large part because I have worked with these organizations as well.
00:10:51
Speaker
But until about six, six and a half years ago, this was completely foreign to me. I never thought about the fact that an individual farmer would not sell to that user of their product. Really, they sell to middlemen, if I can call it that. So that's the first statement, I guess. And then the second is,
00:11:15
Speaker
You and I have talked before about Look East, and I think there's a lot potentially to say about what makes your organization unique. And you hinted at it with a stakeholder engagement.
00:11:27
Speaker
But I want to give you an opportunity to talk about the Center for Food Integrity before We come back around to something that I think was hinted at when you said, you know, that your father said you needed to learn how to act around horses or ponies or whatever it was, how to walk around them safely.
00:11:50
Speaker
And so I'm going to come back to that. But as I understand it, Look East is a partner or manager or has some sort of involvement in the Center for Food Integrity.
00:12:06
Speaker
And that relates to the work that Look East does. So can you tell me about that organization? Sure, i sure can. Yeah. ah The Center for Food Integrity is ah really an opportunity for the entire supply chain to come together around particular issues ah that they're facing from end to end.
00:12:24
Speaker
So from the farmer all the way through processing, all the way to retail, even into um you know into the grocery store or into the quick serve restaurant that you may experience. So we have ah folks who participate at the Center for Food Integrity in this kind of coalition ah to understand the challenges that are happening to the supply chain, to the the totality of the chain. um and really being organized like that, we have the opportunity to talk about issues like
00:12:56
Speaker
um sustainability and its impact on um the whole supply chain. That's scope three emissions. That's everything from how products get, mean, there's a variety of different things there.
00:13:07
Speaker
But then also and the changing perception consumers have about food um and ah what they consider true about food in the food supply chain. So everybody in the supply chain wants to know what consumers are saying and thinking about that, about food um at that general level.
00:13:25
Speaker
And so as a an organization, we do a lot of research um about that. We share that information. um we We share a lot of ah factual and and data information with our members.
00:13:37
Speaker
um and And so on that kind of level, that is, how do we bring everybody together to to help ah take care of some of these ah concerns or issues? That's where we've got this coalition built and and the Center for Food Integrity does that.
00:13:51
Speaker
um The Center for Food Integrity hires um folks like me and others ah as our staff to sort staff for the organization. And so at Look East, that is that's the that I work for.
00:14:03
Speaker
And my client, if you could say it like that, is the Center for Food Integrity. But as a ah look east organization, we're really focused on how does those individual companies bring that information to light for their brands um or for the stakeholders that they're engaged with. So if it is on more of a marketing, ah marketing communications, sales side, it would be something that is like, how are you understanding um what is what consumer behavior is driving decisions and how do you then with um ah shared values communicate to your ah your target audience.
00:14:42
Speaker
There are a variety of other stakeholders who and are involved beyond the ah the consumer. So ah your your employee engagement or, um you know, there are a lot of community engagements that happen. And so we help um different companies manage their reputation at the brand level or at the company level alongside you know the community involvement that they have.
00:15:05
Speaker
And we do that with a lot of strategic initiatives um that you know help us everything from influencer engagement to more like um public relations, media management, that sort of thing.
00:15:17
Speaker
So um that is how ah the Center for Food Integrity helps kind of collectively and how Look East helps on a more individual basis. Is it fair for me to think that the word integrity in the Center for Food Integrity implies not necessarily that you're promoting
00:15:45
Speaker
foods that are quote unquote whole or organic or non-GMO or whatever. Now you may do those things at times, but rather that when the word integrity in the name has more to do with keeping a sense of integrity with the presentation of the food and the products with the public's or the consumer's understanding.
00:16:13
Speaker
So even if an organization was participating with the Center for Food Integrity and there their food is processed in one manner or another or ultra processed for all I know that some of the work that you're doing is aligned with or intended to ensure that there is integrity between the reality of that food production processing supply chain and what is presented to and understood by the consumer.
00:16:50
Speaker
Yes. ah The integrity ah really does lend itself into making sure that there is accurate information available to ah to consumers.
00:17:01
Speaker
What we understand is that as as consumers but and then ah also as those who were being communicated to, that the way that they're that people digest or or receive information first is about how they um feel about it or think about it in and the information that is coming in. So when we're um talking with somebody, we're coming to somebody with a with a shared value that we're ah we agree with together. We're at least starting in a position of understanding that you and I both want to be able to make healthy choices for our families.
00:17:35
Speaker
And then from there, how do we decide what is healthy? and and And so we can continue the conversation from there. If we start the conversation with healthy equals this scientific scientific information that we have, and so then therefore you should eat healthy, consumers, the rest of us, we we we kind of we really disengage from that.
00:17:56
Speaker
So um at the Center for Food Integrity, what we're also helping the industry do is to how do you change the way you talk about what is valuable for consumers?
00:18:06
Speaker
And at the same time, how do we have consumers be able to engage with factual, relevant information that is um to the point you were just saying is accurate in representing ah what it takes for their food to you know, ah to be on the and the grocery store shelves.
00:18:23
Speaker
So um in a time of social media overload, there is a lot of misinformation that comes towards people. um and And being able to just like take that information in and know what to do with it ah is is really challenging. And so ah we really focus on how can we bring ah ah factual, relevant information to consumers um and do it in a way that they're going to be able to understand and and engage with historically. not just science for the sake of it, but really some of the things that are going to help them to make ah good decisions in the future.
00:18:57
Speaker
Thank you. I'm going to state this because I so want to ask you about it, but I also want to get to ah topic mentioned earlier. So I'm just going to state it because maybe it will be a follow-up conversation, but it seems to me like there's something to be explored around the quote or the idea that many people have heard that something like,
00:19:21
Speaker
A lie can make it halfway around the world or whatever before the truth even gets its pants on or shoes on or whatever. And i think there's a lot to be explored as it relates to the work that you're doing.
00:19:34
Speaker
However, I think you can speak a lot to
00:19:41
Speaker
learning from experience and learning from others. And so I want to go back to getting kicked by the pony. And I forget exactly how it was that you put it, but fundamentally your father had said, well, he's got to learn.
00:19:57
Speaker
And the implication being that there's some value in learning and Even I think that there is tie-in potentially to, you were talking about working in the global, what was it, the global food brand, animal health. That's what it was. You were talking about working in animal health and how headquarters would develop something.
00:20:25
Speaker
And they, in one manner of presentation or positioning, they didn't necessarily understand the realities on the ground.
00:20:35
Speaker
And i I'm seeing some parallels here in that In a lot of organizations, we make a decision or we produce something and we are sort of divorced from the consequences.
00:20:51
Speaker
So you may have produced a product or a service and it's intended to be used by that farmer out in the field or on the ground and they deal with the consequences and you don't have the opportunity to learn from them.
00:21:08
Speaker
It's almost like you bought the pony or your father bought the pony. You got kicked in the face, but he never heard that you got kicked in the face or he heard about it and he it just explains it away.
00:21:21
Speaker
And so I bring this up because you and I have talked before and you have a
00:21:29
Speaker
you have a ah nature, i think, about you. You have a ah set of behaviors or traits that are very, you know, sort of mentor-like.
00:21:42
Speaker
and i And I'm lacking for a ah better word, but like you have a i distinct interest in learning from others and learning also ensuring that others get the best exposure that they can to your knowledge and to improve their careers through their bosses or whatever else. So do you think that
00:22:11
Speaker
some of that interest and some of that disposition came through, for example, your father not protecting you and in so you know in a safe space, let's say, right?
00:22:23
Speaker
I don't and don't want to impugn your father without him being here. you know that I'm guessing that you could have really been hurt, but... That was unlikely.
00:22:34
Speaker
And so do you think that your desire to mentor your, the value that you place on finding mentors or teachers or coaches yourself perhaps comes in part from the example that was set by your father?
00:22:52
Speaker
Yeah, i think um and another quote from my father that I hold on to um often is he would say, if you pay attention, you can learn something new every day. And I've held on to that um because i think what's embedded in that is really curiosity.
00:23:11
Speaker
for the life that we live for the environment we are in and around. So um his perspective ah was one that was, but let's try it and see kind of attitude.
00:23:24
Speaker
And, um and that carried over into my own curiosity about things. And um just like wondering about stuff and kind how does that both, how does it work on a, on a really practical level? How does it work on a theoretical level about things?
00:23:40
Speaker
And tinkering, you know, that sort of thing. um And then I think that married up with um being being um kicked by a horse, being kicked by a pony did have it. It was painful. That was a painful experience that I that we either could have.
00:23:58
Speaker
I could have run from or learned from. And um my mother was ready to run from that for sure. but She was like. no, I don't want, I want to protect Michael from this pain.
00:24:12
Speaker
And, um, I like that a lot. I want to be protection from the pain, um, of situations. and ah And, then, and he saw it as a, as a learning opportunity out of a painful experience. So we can have value in even the painful experiences, which I have held on when I have had a lot of painful experiences, as we all do in our life.
00:24:37
Speaker
Um, and those painful experiences are something that I can learn from, or I can run from, you know, freeze flight, whatever that saying is. But, um, and, uh, and so I think that is certainly a mixture of things that have brought me to the place where my curiosity plus a willingness to learn from other people.
00:24:55
Speaker
Um, and I want other people to experience less pain than I did if they can. Um, so sharing, what has happened to me or my experience or what I've learned or picked up from um comes out of me very naturally because I want I, I really want the benefit for somebody else that they don't have to experience this, and you know, whatever kind of pain it is, or to know that you're normal feeling that that hurts.
00:25:25
Speaker
That's normal. And sometimes that's what we need is the encouragement to know that you're, you're on the right track, even if it feels off the track in some way. Um, and that sort of thing. So I think those are the things that kind of bring that together, ah to, print you know, for me as a kind of my natural disposition is to want to be alongside somebody and, uh, um, and help them grow.
00:25:48
Speaker
Do you see, like I referenced you working in animal health and headquarters is divorced a bit or is, is away, separated from,
00:26:03
Speaker
some of the consequences of its decisions. Do you see that there are certain situations or maybe there's a trajectory with business or society generally where we're either protected or divorced from consequences of our actions or from putting up with hard situations in a way that I'm envisioning your headquarters was?
00:26:32
Speaker
I sort of see it, I guess, Eric, in the way that you, that, that sometimes, um, parts of the organization can be, um, myopically focused on one thing, one aspect, maybe a, particular key indicator Profit, of course, would be one of those.
00:26:57
Speaker
um And then neglect to think about all the other things that it takes to make that happen for the long term for, you know, for ah in a sustainable way.
00:27:08
Speaker
You can cut all kinds of costs and and bring profit to the organization. And then eventually that runs out and you have to invest. You have to get back to it. So that's natural part of business.
00:27:20
Speaker
So um I think that there can there can definitely be um the insular kind of view, ah maybe in the C-suite sometimes about what that, you know, what should we be doing ah and that we haven't really considered all of the stakeholders and the impact on the stakeholders overall.
00:27:41
Speaker
um And it's the organizations that have the best kind of feedback loops, the ones that pay attention to that, that understand some of those types of things. But often what happens, I think, is that ah those ah the results or that the the the kind of the disconnect are because of the lagging indicators that that didn't work.
00:27:59
Speaker
Rather than any sort of leading indicators up front that this was going to be the right the right input to be able to have the right kind of output. So um if I'm coming up with a campaign or I'm coming up with a sales strategy devoid of what the rest of the organization is doing, then I might be able to check off on my goal document.
00:28:18
Speaker
I did the plan. check, I fulfilled what I was required to do to get my bonus today, devoid of what it means to the rest of the organization. That is such a short term view of what the impact is that we're supposed to be making and doing.
00:28:35
Speaker
If my view is how does this information and the things that I'm creating affecting my customer, which may be the sales team because it's affecting their customer who is ultimately the the one who's buying it.
00:28:47
Speaker
If I'm thinking about those kinds of things, then I can finish my campaign, but it might look a little different. Maybe not as exciting as I wanted it to be um in you know and in my insular kind of view because it's supposed to benefit the the the audience long term.
00:29:04
Speaker
I think that is, i learned a lot about those kinds of things and um taking feedback in and understanding what something meant in the context, how to have kind of a hypothesis for what you think it may be and testing it with ah groups, different groups of people in order to know that it might work um or not work, or what would the ramifications of that stuff be?
00:29:26
Speaker
So I think that depending on the kind of organization that you're in, the, the, just doing a task and then checking that off and like pushing it onto somebody else is a, is a problem with the mentality of the organization um and the culture that is there rather than what is our, our, our collective purpose that we're trying to achieve together.
00:29:51
Speaker
Do you think it's easier nowadays if I'm in the workplace to make a bad decision and then
00:30:03
Speaker
uncomfortable but not have to deal with learning from that or in society more broadly do you think that it's easier to
00:30:19
Speaker
get in an argument with someone on social media and to just block them or to unfriend someone on Facebook during election season and so that I don't have to deal with the messiness of being human or don't have to deal with the consequences of my actions.
00:30:43
Speaker
And therefore,
00:30:47
Speaker
If you agree with me, do you think it's also harder to learn from the positives and negatives of getting kicked in the face by a horse or making a bad decision at headquarters?
00:31:00
Speaker
ah No, I don't agree with you, Eric. um I'm going to say it that way just to kind of be contrarian a little bit. but um And and i would say it I would say that I think it's probably human nature.
00:31:12
Speaker
ah that we want to avoid these kinds of situations. And there were just other ways we did it. Now it is so much more prominent that you can just, you can turn on or off the relationships that you want.
00:31:25
Speaker
um Where because of proximity, you couldn't necessarily have, yeah if you worked in a, ah in an office in the seventies, then, you know, 1970, you went into that office and you were with those people and around there.
00:31:38
Speaker
But The same attitudes existed in the same mechanisms for how we align or or change or ah ah the conversation or those sorts of things I think existed.
00:31:49
Speaker
Now um we are in a place and and definitely the generations that are coming up are being able to filter through to their own to to to be able to put ourselves into our um our own ecosystems ease in an easier way.
00:32:04
Speaker
Um, then maybe you were, you know, uh, several decades ago. Now what we're seeing is that you're able to put yourself into your own, um, eco chamber, um, quickly and you can do that.
00:32:16
Speaker
I think that the, the, um, way that you, we dealt with, um, conflicts at work and, and communication gaps and those sorts of things, and when you were forced to be around people and be in the, and you had to kind of deal with those situations, you got more practice at it.
00:32:37
Speaker
And so you either could use that and like learn from it and then be able to, to move on. Or you watch somebody else have that. i mean, I think actually one of the, probably the real challenges to having an online environment and people learning to work in this online environment is that you don't get to observe other behavior in like you did in the workplace.
00:32:58
Speaker
Wow, man. When Tanya talked to Jim and they had it out, I do not want that. So I'm going to act differently. you don't really get as much of that in an online environment. So you can be selective about, you know, the kind of meetings that you're in or the way that you, you talk to people. So I think that is harder. I do agree with you in that way that like, now I don't have to, I'm not, um, uh, I can choose when I want to engage and not engage. And I don't even have to be around other, um, situations if I don't want to be.
00:33:25
Speaker
Um, but I think that the, uh, Kind of fundamentally, we've all humans have kind of, this is how we operate. This is how we do it. In our current context, ah we can hide behind um our online environment so easily.
00:33:40
Speaker
And that probably stunts growth or takes longer than to understand how to communicate effectively or um to get over some of those things. But it affects you no matter what. If you just...
00:33:51
Speaker
don't engage, you so it still affects you. And so now the next situation you're in that is uncomfortable, you may be even less inclined to connect or or work through a challenge.
00:34:03
Speaker
So I don't know that I'm answering your question as much as to say that I think that we we this has always been something that we as people need to work on and work through.
00:34:14
Speaker
um The best kinds of cultures and environments create the opportunity to work through those things together. I think what I hear you saying is that, yes, human nature remains the same.
00:34:27
Speaker
Some of us are predisposed to just avoid learning from getting kicked by the pony. And some of us are just a little bit more committed to maybe it's worth it to deal with an uncomfortable situation for some greater good.
00:34:46
Speaker
Human nature is what it is. But maybe what has changed is that that thing like I was saying of I just am progressively over time better at or it has become easier for me to avoid getting into the uncomfortable situation in the first place.
00:35:09
Speaker
Is that right? to To poke on that a little bit more, I would say, you know, if we kind of step back from that situation, you If in my case, I walked around the horse and I got kicked by the pony and then I learned from that. So I behaved differently when I walked around the pony.
00:35:28
Speaker
um Then I learned that um I want to be with the pony, but I want to be with it in a way that is going to be safe for me. If I were to get kicked by the pony and be like, I'm not going to be around ponies anymore, then I have learned that what I want is to not have pain.
00:35:48
Speaker
And so I'm not even going to engage with the pony. I'm not even going to be in that situation because I don't, I've learned, I don't want the paint. So the, I learned something.
00:35:59
Speaker
We, we learned something we did. We, we then, we created a path it It just was a path. Was that the, did I even realize that that path that I created for myself by not being around horses anymore, it kept me from some real enjoyment in my life. If I could have just gotten through the pain of a little bit of learning how to walk around the horse, I could have really enjoyed the experience of having, you know, be with the pony.
00:36:27
Speaker
And which I, you know, now that I'm thinking about that a little bit more, maybe that's what my dad was going for was like the cost of you're going to learn something one way or another. you're going to learn it. Are you going to learn how to be around that horse and enjoy it in, ah in the right kind of way in the right relationship? Are you going to learn that you don't want to, you don't want to be here?
00:36:45
Speaker
And we often, I think, can fall into the trap of, well, I didn't want to get, i i didn't want to get hurt. And so I just won't engage with that anymore.
00:36:57
Speaker
I won't even be in that position. And I made that choice. i didn't even realize I made that choice. I just thought that I could, that I just walked away from it. um But you did make a choice subconsciously.
00:37:11
Speaker
Um, or deeper in your person, you've made a choice and you've learned to then, um, go about that. And we, we, as people, again, back to kind of the human nature of it all is that we have figured out how to cope with everything.
00:37:26
Speaker
We figured it out. And in some way, our, our coping mechanisms are the kinds of things that put us back in the position where we want to be. Like, is this, is this Is this safe? Is this no harm? No, not, ah is there no pain rather?
00:37:43
Speaker
And that it takes my mental brain to say, no, wait a minute, brain. I do want to experience things that might be uncomfortable for me because I want something better on the other side.
00:37:54
Speaker
So brain, you're telling me get away from the horse, but my, you know, that because i emotionally, that's what I want to do. But what I need to do is I need to learn how to adapt to this situation and be different about it.
00:38:06
Speaker
And I think that that is so I'm just kind of coming back to the the like, I think the learning happens. we We learn because we're that's how we are operating. It's like, OK, if I want I don't want that result again. So i'm going to do this other thing.
00:38:20
Speaker
What becomes in maturity as you kind of mature, I think what you understand is a little bit more about the the um the choices that you made by not making a choice or the opportunity cost.
00:38:34
Speaker
Rarely in business are we actually saying, hey, what's the opportunity cost of this? Because what we know is that if i if um we reduce the the expenditure on this thing, we're going to save some money.
00:38:47
Speaker
But the opportunity cost is less opportunity for that thing to produce for the long term. So in that way, it's kind of bringing it back into the business realm like that. I think we made the choice. We didn't even realize we hadn't considered opportunity cost.
00:39:05
Speaker
So then how does mentorship affect this? You know, how does having parent, whether it's the parent who so I think makes a choice for you, perhaps by taking the pony away or having a manager who
00:39:32
Speaker
enables you to avoid getting in the next situation where you might get kicked. You know, you learn one thing or another from getting in an argument or saying something that was not nice to Tanya,
00:39:50
Speaker
And you have the potential of a mentor, manager, leader, coach, someone who can give you input, advice to to influence your thinking or your decision?
00:40:08
Speaker
And I mentioned you having a presentation as, or or an interest in mentorship. How does mentorship influence what might be your, the easy decision or the lack of decision that you might make when put in a painful situation?
00:40:30
Speaker
Yeah, I think that um mentorship is really pretty critical to our development as leaders. um And when I think of mentorship, i it's actually – pretty broad. um the In a traditional sense, somebody who's older, farther along, more seasoned um is really helpful ah to to, has been very helpful to me. I've had a lot of people in my life that um I've looked up to and I wanted
00:41:03
Speaker
I wanted to emulate their career or I've wanted, I like the way they think. And so I want to be around them. um And those people who have been either relationships of mine that I've said, Hey, you know, can I tell you about a situation and tell me what you think about it type situation or even somebody professionally as a coach who I'm going to and saying, Hey, I'm working through these kinds of things.
00:41:26
Speaker
I, I want somebody from the outside helping me think strategically about that or coaching me on what to do. So I've had it, you know, on a professional level and on this personal level. But then I also have a layer of peers, um people who are pretty much the same stage of life as me.
00:41:43
Speaker
And and so I'm talking about, you know, what's happening at work. But I'm also talking about what's happening with my kids. And I'm also talking about what is happening with my wife and um and how these kind of things come together with people who are experiencing the same thing or in the same stage of life. And we're kind of we're we're with each other in in what we are. So I kind of that peer level.
00:42:06
Speaker
And then, um you know, there are people who I and intentionally invest in or intentionally are mentoring um because I think that, you know, I want to share what I've learned. They've said they wanted to learn something from me. So I'm sharing that with them.
00:42:21
Speaker
They teach me as much as I teach them, actually. That and the mentoring part of the relationship is where I'm sharing something. And it is the reflection in our conversation that makes me go, huh, I hadn't really thought about it like that from your perspective as a young person doing this this kind of thing.
00:42:39
Speaker
So um these like levels of mentorship um is a way to be thinking about the kinds of relationships that we have and how they interact with us. Um, and, and so, um, I think that those are really important to have, um, and to have them and they, they come and go. It's not like you have the same mentors all the time or that, you know, that there's seasons of life where, um, different kinds of people can be really involved, you can be really involved or they can be really involved with you.
00:43:11
Speaker
um There are a lot of the mentors that I have that I haven't talked to in, um you know, a year or two. But I know that if I texted them or called them, um we could pick right up in our in our relationship or in the questions that I have.
00:43:27
Speaker
There are some people who I talk to regularly who, um you know, ah because I'm continually asking them their opinion about something. What I have found is that the probably the most important mentors in my life, like the way they have mentored me that has been the most impactful is that they mostly listen and they mostly question in the most kind of encouraging way.
00:43:53
Speaker
they They actually don't give me a lot of advice. even though I'm like, no, I want you to tell me what to do. and they're like, well, tell me what you would do. And, uh, uh, and then we talked through that.
00:44:06
Speaker
Um, and so really as a mentor, someone who is, who listens, who, um, it questions and, and helps me to think through things has been the most beneficial.
00:44:20
Speaker
So then as a mentee, as somebody who's listening, I have to be really open to, being honest about what I'm talking about and how I'm projecting. And so as a mentee, I got, when I'm talking to my mentors, I need to be honest.
00:44:37
Speaker
Um, if i sugar coat or cover up or try to make myself look a little bit better in the situations that I'm in, usually they can tell. Um, but then they get, but it also doesn't do me any good when they're like, well, you seem to be doing it right.
00:44:52
Speaker
Well, that's Oh, it's that's not happening. You know, so how ah being honest, being really active in the relationship. So I pursue them. I pursue the guys that I need their advice. So the people in my life that I'm like, I need to, I need help working through this stuff.
00:45:08
Speaker
I'm active in going after those things, not passive about it. And and then when they do you encourage me to do something, I'm pretty open to it. I'm pretty open to hear what they have to say.
00:45:19
Speaker
Now, rarely do I take what they say and do it blindly. um What happens to happen is that they say something. I don't like it It makes me mad.
00:45:32
Speaker
They say i should do it in a way. And I'm like, no. And I'm still open to them so that later as I begin to process, I go like, oh, man, that really is good advice. Oh, that really is pretty profound.
00:45:45
Speaker
um I do need to pursue that line of thinking. And, uh, um, so I find that as a, as a mentee, you gotta be open. Um, and usually it's when you're, when you like have this reaction of no way, that's usually when you got to lean in, um, to it. So anyway, that's, uh,
00:46:03
Speaker
kind how I see the mentor mentee relationship and how it's worked for me. If you had to say, I really think you should keep in mind X and do Y and look for Z related to mentorship.
00:46:18
Speaker
What would you suggest for someone early in their career? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I would suggest somebody who is early in their career ah who is eager to grow and and and really to kind of be the best that that they can be is to find somebody in the company um that you admire the way they think.
00:46:41
Speaker
Not necessarily what it is that they do, but the way they think. And that could be somebody who's in a completely different department. um but you've observed some behavior that you like, wow, I really like the way you think. And ah to invite them to lunch or coffee and ah ask them questions about how they got to where they are. Start by being active in um pursuing somebody who you're seeing some characteristics that you really admire in some way.
00:47:07
Speaker
I think in a company, um it's the easiest to be able to say, well, how How did you get to where you are in the roles that you're in and what you did? um And because you have that shared experience of the company that you're working in, you can do that without it being the person in a company. could be somebody in some other aspect adjacent in your life um for sure. And there can be a lot of value in that too. But it's for somebody who's new in their career, just finding somebody else. And you know what?
00:47:33
Speaker
Um, people like being asked about their opinion. So if you go to a senior VP and you say, Hey, I would like, can do can I take you to coffee or lunch so I could ask you some about your career there?
00:47:46
Speaker
The likelihood of them saying yes is pretty high. It can be very nerve wracking to go ask a question like that, to send an email request like that, to be able to put yourself out there like that. That can be very challenging. But um the return on that investment is real high.
00:48:02
Speaker
and And the likelihood of getting somebody to talk with you um is is pretty good. So um I'd say that's a good first step. Now, if you're looking for something that is a little bit more specific in a um in that you want to overcome some particular component um and you're looking for somebody to help you in ah in a more um like like, let's continue to meet regularly for a certain amount of time.
00:48:28
Speaker
then a way to do that is definitely with, ah you know, as you, as you meet somebody in the company who's willing to do that, setting some parameters for, could we meet every other week for three months and that I could talk specifically about this thing or, you know, or whatever, ah presume putting some parameters around it really helps to um have a beginning and an end to a a mentorship in the, in the kind of workplace. Yeah.
00:48:55
Speaker
If you're at a more um senior level and that isn't available to you in your work environment, then having a coach, just like you were mentioning, Eric, I've had many coaches that have been very beneficial to me.
00:49:09
Speaker
Hiring a business coach can be somebody who um helps you to challenge your own thinking and because you're at a senior, you're at a level that that's just not really available to you within the work context.
00:49:21
Speaker
Um, and so that again, with kind of a beginning and an end, lot of those ah kind of coaches have a program they walk people through. um and it is also like, if you don't know what it is, you, I know I want to grow, but I don't really know how or what to do.
00:49:36
Speaker
Then a coach can be really good for giving you a framework for how to start to work through some of those things. Um, even discovering what it is that I need to work through. So um I think those are two kind of practical. You can do that as young in your career, too. You should. But um that when you're in a more senior level role, it's harder to find somebody in the company to do that with sometimes.
00:49:57
Speaker
And it not. to I mean, when you're in a senior role, um I think peer relationships can get um touchy and and difficult because you can get into gossip real fast and that that you want to avoid that.
00:50:08
Speaker
Um, but, uh, uh, that, you know, so for somebody in in a more senior level, um, having an outside coach can be very helpful. After I have reached out to someone and said, can i ask you some questions? Can I pick your brain?
00:50:26
Speaker
Whatever the phrasing is, you know, can, would you mind mentoring me? Are there things that I can do to ensure that I'm a good mentee or that I'm getting the most out of that experience?
00:50:39
Speaker
ah There certainly is. There's certainly um a lot of things that you can do. I think the the first one, being active, being proactive in the relationship is really important.
00:50:52
Speaker
um As a mentee, as you're somebody who is wanting to... um engage with somebody and extract some value from what they have for you, you, you're, you want to pursue that.
00:51:04
Speaker
So you want to, you're not waiting for, um, to to ask, well, can we meet again? Or I'll wait until they say it's okay. You're asking would, could, could we meet in two weeks? Could we, um, could I do this and show it to you?
00:51:18
Speaker
um you're You're being proactive in the way that you're you know interacting. I think along with that, too, is um really being honest about ah where you're coming from.
00:51:29
Speaker
And when they ask you a question, be upfront, be honest about it that you don't know. I don't know the answer to this or think this is what I'm thinking. I don't i don't really um is. I don't know if this is a good idea or not.
00:51:44
Speaker
those types of just being honest, um, in, and not trying to, um, somehow present yourself in a way that is I'm better than, know, I want you to perceive me mentor as somebody who's really got it together.
00:51:57
Speaker
so I'm going to present in a certain way, um, resist that urge and lean into the opportunity to be honest where you are about things. And then when they give you tasks, assignments, things to do, do them.
00:52:11
Speaker
Um, if they tell you to read a book or to, uh, uh, think about it in a particular kind of way, do that and follow up or or whatever. I, you know, I, there have been a many times where somebody has said to me, um you know, you should write this down and journal about it or some, you know, whatever here, think about this and write this in a, in a way. and I used to be resistant to that, but now I'm um ah a pretty avid journaler because It didn't matter what it was that I wrote down. It's that I processed it and they were teaching me how to process it.
00:52:47
Speaker
And um so yeah if I have been like, nah, I don't journal. i don't I don't do that. Then, um ah you know, I would have missed out on a really beneficial part of what this mentor was saying to me.
00:53:00
Speaker
You have been getting more and more active on LinkedIn. And is mentorship something that you're talking more about in your you know sort of publicly distributed thinking?
00:53:17
Speaker
it it It is. It really is. um I talk a lot on my ah my profile on LinkedIn, which I'd love everybody to you know connect. It's great to meet people um because it's community, because it is ah it's an interesting business community. LinkedIn is.
00:53:33
Speaker
um where there is a lot of sharing back and forth. What I'm attempting to do is to add value to the people who are around me by talking about some of these things in in um what it means to have good mentorship, what it means to be a good mentee.
00:53:48
Speaker
Also, what are some of the practical things that you can do in just business development as you are a um you know an emerging leader? What are some of the things that you need to know? At the same time, I'm being mentored on LinkedIn by all the other people who I read and follow and look at and see their information and comment about things that are like, wow, this is really good information about mindset, about um leadership techniques, about really practical ways to communicate, um that how to use AI in ways we haven't thought about them before, being mentored even by interacting on the platform.
00:54:28
Speaker
So um the the opportunity for me to kind of put information out in the world is to share what I know, is to be able to help somebody else to either be curious about a situation or maybe not get kicked in the face if ah you know if they can avoid it.
00:54:43
Speaker
um Or at least, hey, I was kicked in the face too and it hurts and we can both talk about that. um And so if i but I'm putting that out of the world with ah the attempt to bring value to people, um and I also am getting a lot of value out of my um feed on LinkedIn, I really like LinkedIn because it is pretty specific to the business environment.
00:55:06
Speaker
you can get sucked into a lot of rabbit holes on other social media platforms that is an algorithm creating an algorithm, you know, sequence for you. And um we're on LinkedIn. It is still doing that, but it is at least with some, ah you know, micro learning happening and some engagement with your audience that can help you to to be better in this particular area of business and and and life.
00:55:31
Speaker
Do you think that There is a particular value for the general listener here of being more active, whether it's through sharing their own thoughts or it's commenting or creating content or being ah thought leader.
00:55:54
Speaker
Absolutely. I think that is very valuable. and Mainly because the way that we learn um and we we take in information, but it's when we articulate it and are able to teach it that it has made its way all the way through the journey, the learning journey.
00:56:14
Speaker
um And so you can be a consumer of a lot of information if you are consuming some some something and it is resonating with you or you're taking something away from that.
00:56:25
Speaker
being able to share that and on a platform like LinkedIn or or some other place and say, what this person did, i thought about it like this. And that's making me think now like that.
00:56:36
Speaker
That's valuable for us to all see that process. So um I comment on a lot of people's LinkedIn profiles where they've I'm like, thanks for this information that you shared.
00:56:48
Speaker
I didn't know this before. And now I do. That added a lot of value to me. So I then share it to my group of people um to say, I learned this. I didn't know before. You might want to know this, too.
00:57:00
Speaker
Here is that information. Um, being in the position that I'm in, I am farther along in my career to have some of my own thoughts about how those things are relating to business today.
00:57:12
Speaker
That ah is, uh, is, uh, I can, I can create my own content. That is my take on the things that are going on. And, and that can be valuable to the types of people that I interact with and and are around.
00:57:25
Speaker
But I think as a general listener to this podcast, to any kind of interaction you have with it is what did you take away from this? How did it impact you? what What did you think about it? Agree or disagree? In fact, most of the time, if you disagree, that's where the magic happens.
00:57:42
Speaker
So if you think, boy, this guy's full of it, say that so that there can be the conversation about why is that? um And and so I think that it is really important for us to to be sharing, um be sharing our own thoughts about situations. And that's where I get back.
00:58:01
Speaker
I narrow it to the business field that we are working in, because what people what I ate for breakfast, I think, is less much less relevant. then ah you know than what I think about how we ah use strategic thought or cognitive biases to change the way that we operate.
00:58:20
Speaker
I think that's much more relevant than a picture of my cat, although I like to post pictures of my cat. Do you think that the importance of sharing or engaging in ah place like LinkedIn, and we don't have to stick there, but just using it as a place where I think you have a higher chance of encountering things that will influence your career.
00:58:45
Speaker
you know Do you think that that importance is changing over time? Is it becoming more and more important? Or in certain respects, would you say it is as important as it has ever been? It remains as important as it has ever been.
00:59:05
Speaker
I think it is more important than it has been um because as you and I were talking earlier about the like distance, physical distance from people, you're not getting as much overhearing a conversation between two other colleagues about a situation um that you may face in the future and then absorbing that.
00:59:24
Speaker
Cause we're not set up for that as much. Um, and, or you don't have opportunities to be, um, well, let me say it this way. There's a much easier opportunity to be in the middle of a conversation between two CEOs on LinkedIn and,
00:59:40
Speaker
Or on the, you know, on another um platform where you're where there's a podcast. So listening to this podcast now and gleaning things of it ah creates an opportunity for somebody to listen in and ah to observe things that they would not have if.
00:59:56
Speaker
we were in the office, you know, you and i Eric are working together and, and, and they weren't there. they they, they couldn't, now they get to now you, so take advantage of the opportunities to listen into conversations that are happening among people that um you respect and and find really worthwhile.
01:00:14
Speaker
So that it's more important now that you take advantages, take advantage of the technology and the opportunity that we have to do that than, um, than you had access to when you were, but you know, and a few decades ago.
01:00:31
Speaker
And if I've understood you correctly, there is a similar kind of importance or opportunity for not just getting access to those people or those conversations or those thoughts,
01:00:48
Speaker
There's a similar opportunity to sharing. If you know something, you can build your brand. You yeah can potentially connect with other people because somebody sees this. And like you said, somebody can say back to you, I never thought about this. Or if not for you, I would not have been exposed to this thing. So it's not just...
01:01:10
Speaker
getting access to someone's thoughts. It's also you, Michael, or you, Eric, can expose yourself to other people. Yeah.
01:01:20
Speaker
Yes. um Michael, you mentioned... you ask people, you know, please do connect with you Like I said, i think maybe two times I've seen you getting more active and, you know, this is really our second in-depth conversation. And I was very impressed the first time you were very thoughtful and intelligent person.
01:01:46
Speaker
And You're a good host, Eric. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. There was quite a bit that we talked about in our first conversation and that was about our children, for example, and that was very impactful for me. So, you know, and know we didn't talk so much about that, but we but some of what we talked about here was applicable across, you know, our personal or and professional lives, if we can make those distinct. And I realize that they often are not, but so I appreciate you being here.
01:02:20
Speaker
I'm going to point people to some of the things that you've mentioned, like look East and the center for food integrity and your LinkedIn profile. And I will ask you two things.
01:02:34
Speaker
One is, is there anything else you would point people to or anything else you would ask them to do? And the second thing is, do you have any parting words of wisdom or things you want to leave us with before we wrap up?
01:02:48
Speaker
Uh, I would say so, um,
01:02:54
Speaker
In an age of AI where all information is accessible to you all the time, and use use AI as an opportunity to clarify your thinking, not to do the thinking for you.
01:03:11
Speaker
um Let it challenge you said to operate. um Don't make it your operation. And there have been a lot of people, a lot of very smart people who are talking about AI is a great assistant and a terrible master.
01:03:29
Speaker
Don't let it become your master. um and And that comes from being curious about all kinds of other things that are in life besides AI or what it can do, but let it be your assistant um in the things that you're doing. So I think as we become, as it becomes more ubiquitous and we become, we have more um AI native ah people, um the, the opportunity to let it do the strategic thinking or to do the critical thinking um will be very tempting.
01:04:01
Speaker
And we have to fight that with all of our, you know, all of our humanity, ah To to help people to continue to be critical thinkers and and and to operate at at ah the kind of level that is our humanity.
01:04:16
Speaker
So um that's my you know, that's what I would say is is something else I would want to add to our conversation to today. I think that in terms of like, um you know, moving forward and moving forward in life, ah there is.
01:04:30
Speaker
so much good that is available. There's a lot that feels like pressure on all of us all the time. And, and so having good relationships, having people around, having mentors, having friendships like this one um with you, Eric is, is the kind of thing that um keeps us going. And I hope it will keep you going, keep helping you to to think through that. We're in this together.
01:04:55
Speaker
We're in this life together. Um, and, uh, it's a lot of people that can feel alone and distant and, and like, this is only happening to me. And, um, and while it is, you're the only one who can feel it that way. There's a lot of, you know everybody has had some sort of experience that is similar. And, uh, it's in that shared similar experience that we can be together in and survive some of this, the stuff that is really tough right now.
01:05:23
Speaker
I love that, both of them, but you know I feel like the but first thing is some great guidance. And i think the second thing that you shared there is great guidance, but also potentially inspirational.
01:05:39
Speaker
And so I appreciate you sharing that. And Michael, I think I hope that I said it earlier, but if I didn't, thank you for being here. I'm really glad that you ah agreed to join me. It's been a long conversation, you know, getting here.
01:05:56
Speaker
And I, as I just said a minute ago, I enjoyed our first conversation in depth and I really enjoyed this one. So thank you for recording with me. Yeah. Thank you very much for the opportunity, Eric. I really enjoyed it.
01:06:10
Speaker
Hey, thank you for listening. I hope you got a lot out of today's conversation. If you enjoyed the episode, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe, and please share it with someone you know who'd appreciate this kind of information.
01:06:26
Speaker
If you want to bring this kind of thinking to your own business, check out mine at inboundandagile.com. We specialize in helping leaders with challenges around marketing, communications, and leadership so they can inspire real action in their people and audiences.
01:06:44
Speaker
Thanks again for listening, and I hope you'll come back for future episodes.