Transcript
Aaron Hagan: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. Today's subject is life after the airline. And one of my good friends, and ah I consider kind of a role model out there, is with us today. And he's going to talk a little about his career and the chapters in it. And I think of of interest to many retiring airline pilots, the chapter he's in right now.
Aaron Hagan: So well Dave, if you would, introduce yourself and maybe tell us about your career. and Kind what led up to this point?
Dave: Well, first first off, i I think I have to say I like your your background there.
Aaron Hagan: Yeah.
Dave: with with the Eagles and I feel a little guilty I don't have my eye love me wall set up next to my computer. oh Hey, I'm Dave Holmgren and I'm retired retired Delta Airlines.
Dave: I came off the 757, 767, last based in Los Angeles. And I retired close to two years ago. I'm i'm not quite 67.
Dave: so i'm an old fart i'm also a retirement failure uh after 33 years of full-time and part-time service in the marine corps and the air guard i retired from the military and now i've retired from the airlines and i just can't quit working i i love flying and you know that about me we've been friends since i was on an active duty gig at kindle back around 2005 ish so we've we've known each other for a while skied together a little um
Aaron Hagan: yeah. You're part of the reason that I'm in Utah now and part of that ah bad influence that got me to relocate out here to the mountains.
Dave: um i'll take that um so i started flying civilian and uh i'd uh caddy on a golf course all weekend and then Monday morning at 6 a.m.
Dave: I dragged myself out of bed and go fly for an hour at Teterboro, back when there was general aviation at Teterboro.
Aaron Hagan: Perfect.
Dave: On Monday morning, I'd go to school. My parents helped me, and I went to Florida Tech in Melbourne. Got my CFI there, taught there, taught at Teterboro, flew skydivers probably my junior and senior year ah while I was getting into the Marine Corps Platoon Leader Class Program.
Dave: When the Marine Corps went flight school in Pensacola, flew T-28s, I was one of the last classes to fly 28s in primary al and then flew T2s and TA4J at VT4 in Pensacola.
Aaron Hagan: Wow. didn't realize it. Okay.
Dave: So i I stayed in Pensacola my whole 27 months of an 18 month training program crammed into over two years ah and then ended up going to I met my wife through that too. We're still married after 40 years.
Dave: Went to fly the OV-10 Bronco in the Fleet Marine Corps out of New River, North Carolina. And the Bronco, I think you flew the, the you spent some time here.
Aaron Hagan: I flew the Air Force version. I flew the Air Force version a couple of years back in 89 to 91, last active duty squadron in the Air Force had.
Dave: Okay. Right. I didn't ask for it. I didn't want it and I had a great time in it. it was a It was an amazing airplane, is an amazing airplane.
Dave: And I really enjoyed that opportunity. And that's kinda how aviation is for me. I haven't really met too many airplanes I didn't enjoy flying.
Dave: So I'm a little twisted up there when it comes to that. After my active duty gig in the Marine Corps, I went to U.S. Customs Aviation. I had discovered U.S. Customs, DHS now, through counter-narcotics work that we did in the Bronco down at Homestead Air Force Base.
Dave: We worked with the customs dudes, and I thought that was pretty interesting.
Aaron Hagan: Yes.
Dave: And I thought I'd be able to... i' be able to
Dave: that that I could get an airline job at any time. That was kind of stupid thought, but I've had a lot of stupid thoughts. ah But I didn't want to be 60 and look back and go, gee, I wonder what that federal law enforcement job would looked like.
Dave: I stayed there for about 11 years. As I transitioned into the Air Guard in Tucson, I was flying out of Davis-Monthan Air Force Base. And after after my time at customs, I went to Delta.
Dave: Got furloughed after about a year with 9-11 and three years furloughed. Spent that time scratching around for flying jobs.
Aaron Hagan: Thank
Dave: I did some post-maintenance test flying in C-130s. um and
Dave: pause Pause for brain freeze. um Spent some time flying functional check flights C-130s for air ink after major maintenance.
Dave: and did some contract fighter flying in L-39s, L-59s and Alpha jets for an outfit that was called Air USA.
Aaron Hagan: Thank
Dave: Really interesting stuff. So we were trying to keep a roof over head, but I managed to keep flying. Then I went to Where I met you, i was I was flying out of Pennsylvania in the 193rd Special Ops Wing, flying EC-130s, Commando Solo, Senior Hunter missions, and went to an active duty thing at Tyndall.
Dave: We met there, and that led me into my next flying gig. This is a long answer. i'm sorry. I think your eyes are waving over.
Aaron Hagan: No, no, no. This is good. this It's good context. I think it's important, too, for a lot of people to realize that the the people that this podcast is aimed at are a lot of the pilots who went through that, what they would sometimes call the lost decade after 9-11, whose retirements got chopped up, who had maybe a bumpy ride, kind of like he did being furloughed.
Aaron Hagan: But I also think this is valuable for a lot of the younger folks, like my own daughter, who, you know, Was a CFI, went straight to a regional, put in dues, went to a legacy, went to another legacy, happy ever after.
Aaron Hagan: um Life's not always linear, right? Especially in aviation. And I think you're your biography adds a little context to that.
Dave: ah
Dave: it It has been interesting and and it has not been linear. Three years of furlough, didn't didn't plan on that, but it got me into jobs that I wouldn't have found otherwise. 30 years in an airline, I think I would have poked my my eyes out. 20 couple years was was probably enough.
Dave: ah hu So I flew the contract stuff and did some part-time work at the Guard and came back to Delta, did a few more years of military service, full-time, part-time, ended up finally earning an active duty retirement after 33 years of full-time and part-time.
Dave: And Keflat,
Aaron Hagan: How old were you when you got that first check? How long that take you?
Dave: again,
Aaron Hagan: How old were you when you got that first retirement check? How long did it take you to get that equivalent?
Dave: oh When did I get my first military retirement check? Probably 10, 12 years ago.
Aaron Hagan: So you were mid late OK.
Dave: Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: okay
Dave: So it had to be 20, yeah, 2010-ish around then.
Aaron Hagan: okay
Dave: At Delta, I had Plue right seat on 319, 320, 757, 767.
Dave: A little bit of time plumber on the seven twenty seven at first ah And then I took my first captain seat on the A220, the Bombardier Airbus A220, brand new airplanes. so They're still getting them, but I remember going out to pre-flight and thinking i could I could lean against the gear and not get grease on my white uniform shirt.
Aaron Hagan: Thank you.
Dave: They were that new. And that was that was kind of cool. i'll Probably one of the first times I've flown a new airplane. I do GA flying. I've had a couple of ah experimental home builds. First, a very easy and Thorpe T18. I currently fly a single seat acrobatic biplane and I'm working on a Formula One race project and I race Formula Ones and biplanes.
Dave: Used to race at Reno and hope to be racing at Roswell next year in my own airplane.
Aaron Hagan: um You came off, you were actually, you retired off the 7.6, didn't you?
Dave: I did.
Aaron Hagan: Doing the Honolulu runs. but So finally, finally caught that legacy airline lifestyle. Took a little while, but but but you got it.
Dave: I did, and and it was great. And my my last flight, day before my birthday, was the red eye from Honolulu back to LA. Had my wife and son on board, and I believe I squeaked the landing.
Aaron Hagan: Thank
Dave: Nobody will tell me different. And it was it was actually pretty emotional. So i day before my birthday, they they let me captain a 767, and the day after my birthday, I i couldn't even...
Dave: They wouldn't even let me spell jump seat, much less but let sit up there. So I'm no longer competent by by virtue of my age. I'm not bitter.
Aaron Hagan: yeah One of the questions I had to ask you was what kind of flying were you still doing when you were an airline pilot? And you kind of alluded to that. You you ah spent a lot of time doing some, I think, higher adrenaline type activities, acro, air racing, training.
Dave: Guilty.
Aaron Hagan: Yeah, ah ah cant and that's interesting. But I think it's an important context here as a lot of pilots are listening, going, hey, what do I want to do when FedEx or Delta or American take away the toys? What do I do with myself?
Aaron Hagan: um And there's as many different answers for that as there are different people. But I think it's important to little context. You have... always demonstrated to me a real passion for higher adrenaline kind of sports.
Aaron Hagan: You were a ski patroller at Park City when they still did the amateur stuff.
Dave: Oh,
Aaron Hagan: You're a very accomplished skier, so outdoor recreation. You keep yourself at a high level of fitness. um So it kind of makes sense that as you reach the end of one career, there's still there's still some energy left.
Aaron Hagan: um
Dave: i mean
Aaron Hagan: When you were doing the air racing and and the other thing, ah it may be a silly question, but what's your motivation? what What pulled you into that? How did you get into it? And how did that mix with your airline flying at Delta?
Dave: It was a type of flying I'd never done before. I was flying my Thorpe T-18 with friends and ah ah group of Thorpe pilots were going to go to Oshkosh and celebrate the 50th birthday of the Thorpe design by doing some flybys at the Oshkosh Air Show.
Aaron Hagan: Thank you.
Dave: And i went to go get a formation certification had to go to Reno Stead Field to do that. That's where the check pilot was and, uh, rookie school had just finished.
Dave: And I just came to the realization that this thing I had always thought was so far above and beyond anything I could hope to do was really pretty attainable, uh, at least at the, at the lower levels of, uh, formula one or sport class racing.
Dave: And, Once I decided to go for that, a friend offered me his Formula One Cassette racer. and that' And that's kind of flattering that somebody thinks you can do something with his airplane that he'd like to do.
Aaron Hagan: That was Creighton, right?
Dave: but
Aaron Hagan: Who we lost?
Dave: That was crazy. And I flew his airplane for a couple of years.
Aaron Hagan: Yeah.
Dave: I flew it in Reno two years and I flew it in Spain and in Tunisia. ah And didn't embarrass myself too badly. And why do I do it? Because it's it's fascinating. I mean, I'm probably never diagnosed okay never never diagnosed with ADD or ADHD, but I probably have it. And what I've found in and racing is it's a ah level of focus that I've that i've never seen, I've probably never experienced anywhere else, except maybe landing on a carrier.
Dave: the The world goes away. The only thing that matters is what's around you right now. And that's, I think it's actually calming in a sense. And as much as the as there's an adrenaline rush during some of it, there's just a such a high level focus that it that's addictive more probably more than the adrenaline is.
Aaron Hagan: Well, the reason, ah again, I'm feeding the straight lines here because I think that you've always oozed a certain passion for this. And I know when I broach the subject with um pilots that I know that have looming retirements,
Aaron Hagan: Um, and I say, Hey, it's a new game out there. There might be some possibilities after, you know, you get some pretty visceral reactions of, Oh shit, that's the last thing I want to do.
Aaron Hagan: did no fricking way. I'm going to be on the boat with my grandkids or at the beach.
Dave: right
Aaron Hagan: And then I have lots of people that say, Whoa, Oh yeah, I've already checked out net jets or I'm looking at this, or I've got a friend. So, um, It is very personality dependent and one size doesn't fit all.
Aaron Hagan: But what I do think is remarkable is this post-COVID hiring surge, which is now starting to abate a little bit, as that really drew a lot of talent ah out of the regionals, out of the military, into the legacies.
Aaron Hagan: and maybe the airlines had to dig a little bit deeper, suddenly corporate, who traditionally had their own feed of people and their own network, They suddenly found themselves and way in a little bit of a lurch without the talent around that they traditionally be able to pick from.
Aaron Hagan: And that opened their eyes a little bit to, hey, there's a whole group of accomplished aviators out here that for legal reasons can't fly 121 anymore, but might still be able to give you a five to seven to 10 years of good service.
Dave: which is more Which is more than you'll find, then which is more than they'll find from the young guys who are trying to move up and up to the bigger equipment.
Aaron Hagan: it's Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: It's definitely, you know, they the carrot and the stick are a little bit different, right? If you're trying to motivate 25-year-old and you threaten his job or you threaten his paycheck with, well, if you don't take this trip or whatever, you're going to have a certain kind of response.
Dave: Right.
Aaron Hagan: If you do the same thing to a 68-year-old entire Delta captain, he's probably going to tell you to shove it, right? So um it doesn't work for every person. operator But for the quality operators, I think what I've seen is ah is a shift in the opening their lenses and kind of at least giving guys that they maybe didn't look at in the past a definite second look.
Aaron Hagan: The fractionals have certainly been at the leading edge of that.
Dave: Right.
Aaron Hagan: um So the next question i want to ask you is you're flying along, you're going to Hawaii, you're kite surfing on Maui, you're skiing with me, you're having a great time. When did the little thought go in one ear,
Aaron Hagan: hey Maybe i maybe i want to keep getting a paycheck for fine after this Delta gig is over.
Dave: That thought has probably been in my cranium for for some time. I don't think I started doing anything about it until um six months, eight months before before my 65th.
Dave: Built a LinkedIn profile, started refreshing my resume and going through it again and again and again, trying to keep keep it to one page, oh but capture as much as I could.
Dave: in there and make sure in the meantime that I was consistent with my spelling and punctuation, oh showing that attention to detail that some of the operators like.
Dave: Probably six months before retirement is when I got serious about it.
Aaron Hagan: What'd you do to prepare? You mentioned the LinkedIn profile, updating the resume, what else?
Dave: Probably probably, i mean, you might jog my memory, but probably not too much more than that. I i did get a part 135 study guide and started looking at it and and trying to pay attention to the ins and outs and alternate requirements and fuel requirements.
Dave: And the old
Aaron Hagan: we talked a little We talked a little bit too, just to limber up the the lips on, hey, why a 65-year-old retired Delta captain would be a great fit and a phenom or you know in this particular operation.
Dave: Yeah, I mean, making sure that my mindset wasn't, well, I'm not going to clean an airplane. I'm an air i'm a captain. I'm not going to clean an airplane or slinging luggage. I'll let the copilot that. that's Fortunately, that's never been me, so i didn't it wasn't an act I had to put on.
Dave: ah But yeah, our Art talks about that.
Aaron Hagan: Well, there's ah there's definitely some airline stereotypes, just like there's fighter pilot stereotypes, marine stereotypes, military pilot stereotypes, et cetera, et cetera.
Dave: Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: And the stereotype in the corporate world of the airline guy is he doesn't know how to file a flight plan. He doesn't, you know, doesn't want to touch the catering, doesn't want to clean the lav. And, you know, a lot of those things are all part of the job. And we'll we'll get into that a little bit more.
Aaron Hagan: We're talking about the nuts and bolts of it. At the same time, if you're the kind of guy who's pulling a ah racing biplane out of the hangar on Saturday to go chase pylons and used to flow push jumpers out of a 182, you know, I think there's a lot of us who've gotten our hands dirty at various points in aviation. And it it's kind of fun, right? I mean, that's part of it. Yeah.
Dave: Yeah, I probably still got some grease under my fingernails.
Aaron Hagan: Yeah. of
Aaron Hagan: yeah
Dave: and But racing, yeah you had brought up the racing before. That was the networking that that helped me find the first job I took after retirement.
Aaron Hagan: So again, I always say the next person you meet is the most important person you're going to meet. you don't always You don't always know, you know, that old Kevin Bacon, six degrees of separation. These people you're going to bump into in an airline lounge, on vacation, at the FBO when you're out there flying in a Skyhawk or a Cirrus.
Dave: Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: Sometimes the connections are accidental but become very important. So...
Dave: Oh yeah.
Aaron Hagan: Yeah, just ah ah not to push the interview coaching thing too hard, but it's all an interview, right? When you're out there in public, when you're out there meeting people, making sure you you understand, hey, this, and I try not to be mercenary about this.
Dave: yeah
Aaron Hagan: It's not like you go out and go, oh, I'm going to be nice to people because one day they're gonna be able to do something for me. That's not why I'm nice at all. But, you know, I've, I've,
Aaron Hagan: I'm a little less adrenaline seeking than you are, but my satisfaction in general aviation right now comes from doing angel flights, taking some of the cancer patients or people getting treatment here in Utah at some of these leading cancer centers and going out to more rural places in Montana, Idaho, or Northern Nevada and bringing them back or getting em back from treatment over there.
Dave: Right.
Aaron Hagan: Um, But they the circles that you overlap with, you know, when you when you start getting involved in any of these aviation organizations, you and I are part of a social club of ah of old aviators. that's Those are important too. You know, anything that you've got that allows you to network and maybe start asking the right questions to people that are in some of these niches is is generally a good idea. Yeah.
Dave: one of the things that has been ah an enjoyable part of my professional and personal development is getting away from the, the, the laser focus on, on what I'm doing next in the military and,
Dave: and where, you know, what me, me, me, what I'm going to be doing and what's going to help me. One of the things that I've loved has been sort of expanding my peripheral vision and learning to listen to people because everybody's got a story.
Dave: And I'm not the most social bird out there, but there are some fascinating people. And and I've been a lot of places where I can just be a fly on the wall and be as happy as a clam doing it, just absorbing the atmosphere. And this this, you know, old dude sitting next to you in the airport, it could have been, it could have been, wasn't in my case, Chuck Yeager.
Dave: There are crazy stories if you just open your mind and and smile and and listen. And I've had the chance to do that. And that's been, that's been huge.
Aaron Hagan: Well, let's go back to, okay, I want to do something past 65. How did you select the jobs you applied for? What was what was your criteria at the time?
Dave: um My criteria at the time was probably not the smartest one and it was, where can I get hired? ah And I pretty much took the first job that popped up for me.
Dave: There were some pluses, there were some minuses, and I ended up only being out of a job after my birthday for about four weeks.
Dave: and There was no rush. I didn't have to rush. I mean, you can become stale six months, a year or more after you after you quit flying. But I had enough time to look around a little more.
Dave: I went to a 135 operator out of Vegas based on a ah reference from a friend. And the the good part about it was i learned fly Phenom 300.
Dave: and I learned a little bit about part 135. also, they paid. Because left that job,
Aaron Hagan: Who paid for the title? Did you have to pay or did they?
Dave: i because i left that job before the training contract had run out, I paid back 60% of it, 60% of a pre-agreed figure for for training costs.
Dave: and And at the time I was happy to pay it back ah because there were there are some shady operators out there. I'm not saying this this outfit was shady, but the maintenance wasn't at a level that made me stay comfortable.
Aaron Hagan: And you also,
Aaron Hagan: you did pay the money back, but you also had a landing spot. That type rating was getting amortized with an exposition, right?
Dave: Yeah, it was.
Aaron Hagan: The point I would make for people listening is don't recommend you take your retirement check and go out and immediately start buying type ratings to try to buy your way into a job.
Dave: that shouldn't be
Aaron Hagan: Yeah.
Dave: You shouldn't need to do that if you're a qualified and competent aviator.
Aaron Hagan: Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: Right. ah There may be a training contract or hey, we'd like to amortize this over a set period of time. And, you know, you can negotiate that deal. And I don't think that's unethical at all for companies could spend 1520 30 $40,000 type to want to that. Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: to to want to do that
Dave: Hey, if you're going to go to Gulfstream school, it could be 100 grand.
Aaron Hagan: yeah
Dave: That your company is going to have to pay for that. And yeah, I wouldn't feel good about,
Dave: i would expect to have to sign a training contract if I'm going to a school that expensive or or some kind of negotiated agreement.
Aaron Hagan: yeah
Aaron Hagan: um Well, let's say you mentioned the maintenance. ah Okay, so I've rinsed off all the airline captain, holy cow, I'm going to work doing some 135 work.
Aaron Hagan: What'd you like about it? And what did you find challenging initially?
Dave: I liked the new way I had to approach aviation.
Dave: The outfit I first went to had a dispatch department and they said, you're going to go here and you're going to use this route. And I go, okay. So it was kind of sort of a halfway airline-ish and in that regard.
Dave: But I still had some more choices. and less support from the airlines command center, less support than you would have with an airlines command center.
Dave: I was seeing lots of little airports again and i'm getting paid to go there and getting the opportunity to meet some more people.
Aaron Hagan: yeah
Dave: I like the tips, ah which is, you know, is that embarrassing or not? I don't know, I'm a grown man and somebody's handed me cash money. Hey, thanks, Dave. oh and well i'll take it
Aaron Hagan: yeah
Dave: I can go buy new guns or ammo or skis or a new kiteboard or something with it and and not have to feel bad about spending that money. um the
Dave: The maintenance aspect was something I wasn't crazy about. And also when scheduling didn't turn out to hold up the agreement that they had made with me in terms of, you know if I was on a seven on seven off schedule, how come in November they've got me scheduled for 23 days straight?
Aaron Hagan: Yeah, well, I think that pilot shortage
Dave: I wasn't okay with
Aaron Hagan: that we talked about that lust for pilot flesh was there were everybody was trying to to impede. you know I think a lot of recruiters just flat add like flat out lie, right? Or or were very optimistic and and your story is not unique. And I think that's one of the things that for people that are considering this, they need to understand um You don't always have a union fighting for you.
Aaron Hagan: You don't have a contract that says only this, this, this.
Dave: Right.
Aaron Hagan: And that means one of of a couple of things. It means you either need to say, okay, I'm going to get beat up a little bit, but I'll take the extra money or this is worth it to me. Or you need to be prepared to self-advocate or walk if you if they're not meeting the obligations, which is sound kind of that was kind of what you did in this case.
Aaron Hagan: You found another landing spot. But there's a lot of pilots out there that aren't used to being confrontational. you know In the airline world, what do we say? And I wish I could have had a career like this, but the chief pilot never knows your name. Nobody knows you. It's the greatest thing in the world.
Dave: I've heard that one.
Aaron Hagan: are
Aaron Hagan: you're not always going to be able to live like that in a 135 operation. You're going to have to occasionally say no or hey, that's not what we agreed to, or I think we need to sit down and we need to talk about this.
Aaron Hagan: So you need to have a realistic expectation of you might have to be a little bit more of your own advocate as you get into this. And for the young guys, now at different edge of the spectrum, I get guys all the time that come to me and say, I got fired by operation from South Florida or Las Vegas because I wouldn't take a trip.
Aaron Hagan: Is that going to stop me from a career? And what I always tell them is if you've worked for two or three 135 operations and you haven't been fired yet, that tells me you probably don't have a backbone. right because at some point, some of these shady operators might push you or ask you to do something.
Aaron Hagan: And that is one of the nicer things about if you're going to tiptoe into this side of aviation, doing it after a long successful airline career because you've already got the credibility, you've probably got the financial backing that you don't have to have the job.
Aaron Hagan: And I think it makes you a a safer and a more professional pilot out there in the system because you don't feel you. It's harder to push a guy who's kind of got the world by the tail.
Dave: um And I've been um been blessed in that regard. As you describe it,
Dave: i was successful enough at the airlines and for long enough that I didn't need this job. I didn't need it to to keep the roof over my head or to keep food on the table.
Dave: I do it because I like the money, but especially because I like the work. And that is a... it's good to be in that seat.
Aaron Hagan: Yeah. Well, I think it's important to kind of have your limits walking in. You know, we both flew ejection seat airplanes a long time ago. And one of the things we talked about is, hey, the ejection decision is not made in the heat of the moment.
Aaron Hagan: The ejection decision was made on the ground when you were thinking about, if I ever see these parameters, if it ever gets to this point, I'm jumping out of this airplane. Because with the temporal distortion and the heat of the moment, the emotions, it's going to be very difficult.
Aaron Hagan: I think for people getting into 135 or 91 owner operator, you need to already have your quitting speech rehearsed. You need to already have your I'm not flying into Aspen in the snowstorm because you paid me to get you there safely, not to get you there.
Aaron Hagan: I can't get you there safely. Therefore, I cannot perform the job tonight.
Dave: Right.
Aaron Hagan: And if you do that a few times in the mirror or mentally and you're prepared for it, when that moment comes, if it comes, and I hope it doesn't, but 23 years in coaching, everybody's a great boss until they really got to be there for this one thing.
Aaron Hagan: if if you just help me out this one time, right? And, you know, unfortunately, our our certificates are fragile, our bodies are fragile, our reputations are fragile.
Aaron Hagan: And we have to we have to protect those things, maybe with a little more vehemence than the employers.
Dave: Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: um We don't have a union anymore. We don't have, and we don't always have the the network of peers, right? You know, you can, get on a chat group at your airline with your fellow pilots and go, hey, they asked me to do this. Well, that's fucked up.
Aaron Hagan: We're not doing that. Check the contract, call the union, do this. You know, you immediately get your peer support. ah It's not always the case. Certainly not in a, in a opera.
Dave: Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: And especially if you're in a situation where there's uneven motivations, you know, I talk a lot about equal situations with uneven outcomes. ah you're paired up with a 30-year-old guy with two small kids at home.
Aaron Hagan: And the boss says, if you guys don't take this trip, I'm going to fire you both and get a new crew. And you're thinking, okay, well, I'm probably going to be skiing a little bit more this year. Maybe I'll put in an application, see if I can find something else.
Aaron Hagan: And this guy's worried about... paying his car payment and his house payment. So same event, very different outcomes. Your peer group may not always be the same, have the same metal that you do.
Aaron Hagan: So these are all things to consider if you're going to go diving into this.
Dave: And ah that's absolutely 100% correct. And I think that corporate aviation has, at some level, a lot of corporate aviation probably responded to that, you know much as the life flight helicopters, not a specific corporation, but the life flight industry has sort of responded reacted to their really high accident rate when they would shop crews one crew says no man the weather's too bad i can't go and so the dispatcher reaches out to the next crew and says hey will you go and they go okay and they die um and i think that they're the pendulum has shifted a little bit that
Aaron Hagan: Mm-hmm.
Dave: I hope, you know, my my experience is limited. I've only been with three operators so far after airlines. I haven't seen that much, that kind of pressure.
Dave: And that's good, but it's I'm sure it's still out there. I know it's still out there.
Aaron Hagan: I know it's there in spots. I also know that you have a physical presence about you and an aura that probably precludes some of that. I'm not saying that your operators will push another pilot, but I don't think it would necessarily matter knowing you, which operator you worked at. you're Your limit will be your limit.
Aaron Hagan: I just think it's important for some of the pilots listening to realize It is a, it's not the wild west that it once was, but there may be a point that you have to bring up a limit and it it's not gonna be delineated in a contract somewhere. It's gonna be it's to be your line.
Dave: And I have had to say, no, I'm not going to go here.
Dave: I was just thinking about it three times in the last two rotations. I've had to say, I'm not going to Teterboro tonight. the Oh, what, huh? uh the crosswinds are out of limits for this airplane and let's go to uh white plains or let's go to LaGuardia it wasn't LaGuardia uh look we could go to Newark we could get in there but uh I'm not going to T-Row and I went oh uh okay well let's do this uh Rochester no we can't get into Rochester can you go to Buffalo
Dave: And you you pull it up and yeah, okay, we'll go to Buffalo. All right, we'll we'll send a Suburban with the with the nurse in the Oregon and they'll meet you in Buffalo.
Aaron Hagan: Perfect.
Aaron Hagan: perfect
Dave: You have it, but i am fortunate to be at a good operator right now that where they listen to the pilots because they know they don't have a dispatch department. And they tell you in the interview, we need you, the captain, to...
Dave: be ready to say, okay, I can get this mission delivered to New Orleans, but I'm going to have to take the airplane to someplace 200 miles away to get out of the weather or to get it in hangar that's not available in New Orleans. style They'll go, really? You got to take the airplane to, okay, all right, be safe.
Dave: Um,
Aaron Hagan: You've described this operation. I'm going to we'll get into that a little bit because I think this sounds, first of all, I think the job is fascinating to I think the respect the autonomy that they give you is is is is an attractive part of that.
Dave: It is.
Aaron Hagan: but But to recap, you did a 135 operator for a while. And then you went with a phenom to a part 91 owner operator, correct?
Dave: To Part 91 management, a management company in Salt Lake has a ah dozen or so airplanes under management.
Aaron Hagan: Okay.
Dave: And there were two phenoms. One was an E-model, pretty moderately new one was a straight first 100 serial numbers phenom 300 both good airplanes uh very different avionics
Dave: and i enjoyed that i enjoyed the time off that some 91 jobs will give you compared to a 135 job and i also enjoyed not having to commute which we can probably talk about in a while not having to fly commute to wherever the jet happens to be, as you do with most 135 operations.
Dave: The downside was that when one of the owners decided to sell his airplane, the junior guy got let go. So I wouldn't say I was fired, but I was absolutely let go. And for the first time in 66 years, I had to file for unemployment.
Aaron Hagan: And that's another point that I wanted to kind of pull out of this, which is you're in the Marine Corps, the customs, ah you did Air Force Reserve, and all very stable positions.
Aaron Hagan: You went to Delta, you caught one of two furloughs that I know that Delta has had. You got through that fine. But then after that, you know, life was life was pretty good. And when you made the decision to go out, you are now on your third job in two years.
Dave: Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: What have you learned about about that process and about yourself?
Dave: ah Choose wisely.
Aaron Hagan: are Choose wisely, mom.
Dave: So maybe don't take the first job that's offered to you just because it's offered to you. And it is flattering when somebody says, hey, we'd like to hire you. We we respect ah your experience and what you've done and think you can do a good job for us. And you go, yeah, yeah, I think I can.
Dave: That's cool. You may be stuck in, I mean, the Phenom's a great airplane and it's got some some really cool capabilities, but it's a little jet and I kind of see myself as a Gulfstream guy.
Dave: ah I probably won't get into a Gulfstream now because I'm i'm in a Phenom and that's what my experience is.
Aaron Hagan: Thank
Dave: I have 400 whatever hours, 400 plus hours in the last 20 months. It's all Phenom time. That doesn't mean I can't fly another airplane again. i mean In airlines, you go through training and you do a week of OE and they send you off in the jet and you're the boss.
Dave: and The civilian side, it's not that it's not a little deal to change airplanes.
Aaron Hagan: Yeah, you kind of you you do get in a little bit of a stovepipe here because it's money. it's It's owner-operator money. It's ah small flight department of money. I see that. I think one of the points that I'd like listeners to get out of that is if you are a person who has valued stability and prided yourself on never being furloughed or surviving the one furlough earlier in your career and having a great career after that, it might be a little unnerving as you step into this.
Aaron Hagan: And you find out, well, they just sold my airplane. Or I thought this was a pretty good operation, but I'm finding some things under the rugs here that I don't necessarily think I can keep looking away from.
Aaron Hagan: And i think a point that I'd like folks to realize is a certain amount of turnover in corporate is normal, right? You're not weird. You're not a failure.
Aaron Hagan: You aren't bad pilot. It's not going to keep you from getting another job. um And if you're on any of the message boards or anything in the corporate world, you occasionally see a post.
Aaron Hagan: Guy goes, hey, didn't think it would happen. But 12 years in, my principal sold the airplane. Anybody know somebody who ah needs a Falcon guy? I typed on the Falcon 50 or Falcon this or the G500.
Dave: like Yeah, I'll pull ah'll pull gear for you, Aaron, and yourre in your G500.
Aaron Hagan: It happened. Yeah. it had
Dave: I can do that for a year or two.
Aaron Hagan: yeah
Dave: What do you got?
Aaron Hagan: Exactly. So the point is job turnover and a lack of stability doesn't necessarily mean it's a you failed by chasing this. It just means over a five or a seven-year third career, as much as you'd like stability and go, I found the perfect operator, the perfect principal, perfect gig.
Aaron Hagan: Historically, you're probably going to work for three or four different operators. over the course of a 10 year period, if you're a typical corporate guy So if you go in knowing that, and things change,
Aaron Hagan: ah Hopefully when you come back to the house and you're sitting at the kitchen table, you're not freaked out. You you sit back and go, oh, yeah, I remember they said this would happen. I've got my types. Because I've been such a great guy in the FBO, because I've been to the Reno Air Races or I went to this air show because I'm helping the 99s or I'm involved in this school project here, I know a bunch of other pilots that are in my age band that are doing interesting things. I'm going to look at my network and see what else that I've got.
Aaron Hagan: The other thing, and um maybe I'm just, ah I probably suffered some emotional trauma early as an interview coach in the early 2000s as I was watching people who had thought they had career jobs coming in and dealing with furloughs, trying to change companies.
Aaron Hagan: The worst at the time I remember were guys who had been let go at TWA, gone to America and had been stapled at the bottom. And some were considering maybe going to Southwest or other places, JetBlue at the time.
Aaron Hagan: um Other pilots, I remember a guy from Piedmont saying, I got hired in 1988. I had one chance to upgrade in 1992 to the Fokker 100, decided to pass on it.
Aaron Hagan: That was the only chance. So he's been 12, 13, 14 years now In 121, he's got less than 1,000 PIC turbine. I don't remember the exact numbers, but they're low times.
Aaron Hagan: And FedEx, Southwest, and JetBlue, the only three operators hiring at the time, wanted 1,000 PIC turbine. So these folks were just stuck.
Aaron Hagan: duck And I remember absorbing all of this. And I remember guys saying, yeah, when they let me go, i had this many days in my sick leave and unused vacation and all these other sad facts.
Dave: Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: So i may be an anomaly, but I've kept a logbook up. I kept it up in the military. I've kept it up in 23 years at FedEx. Not that at 60 years old now, I plan on jumping airlines or I'm not sure I'm going follow your footsteps and fly corporate after this.
Aaron Hagan: But there was something imprinted in me which just said, you never know what's going to happen here. So for people that are doing this, I say, when you go into your first corporate job, you probably need to be thinking about, what do I want to do next if this doesn't work out?
Aaron Hagan: What other possibilities are there with this particular type rating? And continue to at least keep your eyes on the horizon in case things get a little messy.
Dave: and And your point about the logbooks, let me just pick that one out of what you just said. Your point about the logbooks, that's a real thing. Man, what a... i I can't tell you how many flight hours I have because I'm not that organized.
Dave: And i I didn't see it as a priority to keep exact track of which flight I did, how much of that was nighttime, how much... one of the One of the fractionals asks you how much mountain flying time you have.
Dave: I don't know. a Enough.
Aaron Hagan: Yeah.
Dave: ah ah We talked about it when I was looking around for jobs and, you know, what do I need to do with this stack of log books? ah Is it okay if I say that I've got 18,000 hours plus or do I need to have 18,263.4?
Dave: And all the other associated subcategories, because if they, if I need that, then I'm just going on social security and flying my little.
Aaron Hagan: yeah Well, there's there's a couple of ways people can skin the cat. I'm going to back up and and talk logbooks for younger listeners right now. you know the They say there's two good times to plant a tree in your yard. The best time is 30 years ago.
Aaron Hagan: And then the second best day is today. The same principle. So if you haven't been keeping up with the logbooks, if you haven't downloaded your company records, this might be a good time to do it. Even if it's something but printing them out, putting them in a binder, putting them in a safe deposit box for file somewhere so you've got them.
Aaron Hagan: Because when airlines hiccup, sometimes when airlines change computer systems, various things happen, people suddenly find it's difficult to go back and retrieve flight records. ah Certainly, if you're a couple of years from retiring and you think you might want to do this, it's it's not a quick process to get all this stuff organized. So maybe getting on that a little bit early is good.
Aaron Hagan: um There are some commercial logbook services. We've got one. And I'll give an example of what our guy does, but he'll basically take a ah Delta guy like you. print out your stuff, he'll run it through his gonculator and he'll say, okay, based on historical norms, this much was instrument, this much was night, this much was this, this much was this. And if you didn't go down and break down subcategories, you know they'll do that.
Aaron Hagan: And then there'll be a memo, like a memo for record in the Air Force. Hey, these were the ratios. These were the things that we looked at, but these are verified and true flights on these dates, the set.
Aaron Hagan: These other values are assumed using these particular formulas. um I don't track my night. i be You know, in FedEx, I'd say probably 60% of it. But I do track the PIC.
Aaron Hagan: do track.
Dave: right
Aaron Hagan: But here's the other part of the planting the tree 30 years ago or planting it today. When I was, i started doing it in the military and I've kept it up over the years. I put down who my first officer was or who the guys in my formation were flying the F-15 or who was in my back seat that day in the OV-10. And
Aaron Hagan: As we age and mortality creeps in, there's a lot of friends that have flown west that are in my logbook.
Dave: Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: especially
Dave: yeah
Aaron Hagan: There's also a lot of good memories, you know, not just the somber ones, but when I flip back and AJ Pope is in the training department at Delta, delta So AJ was on my last OV-10 flight and we went around, we were doing a ah Top Gun competition. I think I won a couple of events that day on the wing turkey shoot.
Aaron Hagan: um You know, 25, 30 years later, he's pinning the Delta wings that he got on my daughter when she's at Delta.
Dave: wow
Aaron Hagan: But you know, I go through my logbook and I find the places that AJ and I overlapped and other friends, you know, from the F-15 world, people that were mentor captains to me at FedEx that had a big influence on me.
Aaron Hagan: um a couple of female captains that I adored, you know, with a daughter in aviation. You know, thumbed back and I said, yeah, let me tell you about going into Grand Rapids one night with Janine Urban as the captain and landing in three inches of snow and watching when she went into reverse, of snow going everywhere. I'm in my first year at FedEx and I just remember thinking, did I screw up my life?
Aaron Hagan: am i Am I really supposed to be doing this? Because this is the, I've done some crazy stuff in fighters, but this seems bonkers to me. And you know an hour later, we're drinking from a pitcher at the bar and laughing.
Aaron Hagan: And you know she's you know mentoring and passing down lessons on on I do these things.
Dave: Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: So I wouldn't probably have those memories as close if they weren't in the logs. I realize i'm ah I'm a little bit of a nerd. Maybe more people than I know that don't, don't keep the logs.
Aaron Hagan: But if you haven't started, consider it. If you're trying to procure your flight records for the next job, start now. Get the records downloaded.
Dave: yeah
Aaron Hagan: Start getting them organized. There's outside agencies that can help you put it into a nice little bundle. I do think that if you basically printed that out and went to most 135 operators after 20 years in the airlines and said, you know,
Aaron Hagan: According to my Delta records, I have this many hours PIC and these types and so on.
Dave: Right.
Aaron Hagan: That's probably enough. But there's ways you can break it out and and get a little more out of
Dave: Right. and you know, ah one or two folks have said, have suggested that maybe there's a book in you. And i I'd like to think that.
Dave: But if I had kept all those names and and logged it just a detail or two more than I had to,
Aaron Hagan: it.
Dave: it would be a lot easier to go back and start working on something like that. And I think there's probably a lot of us out there at my age, at least, and you're approaching that range, maybe.
Dave: There are a lot of people like that.
Aaron Hagan: Well, again, we can't fix what's passed. But we can start prepping for what we want to do next. And and this industry has given us a lot of mulligans lately, a lot of second chances, a lot of opportunities that they weren't there a little while ago.
Dave: Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: So that's what we're here to talk about.
Dave: yeah
Aaron Hagan: um So you did the first job, 135, the second owner-operator. I think it's worth sharing what you're doing right now because I find that really interesting. And you've talked about some of the rewards of it.
Dave: Well, I don't have anything bad to say about the company, so I'll tell you who I'm flying for. I'm flying for Transmedics Aviation. They were Summit Aviation out of Bozeman, Montana, a small 135 operator that had a good reputation.
Dave: They were bought all up by Transmedics, which is a company out of Massachusetts that invented box that carries and supports and keeps human organs alive.
Aaron Hagan: Thank you.
Dave: rather than carrying ah heart, lungs or eyeballs in ah and an igloo cooler packed with ice trying to slow the rate of tissue death, this box supports human organs such that, and you know not being a doctor or a technician, i the numbers I give you are subject to,
Aaron Hagan: I've looked the website. that it It triples or quadruples the shelf life of an organ harvested, which is when you're talking about you know hours ah under the old system, that that's that that creates a lot of flexibility for the physicians, a lot options.
Dave: instead yeah Instead of trying to race to get from Seattle to Denver before the organ completely gives up the ghost, you've got time.
Dave: And the most the wildest thing that I've read about it is after a heart transplant, the the average recipient will spend two and a half days in critical post-surgical care, two and a half days.
Dave: Now with the OCS technology that Transmedix developed, that average stay is down to one and a half days because they're getting a healthier product.
Aaron Hagan: I
Dave: They recover faster. it's It's amazing. And you know my part, I'm just as a stick wiggler and making motor noises with my lips, but just being a part of it is kind of is kind of gratifying and it is changing the the transplant industry.
Dave: we can We can pick up an organ in Anchorage and deliver it to Miami and it'll be fine.
Aaron Hagan: I think one of the things that i read too that made me, it was, you know, Hawaii organ transplant options were extremely limited because of remoteness. The Transmedic product has has saved lives there and created opportunities that weren't there before.
Aaron Hagan: Certainly you mentioned Alaska, remote medicine, it it has changed things. Certainly.
Dave: So they find all Phenom and they're and there Their way of doing it is they are flying all 300 E1s, the newest jets. I don't think they have a jet older than three and a half years.
Dave: And if you've flown old airplanes, that's an impressive number. And they will maintain those jets because of how important it is to get the get the organ to the recipient.
Aaron Hagan: Well, you talked a little about the the emotional satisfaction of what you're doing and and you're flying good equipment. You're flying with good people. You've told me that before. I think that's pretty neat. um But i do think it's worth mentioning you have a job now, don't you?
Dave: I have a job.
Aaron Hagan: You have a job. And how often do you have to go to that job?
Dave: I go to the job twice a month, which sounds great, but it's eight days on, six days off. So um'm I'm working a lot. I mean, pilot-wise, I'm working a lot. That's 17, maybe 18 days a month.
Dave: And it's a 14-hour shift.
Dave: Hopefully, it's not 14 hours every day for eight days, but it could be. ah And that's... I'm not 20 years old anymore.
Dave: That tires me out. I spend a day or so when I get home taking it easy before I start picking up and taking care of things that need to be taken care of.
Aaron Hagan: You know, i I've talked to you about post 65 jobs or potentially if if a lucrative early retirement were to be offered, you know, what some options might be.
Aaron Hagan: and in my self analysis, what I've realized is I've gotten very spoiled and we have some great work schedules. And while it's bad for some people right now, they've cut back our hours below the mid guarantee.
Aaron Hagan: There's not as much work.
Aaron Hagan: I have really grown to enjoy my time off with my dogs, with my family. And I'm not sure yet that I am wired to go back and work harder than I do right now.
Aaron Hagan: And while my job has its own challenges, longer trips away, circadian challenges, and of course, it's, you know, it's big league game when you're flying big Jets International. But I do, I will say that one of the perks of the job is I get a lot of time off, which allows me to indulge the other things.
Dave: I'm
Aaron Hagan: And I've thought about you and other guys who are finally stepping into this point where you can do whatever you want. But your employer doesn't look at you like you're 67 and this is a retirement gig.
Aaron Hagan: They look at you like, your yeah, you're a professional pilot and our schedules are 17 days.
Dave: um' an employee.
Aaron Hagan: So again, food for thought for the guys that are on the fence about, do I want to do this or not? I know one of the gigs that sometimes gets a lot of attraction is the simulator jobs because those typically are scalable.
Aaron Hagan: They're home every night. Um, it It just depends. But you need to be honest with yourself. And I know you. You love flying, and this is a great gig. But what can you tell me about the impact on your finances?
Aaron Hagan: Because this is a fairly fair-paying gig. um You were a child of the lost decade, but you still ended up on top at Delta as a wide-body captain.
Aaron Hagan: Pretty good life. Full disclosure, you live in the outskirts of Park City. You've got a good life. But how has... taking money in in your late 60s changed your retirement math.
Dave: um it's improved it. and then you know That's the short answer. I'm not collecting social security. And I think I'll probably start collecting it when the penalty for working goes away.
Dave: And for me, that's going to be right around age 67.
Dave: It's good to not have to draw down the money and to give it a chance to work a little longer. i It's real good. And You know, our house is paid for, our cars are paid for, and if we need to put a new water heater in, it's not going to break us or or make us worry or or skip our morning coffee if we decide to go to Starbucks.
Aaron Hagan: Yeah, I've started doing the math. You're like me. We've got a military pension, which is which is nice. I hope to have an airline pension and be set away.
Aaron Hagan: But yeah, well, you know, it it it is ah it's a nice perk.
Dave: I wanted one of those too.
Dave: Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: It really has. At the same time, um there is something traumatic about thinking, okay, I really can't put any more in anymore.
Aaron Hagan: It's all about managing the withdrawals. And and the one of the hardest things retirees have to learn to do is to spend money with confidence, right? we We don't want to run out of money before we run out of life.
Aaron Hagan: At the same time, you want to you want to reap the rewards of all the stuff that you've worked for and not be so tight you can't enjoy it.
Dave: Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: um It seems to me that every year that you're not taking out of there makes that makes that a lot less stressful.
Dave: I think it will.
Aaron Hagan: a
Dave: Can't give you a bigger answer than that. um I'm no financial genius, but I think it will.
Aaron Hagan: um What advice do you have for your peers out there that are approaching 65 that might
Aaron Hagan: that might want to continue and and do what you did and continue flying professionally. What have you learned that you think would be beneficial for them to hear?
Dave: um
Dave: keep Keep track of people that you meet. If you meet somebody who's flying for a fractional, for NetJets, for FlexJet, for whoever, um keep keep their number. if If they've offered it to you, keep in touch.
Dave: Build up your your LinkedIn network, and there may be a better ah source than that, but that's the one I've been using primarily. Update your resume, start looking.
Dave: probably One of the things that but I haven't done that I might really consider if if if I was unhappy with transmedics is building a relationship with finding a good headhunter.
Dave: and just just start looking around.
Aaron Hagan: Placement services can can can definitely be ah good tool. A couple of other tools, you know There's a couple of websites out there, one that I can think of, ProPilot World.
Aaron Hagan: It is a fee base, but it's like $10. And you have to be commercial pilot. you know they They verify that. um But there's a pretty good network of people out there in the corporate side. you know A lot of the other online chat rooms and stuff are full of Airline guys, PPW seems to draw a lot of the corporate side. And and I'd say, you know, once it's a message board. du You've got your 5% crazies and your silly stuff and ah things that will occasionally be offensive to some. But I would say of all of that I've seen, it's absolutely the most above board, professional, ah good resources.
Aaron Hagan: And people, there have been quite a few people who've said, hey, you know, I'm an ex-airline guy. How do I break into this? How do I do this right? And and I've seen largely good advice. and that And the good advice is mainly do exactly what you said. Network, be humble, come in there willing to learn, come in there willing to carry bags, grab the catering, don't be a prima donna and be somebody who loves to fly. Right.
Dave: Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: Money's good, but you better, you know, I've always, a you know, I'm a guy who spends money that I earn, you know, flying professionally to go put Avgas in my little airplane and go hop around and visit FBOs around the country. So that tells me I picked the right profession when i when I'm doing something that I love out of my own pocket.
Aaron Hagan: But corporate gives you a chance to kind of scratch that itch a little bit and to maybe see other places that you haven't seen. It does require, I think, a high level of personal integrity and standards because you're going to find people that fortunately you haven't had too much of this that will press that. You're going to need to be prepared for that and you need to be prepared for the fact it's not as stable. you you You may bounce around a few jobs.
Dave: Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: it's That is not an unnatural progression.
Dave: Well, and in the networking, all true, but I'm going to forget this stuff if I don't pull it out right now. In the networking aspect, aviation is a pyramid.
Dave: And as you stay in it, it gets smaller. The world gets smaller as you stay in it for years and years. And I still run into people that I haven't seen for 10 or 20 or for longer years.
Dave: you You'll run into those folks and then sort of slash to the next part of the subtopic I thought about.
Aaron Hagan: Thank you.
Dave: if you havet If you don't have type ratings in corporate equipment now, you're goingnna you'll get one when you get a job.
Dave: ah I've heard, you know, I thought, wouldn't it be great to be a contractor, just be a part time contractor, because then I could just choose to work five or six or eight days in a month.
Dave: And wouldn't that be great? That would kind of be like winning the lottery in a part 91 family, family owned jet outfit.
Aaron Hagan: Thank you.
Dave: those jobs are out there, but you're not going to find one unless you're really lucky, really good at networking and you have some experience. And I have only, only this week, literally this week, yesterday and today, gotten calls asking me if I was available to go fly a Phenom on these dates.
Dave: and And I wasn't because I'm going to work tomorrow, but You're not going to just, I mean, and there's going to be somebody who breaks that rule, but you're not going to just say, okay, retired airline, I'm going to go get the phenom type rating or the Gulfstream type rating and go be a contractor.
Aaron Hagan: but
Dave: i
Aaron Hagan: So you probably need you probably need to plan on a couple of years of paying dues and networking, getting the credibility, but then understand if you want to walk it back, those possibilities, if you're if you're connected, might actually be available.
Dave: that's That's been my experience and that's my sense that now that I've got over 400 hours or so and maybe a few people know my name, i get a call now and then.
Aaron Hagan: Okay.
Dave: that's interesting. But it's taken all three years.
Aaron Hagan: Well, you got to... you've You've got to go build the rep and you've got to get the credibility and that and and that kind of makes sense. And nobody's going to, unless you do go out and buy the type, which again, i don't recommend.
Dave: yeah
Aaron Hagan: ah Some people may find a reason to justify it I'm not going to argue with them. But if you're willing to put the time in for an operator, you can probably get a type paid for and then it's yours to keep.
Dave: Yes.
Aaron Hagan: What's a typical training contract that you've seen or heard about when you were looking? Are they one year, two year contracts? How? what What did you see?
Dave: one one year since One year seems pretty standard in the corporate world.
Aaron Hagan: Okay.
Dave: I don't know much more than that.
Aaron Hagan: So
Dave: that's That's what I've seen when I've gotten to that point of discussions with people.
Aaron Hagan: I'll close with this. You mentioned, Hey, I had, I was at back at work in four weeks. I could have taken longer. You, your shelf life as a professional pilot really doesn't deteriorate very much. In my opinion, for about 12 months, 12 to 18 months is where people start to look at you. Maybe, ah, maybe getting a little stale.
Aaron Hagan: Um, But it's the same advice I give some retiring military guys who who come blasting out. Everybody wants to get their line number right away with the airline. And I do not argue the value of that at all.
Aaron Hagan: But I've also seen some people who recognize for their own reasons, I need to decompress. I need to exhale. I need to figure out. how i'm going to make this work. I don't think that your last few years in 121 are the grind that your last few years in the military are.
Aaron Hagan: You should have the seniority. You should have the financial resources. So if you kind of set yourself up into a walking pace as you go towards the exit, maybe a four to eight week transition isn't unrealistic or a bad thing um at the same time.
Dave: spending time on a vacation with my family would have been great. And I think I caused some stress, some additional stress more than I needed to in the in the job transition by rushing, rushing, rushing.
Aaron Hagan: Well, that's the other point that I was going to make is, you know, the flip side to the job not being as stable as the airline job is it's not a seniority based job. So if you did take that six months off to decompress, to network, or as you pointed out, maybe be a little more selective, interview a couple of more places before you decide where you want to hang your hat.
Aaron Hagan: I'm not saying it would be time poorly spent.
Aaron Hagan: It's not a pilot's nature to go on cruise control. you know we're We're prone to think, okay, we um you talked about it earlier. Hey, I'm always worried about what's next, my next flying assignment in the military. When am I going to get my airline job? I want to get on as soon as I can get my seniority.
Aaron Hagan: This may be a time that it behooves you to move just a little slower, as you indicated. Yeah.
Dave: Your mileage may vary, but that's that's the way i look at it.
Aaron Hagan: yeah
Aaron Hagan: Yeah. Well, that's probably good advice and as somebody who's walked that walk. And that's that's why I asked the question.
Dave: yeah
Aaron Hagan: So any parting shots, anything else that you think people would want to know about about flying after 65?
Dave: um Keep in touch with your friendly Emerald Coast guys as as a source of um wisdom because it's you've helped me a lot.
Aaron Hagan: ae
Aaron Hagan: yeah Well, once a client, always a client. you know and That's the fun part is it it's been really rewarding to help people.
Aaron Hagan: I've had a few guys that I helped get hired at FedEx that have since retired. And they've circled back to get ready for post-FedEx career. And again, such an interesting thing that 10 years ago really wasn't happening.
Aaron Hagan: And now, it's it I hate to say it's common, But it's definitely a possibility for the right person with the right attitude. And I appreciate you taking the time to offer your perspective on it as somebody who's who's done that and been very successful at it.
Dave: hey
Dave: Thanks, Aaron. Thank you.
Aaron Hagan: All
Dave: It's been a pleasure talking with you. And now I'm going to give you give one more thing that you can cut out if you want or throw it in earlier.
Aaron Hagan: right.
Dave: um Mentoring. I have a lot of the flying I've been doing since I retired from the airlines has been with real junior kids. I've kept my CFI up. I like teaching. i It's stressful to do it for a living, but ah the the mentoring and developing that you see with junior guys who've never flown a jet before, it can be stressful when you're relying on somebody to be a good FO, and they're not quite there yet.
Dave: But I worked with a guy, ah my stick partner, going to Phenom School. had done nothing but survey flying before he got this job. And I felt like I was carrying him through training and then carrying him through the next couple months, constantly trying to guide him and treat him differently than you would treat somebody in an airline or military ah environment big because it is a different environment. But
Dave: this This guy struggled mightily and he had a tough road getting through Phenom School. And he had a tough time his first month or so flying a jet with me.
Dave: But then he stayed with the company and they ended up in a different airplane. He's flying a Prater now, Prater 500. And I asked him, how did that training go? And I thought I would know the answer. And I was right.
Dave: It was a piece of cake. It was a breeze. And I feel like I can take some, I have some, sense of achievement and helping him through the first couple months to where he can he can move on.
Dave: i don't know. i'm I'm bragging on myself. I'm not trying to brag on myself, but it was it was gratifying.
Aaron Hagan: not You're not bragging on yourself. You're talking a lot about what the role and why some of these airlines, I'm sorry, why some of these organizations would hire 65, 66, 67-year-old pilot.
Aaron Hagan: And a lot of it is because of the maturity, the poise, and hopefully the shaping. And i'll i'll oh we're going little long, but I think it's worthwhile. One of the companies that has emerged in the last couple of years SkyWest Charters.
Aaron Hagan: And SkyWest Charters went out and they looked for guys just like you, passionate aviators who like to teach and like to mentor. One of our own former MEC officers, Sean McDonald, is at SkyWest Charters.
Aaron Hagan: um There's a guy that I've chatted with that came out of a he was an America West guy. Obviously, all the merging happened, ended up at American, retired from America.
Aaron Hagan: But the common thread on all these guys is they're one, they're constant aviators. they've They've had very successful airline careers, but that's not why they were hired. They were hired because they also had a mentoring, nurturing personality because they're flying with what the regionals were doing before Colgan.
Aaron Hagan: They're putting 200, 300 hour the right seat of CRJ 200. pilots in the right seat of a c r j two hundred And you are a mentor captain, you're an instructor. And the idea is they get to 750, 800 hours, they meet their men's and then they go over and now they're actually flowing into SkyWest.
Aaron Hagan: So you're a mentor captain and they're looking for people who have that personality.
Dave: Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: and And I personally, i love to teach like you.
Dave: yeah
Aaron Hagan: My wife is a flight attendant for SkyWest, works in the training department. you know I thought that would be a a fantastic potential post FedEx retirement job.
Aaron Hagan: if they were still hiring, if that was still the role. And if, you know, I think I'm probably going to be riding my mountain bike and skiing and walking my dogs, but it, it's the right job for the right person.
Aaron Hagan: And there are those jobs and those niches that are out there, but that's a, that's something too, to maybe emphasize in your presentations to your potential employer is that, Hey, I'm,
Aaron Hagan: I'm humble. I'm here to learn. And I know I've got a lot to learn about flying the Praetor, flying the Gulf Stream, flying the Falcon. But I've also got 30 years of aviation experience.
Aaron Hagan: And at a certain point when the light clicks on, you're going to get somebody that I think is going to be a good influence and set a good example in decision making, in CRM, and discipline to your other crew members.
Dave: And I hope I've been doing that. Exactly. Yeah.
Aaron Hagan: Yeah. So I think that is and and that is one of the strengths. You know, we we are so standardized in 121 and generally very disciplined and very professional. And that adds value to these flight departments. That's that's one of your core values to them as, you know, we're getting a getting a known widget here.
Aaron Hagan: So that's probably something worth worth mentioning.
Dave: So thanks for letting me yeah circle back and re-attack that. and
Aaron Hagan: No, that's ah that's a great point. I'm glad you touched on that. And I really appreciate your time today. This has been this has been enlightening, a lot of fun. um I'm sure that we'll get a lot more questions from people. you know And if you do have questions about post-65 stuff and options, you know reach out to us at Emerald Coast and we'll steer you towards some of the people and some of the resources that we have. and let you talk straight to the horse's mouth and see what some of the options are.
Aaron Hagan: It's, a no I always say, you know, we we sell interview coaching, but networking is free and networking is the fun part, right? When we can let people get where they want to be and find those connections.
Dave: yes Always.
Aaron Hagan: So we'll wrap this one up for today. But again, Dave, thank you so much for your time and your perspective. I know a lot of people are going to find this very valuable and I certainly enjoy talking to
Dave: Thanks, Aaron.
