Transcript
Speaker: We're not. taught. to notice the small ones. And so we have to learn to notice how does your nervous system signal you that you have been on the receiving end of a rupture? How how does your nervous system tell you that?
Speaker: Right. It's going to give you a signal. it It may take you out of that state of ventral regulation and move you into a bit of sympathetic. fight flight or it may move you down to that dorsal collapse right or it may send you a signal while you're still
Speaker: in ventral but it's sending you a signal something just happened that didn't feel right welcome back to wired for connection i'm your host my name is travis goodman and today i'm joined by deb dana who's a clinician a consultant and an author known for making polyvagal theory practical and accessible in this episode we explore rupture and repair through a polyvagal lens today we talk about what happens in the nervous system when connection breaks down
Speaker: why repair can feel difficult, and finally, how we can begin creating enough safety to reconnect. Deb offers a compassionate framework for understanding conflict disconnection, and the small moments that help create and build. Trust.
Speaker: So let's get into it. Deb, first and foremost, I am... I'm excited to have you back on the podcast again, and and it's always fun to have you. and i know that um It's... it's Uh,
Speaker: Not enough to say that you're a fan favorite I would say of of everyone that does polyvagal theory in the Polyvagal Institute You are well loved and cherished in the community and have done so much work. And so first, I just want to thank you for coming back on and and just.
Speaker: just being with me today and us. but Having a good time. We had such a good time the first time. It's kind of fun to be invited back. So thank you. yeah and Yeah. I'm glad we had fun the first time. I'm glad that it was enough that your nervous system felt okay to come back with me again. So I guess that's saying something. um And today the topic... is This.
Speaker: I think really important topic. One that. We all. Navigate At least once in our life. Um, within relationships, and that is this topic around...
Speaker: Rupture. and repair. within relationships. yeah um And with the lens of that is around how polyvagal. Theory.
Speaker: How does that... And frame that with interruption repair. How do we see that? So I'd love just to jump right in. and I'm going to invite you to think, because you said we... experience that at least once in our relationships We experience.
Speaker: Many ruptures all the time. We may experience a big rupture. Most of us have had a big rupture of some some kind, which may still be unrepaired.
Speaker: I will say for many of us, we have ruptures that have not yet been repaired and and we suffer in certain ways around that. But the the small ones. are where we want to build our practice so that we can notice.
Speaker: and name the rupture and then practice making those small repairs and that actually strengthens a relationship. Right. The relationship that is always.
Speaker: this I don't know with the word for this, but always just, you know. feeling that that equilibrium. I'm not sure that they're I don't think I've ever had one of those relationships. is's always ah There's always ah some sort of... um point of of disagreement and coming back. And I think that strengthens relationships, right? The the research around parenting has has shown that. that
Speaker: Although we don't want our kids to to suffer these big, you know. traumatic experiences, the small challenges. they experienced and the ruptures that happened. build their nervous system capacity for resilience and strengthen the relationships.
Speaker: Right. So and just to say one more thing about ruptures and repairs and. Kids and I extrapolate that to to my work with couples or work with, you know, with adults. Edtronic's work about...
Speaker: that you know you only need to be in that attuned space about 30 % of the time. Right. It's the other 70 percent of the time that you have to notice and do something with. That's ah the repair it takes. place And then you build secure attachment in kids. We build these trusting relationships in our adult relationships. I find that.
Speaker: Lovely. to know because I can do it. One out of three times. Can you? Right? One out of three. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm very grateful for the...
Speaker: It's not a great, it'd be failing. in school. I mean, I would not have gotten through grad school with that pass rate, 30%. I would be like, you are done. so so So I'm very good at nervous systems.
Speaker: they're They're just wanting, they're wanting the, the, the repair afterwards. Right. And the problem I think for many of us is that we can't recognize the, the rupture. You know, it just kind of goes and we don't so we don't stop and and notice it and then say, oh, I've got to make a repair. So, yeah yeah. Well, two things. First, I was being facetious, obviously, at the beginning of my talk. We at least had one, and that was...
Speaker: yeah that was a little tongue -in -cheek there um Because the reality is, no, we have many, many. And that's just part of relationships. And you know the Gottmans have... plethora of research on this 50 years of research in couples dr sue johnson's work i mean you know, have Just to name of some of the big hitters that most people...
Speaker: have heard of by now, um, talk about that healthy conflict and we need conflict and without conflict or we, you know, there's when someone has an absence of conflict, actually there's that our radars go up. It's like, well, really, or are we just avoiding it? Um, so I want to say yes. And some rups have been massive to your point. massive ruptures without repair.
Speaker: yeah and that's a common thing i've seen as a clinician as ah and as a trauma coach and as a licensed therapist and i'm sure you've seen many of those that like well we just fought and no one said anything and you know there was all this no one named it we just kind of kept going and right um and we don't even think about the small ones we tend to think of the big ones like well
Speaker: you know i never had a classic whenever i never had a i was never abused quote unquote um you hear that and no i'm not negating that like But I think what happens is we tend to... As people, we will categorize certain things or ruptures.
Speaker: usually the big ones. And then we don't think about those. maybe smaller. So I'm wondering if you could speak a bit more, because you kind of even hinted at that. that things just kind of we just kind of move past it we don't think about it so can you maybe share a bit about why we might do that and Please. Yeah, it's it's interesting because the...
Speaker: We... We're not. taught. to notice the small ones.
Speaker: And so we have to learn to notice how does your nervous system signal you that you have been on the receiving end of a rupture? How how does your nervous system tell you that? Right. It's going to give you a signal. it It may take you out of that state of ventral regulation and move you into a bit of sympathetic. fight, flight, or it may move you down to that dorsal collapse, right? Or it may send you a signal while you're still in ventral, but it's sending you a signal. Something just happened that didn't feel right.
Speaker: Right. So there's no one state that's going to send it to you. But each of us has to begin to to notice o what happens. So for me, I notice I get a feeling right here.
Speaker: That's probably why I'm doing this. I get a feeling right here. Something happens. and And that's like this sign to wait a minute, pay attention. Right. So that's on the receiving end. But we also have to get clear about how do we know that we have caused a rupture?
Speaker: And it may be a different nervous system signal to you than the receiving.
Speaker: For me, when when I've... caused a rupture i i this is a sort of a this and when i cause a rupture it's more of a of a this it's more of a startle that happens for me and i go oh wait a minute can can we back up let me try that again right when i get that signal i know i need to i need to do something because i've just you know. caused a rupture. So we've got both ends, the receiving and and the causing, and we need to get clear about how we how we know those.
Speaker: so that we can stop. and and name them. Right. Whether it's naming the the oh, you know, it feels like what I just said or what I just did or how I just moved or whatever it is, um you know, caused a rupture in our connection. And I wanted to check that out. Right. i Because sometimes.
Speaker: I feel like it has, but it the other person says, oh, I didn't receive that, right? So I want to check it out, right? Not not assume, but say, you know. What happened on your end? Right. We want to check that out. When I receive it, if the other person doesn't name it, I'm going to name it and say, oh, when you whatever, when your voice was like that or, you know, it felt like a lot of.
Speaker: sympathetic energy coming at me and my system, and I'm going to name what happened in my system. Because I want to keep it in the nervous system language. you know not Well, when you said that.
Speaker: you know. Bye. Thought this that that's a this, that's a cognitive experience. I want to talk nervous system. So my nervous system just felt. um Some anxiety.
Speaker: come up. when your voice raised. right Those are the ways we want to be able to. you know, talk in a polyvagal way about the the normal ruptures that happen.
Speaker: Right. So we have to. We have to notice it. We have to name it. that That's the first. If it's unnoticed and unnamed, we can't repair. Yeah, well, can we slow let's slow down there for a moment. I think that's a lot, my experience. Yeah.
Speaker: Um, A couple assumptions I'm making in my head. with this is that I Bye. we'll first totally agree that we need to notice the name and get there and be able to kind of Check. and assess.
Speaker: Because I'm already making an assumption about the meaning behind. this person's behavior or even my behavior. And so I think that's an issue where a lot of people get stuck is they're stuck in that.
Speaker: assuming phase. So can you... You're nodding. So can you speak a little bit about that? Because I think there's something important there to access. Let me ah let me actually check. I think it requires a bit more. of ourselves and ventral energy to actually check But I think people who were there, they're kind of stuck at an assuming place.
Speaker: Yeah, when we're rolling. Make an assumption and and we all... Make assumptions. So we have to. you know, remember, oh. Oh, yeah. I'm. Let let me stop a minute. let Let me come back to this and try again, right? what but We can't.
Speaker: Be curious about a rupture. Curiosity is an emergent property of ventral, right? So you can't be curious about a rupture unless you have at least a foothold in ventral. You don't have to be fully immersed, but you need... I had a colleague that once talked about a critical mass.
Speaker: of something we need a critical mass of ventral in order to be able to to you know find that curiosity and, and check out what just happened and have, you know, I'm going to talk for a minute about courage.
Speaker: Have the courage. to put it into words. And courage is another. emergent property of ventral. Right. So so yeah we we always come back to fentanyl in the polyvagal world, don't we? Fentanyl is the essential ingredient for any of these things. And so if I'm feeling a neuroception of danger.
Speaker: you know I might notice and name something for myself, but I'm not going to feel safe enough to say it to you. All right. right So I might notice and name it but for myself, but not.
Speaker: name it with you, and then it remains. unnamed between us but that's because my system might feel It's not safe to do that. Right? And.
Speaker: You can't make a repair. from a survival state. Right. So again, we have to find a way to come to enough ventral, both of us, so that we can engage in that that repair. If I've caused the rupture and I can find my way to ventral, I can then begin to...
Speaker: invite you into. my experience of of offering. a repair and your system may be able to come in to feel my welcome, feel my my my ventral energy and come to ventral too. So the person offering has got to be.
Speaker: ventro The person receiving might find their way there, or maybe not. If they stay stuck in survival, the repair can't happen. Yeah, I mean, and this is... there's a lot i mean a lot happening in the sense it requires two and you know, two nervous systems. and yeah To one degree, I can't.
Speaker: Control. Like if it's me and my spouse, I can't control my spouse's nervous system. I can become aware of it, be curious about it. Yep. I could even have an impact on it to a degree. But I'm still got to be aware of myself.
Speaker: and And they too. Have to do some work enough. to be able to receive it. Like you said, and I think it's important to... to That you differentiate between what I'm receiving versus if I'm receiving the rupture or causing the rupture. um the the similarities and yet differences. yeah um But then the repair is huge, and I and i think...
Speaker: You are so right. um in the A lot of us don't have a... effective Blueprint. Hmm. to do that now we have a blueprint i think everyone has a blueprint The question is, is it effective or is it really keeping us stuck in more survival states? And I tend to see when people first come to see me, it's more of that survival blueprint of.
Speaker: We'll even name it maybe that appeasement or fawning or dorsal shutdown or. try and fix and be perfect and so Hmm. is that kind of what you're seeing too initially? Cause the gig and get to repair is like, we first have to notice that I'm stuck in that.
Speaker: mm -hmm survival state. And if I don't have a blueprint, how do I get a blueprint? Right. And blueprint's an interesting word because we will have sort of a a general blueprint, but then every nervous system is going to need something different for repair. that's the both the beauty of it and the and the challenge of it.
Speaker: Right. And, you know, I may know you well enough to know oh your nervous system usually wants language as repair. And yet. Today, that's not what your nervous system wants.
Speaker: Right. So it's that beautiful sort of let's you know ask the question, what does your nervous system need to feel that we can find our way back into connection?
Speaker: All right. yeah Here's a good one. I mean, did you ask the question? I mean, a little preview of the September thing happening is. Okay, let's say I'm the client. what do you I don't know what I need. Yeah. What do you mean? So then we're going to play with it.
Speaker: You know, because we can say, so I can use language. I can use action. I can use behavior. Hmm. There are lots of different ways to offer a repair, and we can see how they land in your system.
Speaker: Right. Because for for some people, when I was working with with couples, that sometimes there was a certain word. that one of the partners needed to hear.
Speaker: And that's all it was. And when they when they could tell their partner, this is what I need you to say. you know and you'd say oh i don't want to be told what to say well yes you do because your your partner is saying this is exactly the language i need my nervous system is longing for this can you say that Yes. And there you go.
Speaker: Right. Nervous systems will often tell us what they need if we can be curious with a person and their nervous system. Right. Yeah. And it's like the key. They're giving you the keys, I would say, when I've done couples work. It's like, this is the key. I know for you it may not make logical sense. But for your spouse...
Speaker: Right? they're they're give They're handing you the key. like do the hug like I need a hug. yeah I know my wife says. I just need a hug and just tell me it's going to be okay.
Speaker: Right. So I'm like... Yeah. Okay. And even with the keys. I'll just say, admit, sometimes I don't do that. and yeah i'm like Oh, the key. I left the key over there. Exactly. I got to remind myself. um And sometimes we say what we don't need.
Speaker: Right? Totally. no I do not want this. This will just push me further into. sympathetic or dorsal, right? so yeah And again, this is the curiosity we do. And if we're in partnered relationships or or you know have family you know relationships with parents, kids, or whatever it is, colleagues.
Speaker: are great places to do this to really sit down and brainstorm with each other. and And get a list. Yeah. because You're right. you've You've got the key. I can tell you exactly what I need.
Speaker: And then I am trusting that you will do it. there There's that that sense of of trust too that has to happen again. I can't trust you unless I trust that you can be responsible for your nervous system.
Speaker: when and i When I hear that, too, I think of... you know a client. um who Where there is no trust in relationships where maybe and I've heard this quite often with like kind of complex PTSD or chronic.
Speaker: stress, you know within relationships where There is no trust. In fact, trust, if anything, led to more pain, suffering, hurt. And so their nervous system is like not essentially not doing that again. Why would I trust? Trusting essentially was the doorway to more pain. right And now you're asking me to trust? like yeah it's almost the alarm bells are going off because that was the signal Absolutely. and And, you know, I find myself saying to people often that makes perfect sense.
Speaker: makes perfect sense you of course your nervous system is going to do that and that's where the the Yeah. therapist client relationship comes in. because I am a trustworthy, predictably regulated human that we're going to play around with this.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm i'm not going to expect you to to do this with your partner. who is not. predictably regulated. or we're going to do it together. in tiny little bits together.
Speaker: the three of us right that's a beautiful way to to do that to to sort of you know, play around with, let's do a tiny little bit, take something little. Not the great big thing.
Speaker: i Take something little and let's see what it might feel like. to move into a repair. Right. you know. Yeah. yeah And that's sometimes... You need some persistence. Yeah, and that that work sometimes can take a long time. sometimes.
Speaker: yeah Well, you know, the nervous system. um Keeps testing us. I think, you know, we we see that we think things are going along and then all of a sudden there's this this this we're back there again. It's just a nervous system checking out, you know, is. Can I really trust this?
Speaker: Right. And if I can look at another nervous system and say, oh, it's just checking out. you know Am I still going to be? you know a trustworthy, a regulated being.
Speaker: That's all it's doing. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think of, too, something you said. years ago. And I think you still say this, but I remember in a training. it took from you a long time ago uh was this piece of Within this, and this is sometimes the work, is that our...
Speaker: I think our nervous systems, again, if we think of the nervous system, and please correct me if I'm wrong from your understanding, but how I see it is... If I've been... if my primary hurt is in the relationship and broken trust within non repaired ruptures. Um,
Speaker: And now I'm in a relationship. where I'm... similar ruptures but i don't my repair there is no repair and if anything If I trust, I get more hurt. And so I either just numb out or check out or go to my, let's say that's that's my. Let's say that's my adaptive.
Speaker: nervous system response is to go to dorsal shutdown, just kind of wait for the, you know. the thing to blow over. um that anytime I sense something similar, that same tone of voice or that sound of the footsteps or that facial expression, I already have the predictive text. My nervous system is saying, oh, hey, that's a threat signal, right? Which we know that's a that's a signal of threat.
Speaker: um which is that adaptive response going back to, let's say, early childhood, adolescence, which helped me navigate. the pain in my family. um Now I'm seeing my partner do the very same thing or something similar to. And so it's like I'm already here. I'm already protecting myself.
Speaker: Um, And this is where the work is, is that The question you posed was we got... Their initial response, we got the neuroception, interoception, and then discernment, right? is is this nervous system state Is this a match? for the actual context, or is this like this old?
Speaker: Predictive text mapping. Right. Right? Yeah, yeah that the discernment question is easy to... to use. it's It's not so easy to use in the moment because we're flooded by the hues, but we can reflect back. In that moment, in that place, with that person, was my response needed?
Speaker: That's the the discernment question. And then we can begin to figure out, you know, Oh, maybe, it maybe it wasn't needed. But if does it feel familiar? Yes, it feels familiar. And then that begins to take us into the discovering all of the times it helped us survive.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the other thing to do in, you know, when we're And usually... When we have a system that is so um sensitive to certain cues, it's going to take us way back into our... you know home away from home i call it that adaptive survival response immediately um Someone can help us.
Speaker: Therapist. you know coach friend someone. And we do that safety danger equation. And we go back to that moment and we say, what were the cues of danger? Concretely, specifically, tone of voice.
Speaker: where they moved. proximity. Sound out there, whatever it is, right? Write them all down. These are the cues of danger because they're familiar from my past and they came alive in the present. The other side of this equation is what are the cues of safety that were there?
Speaker: But you missed because your system was. helping to keep you. alive by moving you into survival. And we look for the cues of safety. then How might we?
Speaker: look at the cues of danger differently? How might we reduce the impact they have? How might we? find some more cues of safety or be able to hold on to the cues of safety. That begins to change the equation.
Speaker: So that the nervous system can give you a little bit of space, perhaps to discern or perhaps to not simply go down that old survival pathway. And while we're doing that, we want...
Speaker: the people around us. to know these cues of danger and safety as well. Yeah. right Because you probably have your cues and your wife may not have any idea what they are.
Speaker: Sure. Maybe she does by now because you've had the conversations. But in the beginning, she's going to look at you like, what was that? Oh, yeah. I would have people all the time say, he he yelled at me. And and the the of the partner where would say.
Speaker: I know. And really, you know, it' it's a matter of that system identifies a bit more energy behind a voice as dangerous yelling and the other system is like.
Speaker: it didn't make sense. So, you know, it's getting on the same page by talking about how nervous systems are receiving these cues. Yeah. Well, and that's that trust. That's that... enough ventral like a foot in ventral enough with enough curiosity to then ask those questions and yeah my thankfully my wife and i you know we've It'll be 16 years this year we've been we've been married. and Um,
Speaker: that's actually in a week So that's exciting. Yeah. um And we have we thankfully, we've learned a bit. and um I've learned. how I sometimes deal with my own stress.
Speaker: I'll think. I'll go quiet to think. Mm -hmm. But I also learned that when I do that... in the past would put her into... her own distress because I'm not responding. and Feels like a rupture to her. Feels like a rupture, but we've thankfully talked. It's like here.
Speaker: i need to i need to tell you more what's going on so i've learned to Great. Um, share my inner my inner monologue with her but okay here's where I'm at just because I know that she needs more of that because I'm actually because I want her to know that I'm with her yeah So thankfully I've learned that along the way just to say it. um But still, but it takes those it takes conflict. And I think that's the important thing here was.
Speaker: Rupture and repair is vitally important to actually growing closer. Yes. Yes. Yeah. You know, there's this sort of clarification process that we... you know use was. with clients when There's been something that happened and we have to find our way back in. And, you know, the clarification is here's what I know I did.
Speaker: Hmm. right and here's here's what happened in my nervous system. Here's what I'm. you know doing to make sure that I... Don't do that again or do it differently.
Speaker: Right. Here's how I know or here's how I think it may have hurt you. There are all those areas that we want to begin to be able to to talk about. And a repair is not, you know, I did this, but.
Speaker: Right. If you put a butt at the end of it, that's that's no longer a repair. Right. It's simply sitting in the. Here's what I know. And here's here's how i I think it may have hurt you.
Speaker: So, yeah, but not not doing the. excuses or the, you know. any of that because that then That doesn't feel like a repair, right? Mm -hmm.
Speaker: Yeah. And I know people are thinking with rupture and repair that. It does require... both parties at least at one point, being willing to repair and have enough awareness to grow.
Speaker: Because you know if we just have ruptures... And. Ruptures without repair over time. or one person is willing to repair and and own it and the other... for whatever reason you know there's always layers we can't get into all of them but Let's just say a nervous system is stuck, I would say, to keep it simple. Someone who's just really stuck in their own survival mechanisms.
Speaker: for whatever reason and unable to for whatever reason move beyond that, you know that over time, that... yeah you're You're not repairing it. Right. And you we talk about this in. in relationships. we talk about what happens when the person on the other end is is unable.
Speaker: Right. work with their own system. yet Yeah. Right. And. I would help a lot of clients. so I would call it downsizing a relationship. right because you know it
Speaker: you are offering and there there's no ability on the other end it's not that they don't want to but they are unable they are too dysregulated and haven't found their way to feeling safe enough to go to therapy or work with it or whatever and so the best thing to do right now is to downsize the relationship and figure out how do you how do you keep your own system.
Speaker: nourished and you know Keep whatever kind of connection you need to have with that person. Happens all the time. Right. Well, let me, and because it is so frequent. or quite frequent. Just for the sake of a quick...
Speaker: short case study. what you would do. with a couple like this because i i would you can only imagine people listening to this that At least one of them is probably in this state, and I've heard this many times in my practice. but Think of a typical married couple.
Speaker: where one person is willing to repair and own. and the other person is unable. And I love that you said that because I say the same thing. This person doesn't have a capacity right now, but there's still attacks. Like it's hard. And so. When you say...
Speaker: Um, What was the word you said? Not downgrade. i Downsides. So in that, like what are a few... what typically you've tended to share with people? I know it's unique per person, but generally speaking, what are a few things that would look like to help that?
Speaker: person in the relationship to help the other partner to downsize. I mean, you know, it's it's difficult when you are in. um You're still living together. You're still in that.
Speaker: place Much easier when it's an extended family member who you're going to have less contact with, right? Right. if it's Partners who are together, the partner who is... still really struggling with a dysregulated system and can't find their way yet to regulation. We're going to name that. with the partner who can so that that. that one can can look and say, oh, right, too dysregulated.
Speaker: Not that they don't love me, not that they don't care. Any of those stories, our brain makes up. They are too dysregulated to engage in this right now. And then I think we help the the partner who is.
Speaker: more regulated. Find what they need. What does your nervous system need to be nourished? in other places Right? until the one who is dysregulated is able to come back and and do some of that work. I did a lot of work with with couples, with and I would take one partner and my colleague would take the other, and then we would...
Speaker: come together. We did individual and then couples together. And we became known as the the duo who helped people come to graceful endings. Because there are times when.
Speaker: It is not going to work, at least not in the foreseeable future, because the systems are just too much of a mismatch and it can't go together. And that's sometime. if can can you Can you have a graceful ending? Can you have an ending that's respectful of the nervous systems rather than the... the you know Um,
Speaker: the endings that are so filled with anger. right And sometimes that's what we're working towards. Yeah, and sometimes people don't know that. you know um or unable to and i think that that's a hard decision i know for a lot of couples is like well oof, I don't want that for all the different stories we tell ourselves. we like I can't do that. I can't have a divorce or that's bad or, you know, whatever the the story is. And so then I'll just stay in it and I'll keep.
Speaker: you know. but eventually nervous systems have a capacity like we all do ah at some point there's And it's not my job. or anyone's job. other than the person to decide okay what am i willing to do and what can i do in capacity and what do i not have capacity for especially eventually like if it's just ruptsture ruptstureuppts oruppts oruppts orupts or rupture rupture that's a lot on a nervous system um even if you are grounded that's that's a lot of stress because that's pain that's right
Speaker: In a way, there's no co -regulation. I mean, well, it's one way, but it's... There's the safety, even if the person's really grounded. You know, I like to think of co -disregulation. We do that a lot. Yeah, co -disregulation. You know, Steve once said... um trauma is a chronic disruption of connection. That's his beautiful quote, right? And think about that in a relationship where there's just constant rupture without the capacity for repair and how trauma.
Speaker: you know filled that is on a nervous system level For both. parties. Right. Yeah. Yeah. man It's huge. Yeah. Um,
Speaker: you know And I know that... Because I had people listening. It's like that that is where some people are. And I know everyone's got to decide. And this is why, you know. Even with this question, I know that I might get a specific answer because I would do the same thing. Well, generally, I would say this, but...
Speaker: because everyone has a different capacity. Everyone has a different level. and you know to to to to navigate and everyone's got a different I don't want to say timeline, but point at which, okay, I think.
Speaker: Let's see. I just can't do anymore. I just I'm unable to like at this point and that, you know, that ranges. But it's good in name that I think it does come a time if for whatever reason, one person is still stuck and unable to and not get out and grow capacity that I could understandably so make sense why.
Speaker: then Now what? Amen. And you're in. Your nervous system, if you were the one who is... you know, keeping to, you're offering repair, repair, repair. and The other side is not able.
Speaker: to receive or offer repair in their turn. So reciprocity, there's no reciprocity in the relationship anymore, right? Because reciprocity leans in one direction and then leans the other, right? I mean, it's it's not a...
Speaker: I offer, you receive, you offer. It's not that one -on -one thing. It leans one way or another. But if it has been leaning so that I am the one who has been offering for. you know Whatever the period of time is that my nervous system says, I can't do this anymore because Now I can't find my way.
Speaker: to ventral and to hold on to ventral that's how you know when you know that your system has now taken you to sympathetic or dorsal and you're stuck in that loop of your own, your system is telling you clearly something has to change.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I like that something has to change. like this is This is not sustainable. Hmm. um for either of you, for the system. still you know The system, your individual system and the shared system. is yeah If it keeps going, this is just...
Speaker: You'll get physically. ill. yeah You'll get psychologically distressed. The suffering will just continue. yeah yeah yeah and that's that's hard Um, yeah I think a lot of us don't as don't think that way.
Speaker: you know we don't see it that way at least couples it's like well no i keep going i'm like well you know. why do you think you're stressing out losing your stuff at work or irritable or you might you know why are you drinking more you know why are you doing all those other things yeah we look at the symptoms right the symptoms are the nervous system trying to tell us something yeah that's all And what's it trying to say? What's it trying to say to us? Right. Yeah.
Speaker: yeah And that reciprocity is huge because it does require that. and I know you've talked about rupture repair and reciprocity. Yeah. Reciprocity is in all relationships is so important. Right. And, you know, in the beginning of your work with couples, you probably find this that one of the partners says, why is it always me that has to do that?
Speaker: offering. right And I said, well, because in this moment, your system is more capable of finding regulation. Right. So your partner system is unable. So you're the one that's going to be offering the, so reciprocity is going to lean in that direction. When your partner system is more able to find regulation, that's what we're working on. And when that happens, then reciprocity can lean back the other way and you can receive.
Speaker: It's not that that I want you to be the one that... that carrying the load, but your nervous system is more able in this moment. And if if you put it again, back to biology.
Speaker: and get out of all the stories. right that that we make up. It's biology. It's simply your nervous system is more or less capable in this moment of doing this work. Yeah. yeah And I think that's some of the initially early on. and well and depending on the couple, sometimes for a while.
Speaker: or the individual is shifting from how strong those stories are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, you know, the story... you and you know, that each of our states brings its own set of stories, right? So when I'm in that sympathetic, you know, fight flight.
Speaker: i And if I'm intensely in it, I have a very intense story. about. myself, about the world, and about others. sure So, you know, that story can just take over. My dorsal story can be equally as intense and very different.
Speaker: Right. So I have to, again, I have to come to ventral and to be able to to hear the beginnings of that ventral story. which brings a bit of hope. oh, my partner is going to be able sometime in the future.
Speaker: Right. Right. that Maybe that's the the the tiny bit of hope in the ventral story. Whereas the sympathetic story is that the driven need it now and the and the dorsal is that it's never going to happen.
Speaker: Right? Yeah. so So, yeah, we're we're playing with the stories, too, that that each state... brings. and And if we can find a ah toehold and ventral again, we get the beginnings of that story of possibility. Thank you everybody.
Speaker: Yeah. and And I think seeding that. with. um The one who... has the higher level of reciprocity to begin that phase that hey you have a nervous system that has more capacity more access. yeah yeah Almost better, ah you're better able to find like the true north in a way. yeah more readily And it's not a good or bad thing. it's like We're not going to moralize it, but it's just where you are right now. And your partners, they're more stuck in the spiral. Right. you know, i you know i
Speaker: I just saw The Odyssey. Yeah. And. I'm not going to spoil it for people, but go see it. um But there's been many stories written like that about you know finding our way back. And I think there's so many stories that have been written by philosophers over the past few thousand years about...
Speaker: What keeps us moving forward? And some nervous systems will get more stuck. You know, I think of like. You know, they go through all these different phases and the sirens and the the giants and, you know, the the whole the the way home. um And now some people do go to the sirens, you know, they get stuck because their nervous system is like, that's more familiar or they get stuck by the giants versus some people who are like, I know.
Speaker: I can find my way north. It's a little easier for me right now. Hard, not, I don't even need the word easy. I have more capacity to like weather this storm, even though it's difficult, and keep my focus because I have that.
Speaker: where other people fall and not that that's bad. which i love about polyvagal theory it's not that they're broken or bad or wrong it's like oh they're just stuck and this is their home away from home and what how they've navigated it.
Speaker: And obviously I'm completely shifting the analogy here from the book and the movie, but um it's made me think of that, the journey home. um and And that journey home, when we when we make that trip home.
Speaker: from small dysregulations over and over, the the path becomes... easier for us to travel. Right, it's it's like paving that way. You know, where initially maybe the road is, I don't know, it just looks like a mess. I can't see. But over time, it's like it becomes a clear path through the forest. And maybe eventually we lay down cobblestones and make a really clear path, you know. But over time, it's that repetition.
Speaker: Yes. um And for some people, they've never had... a healthy blueprint of real repair and so it's almost like completely what do you mean it's like foreign where some people have had it oh I remember my dad saying this or my coach or they had some glimpse of it some like mapping and others are like What do you mean? Like that's, there's zero path. What do you mean? What path? I see this path. Right. Right. No one has ever. Fill in the blank.
Speaker: No one has ever said, I'm sorry, or ever cared or ever. Yeah. Yeah. Or when they did, they came with this. Right. Right. It was with the butt. It was like. but yeah It was with but, like it was this, big thing so it really wasn't. No, um yeah. And in in in our work with with clients, we get lots of opportunity to to make repair because we have these tiny ruptures that happen all the time.
Speaker: Right. I mean, really, if you think about it, there's there's at this moment when when. I was. doing a um webinar.
Speaker: the other day and I turned to grab a book. from over there and came back and i came back and said oh i'm going to do that again i'm going to turn and grab this book because i want to use because if you just turn away and come back it's a the nervous system feels what just happened right we do these little things all the time in In our work with with clients, right? We have these moments when we we get distraction.
Speaker: Or we look away and um and... A client feels like we've abandoned them. right We have moments. to notice the rupture and make a repair. So we can we can give sort of the the blueprint in these tiny moments.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. yeah And that's important. And sometimes for some people, and I think those listening. Sometimes it's... Quick. Amen.
Speaker: and and people for whatever again for whatever reason it's like it just clicks and then Mm -hmm. They move. other times it it could take It could take years sometimes. of of of healing and so i think sometimes in our society i do find this like well you know this this timetable which i think is also a nervous system protector yes well it's been a week and a week I've done, I've done over and over. what yeah Why aren't you – yeah, I know. Which from a nervous perspective is like –
Speaker: They're trying to keep them safe. it's like so okay you're done you're done your week go back to like protection mode and you know and when you finally come to the repair you find out that the process repair is a process it's not an event right things Oh, I love that. you come you When you finish the process, you discover that was what was needed. It was the process that was needed. It wasn't the the saying, I'm sorry, or the thing. I had a client that I had a a huge rupture with.
Speaker: All of my own making, my own fault, absolutely. It took me six months. every single week. before we got to a repair, and afterwards my client said, no one has ever stuck with me.
Speaker: Right. That was. That was what was needed. so Yeah. But I will tell you on my end, it was painful week after week after week. And so if you're in that kind of a process, you then need to find someone who's going to support you.
Speaker: I would go into my colleague's office and I would bang my head on the wall and they'd say, still, I say, still. And it was, but I just needed somebody to. you know. be in it with me. So yeah. Co -regulation at its finest. You need it too. It's like, gosh, that fills me up. yeah exactly I relate to that. and I think what a, what a, I mean, um first. What an amazing What um amazing that both of you stuck with it. Yeah.
Speaker: Because at any moment you... both one of you could have said, I'm done. and Yeah. We're, we're forget it, not worth it. Cause that's, that's arduous. That's a journey. That's not a one in one talk about it where, you know, okay, that's a, do I keep coming? Do I keep showing up? yeah Yeah.
Speaker: This is a lot. But. I mean, I. Talk about. It is not an event. No, not an event. Yeah. It's a process. it's a It's a journey. It's a process. And sometimes the journeys are arduous and it's the consistency of showing up. It's so powerful that she's like, no one ever stuck with me.
Speaker: Yeah. And maybe... I don't know. I've had a client once, I think of a couple of clients that have had. and that where it's like almost like they're test... Part of the nervous system is testing if you'll stick around. Yeah. waiting for the shoe to drop because like eventually people leave right and right so it's almost like yeah they're doing that test because they're gonna leave or he's gonna say something that's gonna hurt and just wait, just wait, just wait. Yeah. um
Speaker: So when you don't, when you when you stay and you keep coming back, that's what I call the disconfirming autonomic experience. Right. That's what's happening for the other nervous system. Autonomic experience. Yeah. Because the nervous system, that nervous system expects you to leave, expects you to to get angry or whatever and leave. And you are not doing that. And so that disconfirms that experience, which is lovely. yeah
Speaker: that is That is a wonderful phrase, disconfirming autonomic experience. I like. Oh, man, that hits. I love that. That's a great way to frame it, Deb. And and so true. and And sometimes it takes a while for that.
Speaker: to sink in of like hold on they're not doing the thing that I've had to prevent and protect from my whole life. Exactly. Or my partner is not doing the thing yeah that everyone else has done my whole life. exactly um And I love to see when that happens, when there's that. ah capacity to heal and to really where that wound is no longer this wound but it's like mm -hmm I now have a new map. I have a road. home Mm -hmm.
Speaker: of safe connection which is really what my whole nervous system is longing for yes my whole life. Absolutely. um And I think every nervous system has that ability.
Speaker: I think so too he just I really do believe that I tell that to to clients. It just may be that that nervous system. Can't do it yet. Can't do it in this moment.
Speaker: We may get to it later. right I think the capacity is built into us all, but but we have our own. timetables for it Yeah, no, it reminds me of... um Marsha Linehan's work with Dialectical Behavioral Therapy that she said that we all have a capacity for inner wisdom.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. But we we may not always be able to access it. Yeah. um And that's hard too, I think, as... you from ah from as a clinician side and coach side, but also... you know being in relationship with people is that we all Like...
Speaker: Um... Sometimes we... to your point with you and your um fellow therapists where you became the the helpful partnership to help them with What'd you say? a Graceful endings. A graceful ending. And sometimes it is.
Speaker: part of the journey of sometimes it does need to end. Sometimes that is the most safest, effective, healthy thing in the moment. When this is no longer able... or whatever, there's...
Speaker: Um, Just to say, okay. This is the best step for us. And right now we don't have the capacity to access wisdom or. ventral Yeah. And yet we've got to care for one another. How do we do that lovingly, respectfully, gracefully? And especially when you have to co -parent.
Speaker: That's what we're really looking for. how do we How do we repair enough so that we can co -parent effectively and and caringly? Yeah. especially when yeah especially when there's kids involved you're right i think that's another layer to this because their little nervous systems are picking up on Yes. All of this. There were sponges. And I have three kids of my own. and
Speaker: Yeah, you they pick up everything. and you you are You are responsible for the energy in the in the in the room. You are the co -regulators. And that's a lot that's a lot to to carry, right?
Speaker: It is a lot to carry. yeah um and And especially if I don't have a blueprint. Yes. yeah Now, I have seen people without blueprints, by the way, and this is just to find a fun wrench in the whole system. that do an amazing just are able to like hey i had this was my life and i am Not doing that. And they really just change it. like They have a new blueprint. they've've They're saying, ah I'm throwing that blueprint out. and i'm and i'm just not There's a, i mean there's ah in one of my one of my books I wrote about, you know,
Speaker: Think about... In... in my family. And you can fill in that sentence and you begin to to get in my family. You know, these are the patterns. This is what happened. People were encouraged to talk or were discouraged. You know, you can get really get to know what were the.
Speaker: patterns in your family and then you can do and in this family the one that i'm creating now And you can fill in the different sentences. What's important to you? right what What do you want to do?
Speaker: in a new way what what and then I can help you do that. you're You're telling me this is what your system learned, this is what you would like your system to do now. We can we can work with that. so yeah Man. Yeah. we start to kind of wrap up here. I'm wondering if you could, if you could.
Speaker: you know snap your fingers or wake up tomorrow and s Flip a switch. with rupture and repair and reciprocity. what would be one thing? You might have 10, but what's one thing that you would be able to just...
Speaker: Change. Or better for people. Well, I think what I would... do because Again. It can be a very painful process. It can also be a very...
Speaker: nourishing process and it can be simple or it can take a long long time so there's no you know It's all on a continuum there, but I think what would be the the most wonderful would be for people to be taught.
Speaker: how to... Make a repair. how to offer so that we notice what's happening and we take the time. to make the repair even the little things I had somebody tell me if I stopped and made a repair for every time there was a rupture they were in a company that's all I would do all day and I said then that's what you should do That's what you should do until you no longer have to do that. So if people listening can can make an intention.
Speaker: to notice the little ruptures. Start with the little ones, the little ruptures. and then offer a repair. I think we would. end up in a better place. Hmm. hmm I agree with that I think that would be
Speaker: If we can do that, if we if everyone was taught that, that would... change. Yeah. I mean, everything, really. That's where I see most white people come to see me, is because they there's no... Yeah. healthy blueprint of teaching.
Speaker: Right. there has been a blueprint. There's been a model. but it's been one of more dysregulation more survival more disconnection yeah but no way home.
Speaker: right no way back and so it's like it makes sense then why Why would you know how to get back? Why would you do anything different than what you're doing? This makes... going back earlier to what you said is this makes total sense. Why?
Speaker: why you wouldn't trust, why you would do this, why you would protect yourself. because you've Always had to do this. So why would I expect anything different now? But I would love it one day to say.
Speaker: No wonder why you repair. Hmm. but no wonder No wonder why. Like this makes sense why you're a parent because look. I love that. Yes. um yeah I would love to be able to say that one day. I love that. i love of course Of course the home is repairing and reciprocity on both ends. Of course it is. um And I'm hoping with my kids, that's what's going to be normal for them. I'm trying. I'm trying. It's always good, again, that jays they just need 30%.
Speaker: yeah I'm aiming higher. I'm aiming higher than 30%. If I'm honest, Deb. I'm trying to aim higher than 30%, but I also could rest in trust that.
Speaker: It's not about perfection. No. And I heard, it I think I said this by, by I think Tina Bryson one time or Dan CEO. I can't remember who, but it's not, it's about consistency and showing up. Yeah. They don't need perfection.
Speaker: It's about recognizing that every nervous system dysregulates. Yes. And we can find our way back to regulation and make a repair. Oh, man. Yeah. I love that. yeah Well, ah Deb, thank you so much. And I know that those that are going to the conference are looking forward to spending some time with you. um And can you just say one line of what you're doing there? So people have, I know we're not giving away too much, but what is one thing that you're doing at the conference in September? I will be beaming in.
Speaker: virtually, zooming in. I like that. I'm going to zoom in. And I get to do my favorite thing in the world, which is Q and &A. so Whatever has come up for people over the course of the conference, when i when I get to join you, you can ask your questions and we can have a beautiful conversation. So I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker: i yeah i Those listening and watching for the September conference for PVI, you don't want to miss. They could... the... a Time to spend with Deb and hearing other people's questions and maybe you get your questions asked answered as well Deb, thank you so much for today.
Speaker: Blessings to you in all your work. And that you have a wonderful rest of your week. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Wired 4 Connection. a Polyvagal podcast.
Speaker: This show is produced by the Polyvagal Institute, an international nonprofit organization dedicated to creating a safer and more connected world. PVI provides education. resources, and community to those interested in learning more about polyvagal theory and applying polyvagal principles in personal and professional contexts.
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