Transcript
Speaker: This is one of the reasons why I love polyvagal theory because it gives us that framework for understanding which kind of however you want to phrase it, which ladder rung we're at, right? It's used up Dana's language. where Are we in safety? are Are we in fight or flight? Or are we in... Freeze. um And I think...
Speaker: So joy is the thing that we find in safe and connected, in that safe and connected space, but it's also the thing that can bring us there. Today, I'm joined by Mary Catherine McDonald, who goes by MC. She's a research professor, trauma specialist, and author. of unbroken and this book right here the joy reset
Speaker: for nearly two decades she has blended neuroscience psychology and philosophy to better reframe and understand how the trauma response acts as an an adaptive strength today we explore how trauma can teach the nervous system to brace against joy and how we can begin to allow joy safety and connection back in.
Speaker: So MC, I am so glad you are with us here today on Wired for Connection. and ah for For listeners who are new to your work, Can you? short quickly describe what you do and the problem you're trying to solve in this trauma field.
Speaker: Yes. First of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. A huge fan of your work and the podcast. So i'm I'm really glad to talk to you. I think the quickest way to describe what I work is that um I like to come in and sort of smash.
Speaker: the old definitions of things that we think we understand, like trauma and joy, um and rebuild them in a way that makes more sense. That stood out to me so hard. I want to smash the old.
Speaker: ways of thinking, especially around trauma and joy, which is really kind of where we're going today, but in both of those. and I don't know. I think when i when I read some of your work is to reclaim it in a way that's...
Speaker: generative that is more holistic that's maybe more accurate um And so. With your work and in this idea of being kind of... um I'm like in an unbroken that that work you're written you write this idea that the trauma response is never wrong So what does that mean? And why is shame such a major barrier to...
Speaker: our healing oh This is huge. so the So Unbroken was essentially this exact thing, right? Smashing the definition of trauma that we currently have. Not because everyone is wrong in the way that they talk about things, but because if you look at the history of the study of trauma, what you see is that...
Speaker: There is. So much. incorrect. information loaded into that history. And a lot of it is steeped in shame. Right. So in the 1800s, before the 1800s.
Speaker: The prevailing scientific belief was literally that the uterus wandered all over the body, creating the symptoms of what we would now call PTSD. And it was termed hysteria. So it could only happen to women, couldn't happen to men. um And it had a biological root, but a biological root that sounds frankly, like I just made it up on the spot, but I didn't.
Speaker: and Oh, hearing that now, it literally makes it sounds like you just ended up on a floating like uterus that just floats around. like Right. All right, there we go. And men came up with it, I'm sure too. Right, of course. Right, right. And um and then there was also this idea that trauma was unhealable. And so people, you know, through the history of of psychology and psychiatry, people who were suffering from trauma were sort of relegated to the the back halls of the insane asylums.
Speaker: Yeah. and you know treated miserably and and not really helped at all. And so I think when we look at a word like trauma, it's important to look at the history of it. And what I did in Unbroken was try to...
Speaker: you know reframe it as something that that science has caught up with trauma and understands that the trauma response is actually a strength response. It is ah it is a set of responses that are that have evolved to protect us and keep us safe.
Speaker: But instead of looking at it like that, since since the word is sort of haunted by its past, we much more often look at it as something that is a sign of weakness or um instability or something that we should be ashamed of. And so when we have the symptoms...
Speaker: Whether that's a symptom of a stress response just in an isolated moment or a longer term diagnosis of PTSD or something like that, we are our temptation is to feel ashamed of that instead of look at the biology and say, okay, something happened that stressed my biology in such a way that these emergency coping mechanisms kicked into gear. And the super cool thing about that is that the system can be recalibrated. back to a sense of safety. And so if we know all of that cool biology, then we can look at trauma without shame, which makes it just so much more likely that we heal. Yeah, and then and that's what I love about. um Kind of the work that Dr. Porges has done with polyvagal theory is that we look at it from the lens of the nervous system, which does reduce shame. And it's not. Yes. pathological.
Speaker: Um, it's it's hey the wiring and so you know with that with this book you know how How do you see it in changing the way someone might look at?
Speaker: a symptom quote -unquote of like hypervigilance shutdown anxiety numbing like how does that change for them now with this new framework I think you can you can start to think of it almost to use a metaphor, like ah like an indicator light in your car, right? So if if an indicator light goes on in your car that says you need oil or that, you know, they all have these special symbols that you always have to look up what they mean. sure The answer is not to get out of the car and leave it on the highway. The answer is to figure out what the indicator light is indicating and then go in that direction to kind of sort it out. And I think when we understand that the roots of trauma are biological, we can look at the indicator light. we can learn our dashboard in that way and we can look at the indicator light and say okay I'm finding myself really frayed at the edges and that means I'm
Speaker: snapping at my spouse and my children, like that's not something that I need to be ashamed of. That's behavior I want to change, sure. um But let's look at the root. Where is that coming from? Why is that why is that indicator or like coming on? And what does that then suggest that I need to do? Yeah, what I'm hearing is seeding curiosity rather than... know getting stuck in the shame spiral which is often i hear a lot about my office of Men and thats women kidding.
Speaker: that isolation of shame, which is all fear, right? And so it creates that. Lack of curiosity, but self -deprecation and disconnection. and a nervous system that's kind of shot.
Speaker: so to speak. And your most recent book, your most recent work, The Joy Reset, it focuses on how trauma steals. right steals happiness so Why? I'm curious, why does joy become complicated?
Speaker: after trauma. So again, we can root this in the biology. If you think about a trauma response, if you think about somebody who's got even just chronic stress going on or see PTSD or PTSD, your nervous system and therefore your entire body is braced for danger. And so that means what you'll see is a hypervigilance, um an inability to relax.
Speaker: um to put it in Porges' terms, maybe an inability to connect safely or feel safe in your human connections, even with people that you cognitively know are safe. And so this is going to impact.
Speaker: every plane of your life because joy, biologically, sort of asks you and your body to do the opposite, to let down your guard, to revel in something, to connect with someone, um to let go and laugh and, you know, be silly. And so...
Speaker: I think when when our bodies are chronically stressed and or traumatized, we brace against joy. And when you tell someone, okay, but joy is regulating, right? This is kind of what what a lot of the work that comes out of positive psychology. Let's have gratitude. Let's have hope. Let's have joy. If you tell that to someone who is dealing with trauma or chronic stress.
Speaker: that's just you know That's like telling someone who's drowning like that maybe they should try yoga. like It's just not on the horizon of what's possible for them at the moment. And so the book was really about building a bridge. How do we how do we bring joy and gratitude and hope to folks whose bodies are have been calibrated by trauma?
Speaker: Well, and the further that... and and I love that that. that analogy of you know asking someone to do yoga it's like what is in a compute But I'm wondering from your experience. You know that that Asking someone to step into joy, how ah how for some it can feel unsafe.
Speaker: So can you spell maybe a few more points of like what specifically you might think is happening in that moment when you ask them to go to that joy space? when they're kind of in a dysregulated state.
Speaker: Yeah, I have. I mean, I have um many examples. The reason that I wrote the book is because I was really influenced and convinced by the work that was coming out of positive psychology, especially when it was pairing up with the neuroscience and showing that gratitude and joy and hope really do have a regulatory effect on the nervous system. And um so I was trying to kind of deploy these tools with this newfound belief in the neuroscience.
Speaker: to clients who were meeting it with a ton of resistance. And in one of the stories that I tell in the book, um I had a client who was incredibly stuck, really, really having a tough time.
Speaker: Yeah. And feeling nothing good in her life. She didn't feel good about anything or anyone that was happening in her life, her husband, her kids, her job, anything. um And at a certain point I said, you know, I think you're stuck. I want to explain to you these, ah this really cool research because I think we can bring in joy into your life. And I think that will help.
Speaker: And she... paused for about a millisecond. And then she said, I will i will spare you the swears for the podcast, um but they are in the book. She said, are ah you are you kidding?
Speaker: yeah Have you been listening? Hmm. you think I need joy in my life like I you're not we're not talking about the same thing and then she closed her we were on zoom she closed her computer and that was the end of the therapeutic relationship And so...
Speaker: um And that's on me, right? So that that may have been a good tool, but that that was deployed in the wrong way at the wrong moment. And she felt incredibly dismissed and unheard. And that was a huge learning experience for me.
Speaker: Because it was like, okay. So one of the reactions to trying to deploy a joy tool with someone is going to be rage. Right. They're, they're going to have a snap back against that because again, it's asking their nervous system to do everything.
Speaker: That. um that it's been primed to not do, right? To let go and to bring in, to let in these lighter parts of life. um So that's one response. I think there's also a lot of fear.
Speaker: um I always think that... resistance when it comes up. has a message. And so what the resistance is. will tell us something about what we need. And so that's in the book, I talk about six joy thieves because there's And there's probably more, right? There's probably 15 or whatever. But those were the things I was seeing the most commonly in in my practice with people. um And they're based in in fear or shame.
Speaker: or um or hypervigilance embracing. Yeah. yeah i've heard it said um another book i read on shame and i know bernie brown's done a lot of work around shame others She's not the first, but, you know, ah powerful work.
Speaker: um Another book by... ah Kurt Thompson is a psychiatrist. He wrote a book on shame. called The Soul of Shame. and He talked about how... Shame's purpose is to isolate and destroy.
Speaker: to prove disconnection, right? To to keep us. In isolation and in fear. And he talks about how we all have our own personal shame attendant. I always love that analogy. It's like.
Speaker: And knows exactly when and how to deploy. the narrative. that will buy into and believe that narrative. Yeah. Because it's not usually going to smack us in the face. It's very subtle, but subtle enough that it goes into that gut feeling of like, yeah, yeah that's right.
Speaker: I am. broken not enough failure unlovable, no value, worthless. human. which is why this thing happened, whatever this thing is. Right. Or why I don't deserve this thing or why I can't access this thing. but yeah They do. Everyone else does. And I've had this many times. It's just not me.
Speaker: This was such an interesting. conceptualization that i've heard people have how confident they are that Just me is the one. Everyone else is fine, but not. And I'm like, right man, it's it's it's that trap.
Speaker: um Yeah. and And you mentioned the the six. you know, the six ways. Could you? ah for us just kind of quickly walk us through uh in a simple way those those six
Speaker: Yes. So they're organized into buckets. I would love to tell you that the um the way that I wrote the book was that I had the six thieves and then I wrote the chapters and whatever, but the the structure actually came after the fact when I was like, oh, wait a second, there's patterns here. Well, I appreciate that. I love the honesty. It's okay. I mean. Thank you. I also, ah and there's a chapter in the book about this, stopped believing in joy in the middle of a project and almost didn't finish the book. So there's we can talk about that too, if you want. But um they're organized into three buckets, which are resistance, fear, and shame. Peace.
Speaker: Um, And then, so if we work backwards in the shame bucket, we have guilt, which is this idea, you know, I've done something bad, therefore I don't deserve joy. That tends to be a little bit more situational. So this comes up a lot in clients who have had a recent loss um and then maybe something good happens in their life and they feel guilty about leaning into that. ah um the joy or the excitement about the good thing because it feels like a betrayal
Speaker: yeah And then shame, right? If guilt is I've done something bad, shame is I am bad. So that's, I call guilt. A shame is guilt metastasized. It's now spread through the system and tricked you into believing that you are bad and wrong and broken and do not deserve. And just like you just said, if you ask that person, well, would you say that you know this person over here deserves joy? Oh, of course, absolutely.
Speaker: but But not you? No. because I'm bad, right? um And then fear, I think, gets broken into two different ideas. And those are fear conditioning and fear of loss.
Speaker: Those sound really similar, but I can give you a simple example. So fear conditioning. is um when you have something good happening or you're feeling joyful and then something bad happens right on the heels of that.
Speaker: um So think about a child who grows up in ah in a house with an incredibly unstable, unpredictable parent. They're having a great day or a great time. And then all of a sudden, every time they're feeling joy, something interrupts. And then our brains connect joy with badness.
Speaker: and so this is sometimes expressed as like oh I just feel like yeah I would like to celebrate that win, but I feel like the other shoe is going to drop. Yeah. um And that's that fear conditioning. Fear of loss. Brene Brown um talks about this as foreboding joy.
Speaker: Where. If you've been shaped by loss in any area of your life, you brace against that loss. And so that means that the way that you connect with other human beings and celebrate and and experience joy with them is changed by that. And so um anytime you have something good or you feel connected, you immediately fear losing that thing. And so you kind of shut yourself down from that.
Speaker: And then fear or joy resistance is broken down into hypervigilance, which I think we've we've talked a little bit about, just this idea that your system is so braced against danger that letting in joy or even laughing um is something that your system is going to kind of reject. And then the other one there is emotional numbing, which I think happens when you've had an excess of stress and anxiety. And as an adaptation, you sort of turn those down.
Speaker: um or you try to turn those down, but because we don't really... We're not good at selectively numbing emotions. We end up numbing them all. And so that will show up in a client who comes in and says, you know.
Speaker: Things were going well. I'm in this new relationship. I got this promotion. like but nothing lands. Like I don't feel it at all. And that's usually a sign that the... um the emotions have been.
Speaker: numbs. But the thing I think that's the most important about the book and this work is that it's not just about identifying the thieves, it's about outsmarting them. So once we know which thief is operative, then we can just get sneakier than the thief. and we could gamify it a little bit.
Speaker: I like that. Gamify, man, I love that. Outsmarting the thief. um And I'm... ah From all those. Thieves. Which one do you see that...
Speaker: tend to find that people and misunderstand most. Hello. um That's super interesting. I think the fear. category. Fear conditioning and fear loss. And I wonder if it's, I'm just thinking about this right now. um I wonder if it's because typically those experiences happen when we are so young.
Speaker: That they are operating underneath the surface in like so deeply that we don't even connect them. With guilt and shame, it tends to be a little bit easier. to... understand. I think also because it pops up in other places. Like we we don't just feel guilty about joy. We don't just feel shame about joy. We feel it kind of in other spaces.
Speaker: And then the hypervigilance and emotional numbing. I think because the way that trauma is is depicted, right, we we always see the hypervigilant. soldier that's at the center of the movie, right? I think about American sniper, right? Like things like that. um I think we're a little bit, we have a little bit more of a narrative there to understand those. So I think the fear ones are the ones that are.
Speaker: um hardest to kind of understand. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah. I get that it resonates with me too with my experience sitting with many many clients over the years is that yeah it's more subtle more Insidious more.
Speaker: I would say normal, that is to say familiar. Yeah. um So harder maybe to differentiate that. Even even shame too. I mean, shame could be really, I've seen so much of that. so blended Yes.
Speaker: really hard to see anything other than that is the lens in which i view the world right um Yeah, so that's that it. that's um Thanks for answering that because I was like, oh, what which one do you see? And now I would agree with that from just... again what I've seen in my practice. um you know and As we think about...
Speaker: these thieves. in particular to the the realm of the nervous system. um And how that applies. I'm wondering... How do you... Think about joy.
Speaker: in relationship to safety regulation connection. Mm hmm. I mean, I think. and This is one of the reasons why I love polyvagal theory, because it gives us that.
Speaker: framework for understanding which kind of... however you want to phrase it, which ladder rung we're at, right? It's used up Dana's language. Where are we in safety? Are are we in fight or flight or are we in?
Speaker: Freeze. um And I think... So joy is the thing that we find in safe and connected, in that safe and connected space, but it's also the thing that can bring us there.
Speaker: Yeah. And so I think... When we are in the other two spaces, fight, flight, or freeze, shut down.
Speaker: We. this becomes about... bringing in joy in really small doses.
Speaker: And learning how to get the nervous system accustomed to being in the safe and connected space. So if you think about Peter Levine's work, um when he talks about pendulation, it's like you come into joy for a second and then you let yourself come right back out into whatever other state you're in. Or titration, you're giving yourself a daily dose of joy um that's really small to get your system acclimated to joy or to hope. or optimism or gratitude so that you don't have this snapback effect from your nervous system. Because if you do try to introduce joy when you're in freeze in this super high level, it's just not going to land.
Speaker: Hmm. Yeah. I like what you said, that joy. like ah Joy can bring us back. or bring us there yeah yes can you give like a quick the example what that might look like.
Speaker: Yeah, so one of the practices that's from the book and that I i i do this every day on social media, I've donet been doing this for a year and a half, um is tiny little joys. And so that practice is super simple. You just take your... your Take 10 seconds and look around your immediate environment. Find something that sparks a little bit of joy.
Speaker: And then spend maybe 10, 7 to 12 seconds. kind of feeling into that joy so i'll give you an example i got a new keyboard a mechanical keyboard the other day. And it's sitting right here on my desk, right in front of us. And it has its gold shiny keys. And. I love it. Like I carry it around the house. I love it so much. And so when I'm sitting here doing, practicing tiny little joys would mean.
Speaker: looking at the keyboard and thinking. about that joy. And then if I can, connecting that into my body. So what does that feel like? It makes me instantly smile. It makes it gives me energy. I so immediately start wanting to do this with my fingers, like type. um And so I'm connecting the felt sense then with the cognition of joy. And then I can put that down and focus back in our conversation.
Speaker: and and and move on. um And the reason that that brings us to joy is that I'm not trying to get to a state of happiness or a state of joy. It's just about spending 10 seconds imprinting it and then noticing like, hey, that has an impact on the way that I feel in my body.
Speaker: Like everything in my body just changed for a couple of seconds. But then I don't have to stick with that. I don't have to make that my identity. I don't have to. I can just sort of move on. And I think...
Speaker: The thing that I've seen... I sort of hilariously decided to do this January 1, 2025, because I had the Joy Reset coming out in in May. And then. And I said on Instagram, I'm going to do a tiny little joy every single day.
Speaker: And then I proceeded to have like... This gets kind of funny, but it's not funny. Like one of the hardest years of my life. um And I was forced because I had said that I was going to, to do tiny little joys every single day. And I was, and this is coming from the person who had just written the book.
Speaker: Sure, of course. at Right, right? shocked at how grounding it was and how regulating it was because that practice did not change any of the circumstances that were going on in my life.
Speaker: But it gave me an anchor. And so instead of being just completely at sea. I had this daily practice, which was regulating my body. And I really, really believe I saw firsthand how it helped me to get through all of that.
Speaker: Yeah, it's like I'm thinking of... um It made me remember the... I don't know if you read the book The Alchemist. Yes, I love that book. That's actually yeah the name of my um coaching company and for that reason. yep Well, there you go. Yeah, the by Paul Coelho. I love that great book in short. if By the way,
Speaker: Those listening and watching, if you ever read it, go read the book. by Paulo Coelho, who's Brazilian, I believe, the alchemist. And he talks about how I think this is the desert. Like once you get to the like the the point of growth is then you hit your biggest trial. Like life brings you all the things to then apply what you just learned. And so hearing that.
Speaker: exactly Not that we wish that, but I guess it makes sense when we get to that point of... I now have to practice the thing. which is the hardest place to do it. And it's often where people will turn away from.
Speaker: and not press it it's like oh it's okay now i shouldn't do this versus pressing in to that space in hearing that just it totally reminded me of that just because um yeah so that was
Speaker: A little moment. that i have I love that. I love that phrasing too, because I think that is true, right? you're And then that's what's so cool about tools and this knowledge, because now that now, if I know this about my nervous system and I know these tools that can regulate it, then it's not just about healing the past. It's about being able to handle these challenges that come forward and these things that meet us in our in our journeys.
Speaker: And what would you say, because I'm totally with you on all of this, and I think sometimes we're... I always love to hear other people's thoughts on this. Because I have heard many times with many clients and... and um where Even doing the practice for 10 seconds, it's like...
Speaker: It's almost there's a resistance to even doing the practice. Because well I'm going to feel bad. and you know I don't really believe it yet. It's almost like a... I'm faking positivity. Mm -hmm. So what would you say to that? Because I've heard that many times.
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, I think two things. I think it's super important to respect where your nervous system is And so forcing something I think is never the right move. If this is not the right tool and your body is telling you that.
Speaker: It's not the right tool. Maybe it will be in a month. Now you know about it. So maybe you can try it or you'll have a situation where you'll have a kiddo and you're at your wit's end about how to help them and you try it with them and see it works with them. And then you want to try it for yourself. like I think, proceed ah with your own nervous system. And that being said.
Speaker: What's the harm in trying it on? Okay. Like just for five days, try it on. Just try it on. Yeah. and i've And I mean, I get the resistance because I've I've yeah i've worked with.
Speaker: um with clients and populations who are just sort of... who are socialized against joy, right? Previously incarcerated gang members, veterans, you know, folks who who are in the foster system and have been... have had incredibly hard beginnings.
Speaker: um Yeah. and I think if... People are willing to try it for five days and just see or for two days and just see. um I've never had someone carry the resistance into the experiment, actually, which is kind of realizing this right now. The resistance comes before and it totally makes sense. But then once you have said, okay, I, you know.
Speaker: This wacky lady is telling me to do this thing and she's not going to let it go. So I'm going to give it a shot. um it's pretty Once you see that the the impact, it's like, okay, fine. but well I appreciate that. ah and It's funny because you'd like oh it's and it's honoring the nervous system to one degree.
Speaker: Um, meeting yourself where you are. And also... pressing in. Because I think part of healing... in a way requires us to go to the unfamiliar. which is but and let's say use joy as the unfamiliar as an example yeah To get there, there's going to be a...
Speaker: There's going to be a necessity to press into the unfamiliar, which is going to activate the fear part of our nervous system. totally yeah Because the brain is a predictive machine. right um And so it's going to predict.
Speaker: danger or failure or more hurt. well Why would I do joy? It's more risky. So there is a requirement to actually do the work. Yeah. Whether we say fake it till you make it, whatever it is, there is something to press in beyond. what our nervous system might be telling us or signaling us Right. Is not safe.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I find that fascinating. and and it's yeah changed It is a big part of change. And it's and I also like I. i I think one of the hardest things to learn, I had a therapist tell me this a long time ago, just like my individual therapist. She said, you know, I think one of the biggest like things of adulthood is figuring out when to push and when to. went to rest.
Speaker: Right. And I think that that's true in like literally everything. Work, weightlifting, trauma healing, like anything. Yeah, all of it. Yeah. So yeah, but I think even that practice of like checking in with yourself about that is a way of getting, you know, into a better relationship with your nervous system. Like, dude, are we really at at a place right now where we can't push for 10 seconds?
Speaker: Maybe. right Right. But maybe not. Right. And so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's so well said that. it' it is that balance and i think sometimes with you know certain individuals it's like the balance is really...
Speaker: overly weighted into one cat into one area. especially if they're stuck by these thieves and so the balance is really off balance and What is balance, especially if there's no blueprint? Right.
Speaker: of actual balance right there is a blueprint but right not a pal. And so, yeah. Oh yeah. I love how you said that because I think this is the thing about joy. Like we, that we are so tempted to look at every, and listen, like me too. Skepticism is one of the most fun places to be cognitively. I love to be a skeptic. That's it.
Speaker: But we look at everything with skepticism and we think like, okay, well, you know, how is this possibly gonna help me? And how is this gonna be a thing? Like, this is ridiculous, you know? um But if you take that through the practice, it it just unravels it a little bit and um it doesn't it doesn't hold up.
Speaker: Hmm. Bye. Yeah, I'm with you on that one. Totally. um But it's it's a process of change. you know In a way, we've got to meet the clients with where they where they're at, and they may not be ready yet. Totally.
Speaker: to to like... receive that you know their mind may not be fertile enough to receive that seed Um, And it's it's kind of a it's ah it's different for everybody. it's now There's no one -size -fits -all to this. and Um... especially in our current landscape was how big. things are on social media and how There's things over -promised.
Speaker: quick fixes and i think what i tend to find is the slow process of In your book. acknowledging what are these thieves and how do I begin to redo? and relearn. Rewire. this whole process.
Speaker: Right, right, right. Oh, wait, sorry. I had forgotten what I was going to say when I was talking about skepticism. We give skepticism so much power because it feels like rational capacity, like this is our superpowers to tear things apart. But I think what when you were talking about the blueprint of the nervous system, the the the traumatized, the the blueprint that has been shaped by trauma is giving you half a worldview.
Speaker: It is actively blocking all of the good stuff. And it's it's it's amplifying the negativity bias we already have in the brain and the body. And so when we introduce joy, we're actually not.
Speaker: faking it we're giving ourselves a wider more accurate worldview it is not the case that everything is bad It just looks like that and feels like that. And so when we kind of bring in that other half, it's like, oh, I think that's another thing that makes our nervous systems feel more settled is because we we know on some level that's actually more true.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, and as Dr. Porges has said, the state... you know State drive story, right? So depending on your nervous system state. That's your lens and how you experience, view, understand, perceive. make sense of the world itself.
Speaker: yeah And when you introduce joy. And I think. I do think it it does require intention. it does require like i must practice much like everything that we do and i think For a lot of people, I think doing this work or even some clients is they forget that it record that a lot of this is practic so practicing a new...
Speaker: Skill. Like a new muscle. And it's not going to happen after one time of practice or two times or three. But I think we get in this mindset of like, well, it didn't work, so go away. Well, it's obviously not. Not working for me.
Speaker: Right. Right. I thought about it and I was skeptical and I didn't like it. And so they're like it so must be bad. It must not be for me. and or or Or it reproves how, you know, the shame narrative, I'm broken or whatever, because it didn't work on the like.
Speaker: And I always give the analogy, it's like, well, do you want a microwave TV dinner? Right. right That's a great one. ah Which... Sometimes, yes. you know And there's some there's there's food there. um or i think of like Getting a really nice piece. Sorry if you don't you't eat meat, but a really good piece of meat.
Speaker: And you smoke it for like. You know. long and slow six, seven, eight, 10 hours. And then you cook it and then you finish it. And then you sit down and enjoy this really. yeah intentional process. It's going to taste very different.
Speaker: Yeah. Then I think of those old TV dinners and as a kid that had like a little, I think, um, uh penguin on it i think it was all frozen you had like the pudding and you had yeah I think there was a pi little green.
Speaker: peas or the like i'm thinking of some curry calendar all yeah terrible It was terrible. um But we ate it. And it's like, I think sometimes we're sold. this quick fix of like the microwave TV dinner.
Speaker: yeah Rather than the slow process. And most good things come from the slow, consistent practice over and over and over again. And I think even in this, the nervous system is a slow. rewiring process relearning what safety looks like joy um and and so with that said i'm wondering If you could change one thing.
Speaker: about how we talk about trauma and healing right now. Amen. would you want to change? They could be changed tomorrow. um it's so hard to pick one thing the thing that comes to mind is that I wish we gave ourselves the grace that we are more likely to give ourselves with physical healing. than psychological.
Speaker: And that goes. to what you were just saying, because I think, you know, if if I decide I want to be a bodybuilder. Right. Or I want to run a marathon.
Speaker: Or if I have a broken arm. In all of those cases, there's a goal that I want to achieve and there's a process by which I'm going to achieve it. And there might be some things I find on Instagram that say, if you eat only... you know cheese and beans, you'll get to whatever. you know you're You're only building muscle at some point. some crap. Yeah, sure. Um, but We know that those processes take a long time and that it's somewhat...
Speaker: rigorous right to go through that we're going to have to challenge ourselves and we're going to have days that don't feel good and that those days don't mean we're not healing i think if we gave ourselves that kind of grace when it came to healing from trauma or dealing with grief You know, um it would be.
Speaker: A lot. we would, the the path would be a lot easier because we wouldn't shame ourselves for for things not working on day one. You know, I i tried EMDR three times and and it didn't, and I still i saw have anxiety. Well, right.
Speaker: That's because you're a human being that has a nervous system who's alive in 2026. welcome to the party you know um that makes sense and and so yeah i think i guess i guess the The way to sum that up is I wish we had a different frame on healing.
Speaker: Yeah. Oh, I love that. i I would love that too. A different frame of... Um... I think a more grace -filled... patient -filled.
Speaker: Yeah. compassionate field frame. Yes. um Exactly. Well said. which is like a rig - rigid box. Yeah. Yeah. And black or white or like I'm healed or I'm not, you know, I did, but I did therapy three years ago and now I'm having this new thing. and What's wrong? I thought I healed. Yeah. Yeah. I did it. Or I, or I did the EMDR three times and it didn't work. So therefore throw everything out. um Right. Right. But again, what I see that when I hear people say that I'm like, Oh, they're, they're in there.
Speaker: they're in ah they're in a survival state of the nervous system. So it makes sense why they might say that because it's... Of course. It's all it's all risky. It's all risk and there's more pain there. Oh, and discomfort. It's so uncomfortable. Get me to the... you know Whatever I have to do, get me to the place where I don't have to feel this level of pain. um yeah And if if if someone...
Speaker: Like, what are you hoping most?
Speaker: uh for people to take away from The joy reset. Hmm. That joy is. Not. frivolous and fluffy Yeah. gritty and tenacious and it's okay if you don't believe in it because it's going to show up anyway And our whole job. is to learn how to let it in Hmm.
Speaker: Ooh, I love that. It's not. frivolous. It's not flowery. It's gritty. Yes, I love that so much. yeah And if we, you know, those are listening, if we wanted to find your work.
Speaker: Where can we find you, your writing, your books, everything? where Where do we need to go? So I'm on um TikTok and Instagram at the same handles, just mc .phd. If you want to practice tiny little joys or just watch other people do it, um you can follow me there. Also, my website is drmcmcdonald .com and Unbroken and the Joy Reset are available anywhere you buy books.
Speaker: Hmm. Well, MC, I... Gosh, this is... This has been a stellar conversation and I appreciate your work so much and just being able to conversate with you and dialogue and hear how you see things. And I really think it's.
Speaker: a needed framework um Yes. And so those that are listening, go buy her book, go check it out. um Apply those small moments of practicing. Joy.
Speaker: and uh... Yeah, blessings to you. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you. This has been so lovely.
Speaker: Thanks for listening to Wired 4 Connection. a Polyvagal podcast produced by Polyvagal Institute. New episodes of this podcast are published monthly. Follow Polyvagal Institute on social media to learn more about upcoming guests and episode release dates. To learn more about Polyvagal Theory and support PVI on their mission to create a safer and more connected world, visit their website at polyvagal .org.
