Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Cockpit Conversations. This is a place where we share tips and strategies for not only getting hired, but getting the most out of your aviation career along the way. Additionally, we'd like to share thoughts on many things that we find interesting at 35,000 feet.
Speaker: Sit back, get comfortable and welcome aboard.
Speaker: And welcome to the podcast. Today, we're going to be talking to a couple of pilots who are juggling not only one, but two careers simultaneously. ah I've got Scott Meyer and...
Speaker: Mike Cady, both successful fighter pilots. Scott recently retired. Plupto is still serving in an F-35 capacity. And I thought it'd be fun to get the perspective from some guys that are flying some pointy jets while they're continuing or have managed to fly in their 121 job successfully as well for some ideas in perspective.
Speaker: I did the same thing for many years, but my data points are a little more dated. but I'll chime in here and there with a little of the lessons learned from my area as well.
Speaker: So before we get too far along, and I'd like to start with introductions. Scott, why don't you tell me you know about you, what you flew in the Guard, ah about your airline, where you're based, and a little about background.
Speaker: So Scott Meyer, yeah, I... Went to school in Colorado and then did the Air Force pilot training thing and came back as a first assignment instructor pilot ah in the T6, bouncing around the southeast there at Moody and and Columbus, and then went on ah to the F-16 B course, which is actually where Mike and I met. We were students in the B course together at Luke and then went to Flew F-16s in an active duty capacity in ah Korea, in Utah, and then ended my active duty career down in Tucson and joined the Guard and was fortunate at that time to also get hired at Delta Airlines. So, yeah.
Speaker: with that transition decided to move the family back to minneapolis where i'm 320 first officer kind of milking the seniority um and as you said i was able to join the duluth minnesota air guard find block 50 vipers up there and retired about two years ago after 22 total years but with a guard retirement so yeah here in minneapolis excited to talk okay about you mike Yep, Mike, Katie, go by klepto, as Scott said, or Cash said, we were in the Viper B course together, so that's pretty typical ah pre-B course pilot training.
Speaker: ah Was in the active duty flying F-16s for about 10 years in the F-16, is what I did total, about active of duty time, 11 years before I went to the guard up in Vermont.
Speaker: ah Last active duty assignment was operational test at Eglin and then flew full-time in the Guard for about five years until I went part-time, ah joined Delta, and then I've been kind of in and out of some part-time roles as well as some full-time roles we'll get into you later for the last three years. And I've got I guess just ah about six months or so to a guard retirement. However, potentially staying in longer to get to an AGR retirement prior to going back to Delta. So I'm sure we'll get into that later.
Speaker: Yeah. what What were you flying at Delta before you went out on this stretch of waters? Yep. I was flying the 220 First Officer based in Salt Lake. Okay. Fantastic.
Speaker: um Scott, I'll jump back to you. um Did you always know you wanted to be in the Guard, be an airline pilot? How did you come to the decision to to do this? um To be quite honest, so my dad is a retired military guy.
Speaker: He flew for the military only for eight years, but stayed in and got a reserve retirement as an ALO for the Air Force Academy. um So that's kind of what drove me towards the Air Force to begin with. We can get into ah all of those details. And he was pretty hands off to be quite honest ah for pretty much my entire Air Force career.
Speaker: But after he retired, he was still getting a bunch of literature. And kind of, I wouldn't say he sat me down, but we had a ah phone call where he's like, hey man, if you have any desire to do this airline thing, um now is the time to give it a shot. And if you don't like it, you don't have to keep doing it, to be quite honest.
Speaker: The world is your oyster. um And I had thought about it, but you know that was kind of a little bit of the show that I was at a time in my Air Force career where I had the choice to separate and I had a unit that was willing to hire me right away. So i pretty much changed patches down there in Tucson while I was teaching the B course and they hired me as a part-timer.
Speaker: um And I was fortunate in a very short period of time to get hired at Delta. And the things for me, again, very fortunately, just fell into place. So my wife and I are both from Minneapolis and Delta is a hub here. And so we were able to move to be close to family. and And Duluth, I was looking for pilots. They needed some experience within the squadron and it really just worked out.
Speaker: How about you, Mike? to Well, when I, I was one a flight fighters since i was a little kid, probably like a lot of us. And in my mind, when I got on active duty, did that's what i was going to do for the next 20 years and had zero desire to be an airline pilot and even think about it.
Speaker: ah Fast forward about that 11 year point where you're on up or done with my UPT commitment. And my wife and I decided to go to the guard primarily for just stability a life. We've moved a lot, just like everyone does. And,
Speaker: ah To be honest, he was not very happy about the idea of going back to Vegas. So the ah best decision for our family to go to the guard.
Speaker: And we're both from Colorado. ah But at the time, Vermont had a job opening. and I was rushing them. And they were kind of the ones who worked out first and, you know, similar to Colorado lifestyle wise. So,
Speaker: we yeah That's when we jumped off the active duty and went there. and I'd say I started the guard with no intent of going to the airlines, um to be honest.
Speaker: but Yeah, after a couple years, I i was going on, ah think, about year five in a row of being a tier one weapons officer. And that is a little grinding, little tiring as much as I i loved i loved it. But it it was definitely grinding. And that's when i started kind of asking questions to some of the airline guys in the squadron. Just, know, when we were hanging out on the weekends, like, hey, can you just tell me a little bit about it? And I started kind of opening my mind to the idea, know, one thing led another.
Speaker: I am as a Delta guy now. Interesting. Okay. I'll be a little bit of a contrast to you guys. ah You know, it sounds like you're the accidental airline pilot. You... Plan on flying fighters and you get a little side data and you you change your plane midstream. you know Cash kind of thought about it, weight is choices, looking at looking at the various sides of it.
Speaker: I knew from the day i raised my right hand as lieutenant, I wanted to be an airline pilot. When I went to college, I had several friends whose dads were airline captains at Delta. And ah I was impressed with the lifestyle, not just the money, but the fact they liked their jobs. They were fun people.
Speaker: They seemed to live a full, vibrant life. So I'll be honest. I was a guy who from the very first day on active duty was always keeping one eye on the horizon to transition out when it made sense.
Speaker: You know, you've got to get some credibility. You've got to get some qualifications. And we were having a, we're having a great time. And of course the pilot commitment when I signed was pretty long anyway, I knew I was going to be in for three tours. So, um,
Speaker: There's no point point being impatient. You better enjoy the ride. But i was I was a guy who always had the airlines in the back of my mind. um So if you're out there and you haven't looked at it or it's always been your goal, you The guard makes a really nice mix where it lets you continue to serve and do something you love.
Speaker: I always said I was a little bit of the accidental ah Lieutenant Colonel because I was going to do, you know, my seven years and get out. But in the early nineties, um,
Speaker: Airlines weren't hiring huge numbers. Uh, I was having a lot of fun. My wife was enjoying it. I took the bonus and then had the opportunity to continue in the international guard. So, um, I'm going say that there's probably some ROTC instructors that probably puked when they found out that I made it all that far, but, uh, it turned out to be a great, uh, a great ride.
Speaker: Um, you know, the lifestyle can be a bit of a challenge. Um, for every day that you're working in a fighter squadron, you've also got airline obligations. Every day you're at the airline, you know your unit is probably ah calling for you.
Speaker: How do you guys manage that geographically? Did you choose to live ah at your guard unit? Did you choose to live in your airline base? And how'd you make that work? I guess I'll go first. off So I live...
Speaker: throughout my the majority of my guard career dislocated from my guard unit. um So every time that I was obligated to go up there, it was like another airline trip for me, you know because it was just far enough away that I couldn't come home every single night.
Speaker: um So what that meant was from a quality of life standpoint, Delta would help me, you know, I would post the mill leave and they would prorate my schedule to a ah lesser amount um to allow me to fulfill those guard obligations, which is great, you know, from a sanity standpoint.
Speaker: um So for me, I guess maybe taking your question a little bit of a step further, if I ever had the option, and this was just a family decision, we decided not to live in Duluth. We wanted live in Minneapolis, which is closer to family.
Speaker: um My recommendation would be to live, if you can, where your guard unit is, um simply for the fact of when you're done with your day of work, you can just go home.
Speaker: um And it's not like another trip in a hotel room, if that makes sense. It makes plenty sense. How'd you work it, Mike? Yep, so and kind of a lot what Scott was saying there.
Speaker: um Yeah, i kind I kind of looked at going to the Guard as just another airline trip. I also lived, once I transitioned to part-time, I did not live near my Guard unit anymore.
Speaker: So if I'm going to be gone for work, I'm either gone for Delta or I'm gone for the Air Force, and then I would just have to balance my military schedule with my airline schedule, ah you know, using middle leave of absence or MLOA, as we kind of say it.
Speaker: ah to kind of just balance that schedule so it ended up being roughly the same amount of time away from home as like a normal airline schedule it's just i'd be flying a reduced airline schedule to support the know pop of days that i was required to be at the guard that's that said you know a double commute as we call it commuting to your guardian and commuting to your airline job is can be pretty hard and it is It is going to add probably a few extra days of the month that you're gone from home from your family than you otherwise would have if you lived either in base for your airline job or at your guard unit.
Speaker: um so So that is something to consider for people who you know may want to live somewhere that's not close to either of their jobs. It can get taxing after a while for sure.
Speaker: Yeah, I think a double commute and is a ticket to a lot of stress. it It can be done. and And we've had people do it. I did what ah what Scott recommended. I basically stayed where I lived when I was on my last active duty station, which was Tindall Air Force Base in Panama City, Florida.
Speaker: And that had a lot of benefits. Yeah. As Scott mentioned, i went in I flew a mission. i went to the tower, was soft that day. i did ancillary training, went to the sim, whatever I had to do.
Speaker: And I was home that night. you know There were times I could pick the kids up or be there, at least be there for dinner. That was nice. um Another benefit of that is, i think most of us would agree, your airline friends or your coworkers, you'll make a few.
Speaker: Your guard friends are your real friends. That's your network. those That's our tribe. That's the people that we're with. And I lived in my tribe and I went to church with them. And I...
Speaker: Partied with them and I hung out with them. So living in the guard base helped us socially as well. And, you know, that was ah that was a big part of my life. I care a lot about those people. And that's still a some of my dear friends are are from that era.
Speaker: ah We no longer live in the same place. We moved away after my military career was done and a few more years went by. But that was a big plus. It also let me...
Speaker: go in and grab that occasional sortie on a day off, or if they called and said, hey, we could use somebody to come in to backfill the saw for top three or something like that. It was economically ah advantageous to me as a new hire back when I got hired as well. So ah there's lots of ways to skin the cat, chair fly think about it, talk to other people and see what works for you.
Speaker: I think the important thing too, that I heard everybody say though, was you got buy-in from the spouse. you know In Scott's case, hey, I'll commute to Duluth because we've got family here in Minneapolis. This works.
Speaker: ah Mike, you mentioned, hey, my wife was kind of done with moving every couple of years. I said, if we go here, there'll be some trade-offs, but but you got the buy-in. And certainly one of the things that kept me in Panama City was my wife had a very good career there.
Speaker: was very happy hitting her professional stride. And one of the things that I always enjoyed about the airline life was I didn't have to upend my spouse and make her reinvent herself every three years once she kind of hit her stride. So lots of ways to make it work.
Speaker: Talk that other person and and and figure it out. now We'll get into this in a little bit ah more detail later. I was very fortunate in that I worked in the F-15 schoolhouse.
Speaker: And while we did occasionally have some TDYs and deployments, we weren't combat coded. my My combat days were pretty much done unless I went to augment another unit somewhere as a volunteer.
Speaker: ah But you guys, that's not the case. You frontline missions. So for your... Guys that are airline pilots that are looking at rushing or joining a unit, can you give me a little insight as to what they can expect about us for is how much are they going to fly about? How many days are they going to be expected to there ah to be at the unit outside of these ah rotations?
Speaker: And then what changed when you were spinning up to go into theater and how did that work? So, Cash, I'll start with you. So every squadron is a little bit different, but there's one kind of document that for a combat coded squadron governs everybody, right? And it's gonna tell you what your requirements are on a monthly basis based on how they carry you within the wing, what status you're on, you know, are your combat mission ready, basic mission ready, if you will, BMC, basic mission capable.
Speaker: um
Speaker: So to answer your question, in Duluth, you know, we actually had a document that By the end, when I was there, you know we kind of designated one of the part-timers as like the chief part-timer who would facilitate those conversations that need to be had with the leadership to have a contract between the part-timers and the and the unit to say, these are what our expectations are based on what the requirements are within the the guard, if you will.
Speaker: um So what it ended up being was 10 periods of availability a month, which ends up being five days plus, depending on kind of who you are, where you are in the pipeline, et cetera.
Speaker: And it ended up being more on most months, I will tell you that. So
Speaker: so Translate that to sorties. How many times a month were you flying in the Mighty Viper when you were ah flying as a part-timer, not deployed? Not deployed. it It was a minimum of six times a month.
Speaker: um And that's just, you know, every now and again, you'll hit a tanker, you're able to log two. um But within those 10 periods, end up being five days, you know, some of that time is getting yourself there ah and...
Speaker: It ends being pretty busy just from a flying standpoint within those five days, just hit that minimum requirement with briefs and debriefs for your 1.5 in the air.
Speaker: in the air so Did you typically bounce along at the minimum or were there spikes where you were flying that? There were spikes when there would be more. um And you alluded to it, obviously with with any kind of spin up, they're gonna ask you to be there more.
Speaker: um So it was not necessarily a regulation requirement, is more of just an in-house, hey, we want you or desire you to fly this amount, you know let's call it 10 rep counters a month.
Speaker: um And the hope in that is, you know there's again, each squadron is different, but we would have a spin-up syllabus of some kind that was like, here's what our tasking is gonna be, here's what every pilot needs to be proficient in prior to the deployment. And you would need to go out and log those squares and make sure that you were almost almost managing your own training to ensure that you're ready to go. But there was but the syllabus there to facilitate that. Mike did something similar in the F-35, I assume.
Speaker: Yeah, that's everything Scott just said is pretty applicable in the F-35 world. article Our RAP, it stands for, I think it's Ready Air Crew Program that defines what you have to meet to be combat mission ready. That is six events per month.
Speaker: We typically Vermont loosely call that four flights and two sims, but that's not the hard requirement. That's just generally what we shoot for, which usually equates to I'm going to say six days a month from a park timer.
Speaker: Absolutely, you can fly soon in the morning and and take a flight in the afternoon or ah you know you can log two counters on a tanker day. But once you throw in some weather attrition, ah we have really awesome maintenance. So we rarely have maintenance-related losses of sorties. However, it does happen occasionally. so really all said and done you're probably looking about six days a month um and then it's kind of over to to you to manage like what does that look like for my airline schedule do i add six months six days a month to my typical airline schedule you know is it late notice that hey we really need you to come in this thursday to so be an ip for this ride well that that might drive you to have to do it more of a
Speaker: I guess a delayed military leave of absence requested and you know maybe you take yourself out of a trip with Delta as an example to make that happen because that's what the guard needs you to do so that's kind of a I think a float a floating ball or a changing game every month you know you can't necessarily predict each month to be exactly the same. Okay But it sounds like it sounds like probably you better budget at least six days, maybe a full week for the attrition, the occasional lot thing, obviously expecting a little bit more.
Speaker: um You know, that that sounds similar to what I did as a part-timer in the schoolhouse. The difference for me was um i would sometimes just coordinate with the schedulers and the ah other flight commanders and go, you know, do you want me?
Speaker: what What's important? Where can you use some help? You know, typically things like night weeks or other periods where they go, yeah, sometimes we're a little short of bodies. If you could be here this week, that would be great.
Speaker: um Deployments were actually, when we did training deployments, sometimes for whatever reason, people couldn't, didn't want to go, whatever. So I don't think I missed a TDY as a part-timer.
Speaker: Sometimes I would only go a week of a two-week or one week out of three, depending on where they needed me. But yeah. ah you You know, for those of you that are looking across the fence, if you're already IP qualified or have schoolhouse experience, um I found it very compatible with the airline.
Speaker: And I've got friends that teach at the UPT bases, you know, they kind of do the same thing. And it's a nice way to give back, to take your lessons learned and and to still feel like you're viable tactically, but without blowing up your you know,
Speaker: in the process. Again, living there certainly made it whole lot easier for me. I realize if you're stationed in Del Rio, I don't know too many people that you know want to move to Del Rio and commute out of there to their airline. So it's probably going to look a little more like Scott did if you're doing that kind of base where you fly in for a week and you know roll up your sleeves for five or six days and help them out.
Speaker: um But if you're living in a guard base, you know there there may be a little bit more flexibility there. um Now, let's talk about something that I didn't have to do, and that is deploy to combat.
Speaker: So, Cash, I know you went down range a couple of times while you were in Guardsman. um Mike, I don't know about about you, but how did that change the dynamic? How did you manage that? Just tell me a little about the experience.
Speaker: um You know, the funny thing is, is I never, as an active duty member, did not deploy to combat at all until I joined the Guard and then had a couple of different deployments. And
Speaker: You know, part of me was excited to have that experience, you know, the first time, and but it's still just an extended period of time away from the family, which I don't think changes across the board, no matter where you are in your career. You know, as an airline guy, you're used to leaving for three, four, five days at a time.
Speaker: Well, three months is a long time. um And granted, therebe I think, Mike, you can correct me if I'm wrong, going back to six-month deployments for the Guard, which is going to be a huge ask. ah So my my wife, Julie, has been on board since the get-go and she knows the deal and and you know not excited about it. But when you have time to plan for it, there's preparation that goes into it. And, you know, never easy to leave kids and family back home for months at a time. But
Speaker: i think
Speaker: I guess, does that answer your question from that standpoint? Yeah. Yeah, but how about the spin-up? when we In the months prior, did it require a lot of time off from ah from your airline to make that happen? How did you manage it? know, I kind of alluded to it earlier. It really, instead of six days a month, it would turn into eight to 10 days a month.
Speaker: And within that, then I would pull back from Delta in order to facilitate that. um So my time away from home, to the net was not necessarily...
Speaker: different from what my family saw. It's just where I was spending my time. Gotcha. how about the ah How about the return to Delta then? Did you have to go back to the sim, spin up short recoil? The first time we deployed, i did not have to go back to the sim. The second time I did, it was just a short recoil.
Speaker: know Really not a huge deal. I think it was two s sims and then one trip with a line check airman to Vegas and back, and then you're you're good to go. so From that aspect, my personal opinion is it was...
Speaker: I never really liked going to Atlanta, but the training that I received down there is always good. I feel like I learned something every time I go down there. so ah And I'm sure that is any any major airline schoolhouse is not the place that you really wanna hang out every day.
Speaker: um So for me, it was it was pretty seamless.
Speaker: How about you, Mike? Yeah, i did I did most of my deployments on active duty, so a little opposite of Scott. um I did just do a deployment earlier this year.
Speaker: And I'd say generally, from the F35 side, I think I'm been in line with what Scott said, you know they they're going to want maybe eight to 10 days at least a month prior to leaving in as for a part-timer. And really, same thing. it's I'm gone either way for my family, whether it be Delta or the garden.
Speaker: It's really kind of transparent to them. um yeah At least for Delta, I can say they've always been extremely supportive of military service. Never have had a question. Always been super easy.
Speaker: um In fact, even the process is very easy. It's not time intensive or confusing. and on And then, know, terms of proficiency, I think that's dependent on usually, you know, the weapons officer is going to have a whole spin up plan that he's, if he's a good weapons officer, he's going to have kind of his ideal plan for the guys who are full time all the time. And then he's going to have a plan for this is what I need from the part timers to be ready to whatever that expectation level is. And I think that's also going to be dependent on
Speaker: the theater you're going to and know what the temperature of the water is in that theater at that point in time. you know, I don't think every single one is going to look exactly the same as the last one.
Speaker: Uh, but, uh, yeah for for this last one i did it was was pretty straightforward uh we were in the in pay tom in the pacific so not out there dealing with iran and stuff like some of the other squadrons were um but you know that was just kind of a basic spin-up and uh when i got there in theater uh you know did a lot of pretty heavy study the first week or so to make sure i was spun up on spins the latest intel You know, what are the Chinese doing in the area? All that kind of stuff. And if you're an experienced guy who's been flying fighters for a long time, you're coming off active duty after 10, 11 years, like you you've got a a lot of,
Speaker: I guess what i like to joke and call old man strength ah to pull from. And so it's not hard as a fairly experienced IP coming off active duty to kind of like get right back up on step after just a handful of days of studying and flying. Yeah.
Speaker: You like all those compartments are built already. It's just replacing it with the pertinent information currently. Yep. picked out are You still got the muscle memory. You know what you need to know. It's an interesting conversation. I'm i'm interested to dig a little deeper on this. um but You've worn a lot of hats. You've been active duty weapons officer. Now you're a weapons officer in a guard squadron.
Speaker: Tell me, as you talk about the two tiers there your part-timers, how good do you expect your part-timers to be? And ultimately can they reach the same level as your full-timers after your spin-up? Do you, in other words, by the time you're down range, do you see one level across the the squadron or do you still see kind of a two-tiered capability, uh, breakout?
Speaker: Yeah, I think it in my experience, um, I think by the time everyone's downrange and you're just kind of maybe the first week to two weeks is always kind of a you're getting pushed and pulled in a lot of different directions. everyone Everyone's trying to figure it out. But once everyone kind of settles into the battle rhythm, I really haven't seen any real difference. Everyone's on the same level. Everyone's performing where I would expect them to be based on their call. You know, we've been flight lead I.T.,
Speaker: um I think if we rewind a little bit to the spin-up pre-deployment, I think it's um it is sufficient to have part-timers who, you know, they're not going to be the best they've ever been in their career because you just can't maintain the same level of proficiency as a part-timer as you did as your full-timer self in the past. However, with your experience level that mostly that all these part-timers are at, they can very rapidly get back to their you know, just baseline and proficiency as that individual, whoever that is, or you know, whatever they were previously.
Speaker: um So I think a a good spin-up game plan will get any airline guy back to what their best is for whatever that, whoever that individual is, because obviously we all have kind of our own strengths and weaknesses.
Speaker: so package Interesting. um i'll offer I'll offer a slightly different perspective. Again, understanding my role was as an FDU instructor in the schoolhouse, um but I also typically flew more than the six events you guys are talking about, partly because I lived there and I could, i and and I was lucky. I was there in the post 9-11 environment. There was still a lot of man days, ATC,
Speaker: atc ah was producing a lot of fighter pilots at the time and and gave us the resources. So basically, if I wanted to fly, i could probably find a way to fly.
Speaker: But I was always concerned once I started my airline career, how am I going to be back in the Eagle when I'm at work? Am I going to be as good as I was?
Speaker: And I asked a friend of mine, you may know him, a guy named John Hampton. He's an A350 captain for Delta. He's going to retire in November. And John's always been one of my mentors and career-wise, he was always about two years ahead of me at Tyndall.
Speaker: So he had gone, ah become part of this associate unit, was flying for Delta and flying part-time doing the same job I later was doing. And he said, actually, Aaron, I feel like I'm as good or better than I've ever been.
Speaker: um he says, I still fly about the same number of sorties a month. um But the difference is when I come to work, The part of my brain that used to be full worried about my next assignment, worried about my next promotion, worried about, hey, am I going to have an airline job when I get done with this Air Force career?
Speaker: All those ah brain bites have been kind of eliminated. I don't have any clutter because all those questions have been answered. And I'm under a lot less stress.
Speaker: And now when I come to work, all I do is I focus on the flying and the student. And that I would say was my experience. I never felt like I really took a step down in my proficiency level coming off active duty and and coming into the guard. And I actually think over the next six years that I was flying in the guard, i I got to be even better.
Speaker: um And I realized that's not everybody's experience simply because you don't have the resources all the time. You don't have the ability to fly as much as I did. ah But I love that about the job when I was in.
Speaker: The um challenge, of course, that I had came a few years later. went out for a back operation and I was out for eight months. Now that eight month layoff is the longest I'd ever been out of the jet. And when I came back and had to do short recall,
Speaker: I did feel like I i had to play a little bit of catch up there. But other than that little excursion, I never really felt like my proficiency dropped. But again, for the guys that want to work in a FDU schoolhouse, F-15E, F-16 down at, to well, ah wherever they're doing that now. Yeah.
Speaker: You know, ohman yeah um you know You have to be very honest with yourself because there were a lot of days that I went into work thinking, okay, I'm supposed to be bandit number two on a 2v2 today.
Speaker: And instead something happened and they tossed me the pins that morning and going, hey, you're going to run this tactical intercept ride or I need you to fly this B8X ride for a student who's kind of on the ropes.
Speaker: And you know when that happens, you owe these students your very best effort. um You're also flying with pilots that unlike populated typical guard unit, you know, you're your lowest common denominator there is probably a pretty experienced guy with an ops tour under his belt or two, or he's a full timer, you know, on seasoning who's flying a lot.
Speaker: ah I'm flying with guys with 20 or 30 hours in the jet and I'm responsible for them. So on one hand, and the scheduling and the lifestyle might be a little bit easier. But the trade-off is you better come to work every single day with your A game in your pocket.
Speaker: And how does that apply to the airlines? You know, I had a few conversations over my career with chief pilots or pilots calling the schoolhouse. I had a guy call me from Southwest once asking about one of our pilots basically saying, hey, man, you know, hes lot of our pilots drop one trip a month. This guy's dropping two. I'm just wondering if if there's anything you can do to, you know, reduce his workload a little bit and let him work for Southwest.
Speaker: And the answer I gave him was, well, in this case, this guy is one of our few night vision goggle instructors. And he's checking out other instructor pilots as well as students. It was now part of our syllabus on how to use NVGs.
Speaker: And we really can't spare him. yeah we We need the guy. But there's going to be times you're going to have to be very honest with your bosses in that they may have grown up in a culture where you know guys were flying planes.
Speaker: A model, F-16s, they'd show up for a guard weekend, glad to be you know red four or blue four, just hang on the wing and do your job. um There's jobs that allow you to do that.
Speaker: ah There's other jobs out there that that are going to be a little bit more demanding. And you need to be honest with yourself and make sure that you're doing whatever you have to do show up prepared And if that means you've got to tell your boss is, I'm going to have to take a little leave here because i I need to fly more. I need to do this.
Speaker: That's just part of it. Sometimes those are uncomfortable conversations, but you need to be honest with the guy in the mirror when when that happens. um let's so you know We've talked a little about the blocking and tackling, living in base, not living in base, how many days.
Speaker: ah let's get into the fun stuff. I mean, you guys did this by choice. ah So what have you liked about it? What's been the good parts? And then tell me, you know, some of the parts that may have been a little bit a challenge or the not so fun parts.
Speaker: Again, our audiences, guys, and gals that are looking across the fence, jumping out in the airlines or considering you know doing both jobs, what's it gonna be like for them?
Speaker: So I think Mike mentioned it earlier, just briefly, but on the on the good side, You know, not only do you get to continue doing something that's super fun, but the stability piece was huge for me personally in the family. like You know, not knowing that we had the choice, which to be honest, initially was kind of daunting. You know, the first time in your life that you actually have a choice of where you want to live and what you want to do as a big boy.
Speaker: um But that stability was extremely important and and made it much more enjoyable. You know, yes, I would still travel up to Duluth and it was another time away from the family, but I'm also hanging out with amazing people and enjoy enjoying the job. You know, it became um harder to stay proficient just based on our own type A desire to always be the best. And with...
Speaker: your capacity as a part-time guardsman, you kind of need to just accept the fact that the proficiency level is going to dwindle and atrophy a little bit. um So that can be a little bit, from a negative standpoint, tough to swallow.
Speaker: um
Speaker: But yeah, on the good side, the stability piece was was awesome.
Speaker: How about you, Mike? Yeah, I think, yeah you know, I'll look at attacking from the other direction. i mean, Delta has been and I think it's the same for probably any of the airlines.
Speaker: The quality of life has been awesome for my family and I. And, you know, honestly, i i enjoy working at Delta. i enjoy the trips. It's amazing.
Speaker: Is it exciting like flying fighters? Absolutely not. And if it was that exciting, then we're probably in a pretty bad situation. and That's not something want to be doing in an Airbus. but ah But, you know, the job's great. The people are all great. I've worked, I work with there and the quality of life is phenomenal. So it really gives me the ability to do what my family and I want to do in life right now, which is awesome.
Speaker: And then the benefit of staying in the, you know, going in the guard is you you get to do all those awesome things you've been doing for the last 10 or 11 years. i mean, you know, flying fighters has been a childhood dream. I still have a huge grin on my face every time I strap a jet on and go fly.
Speaker: um The last time I flew about a month and a half, two months ago, I flew BFM against my brother. So that was awesome. Obviously, I won. um but But, you know, I mean, it's just it's such an adventure and it's so cool to be able to do ah you know, serve your country, do something where you feel like you're producing something for America in your own way.
Speaker: ah But then also just having the great kind of just civilian quality of life that, ah you know, Delta, United or any of those are able to offer you. um To the proficiency thing you spoke to earlier, i think this is a big discussion we're continuing to have in the F-35 community. We are the first guard unit to go to the F-35. So there's a lot of unknowns, a lot of assumptions without any data behind them.
Speaker: you know what does a part-time f-35 guy look like and um you know and i and i think i can say this is a guy who flew f-16s for almost 10 years um the missions that you fly in the f-35 expectations are substantially larger than what i saw in the f-16 world so i flew f-16s in the guard for about the first year i was there before transitioning to the f-35
Speaker: Like you said, it's easy for guys to show up and say, hey, we're I'm going to fly as Red 4 or we're just going to, we're flying to the range to drop BD33s today. i mean, we've all done that a billion times at that point in our careers. It's easy.
Speaker: you show up off an airline trip and they want you to lead and you know an 8v8 fighting current day chinese threats that are at a pure level uh capability it is it is just far more complex and you know we always kind of say our brand new wingman ah are required to make decisions airborne that Scott and I weren't making till we were probably mid-level flight, four-ship flight leads in the F-16. And that's not to, you know, say that the F-35 guys are better pilots. It's just technology has changed. The threat has changed. The tactics have changed. And it's it's ah been a big discussion on, I don't personally, my opinion is I don't think
Speaker: an F-35 part-timer can truly maintain like the same level of proficiency as their full-time self. um And so it really just comes down to being you know, safe flying the airplane, being tactically capable to not be a massive DFP or debrief focus point generator every sortie.
Speaker: um But also acknowledging putting your ego away and acknowledging that, hey, you're not going to be as good as you once were when you're full time. And it's not a substantial decrease, but it is noticeable if you can put the ego away and just be self reflect there.
Speaker: um And just accept that, you know enjoy the ride and you will advocate for yourself. Take those extra days off from Delta to get those flights that you need to be safe because it is a dangerous job and and it's an important job. So, you know, if you need a little extra of flying or Sims to be at a safe, tactical, good enough level for day to day training, then like take those. You need to do that for yourself. You owe it to I think your squadron, you it to your family because they want to see you at the end of the day. so It's kind of my soapbox on that one. it It's very valid, you know, and and a lot of us, and I think we've we've talked about it is being honest with yourself about your capabilities and where you are and understanding, ah having the maturity and the humility to go, okay, I need to temper it back a little bit today or accept where I am. And obviously the professionalism and pride to continue to work towards um filling the shortfalls where you can, when you can't.
Speaker: um You know, when I look back at why I did the guard, ah you have to realize when I joined the twin towers were still smoldering. The passenger carrier business was headed towards its really toughest period and in modern history, post 9-11 environment.
Speaker: um It was a security blanket. It was a job. It was a way to maintain currency. Should become furloughed or find myself out on the street for a while?
Speaker: And it was a lifeboat for most of my friends that were in the past few carriers, because pretty much everybody I knew at American Delta and United that had gotten out in the last two or three years was furloughed during that period.
Speaker: So they were back in the unit, you know, in the lifeboat. And the thing is, nobody missed a meal. Nobody missed a mortgage payment. Nobody had problems securing healthcare. care We found a way to get orders and and ah the resources to those guys.
Speaker: And they worked their ass off. I mean, they they were worth the investment. They, they, Rolled up their sleeves and they did a lot of great work. um So the lifeboat aspect is one that I think a lot of people underestimate.
Speaker: And especially, you know, if your picture of what the airline industry looks like is snapping back, looking from 2010 Ford, pretty much been, you know, rainbows and unicorns, but for the COVID.
Speaker: Yeah. And then when Congress stepped in and protected the airlines during COVID, most people really didn't have a ah super downside during that period, but it could have been horrific.
Speaker: um So I think the security of it is great. A couple of other things that were really important to me, and I realized this after I retired, um I always felt like when I turned on the news and I saw something terrible happening in the world at CNN,
Speaker: I was going to be involved or I was i was in the loop. I was doing something. And while sometimes that felt like a burden, it was also a comfort to me. Hey, I'm involved. I'm um on the team, you know, if I'm needed somewhere in the world.
Speaker: And that's a pretty satisfying feeling. You know, ah Cash mentioned going to work with the people to your left and right. I've never worked with better people or people I was proud of to be associated with. That was fun.
Speaker: um The money, you know ah the last few contracts at the legacy airlines have really but been lucrative. And I think for many pilots now, a day at the airline would pay considerably more than a day working in the guard or reserve.
Speaker: When I was serving in the early 2000s, that wasn't the case. it was It was pretty close. I could make as much money working in the guard as I could. um at my airline at the time. I was a second officer and then a first officer on the 727 at FedEx.
Speaker: But the money was nice. The money was a a nice tool for a growing family, offered a lot of stability. I don't underestimate that. um And then, you know, it's also a great tool.
Speaker: If you look right now, there are people but the first time in in my life, people are reading FedEx, looking at other airlines. um people that might be needing jobs at places like Spirit. you know If you're in a Guard or a Reserve unit, you've probably got contacts at all these different airlines, people that you know, people that can vouch for you.
Speaker: um It's no surprise that I see a lot of um guys in the Guard helping their friends and associates get their next jobs, next position. So it's a good job networking tool as well.
Speaker: um As far as the downsides of it, I mean, i tell guys that we're strictly airline pilots this, you know, you're the time you're spending on the Little League field with your kids or out on the lake water skiing or something, I'm getting ready for an instrument check or I'm back in the vault studying, getting ready, you know, to go brief a 4v4 or something like that.
Speaker: You're working two jobs. And honestly, the the fighter job is much more complicated, in-depth more challenging job than the airline job is. And it seems like once you get those airline skills, kind of nail them down, you need to hone them and you need to make sure that you review now and then.
Speaker: But I don't think the skills are nearly as perishable as the fighter pilot skills. So, you know, you're working two jobs and there's a time and a place that...
Speaker: in life where I think it's worth it. You roll up your sleeves and you get it done and it's worth it. Now that I'm, you know, over 60, I look back and kind of amazed that I actually did it. I'm a heck of lot lazier now than I used to be.
Speaker: But I never... I never felt like I was working when I was going into the guard base. I was serving. was flying. i was ah was doing something.
Speaker: um But it felt more like a calling than a job when I was doing And I guess the last reason I really enjoyed it and, you know, updo you may have this as a weapons officer, but I tell guys anything i ever did,
Speaker: that was good in the Eagle, I never came up with it. The only reason I did it was because somebody else taught it to me, beat it into me, had the patience to show me repeatedly how to do it.
Speaker: And I got to spend a decade in our schoolhouse returning that investment on the next generation of of Eagle drivers. And that was that's a great feeling. And it's a lot of fun now in my airline career to bump into people that I trained 15 or 20 years ago on the Eagle and and have them say things like, wow, you really helped me or you were always great to fly with. You were one of my favorite instructors. you know that That's a That's a ah nice feeling that that I still cherish.
Speaker: So I think that that's the good part of it. Was it work? Yeah. um Was it worth it? Absolutely. And then the last thing, and I never did it for the retirement.
Speaker: I really kind of dismissed the garbage time thinking would be insignificant. But when I turned 60 and I started getting those checks, We live in Park City, Utah now, and my guard retirement pays for my home here.
Speaker: and And that was something that was never really in my calculus. I knew it was a good secure job, it was another source of revenue when I needed it as a younger person. But that reward's been been pretty nice.
Speaker: And ah you may not think it's gonna be important now, but I tell guys, once you're once you get about 10 years of active at duty in, try to find a way to do something, you're gonna be glad that you did.
Speaker: um
Speaker: Both you guys, you know, I talked about maintaining the IP level of proficiency because I was teaching, I was example, i was kind of a ah safety net for the students out there.
Speaker: ah You guys taking one step further, you're out there frontline combat units. um What do you think it takes to to be not only tactically proficient, you know, when you're in Egypt, but safe and a highly demanding mission. How did you prioritize, you know, your own safety and proficiency when you were going to work and what lessons would you pass on to a younger pilot who's trying to step into your shoes?
Speaker: Man. um I think from,
Speaker: so to your point, I guess from ah from a safety and and proficiency level, um you kind of need to go out there every single day with a little bit of just knowing your own limitations. And we've hit this a couple of times before already and in the chat here, but um being humble enough to accept but the fact that you aren't always gonna be on your A game and going into it with that knowledge of,
Speaker: And to be honest, you know i was carried as an instructor pilot in Duluth from the day that I showed up. Now, were they gonna put me as the IP of record on an iPUG pre-cert ride for a kid who's going through the instructor pilot upgrade?
Speaker: ah Probably not, just because you know my the tools that I brought or what I brought to the game was you know the God's eye view, the is this smart? you know Are are we are we executing within the rules here?
Speaker: um And that's what they looked to me for from an experience standpoint. So i think that that is something that just becomes invaluable. um right And just being you know kind of the the father figure almost of saying, hey, this all sounds great. The plan is awesome.
Speaker: you know But the weather's crap, has anyone looked at that yet? you know Asking the big picture questions of how can we actually do this in a safe manner?
Speaker: um And knowing that you have that to fall back on, I would say is the big thing that I took or brought, if you will. and Clepto, any thoughts?
Speaker: Yeah, I think, you know, on that lines, the expectation for an experienced part-timer in my mind is I still expect your, your airmanship, your, your essay, that, that big picture awareness that Scott's talking about. i expect that all to be there at an IP level, if you will.
Speaker: A lot of times when I see, when I say, you know, your proficiency is lower, A lot of times it's not in those things that I just stated. It's, you know, you haven't read the newest 3-1 update that just came out a month ago because you've been busy flying for the airlines and stuff. Well, the young guys who are there full time, they've read it three times over.
Speaker: And so, yeah, they may go, well, hey, this number changed to something different because of X, Y, and Z. And you said, oh I didn't know that. You know, thanks thanks for for letting me know. And you filed that one away. And, ah yeah you know, you dumped the old number and now you got the new number. Air-to-air timelines, for example, have changed.
Speaker: I feel like about 60, 69 times in the F-35 community in the time I've been in it. And it's just constantly evolving. And a lot of times I'll show up to the squadron, go talk to my buddy, who's the current patch and go, what's changed?
Speaker: And he says, well, here's these two things that have changed. I said, great. That's what I'm going to teach and execute too. yeah, I don't find my proficiency on airmanship, big picture essay um you know making sure guys are staying in the airspace or not getting themselves in trouble when I'm monitoring a young women. yeah like Those skills, I think, are still there. And I don't really expect to atrophy too much. It's more just the very technical knowledge that can get stale.
Speaker: Maybe your fingers aren't moving as fast as you'd like them to on the throttle and stick. um So maybe you're making, you're a little bit slower to add an air, you know, a radar contact your shoot list to employ Amran. But just because you're three quarters of a second slower at that is not a huge game changer in a training environment. And you can pick that three quarters of a second ah action back up real quick through spin up. So.
Speaker: You know, what I did find that i I would need to practice and update is you would think that after all these years, we would have our comm completely nailed. But periodically, the 3-1 conference, we're going to change to something.
Speaker: And, you know, I remember being scolded on a Montana deployment to... uh, for, uh, saying Northern instead of North group or something along those lines of a big critique. And of course I'm thinking, yeah, but I shot that guy off your tail.
Speaker: Save the sort you missed. But yeah, I did screw up the calm. Uh, but, uh, you know, it's, uh, it is, you've got you got to pay attention to details, go in humble, get little help every once in a while.
Speaker: Um, But yeah, the the big picture stuff, I think, is still there. Like Scott said, you know you're kind of the ah kind of the old man in the room going, is this past the common sense test?
Speaker: um you know We've been at this a while. I'm going to start to narrow it down and speed things up a little bit. But ah for pilots that are um looking at doing this, let's talk about the interaction with the airline. Have you ever had any...
Speaker: negative interactions with your airline about taking mill leave or been pressured not to take mill leave or had any major issues? And if so, do you have advice for guys on the ways to avoid?
Speaker: you know, the the best quote I heard was a retired Navy captain who was a Navy Reserve is telling me being in the Guard gives you the opportunity equally disappoint your employer, your unit, and your spouse.
Speaker: And it does seem like you're always in some kind of battle trying to keep everybody happy in a triage state, you know understanding you're never going to make everybody completely happy. But for the employer, ah any war stories or tips for success that you would pass on?
Speaker: you know For me, i will say that Delta has been nothing short of great when it comes to working with military folks. Now there's always gonna be, you know, the outlier individual who attempts to take advantage of the rules, but there are very specific rules that are laid out in a manner that are very easy to follow. And as long as you color within those lines,
Speaker: um It's not that they're not going to bother you, but they're just like, yeah, he's following the rules or she's following the rules. And they're going to let you go about your business and and do what you need to do. um Because they, i've to be honest, I feel like they understand the importance of having assets like, you know, the the group that we're talking with here, military fighter pilots ah in their pilot group ranks.
Speaker: um And. that it? from that standpoint, I've never had a personal issue. I've definitely heard of folks who have had issues, but it always comes down to the fact that they were trying to speed or they were trying to manipulate some things that they probably weren't supposed to be doing and either got caught or were,
Speaker: um
Speaker: or maybe choosing to interpret words in a different way to make them benefit themselves. Running the ragged edge. I get You know,
Speaker: Mike, I said, as long as you color within the lines, they're they're extremely easy to work with. Mike, have you found anything different? No, I agree with everything you said. Delta has been awesome. um I think they're very supportive military service. And I do think it actually helps Delta to have guys like us fly with them because the reality is you're i mean you guys all know it's you're like cruise on autopilot just watching the fms do its thing for hours at a time like you can atrophy on hand flying and although delta does encourage pilots to hand flying and and i
Speaker: definitely do when I can, but it's not the same as flying a fighter hand flying where we hand fly the whole thing pretty much. Uh, or if you're someone who flies general aviation a lot, that's another great way to stay warm on just those piloting skills that can atrophy in the airlines. say You know, you, you refuse to do it. And I've flown with some captains who are seem to be afraid of hand flying and it's,
Speaker: It is pretty much managing the box most of the flight um other than, you know, initial takeoff and final landing after configuration. So um i think it's beneficial to Delta and I think they know that.
Speaker: An example of where guys would get themselves into trouble would just be. you know Maybe you're not adhering to the commuter policy and you realize you're not going to be able to commute for your trip that you're supposed to be there for. And so you at the last minute say, oh, I'm on military leave and you're nowhere near your guard unit. That's a easy example of not following the rules and doing something really stupid to try to save your butt. ah But outside of...
Speaker: You know, situations like that, I don't think the rules are onerous. I think they're very easy to follow. you know, I'm never sitting there thinking, man, Delta really makes us hard to be a guard guy.
Speaker: Like, not at all. Well, um yeah, you mentioned the the hand flying. I used to say i don't think I was ever a better pilot than when I was flying the F-15, the 727, and I had an old Navy on, and I'd fly all them the same week.
Speaker: I've gotten both of them in a day. I've never gotten all all three in the same day. But all were round dial airplanes, all required a lot of hand flying, and they all required you know different skills.
Speaker: And when I quit flying in the in the guard and then ah went abroad and I didn't have GA, i've I missed both.
Speaker: you know i' I've got a Cirrus now, and obviously I don't have an F-35 or F-15 out and play with. but Like you mentioned, I do think a different kind of flying and and the hand flying, even though it's a very different genre, I think some of the skills carry over.
Speaker: You guys have been very blessed with your employer. I want to talk to guys who do occasionally have some friction. um When I was a senior part-time guy at Tyndall, I mentioned Southwest.
Speaker: I got a call from chief pilot a couple of times basically saying, hey, you know, pilots, typically my company asks for one trip off. This guy's asking for two. is there any way you can massage things?
Speaker: um And at my current employer, we've always had a retired general, two or three star, that after they retire, the company employs to be their military ah leave liaison.
Speaker: And these people have been known to call units and say, hey, this is, and they'll use their military identify, general so-and-so calling. I'm asking about um Captain or major so-and-so, you know he's employed by FedEx and of we coming up on a busy period, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: And ah we can go back and forth about the ethics of using a retired general officer to ask guys or call these guys and ask them about their mill leave. But what I will say is if you're in a unit and you do have an environment that's like this, the best prevention I have for it is a little bit of inoculation.
Speaker: And I explained to my leadership, hey, you may get a call. And it wasn't even related to me. It was related to another pilot that I worked with that was coming up on an extended program.
Speaker: set of orders, ah you may get a call. And this is what it's going to sound like. And it's going to sound like, oh, you know we really support our military guys and we appreciate everything he does. And man, this guy is just an awesome cat.
Speaker: But you know this is a peak time. And I was wondering if you know blah, blah, blah, make the request. And what I always tell people is they know the request is going to get denied. The the orders are not going to be curtailed.
Speaker: The deployment's not going to be canceled. But what it is, it's designed not to keep you from doing this deployment. It's to give you pause before you ask for military leave for your next sequence of orders or your next block of R-days that you're going to knock out. It's psychological warfare.
Speaker: And if you let the unit know, and I let the leaders know, hey, this is this is what the call is going to sound like. They're going to identify themselves. And this is what they're going to ask. And you know, I got the... ah but feedback later, Albie, bigger than shit, man. It was exactly like you said.
Speaker: If you know that's coming and you know how to handle it and handle it professionally. um Now, Mike brought up the ethics of using military leave. I think we all agree that there are um boundaries and limits. USERA decides some.
Speaker: But the way i always thought about it was like this. ah I have fantastic health care. in my company. I've had a daughter born using my company's medical benefits.
Speaker: I've had numerous little cheerleader injuries to my daughters paid for. I've had two major back operations and a ski operation after busting a tid fit, all taken care of by my company.
Speaker: um you know what do you owe the people that take care of you and your family? I think you owe them an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. I think you owe them ethical behavior.
Speaker: um I've talked about the responsibility the commitment if you're flying a fighter, how dangerous it is. You need to be honest with yourself. You need to make sure you take the time off necessary to make sure you've got the rest that you're able to study, that you're able to prepare, that you're able to show up for both jobs, fit and ready to fly. And I don't want you to do that.
Speaker: But you can probably do those in ways that are not egregious to the company or disrespectful to the company that you're going to be working for for the next 15, 20, 25 years.
Speaker: And I'll just leave it at that. um But you do have certain rights. You need to know those rights under you, Sarah. You need to know who your advocates are in case you run across you know a manager who may not completely understand how demanding your job is.
Speaker: And let's be honest, if you're flying... um transport category airplane ah in the Air Force, if you're doing a non-flying ah job in the Air Force, um the responsibilities and the and the stress that's involved with doing those jobs may not be quite the same. you know Not all guardsmen are are doing the same thing and well, middle leave covers all of us.
Speaker: you You do need to understand some jobs need a little bit more effort than others. and And be honest with yourself about that. And if your company doesn't understand that, you know maybe sit down talking to your supervisors there about why it's important and and what your goals are might be time well spent.
Speaker: um
Speaker: If we've got people sold, yeah, I want to do this. I want to go fly F-35s in the Guard. I got a hometown i sixteen unit. I want to join. And you get some guys showing up at your door. What advice would you give them two one, successfully rush and become part of that unit?
Speaker: And then, two, once they're in that unit, to contribute and be successful and be a good Guard member?
Speaker: Sure. You know, as far as, yeah, big picture, as far as rushing, um Yeah, we got to meet you. We got to know you. I mean, we're going to do bro checks on you. We're going to call people we know who know you um and we're going ask about you. So I think visiting is important and to be yourself. I mean, we can all look at your resume. You're almost certainly qualified. well You know, paperwork wise. It's just, you know, do you match with the unit? Does it make sense for your specific family situation?
Speaker: I think those are all things that, you know, we as the guys in the unit are smart to think about. on And so I guess that's what I'd say from a rushing standpoint. You I'm usually asked guys like, you why are you looking at doing this? um There's no right or wrong answer per se, ah but it does give me some insight into kind of what are your motivations?
Speaker: i You know, because like like you said, Aaron, I mean, it's important to... care about, i mean, your employer matters in supporting what they are asking you to do They're the ones paying, giving you your paycheck, paying for your healthcare, all that. And that goes for both the the guard as well as the airline.
Speaker: um So, you know, are you going to be a guy, do I get a feeling that you're going to completely min-run the guard as much as possible? Or the other side of the coin, you're going to try to min-run the earth the airline as much as possible. Well, how do you think the airline's going to look at that? So, um again, color within the lines, as Scott has said before, on both sides of the fence, and you'll be fine. you it yeah I think it is completely manageable, especially for...
Speaker: the type of people that have flown fighters in the air force for 10 11 years like you're obviously an extremely capable human being like so this will not be a difficult task for you it'll just be a new task that you haven't experienced yet on active duty uh but it's it's really not bad at all like the water is great the temperature is great pop on in uh is you know i definitely would recommend anyone look at that option as you approach that kind of fork in the road in your career uh when that upt absc is about to expire that's your time you have decide if you're going to stay in 20 years active duty if you do that's great um but if you want to look at the other option of you guard civilian employment whether that's airlines or something else like take a good look at it because there's a there's a lot pros uh to go in that direction
Speaker: yeah Good stuff. and You anything to ask, Tom? I mean, really not a ton. I think the big highlight there is we're pretty much taking this from an angle of those separating from the active duty and going into a guard unit as opposed to like a college kid off the street who's trying to get married, which is completely fine. And the big highlight there is...
Speaker: Days of yore, I feel like there was a little bit more corporate knowledge within the squadron because there was a consistent pipeline and maybe this is just specific to units that I'm familiar with, but there's a high likelihood that you're just not going to know a lot of people in that unit. So you got to get yourself there.
Speaker: you know You need to make make your intentions known. And as Mike said, just be honest right up front and be like, this is what I want to do. There's no right or wrong answer, but they'll let you know how they can work with you and what how that might need to be curtailed in order to facilitate both their goals and yours.
Speaker: um But at that point, you're likely you know exiting your your active duty service commitment and the likelihood of you being an instructor pilot is probably high. So unless you're transitioning to a different airframe, you know it's gonna be plug and play.
Speaker: And most units can utilize that right off the bat. um So it's a win-win for everybody. Just be be a good person. um The bro checks will happen. And as long as you've been a good person in the past, I'm sure that'll work out.
Speaker: um I'll offer a couple of of hiring tips for somebody who wants to join an existing unit. And I'll caution that you know I went into a very politically charged environment.
Speaker: I was in a guard unit that was embedded in an active duty. I think they call it rainbow now, or there's various nomenclatures. But the point is... um I was a guardsman flying active duty jets in an active duty squadron.
Speaker: So you can imagine the level of scrutiny that myself and my peers were under. We had a mix of part-timers and full-timers. um So some of the things that I will highlight may more important for that kind of unit, but I think they're important for any of them.
Speaker: The first thing is when you're getting out of the active duty, um the advice that I give guys is don't give up your dreams. Now, if your dream is to go to weapons school and you were a first alternate or a second alternate, maybe you've aged out of the eligibility. And I had this happen to a guy who later became a wing commander Now they started out, you know, weapons officer, wing commander, squadron commander, all the highlights in Oregon.
Speaker: But he'd done well on a couple of wick looks. Air Force came out and said, yeah, we're lowering the, or raising the, or I guess lowering the maximum age.
Speaker: So he was suddenly thinking, yeah, I've missed the boat. I'm going to go off and I'm going to do this remote staff tour. And then I've got to follow on to Alaska and the Eagle. And I knew they were rushing some people at Klamath. And in this case, it was full time.
Speaker: But I told him, one, I think you ought to at least go talk to him. And two, I think you need to dust off your weapons school ah briefings because I think you're still competitive because the guard won't have that same age restriction.
Speaker: and And that's exactly how it worked out for him. So here you've got a guy who's an overachiever on active duty. He's working his butt off. He comes a little short just due to timing and um the way things were going.
Speaker: And then he has a fantastic career in the guard afterwards. So one bit of advice I have if you're making the transition or you're rushing units is Don't give up on what you want to do. If you want to go to safety school, if you want to go to TPS, if you know when you're in the guard system, there may still be options for you.
Speaker: and And I think that's one of the incentives because a guard unit doesn't look at you with a three-year timeframe. We got to amortize this investment for this unit. They're looking at it over you know sometimes a 10 or 15-year timeframe.
Speaker: The other thing that I give advice to guys that are doing is ah this, is I remind them,
Speaker: You're coming in and while it may be a little different as a part-timer, you still have responsibilities that go outside the cockpit. You may be the best pilot in the world.
Speaker: But we had a couple of guys rush our unit. I'll give you the tale of of two turndowns or one that we let go. um We had one guy who was in the active duty squadron.
Speaker: And as long as he was working in something he thought was important, i.e. the weapon shop, he was great. yeah he worked his butt off. But when he was working in training or Stanoval or some of the other ancillary stuff, he didn't think it was important.
Speaker: So when we got a SAB visit and they're having to clean up after him for stuff that didn't get done, when the Stanoval files were a mess, um you know it made it a little tougher to consider him.
Speaker: If you tell me you're going to put your heart and soul into this unit, and you know I think Klepto has pointed out how difficult it is in an F-35 unit to maintain even a basic level of proficiency, it's a lot of work.
Speaker: And if you go, well, I'm going to work hard for you, I'm going to do whatever it takes. And I look at what you did on active duty, and I see that, well, you didn't really work with the stuff that didn't interest you, or you're kind of on cruise control.
Speaker: um The ship that you don't think is important might still be important to the unit. So it sounds corny, but I tell guys, look, you don't have to want to be chief of staff the Air Force, but guard units want good officers.
Speaker: They want good workers. They want people are going to show up and roll up their sleeves. So the better you do in your active duty career, it's not like I want you to sandbag and go, yeah, I don't care about that because I'm going to go be a guard guy.
Speaker: Well, who's the guard going to hire? They're going hire people that are good at what they've done for the last 10 years. So don't try to coast in or sneak in the back door because you may find that door is closed.
Speaker: And then along with that, we did hire somebody that didn't last but a few months um because, as I mentioned, they came from another guard unit where they were instructor pilot, qualified, well-liked, well-respected.
Speaker: But they came over to an active duty wing, active duty squadrons teaching in a schoolhouse and really did want to do kind of bro briefs after their IPOC. They were showing up late for briefs, you know, the unholiest of unholies and things like that.
Speaker: And they didn't last. So, you know, the other thing that I tell guys when you're when you're in the unit is – respect the effort of your peers that are absolutely busting their ass to try to make it work.
Speaker: And that means, you know, being early in on time, being all the things that we we did when we were active duty. um Yeah, you know, it is kind of nice to work in an environment where you feel like you can ah back it down a couple of notches on the briefings because you're working with highly experienced peers. you know You can say standard a lot more than you can then you during in an upgrade brief or things like that.
Speaker: But the effort still matters. The attention to detail still matters. And if you found guys that were already trying to phone it in, especially as they were starting it, at least in our unit, it it kind of set off the whistles and bells a little bit.
Speaker: um The last advice I have for an airline guy coming into a guard unit is remember your audience. You're going to have some guys like you.
Speaker: And I always thought I was the luckiest son a bitch on the planet, that I was working in an airline, doing a job I loved, still getting to fly fighters, doing a job I love, getting paid for both, and having the flexibility with both to manipulate my schedule a little bit to create a reasonable quality of life, even though I was working really hard.
Speaker: But there's guys in the unit, you know, and in my situation, we had active duty people everywhere, but we also had AGRs, full timers. And full timers aren't walking around with a Delta W-2 in their pocket.
Speaker: They're not non-revving to Fiji or going on fun vacations like you might be in your time off. And a little bit of SA and sensitivity to realize, you know, everybody chooses a different path, but, um,
Speaker: I always tried to be very modest and I did not talk about my airline stuff when I was in the squatter. If somebody asked me, hey, tell me about life at FedEx. How do you like your airline job?
Speaker: How does it work? How do you make all this happen? I would tell them, oh, I'd love to tell you all about it. It's a great life. But I've got ah an ACM hop here in about 45 minutes. Why don't we do this?
Speaker: You know, close the business today. Let's grab a beer. We'll go back in and close the briefing room and I'll tell you all about it. And you know, I do that. And when I shut the door, boy, I get evangelical with my go. Oh, it's the greatest thing in the world for me.
Speaker: i really like it. But here's how I make it work. It may be right for you. It may not. Here's here's some considerations. But my point is, I was not walking around flaunting the fact I was an airline pilot or you know And I know ah these days, we are at such a nice point in our careers right now in the airline industry.
Speaker: Profit sharing checks, new contracts, there's a lot to get excited about. It can change the life of your family. And it's I'm thrilled for guys to get that. But you have to realize in that guard unit, there's guys who, for whatever reason, maybe they couldn't go there, chose for family reasons, opted for security over opportunity, but they didn't follow that path.
Speaker: And you're going to go to war with the guys in your guard unit. know These the people that are going to have your back. I don't want irritate them, flaunt them, diminish them, or make them uncomfortable. I want to build them up.
Speaker: So a certain sense of modesty and humility as you rush these units, and certainly once you're in maintaining that, ah I think is going to make your career in the guard a lot more successful.
Speaker: And you know it's funny to me because there's a lot of hardcore airline guys that I never thought would really stick around and make the guard a career that are one and two star generals now.
Speaker: And these were guys who absolutely did that advice. you know When they were in the guard unit, they were working for Delta, they were working for United, but they were all about the unit when they were there. They kept their mouth shut about all their good deals.
Speaker: They became friends with everybody in the unit, full-timer, the active duty exchange guys. And they really worked on building through those relationships.
Speaker: And some of them are wing commanders and generals at the Air Force level now because of those decisions. And the guy who kind of comes in, waves his W-2 and brags about his last... ah ah Paris vacation with his family to guys and gals who may not have those opportunities.
Speaker: I don't see them around as much. So again, playing the long game, ah little humility goes a long way. So that's kind of my spiel.
Speaker: What have we not shared with people that are thinking about doing this or or getting started at it that want to be successful that we've left off? Any parting shots or mean words to our audience out there?
Speaker: I mean, there's there's so much to to obviously explore. What were you going to say, Mike? no, go ahead.
Speaker: You know, Aaron, I can't think of a ton. I mean, I'm sure that there's plenty more that we could chat about and maybe we do it again sometime, but um nothing nothing comes to mind right now.
Speaker: I think probably big thing I tell guys when they start asking about the guard and all that is when you start rushing, be open-minded to all the different avenues you could go into the guard. um it's easy for a lot of active duty guys to go, well, want to be full time, I want to do the same thing I'm doing now just with guard patches. And that might work out for you.
Speaker: But it's pretty common to kind of get the response, hey, we might be able to hire you as a part timer. And they go, what does that mean? And, um you know, I think people need to be be open to that be open to maybe you're lucky and they go, hey, we can give you six months of full time orders after active duty. But then after that,
Speaker: I don't know, plan on being a part-timer. So that can be scary to guys because since you've probably been 18, you've been at the Academy or ROTC or whatever for most of us. And you've had the air force just do kind of plan a lot of your baseline life things. And now you're having to kind of jump with a leap of faith a little bit.
Speaker: And so I think it's important for guys to just be open to all those options. You know, if you want full time, that's great, but don't be afraid from taking the part-time deal, get your foot in the door with the unit that you want to be at and then work from there. What I've seen in my, i guess I've been in the guard now for about eight years and almost every time somebody really wants full-time orders for whatever amount of time, it almost always works out in one way or another.
Speaker: And is it guaranteed? No. But reality has shown me that, and history has shown me, that guys generally get it in some form or or fashion. so It takes more trust, a little more faith than your active duty time has been.
Speaker: ah But it generally works out. And I think that i think that can almost universally to be said about the guard across the board. so i I would concur with that. After nine eleven every part-timer who needed a job, needed orders, we were able to get in Florida Guard.
Speaker: with They were taken care of. They had a safety net under them. Yeah, and i think that's I think that exists and people just need to know it exists even if it doesn't seem like that at first contact.
Speaker: Yeah, and if you're concerned, you know, the the the good thing about this country is we always seem to be able to schedule a war every couple of years. So, you know, we start talking about DoD cutbacks and this, that, the other. Hey, we're going to go bomb Iran or we're going to, you know, spin up in the Pacific and do some contingency ops over there, keep the ah South China Sea from getting too hot.
Speaker: um You know, it's a dynamic world. And I, you know, I think it's... I think for most pilots, you're going to find it's a whole lot harder to get that sticky booger off your finger and to get out and to get away from it.
Speaker: you know You're more likely to get stop lost and held on to than you are ah worried about getting a rift or or not being able to find work, especially if you're current qualified and you know you take a little bit of pride in your work and you're you're somebody who's who's trying to do it the right way.
Speaker: They're going to find a way to keep you around. That's been... That's been my experience. And on that vein, Aaron, I think one thing we haven't really explored that there's an an entire other conversation to go down is just the amount of different options available, not even within the squadron, you know, but like take Mike, for example, and you know, doing something a little bit off the wall that not many people think about, but there are, there are ways that the guards can guard can employ you and utilize your skillset in ways that are not
Speaker: what your brain necessarily thinks is standard. You know, just going and flying the aircraft. You know, you might still be current qualified in the airplane, but they've got you doing special projects in DC, or, you know, they've got you managing a program from your house or or whatnot. Like there's so many different options available and asking those questions.
Speaker: um and i've had I've had friends on the staff at PACAF and Hickem, um in Korea and at Ramstein and Yusufi. So yeah, if you get in the guard, you can play it just like active duty. And and once you're in a unit too, you did it. You left Tucson to go to ah Duluth.
Speaker: There is some lateral mobility um once you're in. So you're not, you know, if you want to stay, you can usually stay, but there's also opportunities if you if you want to move for for whatever reasons.
Speaker: One thing I will also talk about the success, when Klopto talked about um AGR versus orders versus part-timer.
Speaker: It's interesting. When the airlines are hiring, typically everybody wants a part-time slot. when When economic times are bad, everybody wants an AGR slot. um When I was rushing the ah guard unit in Florida, at that time, it was an airline ah surge. It was late 1990s.
Speaker: And I was told, look, those part-time slots are very competitive. You're going to get one if you want it. you know you You're that kind of guy. However, and this is Charlie Campbell going,
Speaker: You will complete your PME on time because I'm not going to have you sitting there blocking a major spot that I can hand to somebody else behind you because you were too damn lazy to do your online training and get promoted.
Speaker: And he goes, I will not tolerate people who don't do their PME here. And his thing wasn't that he was trying to make me the next chief of staff of the Air Force or commanding general of the Air National Guard. It was strictly slot management.
Speaker: But you know I took that to heart. And as soon as I got in, I did it. And it was stupid. And it was painful. And it took a little time. But you know I piddled away at it when I was on man days anyway. I was getting paid for it.
Speaker: And I got it done. And guess what happened? I got 05 a couple of years early with the unit vacancy. And it was so funny because when, you know, ah dumbass average Albie over there suddenly gets promoted to lieutenant colonel and i leapfrogged a couple of my ah ah AGR peers, you know, they told me later, Albie, there was not a better impetus to get guys off their ass than when they saw you come in as lieutenant colonel. They're like, well, dang, I guess I better do that too.
Speaker: But that's the other thing I would say is, ah you know, there's some great opportunities once you're in the system. And if the unit needs you to get promoted to make spots for other people, you know do it.
Speaker: It's part of the obligation. and you know It's a little bit more money. ah But that was that was an example of what I meant about being an officer. Hey, you know don't come in there and just try to coast the whole time. If they ask you to do something, do it.
Speaker: um Let's talk about our legacies for a minute. ah Klepto, you got you got a little longer to go, but the end of the tunnel is visible to you if you want to head on out.
Speaker: um Cash left a couple years ago. I'm i'm the old fart in the room. So start with you. What do you hope your legacy is? what are you looking forward to no in retirement? And what do you think you're going to miss? You know, as far as legacy, I mean, really my goal for my whole career has been to not be the limb fact as much as I can, um you know, to work hard to produce the best I can and hopefully leave something, a process, a place better than when I found it.
Speaker: And to make the young guys better than I would better than i was at their age. You know, that that was always that's always been my goal. So I'm not sure that I... I don't really care if people honestly remember my name in Vermont, you know, a few years after I'm gone. And that's that's all good because the reality is we're all replaceable. but the the The unit will continue to march on.
Speaker: That doesn't mean I won't have lifelong friends out of my time in the Guard. I'm sure we will keep in touch. But I think that's real that's really it. It's just, you know did I leave it better than I found it? Did I make people the best fighter pilots that I could help make them as, you know whether that be as a weapons officer or or just just a friend talking in the bar? um you know what What am I looking forward to? um You know, I think, ah you know, being being kind of in the both worlds right now, if you're almost one foot in what I call phase two of life.
Speaker: ah And so, know, my kids are kind of in that. i got one teenager, one one preteen. And, you know, I'm just enjoying life with the kids, doing doing all the things that we get to do because, know,
Speaker: ah you know When they're 18, they're out of the house as as a typical saying. And so I've i've only got a few years to and enjoy what that means with them living in here. And you know just like Scott mentioned being gone, you like everyone, i've I've missed cumulative multiple years of their lives ah over active duty and deployment. so I'm looking forward to just kind of having more time to do stuff with them ah before they're out of the house. But you know what am I going to miss? Honestly, I think the biggest thing I'll miss is just the the camaraderie, the being around all the bros. To be honest, of course, I've loved every second of flying fighters, and I'll always have great memories of that.
Speaker: But I don't think I'll honestly miss the flying a significant amount. It'll be more just all the all the things you get to do as a fighter squadron that – but I don't think exists almost anywhere else in civilian life, atly at least for guys like us who go to the airlines.
Speaker: um I have great neighbors where I live. i I have good friends here locally, but it's just not the same. ah So I think that's what I'll miss the most. But and I'll be, know, I'm very thankful to have all those memories and experiences. And I'll just look at back at those with fond memories, I guess.
Speaker: Outstanding. Scott, how about you? You know, a lot of it is kind of parroting what Klepto had to say. You know, I get asked this question frequently, you know, do you miss it? And the first thing that comes to my mind has nothing to do with flying.
Speaker: It's all just the people, you know, the the camaraderie, the the laughter, the the sense of, so I mean, the teamwork, you know, that just builds those relationships at such a different level you know,
Speaker: you can really describe. So especially being dislocated from that unit, you know, I'm still great buddies with all those guys. I just don't get to see them as often as I would like to um So that's definitely what I missed. The flying, sure, it'd be great to go fly BFM with Klepto or with you and go rage around and GR faces off. But do I think about it on a daily basis?
Speaker: No, I really don't. um And then the legacy piece, you know, I've never really actually thought about that question. And I don't think I could have put it better than Mike did. You know hopefully looking back on it or still talking to some of the younger guys in the squadron on the group chats to go around now, you can send messages back and forth, you know, that's,
Speaker: That when they see my name, they looked at somebody who showed up, did their job, did it at a high level, you know, and added value and and made the place better. so
Speaker: Well, you and I talked as your finny flight approached and then then afterwards, and right I talked about you know, the relief for the family that comes when we finally make that last step away?
Speaker: you think that was applicable in your family at all?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. The blue car, the blue car in the driveway scenario. You know, I think my wife would be the first to say that she she took the stance of I'm not even going to let that cross my mind.
Speaker: And john so I don't know if there was necessarily a relief just because, you know, we talked about the we had the conversations we had to have. um Yeah, obviously, you know, because we have a family and and need to take care of that.
Speaker: But I think she was just happy but from a family standpoint, it was. Nice to have just one job to focus on and it really allowed me to focus my time here with the family a little bit more. so when a When I took my last sortie January of 2007 and stepped away, um just like both of you said, you know I actually did not miss the flying or think much about the flying.
Speaker: For about 15 years, and first three or four years ago. And it's funny. ah I still dream. I'm usually late for step or I can't find a DTM or it's usually some kind of nightmare scenario.
Speaker: um and And the other thing is funny because I've talked about being a ah team player and contributing in your guard unit. You know, don't be a slacker. try to meet your obligations.
Speaker: In my dreams, I'm the biggest, like I haven't shown squatted for months. I'm barely mission capable. And I'm wondering if i'm even going to be safe on a BFM mission. But I've started thinking and dreaming about it more in the last three or four years than I have in a long time.
Speaker: I find interesting. I don't know exactly why that is, but I didn't miss it. I remember being on my farm in Florida, looking up at guys, because we're right under the Compass Lake Moa, and I'm watching a couple of eagles in ah BFM, guys doing floor jinx, puking out flares.
Speaker: And I'm thinking, I'm glad I'm down here on the farm not doing that right now. You know, I love doing that. i was proud of it. I do think for my family, ah having been in combat basically since my first tour and multiple combat deployments and having had to bury a few friends through the years, I think there was a ah little bit of an exhale from my wife and the family, sort of that, yeah okay, you may get hit by a bus, but I'm not going to have the Air Force chaplain and squadron commander showing up in the blue car my driveway.
Speaker: And i didn't realize how much of a weight that was. I mean, it it wasn't a huge weight because I think like Julie, you know, Missy understood who she married and what our...
Speaker: you know, what the risks were. But when you do walk away the last time, that was a sense of relief. There was a sense of relief of going out with a good name. I'm not a guy who, you dingled up an airplane or did something stupid or didn't make my name a verb and seemed to be held in pretty high regard by my peers. So that's the legacy I wanted. I didn't need to be in the history books, but I wanted the guys that I'd worked with to respect me and like me and appreciate my contribution.
Speaker: And I feel like I did that. um And I certainly am proud looking back at the body of work of of those 20 years that I flew fighters.
Speaker: um What's interesting to me is, you know, a decade and a half later, my youngest daughter is really interested in my military memorabilia.
Speaker: She's interested desert storm history. She asked me routinely about, you know, my experiences there, wants to know, ah details. And my oldest daughter, who's now a pilot for Delta Airlines, she's a 73FO in Salt Lake.
Speaker: um She will occasionally trip across an Eagle video somewhere or YouTube thing and send it to me and ask me about it. She's interested. And it's so much fun now because, you know, she was just my daughter and that was dad's job.
Speaker: Um, I think she appreciated it. But now that she's a professional pilot and she can get a little insight into the challenges and the work and the stuff we did, ah she wants to talk about it now. So maybe that's the reason I dream about it more is because lately there's been more interest in what I used to do from from the family and it's come up.
Speaker: And that's been a that's been a warm nice... ah feeling, adding to what was already a ah pretty good pretty good ride.
Speaker: But I don't know. For the young folks considering, do i want to give up the money and the time and go to the hassle and commute my guard unit? I can tell you it was the highlight of my professional life.
Speaker: I really loved the period where I was doing um both jobs professionally and flying ga It was work. It was sacrifice, but it was absolutely worth it.
Speaker: um I appreciate you guys as highly successful examples of doing the same thing and slightly different roles, sharing your insights. And, you know, I encourage folks if they have questions, you know, email us, call us, write us, let us know what you want to talk about and and we'll, we can do this again.
Speaker: But in the meantime, you guys have any last reattacks?
Speaker: I appreciate you having me on, Albie. And I'll say to everyone out there, go guard. It's 100% worth it. Yeah, it's been a great reward for my life. So again, guys, I appreciate your time today.
Speaker: Thank you so much for your contributions. And, you know, keep doing what you're doing. We'll chat soon. Thank you for joining us today. This has been Cockpit Conversations with Aaron Hagen from Emerald Coast Interview Consulting.
Speaker: Have some ideas for future interesting episodes? Contact us at emeraldcoastinterviewconsulting.com with your ideas and inputs. We look forward to hearing from you.
