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BONUS (5b): Going Deeper With Pastor Chuck Schlie
206 Plays4 years ago
In this bonus episode, Jill Devine sits down with Laura Fleetwood and Chuck Schlie to ask the questions she had while listening to Episode 5.
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Normal Goes A Long Way is brought to you by Messiah St. Charles: https://messiahstcharles.org/
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Transcript
Jill Devine's Faith Journey Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
The following podcast is a Jill Devine media production. Christianity has become known for judgy people, strange words, ancient stories, confusing rules, and a members only mindset. This is why I stayed away from the church for so long, but it's not supposed to be that way. I'm Jill Devine, a former radio personality with three tattoos, a love for a good tequila, and who's never read the entire Bible.
00:00:24
Speaker
Yet here I am hosting a podcast about faith.
Purpose of 'Normal Goes a Long Way'
00:00:28
Speaker
The Normal Goes Along Way podcast is your home for real conversations with real people using real language about how faith and real life intersect. Welcome to the conversation.
Who is God?
00:00:40
Speaker
Welcome to the bonus episode of Normal Goes a Long Way, where we continue the conversation with Pastor Chuck Shlee about the question, who is God? During the last interview, Jill was taking notes. And as you know, this podcast is all about Jill's spiritual journey and her
00:00:58
Speaker
Insights into these interviews are fascinating and so relevant to so many people. We're joined now with Jill and Chuck. And Jill, we'd love to know as you listened, what were you writing? What questions do you have for Chuck today?
Pastor Chuck Shlee's Background
00:01:16
Speaker
Can we start with your background, how you got involved in the church, things like that? Sure. I was brought up in the church ever since I was just a little bit of baby and my parents weren't like, you know,
00:01:32
Speaker
fundamentalist or anything like that but they took Jesus really seriously and so my dad was a mechanic and my mom was a housewife and they were church people and so we just kind of went to church every single Sunday and I didn't always like it a lot of times I didn't like it at all but we went we were got in the habit and so I just kind of grew up
00:01:56
Speaker
in the church. And then I would say, when I was thinking about junior high, high school, thinking of what to do with my life, there were so many things that I'm not good at. I'm not mechanical, and I don't do math. And it eliminated a lot of jobs. And I just looked at some pastors or teachers that I had. I'm like, I could do that. That doesn't look so tough. They look like they're having a good time. And it's been how many years?
00:02:27
Speaker
22 years as a pastor and nine years as a junior high teacher before that. Okay. Thanks for letting me know. You're welcome. All right. It makes me a little nervous because I think maybe my questions might be dumb.
00:02:42
Speaker
or I don't know, but I just know that if I have a question, at least somebody else does. Great. So let's start with the first question that I have based on the conversation between you and Laura.
Is God a Person?
00:02:55
Speaker
When you were talking about God, I wrote down, is God a person? And I wrote that down because when you were talking, I mean, I think he is, but
00:03:09
Speaker
you were describing different things that are important in your life, and maybe I just misunderstood, but that was the question that I wrote. I could say that God is very much a person, especially as you look at Jesus. He was a real physical person who
00:03:30
Speaker
blood, sweat, probably had zits when he was a teenager. And so this was God as a person on earth. But as far as like God, the heavenly Father or God, the Holy Spirit, I don't know what they look like. Okay.
00:03:47
Speaker
Yeah, I'm kind of hoping that like when I let's say get to heaven or you know or when God makes all things right and into the earth and all that it's a new heaven a new earth that they're physical like I could put my arms around God the Father and I'd see it that way. People encountered God as a physical person.
00:04:08
Speaker
100% correct. Yes. Especially when you look at Jesus. Jesus. When they encountered Jesus, they were encountering God in human form. But they're two different people.
00:04:23
Speaker
I know super confusing that I would say we wouldn't say they're two different people. It's think of it like God came to earth and he came as really want to mind bender as an embryo like swimming around in Mary just as like a little grain of rice God
00:04:49
Speaker
packed into a little grain of rice who grew and grew and grew and then was born human became flesh is what we say.
00:04:58
Speaker
And to make it even more confusing, John says, John, who was one of the closest people to Jesus, okay, that's who we're talking about here, who walked with Jesus on this earth. When he opens his book of the Bible, he talks about the word and the word being Jesus and that he was present when earth was created. So like,
00:05:26
Speaker
God was there in the beginning, Jesus was there in the beginning, the Spirit was there in the beginning, and yet they're all working together as the same, whatever the- Right, trifecta. Yeah. Which I know that, like you guys mentioned, the Trinity is very confusing to some, and I- I would say confusing to all. Yes. Okay. So- Like anyone who says, I've got that nailed. No, don't believe that.
00:05:54
Speaker
I feel like I have a better grasp on the Holy Spirit and Jesus than I do God. So when you say God, you could say, God, Jesus, God, God, Holy Spirit, God, or God, Father, Creator, God. They're all God. Yeah, because remember, God was present in Jesus, and Jesus spoke to the Father. So in that way, the Father was other. Yeah, it's like... Yeah, but then that would be speaking to yourself.
00:06:27
Speaker
I did want to bring something up about the Holy Spirit. Someone said to me, and I'm not getting this quote correct, but she presented the Holy Spirit as
Understanding the Holy Spirit
00:06:41
Speaker
someone that is a gentleman. She said, he's a gentleman and would never embarrass you or make you do embarrassing things. And the reason why that got brought up, we were talking about worshiping on Sunday mornings. And we were talking about how some people just don't want to put their hands in the air if there's music or some people do. And she said, you know, that's the Holy Spirit. And I remember also somebody saying it was
00:07:10
Speaker
one of our Easter services and my young girls were dancing like crazy and people were loving it. And I was like, oh, oh, is this okay? And then I, yeah. And somebody said, that's the Holy Spirit moving in them. Let them do their thing. And so we talked about that and this woman said, if you go to put your hands up and then all of a sudden it feels weird, the Holy Spirit's not going to embarrass you. He's going to be like, just, you're not ready yet.
00:07:38
Speaker
And I don't know why that has resonated with me, but I'm like, oh, I like that. He's a gentleman.
00:07:43
Speaker
He is who always has your best interest at heart. So he may though, have you do some things that you think are out of bounds. Like this is weird. So I'll hear like, I'll call it like a prompting or a nudge in my own little head, which I think is from the Holy Spirit that says something like, Chuck, you should go over and talk to that person. And then I say,
00:08:09
Speaker
No, they're a stranger. What if they take it like I'm a creep? Or, you know, so a lot of times I blow it off, but I shouldn't.
00:08:18
Speaker
But every once in a while I do listen and I actually do follow through and go over and talk to this stranger and they tell me something wild and they needed me to listen to them and love them for just a little bit. It's very weird and totally uncomfortable. So I would say I agree with your friend, but you may find yourself in some uncomfortable situations.
00:08:46
Speaker
I actually experienced that with you. It wasn't uncomfortable though. It was about a year ago, our school's golf tournament. And I was walking with Ryan Finler, who you have been introduced to in episode one, to go get a Bloody Mary. And you had said, hey,
00:09:11
Speaker
We should chat sometime, like 30 minutes. Let's just chat. I just want to get to know you." And I said, I would love that. And then we set up a meeting and it was right when I was interviewing for the job I'm doing now. And we had a really good talk. That's beautiful. I'm glad I was a part of it. You know, every once in a while, like I said, every once in a while, I actually do what the Holy Spirit tells me to do.
00:09:41
Speaker
I mean, I don't know that we would have set up a meeting had it not been for you to, I mean, not at that time for sure. But you know, what's fun is when you're open to it, when you actually ask for it, and that's a good way to start your day. Like God, send me someone to talk to someone to love someone to show some kind of kindness to. And he,
00:10:02
Speaker
because he loves that kind of stuff. That's like really getting into this walking with Jesus stuff. And who God is. Yeah, that's what we mean by the word discipleship is obeying that call. Think of the word adventure. That's how I see it.
00:10:20
Speaker
This Christian thing has been so jacked up where it turns into an hour on Sunday. Oh man, you're missing it. It's an adventure.
00:10:33
Speaker
I'm still confused on God, we can move on. Because I think that that's gonna come up a lot. Because it kind of goes into my next question where the word mysterious and mystery, all of this is a mystery, but how does someone wrestle with that in their mind maybe is the question. I don't know, mysterious caught me.
00:10:58
Speaker
I think mysterious you could what's the opposite of mysterious something you could put in a box something you could manipulate something that you could control something that you have all the answers for you then are God and you put God in this little box
00:11:18
Speaker
It's like, oh no, God is so much bigger. That's why we use the word mysterious. We could probably say the word bigger. But it basically goes back to the concept of, you know, you're not God, and you're going to have to trust Him. And even though you can't understand everything about the mind of God, you can always understand the heart of God.
00:11:43
Speaker
And that's what gives me a little comfort. It's like, okay, I don't completely understand his mind. I don't know how did Jesus do all those things he does, you know, in the Bible. I don't know how. Like, really? I don't. How does he walk on water? How does someone do that? I don't know how.
Trusting God's Mystery
00:12:00
Speaker
That's mysterious.
00:12:01
Speaker
All I know is he's it. I'm going with him. Even if I can't figure it all out, it's okay. Because I want God to be bigger and better and more mysterious than me. I don't want to control him. I really don't. There's so many mysterious things in life. Yeah. You look a little disappointed. It's not disappointment. It's confusion. Where I think that
00:12:32
Speaker
That's where we get into the arguments of scientific and this or that. And something that I said to my dad recently, I said, I don't know if it's me being naive or what have you, but I am choosing not to read those books.
00:12:57
Speaker
that argue against what I am believing. I am choosing to believe that there is a God and that there is a heaven and that this all happened. And he said to me, I think it's smart that you are doing that. I know a lot of people like to have, I mean, and I think everybody should, you know, form your opinion based on research or
Investigating Faith and Scripture
00:13:22
Speaker
based on what you know, but
00:13:26
Speaker
I'm not willing to go down that route, if that makes sense.
00:13:31
Speaker
I think it makes sense for you right now. Um, I think if there's people listening and saying, you know what, I want to read the, I want a second opinion. Yeah. I said, go for it. Go for it. Yeah. Read investigate. My problem is when people don't have, I guess intellectual integrity to look at the Jesus side of things, they just go, well, no, that can happen. I'm like, no, look into the history. Come on, read.
00:14:00
Speaker
Yeah, I'm sick of the followers, meaning somebody said this, so I'm going with them without figuring it out or doing, why do you go with them? Tell me why. Yeah, so I'm all, and personally I'm like, oh, investigate, investigate, investigate. It's funny because when I read the Bible, I am finding things that,
00:14:29
Speaker
Or maybe I'm picturing the way that some of these conversations are taking place. And in my community group, one time I brought up, I guess it's because we think of, or not think, but it's supposed to be kindness and gentleness and compassion and love. And so one time, I'm getting the Bible out here, the story of
00:14:55
Speaker
the Samaritan woman, where basically she goes to a well and Jesus is there. I don't know all of the... Sounds like you got it. Jesus, Samaritan woman, there's a well. Here's what I highlighted. Give me a drink, Jesus said to her. And I wrote down, why does, in quotes, give me a drink bother me so much? It feels demanding and rude.
00:15:22
Speaker
And you were talking about egotistical like Jesus, there are some things, you know, we're, and I feel that way. And sometimes when I'm reading it, and I had said that to my community group, and they're like, well, I just think you should probably understand the context and the background, like the fact that he would talk to this woman is a big deal. But then I'm like, well,
00:15:49
Speaker
If it's about kindness and compassion, why wouldn't you talk to this woman? Like why didn't he say please? Yes, that's exactly what and they're like, but you don't know how he said it to her. Maybe he didn't say, give me a drink. Maybe he was like, give me a drink. And I said, but why isn't there a please? I'm so hung up on that. Please give me a drink.
00:16:11
Speaker
that would make it feel better for me. A couple of things come to my head, I guess. One is that English translations are always okay. Like you and I don't speak Greek or Hebrew. And a lot of times it's like,
00:16:28
Speaker
the things we come across that don't sound very Jesus-y. Yeah. Um, actually are a lot more respectful and a lot more kind, but they don't come out that way in English. So when Jesus said, turns water into wine, you remember that in John chapter two and his mom comes up to him and says, Jesus, they don't have any wine. And Jesus says, woman, why are you bothering me with this? And we read that in English. Like she was Jesus. Uh, you know,
00:16:56
Speaker
That's your mom, dude. That is some very Jesus-y of you. And actually, it's not that in-your-face, blunt, bold.
Reading the Bible in Context
00:17:05
Speaker
It's more like, mom, my time's not yet come. But then he does it anyway.
00:17:14
Speaker
But could you see, though? Yes, I can see that. OK. And there's lots of places where it's like, oh, snap. Really? Really? I'm going to try to find my other one. OK. This is in Hebrews. Chapter four.
00:17:32
Speaker
For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, who shared in the Holy Spirit, who tasted God's good word and the powers of the coming age, and who have fallen away. This is because to their own harm they are re-crucifying the Son of God and holding them up to contempt.
00:17:51
Speaker
For the ground that drinks the rain that often falls on it and that produces vegetation useful to those for whom it is cultivated receives a blessing from God. But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and about to be cursed and at the end will be burnt." When I was reading that though, it felt like I wrote down, I need some clarification because I'm reading this as there's no hope for those that strayed and want to come back. That's how it felt to me. And then I was like, we're doing this podcast that
00:18:22
Speaker
So is it get is opposite of that? My first thought is when you read that is while it's super confusing. Mm hmm.
00:18:32
Speaker
Like I would have to sit down and really look at that, but I would definitely say that it's a wrong move to think that once you've strayed, there ain't no coming back. That's false. That's just false. So if you're reading that out of that, that's not true. And I think that that's one of the things that I'm loving about this whole situation is that I am
00:19:01
Speaker
reading this and writing things down and asking because it's just like they say with email, you know, you may write it one way, but somebody else can interpret it another way. And you think, well, how could you even think that I meant that when
00:19:16
Speaker
Right, right. So that's what's kind of... I see, you know, so you picked a passage out of Hebrews, which, you know, I personally, I would have to, and I'm like a Bible nerd. I'd have to sit down and really, like, go through that. So what I would point to you is, oh, let's go to something way more clear, because that sounds confusing to me. Let's go to something that Jesus said in Luke 15 again. I'll go to Luke 15.
00:19:45
Speaker
And I'm like, oh, look at the story he told about who God the Father is, and about this son who left, who turned his back on the Father, who went wayward, and who is completely welcomed home with a giant party from the Father. So that's how I can say, oh, no, that's not true, that once you've gone away, you're never allowed back.
00:20:15
Speaker
because Jesus tells a story just the opposite. You're totally welcome back, and all of heaven rejoices at the fact that you're welcome back. And I'll mention my reading of the Bible is coming through a reading plan for those that are new to reading the Bible like me. It's a reading plan that goes with a devotional, so I'm not just
00:20:37
Speaker
I can bruise a connoisseur. It happened to be that was the one and it just struck me. I think we should totally do an episode about...
00:20:48
Speaker
reading the Bible and how to handle things that seem contradictory because there are a lot, especially if you're just picking verses out like that. Out of context, things can seem like somebody said one thing and then somebody says another and just talk about how to deal with that because that's a huge, for a lot of people,
Life as a Pastor's Kid
00:21:11
Speaker
that can be a huge turnoff when they hear that, oh, this particular verse says this. And it's like, whoa, wait a minute. I don't, I don't believe that. Sure. You can, you know, Jesus says, do not judge. And then you read a bunch of stuff from Paul and he's like, no judge. And he's like, okay, which is it? It's seemingly, I like how you said seeming, it looks like a big contradiction, but it's not, but that will take some time too. That's worth an hour. Yeah, definitely. At least go through some of those.
00:21:41
Speaker
back to the whole normal goes a long way when you were talking about a certain child of yours who shall remain nameless. I bet that there's expectations for pastor's kids. I think that used to be the case. They used to have this term called PKs, pastor kids. Yeah. And they were always notoriously bad. They notoriously
00:22:11
Speaker
rebels. Okay. And I think that's because their pastor dads were probably very legalistic and very worried about how their children would be perceived in the eyes of the congregation. So I'm sure they were very strict and really grouchy. And instead, I don't want to try to do it just the opposite. I tell my kids,
00:22:38
Speaker
Wow, I love my job. Wow, this is a great gig. This is the best, you know? And I'm not totally legalistic with my kids. And I think they are turning out all right so far. We'll see what happens. I would say that that goes to their humans back to the judgment whole thing that we're humans. And that's what this whole thing is. You can be a human being and be a Christian. And it doesn't matter if you are a
00:23:07
Speaker
pastor or a PK, it doesn't matter there. There's, that's the modeling. I think that some people need, but that's also what some people judge. You know what? There's a, there's a passage like first Timothy, second Timothy, I forget which one that's that's set. It's the pastors. And it said that if you can't manage your own household, like your kids, if you can't manage your kids, then you can't take care of a church.
00:23:36
Speaker
I think that freaked a lot of old timers out. My grandpa was a pastor, and God rest his soul. I will say this isn't very nice, but it's pretty accurate. In my opinion, he was one of the meanest, grumpiest,
00:23:52
Speaker
strictest old German dudes I ever knew. He scared the, you know, what out of me? He was just mean. And I'm like, why? That he was like opposite Jesus. It was all truth, no love. And so I think these old guys were worried that if they don't have their kids in line, that it'll look bad on their ministry. And really, it's like, come on.
00:24:20
Speaker
I don't have much more when you guys were talking about coincidences. Have you ever heard that line that there are no coincidences? Coincidences are God's way of staying anonymous. Oh no, that's pretty good. I like that. I always think about that, so I wanted to bring that up. I'll end on a hard one.
Living in the Present vs. Focusing on Afterlife
00:24:41
Speaker
You both were talking about how the good stuff is coming, the best is yet to come, and by that we're meeting heaven.
00:24:48
Speaker
A friend of mine once, who I will say is, I don't know if I would go as far as saying she's an atheist, but close. And she had said, what bothers her is that a lot of people do live in this moment of
00:25:06
Speaker
Everything is so much better in heaven and they're ruining relationships or they're not cultivating these relationships because they're like, I'll just see you in heaven. And they're not taking advantage of living their life on this earth. I think about that a lot. Not that I don't not believe in heaven, that's not it. But I'm like, well, I don't want to just wait to heaven.
00:25:30
Speaker
I want to, I want to experience it now. I want to, I want that now too. You've got it. You've got it. Your friend is touching on a truth. Yes. That is a, that is a danger of doing the whole, Oh, well, um, who cares when I get to heaven, everything's going to be all right. And you totally like veg out for the next,
00:25:57
Speaker
30 years of your life or whatever, thinking, putting all your hope in the future. Yes, I personally, I can't wait to get to heaven. And yet, hold the phone. You are 100% right that we're supposed to live life now. And when you said heaven on earth, if you look at the Lord's Prayer, Jesus says, pray that on earth as it is in heaven.
00:26:23
Speaker
We're not supposed to just sit in the corner and wait for death at all. That's completely opposite of what Jesus is telling us. We're supposed to be on this adventure now. The kingdom is now.
Adventure of Faith on Earth
00:26:39
Speaker
It's not when you get to heaven. No, it's now. It's yes and.
00:26:45
Speaker
Yeah. And I like to think of it as, you know, we're on this adventure now, but we don't see how it all fits together until heaven. So it's like in heaven, we're going to see how, how we loved on this earth and how we met people and interacted with them, like the difference that it made. We're going to find that out in heaven, but I don't want to miss out on seeing
00:27:14
Speaker
what God did through me. And so I gotta do what he says to do now. I don't know if that helps, but it's like, when we get there, we're gonna see what he did through our lives and it's gonna matter.
00:27:29
Speaker
I just am looking forward to those thoughts just to be gone. You know, when I'm in heaven, like, I'm just going to be peaceful. Yes, there's I think that's just hope, which is something to look forward to. But don't miss what's right in front of your face. You know, it's like, yeah, look forward to Christmas. But, you know, we all kind of do this where we put so much hope and
00:27:57
Speaker
thought to the future that we miss the moment, like right in front of us, because we're so jacked up about the future event Christmas that we actually ruin Christmas or pre Christmas. It's kind of that's kind of how I see it. I'm like, Oh, yeah, the good stuff coming. But don't miss the good stuff right here. Don't miss it. I needed to hear that. That you feel that same way. Yeah, so is Jesus, in my opinion.
00:28:25
Speaker
We definitely have to talk about the whole suffering and why do bad things happen to good people. I don't want to touch it now, but I will say one thing that I related to what your way of thinking about
00:28:42
Speaker
Oh, in your head, you play out if something happens to somebody that's anything tragic. Three years down the road, this could have happened. And maybe that's why God chose to do this. So that's something I want to get into a different time. But I was thinking about somebody who may be saying, I don't understand why this happened to them or why this is happening to me. Just
00:29:07
Speaker
there's a future there's a plan there really is and you may never ever see it ever ever but there is no put down natural disaster come on yeah people die in tornadoes and tsunamis and i guess we're getting back to the it's okay to shake your fist at god every once in a while and say i don't get it this
00:29:30
Speaker
bugs me. And you know what? It bugs him too. This year I'm doing something weird. I decided to read the Bible backwards, just for something new. And so I started in Revelation and I'm, you know, just reading it backwards. Not like word for word backwards, but like chapter by chapter backwards. Okay. That's confusing. What a weirdo. Yeah, okay. I am, but not that.
00:29:53
Speaker
so I'm I'm in Deuteronomy, which is one of the first five books of the Bible and Something really caught my attention this morning God is laying out some rules for his people and he says don't let there be any poor people among you Not kick them out If someone's poor don't make them don't let them be poor if you have some stuff share your stuff somebody ask lend it to him and Gotta send this whole thing up. So there's no poor people. I promise we go. Yeah
00:30:23
Speaker
No thanks. So there's poor people. Why is it America has, you know, more than we need? And Uganda doesn't have what they need. Is it because it's a distribution problem? It's because we're keeping it. Because we go, nah, is it God's problem? Yeah. But it's really our problem. Because we suck at sharing. So that's a really fun topic. Or not fun. Like, ha ha fun, but it's, it's juicy is what I'm saying.
00:30:52
Speaker
You'll be back for that. Thank you. Oh I think we should have Pastor Jim back for that. You're so smart and so normal and thank you. My pleasure it is. Speaking of normalness in our next episode we have someone coming on his name is Justin and
00:31:15
Speaker
I'm going to actually interview him. We're doing things different. I'm going to interview him. Laura's going to sit in and then she's going to ask the questions because he's kind of on the same wavelength as me as far as our faith journey. So that is going to happen in our next episode. Here's a preview.
00:31:34
Speaker
Even down to the week before the kids were baptized, I was saying, I'm only doing it for the kids, as an example for the kids. So that when they ask, is dad baptized? We can say yes, and they can go on their merry way. One week before, like I said, I felt God come to me.
00:31:50
Speaker
Basically, just, I mean, one thing I felt he said to me in word for word was like, I'm not here for them. I'm here for you. And you're not gonna come to pretend get baptized for them. You're gonna come for you. You're gonna be saved.