Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Cockpit Conversations. This is a place where we share tips and strategies for not only getting hired, but getting the most out of your aviation career along the way. Additionally, we'd like to share thoughts on many things that we find interesting at 35,000 feet.
Speaker: Sit back, get comfortable, and welcome aboard.
Speaker: and greetings to the podcast. This morning, we're talking to Chris Riley. Chris is an interesting cat. in that he started his airline career after military at Delta, like a lot of guys, heard the Purple Siren song, came over and joined FedEx for a while, and then made a a somewhat unique decision that a lot of other people have been asking me about lately, and that was a decision to return to Delta.
Speaker: um It's not an easy transition, a lot of life-changing decisions in a short amount of time. So I thought it'd be fun to get it straight from the horse's mouth. ah future podcast, we're going to have Corey Klimko, who basically had a similar track with United Airlines.
Speaker: So for the last several months, I've had quite a few pilots reaching out to me going, am I crazy to consider leaving this airline and going somewhere else? ah There's a thousand inputs, a thousand variables, but I thought it would be extremely valuable to talk to some people that have actually done it.
Speaker: So Chris, we're glad you're here. Why don't you Tell me a little about your background and then kind of walk me through your your airline transition. Yeah, thanks for having me today. Really glad to have this opportunity to talk to some other FedEx brethren and and people who are on the fence who who might just need that extra nudge.
Speaker: um Quick background, I was coming off my instructor tour as a T-45 instructor in 2020. My old man was at Delta. It was where I was supposed to be. And I remember the world going crazy early 2020. All the hiring dried up. So still getting off active duty.
Speaker: Went to Atlas for a year and a half and flew seven sixes, which was actually a lot of fun. Really enjoyed it and said, hey, maybe maybe freight's for me. ah During my time there, got hired at FedEx summer of 21 and a few months later hired at Delta.
Speaker: And as most of you know, FedEx is the, hey, don't call us, we'll call you. Did I imagine that phone call? Delta was like, hey, you're hired. Let's go. Let's go get in class. So I had to take that one. So went to Delta, classed up ah in late 21, I got a phone and completed Indoc and then had ah several weeks off before simulators.
Speaker: Right about that time was when FedEx had that big system bid with real junior upgrades, big movements, things were booming coming off the COVID high. My friends there from the squadron and elsewhere were having a really good time. um So it seemed like a pretty safe place to be. um The pasture lines were still kind of healing from the 2020s and then those wounds there.
Speaker: So I made a really, really tough decision to leave Delta right after Indoc to go to FedEx. and And I remember that decision being really hard. Like I couldn't eat the day I resigned from Delta. was kind of upset about it. um You know, grew up around Delta with my old man.
Speaker: Kind of this this buzz that, hey, FedEx is a better place. Our family friends there have done well. My squadron mates have done well there. um You know, nice big wide body fleet. You'll have a great career there. It's safe, especially the events of 2020. I ended leaving and starting at FedEx there.
Speaker: in January of 2022. So big, big decision bit off a lot there was open for, you know, all my buddies on the triple seven or the MD seemed like that was a good deal. I'd flown the seven, six previously.
Speaker: um But as I drove to Memphis, I realized I got the 300 and then the life that entailed. um So that was my life at FedEx. And then from there, please ask away. Okay. So you never hit the line in a Delta the first time you left in doc.
Speaker: Correct. And I think that helped me later because I didn't really burn the full bridge maybe. And I know some people have and have been able to go back. So no, I think i I tried to do them a favor be like, hey, don't waste the assets on me. I gave them a full two weeks notice, which they were very gracious about. Actually, they weren't I would say they almost weren't surprised because people have always left Delta for FedEx. But I just encountered people being very gracious and saying, hey, ah thanks for playing. You've got to do what's best for you. But absolutely no negativity. And in fact, it almost hurt because everyone was so nice about it.
Speaker: I can tell you that back in ah the 2000s, after the Great Recession, a friend of mine that was a F-15 squadron commander,
Speaker: left Delta, ultimately go to Southwest. He'd been in the pool at Southwest Delta or at ah FedEx and Southwest, went to Delta, um Got through IOE. It was flying 75 for Delta when Southwest finally called.
Speaker: And one of the things that I think influenced his decision to leave Delta was really strong peer pressure. A lot of his circle had gone to Southwest. His mentors, you know, the early in late 90s or 2000s as they retired had gone there and they were.
Speaker: absolutely you know cultish is one negative connotation but uh look they're proud of their company they loved it they're like you gotta come in here and make this kool-aid this is a great place to work this is so much fun we played golf in vegas we' be having a great time and unfortunately you know as soon as he left it seems like southwest hit a long steady uh kind of uh flat spot there the air trend merger and things like that what was it that you were hearing about fedex Oh, I know my the point that I wanted to make was when he actually went to turn in his equipment, his hat, his manuals, they didn't really know what to do because at the time, nobody quit Delta.
Speaker: So obviously later in the, you know, 20 teens, 20 twenties, they did have people leading to come to FedEx. So they probably had a a little bit more expectation that that happened every every once in a while. But back when my friend did it, it was a it was a very rare occurrence.
Speaker: But back to your friends, what was it they were telling you about FedEx? What was the purple siren song that pulled you over? um You know, it's interesting from from peers and then from my dad's generation as well that were you know closer to the retirement side here in both sides of it. I mean, everybody shouts pension, pension, which we know how that all ended up on the passenger side. Nobody has those anymore.
Speaker: um you know wide body flying, interesting places, long trips, security, wide body pay scales, especially with the events of 2020, you know, good job security because freight always seems to move need to move.
Speaker: um And then plus some of the big movement that was happening at FedEx, you know, during COVID, it seems like guys were making a lot of money. There was a lot of movement and some opportunity for some progression. seemed like airplanes were coming. And in the midst of all that, there was buzzes of, hey, they're going to hire to 7,000 or 8,000 pilots. It seemed like there was a lot of movement going.
Speaker: And that seemed very stable. And not to say Delta wasn't. I would say out of all the legacies, Delta seemed the safest. But the past year carriers had certainly taken a beating. And I've watched my dad get forward after 9-11. I'd seen bankruptcy, 65, and his generation go through all of that.
Speaker: um Some of our family friends who were very senior on the triple, you know, in their 60s had lived great lives and seemed to be, you know, have good money, good lifestyle, ah you know, deviation bank, double deadheads.
Speaker: A lot of things that seem very gentlemanly about it. um And I feel like it's kind of the smoke and mirrors thing that, like you said, um it's hard to get full disclosure on both sides because every airline has their their pluses and minuses. So I feel like maybe some people don't have the truth in reporting you Maybe the the squadron syndrome where a lot of people come straight from active duty to that. And that's all they know.
Speaker: And it's the best thing ever because it's certainly better than being on active duty. um So, yeah, for probably a a rosy picture of that. And I think some people certainly it is exactly the bill that fits them. And, you know, they get the triple seven out of Indoc and they have lived a very good life the whole time. So um those were the kind of things I was hearing.
Speaker: That makes sense. ah I think one of the things that sometimes happens, too, when people compare airlines, ah ah we've got some trauma victims from the airline industry. Right. In 1992, Delta had their first furlough. it was a small furlough, a few hundred titles.
Speaker: But a lot of people felt like that kind of created a new culture or break the promise implied promise. ah Your father works under ah Leo Mullen for a while, who had a a very, I'd say people thought probably thought about him like maybe some of the discussions at FedEx. We hear about Raj now, a lot of negative backlash.
Speaker: um And then certainly 9-11 disproportionately affected the passenger carriers. There were furloughs and things like that. Furloughs can be extremely traumatic. One future podcast I'm going to do, though, is on people that have been through furloughs in that era.
Speaker: And as an interview coach, I found many of them when they talked about the experiences. Everybody seemed to find a way to survive. Everybody seemed to find a way to bounce back. and And I don't dismiss the lack of job security or the trauma of a furlough.
Speaker: as insignificant.
Speaker: But I also got the impression from people who have been through it that, hey, it wasn't as terrible as I expected. ah If you've never experienced that, though, or or youve if if job security is number one, I could see how, oh, they've never furloughed. Like Southwest or FedEx, that would have a strong appeal, the the implied security.
Speaker: sort When you showed up at FedEx, were there any Did you feel like your decision was immediately validated or were there some red flags where you kind of questioned your decision? So you're in NDOC.
Speaker: You've left your red and blue wings behind. You've turned in your double breasted blazer. You're in purple NDOC probably, what, two, three months after you've been in Delta NDOC.
Speaker: what What stuck out at you at the time? You definitely very welcoming culture or of, hey, you've made it. This is the best job, last job you're ever going to need. Welcome to the family. um You know, a lot of lot of heavy stores, people trying really hard to get there.
Speaker: um Big positive for FedEx is that room of people in dock was a lot of heavy hitters, a lot of wing kings, colonels. You know, some people have done some real stuff in the military and then anybody on the civilian side, you know, line check airmen, people who've been captains for a long time. um FedEx certainly vets and hire some heavy hitters. And you really got to give it to them there.
Speaker: and Not saying anything else else about the other airlines, but it seemed like the the group of people I interviewed with and I started with were some ah some pretty select ah individuals. so I felt lucky to be part of that. um So I still, the hardest part about switching for me was divorcing the, the, the sentimentalness of it all. Like people were like, don't, don't worry about that. You know, you got to think about your future here. Don't be sentimental about Delta. And I was trying to walk away from that. That was very hard. So if anything I could tell you, your viewers is, Hey, listen, you're hard. If something's telling you,
Speaker: you know you're doing the wrong thing, listen to it. um So I still had that kind of gnawing in my gut a little bit. um but But being an in-doc, obviously, you know good foot forward of the company, but um I knew enough about the airlines. i wish I had had the FOM maybe in the contract before I showed up there. And i started kind of looking at some things. I'm like, ooh, these work rules aren't that good, actually. ah RA, RB, substitution, like what are these things? Why do these exist? um And the kind the ah union was in contract openers at this point, and we're looking at them, and I'm reading them, i'm like,
Speaker: wow, this is all you guys are asking for? um Retirement? Like that pulled the highest? And I even noticed their scope wasn't part of that. And having come from Atlas, who now is Atlas CEO at FedEx, ah knowing very well what they can play on games with ah weak ah pilot working agreements, that started worrying me right there.
Speaker: um But I realized that just from looking at that and knowing the games they can play, that that maybe the ask on this contract opener wasn't going to be good. um I tried to put those feelings away and just go with it. But just something in my gut kind of told me that was not going to be a good time. But hey, press forward and made it through NDOC and then through training, you know no issues. Again, top caliber people, certainly on the flight ops side to work with. So that's something I'll always give a point to FedEx for and will always miss.
Speaker: But you'd already had 7.6 experience at Atlas. So you'd you'd made that transition from military buffoon like I was to, OK, solid co-pilot crew member, multi-crew airplane.
Speaker: um I think it's worth mentioning that, you know, that's not always an easy transition for people. ah i ah The guys that come in from the regionals that already speak for 121, well, they're just learning to fly bigger airplane. But at least for for guys with our backgrounds, that's actually um bit of a challenge.
Speaker: i But you mentioned you had no problems with the Airbus trend. Tell me about your first, I don't know. uh you're on the line with the bus were you on reserve were you a line holder and also are you were you a commuter during all this experience yeah great questions um i oh i was fantastic the both at lunch at gary were just awesome guys really really enjoyed it and that was kind of that almost was fanned the flames a little bit like okay i made a good decision these these guys are great and if i'm gonna be flying with guys like this i'm set um settled into reserve life and then i think i peaked at maybe 80 percent um there maybe in on the bus in memphis so uh
Speaker: Really, the only lines I could hold were kind of just two, three days on, two off, really non-commutable and hub turns pretty much. So I did a lot more reserve. Plus, I was still balancing mill leave. So i had that to kind of contend with as well.
Speaker: So yeah, a lot of RARB. ah Tried the R24 game once and was rewarded with hotel standby. So I never did that again. Yeah. And I was a commuter the whole time from Jacksonville, Florida. So at the time we had two seven sixes a day to get there. Those booked up pretty quick, obviously heavy Navy contingent here commuting.
Speaker: So I found myself on Delta quite a bit on a two leg commute to Atlanta. The domestic guys don't seem to get a huge deviation bank like the international guys do, but I would get a little bit here and there. could I could buy ticket to get to work on occasion. But I still dealt with the the realities of commuting quite a bit and then commuting in, you know landing at 10 at night on the beginning of the hub, the sort there and then, you know, starting at 2 a.m. m rotation when I did do a lot.
Speaker: What percentage of you're flying do you think? And I know you've done Freak with Atlas before, but. of Of the night-day delineation line, what what percentage were you working backside of the clock? that And I know you were junior on the bus, but Proxedad percentage? 90% of the time. Occasionally, we'd get a good day, Boise, yeah return, something like that. But um usually usually nighttime, ah you' hub turn to Fort Myers or to Shreveport or Fargo, that kind of thing.
Speaker: Sometimes you'd be rewarded with a day return or something like that. But yeah, it was 80% to 90%. Where do you um as you looked at your benefits, you've been to end of the boat. One of the things I've always heard is that FedEx health care is is outstanding.
Speaker: ah Unfortunately, I've got to test that a few times with a couple of back operations. And I had daughters that were cheerleaders that found a way to break the bone periodically. So we we've appreciated the buyout plan there and put that to good use.
Speaker: um For most of my career, I felt like I've kind of been compensated in the top band of our industry. I felt like I've been looking up until recently. ah What was your perception of the pay and benefits when you got in at getting hired in 2021? Were you satisfied? Were you excited about any of it?
Speaker: Were there ah even then shortfalls that were... um parent um I can't speak to the healthcare because I've been on TRICARE still as a reservist. So it seems like the people I worked with that were on it seem to have no complaints on that part.
Speaker: um With regards to pay, it was hard to get ahead on the domestic fleet here. um you know Obviously commuting, it was hard to pick up something draft. um 401k stuff, obviously the B fund is is much lower at FedEx versus some of the peers. So that that was kind of moving along. Obviously that the dangled carrot or the pension waiting for you, but you know, that's a check that you won't cash for a long time.
Speaker: um Hourly and you know, where I was going at the time, the majors hadn't signed new contracts. They were they were certainly in the hunt. So it seemed like that was on par, certainly a little better than Atlas. um But where it really got interesting was things like, hey, at sweet flight, you're ducking into Madison to get some freight, 30 minutes of pay. you know like So now the disruptions and things, which happened a decent amount, weren't really paying good money um or getting into substitution of other things. So that that was kind of eye-opening when maybe you worked pretty hard for the month and then you looked at your pay stub, you're like, you know i I thought I worked harder than this.
Speaker: I think I kind of ran a little short ah before everybody else moved the chains. But obviously now, like you said, looking up once the big three moved the chains, it was a big difference there. i'm like, man, this final wide body at night on the backside of the clock, which was supposed to be good pay for that, that pretty varsity flying, I would argue, especially some of the places we go.
Speaker: um And my buddies are making more money flying a seven three during the day, um you know, on a leisurely Florida turn. Well, um comparison is the thief of joy is what some people will tell you. But I would also say pragmatically, if you don't know what your compensation band is across the industry, you don't know what to ask for. and you need you need to be aware.
Speaker: um Certainly the flying at FedEx, especially as a junior guy on reserve, is going to be some of the more challenging and more onerous pairings.
Speaker: When When did the little light bulb go off on the back of your head that maybe maybe I should leave here? and And how did that come about?
Speaker: Man, that's the big one. And I i carried that bear for a long time. um I'd say an in-doc because of my feelings towards me missing Delta and seeing kind of some lackluster things about FedEx there. i I just put that in the map case and said, hey, deal with it. It's going to be fine.
Speaker: My buddies on the triple said, hey, system bid, you know, next one, you'll come over here the MD, you'll get, life we get a little bit better. And not to sound like I didn't do my homework and I didn't, I did do my homework on it. um I realized the domestic fleet at FedEx is very different than the international wide body. And I figured, hey,
Speaker: By your time, it it will get better. Um, you know, promise, so but I'd say about halfway during my time there and and a couple of things happened. So hiring was supposed to be, you know, a seven, 8,000 people. When I got the call for the class, I was asked, uh, do you know how senior you're going to get?
Speaker: And I was like, wow, this is going to be great. Um, so hiring started tapering off and then it looked like they were going to stop. Um, Fred stepped down and the airline started structuring restructuring into Drive, 2.0, which still nobody knows what those things are.
Speaker: um It seemed like things were starting to slow down real quick. And I said, oh, I'm going to be stuck here on r RA for a very long time. um Plus, I i was jumpseating on Delta all the time. They had gotten a new contract.
Speaker: Senior orders moving very quickly. And people from my original class were being able to hold captain and they were making good money on a new contract. And I just... I have no one to blame but myself for that. um But I, you know, regretted it every day, especially rode on Delta, looking at that right seat or even that left seat going, hey, that that would be me had I not left.
Speaker: um So that was a gnawing feeling in my guts. And, you know, I didn't even I didn't tell few people except some friends. I was thinking about going back. um That was probably the right answer. Were there any family ramifications when he came to the kitchen table and said, guess what, honey, we're going to I made a boo boo. I want to turn around and go back.
Speaker: um No, I'm a bachelor. So my dogs really didn't care as long as they got fed. and And I still had the reserve fund, too, with the Navy. So ah that was a huge support, which some people were lucky to have. And some people, your sole breadwinner is your only job. Those are two very different dynamics, for sure.
Speaker: um It was interesting finally telling my old man and some of my Delta friends that I was interested in coming back to Delta. The response was, wow, like you did all that. But a lot of the response from friends was, you know what, Chris, I'm shocked you ever left.
Speaker: Like, I hope you get called back. So that actually i would say the the reception to that was pretty positive. And that was before, you know, bad things really started happening at FedEx that really made that decision very validated. Was your decision when you were going leave FedEx only to go back to Delta? Did you apply to American or a United?
Speaker: uh, Delta only I, e because of very strong feelings I had towards, uh, the company yeah and where I wanted to be. Um, and it was just every day, like i said, jump seating on Delta to and from work. If I drove to Memphis, I drive right into runway 10 to eight and see Delta air fly Delta jets from the highway. You can see that hanger.
Speaker: Um, it was, it was like trying to go back to the first love. Um, and that's, that was the only place I remotely wanted to go to. And a big fear of if they didn't take me back, what what was next? I knew I needed to leave FedEx cause I, I foresaw some very bad things happening, but, um,
Speaker: I'm glad I'm glad it worked out. Okay. So, um, what I'm hearing is the main catalyst, the things going through back your head. First of all, it, maybe it's not as shiny as I thought it was looking at the contract, looking at the FOM.
Speaker: We'll work through that. We were in contract initiations. Um, stagnation is a big deal though. You didn't think you would be sitting reserve first officer Memphis based, um, For extended periods. We all understand everybody's got paid dues.
Speaker: So the expectations changed. and then And then just the reality of, oh yeah, night freight is a different it's a different animal. It's a little bit tough. um ah was How you treated, what your reaction was to that. So so that's an interesting insight.
Speaker: It weighed heavily. And and people people talk trash about Atlas and places like that. and And I was telling my crash pad roommates, couple were former Atlas. We're like, you know, we got treated better at Atlas, actually. Like maybe the pay wasn't.
Speaker: You know, amazing there, but we had amazing layovers and flew a lot of freight. But during the day, and even at night, you still kind got treated a little bit better. So that that was quite a stark reminder. um And again, mileage may vary. um You know, my buddies on the triple, you know, live rock star life and and they probably shouldn't leave that. But um I mean, those were all my personal factors. and And some of my other friends probably saw none of those.
Speaker: How long did it take for Delta to bring you back? About four months from that point. So, uh, you know, I kept updating my app and, um, you know finally got a, an invite there to interview. I didn't have to take the, uh, the, the cog test again. So I was given an interview invite, uh, March, early March. And, um,
Speaker: Gave me a bunch of dates. One day it was a week later. So I said, let's do it. I've already been hired here once. Let's try it again. um Ended up getting a coaching session with you all, just a quick top off to you know knock the rust off. um But I figured, hey, let's let's do it live and and get back in there. So hired back ah in early March and then classed up ah in April 23. Fantastic.
Speaker: um How were you treated in the second interview? You know, i it went better than I could have ever expected. um It really, and i had to coach myself to be, hey, walk in there with your hat in your hand, to speak. um and you know, humility and, uh, and kind of beg for forgiveness and then explain what happened. So, um, we went into the interview, uh, same kind of setup with, uh, uh, in this, this time it was a two HR professionals and one captain. Um, and we, I gave my same intro as previously as the last time i was hired. And then I said, Hey, this is where things got a little different and explained my really tough decision, um, to leave Delta and and was very human about it. Talked to them about not being able to eat the day I resigned, like how hard I took that decision.
Speaker: Um, and how hard it's been, how much I missed the Delta brand. And and that wasn't Kool-Aid. I was sincere about it. Uh, but I stuck with the story on that and then how much I wanted to do back. Um, and kind of put a bow on it with that. And then from there, I really didn't have any other questions because they, they have their questions. They ask you and we kind of went down the normal script. So the rest of the interview felt very similar to my previous one of here's the, tell me about at times and what would you do?
Speaker: Um, So again, very, very gracious from them. And I and i concluded with a ah nice, hey, thank you for the opportunity to come back again. um I'm wearing the same red tie I wore last interview that I got hired at.
Speaker: And I pulled out my wings from the first interview and said, I had was given these last in-doc, I would like to wear them again. And I could see the smiles spreading across the room and you know I think I had it. So um I remember going to lunch you know before they tell you what happens. um And I just was kind of sitting there shaking a little bit going, if this doesn't work, what now?
Speaker: um It was I did just remember saying, got God's control and and you did your best. And I remember going back to the interview area and they start pulling some people out that didn't make it. And I just sat there stone cold. And finally, they walked back with a stack of folders like previously and said congratulations. But a very neat touch this time was um all the interviewers came out and congratulated us all.
Speaker: And my interviewers came over to me and i just said, that was a fantastic interview. Welcome home. I think they're not even been more gracious. And I was kind of choking up at that that opportunity at that moment.
Speaker: I know when I've gotten calls from people, they're very, very concerned if they've left an airline about going back, how that reception is going to be. And, you know, I said, you know, early 2020, the world went a little crazy, right?
Speaker: code, the protocols. um We didn't know where things were going. And it would make sense in many cases that people were looking for stability. and and And the scripts kind changed. I said, I think that you're going to get a mulligan. I think they're going to be gracious as long as you put it with a humble attitude. And and your experience certainly validated that.
Speaker: That puts FedEx in a situation like Delta was back when my friend left. That's kind of new ground for them. People typically In my experience here, 23 years and as an interview coach, I'd say less than 10 people I know have have folded the 10 left to go to other airlines.
Speaker: um And now you were the start of maybe a kind of a wave of that going on. How were you treated and how did you handle letting FedEx know that you were going to transition away?
Speaker: Well, um actually, so back to the interview part, ah you know, the humility part and being willing to admit you did something wrong. um And I framed it certainly in the context of COVID and eight people are still wearing masks on airplanes. The world was a bit loony then. And I think they understood that. But i humility is the name of the game if you're trying to come back. and And I heard from many people, including a former chief pilot, that they never hire people back. So ah when I have told people about it, they are shocked.
Speaker: um So I'm not good, but I guess I'm good enough to hired by Delta twice. So not awful. um So with regard to the leaving FedEx part, I was probably one of the first five five to seven people to leave. And a few of us talked and, you know, we didn't think we were crazy. We told each other we're doing the right thing. And, you know, proofs validated that a couple of them are some instructors at United making big money. um You know, one just a little bit senior me is a seven, one captain already at Delta.
Speaker: And then several others are seven, three captains at United. So proof's been the pudding. There's still his life afterwards. The leaving part at FedEx, I thought I'd sign my death warrant as soon as I got hired because the, about the Yeah, a month before I got hired, ah ah a gentleman had also gotten hired at Delta and was terminated from FedEx for his Priya being pulled.
Speaker: um I believe was still probation, but they just pulled the rug out from under him, and that was that. So I was fully prepared for that to happen to me. I was out on middle leave for a week or two, just staying busy and received a phone call while I was flying. My cell phone buzzed and landed, and it was my fleet captain. Gotcha.
Speaker: But it was, hey, give me a call back. We got your prayer request from Delta. Don't worry, you're not fired. Call me back. So I called him back and he was extremely gracious and said, hey, um got your prayer request. understand you might be looking to leave. Just send me a letter with your dates. Make sure you put your dates up to... ah Your first date at Delta, um no harm, no foul. You're not fired. Us fleet captains went to HR and said, hey, you can't do this to our guys. It's a bad look. So, um you know, I think from the fleet captain side um and from everybody else I've heard anecdotally, um the fleet captains are very gracious about it. um And I wouldn't say there was any.
Speaker: Blame, scorn, don't let the door hit on the way out. Again, very, very smooth. I'd say hr side, the PAC didn't know how to handle it. I'm sure they're they're very polished now on how to accept this. yeah Well, you know, it's it's new ground. And as an interview coach, I've watched airlines go through hiring cycles and then I'm watching it flat spots and people leave.
Speaker: You know, nobody used to leave Southwest to go other places. And then in the mid 20 teens, all of a sudden people are going, well, I'm going across the street to American or Delta. And typically the machinery that's designed to do that hasn't been lubed or used before. So I, I do think it's worth mentioning. Yeah, there were, there were definitely some rough spots with the first guys that left guys that are on probation, but our fleet captains,
Speaker: Stood up for our guys and and tried to fix that. And and that's that's worth mentioning. i have a lot of respect for ah them trying to fix problem. Personally, i think the problem never should have happened. I'm not giving a pass on that, but ah it was nice to see folks that we come in contact with advocating for us so quickly.
Speaker: Absolutely. Trey Hollingsworth, my fleet captain, very gracious. um You know, I really know, again, no no problems with anybody at FedEx, ah you flat ops wise, you know fleet captain below for sure. all All guys just like you and I. OK, so let's recap for just a minute. How long were you at FedEx?
Speaker: That would have been 16 months ultimately. OK, so you spent four months at least on second year pay. Correct. Wide body, I thought. ah How long have you been back at Delphin now? ah Just shy of two years. So one month to go. So 23 months.
Speaker: OK, so you've had year two pay both places. ah the The question a lot of our pilots are going to ask, you know, how's that working out economically? You know, first year wasn't you know as big of a hit as I as I thought. I was ready for it. Granted, the benefit of.
Speaker: you know, a Navy reserve job to kind of pad that. So I peddled a little harder there, um but I peddled pretty hard at Delta as soon as I got there and training pay at Delta is very good. ah You'll, you know, like all the big three now, you'll basically receive 80 hours or so. ah So basically guaranteeing training plus per diem the entire time. So you actually kind of take a pay cut once you're off training because your per diem drops off a little bit um depending on, you know, what you're flying is.
Speaker: ah Hotels are paid for. So again, that added you'll see this be in the the first days, the attitude of you're lucky to be here, $4,000 month and no hotel covered, which, you know, is what I got in Memphis, um, versus eight grand a month, maybe in a hotel covered, um, you know two very different things. So, uh, you know, financially it didn't really sting as bad. And and once I was released to the line, um, know, I flew a bunch just to get consolidated, get off probation, um, which a Delta probation is a year or 400 hours. So, uh,
Speaker: I peddle pretty hard. I think I beat probation off by maybe a month early um because I was working hard at it. and Some guys get off of it you know eight months because they they work hard. um But you can make more money there and there's plenty of opportunity, plenty of straight time trips or or some premium if you're good.
Speaker: um Second year, i have I have blown FedEx out of the water by far. um And my pay scales now as a 737 first officer are pretty comparable right now to what I was making FedEx um within a few dollars.
Speaker: But i I'm crediting 80, 90 hours a month, and I don't feel like I'm sweating very hard to do it. um So the financial movement has been been upward. Profit sharing has been fantastic because you have an incentive to work hard because it will pay out very well on Valentine's Day.
Speaker: Oh, crap. Um, you know, thing I will make clear to the listeners, you know, all these airlines have airlines within airlines. For instance, I'm Oakland based and fly deadheads to Asia. I operate intra Asian. Then I come back.
Speaker: I'm not sure there's an airline in the world that can offer that kind of experience. And I know I'm lucky. but I've been here 23 years. And the question for guys in your situation, year one, two, three, four is, am I ever going to get there from here? And is it worth the tax I pay the circadian disruptions?
Speaker: So we talked about the pay a little bit. Tell me what about your days off, how you feel circadian issues, how you manage your commute and and compare the two as a, as a relatively junior pilot.
Speaker: Um, Kind of compare the lifestyle a little bit Share your thoughts. You know great, great question, Aaron. um I just even the the line of being on the line of FedEx for the bit of time I was, ah you know I'd sleep manage, but it would kill me for a day afterwards coming back off of you know four or five day hub turn. And again, you stagnation, you realize you're gonna doing this forever. You're not gonna get that good Oakland base or you know that triple seven life and get some change, which wide body everywhere is gonna be circadian disruptions, got it. But um you know hub turn flying, the traditional FedEx is not a way to live if if you want to if you're gonna be stagnant.
Speaker: But it would take me a day or two to recover from a FedEx trip. Um, Delta, nothing. I am, I actually like flying red eyes on occasion because they're very commutable and people don't want them. So they're actually really good trips. I do one red eye a month and I'm fine.
Speaker: Um, but it took me probably four months into my Delta career, uh, to stop waking up at three in the morning. My body was just getting me up at two or three in the morning every day. Um, and that was only from being on the line a year of FedEx. Imagine, you know, 20 years of that. So, um,
Speaker: Circadian rhythm stuff, no problem. On the seven three ah Delta, I've seen Anchorage all the way down to Aruba um and everywhere in between, but no big circadian swaps. um And again, like said, I'll do a red eye because people don't want to do them, and that's not even that big of a punishment.
Speaker: With regards to like your good lifestyle in Oakland, 7-6, or the triple guys, that the carrot of eventually getting there, um you know it's the pay your dues thing maybe. And then that's the thing for every airline, unless you have a really high social at FedEx or Delta. But I've never felt that at Delta, not a single day. I mean, sure, I'd like to go do something else later, but um I'm 50-something percent on the 737 already with two years in the company and getting amazing commutable trips.
Speaker: Um, but there's never been a carrot dangled of, Hey, put in your dues and you'll get this. Um, i I've, I've flown with captains who are furloughed, uh, who experienced extreme stagnation in the two thousands. Um, and I've never gotten the pay your dues line or the,
Speaker: ah any anything like that. They're always just, hey, it we hope you have it better than we did. um And, you know, a lot of the contract successes we have are born on their backs, the backs of my dad's generation, but never an attitude of that. Meanwhile, i did fly with a few salty captains at FedEx who would say, ah hey, you got to pay your dues around here. you got, I was on the panel for three years. You're lucky you get a window seat. um Had a captain tell me, ah hey, screw new hires.
Speaker: um You got yours. We don't need to pay them during training. You need to think about your pension. um And it really kind of caustic from from some of them, um but never really had that here. But with regards to my trips being commutable, I'm home right now for 18 hours between trips, decided to come home and I'm going back out again um because the commute for me is so easy with 10 flights a day ah back and forth between Florida, Jacksonville and New York.
Speaker: Atlanta. So um my trips, I like being on five days because they' that's less commuting, but I'll i'll do it two day here and there. So my schedule flexibility, and by virtue of being one of 500 something 737 FOs in Atlanta, it gives me a lot more flexibility to do what I want. um And there's a lot more trips in the pot.
Speaker: I don't seem to ever find anything I'm sad about. Well, one of the big marketing pushes that I've always heard pilots give pilots about working at FedEx has been the ease of commuting.
Speaker: You know, when you have multiple jump seats coming in every day around the country, you could almost always reserve it. You could reserve it three weeks out. No harm, no foul. If the flight gets canceled, you know, that that sounds really good.
Speaker: um Just in the last week, I've been doing some experiments. I made a two homes in Florida, and ah take care of my mom some of the time and then out in ah the Salt Lake area. And.
Speaker: Every time I've checked the Salt Lake jump seat, you're down to one flight now with the what used to be sometimes three, definitely two, they're full. ah The ease of commute that that people expect here has eroded as our system for us changed a little bit.
Speaker: Why am I bringing that up? We're not firing right now, but everything goes in cycles. We'll be hiring again. When I had people asking me in the mid-20 teens, should I leave Delta? Should I leave United to come to FedEx? My buddies say it's great.
Speaker: One big piece of advice I always gave him was, look, you've already got a an ID. You can list on our jump seats. Look at some of the trips the guys fly junior and go flying. Everybody says, i the week on, week off, upturn thing. I think I'd be great at that.
Speaker: Go do one. and And I say that not leading the question. I've never enjoyed that kind of flying. It's always been, I find it repetitious, um uncomfortable.
Speaker: I did a little bit of it Salt Lake to Oakland during COVID because it was sort of the least bad alternative. And I was actually senior enough for the first time in my FedEx career. I hold my hometown line, which was actually, you know, it that was not terrible.
Speaker: But I can't say I relished it. There are people who absolutely thrive on that. It works very well for them. A lot of people with small kids at home like it because they come home in the morning, take kids to whatever they sleep midday.
Speaker: I'm not here to say it's better or worse. What I will say is you need to be an informed consumer. Absolutely. And for those of you considering following Chris, you know, he said, well, they fly 70 o'clock hours, so the layovers might be shorter. I'll let him address that. i mean, it's ah i In full disclosure, I have a daughter at Delta and she's probably in Cancun twice a month.
Speaker: She lays over in Denver where her husband is an instructor ah in the United Schoolhouse and they have an appointment there. So she'll bid trips to Denver and actually be with her husband ah when he comes out of the simulator.
Speaker: um They're able to to make this work. What I tell people is go try it on. And if you're at FedEx now, i go, I think I'd like this. Jump seat. Talk to your buddies.
Speaker: go Go fly a simulated leg or two with them and go, go what do what do you think of it? bye It's a great opportunity once you've got that idea and you're in the caste system to actually try this on.
Speaker: And I'm amazed at how few people actually do that before they make a leap somewhere. um that's not going to give you the full picture of everything to do the company culture, but it'll give you a pretty healthy glimpse, right?
Speaker: And certainly chance to talk to crews and get their perspective to be a fairly informed consumer. um You mentioned, you know, and I've heard a little of the same stuff. Hey, you know, I came here, I carried the water jug. I was an engineer.
Speaker: I don't know if that's prevalent at all airlines. You've implied you don't get much of that five at Delta. but Can you talk a little about, How do you feel about having worked for having the FedEx m MEC and then Delta or the Delta m MEC?
Speaker: ah Not Delta, excuse me, but the ah the Delta Alpha m MEC. dead Do you see any major difference in the culture, in the tone of communications, in the advocacy?
Speaker: ah What would you say one's a stronger union group than others? Or how how would you describe it, having worked for both? I would say Delta is far stronger.
Speaker: um I wasn't at Delta during the the heady days of the contract negotiations and and how much work they put into that, but they delivered a pretty good contract that passed by a pretty overwhelming majority, which paved the way for a United American to move the chains as well on that one for the industry. Yeah.
Speaker: I really sure people can find something to complain about. I don't have anything to complain about. ah The work rules are very good, I think, and and for me personally. um One big thing here is disruption. So I mentioned that FedEx, you get 30 minutes for landing if you go do a sweep.
Speaker: um and Delta, I pray to get disrupted. I pray for a reroute because they always work out. And there is so much teeth to that in our contract that we get paid so much extra money and a positive space ticket home.
Speaker: If you release after your time, like there are things that make it not painful. So again, it goes back to the, I look at my Delta pay stuff every month. i go, wow, this actually was pretty good. So that's just one example there, but um we have good scope. We have hourly rates. We have things that are,
Speaker: You know, very well defined. And i I think our pilot working agreement is much stronger. um Whenever I've had a grievance for pay thing or something they did, ah it is very quickly responded to and they find a way to close it pretty quick.
Speaker: um And maybe not so much on the union side. When I need help at Delta from something, I can chat with somebody there at the company who's designed to answer questions. It's called pilot assist. And if I've got a problem that they can't fix, I go chief pilot. Like there's all these lifelines. I don't have to insight it and wait for something and then deal for months with a expense report problem. There's no expense reports or credit cards at Delta, by the way.
Speaker: um So I feel like the union's got my back on things and then the the company does too, but I don't feel adversarial with the company at all to begin with. i I know the guys at FedEx Alpo are working hard, but I,
Speaker: Didn't feel like they could hold the company accountable to things and and contract enforcement. I know those guys, you know, work hard, but I feel like the company could just walk all over them on things. And then the, the loopholes in the contract that they can exploit, like R24, turning that in hotel standby, the, the things that should be closed. I don't think they're focusing on, or at least word TA 1.0 where. they were just trying to deliver some big retirement plan um you know for the senior guys so i i do feel like dalpa represents um you know the junior to the senior as best you can and again that's not kool-aid uh but i have no complaints there well there is a certain amount of apples to oranges it is a different business in some respects but it is true right now we have taken a lot of our support staff and outsourced it downsized it uh passports you used to drop your passport off
Speaker: You'd get a passport back two weeks later with whatever visas you needed. You had to fill paperwork with assistance and all that, but you'd get done. um We've kind of been asked to do that on our own now, largely. inside We still have, I think, one person working in the passport office, but if they're sick now, I think they're out this week with COVID, for instance, you're kind of on your own.
Speaker: Just this month, I had almost $7,500 missing from no... with no i affiliated expense reports or anything that should have should have done that. All my expense reports for the last year have been closed out with but very nominal, small amounts one way the other.
Speaker: So, you know, it's ah it's a glitch. But as you mentioned, the onus is on the pilot to track the glitch down. And that involves an insight, basically a glorified email system.
Speaker: And you wait for a response. There is no bat phone. I will say our fleet captains are good typically about if you do call them, but you do get the sense they're overwhelmed at times, simply because, you know, and we've experienced this in the military too sometimes. I mean, people start to cut support staff and try to shift things down to computer-based systems. Inevitably, somebody is going to find something that goes through the cracks that doesn't quite fit on this computer program, and you end up with these problems.
Speaker: So that is ah of an irritant. I wouldn't say it's a reason to leave. I wouldn't say it's a reason not to come here. But I do think it's one of those things if I'm a i'm a pilot and I'm lucky enough to have a couple of opportunities, I'm going to ask some more questions. And that's the that gray area work, this stuff. Hey, how how much time do you spend taking care of little administrative things ah might be, you know, a factor in your decision at some point. And I know many people would scoff that and say, well, hey, job security is the big thing.
Speaker: I think we've proven the job security, right?
Speaker: there's no guarantees right we've seen atlases laid off fedexes reduced our guarantees contracts get moved things get changed there's big concerns ah about outsourcing so
Speaker: my recommendation and i've had this conversation probably with 100 pilots in the last year what do i do where do i go do i stay do i jump do i follow chris to delta do i follow cory to atlanta do i ride this out
Speaker: I remind people, go have a conversation with the guy in the mirror. Do you like this job? Is your goal to be 777 pilot flying around the world?
Speaker: Is it worth hanging on a few years? is that Is that something you really want to do? And maybe the answer is absolutely it is. ah Do you like the the ability to have a 10, 12-day single departure line and have a couple of weeks off?
Speaker: If that's really important to you, maybe it's worth the wait. Conversely, if you've got kids at home and you go, I don't really want to be gone 10 days, I'd much rather be out a couple of days. In fact, if you live in a domicile or close to a major hub or like you, you live in Jacksonville, but you all get 10 flights a day.
Speaker: I think the big thing you have to do is be very honest with yourself and not listen to people saying, oh, this is a good job or this is a crap job. But ask them the hard questions like, tell me about your job.
Speaker: Chris, show me your calendar. How did you make this work? And when you say things like, well, I left Atlanta last night to come home to do a podcast, to play with my dogs, to ah grab some fresh food from home. I'll be going back on an afternoon job seat to go back to work.
Speaker: Somebody might go, well, that sounds pretty awesome. Somebody else might go, well, that sounds like a lot of stress. So it comes down to the individual and the decision that they have to make about, is this going to be the best fit for you?
Speaker: So looking back, what do you think the biggest upsides have been to you returning to Delta and leaving 7s? you know it's a Every and one size does not fit all in this industry. and And for some things you can see all the roses or for the the downsides, it's death by a thousand cuts. And like you talk about expense reports, things like that, you you find the things that annoy you, ah the things that don't.
Speaker: So my commuter life might, you know, somebody might be like, hey, who cares? I want to live in domicile. So that argument is completely invalid and it doesn't help them. um So I didn't apply to other airlines either because of, you know,
Speaker: Notwithstanding my family connection to Delta, but, um you know, Delta just fit me better with location living in the South, like United wouldn't necessarily have. um The upsides, Delta, to answer your question, um there's been movement. We're hiring that could obviously always stop at some point. um The industry is weird.
Speaker: um There's something for everybody at Delta, I think. And even as a junior FO, even my buddies are super junior on the 717, still have a good life. And even on reserve, i was only reserve a few months.
Speaker: um It was not punishment. um yeah There are ways you can make reserve actually very good at Delta. um So my upsides ah for that are ah good quality life, good schedule. I can do trips the way I want to trade them out to be with some flexibility um and good compensation, good culture. I feel like we we deliver a good product and we are...
Speaker: We're very much on the on the way up, and I hope it keeps going that way. um There a lot of people who fly freight that hate being with people and you know don't want to fly passengers. and you know Good for them. that That works for them. I'm a social person. I like wearing the hat in airport, and I like handing out trading cards. That works for me.
Speaker: um You talked about flying a lot. I do block a decent amount, $600, $700 a year, which that's over double what you do at FedEx, but I like flying. And it's fun. That's what I signed up for. And I, you know, a 96 hour layover somewhere isn't necessarily fun.
Speaker: You know, if it's in Fargo or somewhere, um but I'm on this trip, I'm returning on, I'm going down to Punta Cana for 24 hours and Nashville for 24 hours. So am I really flying that much on that trip? So um you mentioned Cancun. I was there last week and Aruba a few weeks before that. So um there is certainly a lot of variety and a lot of upsides to going to work. So um I really can't find a lot to complain about. um there There just isn't. And probably spend a ridiculous amount of my own money ah flying my own airplane in my time off. Right. I go to work to make money and pay to do what I do professionally.
Speaker: So I'm like you. I love to fly. One observation I've had is that when I'm flying with the sun on my face, I'm Chris Perk. I feel like I'm a better pilot. I'm more engaged with the other crew member. I'm enjoying looking out the window.
Speaker: um I've spent 23 years here. I've spent a good bit of of that time on the backside of the clock. But due to the kind of flying I was able to hold, postal stuff, some day international,
Speaker: um ah I do enjoy the day flying. And everybody's got their own ratio. I would say, you know, yeah, I may fly more block, but my some of my favorite legs that I currently fly are an Arita, Singapore, which is a six or seven hour flight, sometimes eight.
Speaker: Uh, but it's a daylight flight and I'm looking out over the Western Pacific ocean and I'm enjoying it. Uh, Penang Taipei is another leg that we often fly, uh, in daylight hours. And I've remarked many times, gee, it's a lot of fun to fly, but I don't feel like hammered shit. So I'm not as concerned about the number of block hours as the conditions that flying.
Speaker: Again, your miles may vary. Every pilot's got a different, uh, a different chemistry and a different way of dealing with circadian disruptions. um anything about fedex uh now that you've gone that you missed were there things that you look back it'll be nice to have that here or i enjoyed that um i didn't have much of a deviation bank being on the domestic fleet that was nice for some flexibility sure and i could see a wide body guy how that's so a really good weapon a tool to get to and from work so that's kind of cool but with them messing with it maybe not um i do miss the maybe a little more of a squadron atmosphere uh there at fedex and and as you can attest to a lot of my navy buddies are there um lot of guys, you know, be call signs on the trip.
Speaker: It's just a little tighter of a group in that regard um because it's just not as big of an airline as 17,000 pilots at, you know one of the big three. So I do miss that. um And that's not taking anything away from the legacy side.
Speaker: But FedEx was was a tight group of of some pretty good professionals. um You know, that I'll miss the the the group of people. But um I can't say there's a lot else that I i miss that that Delta doesn't give me and better.
Speaker: Okay. um and I'll ask two more questions and and then we'll wrap this up. First one, is there anything back about the transition process back that surprised when you went back to Delta second time?
Speaker: yeah um You know, really nothing. I knew I was forfeiting, you know ultimately and there'd be almost 3000 seniority numbers. So, um you know, and I even mentioned that in the interview that I was okay with that, you that i goes back to that humility piece of being willing to say, hey I've made a mistake.
Speaker: I'm willing to take a little setback. um So nothing very surprising. i think reactivating my life and I had the same employee number, but having to call the HR and be like, Hey, I'm back. Can you react to me? All that that, that took a few days. um And it was, I really had this feeling of, it's almost like leprosy where you're like, ah, I'm back. I'm a quitter. Like, what what do they do with me? And, and you know, you don't want to tell everybody about you going back, but when you do tell people, they're usually like, wow, that's impressive. Like good for you. And I remember when I first came back, FedEx was not, listen, just kind of humming along and people are like, oh, that's interesting. Like we've never really rehired people.
Speaker: People don't come here from FedEx, but now two years later with many people leaving FedEx and there's there's one or two in every Indoc class I hear. I think there was five in the last one. ah People are just actually quite surprisingly like, wow, you made a good decision. Like bad on you for leaving, but you know you you made the right decision. Like time has validated that. So that is very much surprised me. um And again, how welcoming everybody was getting re onboarded and just you know welcome back to the family. No grudges. It's not like you you're divorced and then you remarried again.
Speaker: So that was the surprising part. I was prepared for a little bit more of that feeling of leprosy or, or you know, you you made a dumb decision, but actually quite the opposite. Well, I've told you privately, um i thought the decision was extremely courageous.
Speaker: and smart for you and it has nothing to do with well you'll know at 60 or 65 you know he's going to die with the most money it's not about you might get furloughed maybe delta's going to take a a downturn sometime in the future i personally think they're well machine doing well but the point is what i complimented you on was you had the guts to look at your situation recognize you weren't happy And instead of becoming a cancer cell and sitting around and polluting the area around you and being real negative, you said, i think I need to fix this.
Speaker: It's going to involve a little bit of eating crow going back to Delta. It might involve ah a little bit of financial hit. But I'm going to be honest with myself. And that that's a courageous decision. And I commend you for making that.
Speaker: It can be equally courageous for somebody to go, i'm going to gut it out here and ride this out because ah my vision is I want to be you know, seven, six captain at FedEx, living in Memphis and working in the training department. That's my goal. That's my dream. Great. um just Just be honest with yourself and and take proactive steps to do that.
Speaker: Absolutely. Any advice you would give somebody who decides to follow you back and go, okay, I made a mistake. Maybe they weren't dealt it previously or United previously. Maybe they weren't at a legacy previously, but now they're thinking about making leak.
Speaker: Closing shops, what would you tell them about the process? You know, when I, the people I did tell, i was thinking about leaving or when it was confirmed I was leaving, um you know, a few people said was crazy and you'd get furloughed. You're going to fly a lot. You're going to be on a 737, you know, all all kinds of random stuff. um And it was kind of a gamble then. But what do they say? The difference between genius and insanity is results. um I got results as soon as I I started flying to Delta and every month I do. And I haven't had to wait for, you know that that payback of, you know, on the panel for three years and in my life to get better.
Speaker: ah So it was a big jump. It's it takes some guts, especially to go back to your respective carrier. As Corey went back to United after much heftier seniority number loss than I did. um It takes some guts, but ah you know you and you know it works for you. If you're on the fence of about FedEx or going back to passenger carrier, maybe you weren't at a passenger carrier, that's a tougher one because because things could certainly get better at FedEx. But if you're longing for your old passenger carrier or to go to another one, I would say do it. And you can.
Speaker: you won't really know till later, but I think you'll get some instant payback. Um, you know, once you get trained up and, uh, and get flying, but you're, uh, it's up to you and what one man's trash, another man's treasure on some things. Um, but don't be afraid and don't listen to people that will be naysayers and that will try to tell you won't work out because, uh, that jump, uh, takes a lot of guts, but, uh, I promise it works out better. And, uh, I still have another 25 years left in this career to enjoy it. And the sting of all the movement and,
Speaker: Going through training again and pay is just completely in the rear view mirror now. And I'll be on the beach in Punta Cana tomorrow, and I won't be thinking about that one bit. So if you're thinking of making that jump, ah don't hesitate. That is the biggest thing I can tell you.
Speaker: Okay. Well, you've been very transparent and forthright. Thank you so very much for sharing your perspective. I hope this helps. I've had this conversation with so many people that I thought it'd be beneficial to kind of bring other people to the room and and let them get a chance to hear it from the horses now.
Speaker: We'll do this with some pilots probably from United and those who've left maybe go to American and get their perspective as well for balance. But ah Chris, I can't thank you enough for for helping us out and appreciate your time today.
Speaker: Thank Aaron. was an honor to talk to you and and good luck to those thinking about making that leap. Thank you for joining us today. This has been Cockpit Conversations with Aaron Hagen from Emerald Coast Interview Consulting.
Speaker: Have some ideas for future interesting episodes? Contact us at emeraldcoastinterviewconsulting.com with your ideas and inputs. We look forward to hearing from you.
