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Insilico Terminal Podcast Episode 16 - Denis, CEO of Insilico Terminal
59 Plays3 days ago
In this episode, we trace the path from the early Insilico days to becoming CEO - from building exchange integrations as a developer to overseeing operations, legal, and team management. We discuss a shift in trading style toward spot positioning with perps used mainly for hedging, the engineering standards behind Insilico’s reliability, and why the team avoids AI-written code. The conversation covers major 2025 milestones, including a rebrand, podcast launch, a new Go + JavaScript execution engine that enables offline algos, and the evolution toward complex order baskets. We also explore prediction markets, Smart Hedge tooling, advanced order types like VWAPs and Icebergs, and the long-term vision of bringing institutional-grade execution to mobile.
00:00 Path to crypto, Early Insilico days, joining as a developer, building exchange integrations
06:27 Trading today, focusing on spot positions and using perps mainly for hedging instead of active day trading
09:12 Becoming CEO, transitioning from lead developer to managing exchanges, legal, payroll and operations
11:58 Engineering standards, no AI code policy, manual development and heavy testing for reliability
14:55 2025 milestones, rebrand, podcast launch, complex order baskets and product evolution
22:50 New execution engine, Go + JavaScript backend enabling offline algos without keeping the terminal open
32:15 Prediction markets and Smart Hedge, correlation matrices, Greeks-style logic and risk tooling
44:12 Advanced order types, VWAPs, Icebergs and institutional-grade execution
01:01:06 Mobile vision and closing, bringing full execution power to mobile and wrapping up
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome
Introduction to Dennis
00:00:13
Speaker
to a new episode of the InSilico Terminal podcast. Today i have with me our dear CEO and glorious leader, Dennis. Actually, I don't really know what how to how to do this now because like usually i ask the people, how how do you like introduce yourself?
00:00:32
Speaker
I mean, I'm not i'm not sure he does, to be honest. like i'm just denis you know I've been here for a while now. I guess most people that are going to be listening to the chat know me from CT and whatnot.
00:00:44
Speaker
I just mainly write code and kind of make sure that you know the terminal operations are running smoothly. So yeah, that's mainly me, I guess.
Entry into Crypto: A Scam Story
00:00:55
Speaker
Maybe we can talk a bit of whole, the story, how you got to to be, to to start working at the terminal, how you became CEO, stuff like that. Yeah, I mean, I've been i've been on CT for quite some time. I think my account is from 2017 and whatnot. um I got into crypto because I got scammed by some weird-ass Bulgarian crypto scam or something like that.
00:01:17
Speaker
And was like really wondering like, yo, what the fuck is this crypto all about? And I kind of joined for a bunch of stuff. And um I was just like following Trip on Twitter and ah what's his name, Jim as well. And I was like in some thread longs set so at the time and they were like kind of making fun that he's going to be like all of a cliff and whatnot. And I kind of posed my short, like, yeah, let me just follow Trip to see like what's he on about. And but after a couple of months or so, I kind of seen that they have like his business, the terminal and whatnot. I've seen Azid, his account that he was managing everything.
00:01:52
Speaker
And I give him a follow. Um, I was working as a developer at some startups in Dubai back then. And, um, you know, uh, They just posted on Twitter radio, we're hiring.
00:02:05
Speaker
And I was like, you that's my fucking chance to kind of, you know, remain in the industry and also do something that's like more my alleyway. Cause I was, I was kind of young back then. i didn't know how to train, i understand markets. I didn't know ah what all of these perps are like, well, the math behind is like nothing basic. I didn't know how exchanges work, like how most of crypto works and whatnot. So just, let me just, ah ah you know, um see if see for ah if I'm a fit, but you know, thankfully for the most part,
00:02:32
Speaker
ah Initially, by then, most of the terminal workload was, you know, take this exchange, integrate it, you know, it's got like this ah API behind it, just read the docs, send some payloads to the exchange, and that's it. That was before we kind of did the, you know, complex order forms, all ah all of this like super complex weird shit that's like right now in the terminal.
00:02:53
Speaker
And I remember there were like quite some people that applied for the job, but like I told Ozzy that I don't want to be stuck forever writing, you know, like simple Excel wrappers around like my entire tech career. So he kind of like took a liking to me, I guess, and said, like you know what? Yeah, if I could take the job.
00:03:10
Speaker
And, you know, I've been i been productive since day one on the codebase. Like, i'm I'm just, you know, just like that. I'm him, basically. So, yeah, it was fun. They kept throwing more shit at me.
00:03:21
Speaker
And I kept, like, making it every single fucking time, man. But it was was quite stressful in the beginning because, you know, I didn't know much shit. But, you know, I kind of grew up around the ecosystem. And I know the ins and outs of, like, why the Turner behaves in a certain way.
00:03:37
Speaker
And then we started hiring more
Career Progression to CEO
00:03:39
Speaker
people and more people. And as you obviously said, Dennis, you're going to be fucking managing everything now. Congrats. And yeah, I've been managing the client side. Then I started managing the backend side as well.
00:03:51
Speaker
And, you know, so slowly I got into kind of ah finding out, you know, new prospects about hiring, doing the interviews. And slowly worked my way up to ah the top. I mean, ah the the team was kind of like ah slim in the beginning, just me, Azzy, Danny on the infrastructure side, Nick as well on the backend. And obviously, as we onboarded new people, Azzy being like the fucking mad developer, he's his time is like much better spent writing code than managing everybody else.
00:04:21
Speaker
i was like, yeah, I can. I can just like show them the ropes around and whatnot. So that became kind of my full-time job alongside writing all of this code. ah Were you not like intimidated by ah like your lack of, of as you said, trading knowledge in the beginning to work on a software that like requires quite intricate knowledge? I mean, I was. I mean i still am sometimes. is like We get these new weird... mean, each exchange has like their own implementation, but like but when it's a clean slate and you don't anything, you kind of ah expect of yourself to kind of know everything. but ah just like it's not going to happen. like You're never going to know anything because everything. goes
00:04:57
Speaker
everybody has like a different implement implementation of it and at the end of the just like make it work. i I think everybody gets like imposter syndrome at some point but like i don't think that there's like a perfect developer or like a perfect man or like a perfect trader like any perfect type of like archetype that is going to be like perform ah exceptionally at first.
00:05:21
Speaker
You just have to work your way through it. But like, I got like a lot of cold reviews and a lot of chatting about the ins and outs of exchanges with Azi, with, you know, ah other higher ah experienced developers. And, you know, it just, it becomes second nature after a while.
00:05:43
Speaker
I'm curious, like how how much of the terminal would you say is now made by you? Oh, have that. I have that. Because you've been here like for quite a while now and like I have stats, yeah. um That's why I don't allow other developers to kind of use autoformatters, mostly because it's going to fuck up my stats and I'm really proud of the amount of code I put in.
00:06:07
Speaker
So I really don't want them to just like, oh, I autoformatted files to just like 5,000 lines. Yeah. Yeah. yeah um
00:06:21
Speaker
But like it's a fair amount of um per month code. I think it certainly has like more than a million lives of code at this point across all the repos. And yeah. Let me see.
00:06:40
Speaker
So, insights. and Contributors.
00:06:48
Speaker
So I've contributed with a total of but roughly 300,000 lines of code. 265,000. Azzy has 315,000. it's quite caught yet. I mean... aszi has three hundred and fifteen thousand um not quite caught up yet yeah but i mean As you kind of wrote the first version is like the core stuff and we just keep adding and merging and doing stuff on top of it.
00:07:12
Speaker
Kherik is also like quite high. Kherik has like 160,000 lines added and 270,000 lines But it's also like a lot of, you know, boilerplate or like config files that that are like pre-generated and whatnot is not like an extremely accurate depiction of like how much you've contributed generally.
00:07:33
Speaker
Yeah. It also depends on like the style of development because usually what I used to do beforehand is just like i would make like two or three commits on a feature that has like a thousand changes like you know and Ozzy would just like to commit every single line of change that he does. Obviously it's a gross ah misrepresentation but generally he's done like a lot of commits like larger commits because that's how I kind of like to do it.
00:07:57
Speaker
You can check everything I'm working on but like it kind of depends on the style.
00:08:04
Speaker
I see. Interesting insights into like the... Yeah, and this is just like one it's one um of our reports. We have like 15 repos that are kind of like microservices that are working together. Yeah.
00:08:16
Speaker
I think, like, ah do you do you still you do trade? ah feel like we should talk a bit about your trading before we, like, lose everyone here that doesn't care about anything. Yeah, i mean...
Trading Strategies
00:08:25
Speaker
shit such Yeah, no, it makes sense. I mean, I'm not necessarily, like, a day trader. I don't trade that much. Mostly because I kind of have to manage the operations. And trading is, like, quite extensive. Like, you have to pay attention to what's happening. Obviously, when markets are on, you kind of set...
00:08:43
Speaker
um alerts and whatnot to kind of like, yo, it's like an area of interest of mine. Let me just trade it I used to trade ah more or more actively in the past couple of months or so.
00:08:56
Speaker
But generally, my trading revolves around like buying spot, a selling spot, and, you know, i just hedging with perps sometimes. That's all.
00:09:07
Speaker
So you don't really have any fancy strategies where just like... No, I mean... Not really, to be honest, like that I don't do any complex orders in that regard. of and No, not much.
00:09:22
Speaker
I mean, I kind of collected a bunch of knowledge in sense that lot of like stuff I want to kind of read and integrate in my trading and whatnot, but I don't have the time to be honest, to kind of properly sit down and study for, you know, extensive periods of time, like two, three, five weeks, six months, you know, months at time to kind of, you know, quickly
00:09:45
Speaker
Did you break up? I just got the phone call. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're back. You're back.
00:09:55
Speaker
um yeah so what is it like to be oh you want to be one for your shed yeah know i was just like i was just tripping up it's just like um obviously i know i'm not like uh an extremely smart or sophisticated perps trader in the sense that i know how markets are going to behave or like properly position myself i don't analyze like macro movements in the sense that oh i check xo with all of the exchanges see where the markets are moving or whatnot I would do it. I'm not doing it. So I don't really have any specific trading sites. I mean, because I kind of develop all like the terminal development version is always on my screen. I kind of see where, when prices are like, you know, it's obviously skewed. I can just take a longer, short year and whatnot.
00:10:37
Speaker
But it's it's not like my main source of income, so to say.
00:10:43
Speaker
I mean, I guess if you if you know how to develop everything in the terminal, it's like, you know, enough about trading for someone that doesn't do it as like his full time thing or doesn't really like spend that much time on it.
00:10:56
Speaker
Yeah, you can say that, I guess.
00:11:00
Speaker
I'm curious, what what has like changed since you became the CEO, which has been like not that like quite recent still for now? I think i mean it is sort of recent. I think mostly what changed is that now I have to kind of keep the relations with all the exchanges, with the BDs, with partners.
00:11:17
Speaker
going to make sure that everything's nice and stable. Chat with our VIP traders. We have channels, all of their concerns. Make they don't wait in
00:11:28
Speaker
don't wait in plan for responses because obviously ah we are mostly oriented towards whales and sophisticated people. They like a certain type of service. You kind of have to take care of them.
00:11:41
Speaker
um and It's became mostly my job to do so. Obviously, in new exchange integrations, I
CEO Responsibilities
00:11:47
Speaker
kind of have to kind of deal with all of the new onboarding processes, contracts, documents.
00:11:52
Speaker
But it's a lot of bureaucracy that I didn't know it was so, do you say,
00:12:03
Speaker
I didn't expect it to be this much paperwork, but it's an insane amount of paperwork. And you have to check with legal, you have to check with all of these other areas of a normal business, payroll, whatnot.
00:12:16
Speaker
Speaking of like strategy, where where does the product go, which are good ideas, which are bad ideas, ah you know, make sure people kind of have something to work on that nobody's slacking. um because You have to iterate over everything. It's like, but you know, thankfully we've got like a properly nice team that is actually also pushing out All right code, correct code, doesn't break as much as I'd expect it to.
00:12:42
Speaker
ah Our QA department is doing an amazing job. Because, you know, we don't we don't really allow any AI code to kind of go through. i I just, you know, if it's slower, just be slower, but like make sure it's correct. We don't do any automated testing because like it's really hard to kind of create all of these ah scenarios that generally a trader would do. So we kind of test everything manually in-house. That's why we have tested this. We have, you know, data programs and all that stuff that we have to make sure that, you know, there's like a conscious observer that verifies everything that goes to production.
00:13:19
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Would you, ah how do you think about, like, I think the paperwork and all of that stuff sounds like the most annoying to me personally. I'm very glad I don't really have to deal that much with stuff like that in what I do.
00:13:33
Speaker
But I recently actually thought, um without like doxing you or anything, but like we're like similar, in a similar age range. um And I thought it's actually kind of impressive that you deal with all the responsibilities of being like the CEO. Because if I like, I do i do my job and it's like, of course I want to do a good job. and like If I like fuck up, then it doesn't,
00:13:55
Speaker
It's not the end of the world or whatever, but like how do you deal with like the the added responsibility of like being there for people's jobs and and the future of the company and all of that stuff?
00:14:06
Speaker
I mean, it is like a lot of stress, to be honest. You have to make sure that you know we are like the treasury is properly managed. We have like a proper runway.
00:14:17
Speaker
we don't run out of money. ah Us being free, we kind of rely on user activity to kind of you know trade for exchanges and on the exchanges base to kind of make sure that you know the operations are all right.
00:14:30
Speaker
ah That's like one thing that people should understand about Hyperliquid. We don't want to charge the Build FPD, but as long as you guys, you know, the users want new features on Hyperliquid, want stuff like that, something has to kind of like provide the development towards you.
00:14:43
Speaker
We've invested a lot of stuff in the in terms of research and development and infrastructure and whatnot for getting the hyperliquid number code up.
00:14:55
Speaker
ah You know, that's why we have one of the fastest order books amongst the terminals. I'm not sure who else has died, but yeah, it's always extremely tough to kind of manage the risks and the decisions I kind of make in sense of like, yeah, we're going to do this. No, we're not going to do that.
00:15:12
Speaker
Because it's, it's i don't know. um I also come from a family of entrepreneurs, generally speaking. So we are not extremely, how do say, we take a lot of risk. Like, ah it is what it at the end of the day. I'm going to do the best job I can.
00:15:26
Speaker
ah That's why we consult with legal. That's why we kind of research all of the stuff that we do to kind of make sure it's all, you know, all right. And it's like safe. And yeah, I think since I came as CEO, stuff has been slowing down a little little bit in terms of,
00:15:43
Speaker
development, but that's mostly an okay thing because the things that we kind of have in the reps for the future of the terminal are like it's extremely important that we don't fuck that up.
00:15:53
Speaker
You know, hopefully by the time this podcast is out, you know, the news is going to be out. I'm talking mostly about the new execution engine that's going to allow us to execute algos without the user being present on the website.
00:16:06
Speaker
And, you know, that engine has been, help we have invested like quite a lot of money and time in it. It's been under development for a couple of months. And as soon as that's ah as soon as that's out, we're going to finally be able to kind of ah make some nice mobile apps, something that we've been liking if you take a look at the top builders on Hyperliquid. Everybody has mobile app. We don't mostly because we aren't relying on Hyperlevis engine to run the T-webs or chases or anything like that. It's all built in house. And, ah you know, now we're just going to be able to have it on our own and just develop all of this new crazy stuff.
Future Developments: Execution Engine
00:16:43
Speaker
oh I think we we're just also going to add a Telegram bot as well to kind of view positions and give you information about your current exposure, positions, orders. um We can also set alerts to kind of view like price alerts or like also indicator alerts, whatever you kind of want.
00:17:00
Speaker
and And yeah, tie that to the execution, mobile apps. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be awesome.
00:17:07
Speaker
Yeah. i think many, many of the people, many of our users are really looking forward to that as I am myself. I feel like maybe that's actually a good ah thing to to talk about. we could like review a bit what we did so far this year.
00:17:22
Speaker
And then we can talk a bit more about the Begg and Algo stuff and then maybe about what we're going to do in the future. I was really bored of it just that I remember most the stuff that we've done this year. I know people kind of have like a mental model of what they've worked on. but like you know it's There's so much stuff that we're constantly working on.
00:17:40
Speaker
you know Even the new stuff was done. couple of weeks ago we just kept doing get it i thought it was at least wasn't at least uh you know it's just like i don't know do you have a list of things we've kind of launched because there's a lot of like small is a hero i honestly don't i honestly hope that like we would figure it out again i mean we've done the all like piece all of us would like you auto based stuff complex order form um what else yeah the complex order is like a huge thing what else should we do ah some updates in the position closer stuff running multiple chaser at the same time it was kind of like last December but can also be
00:18:21
Speaker
this year as well all sorts of like small stuff that improves the quality of life did a lot small stuff I don't think we've done a new exchange integration so that's those are planned for January and February next year
00:18:38
Speaker
I think development this year has been like a little bit slower, or I guess like not that many like huge new features. I guess like, I mean, we did the complex orders, which is like a very huge thing, which allowed you to like create baskets and trade those all at the same time. And now yesterday we got the news feature, which I also think is pretty huge. We've also won the rebrand this year, actually, which is was...
00:18:58
Speaker
Oh yeah, the yes, yes, yes, yes. I swear it must have been like something big. Yeah, I mean, now you have to understand like, it wasn't launched a year ago like two years ago. it was launched like four years ago. And, you know, you have to keep up with the tech with the underlying tech as well.
00:19:12
Speaker
We had do some framework upgrades and those are like extremely painful to do because you touch it. Yeah, right. Everything that you do. on the back end and on the front end as well. And um there's a lot of people that have been asking for new orthotypes, which are under development.
00:19:26
Speaker
But again, we are launching this new engine and I kind of decided to kind of eat shit for a couple of months and not release any new orthotypes because I don't want to integrate an orthotype for an old engine and then have to kind of rewrite the same code for the new engine as well. So then I have to be smart about like, you know, keep the resist engaged with like new features.
00:19:44
Speaker
you know, like, small stuff like, you know, AutoTP, you know, complex, whatever, like, a big thing, but ah generally, you kind of have to make, like, weigh, like, okay, what's actually needed and what's actually smarter to develop later down the line, right? So, um yeah, yeah. it's it's It's a lot of stuff that you're working on at the same time.
00:20:06
Speaker
And, you know, from our chats, there's like some other stuff that I can't really disclose right now because I just want to make sure that the beta is ready for it. But they're like, there's like a lot of new directions in which the terminal is going and they're all going to be available like next year. bit
00:20:21
Speaker
Yeah, remember like um with the rebrand stuff and all of that, how like it's kind of difficult if you have a huge new change and then you want to like add other stuff during the way as well. But you always have to have to keep in mind that there's like this huge thing that is coming.
00:20:36
Speaker
And if you like add too many other things during it, then you kind of like like you need to to kind of postpone everything just so so that you can release a huge thing at once and then you you can just keep going again with like smaller changes. Yeah and every small change that you make in the old version is going to like tickle down in conflicts in the new version and it's just going to slow down even worse progress that you're doing so you kind of have to pick up battles when it comes to software development.
00:21:04
Speaker
i know I've been working on software for such a long time and I don't really mind all of these road walks that we kind of make for ourselves. But ah if you haven't ah built any software before and you just think, oh yeah, i just like at the bottom on the screen, like how difficult can that be? Like, well, it's, there's like so much shit that has to go into kind of ah figure out and make sure that it doesn't break anything else, ah that it works uniformly across all exchanges. The more exchanges we add, the slower we're going to be mostly because you have to kind of keep the feature set up to par with all these exchanges.
The Podcast as a Community Feature
00:21:40
Speaker
I mean, what one one more thing that we launched this year is also the podcast, I guess, which is not really a feature, but it's still like ah an additional thing for the... for Yeah, I'm really glad about podcasts. Like, there's a lot of neutrals on City and they come and talk about their trading. I hope our, you know, listeners have like taken something from it. You know, I really like the Scott Phillips one.
00:22:02
Speaker
It was like amazing insight in like the game they've done. Yeah, me too. um So yeah, I'm really looking forward to the next guests. I hope you're not going to be running out of guests.
00:22:14
Speaker
It'd be awesome to have Sam FTX directly from prison. I mean, who knows? Who knows? Maybe he would get the the pardon or whatever, or we're going to do like the prison phone call.
00:22:27
Speaker
just don't know something like that. I don't think we're going to run out of guests anytime soon. I got a lot of good ones for it. I'm very excited actually myself for like next year and we're going to get on without like glazing myself or whatever it's all about. It's just fun to do. So it's like I'm i'm happy if I can do it more.
00:22:42
Speaker
And if people like it, then it's even better. Yeah, I mean, um yeah, but the rebrand was like a huge thing. That was like the biggest change that we made this year I think like there were some people i feel with changes, always people were like hated at the beginning.
00:22:56
Speaker
But then like i I honestly kind of forgot what the old UI even looked like at this point. And I really like like in the ei like I'm very happy that we did all of that. And it's just like, yeah, likewise, I mean, we had some users that requested that we put up the old version as well, but there were like some really big changes between the framework upgrades that I mentioned. And, you know, it just, it just didn't work, man. It just like, it didn't work out. Like I can't spin up the old version mostly because the authentication is going to be an issue.
00:23:22
Speaker
So, you know, to all of our users that are kind of want the old one, I'm sorry. I just can't put it up. I can't be merging so many versions of the same software. At the same time, we are still like a slim team. I think we have a total of like 12 developers.
00:23:41
Speaker
And yeah, I think that's all. So you kind have to be smart with the resources. And I also don't want to be expanding the team. Take some time for people to be productive on the code base. As I've said, there's like millions of lines of code.
00:23:53
Speaker
And it's just like, I don't want to be babysitting anyone at the moment. I just want to go and... you ah attack the new challenges that we've kind of created for ourselves. But i think I think hopefully by the end of Q1 and Q2, most of the stuff that we have under wraps is going to be finished. And then we can finally start expanding our order types again. It's going to be, we're going to have like VWAPs, authors of like complex.
00:24:20
Speaker
ah new key webs, chases, iceberg orders, all of the fun stuff that um you don't get as natively on exchanges. Some exchanges have kind of caught up to us and implemented their own versions of these order types. And for example, Bybit already has icebergs and whatnot, and we don't support them.
00:24:36
Speaker
ah Mostly because we want to build our own icebergs and whatnot. I think that'd be much more much more interesting than just plugging into an exchange and just letting them do all the hard work.
00:24:49
Speaker
Will the new order types be the main focus for like the beginning of the year, except from like maybe exchanges, exchange integrations? um I think so. So the new engine obviously takes has went through a lot of Q&A and a lot of testing, and we're not going to be launching it for all of the existing exchanges, mostly because some of these exchanges, we there's like not there's simply very few people trading on it and I don't think the demand is going as much so we cannot focus on Bybit and how to look at initially because that's ah where most people like trade Binance is a special case there's a lot of Binance users as well but like you know it's Binance they like to change their API and do like crazy stuff so that's going to be a little bit later down the line
00:25:37
Speaker
So as as soon as we have as soon as we have like a production stable ready version of the backend Argos, um our backend link is going to be focusing on adding the new order types that I've mentioned, because those have been heavily requested. And at the same time, I think our second biggest focus is going to be mobile apps. like We're going to try and create new user experience on mobile that most of these apps don't have. They're all extremely simple trading apps.
00:26:07
Speaker
ah You can't really do as much as i would personally like to do on them. And ah yeah we have to do a lot of research in terms of like, how do you present like on a small interface, this like best amount of complex orders that we have.
00:26:23
Speaker
It's going to be a challenge. It's going to be insanely difficult in some parts, but I think i think we have the the right to kind of attack and innovate in the mobile trading area space.
00:26:38
Speaker
Yeah, I'm definitely really looking forward to that. I think mobile is a good way to expand and it's also just nice to... Because the terminal allows you to like have all of your exchange accounts at once without even needing like the app or whatever.
00:26:51
Speaker
So it would be nice even to just like look at it more and while you're outside or whatever and don't have access to your PC. Yeah, for sure. um And, you know, of having a native mobile app on a mobile device is going to allow us to, you know, to push information about these trading accounts much, much better um compared to like, you know, we currently have a website. If it's closed, you can't get any insights on what's happening through the webinar.
00:27:20
Speaker
But like as soon as we have a mobile app and a backend engine, then you know it's always going to be there with you. And it's going to be much, much easier to kind of react to market movements and to react to your account getting liquidated, for example, and stuff like that. It's going to be much, much, much easier.
Expansion into Mobile Apps
00:27:38
Speaker
And you know we've been thinking about this move for quite some time. And I'm really, really glad that we're nearing the inception of dominating the mobile trading space.
00:27:52
Speaker
I think we should definitely may like make explicit as well how how big like the backend algo change will be because like right now you just have to have the terminal open at all times to do anything. like If you have a TWOP or whatever, you you always need to have it open so it can be executed. But that change will allow you to like run any order type and anything that you want while not having the terminal open itself. Oh yeah. One and even like the one feature present or whatever yeah one feature of the backend algo that we haven't mentioned is the ability to set triggers.
00:28:21
Speaker
So what that basically is going to allow you is generally if you want to set a T-WEP right now, you just go on a T-WEP on Hippilypeat and they' just they're just going to run it for you. or like even a stop market order, like a limit order, you're just going to have to post them onto the exchange where, you know, everybody can can see the order.
00:28:38
Speaker
But our new engine is going to allow you to post orders with us and they're going to get triggered um by a certain condition, whether if a certain volume gets hit or if like a price gets hit or like ah time expiration stuff.
00:28:51
Speaker
And it's all of these like complex order that you're used to. For example, you know, when Bitcoin crosses, you know, 90,000, start to chase sta a chase ah long or whatever, something that most of these dating apps don't have, mostly because the infrastructure required for it is like, is insane. Generally, our app is written in JavaScript.
00:29:12
Speaker
But for the sake of speed performance and all of the fancy words of like a properly reliable and, you know, highly availability software, we've kind of introduced some Go as well, mostly because it's like, can it can do some stuff faster than JavaScript.
00:29:28
Speaker
So. Yeah, I think offline triggers are going to be like a really, really big hit. Mostly because you can pair them with liquidations as well. For example, you if there's like hundred million dollar market liquidation in the past five minutes, so ill start chasing me, you know, and these are these are like dynamics that- Damn, it's huge. Yeah. And imagine that being available on like a nice mobile app that's gonna be fucking dope yeah but even even on desktop that's like already kind of insane like many people have always asked for for conditions triggers these like more advanced things and you will basically be able to do it just like everything that you
00:30:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's really difficult to kind of make that in a easily digestible format for the users to kind of use and see and understand, you know, intuitively yeah what the UI is telling me, what what's going to happen.
00:30:21
Speaker
Oh, and like a nice thing as well is that um you can ah do ratios. For example, if BTC Sol is at a certain whatever number, you're gonna able to land a trigger based on like all sorts of like these complex triggers between ah different assets.
00:30:40
Speaker
So yeah. Kudos to Kai and Braden for working hard on the pitcher. I kind of wanted to work on it, but sadly my new position has requested my attention like different areas of the business and really, really glad that we kind of left them with them. They have like a strong back-end experience, so.
00:30:58
Speaker
It's going to be tight. It's going to be tight. Yeah, I can't wait until I'm able to use all of that myself or until it's properly out in production. Of course, we have to do a lot of testing and whatever because with user funds and whatever on the line, we need to make sure that the quality is Yeah, or which is maybe like also a thing that it's sometimes like slow song because people always ask for so much stuff like they want this, they want that exchange, they want this feature, whatever. But it's also like even with the complexity that you talked about earlier, but we also need to make sure that it's like everything is working properly up to our standards, which are very high and have always been very high.
00:31:34
Speaker
in the past, which with all our our uptime and and everything working well, and it needs to be like that forever. so Because I don't want to use lose money because the terminal fucked up as ah as a user even. And yeah it's very important that we like track that. That's one of the reasons why I kind of also slow down development. I mean, I don't care if I don't push a feature out.
00:31:54
Speaker
It's better that you know the feature is not out, but we are kind of properly testing it. um and yeah Normally in a normal company or like normal a traditional set of like tech companies, ah people just want to like crazy, i yeah just go do things best, break stuff. But like, you know, you reach a point in which you kind of have to kind of weigh the benefits of like being first and the benefits of like maintaining the quality of your software. So I think we kind of reached the point where we do want to kind of maintain the quality, but also the speed. But there's like some...
00:32:27
Speaker
concessions you have to make in order to maintain your status as like, you know, that's a properly better tested software.
00:32:35
Speaker
I mean, we're not really like a social media thing or whatever where you can just like move fast and and break things. Or like we need to do stuff to increase our token price or anything like that. you' just like yeah oh thank but It works so that it keeps working. yeah Public disclosure, we're never launching a token. I don't see the reason to kind of launch a token.
00:32:54
Speaker
There's no reason. There's no point in it. I'll never understand like why somebody would launch token. you just took that I just wanted to make a joke that we're going to launch one, but like you you just so took that away from me like as ah as a Christmas gift to everyone. but Our Christmas gift is that we're never going to launch a token. But you get all of the other nice features, so you should still be happy.
00:33:13
Speaker
Maybe you can like make money from trading and increase your profitability a little bit. That's a nice gift to to give as well. Yeah, i was thinking at some point to kind of launch some tokens, mostly because you have all of these other on-chain meme terminals, you know, and they pick up absolutely any token that kind of gets ah launched on all of these like blockchains.
00:33:36
Speaker
And I was thinking that maybe, maybe I should launch like, you know, a thousand ah tokens at the same time on, you know, Solana through Pum.1. with all called like, trail through in silico underscore one, two, three and whatnot. Because then all of these on-chain meme terminals that auto-crawl all these tokens, they would just get like spammed with all of them, you know, like free advertising.
00:34:02
Speaker
I mean, more or less free, I guess. Yeah, but like it's it's like extremely cheap to launch a token nowadays, isn't it? yeah Have you traded any meme coins? Generally speaking, or are you just like more of a perps trader?
00:34:15
Speaker
I have used PAMP fun before, like like once or twice or something. Like I remember ah back then when Alon was stealing everyone's DMs, like he DMed me as well, like it last year, January, I think.
00:34:27
Speaker
When I first launched, like he just yapped everyone basically. and And then I've looked at it before and I've like shown it to my IRL friends that don't really have anything to do with crypto. But for them, it's like fun to do or whatever.
00:34:41
Speaker
I've made like money once from buying a meme, can but honestly, I kind of hate trading meme coins because like you you love gambling, but I hate gambling. And for me, it's kind of like just buying lottery tickets.
00:34:53
Speaker
So, I don't know. i I mean, you kind of trade attention and you kind of hope that one of these tokens that you're attending will just like pick up into the, you know, general mindshare and then it's just gonna like fly. Yeah, but then it's still, it's still so, it's such a negative sum game, which you can see by now because it's like just overrun by insiders at some point because like if an event happens or like something is there like anyone can just there are like 50 meme coins for just for that event so you never know which one is going to be like the the biggest one or only the one that has like the most amount of of incentivized people behind it that are going to push it and then it's like a different game than what you actually think you're doing because you're not trading just the attention but also like what other people are doing like other participants i mean yeah meme coins are extremely useless you know yeah
00:35:39
Speaker
i don't know, it's just... I've never seen the appeal to it. I like to trade mostly because it was like extremely fun. I did make some money on them, but like it was nothing...
00:35:51
Speaker
life changing or anything like i think most amount of money I've been on a Bitcoin was like 20k uh just like purely like I there was like one main coin is look called like cheese coin or some shit like that I put in like 100 200 bucks and it went up to like 15k and I didn't sell I don't know why didn't fucking sell and not in hindsight seems like obvious to fucking sell but like I was like you know fuck that cheese coin is gonna like so take over the world like yeah I just like having like the illusion at least that I like have control over what I'm doing or at least like in in trading, I mean, you kind of have control over over your risk management and all of that stuff. And I guess you also have that with meme coins, but it's like, it it just feels better when it, when what I'm doing feels a bit more logical than just like buying random shit and hoping it will go up, even though if that's what I'm doing, but it's like, at least I can tell myself like, hey,
00:36:42
Speaker
i'm I'm doing this. Yeah, no, I get it. It's like less of a waste of time. Yeah, I get it. I mean, even with trading perps, you know, um I kind of expect, if you take a look at any given exchange, they have like hundreds of perps, hundreds of perps listed and whatnot.
00:36:59
Speaker
But if you actually take a look at ah HyperTracker or like, any insight into like which assets are mostly traded, it's always like the top three or two that are like taking like 80% of the volume across the market, in my opinion.
00:37:13
Speaker
ah Because I used to trade like, you know, like on perps and whatnot on Hyperluke through the terminal, I used to trade like Farcoin and all of these random ass tokens. And then I kind of looked at HyperTracker and I saw like, wait, actually most of our traders are actually only trading Bitcoin with, you know, perps, Bitcoin, ETH and major ones, which kind of makes sense.
00:37:34
Speaker
But then again, like, why are all these exchanges listing all of these dog trade contracts? I guess they just want to have like some fees for a short period of time, but like volume dies down so easily.
00:37:45
Speaker
It's insane. Insane. and everybody just like fighting for the you know major spawn kind of uh... mindshare i guess often i think maybe maybe we can we can talk about that a bit as well like what what do do you have an opinion on like the future exchange landscape of like I guess centralized exchanges will like fade a little bit in in relevancy, but do you think like decentralized exchanges will take over? Do do we think Hyperliquid will take over everything? Do you think other decentralized exchanges also have a chance?
00:38:22
Speaker
What's your view on that? Well, I kind of think about it.
00:38:27
Speaker
I don't know, I think, you know, I might say something extremely stupid, but like if you are a trader and if you're like a proper, you know, ah serious trader that you take trading seriously, i don't see a problem with you KYC to an exchange.
00:38:45
Speaker
Obviously, you kind of have to make sure that you kind of trust the exchange that you're KYC on and there aren't that many passport exchanges they got there. FTX
Centralized Exchanges and KYC
00:38:55
Speaker
and all that stuff, you never really know which exchange is like fraudulent ah or whatnot.
00:39:01
Speaker
But then you can just kind of look which ones kind of respect compliance the most. um The top new exchanges are somewhat trustworthy, in my opinion. i mean, I'm KYC to like five or six different exchanges and exchanges.
00:39:18
Speaker
I don't really care to be honest, but I do see the appeal in ah having something that's directly on-chain where you can just like move some balance, trade some perps, get your money, fuck off.
00:39:29
Speaker
ah Sure, um why not? But um in terms of tech, I really don't see how tech's perp exchange is ever going to be able to ah compete with a centralized exchange. Mostly because if you're decentralized and you kind of need nodes, you need to push data across the globe on all of these different nodes.
00:39:49
Speaker
That's just going to take some time to kind of propagate information. It's going to be slower. Your quotes are slower. Everything's slower. um I don't know, I haven't really used ah ah lot of ah the other techs that are available. I've used Apex.
00:40:06
Speaker
I've never honestly ah seriously traded on Aster. I kind of give it a try, deposit the money, play it around a little bit. than I've never used Pacifica, never used Extended, never used any of those other exchanges.
00:40:22
Speaker
um know As long as you kind of find a venue that's right for you, you kind of like agree with the fees that you're kind of paying on, and then you know I don't see reason to move around that much, to be honest. Hyperlinked obviously has the first mover advantage, you ask me.
00:40:41
Speaker
ah They were one of the first perp exchanges that actually got a lot of the mind share. The team is actually ah not made up of assholes. They're not just going to nuke their token.
00:40:54
Speaker
I don't want to glaze them or anything, but, you know, it seems that they're, like, being smart about it. They just want to develop their software, push new stuff out, and, you know, ah make sure everything's all right.
00:41:06
Speaker
haven't really looked much into the other... um Yeah, the other product is lighter seems interesting because of the no fee stuff. um i'm I'm really curious to talk with some traders that are actually paying for the higher grade latency, like faster latency and whatnot.
00:41:21
Speaker
I'm just trying to see ah Why aren't they just going with a free one? If you have like an algo trading on your behalf, then sure, the two, 300 millisecond delay is kind of worth to have. But if you're like manually trading, i don't know, man, it's just like maybe my eyes are slow, but like 100, 200, 300 millisecond delay while I press the button, I just don't fucking notice it.
00:41:50
Speaker
don't know. I mean, I guess we'll have to see how. I think it's very interesting what will happen. Or it's like the most interesting thing in crypto right now, like the lighter TGE, especially like in comparison to Hyperliquid as well.
00:42:04
Speaker
um I think the zero fee stuff is kind of interesting, but I kind of prefer like paying fees just because it's like more... ah stable and like understandable for like a stupid person like me that you have like a flat fee that gets like deducted every time instead of like spread which is a bit different and Isn't it the same though? he is it yeah I mean you're still affected by the spread if you pay a half fee like on Vipers I don't think the spread goes away if you pay I mean, I don't want to like talk too bad about it, but like from my own experience, Lighter used to be really good a couple of months ago, but like now it's kind of... ah like People have made posts about that. If you have like the free tier and you you execute, it's very slow.
00:42:52
Speaker
like it's very like If you sculpt shorter timeframes, you definitely notice the delay. um And I think even even with the pay tier, it's like a bit better.
00:43:05
Speaker
But they're still, I don't know, maybe it's like because they have so many increased, like the usage has increased so much. Full disclosure, we are integrating lighter.
00:43:15
Speaker
I haven't personally who worked on the lighter integration. I don't know. I don't think that we're talking bad about them. We're just talking about the general experience of it. um At the end of the day, it's like, it depends on the user where they kind of want to take their like business, whether they want to take on Lighter or whatever.
00:43:32
Speaker
We've always tried to be like, it's agnostic. Like i I'm not going to stop shitting any specific exchange, you know, I mean... Obviously, the market has expanded in so many hubs of volume and liquidity. Like, you have all of this burpleting.
00:43:49
Speaker
some degree, if we are not going to integrate them, all of the volumes, a part of the volume which is going to migrate somewhere or somewhere else. I don't know. ah So, I mean, we're just trying to catch up a little bit.
00:44:00
Speaker
um I don't have, for like, a personal opinion about Lighter it being good or bad. But, you know, I guess that's... I guess we're going to see. I'm really curious how much ah how many users we're going to get once we can art decoration, to be honest.
00:44:15
Speaker
I'm curious as well. I do have to say like one one good thing that their UI from, like I've tried a lot of ah exchanges and their UI without the terminal is like one of the one of the better ones. Obviously, like I will be very happy but once I can use it inside of the terminal. and like know That's for me like proper proper trading and everything else is kind of like Not that nice, but like their UI is definitely like pretty decent for just being like ah and an exchange UI. And I think um
00:44:48
Speaker
Like having, like we we've also always been like agnostic and I think it's good if we just like let people make their own choices and everyone ah has like their their own um preferences as well. Like if you're caring more about the incentives and you will rather trade on the decks, but if you really want to like the the fast latency and whatever, then you will be on a centralized exchange. I'm really curious what's going to happen after all of this farming is going to end.
00:45:13
Speaker
Obviously, yeah. I don't want to like say something bad like most of these exchanges are just getting farmed. um And there is this argument that Hyperliquid after they kind of down the airdrop i was also getting farmed in hopes for like a new airdrop season.
00:45:32
Speaker
um I don't see that way to be honest. um I think volume is kind of like ah in terms of like percentages and you know, whatever.
00:45:43
Speaker
It's still up regardless of whether there's like an error or not. I think people just like trading there, mostly because no KYC and whatnot. But you know, some of these like second tier pervexes, um I'm really curious what's going to happen to them once once it's all, you know, set and done.
00:46:03
Speaker
do you think i guess we see Do you think there's life after Geardrop on most of these exchanges? ah If I speak, I'm in big trouble.
00:46:17
Speaker
Yeah, no, I get it. No more questions than this for the for the sake of our industry. I mean, as as like a point holder in many of them, no, absolutely, like the the the volume will increase and the token will go up. I don't know. I don't think, I mean, I think it's good that we have like different ones and they're like trying to differentiate themselves a little bit. Like they have different collateralization options or whatever, are different speed and different fee models and all of that stuff. And I mean, there is space for different centralized exchanges as well, but I think it's a bit like Hyperliquid will not be recreated in in any way. I don't think so.
00:46:55
Speaker
that that's like possible, like with the token price. Yeah, I mean, price yeah, I mean, that's like my point as well, ah like my belief, not my point, but um I don't know.
Future of Exchange Landscape
00:47:08
Speaker
I'm really curious to see how ah how how the competition on the perfect exchanges circuit is going to be holding up in 2026. That's like,
00:47:16
Speaker
or Or is there going to be like a perpetual points program for all of these things? Like it can be. and I mean, I don't i don't i don't think that that it's impossible for other tokens to do well. I just don't think they will do as well as Hyperliquid because it's kind of like this loop thing as we have seen with like everything in crypto where the first thing is kind of the...
00:47:36
Speaker
the one that goes up the most and then the others. But I mean, i guess it depends. Maybe if there's something that really like innovates a little bit and does things differently. I've got a question for you because like I haven't already been on the token stuff or like platform of stuff.
00:47:49
Speaker
Have you ever traded XPL? What the fuck is XPL about? I keep seeing people like talking about the price and talking about the talkinggan all fuck is XPL about.
00:48:01
Speaker
No, it went completely to zero, that's why people talk about it. like I remember I traded it in the pre-market because someone on Twitter said like it's going to trade it. What does it do? like What's the point of XPL? Why did it launch? like it's It's like a plasma. It's called plasma and it's like um a stable coin chain. Like it's for USDT. I think there's some partnership with Bitfinex or Tether or something like that. Like it's for USDT, I think.
00:48:31
Speaker
And it's supposed to be like like you can farm yield on it and and send stablecoins for like cheap and whatever, but people kind of realize... I finally remember in 2020, 2021, I was some dogshit tokens on ETH. I was paying like $100 fees or like blockchain fees. That was fucking insane.
00:48:53
Speaker
And now I can look back at it for them. But people said it's kind of like a new bank, so like it it will reach a lot of people and Sablecoins were the hype for a little bit. And then it's a meme token.
00:49:07
Speaker
And so some people like bought it, so it's like kind of a meme that it's like just going to zero every single day and they're like coping about it. I can imagine. So it's it's just like every other token pretty much. like There's nothing that special to it. I see.
00:49:21
Speaker
To be really honest. Alright, yeah, no, I mean, I've been like head down working on the Null and I've just seen all of these like tokens spawn up and was just like... you're you're not You're not missing much. You're not missing already on really anything. Like right now nothing is happening for the last couple of months since October 10th when like everything went down. I think the market is kind of dead and we need to like wait for next year until Yeah, pretty much. October 10, we did kind of rack a lot of people as far as I can see. Even if you kind of tickle the hyper tracker and see the, you know, general volume.
00:49:57
Speaker
And it's kind of the restful to be honest. though I hope everybody everyone's all right. I think we just take time until there's like new narrative. Like it's always like this. Like it takes time until there's new things that spawn up and people are interested again and people have a bit more money to like play around with.
00:50:15
Speaker
Cool. So like maybe next year will will be a good year regarding that. What do you like what are you um look at when you think about integrating a new exchange?
00:50:27
Speaker
If you can say anything about that. mean, we're trying to kind of see. People are kind of curious. Yeah, we we fan ah understand like, okay, there's like enough liquidity on the exchange.
00:50:38
Speaker
People are they are like actually real traders on it. ah We try to get in touch with the teams and chat with them a little bit. Okay, what's your fee model? What's your plans? Like, what's the type general direction of your exchange or your future plans of growth? We try to make sure that obviously we're not going to be integrating anyone that's like...
00:51:03
Speaker
ah that might be a danger for our users, obviously, because if we kind of... the way I see it, like if really something is like to some degree a voucher of like, you know, yeah, these guys are all right.
00:51:14
Speaker
I hope it's not necessarily that from the user perspective, but we try to kind of like make sure that we are not integrating any illiquid shit, because then what's the point of integrating some illiquid stuff in the e-determiner like that?
00:51:27
Speaker
Nobody plays there. ah But generally, we kind of look at liquid exchanges, and I guess that's mainly and that the team is not fraudulent. But like obviously, there's not much that I can personally, like i'm not going to hire a private detective to go and stalk the CEO and whatnot to help see that it isn't. I mean, FTX was one of the first integrations, i like one of the main ones back in the day. And we all know.
00:51:53
Speaker
Yeah. i mean when But it's also like, if if it's that big, you kind of still have to work around. Or like at least offer the option, I would say. and even back then, like no one really knew that it's going to be like yeah i mean that bad to this extent. You see, you're going to be making some mistakes in your life, I guess. But I don't think it was a mistake. Generally speaking, it was like approved by everyone in market. And obviously there was like a lot of volume and we kind of wanted to you a be i don't think like I think we we should have. like I didn't really trade or use the terminal back then, but like if if i was with the terminal now and FTX existed, I would say we should we should have it
00:52:31
Speaker
Like ah depending on when when, maybe not like in November 22, I would say like, hey, we should should like integrate it. But like the the whole year before that, it would just make sense. No, but as you can see, as you can see, we're not integrating just any exchanges, even though ah probably it would have been beneficial for us to kind of get in early to some projects and, you know, farm some stuff as well.
00:52:52
Speaker
But like, we we just wait a bit to kind of see how stuff develops, like what the general opinion of the exchange is, you know. And if we have like a lot of requests on the timeline, for example, for Lighter, um most of times when we asked on X, like, oh, which watch should we integrate next? There are always like a lot of people asking for it.
00:53:12
Speaker
So yeah, we kind of also listen to our users in terms of like feedback and see, okay, you guys want to trade there, okay, we might just i just want to do an integration for you.
00:53:27
Speaker
what what What is something that the people have asked about that you will like never do? maybe Maybe not like a lot or whatever, but just like someone. that's a good question. Does anything like that exist?
00:53:42
Speaker
I don't think that we've kind of denied any requests, I think about it. ah I mean, we had the requests for traditional markets as well, like, you know, international brokers and whatnot. I'm not saying no, it's just like, it's going to take while for me to kind of figure out what bugs can go on on their API and like how to kind of properly structure it. the structureally But like, I don't think that we've ever said no to a feature request.
00:54:09
Speaker
Probably if it's like a shit VEX, we're going to say no. ah But generally speaking, no, not really.
00:54:19
Speaker
Yeah, i was just thinking about it myself. I don't think like, I feel like we're very good at listening to users and listening to like their wants and needs and and what they would like to see implemented. I mean, as i mentioned previously, ah we have like ah back trainers with like high VIP traders mostly because we want to cater to ah that specific user vibe ah because they kind of trust us with their size and we just want to make sure they have like nice experience.
00:54:41
Speaker
Eternal has some like Easter eggs, if you're a specific user or whatnot, that they ask for like specific feature implementations that only they can see as well. So we do custom ah features as well. But, ah you know, it depends on like the scope of the feature, like how big it is or like whatnot.
00:54:59
Speaker
ah The latest one we've done, I think, is for the swerp order type. The guy was like, swerving like insane size and the market makers were in keeping up with like, finishing the best within us.
00:55:10
Speaker
And we had to kind of introduce some delays, like batches of batches to kind of make sure that, you know, stability kind of increases back again. ah but yeah I feel like you you you shouldn't say that publicly or your DMs are gonna be full of like custom feature requests. I mean, you know, I'm i'm i'm up for doing custom stuff as long as you're not like ah like you' not mentally challenged.
00:55:33
Speaker
um So yeah, I mean, why not? like New features, I guess.
00:55:41
Speaker
ah One more thing one one thing we can talk about a bit is maybe prediction markets. Yeah, that's like an interesting area. We've had a lot of high traders, like high-volunt traders that can mention that that's like a nice area to go into.
00:55:55
Speaker
And that might be big in next year. ah And we do have ah somebody working for us, you know, not, um he actually wrote an article on how to derive the Greeks from prediction markets. He kind of sees them as like options.
00:56:11
Speaker
ah So that's that's ah quite interesting stuff. Well, we do have some unreleased features that he's been working on, and I do really hope to kind of ah release them sometime in Q&A next year.
00:56:22
Speaker
ah It's about like our smart hedge feature. Currently, we just let you choose whatever asset. But we've done some work to kind of create some correlation matrices, right? Because if if like, just an example, beef BTC is inversely correlated with ETH, right?
00:56:39
Speaker
That means that if you open up ah long on BTC, then you might as well just open up short as well to kind of hedge your exposure ah with the short on ETH because they are inversely correlated.
00:56:50
Speaker
And if you kind of manage to do that and integrate some prediction markets as well, for example, what's the sole token price going to be in like five, six months and whatnot, then we might actually give some like proper suggestions. Obviously, I don't want to give anyone suggestions on how they trade or like what to do, but it's just like how some so stats derive um stuff like and like that.
00:57:13
Speaker
you know, um and i think I think that's going to be interesting. i've I kind of treat the prediction markets like bets. I've bet on like the F1 outcome I've lost, obviously.
00:57:25
Speaker
ah Most of my bets have been like, fuck shit, like, you know, but i'm I think that if we are to integrate them and What I hope we would achieve is like if you take a look at the prediction markets ah venues, 80% of their volume is like sports betting.
00:57:47
Speaker
I think that maybe if we get to properly ah display the prediction market stuff, we might be able to push some... um um some stuff towards those other markets that are not so well known, right? Like crypto related.
00:58:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. True.
00:58:13
Speaker
Well, we were talking about like the seeing it as options. Would you ever integrate some like option functionality into the terminal? What? Like option
Integrating Options Trading
00:58:22
Speaker
exchanges?
00:58:23
Speaker
Oh, yeah. We were actually thinking about it, but options, are I think, are way too complex for the normal user. yeah speaking I've never traded options as well.
00:58:36
Speaker
I actually want, I've been chatting with Ozzy and Trip and the guys and I do want to integrate the options stuff. I think most of the exchanges we support have kind of added support for options lately.
00:58:51
Speaker
i think that because Venue is still derivative for options, if I'm not mistaken, ah there are some also some interesting Hyper-VM projects that do options, risk finance as well.
00:59:02
Speaker
yeah, true, yeah. And yeah, I don't see why not, but we would kind of have to, like, we kind of proud ourselves with making the complex simple for the normal user.
00:59:15
Speaker
And in order for to that, we're going to have to kind of do a lot of research and development in terms of like how to properly display those things and make the user understand what the hell they're doing.
00:59:27
Speaker
I think it would be cool, but I guess we would need to see like more option usage in general to like really make it worth Have you traded options this word ever? like A little bit, but it's like like I have read about like the Greeks and about the different strategies that you can do.
00:59:43
Speaker
um But I recently made a post about it. I i find it quite difficult to understand. like i get the options letter, how it works, like the different dates, and then you can buy and sell puts or whatever.
00:59:54
Speaker
but like the the execution is kind of weird because you don't really like market buy stuff because if you do then you're like instantly five percent underwater because then you you kind of have to like make put limit orders into the book or do like some rfq thing or whatever and then wait until you get filled and it's just weird and then on chain is just like even more complicated for how it works so i'm like I mean, I got to be honest. i kind of I kind of want to do it, but like it's it's difficult.
01:00:27
Speaker
I kind of got interested in the options lately, mostly because of risk finance. I kind of checked out their website. And the way they kind of present them, they present them like extremely simple. And that's why kind of spawned my interest, like, yo, maybe maybe we should like finally add some options, opportunities for it. Obviously, it's going to be like a different engine from the background goes and it's going to completely different stuff.
01:00:50
Speaker
But um there simply isn't that much demand, I think, on the retail side of options. Yeah.
01:00:59
Speaker
Probably not, at least not not for now, but maybe that will change in the future. Yeah, I mean, we're open to do all this stuff. Like imagine putting options to your mobile in Silicon Terminal Lab. I mean, that's going to be insane.
01:01:11
Speaker
that That would be cool, yeah. I mean... There's so much shit to do in that mobile app, man. Like if you take look at all of our feature offerings in terms like all of the different components that we have, we're going to have to kind of jam all of that in like a small mobile
Reflections and Future Plans
01:01:26
Speaker
UI.
01:01:26
Speaker
Then that's going to be like a challenge.
01:01:33
Speaker
I mean, yeah, I guess we'll have to see how you go about it. Like it probably doesn't need to be as complicated or like, well not complicated, but complex as like the main website, but...
01:01:45
Speaker
ah yeah I mean, do people like... so the The thing is, i I would say, like, do people really seriously trade from mobile? But I think, like, a lot of people actually only trade through mobile, like, ever and never even even touch anything on their desktop. but Yeah, that's one thing. And you have to kind of think of a little bit backwards, right? Like, you're on your desktop, you're on your desktop, you start trading, you start getting into positions, and um all of a sudden, something happens. you want to get out of your positions. You want to kind of change something. You're not next to your desktop.
01:02:15
Speaker
Generally, if you use a mobile app, you can chase in, you can chase out, you can do all that stuff. So um you just want to get out of the positions and you simply can't or you have to go to our mobile versions of the website and it's just like got a bit weird and not as user-friendly as our desktop app.
01:02:31
Speaker
So I think even us, if you think about it, like we are not um a stats platform. You don't derive your trade ideas directly from the internet unless you're like a short-time trader. like um whatnot, but we are an execution platform, right? So ah once you come and start using Eternal, you should kind of have like an idea of what you want to do. You're not going to start putting all of these like, how do I would say, all of these observational tools on top of an execution system. Obviously you can do it and there are plans to kind of do it to some degree, but we're like, we're not, I don't think that we will ever be as complex in terms you
01:03:14
Speaker
analysis as EXO or like something like that. Also because thing is like proper execution, get me in, get me out of the market as fast as possible in a correct and ah performant manner. And that's what we're trying to kind of bring mobile, right?
01:03:28
Speaker
Like you already know what you're doing. You're not going to take the mobile app and just like hit draw lines and whatnot to kind of understand, like get the feel of the market. Yeah, true. That's how I see it.
01:03:38
Speaker
Probably people are using it in a different way. But like generally, when I trade or like when I do stuff occasionally, I don't go the terminal and just like, oh yeah, let me check the five minute chart. I mean, yeah, five minute chart makes sense. Like, you know, big meta analysis.
01:03:53
Speaker
Yeah. No, I think you definitely like have to to derive your ideas from different kinds of tools. Like, there are so many tools out there at the moment. And I think even if you would combine like the terminal with something else like that, it would be a bit...
01:04:08
Speaker
Like that there's already so much information. Like I have like three screens where like look at all of the different things. Only one of them is the terminal and then it's like... Yeah, I mean, what if we don't support like a specific exchange that has like a... does something like you're just gonna be blind.
01:04:23
Speaker
You simply have to kind of use different tools. In my opinion, I mean, I wish I could put all of crypto in our terminal. Like it's like it's not possible.
01:04:34
Speaker
No, not really. Maybe maybe in like the future or something like that. It's going possible. But but I think we're doing a good a good job with what we're doing already and with everything that is like coming. so Yeah, I mean, everybody wants everything yesterday. i mean, you know, the we just assume like there's like a process to it and there's like a logical progression to it. That's what we're kind of working towards.
01:04:55
Speaker
um For example, the back new backend engine, that's going to allow you to do some new stuff ah that you couldn't previously, for example, like the triggers and whatnot. And you could, you are going to be able to kind of ah pair your trading with like some derived stats from the market.
01:05:10
Speaker
So you don't have to be constantly on the terminal to kind of execute your amazing strategies and whatnot. Like it's not going to happen tomorrow. Yeah. No, but we got like a lot of good new stuff coming. We've had a good year, I think.
01:05:26
Speaker
I don't really have anything else ah interesting to talk about. I think this is a good point. Yeah, I know. I mean, I kind of wish that people find this podcast like amusing, insightful and whatnot.
01:05:39
Speaker
um Yeah, I guess.
01:05:45
Speaker
Yeah, we went over the history, but we talked a bit about what we're doing right now, what is coming in the future. um yeah this was a bit more of a casual episode, casual Christmas episode. I hope people are still going to like it anyway.
01:05:58
Speaker
do you have any like finishing finishing advice, finishing wisdom or any other finishing words for the end that you want to let people know?
01:06:11
Speaker
Not really, to be honest. I don't know, man. I just hope they don't make, um I don't know. don't know, to be honest. i Send me a DM if you want a chat, I guess.
01:06:27
Speaker
Dennis is always up for new feature requests. I can maybe say ah i'm I'm glad for everything we got to do this year. I'm i'm very excited for next year. I hope everyone also enjoyed the podcast this year and is excited for your new features and new guests and everything we're going to bring. And we wish you a happy holiday time.
01:06:48
Speaker
yeah nice start into the new it's a small easter egg if you get to this part of the podcast just shoot me a DM I might give you some merch because I don't think people took a movie soon again no that's actually good that's good yeah okay goodbye