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Episode 06: Blaž Urban Gracar and Ferran Ruiz Sala (LOK Digital)
199 Plays4 months ago
In this special episode, hosts Alan and Syrenne are joined by the developers of LOK Digital, the exciting new Draknek & Friends published release that just surprised launched! Topics include the original design of the LOK book, the journey to the digital version, signing with Draknek & Friends, and the road to launch.
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Transcript
Introduction & Hosts
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to the Dragneck & Friends official podcast, where we peel back the curtain on puzzle games and the people who make them. I'm Saren, the producer at Dragneck & Friends, and I'm joined as always by Alan Hazilden, the head dragneck at Dragneck & Friends.
Guest Introduction
00:00:35
Speaker
hey Today, we're joined by Ferran and Blage, who you may know from their work on the just released Lock Digital. How are y'all doing today? Hello. Yeah, I don't know. Pretty well. I hope ah the time this comes out, we're doing even better because it's going to be out. Yeah, yeah. Hello from me as well.
00:00:58
Speaker
Can the two of you introduce yourself with kind of your names and some of the stuff you've worked on for listeners? Okay. I'm Blas, Urbana Grazar. And in the game, I'm a Slovenian artist and in the game Circles.
00:01:15
Speaker
I'm probably the most known for Lock, which is the puzzle book from which Lock digital came. But other than that, I also released another puzzle book called Abdek. And before that, a card game called Ollie's Bomb. But I'm also working in other artistic areas.
00:01:36
Speaker
i'm ferran I'm from Barcelona. I'm a developer. I've worked on jobs before. I worked on small indie companies here in in Barcelona. And now I started like trying to build projects under the name ice drop games and my handle online is raindrinker. You might know me as that. And we published a small puzzle game called Constellations. That's how we met with Flash, basically. He was playtesting that. And then I played lock and that's how we started working together with Flash. And yeah, I'm working now on lock, which is releasing digital.
00:02:15
Speaker
and working on some other projects, One Billion Spells, which is a very different and not that thinky game and that we're working with the people at Ice Drop. And that's it, yeah. So, Blas, can you walk the listeners through some of the history of the book?
Inspiration & Creation of Lock
00:02:32
Speaker
Yeah, sure. A lock was made when I was not yet engrossed in the whole puzzle community. I was still an outsider at that moment, but I was working on another puzzle book just a little bit earlier.
00:02:48
Speaker
It was called Lena and I never finished it so this was sort of something that I enjoyed doing and I wanted to make a finished product, a finished game as a puzzle book so yeah, this was sort of the main idea behind lock to make something small that I would actually publish.
00:03:07
Speaker
And so I mean, if we're talking about the core inspiration, I had a discussion with Stephen Lavelle over email, and during this discussion, he sent me a word search set of puzzles which use the Tokil Pona language. And this is a constructed new language which uses 128 words, I think. And it was very strange for me because I had to reference a list of Toki Pona words to actually find these words. And at the same time, I was constantly thinking that something crazy will happen in these puzzles because this was evenly well. But yeah, in the end, there were normal word search puzzles, but it made me thinking.
00:03:52
Speaker
And this was like the main ah inspiration, just how to make a word search puzzle game using an invented language, which also has some meta a crazy stuff going on. So yeah, this is how it all went. And what was the context in which you were chatting to you, Stephen, about word searches?
Board Game Design Journey
00:04:15
Speaker
Oh, no, I sent him this previous project, Linon, and he streamed it and just responded as, look, here is a paper puzzle set that I've made. So this was how he sent it. Got it. So what got you into the idea of making puzzle books in the first place then?
00:04:35
Speaker
Well, I got heavily into board game design in 2018 because I started playing Catan at that point. And it was just, you know like for many, the first board game that struck a chord with me. And yeah, I got really excited about making my own board games, but nothing felt right. And it always felt sluggish. like There were too many components.
00:05:01
Speaker
and then during the pandemic I was sitting at home and I just drew a bunch of dots um on a paper and I connected them and something happened inside of me like well okay this is very simple very very pure and it can be very it can be expanded so this is how I just started making Linon, it felt the most natural to work in a puzzle genre. And only after, you know, I settled upon the medium, I started looking into puzzle games. So this was sort of a strange order of things, but yeah then I got into all the classics, including Trachnik. And yeah, so this this is how I came into Linon and then into
Partnership Formation
00:05:48
Speaker
Look.
00:05:49
Speaker
Awesome. And then <unk> you said that you met Blige when he was playtesting for you. How did you start working together?
00:06:00
Speaker
Yeah, I had had to revise that story because I didn't remember completely the order of operations. But when I looked back to it, yeah, he was playing constellations. I don't know where you found it. Like we were following each other on Twitter. Yeah, and Twitter. Yeah, yeah. And Twitter chat. And I think, like,
00:06:23
Speaker
Yeah, you're just giving some feedback on the constellations levels. I think we're close to launch at that point. Launch, if you can call it that. And I saw that just right following that you were doing some strange like pen and paper puzzle stuff. I had like basically no relationship to any of that.
00:06:39
Speaker
I got into that through ah both cracking the cryptic during the pandemic that was doing the constructed Sudoku. I didn't know that was a thing. And then also like Elliot Grant's talk about the relationship between paper puzzles and computer puzzles and what can they learn of each other. And I really liked the book and I just went to Blythe and was like, oh, I made a prototype. Like I i just thought it would be fun to prototype. So I But the project, I sent it to him. I was like, oh, I think this would work really well as a digital. I don't know how we're going to do the later mechanics that are really cool, but the starting ones at least work. And we started from there um trying to figure out if this was something fun to do. And yeah, thats that was kind of how it started. I don't know the specifics of how the follow happened, like the first absolute contact. But I remember.
00:07:35
Speaker
do you Do you remember the Puzzle Prime contest that used your ah constellation puzzle? this This was how I noticed your work at first. true yeah puzzle prime is a like They were so nice. I think they were the first person to notice constellations. and like give very enthusiastic feedback about what I was doing and it was really validating so yeah ah hello to puzzle prime if you're listening to this I guess yeah and and yeah I guess we met somewhat through his blog in a sense no yeah yeah I mean ah I yeah I remember seeing that puzzle thinking whoa this is very cool and then yeah we followed each other I think and
00:08:18
Speaker
The next moment I saw a post by you with looking for play testers and I recognized the puzzle. It was the same but in the digital environment and I wrote about play testing. Yeah, it's interesting now because it basically went the other way. like and Puzzle Prime forced me to do a non-digital adaptation of Constellations. Oh, I wasn't aware. what I thought that you started first with... you like No, it was Puzzle Prime that went like, oh, I have puzzles on my blog. I think constellations could work. Oh, I just now remember that. like That's funny. and But yeah, basically, like I never did constellations on paper. like That was nothing I thought existed, like puzzles on pen and paper. Why would you do that? And I was like, OK, yeah, if you think a constellations puzzle is going to be nice to solve with a pen. I mean, obviously, constellations has some
00:09:13
Speaker
What is it called? No, I'm going to mess this up. like kaku or something like There's ah there' is a Japanese puzzle genre that's close by, but it has a restriction that lines need to be vertical and horizontal. um and This is starting with K. Yeah, but I think Sakura has... Numbers. Yeah, the sum the sounds of numbers. Oh, I should know this. But yeah yeah, people can look it up. I don't know. I'm sorry. But yeah, yeah, I knew it had something to do with pen and paper puzzles, but it was designed. Constellations was like the main inspiration was and phone unlocking system, like the thing you do when you unlock your phone, because I thought that was a really interesting mechanical base to input like codes or something. and but Yeah.
00:10:01
Speaker
So yeah, yes it's interesting because I got to adapt to paper constellations and then that's how you found the constellations puzzle on paper and then ah we ended up adapting the other way around with luck. That's good.
00:10:16
Speaker
So what was talking about adapting lock into it's the digital puzzle format sort of thought, do you remember if there were any initial challenges with that prototype that you made that you ran into, like getting any of the logic to work because it is a kind of bespoke type of logic that lock uses?
00:10:44
Speaker
Yeah,
Digital Adaptation Challenges
00:10:45
Speaker
there's there's some weird trickery, especially like in later chapters without wanting to spoil too much. um I think when I started doing the prototype and I suggested the adaptation, I had the feeling that we were going to have to drop a lot of the later mechanics. And that made me feel kinda like maybe i'm I'm not doing the best service to this game. like Until we're really elbows deep into it, we didn't go, oh, no, we can actually do everything. And there's cool solutions to everything.
00:11:14
Speaker
Even something as as obvious that feels right now that when you spell a lock word, a a lock creature appears, and then you click a tile and it splashes into it, that's not built into the book at all. like That's not the thing that the book even implies. and So for a while, we didn't have that. And when we did that and blasted the animations, it clicked really well. like That's when, OK, this is working because we are really using the digital medium to add like ah just to this more um unresponsive dynamic that is usually with the book where everything happens in the head of the player, which I think is the coolest part of the book. And at the beginning, I was really scared of losing that and messing that up and just making a worse worse version. But I think we managed to compensate what we cannot do because video games are fundamentally a feedback medium.
00:12:11
Speaker
we went Instead of just adding the necessary feedback, we went beyond and tried to make it. It could really makes sense to the point of people that play the game first cannot really sometimes understand how these would be played as a puzzle book, which is really funny. But yeah, ah the the tech behind it, I don't think it's so anything crazy, especially at the beginning. There's some strange logic.
00:12:35
Speaker
but nothing that's nuclear. like It was an interesting challenge. like The main reason I did it, when I did the prototype, I didn't expect it would go and obviously to this, but even to like life being into it. But I was like, oh, this seems like an interesting problem. And that's the reason I got into game programming instead of doing websites. So I was drawn to it, I guess. And what exactly was it was that the interesting puzzle was that you thought was there?
00:13:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think that comes from the thing I was mentioning with like Eliot and then cracking the cryptic. Like I was so used when I thought Sudoku for a long time, I thought about like a Sudoku book, procedural generated puzzles slop in a sense, like if if you accept that term, no? And seeing that there were people like doing these puzzles that were really designed that had like this solve path that built this kind of conversation between the designer and the solver was really interesting to me. And obviously, I knew that there were Sudoku puzzles that were designed by that point. like I learned that through Cracking the Cryptic. But I feel like Blige's work was my first contact with something that was a full book that is a logical conversation from start to end, that it builds upon itself. And its nothing feels out of place. and
00:13:54
Speaker
It just establishes this system that's completely new, like a language. is It's what it is, like a logical language. And I was like, oh, this is something special. and Through Blige, I learned that other people were doing similar stuff. Like it was not extremely, like fundamentally innovative. But to me, just that concept, not specifically luck, but the idea of having a puzzle book in that way was something new. And I really liked it. It felt really video game-y.
00:14:23
Speaker
really interesting for the games that I've done before. My main problem with constellations, which we were happy with, but it was a very trial and error game. It didn't allow for a lot of logic because moves were independent to one another. And this was the opposite of that. like there There was clearly like ah ah steps to a solve, like a logic to it, like ah a conversation of sorts. And I really like that.
00:14:49
Speaker
So those are the things that called to me, I guess. And I thought it was great. So i was i I want to know how this goes. And at that point, the book wasn't even released. So i'm I'm credited as a play tester. like A part of it was wanting to give back because like Flash was play testing considerations. I was like, oh, you're doing this thing and I like it. So kinda do you want me to play test it too? And that's kind of how it started. yeah Are you even yet? I don't know. We'll see. Hopefully. ah Yeah, I don't know. i've I've had a lot of working relationships that are very like even they can just kind of work with the barter system and I'm really happy about it. So I don't know. and I feel really even like I don't feel out anything at all, obviously. And I'm really happy with what we've managed to do so. Yeah, absolutely. and Absolutely.
00:15:49
Speaker
Awesome. One thing that I'm curious about going from the prototype into production of the full game. So, Phidon, you show it to Blige, together you agree. Let's do this. How much of the original prototype, like code, work, e etc., is still in this final version?
00:16:12
Speaker
too much probably. Okay, you did build it off the prototype. It wasn't just... I think so. I might have cleaned it up at some point ah very early, but I've not... like its The game would probably be nicer to work on now if at some point during development, I took everything I learned about the weirdness of the later mechanics of log. And I was like, OK, let me build a more robust system to handle this. I don't think it's bad in any way. like It's handleable, especially for like basically only one programmer poking the code. But yeah, I think there's like almost a continuous line. I'm not sure. I think that maybe the initial, I don't know if the initial prototype was good.
00:16:59
Speaker
and i'm I'm a big Godot fan most of the time and this is Unity and it's a project that probably if I started it now maybe I would do Unity but I think there were some problems with Mac compatibility and Blige is a Mac user so that was a bit of a barrier. so I don't think that the first prototype that I sent was Unity but I cannot recall completely And maybe it ran on web. And if it ran on web, it was probably good. Oh, I'm not sure. But yeah, I think early on, maybe at some point, I did like a blank slate and started it properly. But not any time recently. like It's been a continuous growing project, which it's probably a project that if you start from clean, ah it would take a lot less time once you have the complicated bits figured out. ah It's a project that's very
00:17:51
Speaker
restartable. and But we didn't, I guess. Makes sense. And then Alan, this question is surprise for you. How did
Development Timeline & Publishing
00:18:02
Speaker
you find lock and lock digital?
00:18:06
Speaker
Ah, good question. I remember I saw the PDF of Lock before it was fully released, probably on the Thinky Puzzle Games Discord. And I remember playing it like a little bit. I didn't play and like get to all the later puzzles, but like I i played it enough to get all the sense of like, oh, wow, this is this is interesting. um And I didn't get in touch with any any feedback, but like I played it a bit then and I was aware of it.
00:18:33
Speaker
And then I didn't play it when the full release came out. I had people talking about it and having a good time. But yeah, the the next time it would have really been on my radar with seeing Fran working on lock digital.
00:18:46
Speaker
um I don't remember exactly the timeline in which I became aware of lock digital, but the time I, I was sat down with like, Oh wow, this is, this is really amazing. With you doing a play testing session Fran, and yeah I just was like, Oh, Yeah, you're playtesting this. I'm going to sit down. I'm going to play it and give feedback. And I sat down and was like, oh, wow, this is like really juicy. This is really solid. It's like very satisfying to play in a way that hadn't really got from the videos of it. And so, yeah, that playtest was when I and really took notice of and went like, oh, this is this is really strong. And that would have been about when you shared it with me.
00:19:32
Speaker
ah Yeah, possibly. I do not remember. Yeah, I think that play this was like crazy for me at that point because it was a interesting opportunity. And suddenly, like you and Joe from the thinking games and from the YouTube channel, which I must be the person who's watched the most hours of the YouTube channel. And like, I think Elliot was in that play this. No, maybe not on that play this. He tried it later on. um And it was like, oh, this this quote unquote, like um I was just at the time like getting into the
00:20:06
Speaker
networking in the puzzle. I was meeting a lot of people who seemed really far away very, like a few months before, or even a few weeks before. And it was really daunting to, oh, I'm going to organize, like I guess, the greatest with these folks. And it was really nice to see that the figure was good, was really validating. I don't know what the title of that is, like at what point we were then if the shut up and sit down thing had already happened and not yet or how long was until the book was released. I should be specific about that. Yeah, I think the big
00:20:42
Speaker
semi-break we got with Blige even before Dragneck was when we got reviewed. I mean, Lockbook was reviewed by by Tom Brewster from Shut Up and Sit Down. And ah you and him, Blige, exchanged some emails and you mentioned the game. So he slightly mentioned the game too in the video. And it was the first influx of wish lists.
00:21:06
Speaker
And yeah, everything went super quickly then. Whether that happened, then I had that playtest. Not long after, like, you, Alan, approached me with, a oh, would you be interested in that? And I was like, yes, obviously. Like, I don't see how is this is not the best thing that can happen to this project, basically. um So.
00:21:29
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think there was in my memory, there's a bit of a gap between playing that build for the playtest and reaching out for, um hey, would you be interested in direct publishing this? Yeah, it was not immediate. Like it was not it's probably like six months apart. Oh, that's really okay. Maybe. Yeah.
00:21:48
Speaker
I mean, if Alan became aware, primarily from the play test, then I found out through Alan, I had known about the game for at least like four or five months before we decided to chat about publishing. ah Okay, okay. I mean, yeah, time is a weird weird soup. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, we we reached out I think around November.
00:22:12
Speaker
2023 to say, hey, Drakniks, looking to to do another publishing project. We think this game is really promising. Are you interested? And so yeah, I mean, the conversation happened pretty, pretty quickly. Well, it would have gone a little quicker if, I think, Ferran specifically thought we were pranking. What? What? What?
00:22:40
Speaker
I distinctly remember getting on a call and asking if we were actually being serious. I mean, just you guys to take that as like a form of praise, probably like I was not actually asking if you were being serious. It was like ah a mean prank. I mean, I remember that the first time we talked to with Blige about it, Blige's reaction was like, oh, they must be like publishing like tons of stuff.
00:23:04
Speaker
yeah yeah i was not what that i don't know i conversation conversation with that yeah That was your follow-up question was like at the end of the call the final question was are we like one in a lineup of like 30 games you're signing? No like not 30 but yeah I thought because I actually didn't think that love digital I mean I'm happy that it is worthy of Drachnik, but at that point I thought that you are expanding, that you will have a bunch of titles in 2024. It was very surprising, the whole thing.
00:23:43
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's a recognizable name. Like, microcelebrity is still a celebrity. Like, it's it's a brand name. And we're just bumbling fools that were trying to do something. So as much as, like, it's a... Isn't that everyone in the industry, though? Yeah, yeah. That's, I mean, that's the thing I learned the most. And, oh, that's been the main formative experience in my still short career in video games. Like, if somebody tries to pretend that they know what they're doing, run.
00:24:12
Speaker
And everyone else that's worth your time is going to tell you, like you're a bumbling fool, but I am too. And that's been really nice, because its it has given me a lot of freedom to i guess leave jobs and and try to do risky, probably things that didn't look very financially responsible, like going into log development.
00:24:35
Speaker
And it's somewhat working out, so i i I'm glad. But yeah, the first shot was like, even though it's just a bunch of people, and I wasn't really getting used to going into the Thinky Discord and seeing like, Hempully there, and ah YouTubers I watched there, and Lucas Pope or whatever. It was like, oh my god, like these people are just walking around like they're... normal,
00:25:02
Speaker
which is, like I guess, just parasocial nonsense. But yeah, it felt special because it was it felt like being recognized by someone you recognize. And that's really nice. And we couldn't believe it for a second.
00:25:14
Speaker
ah And so we signed you. We're very excited about that. And then we tried to get to work in making the game and ship it this year and listeners will know by now as we say sometimes in america a real buzzer beater we really got in under the wire of getting in middle of december but we hit this year yeah yeah uh the last section of development stretch a little bit i feel like the game has been finished for five months or something now it's been content complete yeah
00:25:57
Speaker
Yeah, it it was probably like the the initial target was very doable. I got slightly burnt out of the post-content complete section and frustrated with production things that I was not used to, but we got through. so and yeah And listeners will know now if something ah strange happened, if the game is met out, ah it should be.
00:26:21
Speaker
so If this game is not out yet, I don't think this episode will come out. I'm just going to put that out there. If you're listening to this, go get the game right now on Steam or itch, please. It's real good. It's really, really good. Why are you listening to this if you haven't got the game already? Unless you're really talented and can go play this game while listening to this podcast. Yeah, two screens. People have two screens.
00:26:48
Speaker
No. So I mean, our our marketing campaign for this really started with, uh, what was it? Cerebral puzzle showcase
Event Showcases & Reception
00:26:57
Speaker
into PC gaming show. Yeah. I think we announced it a little bit for cerebral puzzle showcase. Like we announced we were publishing it. Then we had the demo and cerebral puzzle showcase. Then we had the demo and the the daily puzzles for a PC gaming show. Love me some daily puzzles.
00:27:17
Speaker
That was and was a really great few months of like a lot of excitement for the game in that period. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think the moment that it was like, OK, this is going beyond is when I got to watch like big Spanish YouTuber with two million followers on Twitch reacting to the silly trailer of a weird game and all his chat going like, what the hell is this thing? And he was like, oh, I made it. Like, I would not never expect it to have. In this case, it's Alex El Capo. It's Spanish YouTuber that I watch for like all my from the teens, basically.
00:27:56
Speaker
And it was really funny showing my friends, oh, look, this guy that you know about is just about to react to something I made. And it I was in a gathering with friends at that point. So we were watching with the phone. It was really nice. And that was the first like the summer game fest.
00:28:13
Speaker
still don't understand what kind of ah threats you with, you guys at Dragneck to get those kind of things. and But it was a really cool place to be and showcase the game and it got really good buzz. And what was your reaction to ah people playing the daily puzzles and competing on the leaderboards? Is this a poison question for me because I didn't have it all in me that that was going to be a thing?
00:28:42
Speaker
No, no, it was it was just like just genuinely like, what was it like? it It's so weird to see someone like actually, like when I was seeing people that were playing every day, like even though we only did a small run, like it became part of people's routine. That's a wild thing to think about.
00:29:03
Speaker
I don't know how, like, and I feel like I'm talking too much now. um But yeah, it it was just like, I didn't expect people, I was happy with with log being like the book, something that has a beginning and an end. And it's like, as I said before, like a conversation. And the daily puzzles feel like a little bit of just content.
00:29:25
Speaker
But it was nice to design the generation. And people were enjoying it a lot, like and the work that was kind of weird with doing the leaderboards and stuff, and because those things are always tricky. and Very clearly was worth it. And I hope it's easy it now more with the game out. We're going to have like the scroll bar is going to be so small. m But yeah.
00:29:52
Speaker
ah kind I don't know. I know we had conversations with Vlage about the dailies when they were first suggested or and yeah we were on the fence. Yeah, sorry. Vlage, what's your feelings about how it turned out? Yeah, yeah sorry for for being a bit silent. Yeah, I agree with Farhan completely. ah But yeah, maybe an interesting thing is that when we first discussed generated puzzles with Farhan, even before you approached As a publisher, I remember that I was very against it ah and that we both agreed that, yeah, we want people to play the the real deal, not the generated stuff. But throughout the cooperation with with you guys, I absolutely learned a few things about good design.
00:30:44
Speaker
Daily puzzles is one thing, but the other thing is hints. I sort remember a we had a lot of discussions about ah including hints or not, but now that we have for what, at least in nine nine months or or something, i I'm really happy that they are included and we got a lot of good feedback about them.
00:31:04
Speaker
Yeah, like a part of me wanted, because since my coming into this project was specifically about, like all I talked about, Sudoku books going into Sudoku designer things, adding procedural stuff into lock felt a little bit like going in the opposite direction. So I had the initial like icky reaction to it. But people like it, it's fun. ah Like the campaign is still there as a clean experience.
00:31:30
Speaker
completely separate from it. So it's good. And that's what matters. But yeah, that was it was more of a metaphysical thing for me. And I imagine also for Blythe, oh, Irish is going to turn this into hashtag content of sorts. Makes sense. Alan, do you have any questions?
00:31:50
Speaker
um Yeah, i'm I want to go back chronologically a bit, like way back to when you started collaborating. Blaj, what was your initial reaction to seeing that first prototype that Fran sent you? Well, it was amazing. I mean, something that I've just put together in Photoshop was suddenly moving and you know things could be clicked. So yeah, it was a very positive reaction. I really liked it. I was maybe a bit, you know,
00:32:19
Speaker
talking to Ferran, slowed down, let me first finish the book, which I still think was a smart decision because I've had experience before with Linon. A very talented Polish developer contacted me and said that he wanted to do something or like an ad, a ah companion ad for Linon puzzles, and I was of course up for it.
00:32:40
Speaker
And it's I don't want to say that it killed the project, but it was just another thing that was called the scope creep at that moment for Linot. So when Ferran approached me, I said to him, this is great. I love it. But let me first finish the book, and then let's talk. And this is what we did.
00:33:01
Speaker
And then it started at snowballing quite quickly, I think, with what I released the book in ah July, 2022. And so we had the first demo up, I think, March.
00:33:17
Speaker
And we weren't rushing, but yeah, we a lot of work was done in in those first few months. um So, yeah. Nice. And then something else I think, we've kind of touched on it, but I think we could go deeper, is talking about the differences from the physical format of a book.
00:33:36
Speaker
where
Book vs Digital Experience
00:33:37
Speaker
like it's just a static object in front of you and you have to figure out the rules of the game yourself, you have to figure out have you solved the puzzle yourself to a video game that can have much more interactive feedback about what you're doing and whether it's the right thing and how things work. I'd love to chat more about like your feelings about those and like how it felt to adapt the the game from from one format to another.
00:34:05
Speaker
a When Ferran said that he was afraid to i don't know remove the the most the best part of lock, which would be the rule discovery from the digital game, I was a little bit scared about it too. but I think that this is you know two sides of the same coin. I think that someone could potentially pick up the logbook and solve it and pick up log digital and solve it and it would have two different experiences and both of them would be fulfilling. Because yeah, there is something about having a physical object and going to the beach or you know just
00:34:43
Speaker
doing it while you eat breakfast. And they another thing when you sit down and you want to have a brainy experience on the computer. And I mean, it's interesting also, yeah, the rule discovery thing didn't translate as well to the log digital game. But at the same time, I think that me if if me and Ferran would start working on a completely new game and we would decide to go for a rule discovery.
00:35:08
Speaker
We would do it so much better because the translation had to happen because lock was already existing. But if you have, I mean, if you look at again, like understand or even the witness, which was a great influence for lock, you know, it's much more immediate and better working in the digital environment. So yeah.
00:35:30
Speaker
There were some small stuff that didn't translate as well. But I think that now that we have the game done, I'm really, really proud of it. I'm really glad what Ferran did with it. And yeah, I'm just happy that it exists. It's fantastic.
00:35:45
Speaker
Yeah, that there was an early like growing pains at the beginning for sure, both like in making sure that I really like this, but am I like, yeah, like am I taking a deer in the forest and hanging it in my wall, you know, kind of sort of thing, where like you're removing the magic just to put it in a box. And yeah, I think It was a work of like, I need to make sure to give enough care and love to the digitalness of it. So what we lose in one side, we gain on the other. And it's it's really hard still to players. There's a thing you can do with the game that you cannot do with the book. With the game, you can just click stuff randomly until the puzzles are solved.
00:36:33
Speaker
and I've seen people do that and it's not ah it cannot be and not a great experience if someone doesn't engage with the game in the right mindset. The book literally does not allow you to do that because you can only pass the page. like The only thing you can do is throw it out of the window. like It demands a different type of of of mindset that the game kind of cannot for better or worse.
00:36:55
Speaker
And yeah, i as as I said, like at the beginning, we had some doubts. I was worried about the later mechanics. Everything seemed seemed like it could be just a slightly worse version of a great thing, so maybe a good thing. But I think we we went through, and when we started more working together, and we were like, OK, now we can do things in the game that are not in the book. like It's not supposed to be just an adaptation. It has extra content. There are puzzles.
00:37:24
Speaker
that are too hard for the book because on the book, Bellasch was really smart and added the transparent sheet so you could have a semblance of an undo, but it's not really an undo, but on the game you have undo so you can tackle puzzles that are much harder and it can be really satisfying. So there's stuff like that that we noticed that the game could do that the paper couldn't, and then it started feeling more worth it to to do the translation, the adaptation.
00:37:50
Speaker
Yeah, I opened up my archive of puzzles that we didn't make it into lock and just... There were good puzzles, but yeah, too convoluted. So yeah, it was a great place to just put them into lock digital, where it worked great.
00:38:05
Speaker
On that note, I'm curious if you have any wisdom that you've like accumulated about like your sense of what makes a good puzzle for lot so lock? For lock?
Puzzle Design Philosophy
00:38:18
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's hard to put your finger on it, but yeah, sure. I've gotten better with it. And it surprised me that when I started making new puzzles for log digital that I still had new and new ideas. Of course, new mechanics do add a lot of possibilities, but still, you know, it's just so much that you can say inside of a system. So I'm really glad so how it all worked out. But wisdom about log puzzles specifically, because I think that this could be applied to
00:38:54
Speaker
a lot of things and I'm not sure if it's really confined to just one puzzle in particular, but I think I learned more about how to make a system of puzzles, like how they are connected, so how they teach going from one to the other and so on.
00:39:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think that for puzzle games, and it's the approach that I used on my jam games, what I used to do on jam games is once I have thought of a system, do the hardest puzzle I can come up with that has a really cool, that showcases everything, put that at the end and the rest of the game is a tutorial.
00:39:28
Speaker
And I think that Locke has that quality where like the whole book is a tutorial. like There are some puzzles which are kind of like, now you know everything, solve this. But there are like four or five of those almost. I mean, no, maybe with the star puzzles in the in the game is a bit more. But on the book, like the book feels like a tutorial. And I think that's why a lot of people I've played tested the game with that are not puzzle game players become puzzle monsters once they are playing lock, because it just puts like another morsel of food in your face. That's just part of a like huge tutorial and keeps you hooked. And I almost feel to disparage the points when some friends describe the game as addictive. I was like, i I don't know if you want this to be described in those terms, but it has that quality of it flows nicely into itself because it is a tutorial, basically. It's not a game. I mean,
00:40:24
Speaker
It's a, I think there's a sort of middle ground between it's a tutorial versus it is always just teaching you slash onboarding you to just one more idea. But that that one more idea is just like a very clever step forward. It's like, that's like part of rule discovery in its nature as like a puzzle genre.
00:40:49
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, what I mean is like every level has a message. Like i can I could tell Blash like, oh, we need to fix the level where you learn X and he knows which level it is. Because it's every level has like, you could describe it with a sentence. There's no, as I said previously, like there's almost no hashtag content. There's at the end, there can be a level which is just like the, okay, no perform, but those are quite rare. And I think that's what gives it this,
00:41:16
Speaker
essence of um yeah like the rule discovery pushing you forward without it being obtuse because a lot of rule discovery games can be leaned so hard into it that it's just and going through possibilities or to bake. like I think the key of lock is like it puts a really small level in front of you. And it has this beautiful puzzle flow of you look at something and with what you know so far, it looks obviously impossible. And there's something that makes a lot of sense that makes it not impossible. And you keep hitting that note over and over. And I think this is what got me
00:41:59
Speaker
interested in the book. And hopefully, we need more of that with the new mechanics in the in the game. Makes sense. As we sort of come to the end of discussing the journey that we went through on this game, ah what was your reaction to finding out that we were going to be in Day of the Devs? And then what was your follow up reaction to realize that we're going to shadow drop in into Day of the Devs?
00:42:25
Speaker
I guess I need to reply that one because it was Blige's birthday and he missed that. Yeah. I mean, I learned i learned about it ah when we were already settled down in Italy somewhere. Yes, that's this true. For everyone's reference, I was super excited to get on a call and surprise them. And Blige wasn't there because it was his birthday.
00:42:48
Speaker
I mean, not just the castle, the birthday. It was on vacation. We went to Italy. Yeah. It was Halloween and Cyrene was enjoying way too much, giving the, this is going to be huge kind of thing and like dropping the viewership numbers and me going like, are you, again, not like the first contact, like, are you pranking me again? Is it this and is it is another prank?
00:43:14
Speaker
and Just like last time, has it all been fake? Do do I not exist? um But yeah, I don't know. It's really exciting. It's the us of now, when you're listening to this, know how it has gone somewhat, I guess. But I'm still somewhat in the tunnel of disease leading to the big drop where everything is decided. I don't know. not I know it's not really like that, but it feels like that sometimes. And I had to like and talk to friends to help me with like recording stuff, which is something like i wanted to I wanted to be a programmer, so I didn't have to like show my face to people. And now a lot of people will see me speaking about this weird game. And and it's it's been a bit wild. But yeah.
00:44:05
Speaker
And then I had the pleasure of the same thing that Sarin did to me. I did it to Flash on the chat a little bit later of like, yeah, they just gave me and some news and some numbers and I've released it. ah Grab onto your seat. And that that was fun. Although, if if I can be honest, I think that I first saw Sarin posting it into our Discord with something like, this is happening on this date.
00:44:34
Speaker
it to It wasn't really like deal with it, but it felt a bit like a bomb going on in my mobile. yeah Yeah, but she was intentionally vague a little bit with the posts even. Yeah, I tried to give Ferran something to ah like and reveal it all to you. Yes. Yeah, Ferran then wrote me and yeah, of course, we had the discussion. It was a similar thing with me. i I started calling people from Italy if they could land me their camera and so on. So yeah, pretty much ah the same thing. Yeah, lucky days. Yeah, I mean, it's it's funny, like we didn't manage. I think that's like the fun fact. I don't know if it got into the day of the best thing, but we still have to meet at some point.
00:45:26
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I've met Alan now. i I have not met Serene because of the like there's an ocean. Yeah, there's a whole there's a whole ocean between us. I haven't physically met Alan and I've been working with him for four a years. I didn't know that. Yeah, me too. Okay, so ah yeah, a cheers to remote work with people you have not met in person. It's been working great for us so far.
00:45:50
Speaker
ah the yeah and that's like these ah and You could connect the dots in a map of the four people who are in this podcast thingy right now, and it's like a big polygon. It's huge. There's a lot of distance between the four of us.
00:46:11
Speaker
Yeah, no, no kidding. I'm the one that spreads it out across the ocean, though. It's always fun trying to communicate times of day to fit on and block some like, it's like when this call started minus 11 minutes, or like, it's like two hours after our normal call. It's it's a whole Yeah, yeah, thousands zones are so straight, like I still get so confused about them.
00:46:40
Speaker
Oh yeah I had to deal with those for the dailies that was a fun part. but yeah yeah All the fun things that you don't think about when you're like sure let's let's figure out what procedurally generated content days and it's like alright do they refresh at the same time for everyone yes alright let's figure that out.
00:46:58
Speaker
um but no Is there anything else that we wanted to touch on other than please go get the game on Steam's Andor Itch? And also it's coming to mobile early next year. We could say that now? Yeah, it will. think I think that's it. By the time this comes out, if all of our plans have worked, you should also know the release date on mobile. Yeah, which is a number. Which is? A date. Date.
00:47:29
Speaker
It's January 23rd. It's definitely going to be January 23rd. No need to edit this. Yeah, Melanie, ah definitely keep this whole thing in and definitely don't ask me to do a Necro record later.
00:47:44
Speaker
um I don't know if this is in test or not. This is getting too meta for me. I mean, we could do a version of this where we save a date and we could do a version of this where we don't save a date and we can just choose which version to publish.
00:47:59
Speaker
Or we could publish this one. That's the funny option. Yeah, this is more fun. Well, I will leave this entirely up to Melanie's discretion. Our marketing campaign is now entirely up to the podcast editor to see if we got it right or not. All right. What are the first things that y'all are going to do once you're completely done working on lock digital? Oh,
Future Projects & Collaborations
00:48:23
Speaker
ah completely done. You mean like after mobile, after everything? After mobile.
00:48:28
Speaker
Yeah, I have the team at Isrope Games, which was not a part of Log Digital. This was my like personal excursion with Flash, working on 1 billion spells. We need to figure out what they're doing with that. We're planning to release a demo. Maybe this is an exclusive for this postcard. Not really.
00:48:45
Speaker
um But yeah, that's a project. And then we we have talked a lot with Flash about what's the next step for each of us. He has a great puzzle game coming that I have on my living room. And I would i should play this properly for him, which is called Hurt. And it's really cool. ah But yeah, we we have talked about what could we do in the future, either supporting each other in our separate projects or doing something together. or is locked down here. Who knows? ah It's a complicated thing to expand, probably. But yeah, ah i you tell me. obligge yes I expressed my interest in bringing you towards the world of video games. I don't want to rob you from the world of the paper pen and paper. But if we have any ideas, and we should discuss them for the future.
00:49:43
Speaker
Absolutely. like Like I told you in our chats, I am 100% up for it. I would love to to do more games with you. um And yeah, but I think that I will always jump in between, you know, like working with Uferan for video game and working on something physical for for myself. I think that I do need to have this balance. yeah I doubt that I'll become full-fledged video game developer. Smart. I mean, I've gotten a lot of the fascination for like the physical from your work. like I understand the coolness of doing something that you can like hold in your hands. That's something I'm going to have in the back of my mind and now for maybe I want to do something like that. We'll see.
00:50:33
Speaker
But it's a very different thing, and I'm a programmer at heart, so it's complicated. But yeah, we're definitely going to make an action platformer very stressful, not puzzle-y at all. That's the plan. That's the plan. And then, obviously, Dreckneck will suddenly be interested in in non-puzzle games.
00:50:55
Speaker
Okay, don't don't don't try to lead a song. Don't try to troll us. Okay, that was that was a troll. Okay, okay. Deal. But in an action platformer thing with hidden meta secrets, now that could be a dragnet game.
00:51:15
Speaker
um ah No. I mean, whatever we make, like, if it's something that me and Blech made, you're going to get the pitch. Like, it's 1,000% sure. Even if, like, ah it's very hard that whatever next project they do that is not One Billion Spells, because it's a very different game, is probably going to be Puzzle adjacent. And you're going to be the first people to see it, ah most likely. So yeah, you won't get, I mean,
00:51:47
Speaker
I was going to say you won't get tired of me, but I meant the opposite thing. Yeah. You won't get rid of me. Exactly. That's the concept.
00:51:59
Speaker
Any of you at that applies to everyone. Awesome. So ah where can people find you? You can find me online as Raindrinker on Now Blue Sky. very I mean, I'm very happy how much it's picking up, honestly. It's a new hope. and Yeah, I'm Raindrinker anywhere, and website, socials, et cetera. The studio is called Ice Drop Games. I also have a website. And I'm trying to make socials for it, trying to be a responsible brand owner of sorts.
00:52:32
Speaker
And yeah, DMs are always open, happy to chat about games, puzzle games, other games. And yeah. Yeah, you can also find me on socials. I'm using my full name everywhere, which is Blashe van Grazer.
00:52:46
Speaker
that yeah is Z with, I don't know how to say it, a poster of something like that about it. And yeah, I'm also on BlueSky and I also have my website which is BLACGRACAR.com. Awesome. Well, thank you for joining us, both of you. Yeah, thanks so much. It's a pleasure, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. A pleasure.
00:53:12
Speaker
And thank you for listening to the Trackneck and Friends official podcast. Our music is by Priscilla Snow, who you can find at ghoulnoise.bandcamp dot.com. Our podcast artwork is by Adam DeGrandis, and our podcast is edited by Melanie Zawadniak. Please rate and review us on your podcast service of choice, and be sure to tune in next episode for more interesting conversations.