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When GW Takes Your Toys Away
195 Plays1 year ago
This week we talk about squatting, rules changes, the silo-ing of GW games whether purposeful or not.
We really put the world to rights.
Featuring the dulcet tones of Mikey, from Hellstorm Wargaming
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the second episode of PK's The War Room, which is a podcast that is named the same thing as my YouTube channel, because I just, I was thinking about calling it War Dollies, but I think War Dollies was my, yeah, I wish I called it that. Hello Mikey. Hello. Thanks for having me back. Episode two. Exactly. They call me the two time, you know. Yeah, exactly. This is it though, this is the last one. Oh shit, okay. Don't mind.
00:00:23
Speaker
You're now a friend of the pod. The pod's only been going for two episodes, but you're actually the only friend of the pod I know. Have I say this because you've got no one else to come on. Okay, I get it. That's not true. I've got other people in the pipeline, you fuck. What, you only care about other people and not me? I understand. That is true. They've all got more subscribers than you. True. True. I
Social Media Controversy Discussion
00:00:41
Speaker
know.
00:00:41
Speaker
but okay so this week we haven't had a big controversy on Twitter or on social media in general the Daily Mail hasn't reported on woke hammer no of course we just hit the fallout of last week I think you know yeah it's still going yeah the half-life of that controversy is still going
00:00:59
Speaker
Do we have the Daily Mail article last time we spoke? No, it was literally just that though. Yeah, because I remember you were editing it and I was like, look at this article, what the hell? Yeah, that was easy to me. Okay, before we get into
Podcast Availability and Focus on Warhammer
00:01:10
Speaker
all the other stuff. So this is a podcast. If you listen to it on a podcast platform, let me know because that's really interesting because no fucker else does.
00:01:17
Speaker
If you want to see episode one, it'll be in a playlist on this channel. The idea is that we just taught Warhammer and tabletop gaming to an extent. So I'm going to probably mention Crisis Protocol. I've been getting really thoughtful of the gash to paint them all. I thought they were not Warhammer. Do you want views or not? Yeah, that is true. That's the sad thing, right? If you're talking about card games, it has to be one of the Modelific 3. And if it's tabletop, it's basically anything by GW. I do love Marvel Crisis Protocol to be fair. The models are sick.
00:01:39
Speaker
The models are sick, and I also love retro paint schemes. Anyway, a big quick plug. If you like what I do, please subscribe to the channel. And if you're part of my Patreon Discord, I'm gonna start a section of this podcast from next episode, where if you've posed questions in the Discord in the question room for the Warhammer podcast, I will talk about them with my guests. So if you want to pose specific questions about the hobby, whether they be real, like, niche shit, like, am I the asshole for...
00:02:03
Speaker
not playing the correct rules, or can I proxy one of these at one of Mikey's events, which the answer would probably be no, he's very, very strict. You wouldn't let me play my fucking Gorkanort. Is that a Gorkanort? It's a Star Wars figure with wrong guns. Anyway, if you want to ask any questions, make sure you join the boardroom, the question boardroom, what did you call it? It's just gonna be a room in my Patreon.
Mikey's Weekly Activities and Warhammer Community
00:02:27
Speaker
There'll be a link in the description below. Anyway, let's start out with the really soft shit that all podcasts like this do, and I like doing it.
00:02:33
Speaker
What have you been hoping? What have you been doing this week? I don't know what I've been doing. I've been streaming because that's my job. I've also, I ran a tournament last week. I think I mentioned I was running a tournament in the last episode. What was it? What time was it? It was a 1.40K tournament and we had 51 players turn up, which is pretty cool. Superstars? Is that this? Yeah. So it's got, well, this was the all stars. And then we have the super all stars, which is the big one, you know? So we've got like the mini ones, which is April and November, then the big one in August, which you're coming to.
00:03:01
Speaker
Should be cool. I plan to I have not made any plans Yes, well you I was about to joke that you didn't invite me to last one And then you just threw that be as I was closing my email app that came up. Um I'm so fucking professional. Yes. I'm planning to be there at the end of August. I Well, what I need to do is make some plans and make sure doesn't it shouldn't correspond or conflict with any both fathering duties and magic stuff
00:03:25
Speaker
Vince is a bit invited, okay? Is that the owl? The owl has had the notes sent. That's the big one, yeah, in Sheffield, which would be pretty fun. So the little ones feed into the big one? Yeah, so like, because like, a lot of people who watch my channel are like new to competitive, and they're like, oh, I really got a total of a big one scares me. And I'm like, okay, well, we have these like mini ones, we run those a little bit more often.
00:03:44
Speaker
And they're like a mid-sized GT. They're probably bigger than a normal mid-sized GT, but I like to foster a really friendly community of obviously really good players, but also people who are brand new. So it wasn't a shark tank with the best players in the country? There was a couple of really good players, don't get me wrong, but those really good players are also super nice. And if you're playing against them, they're not coachy, but they're not
00:04:09
Speaker
Because my first ever, like, non-casual tournament was one of yours. It was your white sanctuary that time. And my first two round opponents were like, I'm the best Knights player in the world, and I'm going to use a chess clock, and if you take your hands off your models, you can't move them again. I was like, this is intense. And then my second round was against a notorious cheetah who's also very good. So, like, my first two rounds of competitive wallhouse should have scared the shit out of me, but it just made me froth for more.
00:04:32
Speaker
Yeah, I'm just doing the deep end, you know, I'm just like, you know what? I've never met you before. Come on, let's go. That is true. I wonder if I lost both those matches with Ryan. Because if I'd lost both of those, I probably would have been like, fuck, this is too much. Because you won the first one, lost the second one. I did. My best night's player in the universe. I just shot 27 melter guns and they all died by turn two. It's like that was the issue where melter guns killed nights real easy. Oh, yeah, definitely. But now we don't we don't foster the cheaters or the really horrible people. We kind of stopped that out. They were horrible.
00:05:02
Speaker
In defense, I'm not going to name and shame here. Maybe one day I will. But my first run of it wasn't horrible. He was just intense. Way too intense when I said, hi, this is my first ever competitive tournament game. And he was like, wow, this is a chess clock. And I'm a cunt. He wasn't really a cunt. Anyway, so who won? What won? So what won was surprise, surprise Josh Roberts with Necrons, who surprisingly, since I started running events like post,
00:05:28
Speaker
Like probably like all of last year, Josh Roberts, who is obviously was captain of team England. You're saying obviously most people will since this book have no fucking idea. I'm telling you, Josh Roberts, previous captain of team England, previous vice captain of team England, previous captain, he's basically always been captain or vice captain. Now he's the guy who basically writes balance for 40k. He's the face of meta watch.
00:05:52
Speaker
Oh, I've seen this referenced on Reddit. Yeah. So, so he's playing Hypocrypt. Yeah. He was playing Hypocrypt. He's won all but two of my events, which is quite funny. With Hypocrypt? No, just in general. Just in general. Is he like us? Well, no, you always play Marines. Is he like sweaty try-hive like me who skips between armies? He does play whatever's good because he's played for England. If you're going to play for like a new country, I don't think he can stick to one army as much as I would love that. That'd be cool.
00:06:21
Speaker
but he does play whatever's good but like yeah he started working with GW like last year and now he's like the face of meta watch and he won with hyper, er, no, cannot take core Necrons, not hyper prep. Oh, okay, the race one. The core, actually no, core makes more sense because core's the one that scabs are better, right, because they get the pre-game move or four deploy one or two.
00:06:38
Speaker
No, so it's the one that makes Wraiths reroll hits when they're in the shadow. What did I just say? You said something about scarabs. Oh, sorry, I mean Wraiths. Oh, the same fucking thing. They got six arms. I meant Wraiths. Oh, it's the rerolls. They always have the forward deploy. One unit has a forward deploy from a relic.
00:06:53
Speaker
I think so, yeah. Stress in my mind. I haven't played against them in like, yeah. So it's 80 rates. Okay. With all, with techno monsters to give them five out of fill a pain. They reroll hits whilst they're in the, I call it the shadow because it's the same mechanic as cause demons, but it's their own version. Hold up. It's their weave or network or.
00:07:11
Speaker
Yeah, so in their deployment zone, they always get it. If they hold half or more at the start of any phase of the objectives, they get it in the no man's land. And if they hold the half or more in your deployment zone, they get it there. They get re-roll hit. So then they've got loads of really good stratagems. And then he's got like Cesarass, which is the spider character thingy, the big character. He's really good. Wait, there's a spider character?
00:07:32
Speaker
Well, he's a one-armed character. Illumino says they're ours and he's on the legs, right? Oh, okay. So he's not a... You can't say spider because there's actually spiders in the book, right? But he's got legs like the spiders.
00:07:43
Speaker
They've got four legs. There's only four legs. The spiders are much bigger. Hang on. He's quite big. He's very big for a Necro character. You can't see this if you listen to the podcast or go on a second monitor and also ignore the basing because it's terrible. It's in blue fluff. Look how big that base is. Normally they're on like 40 mils. No, I agree. But I think he's just much smaller than a spider, right?
00:08:05
Speaker
Well, the visual language is probably making reference to spiders. The reason I'm putting a face, which you also can't see if you're listening, is that I'd never thought that he was meant to be referencing the spider creature. Have you ever seen the old model?
00:08:16
Speaker
I think so. So he's like, he was on a 25 mil base with six legs and he was like all curled up. That is interesting. I'd never made the association that he's meant to be like a spider. Cause he's like, he's the big named technomancer, isn't he? Cause he's basically half Canop tech. That's why he's got loads of legs. So if the legs are very similar to the reanimators. Yes. So like, so like the reason I say spiders cause he's got loads, he's not got two legs. He's got more than two. He is the coolest model other than perhaps the void dragon and the entire neck on codex.
00:08:44
Speaker
He's very sick. I love the guy on the ground who's just getting sucked. Yeah, the fact that he's like sucking out the viscera off in this poor, this poor imperial like bureaucrat. He's just like a desk worker. He's just ordering a- Wrong place, wrong time. Yeah, he's walking to the wrong room and they're like, anyway, sorry if that was all for the microphone. That was great. It was great. So he's like him and then he's like the Forge World acanthrites, I think they're called. They have centipedes. They're like, no, not the centipedes. They're like,
00:09:14
Speaker
They're really, you've got to look at them up. They're very strange. So they're like a bit halfway between a Wraith and a Scarab. But they've got like melter guns in their mouth. And they come in units of three and they have like a really strange rule. I believe stacks. It's something like every time they shoot a unit, shoot a unit, the Necrons get an additional AP. They're like very strange. Very, very strange. I just try to look them on the shop live, which I'm probably going to cut for the video. I don't think you can buy them anymore.
00:09:56
Speaker
You got it? It's just, no, it's giving me loads of arcane journals for games that I don't play. Akkenthrites. Akkenthrites. This is the kind of Warhammer content you've got. Oh, these things, they look like flies. Yeah. So they have a rule called damaged armour. In your shooting phase, after the shooting is shot, select one enemy unit hit by one or more attacks. Until the end of the phase, each time a friendly Necrons model makes an attack and scores a critical wound, so a six to wound, increase the AP by one.
00:10:08
Speaker
But also I can't spell them. So we've got two hurdles there. They exist in the shop.
00:10:21
Speaker
Okay, so it sounds good. Yeah, it does sound good. I do like the stacking buffs. I do like when you can like stack the shit up. But that's the thing because obviously like 40k now, they've essentially added like status effects. So like this certain set, like, like, for example, the big one, if you are, if you were shook from a battle on Earth, chicken cannon, you can't be sure. Yeah, or suppressed. But this doesn't have a space status effect. It's like armor damage status effect. It's just like a
00:10:44
Speaker
Because it would say, in your shooting phase, when it's been hit, this unit is now treated as damage armor. Because it doesn't have that, if you shoot three of these into the same unit, a 6-to-1 is an additional AP 3. So here's an interesting, so people at home are like, well, well, some people might say this, not everyone. Some people are listening like, why the fuck are they talking so much about Archon's Souls or whatever they're called.
00:11:03
Speaker
Some people are probably thinking there's a precedent there that actually everything is a status effect and it can't layer. That's not necessarily true. An example that I've wanted to talk about this in a video for ages is that the demons have a character that can stack a buff. That is plus one strength, plus one AP, plus one damage. The blood throne of Korn. The red master on blood throne, yeah.
00:11:21
Speaker
So you can actually get like Scarbound or something like this is roughly but it's like 22 strength AP 5 damage 5 or something like he becomes insane and you can do something anything because they all target a unit and then your corn stuff gets that buff against that unit when you fight the combat. So this is the same mechanic.
00:11:38
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So there is precedent that this exists elsewhere. Yeah. It might be like a usable and maybe it's something that if this becomes a meta build, like GW like, well, maybe we should patch this out. But yeah, I think they'll get legends because they don't sell them on Forge World anymore. So they are on the GW shop. I just found them. Okay. They're 52 pounds. They're temporarily out of stock, which actually really means if we're honest, they're out of stock forever now. Yeah. And you can tell they're a Forge World model because they have no paint job. That's just just great. Yeah. And the greatest ones when you buy them.
00:12:08
Speaker
Exactly, but it's I hate how misleading some of the forge rod shit is because they're gray on the website in a gray It looks like plastic. Yeah Guaranteed, they call it expert kit. That's their their loophole now. It really means the worst resin on the market. Yeah
00:12:23
Speaker
I've got strong opinions about Forge World, which is actually going to be really relevant for this podcast because our main topic is going to be how they keep squatting everything and removing shit from the game. Anyway, what have I been doing? Not a lot. I've played some orcs. Nice. Did you use bully boys or do you do something else? Oh, hang on. We've moved on. I wanted to say something.
00:12:40
Speaker
The reason I'd heard about your winner from your event was that someone on Reddit had said, isn't it funny that Net Quantum didn't get a nerf by them? They're being point adjusted by the guy who's winning with them. But that's actually not true because the Technomancers went up in points and the data set that came yesterday. Yeah, Technomancers went up 25 points, Caesareas, Spider went up 25 or 30 points. So it's so interesting because, stop calling him a fucking Spider. Spider-man.
00:13:03
Speaker
This is the land speeder argument we're over again. It's the land speeder profile. It doesn't move 12. Anyway, that's an anecdote that I'm not gonna go into. So- One day. One day we'll tell that story. Or you can go watch the battle report on my channel, which you were on when you were trying to say everything was a land speeder. I'm like, it's not a fucking land speeder if it moves six. Anyway.
00:13:21
Speaker
It's a good example of how sometimes you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet, especially on a Twitter or on a Reddit thread. Because someone had said, it's so funny they haven't adjusted them in response to the data slate on the competitive thing. And they have. They have. They are too good in my opinion. But instead of nerfing the vase, they've nerfed the technology that you have to take with them to make them good.
00:13:39
Speaker
Yeah, which I was saying, I'm surprised I didn't bump both, but arguably, yeah, the rates are pretty bad solo without a techno-mancer. They're not great. They're decent. But with the techno-mancer, they become a little bit insane. Now, if you're not running techno-mancer with a race, you're running techno-mancer with warriors. You're a little bit sad. So let's explain for the kiddies at home what a techno-mancer does to the race. So it gives them the envelope of field of pain, right? So it gives them a field of pain of 5 plus. Yeah, so that line becomes
00:14:09
Speaker
T6, four wounds, four up in one natively, and a five plus field of pain. Yeah, which then each turn you can revive them so you can heal them back off. Yes, either heal a mod or revive thanks to animation protocols. They're kind of nuts. They are probably the best tar pit in the game currently, although the orcs might have just got something comparable. Yeah, I think so. We'll talk about that in a moment. So yeah, I hate them.
00:14:32
Speaker
And anyone taking 18 of them, that is a clear sign that something needs to be adjusted. It's the four wins that throws them off, like even if they're damaged, but like a lot of people have like, like two to three damage as standard. It's like, to deal with that is four wins, it's a bit annoying. So then they're ignoring a third of the wins. So they're ignoring one of them. So your two damage shots now do three wins. One's still alive, one more win. There's some math that someone tried to explain to me once that I didn't quite get, but I still believe it. I was like, I'm shit at math, so I believe you. That a five plus feeling of pain,
00:15:02
Speaker
is a wound increase of somewhere like, what's the percentage? Do you know the number? I know a four plus phone append is meant to be like 150% wound increase. Something crazy. Would it be like 33% increase? No, I think it's way more than that.
00:15:17
Speaker
because of the nature of rolling. I wish I had the number to hank, because now I'm just saying, shit, that doesn't make sense. But it's a lot. Basically, it's way more than you think. It makes the base seem like there's actually a fucking double the number of them, and they're big bases, and they can move through objectives. And they've got OC2, is that correct? OC2, yeah. And they're just really good stratagems, because they've got a move after UN near them type pros. Yeah, reactive moves. Reactive moves are probably some of the strongest things in the game before. Playing at a competitive level, if you're a casual listener, I'm so sorry. We're going into this.
00:15:44
Speaker
The last thing, I was going to say, it's very interesting having... It's interesting to win because Josh is a very good player. He's always been a very good player before he joined GW. And then he's winning loads of events with arguably one of the best meta builds at the time, which is obviously like... On one hand, you can be like, which is probably what Reddit is coming from. It's like, whoa, Games Workshop staff will do loads of events. That's really cringe, which I agree is a bit cringe.
00:16:05
Speaker
but also don't you beforehand games which i've had no one going to event and winning so did they understand the game as well as someone like josh maybe not because he's played he's played every meta bill because he's having to beat the he is beating them with his necrons and he's like okay that list is pretty sick the guy writing or involved with meta watch should actually have a grasp on the meta because in the
00:16:24
Speaker
In the past, the Metal Watch articles have had points where they've been kind of laughable, where they're a little bit behind, or they're a little bit skewed. You can argue that it's actually trying to obfuscate the data to make the game look healthier than it is and stuff. Yeah, because they have been criticised for that in the past, especially how they present graphs, where they look like they're really close, but the numbers aren't quite right.
00:16:43
Speaker
So I actually think, I think having him on staff, there's two sides there. So, and I want to compare it to Magic a little bit. Having someone who's good at the game on to balance or a consult on your game is a very good thing. Like game designers are normally, they're not always focused towards making a balanced game at a super high competitive level where everyone's abusing the best stuff. They might be thinking about fun. They might be thinking about the new player experience. There's so many other elements to game design beyond that. So having comp players come in and help with that is good. Magic has it all the time.
00:17:11
Speaker
There's a famous example of a lot of Compromantic players saying, this card you're about to print is too good, and the wizard's completely ignoring it and printing it anyway, and then this card's going to break the game. Which is really funny, they're like, I did say, during testing, this is going to break the game, and it did break the game. But beyond that, there's an interesting thing with Wizards of the Coast, where if you're on payroll,
00:17:30
Speaker
So not consulting, but if you're on payroll, because I'm a member of staff. I don't know what his situation is. Staff can't enter big tournaments. Or at least wizard of the coast sanctioned upper-end tournaments. I guess your tournament wouldn't count as that, so it's fine. That's what I was going to say. The differences with this is Josh is winning loads of independent events because Warhammer, most events are independent. They get a little bit of endorsement from GW. For example, our big event in August has three golden tickets for their World Championship events.
00:17:59
Speaker
Another plug, sorry. Is that what I'm coming to? That's what I'm coming to, yes. I'm going to win one of them. They get a golden ticket to go to Atlanta, so they're like, not, but they even then contractually, we're not like, sponsored by GW, it's just like, it's a minor endorsement of like, you run a good event, here's a little thing. I don't think Josh is allowed to go to like, the US opens, which are the GW sanction events and play there. But can he win a golden ticket?
00:18:26
Speaker
I think he has won a golden ticket, but I don't know if he's- Because that's where the line is, and I'm sorry to- I don't know this guy, and I've not really got strong opinions on this, but it's an interesting talking point, that should a GW staff member be able to win prizes like that? Because it's a bad look, if all three of those golden tickets get won by like three playtesters, balance changes, or like, that would be a bad look. I think that's the main reason why there's rules about what's his staff can enter. Yeah, so I think he's- Well, in the pro player, consultants can enter stuff, so.
00:18:54
Speaker
Yeah, I think he's won a place because of the events he's won, have had, all to think it's available. I don't know if he's in attendance. I don't know if he's going as a judge or a player. He'd probably make more sense for him to go as a judge. But he's also one of those things. It's like, if it's an independent event and it's not endorsed by GW, ultimately anyone could arguably win because if you go, well, they can't play independent events. Where do these play? Yeah. Where do they actually test? Right. It's like, learn the meta, like first hand of like... And the Warhammer 40K TTS Discord, obviously.
00:19:25
Speaker
That's not shade, by the way. I love TTS, but I'm just saying it's not the best way to test your game. It's definitely an interesting talking point, I think. I think it's like on one hand, I could understand the frustration when someone is like, works for GW, balances the game, is also winning loads of events. But I think that probably shows an issue where Games Workshop don't run enough events that they can be excluded from, you know, because every event is like independent. I don't think they'd be going to war. I don't think like any playtesters will be going to war have a will to win that one. You know what I mean?
00:19:53
Speaker
Yeah, the softer ones. Yeah, the circle of the ones that I like. I'm throwing shade there, dear listener, because my key... That's the only event I've wanted a while. Yeah, and then got accused of it being the soft, the soft one. It was hard day two, okay? Day two, what are the best baseball players in the country I beat?
00:20:10
Speaker
one of the space wolf players yeah and they're actually probably one of the best meta meta armies now after the last day like yesterday so shut it well now will they be one of the best admake players in the world admake are not on a good spot right now i have to make kim second at my event
00:20:26
Speaker
Wow. That's interesting. So before we move on, what was the admin list looking like? It was basically a humongous one. It's a really, I talked about it on stream on Monday. It's a really interesting place. No, no, no, no, no.
00:20:42
Speaker
So for people listening to understand the stuff we're saying, Manichemo is one of the best players in the country as well. It's absolutely fair to say. He always plays the most... No, easily. Yeah, absolutely. That's very fair to say. He's got... There's an interesting rep about some of the stuff, like, arguments he's gotten into, but he's actually quite a nice guy if I'm completely frank about it. And he plays the strangest, most skewed lists of the most biggest spam to count. Always a spam, yeah. Anything that you could take 900 off, he's probably got that on there.
00:21:05
Speaker
And he often plays the lists that are the kind of lists that I think they need to actually patch out of the game because they ruin tournaments because you can't finish games with them because you're trying to move like 300 little men. Yeah. Anyway. So very quickly, the tactic of this army, it was guitar rehorde, but it wasn't just guitar ranges. It was like loads of other stuff. It was like infiltrators, the 40 mil, toppy guys, the sterilizers, the guys with the wings, the flying ones.
00:21:31
Speaker
Essentially, the entire playstyle was Cockblock, so what it does, it has redeploy after the first turn roll, so it can choose up to three units before the game starts after the first turn roll, it can redeploy three skitire units, everything in that obvious skitire can redeploy three units.
00:21:48
Speaker
Which is very unique because of most armies have redeployed before the first turn role So you know if you're going first basically and also the last balance patch if you have a rule such as Infiltrate it allows you to use that when redeployed which previously didn't so I didn't know that yeah So if you if you have any redeploys you can use infiltrate or any other rule that allows you to deploy differently than just going into deployment So if you win the first role you can infiltrate in and if you lose the first role, sorry You can infiltrate in and body block transport
00:22:17
Speaker
Yeah, or what he did this way, he went first and put all of his infiltrators, et cetera, and there's another unit that can infiltrate as well on the front line and then moves towards his opponent with Scout, because Scout has no limitation of nine-inch deployment zone only models. So in this instance, the opponent had like screened right in the corner and like hid back. So he infiltrated, Scout was six forward, moved forward and blocked him in his deployment zone and couldn't move.
00:22:42
Speaker
They kill all that shit at the front. So just to clarify this again, because I don't want to be too focused, but so in 40k you move, then you shoot, then you charge, then you fight. You cannot most of the time outside of like melter mines and shit. You can't normally do damage before moving. It's very, very, very limited.
00:22:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's very rare. So not like this happens with nerdlings with Scouts in this case a load of stuff in the I've met critics I guess you just get in the way so it's well a key thing if you're potent if you're if you're at your local store and you're one of your Friends is absolutely wrecking you the land raider takes over the four deploys to play on the line. Yeah
00:23:15
Speaker
Even if you lose first turn, they still can't drive past them. If you get first turn, you can walk up to it, stand an inch away and just... And on a rare occasion, you can just charge it, because a land raid is not going to kill three nerking bases in combat, and now it's stuck in combat as well. So body blocking is a huge...
00:23:32
Speaker
Yeah, so they're basically just like box these opponent is opponent was playing hyper grip which is to teleport in electrons So they should be able to play around it a little bit with their redeploys and shit in the teleports So he boxed him in spread all over the board So he couldn't deep strike because the mark was obviously he's got a monolith and monolith is huge. Yeah
00:23:50
Speaker
And what if it's very easy to screen, and by screen we mean don't give it space to drop outside, right? Yeah, he basically had hardly anywhere to drop anything. He basically, I think he only deep struck like a single destroyer, which is like a 160 mil base. That's only deep struck turn one. Killed all the stuff in front of him, but he's still in his deployment zone. Turn two deep strikes all these like winged guys with flamers and stuff. You know, they have a special rule. After they shoot, they can make a normal move of six inches.
00:24:16
Speaker
And there's no restriction in the game at current to stop you moving after deep striking if everyone allows you to? Correct. Correct. So what do you feel? Can you warp move a Magnus post deep striking? Yeah. Now? But you can't charge? Yeah. You can move Magnus like three times as well, which is silly. But yeah, you can move Magnus like three times a turn,
00:24:34
Speaker
Yeah, because in 9v1ish they removed this. They absolutely gutted all the options to move post D-Shrike. When you D-Shrike you stood still, unless you're challenging. But now there's no restrictions. So what happened was is all of these guys with the wings came down, shot their flamers, killed a couple of Necrons, moved 6 inches forwards.
00:24:50
Speaker
So now his opponent had three inches to move forwards, kills all those. It's now turn three, he's still in his deployment zone, he's moved approximately five inches with his entire army. And then I was like, wow. But it's really cool that it's like a completely different way to play.
00:25:05
Speaker
Because the Admik codecs cannot really play the game on the axis that everyone else does, because it's damage output is too low. But it's also, the other thing about this, we won't move on from our intro talking about this event, but I think these are interesting points. Admik has gone to being a horde army, just like sisters have this edition.
00:25:20
Speaker
And both of those armies have expensive kits. So don't actually play them in any capacity. Even reasonably good. Just makes them wildly more expensive than any other game. And yesterday they came down in points as well. Not everything but a lot of units came down. So the army just got like ยฃ150 deer or whatever. Maybe not that amount but not far off, right?
00:25:38
Speaker
It's more it's just you just need so much for a full army, which is very strange But that that list where that list competition in that place I was really interested not something I've seen for a while someone compared it to like blue magic It's like all control it all it does is just like it's not quite the same but someone's just like no It kind of makes sense that you have no damage output. You haven't you only have like one haymakers at work
00:25:59
Speaker
So you're just, well actually it's probably more comparable than Blue Control is to Stax. God, if any of you actually, I assume half my audience is actually playing Magic as well. Stax is the idea that it's prison, so you play cards that start your play from doing anything. So you play a card that says you can't cast 1 mana spells. So you play another card that says that if any spell would be cast it has to have a minimum of 3 mana spent on it. So, and then you blow up one of the lands, the stack on two lands and can't cast anything.
00:26:19
Speaker
It's a thing that I really like, it's stacks, it's prison. That's probably more comparable, because you're just absolutely reducing your opponent's ability to do anything. So they have one thing they can do which is move and shoot, and that's just not enough to play the game. They're just not holding objectives, which is like... Yeah, because that kind of prison control is interesting in War Hammock or Bed to Magic, because imagine you've got infinite time in theory, because you can go to turn 58, right? You can draw your whole deck in theory. Obviously there's time around stuff.
00:26:44
Speaker
But in Warhammer, it's an interesting thing about Warhammer Compared to Magic is that you have five turns and the game ends. So if you can actually just prison your opponent for like three of those or really oppress them, this is kind of what orcs do as well. You just slam into them and they don't get to do much for enough time. You just win.
00:26:59
Speaker
Which is a really interesting comparison because the magic you can just you can draw out of it If you prison someone with no win con and you're just playing they will never to draw out of the prison Yeah, you don't have that time to draw out of the prison. You just know nothing for free Then especially how the missions work because some missions you don't have to interact with your printer or for example Like the one of the most common picks because obviously like in 40k you have an a deck of cards you can either draw from each turn draw two cards they are like mini objectives each turn or you can take two fixed ones, which is like
00:27:27
Speaker
half the deck is allowed to be fixed. It's preset. And you can choose two, and then you play those each turn. And the most common ones is cleanse, which is essentially don't stand on the objective, say you're cleansing it, get some points, and then deploy teleport hermits, which is standing in the middle of the board, say you deployed a teleport hermit, get some points. So actually, you can win Warhammer without shooting a gun once. The whole reason you shoot is to stop your opponent shooting your back and losing units. Yeah, it's trade off like resources that they will use to score points.
00:27:54
Speaker
What happens when a game of points is not killing for the most part? There are like two secondaries that can kill stuff. Yeah, there's like quite a few though, because obviously there's like, if you play tactical, which is like drawing, there's like, I think it's almost half the deck is killing. It's like, there's like, no prisoners. Oh, no prisoners.
00:28:11
Speaker
Yeah. So kill stuff on objectives, kill stuff in general, kill characters, kill vehicles. There are at least four kill ones on 16. That's a third of the deck already. Yeah. So there's like four quarters. There's probably more. Maths is hot. Yeah. So, so like, so yeah, he's just right. He really interesting, like a weird play style. There's like,
00:28:27
Speaker
I played a game on TTS a little while back. I played God and I played as many infantrymen and a Lord Solo as I could. Because they've got four different battle line profiles. You only take six of a battle on a troop. So you can only take six Gods of Conch Scripts or Cadians at 20. But you've got Conch Scripts, Cadians, if not Conch Scripts, infantry, Cadians, Krieg and...
00:28:49
Speaker
Maybe it is conscripts, there's four, isn't there? Either way, you can't actually, if you want to max all those at 20 men, you can't fit them to a dozen points. So I end up with like 210 men plus third solo, and then because you can raise the score to 20, you end up playing about 260 models per the game, playing against Tau, and all I did was, I stopped firing guns after turn one, because it was just pointless firing these flashlights and a metal gun there, and then I just spread out and stood on objectives, and I think I outscored them.
00:29:15
Speaker
Like the game was really low scoring because I couldn't score secondaries and neither could they for the shooty, killy ones. 50% of the points in the game are standing in the right place usually. Yeah. And then we've also got a new faction with the orcs. They've got like a, you can play 120 boys now. I think 120 boys is actually more killy than it sounds, but they could also just be all over the fucking place. And then you're just like, like, body booking. So let's move on for a moment. And we spent a long time talking about that, but I thought it was interesting topics and that's how conversation works.
00:29:45
Speaker
So what about Shudwatch? This is my new segment that might not exist for too long. So the Daily Mail commented on the Custodes thing. Did you read the article Mikey? It's WOKE coming now! I didn't read the article. I laughed all the way through it. And the best bit of the pictures.
00:30:00
Speaker
So there's like A.I.R. of Henry Cavill in a night's outfit. They mentioned Henry Cavill seven times. Well, you know, you've got to get an S.E.R. up, haven't you? A picture of a woman walking past a game's workshop last decade. It's captioned, it's captioned, woman walks past Warhammer shop.
00:30:20
Speaker
Oh man. And then the other one was... Age of Sigmar? There's an Age of Sigmar picture. Oh yeah, there's a picture of some Stormcast. Of Age of Sigmar. Yeah, like... Age of Sigmar versus... Eight-year-old Age of Sigmar picture in relation to Custodies. Yeah. And then the final one was Enthusiast plays Warhammer and it's like a picture of someone playing with like a really badly painted set of like Battle From A Crag. It's Battle From A Crag, yeah. From when I started Warhammer like 20 years ago.
00:30:45
Speaker
edition or something, three or fourth? It was one picture that was relevant. It was from a UKTC event, but I think that, because I think it's supposed to be on some free platform, you know? I assume, well, even UKTC doesn't make much sense, female cosplay's got nothing to do with complay. Well, no, of course. None of these images made any sense. Yeah. Like none of them. There was not a picture of a custodian on the fucking article. It's so funny. Beyond that, a gentleman on Twitter called Derek, I'm not going to give his actual Twitter handle because I don't think he deserves any fucking views. He wrote an email
00:31:13
Speaker
Right, I'm not going to even show it. He wrote an email to, and I quote, the investor relations team at GW. I bet he's got no investments with them either. He's got no stock. And he just basically asked them to unblock him.
00:31:28
Speaker
Yeah, he owns no models either. It's just this login for a wiki I don't own. And I quote, this blocking me on Twitter is divisive action. Not all voices are arguing in good faith. This action damages your brand. Look, they're allowed to block you if you're being a dickhead. That's just how it works. Did you see the other one? The Black Shields post.
00:31:51
Speaker
Yes, oh fuck I did a wide get that one ready. Yeah, go on the footnotes the footnotes is a guy and he's like guys Warhammer is so play L death note theme again war hammer is turned against us. This is our ISV and three It's gone so hard. We skip into its van five cuz Horace the woke and
00:32:26
Speaker
I've read the first three, four, five books.
00:32:30
Speaker
So they virus bomb the loyalists, and then they murder remembrances, which are basically journalists slash historians. So they murder all the ones that weren't, because they don't want this moment being recorded in history. So it's like a huge atrocity, the first big atrocity of the Horaceresi, arguably. There are some other bits. And this guy's just comparing female custodies to like fucking melting your brothers and like murdering historians. It's fucking wild. Oh my god, only brothers, never anything else. No, never anything else, what the fuck are you talking about?
00:33:00
Speaker
You wokey. But then, yeah, so he went on the Black Shields and then he was like, he's basically just cosplaying as a Black Templar. Yeah. I was like, I was convinced it was a bit, but then he kept going and I'm like, maybe it's not a bit. It's like seven or eight tweets long. That's probably the most cringe thing. Like the email to the investor guys is fun. I forgot about Black Shields. So much has happened.
00:33:21
Speaker
Yeah, again, it's the fall. Five or six days. It's crazy. And then this morning you were you added the list of the wokies, right? I am. I am. I am a thousand percent. Sorry. According to that tree. So someone is not even a hundred thousand yellow and green. Red are the woke accounts you shouldn't interact with. Yellow is the fence sitters, which he's not really a friend of the public chapter master, which is really funny because they they call it big.
00:33:47
Speaker
and a fence sitter, and if I'm honest, I don't, I like you, Vaurak, but that might be a little bit accurate, because you're like, I don't know what's going on. Anyway, you're on the red side, on the green side is basically the, it's like arch and any other guy who's upset. All the people who are blacklisted by GW agree, they love Warhammer. Yeah, yeah, all the ones who are like, oh, we can't say slurs on YouTube and that's a bad thing. Yeah, we just say the letter word, et cetera. But you are, and I quote, 1000% soy.
00:34:15
Speaker
I'll take away your budget pride, mate. I'm gonna probably get a T-shirt with it, a thousand percent side in the back. I think I'd be fucking sick, you should. Did you do one? Did you do objective markers?
00:34:25
Speaker
I can't believe they're still using soy. That was a thing that I thought it passed. I know, it would be like 2012 maybe. I know, Hbomber had like fucking murdered that with his video about soy boys, but we're back, we're back baby. And then there's a lot of people on there that are like, it's you, it's Goobertown, it's Midwinter Minis. And with awful people on that list, man.
00:34:45
Speaker
You're in good, you're in good company. Some good people. Some good people. So yeah, that's Judd watch. There's not really much more to it, is it? Just a lot of people still melting down. This is the last segment of Judd watch probably, unless there's something really interesting next week. This is never going to end. This is never going to end.
00:35:02
Speaker
Right, what's going on in Warhammer then outside of the Chuds? Oh, well, everyone's selling their armies and no one else can sell their armies because Gamezware Shopper decided to write them out of the games that they make, which is very fun. That's the main topic for this video. We're 40 minutes at the podcast, we're finally hitting the topic. Sorry everyone.
00:35:19
Speaker
So this video might be called don't squat me bro, but I don't think that's a very good clickable like SEO or so, who knows? But in essence, I really wanted to- Games Workshop killed my army. There you go. Yes, there you go. Fucking that one's for free. Games Workshop killed my dog slash army. I think that's about 52 miniatures uploaded yesterday. He's also on the red list of being sorry or woke or whatever. He was like Games Workshop killed my army. Have his custom storm cast army just like out the window.
00:35:47
Speaker
Okay, so let's wait for a second then. So, four traditions coming this summer. Sure is. Quite excited myself. Are you going to play? Yeah, I was like a huge fan of Age of Sigmar, especially when 40k was really bad. I like all-sending Age of Sigmar. And I think it's a great game. I think it's really fun. And it feels like 10th Age of 40k has borrowed a lot from it, such as the reactionary side of it, like being able to interact with the opponent in their turn, which has made it quite fun.
00:36:12
Speaker
because like game wide you know like we talked about if an army's got a thing that lets you move your opponent's turn is really strong that's basically from AOS because every unit in the game could do that once. And heresy like reiterated on it with the reaction when it launched as well. Yeah so I think it's a really good game though I think arguably the models are a bit better.
00:36:32
Speaker
I think the centerpiece is absolutely odd. They're not really much arguing about that. It feels like they've got a bit more scope of freedom and making monsters. And I love monsters and I love walking robots. You also have women in it as well without the Daily Mail reporting on it.
00:36:46
Speaker
I'm out, I'm out. Door is a cane? What? So yeah, so I'm currently building and painting, I've got nothing to hand, it's on the shelf behind me, I can't believe I have to get up. I'm currently building Blade to Corn, so people know where I'm at with this, and I'm going to play Blade to Corn, and people are going to be like, but Vince, it's not the aggressive melee armies that you enjoy, I know. The damage output is lower than Orcs, which is probably going to be my second army if I get round to second one.
00:37:07
Speaker
But they're like a control army. You're talking about blue magic earlier. Blades of corn in the current edition, fuck those walking black in the next edition, but in the current edition they can force enemy units to move towards you. They can pull you into combat like scorpion from Mortal Kombat or edgy shit. Yeah, all sorts of crazy cool control stuff. I love that. The fear is, so for those that don't know,
00:37:30
Speaker
Oh, four versions coming in summer. We started to get all the data slate stuff, which is kind of like collating it all into one, kind of like 40k. Yeah, they're what is known as indexing. So they're basically all the books that you bought in the bin. All right. Three PDFs day one, and then we're going to release books every three months. You just can't be surprised anymore. When anyone ever complains about this, I'm like,
00:37:49
Speaker
It does suck, but it's just so it's part of a hobby at this package passages to buy a book you use once and then it gets Everyone was there roasting to glasses. Oh, man, the index war hammer 8th edition was so cool And now they're doing it for every game and it was like what wait a minute
00:38:05
Speaker
Wait a minute, that's not my nostalgia. It is fun on day one though, when 10th edition dropped and everyone got like new rules on day one, that was a very exciting time. It was very exciting, yeah. I kind of wish all rules dropped at once and we just, fuck it, just change the army rules once a year, all drop at once. Oh mate. And for free, that'd be, I think that'd be fucking crazy. It would be crazy, yeah. Imagine the content cycle and everything. But then it, but also because of what, I think less so they'd sing while we were 40k, just get figured out in like three months, just like it did. And then that's it. Yeah, that's why you change it once a year.
00:38:36
Speaker
We all play the best army of the game because we all know what it is. We know there's no characters coming out for nine months. Everyone would be playing this. I see what you mean. I see what you mean. So you have to do data slates. You'd have to do like patches. Look, from playing a lot of League of Legends and StarCraft and shit back in the day, I think patching is good. And same with digital card games to the most extent. It's good to patch out things, ban things, change things around. I think Fortnite care better. That's kind of a different episode. Anyway.
00:39:00
Speaker
So, they're revamping and simplifying, simple not simplified or whatever the fucking stupid term they use for temperature. They're doing like, what is it? Oh, modular gaming. Modular gaming is a catchphrase to this one. They're basically, they go, right, you start with box, move it face, slot that one in, round, round hole, round box.
00:39:22
Speaker
etc. Then you're adding the shooting phase and etc. And then if you want to play the real game, you have to play everything all the same time. Like general's handbook. I thought Modula was like attaching chunks of rules on it. I thought the base game you still move, shoot and fight, right? Yeah, but they're calling Modula. They've like split it up into like phases.
00:39:40
Speaker
So I think that's more to do with like the base game is you got your three phases in your army rules Yeah, and then from there you can have the generals handbook you can add your codex eventually That's how it's always been anyway. It's actually this anytime. It's all marketing fucking
00:39:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's just it's a complete bollocks that isn't important and maybe it'll sell to some casuals The important point I want to get to is that they're fucking squatting things again, but they are wholesale removing shit from the game So beast men are gone the entire but then they got a book and a sculpt recently. They got a character Yeah, so it was January last year. They got a new character the Beast Lord Less than 12 months ago. They got a Beast Lord and then
00:40:33
Speaker
They had faction terrain when they first like when they first started doing that in like a OS 2 or maybe a s1 They got endless spells when they started doing that in a OS 2 that was a suppose a cool thing
00:40:45
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, so so they're basically unlike other factions like for example ogres who have had nothing they've had I think they've had one character maybe since they came out in a West B-Spend felt like even though they hadn't had like a huge range update or anything They felt like more supported with like the faction terrain the endless bells the new character last year When did the in the spells land? I think that was a OS 2 if I remember correctly because that was Okay, I was about to be in comparison. They sound have seem to have the same amount of supporters custodies. I
00:41:14
Speaker
Yeah. But that's not true, because Kestonia's got one character in this edition and one character in the last edition. Yes. They're currently 100% more support than Beastman ever had. So that's not a good comparison. Okay. So within the last six years, it was like not within the last three, but before that. So like four to six years ago, they got endless spells and terrain, I believe, altogether.
00:41:33
Speaker
Sure. And they got a book last edition and everything. They just didn't have anything. But yeah, like Ogres have had just books, basically. And they are an AOS faction through and through. They're staying in the game. But B-Spend felt more supported and then have been, like, gone. They've basically got to kick the arse back into Old World.
00:41:48
Speaker
Yeah, but you say this, but there's an argument now that if that happened to beastmen and they got morseable and ogres, ogres aren't exactly exempt from this. No. And like, and also I know it should happen at the beginning of the edition, but as we see with 10th edition, if we should show it to 40k again, we're good about between the two to talk about this. Yeah. They're just like all books, instead of dropping out of all, um, all the forward towards the beginning of the edition, every book that comes out that's dropping, uh, both forward one and non-forward. It will come to more about the org stuff in a second.
00:42:14
Speaker
So yeah, so like it's a bit, it's a bit strange. And I think people are a lot of people, understandably, a lot of people are upset because Beastmen are a popular faction because they have like a cool, very unique range. And they're iconic. They're actually an iconic part of this is certainly going to come back to me and talk about the Marines at the end, but they're an iconic part of Warhammer.
00:42:30
Speaker
Yeah, and the right iconic part of the the setting right now because I most of the setting is because I don't know how much you play a West but essentially like each handbook and like the handbooks essentially push the narrative of the what's happening in the in the law And then I know I know a lot of people have complaints about a OS law It's very thin, but I feel like they're trying to move in the right direction But like we've just had like been in the real thing within they mean it's not 40k was like 15 bucks raised a month Yeah, pretty much
00:42:57
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it feels quite nebulous and thick to a new starter. It's just not 40k with nonsensical amounts of shit. I think because 40k has been very consistent, whereas AOS is kind of like essentially a mini redesigns every couple of years because they had a direction change. Because essentially at the beginning, it was like Mortal Kombat. It was like you get your realm gates, you just pop through into another into another world type deal. And now it's kind of like that. Yeah. So it's kind of like that, but not really. But because they're like rebuilding it. So they're just basically got like it's essentially it's in another city. OK, cool.
00:43:27
Speaker
But yeah, it does feel messy. I don't really know what the fuck's going on. Yeah, but it was setting the realm of beast. Who knows? Yeah. So yeah, again, it's just, again, direction change. I think a lot of what this and the law comes down to, but they're in the realm of beast. They've got these like giant dragon esque bone giant things just appearing out of nowhere. The, I can't wait to have a more crond, crond spine, the big, all those competitive staple.
00:43:50
Speaker
Yeah, so they were obviously insane. We could get into rules, they're going to change, but they were insanely good. There's a period where every army had to play one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, which I think is not a good place to be for your game. Yeah. Well, there's the realm of beasts and they don't, the beast better mentioned and they don't release any more models or release one beast. They kick him out of the game. They should have made a canonical. They should have gone to the realm of beasts and just like killed them all. I said there's only about 15 left now, so off you go.
00:44:14
Speaker
And then it was just about end times, because when they first killed fantasy and brought ARS in, that was a canonical in-canon event, right? End of times. People don't know they literally ended the world. It's a really cool idea. Apocalyptic event happened. And then we were like, by the way, this actually kills your game and we're starting again and everyone's like, oh shit. So the problem was, again, I won't do it too long, but the problem was is they released loads of stuff for fantasy for the end times of like five sets of books. Loads of new models and they just weren't actually
00:44:44
Speaker
Yeah. Put them on rounds now. Put them on rounds now. So let me put it, that was relevant to this conversation, though, because that was them squatting the entire fucking, not only a setting, but a game. Yeah. They've now brought back many years later. And they brought it back to be somewhere that they can push things out of AOS into for some reason. Yeah. So beastmen are going to AOS. We know that for certain. Yeah. And then they're also cutting. So bone splitters are like the old school savage orcs. That's the guys running boars. And they used to have, I hate using this term, but they used to have spear checkers. I think they were literally called. They are literally called spear checkers.
00:45:13
Speaker
okay they still are which itself is a here we go we're gonna go it's soy here but it is generally a problem it's a thousand percent sorry i agree yes yes exactly so we've got savage octopus which i thought were already a thing that i wanted to collect orcs and aos but i'm never going to collect the savage ones because the names are a bit wonky and it's a very yeah very much a like caricature of like this of savage less civilized land i don't like that it's a bit it's very very dated
00:45:37
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So they do maybe an update. That's something you said before we started recording like our bones. Yeah. The thing is, is yeah, because in the orcs and goblins section of the old world, ravaging hordes book, they are all those units are still there. Yeah. So traditional names as well.
00:45:52
Speaker
We're going to make... Well, that's how you attract the fantasy players by including all of the racism still. Anyway, for people who don't know what's happened here, again, I'm just trying to make sure that everyone can be on the same page. Fantasy has been brought back, being called the Old World. In some ways, I kind of like it to being Horace Harrison to 40K is what Old World is to... Exactly that.
00:46:13
Speaker
it feels like 40k and age sigma are kind of like the entry games like i mean you can i can say kill team etc the entry games but these are like the games that will be pushed and then when you deepen it or your nostalgia because that's a lot of it what it is you might get into the old world or you might get into horror series it's not really like uh
00:46:32
Speaker
It's the expert game system. The rules are old. There's like updates of rules from years ago. And in both games cases, a load of the shit is fine cast or resin. And thus it's also a pain in the ass to model. Yeah, it's so strange. It's so strange because obviously like, because Age of Sigmarv is built on fantasy and then they've basically taken those armies and the models and put them on rounds and then eventually updated them.
00:46:55
Speaker
There's a quite an interesting one because obviously like night goblins are called Gloop Spy Gits, right? And they're like the little goblins with little like cloaks and little spears and whatever. They've obviously had new Snarlthang Riders, which are like the new goblins riding wolves. And they basically replace a really old kit. Well, in the old world, they've actually bring you back the old kit. It's just nostalgia.
00:47:19
Speaker
I say that like I'm being dismissive. It's not like two years ago. I think that actually I was full of squares. Let's help again. He's so weird. In comparison to magic is that they keep printing even new cards in old borders because people like myself, which is fine. But I guess in the magic scenario, everything is printed reasonably regularly in the GW scenario. Here's like a wedge of tangent. They can't keep anything in stock because they make too much shit.
00:47:43
Speaker
And they're like, oh, we're just going to re-release all these old kits. What would be really funny is that old world kit will probably be available, probably in abundance, because they seem to have oversold it to stores. The store's selling with stuff at discount now. I saw Goblin Gaming with 30% discount on all old world stuff last weekend.
00:47:58
Speaker
I'm like, I think they've got too much stuff. Anyway, meanwhile, the new AOS models will probably be out of stock for eight months because you just aren't producing them because they don't have factories. It's so strange because like the old models, they're not like old sculpts that they've been like remoulded. They are the same moulds because a big complaint of mine when I got the Tomb Kings box and the Bretonnian box is all the mould slips are all awful. They're really, really bad.
00:48:19
Speaker
Are they the same kind of, explain a mould to our audience then. So basically, when they make models, they essentially, for lack of better, I can't think of it, they make a mould of it and they obviously pour plastic in it and then they let it cool down and then they open it and then you get a mould. Quite literally injection moulding as the term is called. Yeah, so.
00:48:37
Speaker
So what happens is as these uh molds get used and used they obviously get worn down now it takes a long time because they're made of like steel or titanium or whatever they're made of a hard metal they but essentially what happens is like uh plastic will start seeping out of like where it's worn on the edges because obviously the sharp edges have to be slightly rounded but then they round it gets grown ground down over time so essentially what happens is is plastic starts seeping out and mold slips
00:49:02
Speaker
It's not really technically mold slips with plastic because they won't slip but in resin is a big one where you mold literally comes apart or is it quite together properly and then it essentially loads of material escapes and on the plastic ones it's a bit weird because obviously like it's made of metal it should have really slipped so what's happening is is the mold is that old and that overused and they're very expensive to replace but this is a big company
00:49:27
Speaker
The plastic is just getting out so you like you like have like a spear with like just like a big sheet of Plastic up the side of it. He's supposed to cut off But it's like not like not like a little baby or just like a little strip is literally like sheets of plastic There was a skeleton and it was just a chain and it did have my beard because he just had plastic sticking out all around it I was like what the hell is going on and
00:49:50
Speaker
But it's because the models are like, the models have been used for like 25 years. It's not new molds, they haven't like recast the molds. They are literally, look out of the box, back into service.
00:50:00
Speaker
Because the other really interesting thing from an old anecdote before I got back into Warhammer, so I used to always go into Warhammer shops and look at all the models and be like, oh fuck, I really want to get back into those. I was so into it as a kid. And I'll never forget one conversation where I was like, well, I don't really care about the Lord of the Rings stuff. And this GW employee said to me, and bearing in mind, games, workshops, store employees can talk a lot of shit sometimes. But this guy said, no matter how much you dislike Lord of the Rings or the list of Lord of the Rings game, it basically bankrolled the production of all the molds and the expensive stuff that allowed like fantasy to continue existing and then into AOS and similar, because he was saying how
00:50:27
Speaker
Lord of the Rings helped them out at a time when GW was struggling. The exact truth that I don't know. So it's really interesting to think that. It sounds legitimate because obviously it was a very small company. It's only been on the rise. I don't think Lord of the Rings would have been detrimental to that at the time. No, no, I think it probably did coast them through difficult times. But nowadays obviously 40k gangbusters money and it's just too
00:50:48
Speaker
They've got all this money coming from other places and they're still not replacing those moulds that this guy was saying, well, those moulds wouldn't exist to me 10 years ago. And those moulds still exist in the same capacity because they haven't replaced them. It's probably one of the reasons that a lot of Forge World stuff gets thrown to the wayside. Because there's been an argument for a long time that Forge World moulds are breaking down and damaged and they can't replace them. Because Forge World is made in a classic way because they essentially use silicon moulds, which is something that you can actually do at home.
00:51:15
Speaker
from my understanding this could be wrong but from what I've been told or asked or found out is essentially what they did was is they had like big round models that they made loads of models on but the it wasn't like okay for a prime example was like a Trappling Dreadnought that was like super popular kit a while ago
00:51:34
Speaker
but they they had like they didn't have like a mold for a chaplain dreadnought they had a mold for a chaplain dreadnought with this kit and this kit and this kit on this huge mold that they did all at once so when mold when kits randomly went last chance to buy and it seemed nonsensical that like this dreadnought this random chaos unit this random orc unit went off sale all at the same time it's because they were all on the same mold and that mold was being
00:51:56
Speaker
dying and they weren't going to replace them. Because it was just, it wasn't like, here's a space brewing mould. It was, here's a mould we made in January. I did not know this. This is an interesting point, because it's the same logistical, it's a similar logistical issue to why certain characters only get sold alongside other units and other characters, because they're all on the same model and sprue. Yeah. And they don't want to repurpose, I don't know, the Dark Apostle or whatever it is into its own thing. Yeah. That's a bad example, because I think it is its own thing. But any of the shit you get in the Star Boxes always come with the, the, the Call of Deck Core. The Pops, and the Pops Walkers is a big one.
00:52:25
Speaker
It has half a plague marine in the box of pox walkers does it really I bought my second-hand pre-built So yeah, so they came in a starter box and then they put me in a separate box But they essentially use all the same sprues But one of the sprues has half a plague marine on it because it came with a death guard Dark Imperium So
00:52:47
Speaker
It was like, what's this holy man's food for? Yeah, we can't give them a free half a marine, they gotta buy them. Yeah, but if you're ever in a Death Guard Facebook group, or a Death Guard Reddit, every three months, maybe, you're that new post, like, what's this half marine for?
00:52:59
Speaker
Huh, is that why they actually come in sevens? It's nothing to do with the blessed number It's actually because three of the other plane Marines were on the character sprue in the box booker sprue. Uh, I don't I don't know I don't because because the plane Marines are different kit now the one in the boxes But yeah, the pops walkers are the same models but um, but yeah, so forge world
00:53:20
Speaker
Silicon resin. Silicon mold, sorry. And again, allegedly, they had like loads of random kits, essentially. We've made all these models, they're all getting cast in January, so we'll cast them all together. And that's why they randomly disappeared. When I bought my war boss on war bike, which we're coming to, talk about the Ork cuts in a second, I bought him ages ago. I never finished paying them, because he went to Legends, came back, then went to Legends again. This is the second time round of being cut from the game. Legends, by the way, people at home, is stuff that's still available to buy, or might be available to buy, not all of it is. Like legacy content.
00:53:49
Speaker
Yeah, they're gonna have rules that never get updated, so you can play them casually on a table, but they won't be pointed and they won't be balanced. And thus, they basically stop and just play. They will have points, but they won't address it. It's just like, here's the points what they are now. Okay, well, they still have points, because I think, didn't last station any given power level or some shit.
00:54:06
Speaker
Now they now they do point so currently if something goes to legends it has a data sheet it has it says we'll have a legends on it It has a points value how long that will stay through additions. No idea Because obviously like you can play it now but in like well They changed the legend sheets on the ninth attempt move over because they had to write
00:54:25
Speaker
Yeah, they did. But I guess on the 11th move over, will these things have sheets? Will they? Will it be the same? But the point before we get on to too far is that when I got my war boss inside his arm socket, he had just a bit of like, it looked like silicon mold. Yeah, a little bit of like green or red or something like that. Yeah, so he, I had one of the ones that obviously destroyed one of their molds or taken something off and had to, so no wonder they decommissioned this shit because they all flew on the bar.
00:54:47
Speaker
because you get bits on your model and that's where the mould slip and the resin starts leaking out where it shouldn't be and then that's where you get like flash or like mould lines or mould slips or whatever. And with resin it's way worse because you're like trying to get some of the resin shit off. Yeah and also like well and also you just
00:55:02
Speaker
I'm just facing this as fucking terrible. But anyway, the Beastmen god, Sabajort's god, and then the really brutal things, I'm sat here like making my blades of corn, and I'm like, there's no way I touch these, these are like one of the four chaos gods, they're not gonna squat a god, right? And these guys were in a starter set, and they're one of the main villains for even first and second edition.
00:55:20
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. There's no way it is it gone, right? And then they're just calling down the article of what's going, and they scored a load of first edition sigma rings, the main faction in the theory, and a load of second. I think one of those, they scored all of it. They scored all of the wizard shit from second.
00:55:37
Speaker
Yeah, so that basically I think it was like 40 kits from Sigma. There's a post by Warhammer Weekly Tom I think his name is who did a post it was like a picture like a piece of paper with every kit on and then a piece of paper with every kit that's not with the new ones being removed and it's literally like 60% of the range is left.
00:55:57
Speaker
That is insane, because you're the poster boy of action. Just to clarify, it's six years old, these models, maximum. Yeah, exactly. That was the point I was coming to say. The poster boy, this is stuff from start I said that people are bought into, thinking start never gets killed. You've heard of that.
00:56:11
Speaker
Soul Wars is like one of the box sets. That's why they lodge, yeah. That was the second or third edition version of Dominion, right? Second edition, yeah. What was the third edition called? Oh, that was Dominion. That was Dominion, yeah. So this stuff's in starter sets, it's not that old. It's really quite new in the grand scheme of things. And they're just like fucking squirting it off, which leads to the question of like, what is actually safe and what is actually sacrosanct, if you'll excuse the pun.
00:56:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's a bit strange. You can sit here and go, it's six years. It's not actually six years. It's less than six years because it'd be six years in June that the starter box came out and then all the kits came out like three, four months after with the first battle tome. So it's like probably just over five years old, some of these models. Now, ultimately they're not out of date yet. They're out of date as of the new edition.
00:57:00
Speaker
And that's a good point, we should highlight that. They have gave everyone a 12 month window, which is way better than just going, sorry, this is all gone. It's way better than releasing a load of rules or showing the rules for what are going to make glott tags good. And then some dude buys us like ยฃ180 worth of glott tags on eBay to then find out the next week that glott tags are going. We're going to come back in a second. But giving 12 months window is good.
00:57:20
Speaker
Yeah, so 12 months they'll still be even beastmen even bone splitters even the storm castle referencing all will have legitimate Competitive rules for one year and then they will go to legends Which is more than they've done before and which will go on to with orcs But like it's still a bit like like it's still sour taste, you know, it's like, oh, yeah I got a whole year to play this army that it's like a ticking time bomb and ultimately it'll be
00:57:44
Speaker
won't be playable in competitive events and also it'll like all the time that you spent painting it building it is wasted and then you're like well at least I'll get some money back for it but ultimately the demand for models that don't aren't competitive is a lot lower than like something that's really good. Well I do think that we're gonna see a influx, not an influx, that's not the word, we're gonna see a rise in posts on Facebook groups of like hey getting endangered sigma, I mean I don't forget those groups as much as I do 40k ones. I bought this bundle on eBay of Stormcast and like sorry none of those are legal.
00:58:14
Speaker
Excuse me, what? Because there's always this thing in Warhammer that models are kind of meant to be forever, compared to Magic, where the main competitive or the main gaming sphere in Magic is meant to be standard, but things rotate. They don't have true cycles like Magic does, you know? Yeah, and rules kind of soft rotate stuff in a way, so I'm not completely ignorant to that fact.
00:58:34
Speaker
But the idea that now morals aren't forever, and models are expensive, like you spend time building and painting them, which isn't totally wasted. I build and paint stuff that I have no intent of ever playing with, because I just want to model and build and paint there, because that's part of the hobby. But the idea that there'll be things that you just can't play on the tables anymore really bugs me. Especially when it's stuff like the poster boy faction losing all of its models from last edition starter set. That's what's wild, it's the poster boy faction. But I think the reason- Nothing is safe. I'm scared they're going to squat some of the corn stuff.
00:59:03
Speaker
that I'm not making it up, I'm like, fuck, what are they just... I mean, some of them would be countsats, right? So if they, if they squatted Reavers or whatever the cultists are called for plugs, Blade of Corn or whatever, and then they've released a new kit and caught something else, which is kind of what they're probably going to do with a lot, at least half this Stormcast stuff, to get revamped in some way, you can just play the old stuff countsats.
00:59:22
Speaker
Yeah, because they've announced Liberators are obviously going to Legends, but we know Liberators are getting new kit because they've shown it off. And the Oh, have they shown the kit or was it in the trailer? No, they've shown the Liberator model. Oh, I think they showed the whole kit. I've seen the show. Is that the wind ones, right? No, the Liberators of the storm, the shield and hammer guys.
00:59:38
Speaker
Oh, yeah, and the other one is the the flying man prosecutors. Yeah, so they're prosecutors So anything that said the trailer is likely getting a new kit and one of them being the prosecutors Which are the hammers and wings which did look a bit weird because they were like super chunky armor Wings and hammers and they they are very very like I'll I'll bank a lot of money on those getting new but it's fucking stupid to remove them from the game
01:00:00
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. I'm like, you should have legends.
Model Transition and Player Concerns
01:00:03
Speaker
And then also these are going off sale, which I think would be fine. It is quite literally Primaris again. Yeah. They're like, no assault marines, assault intercessors, assault marines, scout squads. But I'm still playing my old scouts. I need to base change them. And I'm playing, like, Beaky, Mark 6, Heresy guys and jump packs. I built them for Heresy. They're my assault intercessors. And no one gives a fuck.
01:00:27
Speaker
There's no comparison. There's no confusion. Cause it's a guy, it's a space with a jump pack. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Assault squad greater legends. And then they're bringing out assault breeds. Well, it's assault. Yeah. That example is exactly the same. They're doing this a lot, which is so fucking stupid. So like, so it's just the lack of communication with like stuff like that. It just feels like it feels worse. It looks worse for you that you're getting rid of like 40 kits when actually you're getting rid of like 30 kits instead of a marine being redone.
01:00:56
Speaker
Well, they did say that some of the Stormcast are going back, and they hinted at Skaven, because Skaven got a lot of stuff squatted too, right? Yeah, for example, their clan rats are going to Legends, or being so, not long the same. But then they revealed another clan rat model! Is it like the people that are moving things to Legends, and the people that are making the new models just don't talk to each other? Is that the issue? It must be.
01:01:16
Speaker
It's such a fucking weird situation. So it's actually not as bad and doom and gloom as it seems for some of the factions. I say for beast men who are just completely fucked. Yeah, so like we Stormcast is everything that was magic with a robe is essentially not coming back, which is obviously is a lot of kits for the poster boy. Yeah. So first edition stuff is getting fixed. Essentially that is just first born into Primaris. Pretty much. Yeah. I think they've had like a, I think I said this a few times, but they've had like a design change. Like they've like gone, actually this doesn't fit anymore. So we're going to redo it.
01:01:44
Speaker
but then you don't have to squat them you don't have to remove their rules you just make new models well they're making rules for them and then they're just going actually after 12 months you can't be bothered to balance them that's essentially what they're saying they're saying because at the beginning there are new rules that go away in 12 months but they're also going to make a new kit with new rules that are going to be called like prosecutor prime or whatever the fuck they use a terminal or they might just go yeah these are prosecutors they might do that but like for a lot of the stuff that isn't getting redone they are writing the rules for it they just essentially they just can't be bothered to balance them
01:02:14
Speaker
Which is understandable when there's so much to deal with. So that is a point that I didn't write down on the show notes. It's bloat. The games get bloated. 40k is worse than the rest of them. Let's talk about... We're going to come on to Orcs next, but before that, the marine codex, how many sheets was it before they squatted like first born dreads and shit? Like 200 and something? I don't think it's 200, but it's probably... Was it 180? 190? It is somewhat crazy, yeah.
01:02:38
Speaker
No, I'm not saying what it was. Before they moved bikes, first-born dreads... Oh, it might be touching the 100-200, yeah. Yeah, they moved bikes, first-born dreads, a couple of tanks, multiple characters... All the Forge World stuff. All the Forge World stuff, Lance... So you like 40k from Forge World at least.
01:02:55
Speaker
So there's two things here I want to talk about. First of all, is removing truly iconic shit. I'm going to get annoyed now, right? I'm going to get visibly angry, right? So let's get the leviathans back out. No, no, no. I'm not talking about leviathans. I love leviathans and contemptors, but I don't see them as quintessentially like an iconic war hammer. They are heresy stuff that I think is neat. I'm talking like when you remove fucking land speeders and box dreads. They're the ones where I'm just like, they should be sacred. This is my female custodies, right?
01:03:23
Speaker
This is your Ace Fan 3. Yeah, this is my Ace Fan 3. This is that I think that I think the investment firms that I've invested into GW are purposefully removing box thread knots for some of the various reasons. I think that's just the venerable dread, I think. I think venerable dread, which thematically makes sense that the old, old, oldest of the dread knots are now venerable because no one's getting put into the box treads anymore because first born when they die they're probably like,
01:03:52
Speaker
Only in death's G.N., not for them. No, they nearly died. Then they put them through the Primaris phase, which... The Rubicon that's meant to have a downside. They almost die again, and then they get put into a Redemptor instead. Drag them through the river, that's taken from a Redemptor. Yeah. So the venom will exist, and I'm not the Librarian, Dreadnought exists, and the Death Company, Dreadnought exists and stuff. Yeah, but they'll probably get me replaced as well, the Librarian. Which I'm kind of excited for, but at the same time, like, you don't have to remove the boxy, but then the point is...
01:04:18
Speaker
I want my land speeders, my dreadnoughts to exist because they are so important to what Hammer looks like as a game, but what the fuck would you do with a bloated book like Smirn? I think the big problem was with that in particular, is they went, at the start of the edition, they went, or like a month before the edition, they went, all of these Forge World kits, like Leviathan's Contemptors, etc, are going to Legends.
01:04:38
Speaker
And then after the game started, after everyone started buying stuff, playing their index or whatever, then they said, land speeders, scouts, and the fire cannons are going to legends. It was like the double whammy, which was really painful. If they said at the start of the edition, by the way, all of these kits are going, really ripped the band-aid off, really painful, it'll heal in a day.
01:04:57
Speaker
But it was the fact that they ripped the Band-Aid off, waited two months, and then did it again was really brutal. Because the argument people were making was like, it's inevitable that Firstborn are going to get cycled out. So again, just to help people who are newer here, I'll come across some magic. Basically, Firstborn are the original Marines that were not true scale. And instead of just true scale, like I'm arguing that you do with the AOS stuff, is just make new models and use the same rules. They're like, no, no, no, there's a lore reason. They're now better, stronger, faster, taller.
01:05:22
Speaker
How do you resell Space Marines to someone who's already got six days? You'd call them primaris and give them a different gun. Give them a better data sheet. There's a period of Warhammer where all the first one had shit sheets and all the primaris had good sheets. And then they started to go back on that and make all the first one also good. It was just a mess. So then they're like...
01:05:39
Speaker
So come 10th edition, they squat, like you said, the Forge World stuff. So the Forge World stuff is mainly, almost exclusively, stuff for the Horace Heresy game that got given rules of 40K as well. So I want to talk about that in a moment about siloing and separating games.
01:05:54
Speaker
So they remove all that, and they're like, okay, it looks like the first born are safe. And they're like, uh-uh, sorry, lol. Get fucked. And I'm like, how, why not do it all in one go? So when people are like, well, you're not expecting this, I'm like, no, because they squatted a load of stuff, then squatted a load of stuff a few months later. Yeah. It's a lack of communication that's brutal.
01:06:12
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And also like when you get some land speeders and the boxy dreadnoughts and then the, so when you get rid of assault marines and add assault intercessors with jet packs, they are a clear, I can play like for like, I can play counter, I can play proxy. Rules wise, they're almost identical, except the new ones are slightly worse. There's a slight rules change with how their hammer of wrath works, but it's not crazy, but it is the same. I thought the intercessor ones were better, the hammer of wrath was better than what the other assault marines used to do.
01:06:39
Speaker
If someone saw no play outside of being really cheap, if I remember correctly, the assault marines essentially when they made a charge, you roller dice every model in the unit, it might be the other way round, but essentially the change was, is one of them was roller dice every model in your unit on a full push new model wound, and then it became every model that makes engagement range, does the same role.
01:07:01
Speaker
I think the new ones are not engagement range anymore, because a lot of those things have moved. The orc thing has. What are you looking at? So they can count as. But then when you get your beautiful, classic- It's within engagement range now, so it used to be the old way. Oh fuck, I thought it was them around. Oh, he scold me! I got him on law last week, a lot of two weeks ago, and now he's got me on rules. Fuck. And now for people who can't see, he's licking his tongue between his open fingers like he's eating my ass. Right, anyway.
01:07:26
Speaker
So you can count as tweens, but the boxy-dressing land speeders, my land speeders aren't on my shelf. Yeah, they're just wrong. Because obviously they've essentially replaced them with the new land speeders. Storm speeders. I'm like seven times bigger. Yeah, and the Thunderfyre cannon was essentially replaced by the turret thing that no one uses. The servo turret. Servo turret. Essentially a Thunderfyre cannon. Have you noticed that Mikey doesn't know the name of any of the units that aren't competitively viable?
01:07:55
Speaker
So that's not true. One of those doors is actually really good for a bonus AP. Anyway, so like they've essentially replaced them, what spiritually replaced them, but they don't fill the same role. They're completely different size. They do different things on the tabletop, especially like the Thunderfire cannon one, because that was like an indirect turret. And now it's like a last catadora auto cannon, which is obviously neither of those are indirect. Yeah, they're not even rightly comparable. I am being old man, shouting at clouds, but I just believe
01:08:25
Speaker
They are it's like I said, it's the woke investors But I think like the box red nor walking out on the dawn of all intros is one of the most fucking iconic things for Warhammer ever and they're like, you know what? We'll just remove that from the game. I mean
01:08:41
Speaker
That iconic moment was like 20 years ago. Yeah, I know. It was like 2005. I'm fucking old, dude. We are old, yeah. I'm the oldest man ever. That's what got me to Warhammer,
Game System Changes and Community Impact
01:08:50
Speaker
that trailer. That's why I started playing that game. That was it. But yeah, we got to remember that that little dreadnought was 20 years ago. That iconic thing that they don't, don't reference ever at all anymore. They've got, they don't care about it. The company's been sold four times.
01:09:05
Speaker
Has it been sold four times? I'm pretty sure Sega just sold all their $40,000. Oh, you mean Velik and Dawn of War, you mean? Yeah. Sorry, yeah, yeah. Have they made Games Workshop? No, no, no, no. The company that made the game, my apologies. Yeah, yeah, Velik, Velik Entertainment, yeah. Well, they botched Dawn of War 3. Oh, that's a whole different episode that I have not very strong opinions on because I don't really care. Okay, so the soloing thing, real quick. We're going to do this quickly and then we're going to get onto Orcs that we've been talking about getting onto for like two hours, right?
01:09:30
Speaker
They seem to have this obsession right now, so say again. That's got engagement, keep people listening. The Ork thing is coming guys! They're talking about Orks, they're talking about Orks. Like Doja R. Martin talks about winter's coming eventually. We also haven't talked, we're not going to talk about castellas at all. Castellas got done dirty, maybe that's an episode another time.
01:09:46
Speaker
Um, they just want to separate out kits to have rules and only one game I don't know what they fuck they keep doing it So like oh these factions that gives me spend rules for aos and old world We're gonna move them only to old world And then we've got all these heresy kids that we did in plastic that everyone bought cuz they're calling 40k And then we're just gonna squawk them out of 40k make them only playable in heresy So I have a lot of units that I probably never play with again and they keep doing it and doing it and doing it but in reality Personally, I think giving kits more modularity and multi-purpose makes them more desirable and more likely to be bought
01:10:16
Speaker
white yeah if i can buy a necromander gang and play it as a nursery i'm more likely to do that yeah the one army that you can still do that with is demons in 40k and age of sigma which does make me wonder if they're gonna start trying to yeah because with the old world obviously that return that is based on
01:10:34
Speaker
a law set that they essentially killed off and rebooted and there's loads of armies in that law that they've essentially brought back but there's very relevant players that are kind of left to the wayside and they have what's known as legacy rules so essentially
01:10:49
Speaker
Legends what for the old world they call them legacy armies. This is the demon army, right? Yeah, the demons Vampire counts because they've been redone in age Sigma saw black grave lords. They've had an and Essentially a flesh-eater course. They've kind of like developed so far that they don't really resemble what they used to be Skaven Skaven way are a huge like
01:11:12
Speaker
essentially plot point in all of fantasy and they've been been left to the wayside as legacy and essentially they've kind of anything that's a major sigma that has been redeveloped has been called legacy and anything that's in a sigma that like uh is like is like beastmen for example hasn't really been redeveloped has been kicked back
01:11:32
Speaker
It's so fucking stupid. Why would you not want to give your players? Yeah, so it's very odd and again like with 40k so the heresy units can't be used in 40k and a lot of the forward world stuff is... The reason for it is they want people to buy separate armies for second game systems. They do not want someone getting into demons because they can play it in three different game systems.
01:11:49
Speaker
Yeah, that's the cynical view. Ultimately, they're not doing it to help you, it's capitalism. But my argument is, I will buy more kits from other game systems if they're usable in 40K.
01:12:04
Speaker
Yeah, because it makes it more desirable as a consumer, right? You can buy one model and it works in two games, or even works in three games. It's the whole thing of like, it's like, it's a proprietary technology sort of shit. Like, you separate everything out, I mean, you have to buy separate things, like separate cables for Sony gear and shit. It's bollocks, I fucking hate it. But it's like...
01:12:20
Speaker
I was going to say I watched a video from Leonis Wargaming and he was talking about because he used to work at GW and he was like talking what he thinks is happening and I think a lot of it does kind of make sense ultimately it may come down to like balance sheet stuff like when you release a model and it's available and it let's say like let's release a corn model because you love corn a new a new blood there so that's bigger and badder than all the other ones sweet
01:12:46
Speaker
That's cool. You're going to buy that and you're going to use it in three different games when they come to a look at in like investing in that game that they made it for. Let's say they made it intentionally for a sigma, but release rules, everyone, everyone else comes in a sigma box, but it's what you're using 40K. It's confusing as to which which brand is growing.
01:13:03
Speaker
yeah i think i think that's what i might come down to because you look at like for example if you sell five thousand leviathan dreadnoughts you're like whoa 30k vehicles are doing really well let's invest in those well people are just using 40k and they're not going to make rules for that i think that's what you come down it's kind of like
01:13:19
Speaker
how we we got profit and loss for this game we're not gonna we can't like muddy the waters with anything else where ultimately as a consumer you would think they're selling models who cares they're still selling stuff yes but but but even so i i don't doubt that that could not that might not be the actual that's the game theory i think that's it yeah bureaucracy right like just like a bureaucratic bullshit almost like a parrot of the imperium where they don't really know the fuck they're doing yeah
01:13:45
Speaker
But the reality is, GW invest in so many weird specialist games that I don't actually make them as much money as they would like. So, and 40K makes them tons of fucking money. So why not make all this shit playable in 40K, even just with a legend sheet at the very least. Like, I'm talking about like cross compatible, like the fucking, Netcom under has call us squat models. The leagues, here you go, here's a hot take. Leagues of a tan model line fucking sucks. They look like shit, they're boring.
01:14:14
Speaker
Okay. You don't agree? I think it's fine. Fine is not good enough, Mikey. Fine is not what we should aim for. If they get a walking robot, I am gonna shove my dick in it, okay? Where are the helicopters? Where are the trains? They have a walking robot in Necromunda. Exactly! They have so much cool shit in Necromunda. All of the squat models look better. Yeah.
01:14:36
Speaker
Anyway, so why not give them fucking 40k sheets? The games never fucking balanced anyway, but really the crux, the bar is, I do want to complain. You've hit that earlier. I swerved your complaint, but the violins and contemptors should be legally 40k. They should be. Cause they're fucking sick. Even if they're just limited to one again.
01:14:53
Speaker
You know, just say you really have one of each or one single one. That's what they used to do. It used to be a stratagem to bring them in. A relic. Yes, relics of the arcades or whatever. Not long war. That'd be the chaos one score. So I don't know. It's just very strange. And I think it makes me worry about their other side games as well. Because obviously with this squatting of the Big Age Sigma thing, they also announced that they were not going to be selling any of the or removing the war cry war bands.
01:15:20
Speaker
from A to Sigma, which essentially- Yeah, where the fuck are they gonna live? I just bought one of the underworlds of walkway things, because it was like, I got on chief in my shop to get some slaughter priests. Yeah. So even though that unit that they are, because they have a unit in AOS, or next edition, they don't have to be like generic slaughter priests, because I think they're gonna score it all.
01:15:35
Speaker
yeah so like because obviously like they have war cry which is essentially their aos's version of kill team great game by the way one of games where it shots best game rule sets i would say and that's a lot okay i think it's very fun um but like a lot of people buy those to to use them in age of sigma now i think with the dark oath box that they've just released the maraud essentially the marauders update
01:15:58
Speaker
All the infantry they were essentially they the war cry war bands filled the role that their Age of Sigma didn't have was like updated chaos cultists essentially, so they're going away But it makes you wonder like if they're gonna do that in war cry to essentially if this balance that balance sheets Game theory is true of like we have to keep all our products separate so we know what's doing well and what's not and
01:16:20
Speaker
I think they'll start doing the same with kill team as well, because all of these random kill teams, like the Adeptus Arbites, the Henchman, etc, they are... Yeah, they'll go. Yeah, they're a solely kill team in every Imperium list, you know? Because they're cheap inventory, they sit in the back and do nothing.
01:16:39
Speaker
but that makes me worry is the same thing going to happen with those because that's what they don't want people to buy kill team to play 40k they want people to buy kill team which is absurd just get people to buy models because they like the thing that does well yeah again again it's all based on this game theory of like half those killteams won't go because the that enjoy them are like striking scorpions cassicry those for example those ones can't
01:17:04
Speaker
They've already fucked things up. They've already mangled the rules in 10th edition to fit the Kill Team shit. It's like the commando squad in the Orc book. It's like a 10-man squad. They can take a different weapon each to make the unit unplayable on the tabletop, which takes you five minutes to resolve them, 10 minutes to resolve one unit shooting and or fighting. Same with scouts, one sniper rifle, one missile.
01:17:25
Speaker
Well, one missile launcher is normal, but you get a random type rifle gun in there. Yeah, one type of three-book guns, a shotgun and a voket, are a lot easier than one radar pistol, one hookshot, one small dog or whatever. Grappling hook. And then your bomb squig. It's pretty sharp.
01:17:40
Speaker
And one guy's just got a big hammer gun. It's just nonsense. It's absolutely nonsense. And they're also wildly unplayable because you can't play them as five, you can't play them as ten, and so on and so on. So I think anything that feels exclusive to Kill Team that isn't like, we're going to redo a kit from the Codex, like henchmen, like RBTs, et cetera, will probably go to Legends as well. I think their idea was good, but I think they've had this brainwave
01:18:08
Speaker
of like no this is kill team if it doesn't sell well what can the game to be honest they might just do all this for a little while then come 11th edition and 5th edition of aos they're just like fuck it let's open up like this may not be for everyone they realize actually it's okay doesn't sell very well
01:18:23
Speaker
unless people are buying it for 40K, basically. 30K being how it's heresy, for those wondering.
New Ork Codex and Character Removal
01:18:28
Speaker
We spent a lot of this video moaning, and the Ork book is probably actually overwhelmingly positive outside of the squatting that we're about to talk about. So we're gonna really close out the video now, just by getting to the Ork bit, which is that. Orks also.
01:18:39
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Let's do the outfit that we promised. Yeah. Yeah, they squirt. There's quite a lot of shit on the old book a lot of it I don't own I only own the war bike guy in some proxies of some got tanks. But yeah So for reference if you if you don't know so the new walk credits has just come out and It's fucking sick by the way, just to get some positivity on the table. It's a very very strong book. Very very strong. It's deep It's wide like there's like there's multiple ways to play it, which is nice
01:19:03
Speaker
I genuinely believe every single one of those sub factions is playable at a comp event, and you can do well with it. You may not win the event with it, but they're all genuinely quite strong, and quite good, and quite fun, and quite thematic. So, obviously with New Codex, they like to address some units. We kinda expect now it's become the norm that anything that's fine cast, such as main, basically special characters, unless they're gonna get redone, it's likely they're gonna get removed.
01:19:27
Speaker
So, Captain Badrock, the pirate captain with the flash kits, he's been removed. He was a very, very popular choice. He has been removed. And Zagstruck, which is the essentially Stormboy character. There's a few other units in there as well, like the terrain, et cetera, from the Codex that has been removed. And the Nob with Waubana, I think that's four. Yeah, he's gone as well. Yeah, there's Nob on Smash the Squeak has been removed, but he's been now joined back into the Squeak of Boys. Yeah, they continue with that thing of if you get a box of stuff,
01:19:55
Speaker
That's where that stuff goes. Outside, but actually, to be honest, this is an unusual occurrence because normally with like a big mech, they haven't done that and the big mech builds out of the mega knob book. And same with custodians as well. They reduced the character's unit sizes to... It's very pick and choose. It's very pick and choose a lot. Yeah, it's actually not as consistent as I was about to say. It's not. It's not, I'm afraid.
01:20:17
Speaker
So that's like normal, but with Age of Sigmar, they went, here's a big list, everyone was really sad, but here's a list of stuff. With this, they've actually said nothing about the characters of the Codex and not said like, oh, these characters are disappearing, they've said nothing.
01:20:32
Speaker
and then yesterday, not yesterday, the day before, so yesterday as time of filming it's Friday, Thursday we had the points update, and then Wednesday they actually secretly updated the Legends list and added a bunch of Forge World units for Orcs onto- So I believe all Orcs Forge World has gone. There's no Orcs Forge World. Farring the gargantuan squig-off.
01:20:57
Speaker
Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Big big big big big. Okay. So and now this is like a complaint because obviously like I work with GW because I'm a reviewer and like we're like we get like notified of a lot of stuff. But we were like we all got blindsided by it as well. And everyone online is like going the new dread mob thing as keyword grow up vehicle. Right. Yeah. Every time to be hyped to fucking how it's ready for growth sites. And then Wednesday they just went.
01:21:24
Speaker
It was like kind of like slipped a note under the door, but no one noticed and then it was like, oh shit, actually, this has been a beta drop. The note just says, don't believe his lies, picture of Mikey on it. Don't believe his soy, his thousand percent soy. Yeah, so they've put drop tanks as well as a whole bunch of other four drilled stuff.
01:21:42
Speaker
Basically, as I said, everything barring the gargantuan squig off is now not playable competitively. And there was no note. There's no article, no notification. They just went, yeah, we'll not tell anyone. There's a few layers to that. So shout out to Mikey on my Discord. Not you, just Mikey. Mikey and E. Shout out to me, just in case. Just in case.
01:22:01
Speaker
Well, yeah, shout out to you as well. But Mike Gini, who I always pronounce the surname of incorrectly, posted like an image of a guy like being very sad, but he'd spent 180 pounds on like 10 Got Tanks or whatever on eBay. Less than that, all painted up and lovely. And now they're just fucking paperweights. Or they're like, be in pretzel, Got Tanks.
01:22:19
Speaker
To be fair, the problem with this is, you don't go to a being pretzels game to play a thing that's actually very, very strong, because then you're basically going to think you're a dickhead. No, exactly. So Godzanks have no home now. They have literally no home. But on top of that, like, killing off Zadroc. I said killing off. Removing Zadroc and... Zagstruck.
01:22:36
Speaker
Zach Strzok, he's the go-as-your-pack. What was the other one? The pirate dude? Badruk. Catching Badruk. Badruk. Removing them is super interesting because Badruk shows up in a book they released last year, one of the novels. He's like a bit partner and stuff. They're like big orc names. They cut down from having like...
01:22:52
Speaker
Is it four or five named orc characters down to three? Yeah, I think so. Which is so weird for, like, one of the big, like, the biggest, you know, faction of an Eldar perhaps. Yeah. So the strange decision. The most recent, they did that was Necrons. Obviously, when Necrons got their coats in January, they removed three special characters. Nemisaur, Zandrek, Vhargad, Oberyn. So they're like the, the two, the gay Necrons. That's probably why they got rid of him, because they're gay. Is Nemisaur the one from Divine?
01:23:20
Speaker
uh i think so yeah oh wow so if you are front and center of a novel you aren't oh maybe oh is that um is that the other one oricon diviner i can't remember because you're asking me about books but anyway they were they the other guy what's his name the other one uh the other character got removed he was like the lead in the blood of bile which is like a huge uh a huge narrative campaign from late seventh edition and he's also mentioned a lot he was
01:23:50
Speaker
Zandrek, Nimisil Zandrek. I've got Oberyn, there's another one. So, was it three? There's three characters removed. They've got loads of named characters, not too many. But, Trasing, who's obviously important. Oh, it's Trasing and Oricon out of the book. Yeah, so Trasing is still fine. My apologies. Yeah, that makes sense. Trasing is still fine. They didn't get removed.
01:24:15
Speaker
He's still in the book. Okay, so, and Oricon's in there too. But he's now plastic. Oh, Oricon's the one that got the new model. He got the new model, yeah, along with... So actually, if you are at the front of one of the most critically acclaimed novels of your faction, you do get to stay. Yeah, I think that must be it. So that makes me think he's so popular because of the books, or he's getting a new model eventually. Well, the main Orc guy from the books, my brutal butt cunning, he got a model, didn't get put into the codex. He's legends. He got a legendary sheet.
01:24:42
Speaker
So I built one with Penny, I'm going to play him as a warboss. He's so sick, he's such a cool model. Such a cool model, but yeah, like they didn't even make him into the thing. Yeah, so again, again, I don't think there's any consistency. You can't really sit and go all fine castigator and move because they've shown that's not the case. But a lot of the time that is the case.
01:25:00
Speaker
I think removing named characters is similar to the landspeeder dreadnought thing I was saying before. Something's iconic. When the guard came out and Creed went but he's died and his daughter's taken over, that's actually quite a cool development of the story. But then Yorick, Yarrick, sorry, Yarrick just disappeared.
01:25:18
Speaker
Yeah, and the rumors are always coming back. I'm like is he yeah, is he it's just it's just strange It's just right again. It's one of those things like the way they did age of Sigma whilst it was painful I think it was the best way they could have done it of like except except for the units that are getting replaced that was done I did say that I guess separate box these models are going off sale and
01:25:41
Speaker
So you think our org characters should have had 12 months of being able to use the sheet that they give us? No, there should have been an article saying that they're getting removed. 12 months ago. Maybe 12 months ago, maybe three months ago, maybe a month ago, maybe when the org credits got announced, or like say it's going on pre-order next week, or the next day, put an article out saying, just so you know, by the way, BT Dubs.
01:25:58
Speaker
I guess, like, if you are reducing bloat, is it the correct thing to remove a unit or is it the correct thing to remove a character? Is actually removing a character less painful? Imagine if they, like, squatted. Well, I don't think they should remove anything. I think, wow, the Ork book is pretty bloated, too. It's like, I don't know, 60, 70 sheets or something, isn't it? Yeah. But do you move tank busters instead of Zadrog? That seems like not the correct thing to do.
01:26:17
Speaker
I think the safest option is, because we're special characters, they like to give them special, funky rules that represent how they act in the lore.
Speculation on Character Removal and Game Balance
01:26:26
Speaker
They make them feel like the characters on the tabletop a lot. Sometimes it's a bit generic, but sometimes they like to make it feel like that's what they do. For example, like Cal Vaudrego, he can deep strike and he gets plus the charge with deep strikes, because he arrives right where he needs to.
01:26:41
Speaker
So yeah, like removing special characters from a balancing point of view is probably a lot easier because they have a unique funky rule. There's a lot of other rules, a lot of the time overlap, you know, like sticky objectives, which is hold an objective. You can walk off it, but you can't just hold it. It's quite a common rule across multiple units in multiple characters. Whereas like Captain Bad drug going to tap to exclusively flash kits and he does something weird with them. You know, he made them too good.
01:27:07
Speaker
Yeah, so getting rid of like special characters is probably easier. I wonder also if it's overheads, right? Because not only is it fine cast, but like, there's always this argument that they don't make enough money off character models, that's why the character models are so expensive. Yeah. And do you want to buy one of them? I think fine cast is still done by hand as well, similar to Forge World. I don't just make, they make, they make a new fucking six new model lines every month. Make a new.
01:27:28
Speaker
I think the personality of the game gets hindered when you remove iconic shit like box dreads or you remove characters that have been around for years. I'm not even that attached to Zadruk or Badruk or whatever, but I think Yorick going, like Jarek, Yorick, I always get mixed up because of Yorick from League of Legends. Anyway, yeah, I think we're moving him when he's so fucking iconically part of the guard. His gascal trackers foil for fuck's sake and he's gone.
01:27:55
Speaker
yeah yeah it's so strange it's just it's just it's just weird it's frustrating as someone you're like it's like again like yeah again i watched that 52 miniatures video yesterday great video uh he was like i've not even though half he's always been removed the time he spent which army was he playing stormcast uh so like he's he was like the time he spent playing uh painting the army is like hours that he's not really lost because he's enjoyed the time he did it and he's learned a lot sure that's the point i made earlier modeling is still part of the hobby yeah
01:28:24
Speaker
But ultimately, when a lot of your time is spent to paint a model to put it on the table, it's frustrating. It's just frustrating to be like, oh, actually, I'm going to have to proxy a summit. I'm going to have to make sure I can do that. Or even there's not like an equivalent. Well, there's no clear proxies. Then the unit loses that utility. Yeah. Like Captain Badrock. You can't just use him as a war boss. He just has a gun. He doesn't have anything else. You know what I mean? I think he had a little saw blade on his arm.
01:28:50
Speaker
Yeah. Actually, he's probably an example where you just play him as a warboss. I mean, a little jetpack man would be a warboss with a jetpack. Yeah, we don't have six. I guess we'll close out on this. This is a real old menu at Clouds now. Maybe you can point with that from the edge of this cliff as I start screaming that Warhammer has been infiltrated by the work.
01:29:09
Speaker
I just like removing all of the fucking options. Like when they got rid of the Chaos Spacemen lore with a fucking jetpack. Now they reintroduced him again. That's a fucking wild thing. No bike captains right now. He's probably in the pipeline, but we won't have him for years. Why? I get the bloat reduction, but at the same time, 40k is so bloated anyway. I don't know if this bloat reduction really even scrapes the surface.
01:29:36
Speaker
If that makes sense. Is it moving like 15 fucking sheets going to really help the fact that the game has like what? Approaching 500. Do you know what I mean? I don't think I think ultimately I don't think it affects. I don't think it's for the game balance or the game health at all. I don't think I think it's pretty modern stuff. It's probably it's it's like capitalism once again. All right. They can't be bothered to keep making old fine cast stuff because it doesn't have it. It takes a lot to make and it probably doesn't have great markup.
01:30:04
Speaker
I wonder, like, I think I'd prefer if they just
Community Solutions and Proxy Debate
01:30:06
Speaker
sacked it off. We're not gonna make these models anymore. They don't recommend we use third parties, of course. Big shout. I'm loving Station Forge right now. I just ordered 10. Yeah, Station Forge. Mecha Boyz from Station Forge. Would you allow me to PlayStation Forge, Mecha Boyz your event? If they've got the right weapons, yeah.
01:30:20
Speaker
They probably won't, if I'm honest. You always think I'm really horrible with, like... Honestly, every knob in my army has a power claw, but some of them look like they've got saws. Would that upset you? Yeah. I don't have a single saw in the army. I haven't got a single saw in the army. Everyone has a claw. They can take saws. And they take saws.
01:30:36
Speaker
Yes, so they have to be as a source because if you look at it if I look means I'm not doing this on a podcast But if I look across the table, that's a whole lot of these sauce They have to be if I say to you there's not a single saw in my list Everyone has a quite I'm thinking I'm not gonna be asking dude. I'm just so cool
01:30:52
Speaker
No, no, cause you know, it's a definitive statement. If I start matching them, that's more confusing. If I forget, if I'm just looking a glance and I see a metal gun and I'm like, Oh God, a metal gun, better not move my tank. That's a bit different to a saw and a claw for a start. It's the same. It is not the same. If your army is, if I tell you my entire army has the same weapon loadout and you're like, well, one of them has got a saw. That is so fucking ridiculous. Yeah, but you might think it's ridiculous, but it's the end of the podcast.
01:31:23
Speaker
Yeah, but next time you're on, we're going to talk about this. Oiziwe's Broxieing counts as. That's coming next. Winters coming, Broxies are coming everyone. We can talk to the audience about my, I would hold up my actual Gorgonaut and my ATSD. Those look very different to be fair. Anyway, I think that he's not fucking squatting everything. Who cares? There's so much shit in the game. What good comes of it? Nothing. It's just a night. As a consumer, it's a night.
01:31:52
Speaker
Absolutely right. Thank you for watching listening hanging out getting involved Let us know if you what you think of the comment section below if you're listening to on Spotify or anywhere Please let me know even if you just tweet at me that I'd appreciate it. Thank you Mikey for coming on your pluggables People tell you my me hear you saying that everything's got to be wizzy wig you fucking Anyway, I'll stop walking about YouTube else on Mikey on Twitter and
01:32:17
Speaker
I tweet hot takes all the time. It's a thousand percent soy and I have guaranteed guaranteed minimum Edges over and it's even worse of YouTube. I see Monday Wednesdays and Fridays and I put videos out regularly Yeah, all right. That's it. That's the end of the pod. Thanks for watching. We'll see you soon. Bye