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Insilico Terminal Podcast Episode 2 - Marusha
49 Plays27 days ago
This episode follows Marusha’s journey from gaming into crypto, exploring her early trading wins, burnout, and return with a deeper focus on options and algorithmic strategies. We dive into CT culture, on-chain perps vs. options, Hyperliquid, pump.fun, and the love/hate relationship traders have with the market.
Follow Marusha: https://x.com/maruushae
0:00 Marusha background, move into crypto, gaming connection, first mentor
06:56 Early trading experiences, bullrun luck, burnout, taking a break to study options and algo trading
12:31 Joining Discord & Crypto Twitter, learning from criticism, evolution of CT culture and knowledge
19:10 Post-2021 break return, deeper understanding of options, market structure, perp vs options impact
26:03 Binary options, perpetuals as the ultimate gambling product, on-chain options challenges
30:08 Interest in Hyperliquid, Solana DEX experience, no-KYC appeal, farming and airdrop
38:21 Algorithmic trading focus, arbitrage strategies, funding opportunities, directional vs neutral trading
40:00 Pump.fun discussion
42:20 Motivation to keep going, defining 'retired'
50:05 Struggles in trading, love/hate relationship with the market and CT community
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Transcript
Maru's Background and Introduction to Crypto
00:00:14
Speaker
Okay, great. um I always just thought by letting people introduce themselves. So how would you introduce yourself to people that don't know you maybe? Yeah, sure. So im Maru, I'm a derivative trader mainly.
00:00:30
Speaker
I came from a network computing background, so I did a lot of network for my school and I worked at two years in a network company before burning out.
00:00:42
Speaker
ah Then after I did a lot of crypto first, but then perpetual, then option. And yeah, mainly right now, most of my time is keep improving my edge in an automated way.
00:00:57
Speaker
I did a lot of scalping, but less now. And yes, that's kind of me overall. Okay, nice. So how did you first get into crypto and like what attracted you to it?
00:01:08
Speaker
I didn't get attracted. I was aware of it because in network computing, you learn a lot about cryptographic stuff, basically, because it's at a security level and it's very important to understand it.
00:01:20
Speaker
But it was after I leave my job in network comp computing. So i was doing some web dev to my own business. um And what happened is I was playing a lot of time Fortnite because I wasn't having that much client for some period.
00:01:35
Speaker
And one dude carried me on Fortnite and he was fun during the game. And I was like, hey, you know what? i Can we add each other as friends and speak more because I enjoy the moment and we get more friends and he explained me, I do crypto, I do investing. And I was like, oh, explain me because he already knew network computing because that was his initial courses of school also.
00:02:01
Speaker
So yeah, mainly by him, just me and him being friends and he introduced me to crypto, how he thinks about investing. He was also helping me a lot when I started Derivative, basically, because I didn't understood leverage, ah didn't understood funding, different type of order.
00:02:23
Speaker
So yeah, mainly is this person who introduced me to crypto more than myself going into right. So he was kind of your mentor getting into it. Yeah, it was a very beginner friendly mentor.
00:02:37
Speaker
He never ah helped me to push. And after ah one year, I was way beyond i in terms of knowledge of derivative product. But yeah, very good mentor for a beginner. You know, like for a beginner, you just need to be kickstarted as a what is leverage? What are the different type of order?
00:03:00
Speaker
what is funding, what is a future contract versus an underlying. And yeah, you really even if that was not that much, it's helped me enough to go into my own way searching stuff I wanted to know about crypto.
00:03:16
Speaker
Do you still know that person? Like, do you know if they are still in crypto? Oh, yeah, yeah, he's still in crypto. We talk like one to two times a year because I mean, when we want to play video game together like we do from time to time, but it's just we don't speak that much anymore because what bring us together in the first place was video game. And since I did a lot of crypto, I got way less time for video game. Right. So it's more a me issue than him.
00:03:48
Speaker
I see. I see. So when you first got into crypto, you also immediately got into trading, right? Like that was the first part. You weren't that much into the technology, but like got into trading immediately.
From Day Trading to Strategic Approaches
00:04:00
Speaker
and No, actually. So when you make me discover a crypto, so I opened an account on Kraken, I think, to trade the XMR because I read the white paper of Monero and Bitcoin and I was like, damn, a readyif fuck qui is that I that idea.
00:04:16
Speaker
Like my father is was a bit anarchist when he was younger. So whatever was very close to this idea. Uh, it was something inside me. I feel deeply. So I was like, yeah, actually fuck with the idea.
00:04:31
Speaker
Either with peer to peer or as a fact, uh, financial transaction or a transaction can be anonymous, right? Uh, it doesn't need to have a cow. I see. I don't need to know with my counterpart. I just need to know somebody we're gonna keep the ledger accountable because they're gonna share it between each other.
00:04:53
Speaker
And, uh, but yeah, initially it was just more day investing and day trading XMR. I was buying low, selling high, uh, trading came six months, five or six months after when I start, uh, the 11th November, 2019 on That's when I started to go really deep into trading like nonstop.
00:05:20
Speaker
i see so it's kind of similar to me actually i remember i first got into crypto in 2017 but for me it's actually a bit different because i didn't even think about trading until i think four years later and didn't even really like grasp the concept that it's like tradable assets obviously i thought it's nice that you can make money but i also got really into the technology of like bitcoin monero eve even though there was no smart contracts that really did anything back then But um how did you first start out with trading? like You did the the day investing, I guess, and then you went on BitMEX. Where did it go from there? ah Yeah, so it was mainly just day trading a lot from 11 November 2019 to
00:06:06
Speaker
So I will say March 2021, it was mainly trading every day. so initially it was XRP, but at some point BitMEX did a giant week on XRP, which really make me reconsider how I decide what I said what iset i want to trade and why, especially why more than what I said.
00:06:31
Speaker
um I did good. I got lucky, to be honest. honest like I was clicking every day, but the whole start of 2020 was being more lucky than anything else. Everything could have wiped me.
00:06:45
Speaker
And then after riding the Comet of the bullrun, And in March 2020, I did a bit of a burnout because i was my day was from morning to night. I wake up, I do a coffee, open the PC, this until I go to sleep and repeat.
00:07:03
Speaker
And I think it was in March, yeah because we did a giant dip from 60K to 40K or something like that. And I did lost a lot of money.
00:07:15
Speaker
And I was like, yeah, I need to to take a break and learn a bit more. Like there is really a gap between my knowledge and my gain.
00:07:27
Speaker
So yeah, after I did a giant break during summer 2021, when I just did go out with my wife to see her family and I was reading option book and I'll go trading book every day. More option, I'll go trading came later.
00:07:44
Speaker
But yeah, that's when it's really switched a bit from a day trading scalper to a more automated or a bit more strategic way to approach the market. Not anymore.
00:07:58
Speaker
That's what I wanted to ask. Did you have like a strategy during that time where you're trading like looking back? Is there anything um like did you do mostly mean reversion or a trend following or was it a bit more just like gut feeling and luck and stuff like that?
00:08:11
Speaker
It was a lot of feeling and luck. I really have no shame to use the term luck. I think people don't want to use it, but for a me, that's fine.
Lessons Learned and Relationship Support
00:08:20
Speaker
um no i was a lot already into momentum and how to analyze the tape for example like if i see nobody trading through a day i'm not gonna try to play the hero and go in but if i see ah today there is way more volumes than the the last seven days. My brain was like, okay, today we lock in, we click, trick click, click, click.
00:08:45
Speaker
So it wasn't an advanced strategy, but my brain was somewhat already aware of when I want to be here and when I don't want to be here.
00:08:57
Speaker
and what But nothing fancy. yeah What were some of the biggest mistakes that you made when you look back to that time now? like Did you use too much leverage or how did you act during that week with with the XRP week, for example?
00:09:10
Speaker
ah Yeah, but XRP week was different. It was a bit of, you know, the order book gets empty and somebody's going to market it said and it's going to weak 50% under the actual price.
00:09:26
Speaker
I don't think I did that much mistake, to be honest, at the moment. I think my only mistake was not understanding it was profitable over long term.
00:09:38
Speaker
yeah And that's why i say I got lucky because I was here during the bull market of the COVID, which is one of the best opportunities could have dream of.
00:09:49
Speaker
So yeah, most of the money I did initially was thanks to luck to be here during a bull market. And that's why when I got wiped in March, I was like, okay, you got enough money, you're good in your life, but now you need to really focus because if you keep doing that shit and market wipe you, you're going to go back to fucking
00:10:11
Speaker
We say put on quite in France, which is as a company when the people who have no job basically and help you find a job. So yeah, i was like really need to focus, you know.
00:10:23
Speaker
But you already did it full time back then, right? Like you didn't have another job. Excuse me? You already did crypto trading full time back then and you didn't have another job. No, yeah, i was lucky. My wife told me we speak a lot with my wife about stuff we do in life. We consult each other and she was like, no, you good. Life is good.
00:10:45
Speaker
If you need, you get the time you want to try your stuff. I just want to see you happy. And so, yeah, it's been way more early than we were expecting. But once again, that's the look, that's 2020 bullrun, you know, like those type of variable you cannot really control in life. And if you're here, you're here.
00:11:05
Speaker
If you're not here, you're not here. You know, it is what it is. But I guess it's also very nice that you had your wife to like support you in that time. um like Because I can imagine if you're just by yourself and trying something like this, it can be quite mentally exhausting, I guess. And it must be really nice to have someone that's like there for you and supporting you mentally and pushing you to to be better.
00:11:28
Speaker
Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. But I mean, I pay her a back right now. She lost her job recently and I was like, you don't worry, I got everything covered. You don't even think about it. You do whatever you want with your life and behind you.
00:11:41
Speaker
So, you know, it's on enough supporting each other our period where we really focus hard into what we want in life or and not. So, yeah. Did you already use ah CT back then, like where you own it from the beginning?
00:11:55
Speaker
No, not at all. ah this I discovered it very late. So I was on Red XBT Discord a lot in 2020. That's where I learned English and trading.
00:12:07
Speaker
ah Because before September 2020, as I say, it was a lot of luck and just gut feeling and a bit of momentum, but I wasn't understanding what is a future contract, what is option, etc.
Community Engagement and Knowledge Sharing
00:12:20
Speaker
etc So I joined Reddix BT Discord by chance and that's when I discovered a bit more CT, but I didn't join CT officially before summer 2021. was posting on and off, but yeah, was more on Discord. like I prefer the direct interaction with Discord.
00:12:44
Speaker
And then over time, I realized when I meet in Silico on Twitter, I was like, I can be the same on Discord as Twitter, where it's a direct chat, constant direct chat. It's not just me posting and waiting eight hours for having three answers, you know, to debate about some stuff.
00:13:02
Speaker
It just we can go on timeline like it's Discord or ah instant chat. So that's when, yes, summer 2021, that's when I start to show up every day, thanks to in Silico pretty much.
00:13:15
Speaker
so did you also did that really help in your journey did you like learn a lot just by posting on twitter and interacting with people yeah because people criticize a lot of a lot your idea so i think that's very important because when you are alone in your room you don't get that much criticized aside if you lost money which is the best stuff to learn but Still, I think it was very interesting for a bit more a younger version of me as a trader to get slapped by more experienced people saying, no, that's literally retarded what you just say.
00:13:50
Speaker
That was very valuable back in the day. as The same way in Silico was sharing a lot of automated stuff. It learned me about smart order routing, which I did a new back in the day, but which is one of the most valuable thing I know right now, to be honest.
00:14:08
Speaker
So, yeah, it's more about crypto Twitter value is having more experienced people ready to slap the fuck out of you publicly. And that's a good thing for your ego. So like if you're willing to say, that's fine, I don't know and I'm going to learn.
00:14:24
Speaker
That's a very good thing because you judge publicly. So you're kind of forced to, hey, I'm stupid. I'm going to be better and next time, you know. Do you still feel like that's the case today?
00:14:36
Speaker
Since it's ah been four years, I guess, and crypto Twitter has changed quite a lot. Do you still feel like that can be valuable or even that someone would just start out today and get the same level of value that you got back then? a Different value.
00:14:50
Speaker
It still has value. It's harder to get the same value. and The issue is with the new meta, ah since 2023, we got a lot of summer on chain meta. We got a lot of Pumpfun, Moonpay, all those type of application forcing people into fast extraction and you cannot really teach a lot or analyze a lot about it about saying well there is one chance it's gonna get you enough support to keep going such as far it coins you know like far it can keep going over a long enough period of time versus the thousand of dog shit influence or token would I ah you still think there is value if you want to search it
00:15:38
Speaker
It's just a different value. It's more hard to scrape and biggest influencer is a bigger ah part of inf influencer.
00:15:50
Speaker
They really like, I don't give a fuck. I don't want to teach other people anymore. Yeah. But then maybe they never got something to teach to start with. It just everybody was so dumb back in the days. I don't realize that.
00:16:04
Speaker
yeah is i don't know which one it is you know i don't want to be the judge of that but for me it's the same it's just a bit different but that's the same and i think it's good almost because you came and you have those people who already done a full cycle and they're gonna come at you with some some of them risk management some of them how to think about altcoin and vc you know like you Since Hyperliquid, we saw a lot how people say VC bad, revenue sharing good, right?
00:16:39
Speaker
For example, that's a good thing for me.
Understanding Options and Market Strategies
00:16:42
Speaker
And that's Influencer who kick at that. That's not exchange. Hyperliquid did the revenue sharing, but that's Influencer who creates this narrative, fuck VC, we love revenue coin, right?
00:16:54
Speaker
So yeah, still value ability just up to how you think about it and who you search for, right? Mm-hmm. I guess it's like developing and and changing.
00:17:06
Speaker
It just made me think because you also play League of Legends, ah some people maybe won't get this, but I remember back in the day, like the knowledge gap today is so much bigger than it was back then. Like not the gap, but like the level of understanding, even people that are very bad at the game have, it's like way higher than it was five or ten years ago.
00:17:26
Speaker
Oh yeah. And I guess it's very similar in crypto now, like even like back then the knowledge was way, way less and people, I mean, there's still a lot of people that don't really understand what is going on at all, but their general level of knowledge has definitely increased.
00:17:40
Speaker
It's so high. Yeah, it's so f***ing. That's an excellent example of how we did so much guide in city and explanations and the average knowledge is way f***ing higher. yeah That's a very good example with how a video game evolves.
00:17:58
Speaker
So yeah, you agree. it just I think the issue with cities is we are echo chamber. So if one person thinks city worse now than it was before, People are just going to repeat that and it's going to keep in our mind, right?
00:18:12
Speaker
It's just different, that's all. It's different. But yeah, as you say, people are way beyond what they were. Like beginner and now, they are stuck as fuck versus beginner back in the day.
00:18:27
Speaker
I feel like it is also harder to get into, I guess, if the knowledge becomes more sophisticated because it's just getting way bigger. Like there's so many people. Oftentimes I see people on Twitter and they have like a lot of followers and I've never seen their account before. And there's so many different parts of Twitter nowadays.
00:18:43
Speaker
It's not just like one thing anymore. But then there's like Solana people, there's Hyperliquid people, there's ETH people. There's not that much crossover anymore as it used to be back in the day when everything was smaller, I think.
00:18:55
Speaker
yeah yeah that's a good point also there is way more bubble of people who keep inside that bubble you know like for ah me you we are inside the bubble of in silico kobe inverse bra but a lot of people wouldn't even know in silico or kobe maybe in various bra i think is in various bra is more universal singing to city but yeah to you know each of their own bubble
00:19:24
Speaker
ah So going back to trading after, i think in 2021 summer, you took your break. Yeah. How did you go back get back in after that? Like what changed? A lot of my understanding on how stuff was price and why option matters so much in terms of pricing. So bi before I was understanding edging and yield collecting, but only via future cash and carry.
00:19:52
Speaker
So was like, okay, i understand how to edge and I understand why people edge with future because they collect a yield until the end of the contract. But future always been a bit illiquid, the quarterly one. So I was like, I'm still missing a piece.
00:20:08
Speaker
And with option, I understood, oh, that's how people edge daily, monthly, quarterly. That's how they price stuff, how much premium for is that price.
00:20:20
Speaker
So Yeah, it was ah change of how I see market overall. A big change, to be honest. I think that was the biggest one in terms of what is a price and how price develop over time or over a session, a day, etc.
00:20:38
Speaker
Can you explain a bit more how that works? Because some'm I'm a little bit familiar with how options work to a degree, but not really like the influence in price and what you just described, like with the hedging and stuff.
00:20:51
Speaker
Yeah, um um I mean, we're going to keep it relatively simple, but basically when you hedge, you can go to Perpetual or a Future of Auction.
00:21:03
Speaker
Perpetual is a payout is linear, so it's good, but it's not really you take advantage from your supply. If you get a lot of Bitcoin in inventory, you want to get more Bitcoin.
00:21:17
Speaker
Future, the issue is Delta neutral ah is coin margin base, but to be Delta neutral, you're going to need to sell your spot, which is an issue. But with Option, it's just your payout going to be in Bitcoin if you use Deripit.
00:21:31
Speaker
And what's happened is Option, depending on what strike you take and how much value you put inside them, it's going to act as a support or as a resistance because
00:21:45
Speaker
or are as something we're going to trigger volatility. So far as a volatility example, if you eat a certain level, maybe a market maker or an actor going to be offside and you're going to be forced to say, damn, they eat this strike, I need to edge. And it's going to create momentum when they're going to edge or sell this to cover the loss, for example.
00:22:10
Speaker
And resistance and support is kind of the same. It's those price where it doesn't make sense as an option point of view to try to break this because the value you're going to get back from it, it's already protected from other people. So they're not going to be forced to sell or buy to cover the shit they did via option.
00:22:29
Speaker
So even if you break it, as they don't give effect not going to get support from them. So yeah, that's more ah how option you can see it at a basic level.
00:22:39
Speaker
People use it to edge it or to cover the mistakes they did. They can do profit with it also, but that's very different, right? So yeah, if somebody, you can see if somebody is naked in option, not naked, but if you need to unwind this position and if you get to that level, you know, it's firework time. Like this dude gonna need to go into the order book because he lost a lot of money and he gonna need to set his inventory to be breakeven again. Right?
00:23:08
Speaker
So yeah, that's kinda how you can see option at a basic level. um So I don't know if I understand it properly, um but sort of options market makers basically they sell you the options right and then they need to hedge it when it reaches a certain level because they need to pay you out.
00:23:27
Speaker
Is that kind of ah how it works?
00:23:31
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They don't actually sell you options. I mean, they do later on, but they write options, which is a bit different. But yeah, i mean, later on, they're going to sell you. have If they think today volatility is going to be low, they're going to be seller of some call to make a spread. And this spread is a short volatility, for example.
00:23:57
Speaker
But does this actually have that much impact in crypto? I didn't think like options... I know they exist, but I don't feel like they have gained that much share of importance. Are they really that important in crypto compared to to perbps Perp is more important at the end of the day.
00:24:15
Speaker
Perp is like top one product in crypto ah because Perp have naturally leveraged. So it's allow you even as an institution to come with a ah lot of different accounts and say I'm 100x long and I do that on 1000 account, for example.
00:24:35
Speaker
You can do a lot of stuff with Perpetuals and you cannot do with option. yeah So Perpetual is more determining the final price and option will.
00:24:49
Speaker
Option is still important because once again, if somebody have 1000 Bitcoin to edge because he did some shit on option, you're gonna sell them via perpetual, right?
00:25:00
Speaker
But still that flow coming because one option mistake did happen, right? So is that just different how you approach it basically. Do you think options will gain more in importance and popularity?
00:25:15
Speaker
I think so, but not under the format they are right now. I think what is very popular is binary option because people just see it like a roulette, you know, or a fucking, how it's called the emoji we do on Telegram. It's not roulette, it is.
00:25:37
Speaker
You know, the running thing and it's Oh, the gambling one, you mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, the 777. and so and Yeah, they're the slot machine. Ah, yeah, slot machine. Thank you. Yeah, so I think binary is more easy for people because they see it as slot machine. Just up or it down, you don't have to even bother with the pricing of it, right?
00:25:56
Speaker
Can you explain binary options a bit more? What would do you use them for? Binary option is just up or down, basically. Mm-hmm. so but you just So it's basically like a bet on, I don't know, let's say what happens in the next day or in the next hour, if it goes up or down from where we are right now. Yeah.
00:26:14
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Basically, that's it. It's just literally like up or down on a certain period of time and you got either a linear break ah payout. Most of the time it's linear because otherwise you lose money as a company will sell it.
00:26:29
Speaker
But yeah, I think under this format, option is attracting to retail, but Perpetual already does this. You know, you came, you put your leverage and you say or down long short, you know.
00:26:40
Speaker
And since there is no expiration like TradFi, it's more attractive Perpetual. And that's why Perpetual works. It's because... It's a good gambling machine versus future.
00:26:52
Speaker
yeah Most of people don't look at funding, so it just up or down. There is no premium. There is no rolling. You don't have to bother like in TradFi to say, oh, but the contract is finishing today, so I need to roll my position into the next quarter or monthly. It just, I can up down like Perpetual is literally the best gambling machine CryptoCult have done. And that's why Even if Archer is retarded sometime, big shout out to him because the way he did stuff was perfect. What he provided was literally perfect.
00:27:26
Speaker
I guess it's like the best gambling tool for for retail that we have in crypto. Yeah, definitely. I'm curious, have you tried um any on-chain option protocols? Do you have any thoughts on them? Do you think they can succeed?
00:27:42
Speaker
a bit illiquid still. I was having one which was very cool but the issue is the founder is a bit particular. It was an edgy option and you could see the spread you were doing and shit, right?
00:27:58
Speaker
yeah The issue is the founder, you know, it is a bit... I'm not gonna say schizo but you know, you never know what's gonna be his next move.
00:28:11
Speaker
uh no but i think they got chance to succeed but the issue is writing option is a very expensive business not that much people know how to do it and crypto due to the fact there is so many volatility it's very hard for people who came from trade fight to say we're gonna write options the same way we did in traditional finance because volatility return and risk isn't the same especially with the convex city if you provide coinmorgge coin base such as Bitcoin or Ethereum instead of USDT Payout.
00:28:46
Speaker
So I think they got chance to succeed. But if somebody makes it succeed, it's probably going to be somebody who have experience in traditional finance business, not crypto.
00:28:56
Speaker
Yeah. Is there anyone is trying on Hyperliquid? I feel like I've not seen that so far, but I guess it would be the next place where it would kind of make sense to try. to try Yeah, possible. I didn't shake it, I'm not gonna lie.
00:29:11
Speaker
i didn't shake that much what happened to Paraliquid recently. But...
00:29:19
Speaker
I mean, if Shoku came with it, sure. If Jeff came with it, sure. If that's a random ask, yeah, not going to believe it. That's my issue with the Paraliquid recently is Jeff make a perpetual project, which is extremely good. Shoku make a spot project, which is good.
00:29:37
Speaker
But most of people who gravitate around Hyperliquid right now, is our affecting dish they leash. They just here to extract. They not align with Hyperliquid. So I don't believe them.
00:29:48
Speaker
I just believe Jeff and Shoku because it's been soon two years, one year, two years, two years I use Hyperliquid and it's good. You know, I trust Jeff. He proves he's good.
00:30:02
Speaker
Shoku, same. But the rest, you know, you can go fuck yourself. I don't trust you single thing.
00:30:08
Speaker
I guess it is kind of, it happens with every ecosystem. If you like, if you look back on the layer ones or whatever, if something is successful, people always try to leach onto it. um Two years ago, it's very, very early, I guess. What made you interested in Hyperliquid at that point?
00:30:24
Speaker
ah So I was trying some decks on Solana because I'm well known to be hating Solana due to the link it was having with SBF but since SBF was in jail I was like you know what I give a shout out to i give a try to Solana now I tried Drift and Zeta which is two perpetual who were available on Solana back in the day absolutely dogshit the most terrible experience I ever got in my life yeah I remember those And I tweet about it. I say, yo guys, I'm sorry. I've tried it. That's dog shit. And somebody tell me, yeah you should give a try to Hyperliquid. That's quite good. You know, so I come on Hyperliquid.
00:31:06
Speaker
I do few market orders, 10K, 20K. I yeah don't move that much the price. I was like, all done. I do, I think it was $90,000 order.
00:31:18
Speaker
And I've moved the price, but not that much. I was like, okay, now we're cooking here. is There is some opportunity here. Yeah. and I don't know. like I like Nokia WC for obvious reason.
00:31:31
Speaker
If any of my federal agents listening to me, I'm paying my tax. Thank you. um But yeah, i think it was just more, you know, naturally when something is good, you're going to gravitate around it.
Platform Experiences and Personal Motivations
00:31:47
Speaker
And for me, that was that. Like Jeff was good. Jeff was smart. The team was nice.
00:31:53
Speaker
Even if Julian can be aggressive from time to time. but And yes, the product was good. So as a derivative trader, I was like, I need to be here. And a lot of funding options came over a time.
00:32:05
Speaker
So it forced me to stay and farm at the same time that I was doing delta neutral stuff with funding and collecting money. So fun in fact, I didn't lose a single money on Hyperliquid. Like over time farming it, I got around 70% profit from funding. I didn't even lose some shit.
00:32:26
Speaker
Oh, nice. So it was very good experience. And then they pay me with an airdrop like everybody else. So very happy about it also. Back then when you started using it, did you see it go into the direction that it went now?
00:32:41
Speaker
I remember when I first saw it, obviously it was better than the Solana counterparts and stuff like DYDX or whatever. But... the I don't think I really like saw the vision office of it succeeding this much.
00:32:54
Speaker
I remember there was one guy, if you remember him, that's always went on about $800 point, i think. Yes, Steve, no? The best best case. I forgot who it was, actually. um I'm not that sure what what the account was. But he was like saying, this is possible and whatever. And for me, it was just like, yeah, this is a good product.
00:33:13
Speaker
It's a good web. It's a good text experience. But I didn't really see how it would end up right now. I didn't really see division that much, I guess. I mean, I wasn't expecting whatever is on-chain. I guess it makes sense they want to build their own chain so they can diversify to other products.
00:33:29
Speaker
For me, it was just about, I farm a perpetual product. It's a good one. And once they're gonna go live, I know they're gonna distribute a token and this token, I can use it as a stacking.
00:33:43
Speaker
So i was like, it makes sense to keep going on until the end. Well, they did the spot season who fucked me a bit because I'm not a spot trader. so I win less than I should have, but I mean, they needed to diversify that spot.
00:34:00
Speaker
But no, I never saw vision. And I remember I was farming with a good friend of mine, which is Gus, and we were always bullposting in Discord together in DM. And I think me and him, we were pretty stacked in terms of points, like ridiculous stack, like top 50, even less than top 50. And we were like, yeah, okay, it's going to be 500K-ish, maybe a bit more. and We got an insane surprise of how much we got.
00:34:30
Speaker
So was like, let's set a bit, you know, because I mean, I'm happy, but let's rest right because we don't give a fuck. And they did so much.
00:34:42
Speaker
They did more for me since the release of the tokens and they did from when joined to the release of the tokens. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it also went up ah quite a lot.
00:34:56
Speaker
Yeah, but even as a project, once again, I don't really give a shit about token price because I farmed it and I profit from it. So from there, I was already happy. But as an ecosystem, they change a lot how they want to do stuff and how they think. Even the double block solution is quite good. like I love that shit because single block based blockchain is kind of retarded from my point of view because it's forced people to pay higher fee to be in front of you.
00:35:25
Speaker
But with double block, you can separate people who want to be competitive and people who want to play fair, right? But what does that mean? Like, what is what is double block? I think double block is the fact you're going to split two blocks into one which is fast and half priority and one which is more slow.
00:35:48
Speaker
uh because if i don't mistake wait so let me remind so double block is one small fast block and one which is bigger but slow so that's mean people who want to go fast they can go fast and they're gonna pay for it basically but people who want to go slow they're gonna be like okay i'm fine i'm inside this slow block you know and um yeah for me it was a good solution because on ethereum it's one single block so if you pay more you can rent this wall block and say fuck you that's my block you know in a slow block you cannot do that shit if i remember correctly okay but is there no issues with like double spending or stuff like that like that they are interfering with each other i think they solve it
00:36:35
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I think they separate the architecture for the two of them. I will need to read it again, but yeah. I mean, Jeff is quite smart. Like, the team of Hyperliquid is quite stuck yet in terms of talents they got.
00:36:49
Speaker
ah I mean, Jeff, even before he was doing Hyperliquid, he was a top HTF already. So that's telling you a lot, right? Because HTF is extremely competitive players, like.
00:37:02
Speaker
Yeah. So do you still do most of your trading on Hyperliquid right now? Yeah. And them also because you mentioned before that you'll do like algorithmic trading mostly now or you moved way more into the algorithmic side. Like is that what you do on Hyperliquid or? Yeah.
00:37:22
Speaker
I mean Hyperliquid not that much, but I'm still doing a lot of algo between Binance, Bybit, Bitfinex, Kraken. I used to have Derrybit, but since I got buyout by Coinbase, I've got rid of my fund because I don't want to be under an administration American base company because they are insanely annoying in terms of tax.
00:37:49
Speaker
I mean, Europe to America company, it's so fucking annoying when you have to do tax stuff.
00:37:59
Speaker
But yeah, I barely quit also a bit. just not as much because it's more easy to do a good infrastructure with centralized exchange than it is with decentralized.
00:38:10
Speaker
Yeah, that's what I was wondering. and um And if you like the stuff with the algorithmic stuff, do you have like certain strategies that you execute directionally or is it mostly like funding ARP and other stuff like that? Yeah, funding ARP and stuff like that because directional, I mean, you execute it, but directional is for everybody. Like if you do a trend trading,
00:38:35
Speaker
Uh, everybody does the same shit as the end of the day. It's literally like, I'm going to slap two, three indicator to trigger the fact it's a trend. And then I slap three more indicator to say is this trend up and dead for ah long enough.
00:38:49
Speaker
So that's a trend, right? It's indicator to start. indicator or to validate that shit, which is more long. And then the more it's go for longer, the more you give strength to it, the more it's range, you lower the strength.
00:39:06
Speaker
But that very directional stuff, it's not really complex stuff. So yeah, mainly arbitrage, not only funding. so I think people misunderstand how work arbitrage a bit in city because if funding happens, that means there is a dislocation of price between two contracts or a contract and ah underlying.
00:39:26
Speaker
Even if you don't collect funding, if you short one long one and the price merge to a central price, you still do profit on bus leg anyway. You don't really give a fuck about funding, right?
00:39:39
Speaker
So yeah, Hyperliquid is very useful for that. For yesterday, for PumFan, I didn't profit from it because I was busy vibe coding funding tool, but yeah.
00:39:53
Speaker
Do you have any thoughts on the on the pump fun token? I feel like it's very controversial right now or there are like many different opinions. I don't really have opinion on it. I'm not gonna lie. um I mean, I've said it publicly, huge shout out to Alon from a dude who begged in DM, not begged, but who asked you just in DM, hey, can you try my project, give me feedback.
00:40:19
Speaker
to a dude with a fucking 600 million sell, even more in 12 minutes. Respect. Even if I don't like the product, I don't fuck with what is pump fun. I still respect how much a dude grinded to be there.
00:40:33
Speaker
I don't really have opinion. ah don't think it's going to flip Twitch or shit like this, but I think one of the best opportunity pump fun as a streamer and as a dude who stream thousand hour, it's people who are don't have that much money or viewer, they can have more incentive to come on PemFen because there is directly this payout from people, you know.
00:40:59
Speaker
The issue is it can be a piece of an LLC, like people are going to pay you to add on a strip or shit like this. So PemFen have a card to play, a good one, but they're going to need to define they own law almost to say okay we know it's finance it's free market but there is stuff you shouldn't do there right ah For the token part, etc. I don't have opinion. It's just on the streaming part since I know all this business, you know, yeah.
00:41:28
Speaker
I was having this opinion about it. I feel very similar to be honest. I kind of ah hate the product. It's not really something that I enjoy existing, but I guess it makes sense that it exists. And I really i really respect the hustle.
00:41:43
Speaker
um I also got the DM back in the day. Oh, you got it also. I didn't really like even think that I used it at the beginning, but shitconning is not really my thing, so I never really got into that.
00:41:56
Speaker
But I really respect the hustle. like that's very it's It's very good success story. i have to admit that. Yeah, exactly. Eight, what is it? Eight, game, not the player, right?
00:42:08
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. that's true That's literally for Adam's case, you know. like I hate the game, but, you know, shout out to player, you're top one on leaderboard. Do your a shit, Queen, you know, type shit.
00:42:19
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. that's true um I have a question. Like, how, since you've... um If you would say like you have to you you have somewhat made it in life.
00:42:33
Speaker
um What is it like what keeps you going still to do everything that you do? Like why do you still want to to keep going and learning and and the improving? I guess.
00:42:44
Speaker
Because I'm retarded.
00:42:48
Speaker
Basically, when I was long young, I was having a lot of issues to learn. Like if there is some sound around me, I cannot focus. If there is a fly passing by me, it's fuckhead.
00:42:59
Speaker
My attention is lost for five minutes. yeah And I was very frustrated that I couldn't pursue superior ah schools such as university. So it's more a nego thing because my father have a PhD basically.
00:43:16
Speaker
And i was like, how the fuck I'm your son? And I cannot even do that shit properly. So initially it was a nego singe and then I did a lot of math. So I did a lot of ah free online stuff.
00:43:29
Speaker
Um, base lower level of computer science. Yeah. And I was like, wait, I'm actually in love with mathematical stuff. Like it's insanely fun. Like it's not anymore. Like when I was young and I was so get criticized by a teacher when I don't do it right.
00:43:47
Speaker
So it's more, I realize I love learning for learning. ah Everything doesn't need to be learned, but the fact I can go sleep with another thing I learned myself is good.
00:44:02
Speaker
And I like just talking with my wife about it because she did work outside. So, you know, she can explain me how it was at work with her friend. Yeah, they had that for me. I'm fucking online all day. So I was having no shit to talk about.
00:44:16
Speaker
Oh yeah, I trade. I should post on Twitter. I put some big book girls on Twitter. So, you know, it was a bit of a part of how I can talk to other people around me. I learned that shit, you know, yeahda yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:44:31
Speaker
But it's more.
00:44:35
Speaker
i don't really care about the monetary value. I'm more sad I could be poor. I will be up here. was poor before and I was up. So it's more about if I don't learn something today. Yes, that's bad. Like so there is some period where I'm going to play a lot of video games, such as when a new season of Patch of Exile go out.
00:44:54
Speaker
I'm going to play for a morning to night nonstop. And after a toast period, you know, it's a bit like post not clarity and you'll be like, you fucking wasted two weeks of your life, you little shit.
00:45:06
Speaker
Yeah, I felt that before. I felt that. Yeah, every fucking gamer who did our core period, we all know the post not clarity of gaming where you you're looking at your twin and you'll be like, what did I have done? No.
00:45:24
Speaker
I don't play that many video games anymore today, but I used to obviously play a lot when I was younger. And the even like sometimes nowadays, like I see something happen or something gets released or whatever, something that really grips me.
00:45:36
Speaker
And then I play a lot and then I and kind of like, because I put so much time into it, I feel very bad afterwards similar to you because it's like when you're a child it's fun to play the whole day you don't really have anything else to do but as an adult it's kind of like ah maybe i should do like some useful stuff as well and not just play video games like all the time yeah so that's one part i'm lucky because i'm married When my wife see I'm doing fucking video games, you're going to take care of the house, right? But if you're a solo, you cannot do that shit. You're still responsible to clean your house, you do the dishes, do some food, or even clean yourself basic shit such as this. But yeah, she got my back when I'm looking. So for example, recently I redid Nier Automata 100%.
00:46:24
Speaker
And for like five days, I didn't move out of the room aside for shower, she came coffee food. But she got my back right. Like when I go out of this period, everything was clean.
00:46:36
Speaker
Bill was pay. She tell me a bit, oh, you got this email, you know, which is a client you forget to answer. yeah Yeah. So yeah, I'm very lucky on that part. the post-camp period, it's not as bad, but thanks to her, you know, it's not missing.
00:46:57
Speaker
that's the that's it Retired is a bit weird concept in the city. I could be retired in term of money. I don't really give a fuck. Like even if I have $10 million, dollars for example, if my wife is not healthy, life is not good. If my mommy sick life is not good. If I didn't do any single shit today, life is not good.
00:47:19
Speaker
For me, retired is more about ah can make sure people around me are healthy. They don't need stuff. They don't need to beg or, you know, still to get some food. And I can do what I want because the definition changed a lot to some people. Some people, they want to have a faking Lamborghini. I don't give a fake. If I want a Lamborghini, I open a set of Corsa and I drive on it on a simulator. like So to which they own, it's a very personal notion, which is weird in city. You see people so much trying to impose their vision.
00:47:55
Speaker
i got I would just say to people, try to find your own definition of happiness. That's when you're fucking retired, you know. Yeah, that makes sense, actually. Like, um would you ever consider doing something else?
00:48:08
Speaker
Like, if crypto wasn't in your life, have you ever thought about that? Yeah, to be honest, yeah. Like, what what would you do if you ever gave some thought to that?
00:48:20
Speaker
I didn't give much thought about that, but chair for example, if we ever do a kid with my wife, I think I don't want the crypto pressure in my life anymore. I want to make sure I can be there for that kiddo, you know, like, so yeah, because you know, shitposting and be online with A personality, even if that's close to yours, you cannot be 100% yourself. And even trading, it's impact your life. And i don't want that if I ever got a other kid.
00:48:56
Speaker
If I can spend more time with animal shelter also, I will keep doing so. I do already, but not enough. But I mean, it's cool to give some students some job also. I think that's important. Yeah, like click giving back.
00:49:10
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, no, that's something I still need to define. I'm kind of lucky I'm young, like I'm 30 and my body is still pretty healthy. So I don't want to bother with it right now. I feel more like I'm inside my prime and I want to keep going. And when I will start to feel my body saying, hey, you're a bit tired, that's when I will switch to more slow activity.
00:49:38
Speaker
But I think it's going to be in five years. I feel my body, what it took last five years. And I'm like, yeah, probably in the next five years is when we say bye-bye and, you know, go do some other shit.
00:49:56
Speaker
Have you ever thought while you were on on your crypto journey, I guess, like while you were in crypto and trading and doing all this stuff about giving up?
Maintaining an Edge and Future Speculations
00:50:04
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Has there ever been a moment where it's like, oh, shit, don't want to do this anymore? Yeah, every fucking Crypto trading is so hard. Finding an edge and developing an edge or even keeping an edge is so competitive.
00:50:20
Speaker
So, yeah, every day. Literally every day. There is only a few days where I was like, yeah, okay, I need to keep going. And I think those few days were like Arbitrum airdrop, Hyperliquid airdrop,
00:50:34
Speaker
some few days with good options, some few days with nice spam, but no, most of the time I'm more about, yeah I want to go out and do something less stressful to me.
00:50:46
Speaker
oh But yeah, mean, we share a for the love of the game also, like it's a bit like a fucking Latina, you know, she's going to be annoying, but you know, she gives the best bet, right? That's a good analogy.
00:50:58
Speaker
i mean, I get what you mean. It makes you want to fucking stop sometimes. That's how crypto is. Yeah, sometimes it makes you really just want to to stop using the internet and never go back, but also I couldn't really imagine doing anything else, I think. Yeah, exactly.
00:51:14
Speaker
I enjoy a lot CT and how I shitpost and stuff. That's something really a part of my day, which I didn't expect. ah But it's really fun part of my day when I you wake up and I just go shitpost on Twitter, you know, with my my friend inside my computer, you know?
00:51:33
Speaker
Yeah. That's really fun. Yeah. Yeah, me too. I really love shitposting on Twitter, as many people can can tell, I guess. But it's just a very fun fun part to like put some of your stupid thoughts somewhere out there and then people interact with it and share memes or whatever. Yeah, exactly.
00:51:51
Speaker
Maybe learn something even maybe make new friends. And because there is not this physical barrier like in real life, you don't have somebody looking at you like, bro, you're a retard, you know? yeah i mean i guess sometimes people do if they like comment something stupid on their posts or something but then it's just like it doesn't really matter it's just the internet you don't have to care about that you can just like move on and be fine yeah i care a way less i use it's used to annoy me when somebody was disagreeing with me very early on and then i was like brother when i shut down my pc you don't even exist anymore i share yeah pretty much so what are you like busy with nowadays like what is like your main thing that you currently do and that you are focused on right now um i'll go trading still a lot i keep every day trying to research and refine my edge
00:52:47
Speaker
I recently have started a group of searching and basically how to code algo, how to automate stuff. It's taken me a lot of time because it's not simple to explain to other people, even if you understand the concept. That doesn't mean you can reapply it to other people.
00:53:05
Speaker
ah A lot of time at home, I keep renovating one of my house so the weekend I'm a bit more abusive. yeah And just enjoying, you know, like I try to spend spend more time on whatever feels right, whether it's calling mom, dad, sister, my uncle, my aunt, my cousin, whether it's spending time with wife or with the cat, you know, like probably after this discussion, I'm just going to see the cat and... what you to
00:53:40
Speaker
But yeah, most of my day in crypto is trying to interact with people who provide me value, basically. or sheet post and trying to keep refining how to get better at this edge. Even if that 0.01% profit for a day more, I don't give a fuck. I will keep grinding because yeah automated stuff a bit saved me in terms of the stress I was having every day. So I want to keep doing that.
00:54:10
Speaker
It's working and I'm very happy about it. So yeah, keep working on that every day. Yeah, that makes sense. ah That makes a lot of ah lot of sense, actually.
00:54:22
Speaker
I recommend extended also, but it doesn't take me that much time because ah the team is very stuck, right? like They are good already without me. So it's more me coming from time to time and say, OK, let me give a check. Let me see what people think.
00:54:38
Speaker
So yeah, it doesn't take me that much time, thanks to the team already. be good you know so you mainly just go and give some some input from time to time when you think like hey this is something that should be done differently or this is something that you have expertise on where you think you can provide some value yeah exactly yeah early on it was a bit more like it was an everyday thing because product was good but it's need to be refined for a trader And little by little they improve it. They even listen to community because community talk more than even me. So, you know, I'm like, yes, this should be done. This shouldn't be done. Yada, yada. you go on and you improve. yeah
00:55:21
Speaker
But it's it's taken me way less time than it was like two months ago. When I joined YET was very active every day and then got better, better, better, better. So, yeah.
00:55:32
Speaker
would Would you like to do more advisory stuff in the future or is it just like a one-time thing where you saw a good opportunity and something we wanted to do? It really depends on the project because what what got me at extended. So initially they didn't even ask me, they just contact me, they present the product and they were like, Hey, we will like if you can give a try and give us feedback. And when I hear about Unify Margin, I was like, okay, we do that shit and we do BitMEX again because I love this idea of CoinMargin.
00:56:04
Speaker
So I propose them to be advisor for them, to advise them on the trading project. and But it's really dependent. If somebody came at me and say, do you want to be our advisor? I'm going to say no, if they cannot say exactly why i should be an advisor right for me i just like is the technical part i don't want to do marketing i don't give a shit about your marketing if your product is good i shouldn't even exist as a marketing person yeah people are not really gonna go at it yeah so it's really depend how people approach me and what is the real value if i smell for ah one single seconds just want to extract yeah no that's a hard pass like
00:56:45
Speaker
I did that mistake one time with STFX where I don't realize so what I did was to extract. And so now I don't open myself anymore. But yeah I mean, there is still some to my respect, like if Azzy ever come at me and say, yo, we need you for that. Sure. I mean, I always use in Silico Terminal since 2021. I was probably in the first 50 or 100 user. am a lot.
00:57:12
Speaker
ah extended I respect them if you pair liquids at the same if they ever asked me yo you want to come yeah no even question ask it because I know I align with the values I provide but yeah it's a very picky selective thing like if you want to extract yeah don't give you a chance if I feel like you want to try something in news even if you fail that's gonna be fine I'm gonna be sure and we're gonna try that shit Do you still use the terminal a lot since you've been a big user in the past?
00:57:47
Speaker
but But because you focus more on on algorithmic stuff nowadays? uh when i'm not at home yes because i don't take my ssh log when i go out so for example but i was on vacation uh three weeks uh at brettagne which is a part of france a department and one week at can i was using terminal during that period because i wasn't having to my execution especially for chase which is i mean as you already know it how much i pray chase like it's been here praise actually yeah
00:58:22
Speaker
i have another question um what do you think like in a year how do you see the the sex and dex landscape being like do you think hyperliquid will take more market share from from centralized exchanges that will keep going up or do you see extended playing how do you see them playing into that for example ah no so you mean how's a new dex competition gonna came against super liquid right i mean like in one way like other DEXs against Hyperliquid, but then also Hyperliquid and DEXs as a whole against centralized exchanges.
00:58:58
Speaker
but i mean, I think Hyperliquid already did good. Even if they stabilize here for the next five years, it's not that bad because it's already a huge part of the case.
00:59:09
Speaker
Naturally, if regulation keep hammering in term of each country saying, no, we don't want Binance, Bybit anymore, naturally people are going to go on Hyperliquid, right? Because they still want to trade.
00:59:22
Speaker
Uh...
00:59:25
Speaker
I don't really these think so far extended. I don't know for other, but for extended, we're not really a competition to hyperliquid because our ideas unify margin. So our competition is by bit, which is only other who provide unified margin.
00:59:39
Speaker
Like even if the product is a perp and vault for a now, that doesn't mean we want to place ourselves against hyperliquid. ah Lighter is more close to hyperliquid, I will say. But the thing is lighter, it's very I'm not going to share my opinion on it, but I think once the point program is over, it's back to VC type of stuff, so no thanks.
01:00:05
Speaker
But no, I think Hyperliquid is fine, but if regulation keep hammering outside of USA, Hyperliquid going to keep hitting and hitting and hitting and hitting. And the fee is decent also.
01:00:19
Speaker
Binance is going to ask me almost twice as much fee as Hyperliquid and a KYC. and hyperliquid liquidity is very good. So why the faculty issues Binance over hyperliquid, right? Yeah.
01:00:32
Speaker
I think the fees are are very good, actually, even without the higher tiers of volume or without staking or anything like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's zero point. It's 15.
01:00:45
Speaker
It's 45 and 15, which is insane. Like Binance is at 50 and 20, think. And you asked me a kawaii, I said, come on.
01:00:58
Speaker
Yeah, um I think this is a good point to to stop for now. I think we had a nice conversation. yeah Is there anything else that you want to share to say to people to check out or whatever?
01:01:10
Speaker
Yeah, check out InSilico Terminal, the best terminal in the West. And yeah, no, overall, make sure you you don't rush stuff. It's fine to take time. It's like you want to make sure you win. In 10 years, you're going to be a definitive winner, not in one year, you're going to be a winner. And the next year, you're going to be a loser, right? like Take your time and have fun.
01:01:37
Speaker
And make sure use your time for Berlin.
01:01:42
Speaker
Yeah, it might be counter-intuitive advice, but it makes lot of sense. It's like it's a long run anyway. like It doesn't matter if you do it today, tomorrow or in one year.
01:01:56
Speaker
What is important is you make sure once you make it, you keep it, right? yeah that is true as well many people don't keep it and even if you look at us like or many people that we know we've been here for years many people that i know that are successful have been here for years and sometimes good things just take time yeah yeah so it makes like sense to stick through it i think that's good advice yep one of the rare time i say good shit and we're back to retarded after I think you've said some some decent things today. I think that was good.
01:02:30
Speaker
Well, thank you very much for being here. yeah thank you for having me. Thank you for for talking and goodbye. Yeah, bye-bye.