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Farming, Self Care & Ceremony with Charlie Showers
908 Plays1 month ago
Don’t you love it when science geeks get spiritual? I do, because when highly rational folks admit that the world is far more mysterious than it is predictable, it’s intensely validating for us intuitive hippies who’ve believed in magic all along.
This is one of those beautiful and surprising conversations with one of my farming idols Charlie Showers from Black Barn Farm that’ll have you rethinking everything. And/or thinking you want to get into apple growing. DO IT.
Charlie is a geological engineer, agricultural researcher, bushfire and natural disaster expert, fruit tree grafting jedi, permaculture ninja, dad, husband, unapologetically ritualistic bloke and bloody legend.
We traverse:
🍏 Eldership
🍏 The meaning of life
🍏 Men’s circles + gatherings
🍏 Permaculture farming
🍏 Orchard rituals
🍏 First gen farming
🍏 Losing freedom, gaining depth
🍏 Schooling regrets
🍏 Father/son rites of passage
🍏 Self care for men
🍏 Recharging as an introvert
🍏 Advance sleep phase disorder
🍏 Charlie’s #1 most important skill (surprising)
🍏 Anti-fragility
🧙♀️LINKY POOS
Black Barn Farm’s home on the web
Book ~ The Complete Book of Self Sufficiency by John Seymour
Castlemaine Rites of Passage Program
Organisation ~ The Men’s Table
Book ~ AntiFragile: Things That Gain from Disorder by Nassim Nicholas Taleb
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Risk Illiance Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
race scallia Hey, this is Katie, and you're tuned in to Risk Illiance, a podcast about the hard, soft and surprising skills that'll help us stay afloat if our modern systems don't.
Acknowledgment of Indigenous Lands
00:00:18
Speaker
I'm still away from home on Wurramai and Awabakal lands in coastal New South Wales, and I pay my respects to the living, breathing country beneath the concrete and SUVs.
Personal Update and Seaside Story
00:00:30
Speaker
I wasn't actually planning to do an introduction for this episode because I actually just want to get it out there as soon as possible. It has also been a really emotional time for my family and I'm feeling like the creative tides are well and truly out. But I just had to tell you this little seaside story before introducing today's guest. We were fishing off the break wall between the ocean and the harbour late yesterday afternoon.
00:00:56
Speaker
The sun was low and the breeze was cool, but the rocks beneath our butts were hot, like incubation mats for chicks or tomato seedlings. Out past Jordan's fishing line, the harbour was a hive of activity, with trawlers and tinies and little tugboats guiding clod-hopping cargo ships to safety.
00:01:16
Speaker
And beyond all of that sat the city skyline, a reef of buildings and cranes and industry crowding the horizon. Just as I was sailing off on a mental rant about the human monopolization of everything, a splash and a snort redirected my attention to the water below.
00:01:34
Speaker
A seal had popped up right in front of us. An Australian fur seal. Whiskers dripping and nose glistening. I squawked like a seagull. It was just so exciting to see a wild creature that close. But the strangest thing of all was the eye contact. The seal was looking straight at us, staring into our faces, holding our gaze as it bobbed in the swell.
00:01:57
Speaker
We wondered if it wanted food and threw a prawn in its direction. And I don't know what we were expecting, that it would leap and pirouette and snatch the airborne snack like something out of SeaWorld. But when the shrimp hit the water, it scared the living shit out of the seal who dove beneath the waves and didn't come back.
Reflections on Human-Wildlife Curiosity
00:02:16
Speaker
What's the moral of this story? I'm really not sure, but it makes me think of something Claire Dunn, who you'll find in episode 11, would say to us as we went out for a wander. And that was to hold the possibility that the wild world is just as curious about us as we are about it. That we're not just seeing, but being seen. That whatever we're experiencing is also experiencing us.
Interview with Charlie Showers
00:02:42
Speaker
And doesn't that just open up a can of worms?
00:02:46
Speaker
This conversation with Charlie Showers from Black Barn Farm is brimming with unexpected connections, kind of like making eye contact with a seal. Bringing seemingly dissimilar concepts together like science and sacredness, farming and ceremony, sacrifice and freedom, apples and parenting.
00:03:05
Speaker
Charlie and I go a pretty long way back at this point. We first met when I went to Blackbun Farm as a woofer in 2018, and you might know that I hosted Future Studying with his wife Jade Miles, who's my podcasting wifey, and I love them and their family and every square inch of their permaculture property in Victoria's northeast with a fiery, fiery passion.
00:03:26
Speaker
Charlie is, I don't think they'll mind me saying so, less public facing than Jade, yet he's always struck me as not only terrifyingly intelligent but a bit of a visionary when it comes to farming.
00:03:39
Speaker
Charlie is a geological engineer, agricultural researcher, bushfire and natural disaster expert person, nursery man, permaculture ninja, dad, husband, and unapologetically ritualistic bloke. Because as I discovered on a recent visit to Blackburn farm, Charlie's increasingly curious about ceremony and rites of passage into which we sunk in this conversation.
00:04:02
Speaker
Without giving any spoilers, I've got to say that Charlie's pick of skills and priorities for the future is probably my favorite of all time. There's so much beauty and richness in the next hour and a bit, and like most interviews, it really warms up in the second half. So please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with Charlie Showers, and I'd love to dedicate it to Andrew.
00:04:28
Speaker
What's it like up there today? It is definitely spring-like in beautiful Stanley. There's a whisper of clouds in the sky, a chilly breeze from the southwest, um but otherwise sunny. So it's always a very busy time in the orchard is spring. Chasing the season because there's all these things that just want to start growing and want to start happening and I'm always behind and yeah, so spring's always a bit frantic.
Exploring Life's Meaning and Eldership
00:04:58
Speaker
Yeah, you always have a lot on the go. And that was such a poetic description of your climactic conditions there, very Wendell Berry. Oh, I'm more than happy to be compared to Wendell Berry. He's one of my heroes. Yeah, I always think of you guys when I come across a Wendell Berry quote. To come into the piece of Wild Things, which is one of his most beautiful poems, I often um think about that one in particular.
00:05:24
Speaker
Nice. Yeah, it's very accessible poetry. It's not too ponsy. I get a little bit intimidated by certain poets and poems, but it is the stuff of the earth. It is, and because he's a real salt of the earth farmer, and also he doesn't just do poetry, he also writes some really incredible essays, which I love um digesting as well.
00:05:48
Speaker
ah yeah I find his take on a lot of things incredibly interesting and insightful. I hope as I move into eldership I can only be as small part as insightful and helpful as Wendell Berry's been to meet other people, but yeah, he's been a real guiding light.
00:06:07
Speaker
Well, Charlie, I was just talking to George and I was conveying to him the the crush of questions that I wanted to ask you, but I wasn't really sure which one I should pluck out of the clutch to present to you first. And George was like, why don't you just ask him the meaning of life, just straight up. And I don't want to put that on you, but you did just mention eldership and how you want to be of service in the world. And I feel like, you know, why not just jump into the heart of you know why I'm so interested to chat with you because you are such an intentional human being. If you are thinking about the kind of elder you would like to be in the world, what does what does that look like like? What are you here to do and how would you like to to hold people in their pursuit of a better life and better a better world?
00:06:51
Speaker
Yeah, it's a really wonderful thing to ponder on, and essentially it does come back to that really tricky question that you said is, what is the meaning of life? And I think really, for me, and I'm...
00:07:07
Speaker
if I use this to preface the whole podcast is I'm not a ah big one for offering advice to people per se as in I'll impart my experiences on life and I know that's why you're asking me these questions but um yeah I don't consider myself any great sage or anything like that um and I'm often a pretty quiet person and reasonably Yeah, introverted. So for me doing podcasts, you know, I love talking about my life, which is what I do. So um yeah, I guess I offer my experiences and I preface that to is that I've come from a very privileged background and I've been lucky to make the decisions I've been able to make and I understand not everyone else is able to do that. So I'd just like to put that out there as well because um yeah, I don't want to create any
00:07:57
Speaker
Yeah, undue expectations that people might put on their life because they don't necessarily lead the life that Jade and I do here at Blackbun Farm. But anyway, all of that aside, if I go back to the meaning of life for me really is a life of meaning. um And that comes back to your question around eldership.
Charlie's Journey from Engineering to Farming
00:08:15
Speaker
And for me, as I start to move into that phase, I'm in my late 40s now and I've definitely noticed a a shift in the way I think and behave and operate in the world in the last few years. and that's definitely I've always lived a pretty intentional life and I've always followed my gut a lot um and that's led me to where I am. but
00:08:41
Speaker
Yeah, in the last few years, where what I've wanted to be doing has definitely changed. So I still want to be farming and I love doing that here at Blackburn Farm. But there's a part of me that now also wants to build my capacity as a human being, so doing a lot of internal work.
00:08:59
Speaker
on me as a man with other men. So men circles and going away on men's gatherings, I find incredibly enriching um because it grows me as a human and not because I like to do that just from ah a selfish self-development point of view, but if I can do that, it allows me to then help other people more. And I think that is just going to become so important in the future.
00:09:26
Speaker
and We've really lacked a lot of effective eldership. and I don't say that as a blame thing. I think it's more of a cultural issue that our culture hasn't held a lot of elder people and allowed them to provide the advice and the sage wisdom that that is so needed and comes from decades and decades of wisdom. and It's not just your own wisdom, it's also tapping into ancestral wisdom. so yeah For me, I'm looking forward to moving into that phase of my life and I'm really enjoying exploring yeah that that deeper um internal um growth and how I can then use that to help other people.
00:10:06
Speaker
yeah i was I was kind of tickled by the the contrast that I was seeing in you know where you have focused your energy and your intellectual energy, I suppose, in the realms of geology and engineering and all things scientific. And if we're talking about rocks, they're kind of the most cliched, inanimate object there is. People just see them as totally devoid of life really just these blocks of stuff and yet what you're bringing forth already in the conversation is this intention to have more more meaning and depth and ritual and ceremony and sacredness in your life and I wonder if you can take us on a bit of a journey from like your formative years as ah as a science person and geologist into this other realm where
00:10:51
Speaker
Like you're saying there's all this work that you want to do with other men and with yourself That might actually be quite fringy for a lot of folks and especially in in light of your professional background Yeah, so that there's a lot in that question isn't there so for me it definitely has been a journey I
00:11:14
Speaker
as a geologist and I studied geological engineering at university and engineering was a a very black and white discipline to be studying really as in It's either right or it's wrong and there's all these mechanics behind rock engineering. But even from a very early age, but as far as me studying at university, um so I love the geology and I loved the um learning about geological time and um I was always fascinated by it. I loved it at school, which is why I went into it at university. And I love learning about natural systems.
00:11:52
Speaker
But I wasn't thinking about my relationship or my culture's relationship with those systems. It was purely out of an interest and maybe that's an evolutionary drive inside me because I just listened to what was calling to me at the time and that was a need to to digest a huge amount of knowledge. um So I did digested all of that and did my university degree But even when I was there, I went to RMIT University in Melbourne in the city
Influences and History of Orchard Farming
00:12:22
Speaker
and extremely diverse range of undergraduate degrees on offer. And so there's all those engineers and then there's all these other people doing a spattering of all sorts of things. And I guess that's similar to all universities, isn't it? and And that's half the beauty of it. But we had to do these things called context curriculum subjects.
00:12:41
Speaker
um So in your final two years at uni, you had to do a subject which was outside of your ah faculty. um And I did dream interpretation and another one on language. And as an engineer, I got to go sit in these classes with all these other people that were so different to the people that were in my normal classes. And I got to study all of these different things. And I was drawn.
00:13:07
Speaker
to these more, I guess, less black and white and more spiritually ah explorative subjects, which I was already fascinated in. And I didn't really see the relationship um between the two. And as I've aged, I can definitely now see the intermarrying of that beautiful um knowledge and understanding of natural systems, but how I then weave that into our culture and um I find agriculture a great um marrying of the two, because agriculture is such a human-centric science that that marries natural systems and soils and weather and animals and climate, um and the the human interaction with it all. So for me, yeah, explorations into permaculture, um which I probably prefer as a way of summarising the way I farm rather than agriculture,
00:14:04
Speaker
um I've found just mind-blowing and also when I first came across permaculture for me it was ah I felt like i'd I'd found what I'd been looking for for so long as far as a system that allowed me to think about designing, ah brought in all of those cultural aspects and the the landscape aspects as well. So yeah I hope that answers your question in a way and yeah for me it's been ah ah a lovely evolution and I've loved taking part of it and I look forward to seeing where it takes me. Yeah so when did the farming idea strike? Oh well when did it strike? I mean it probably always sat deep inside me. My dad was a forester um and a hobby farmer and
00:14:56
Speaker
Dad grew up in a different time, so he grew up, he's not a baby boomer, that dad he's now passed away, but um he was born in 1940, so very much not a baby boomer, he was sort of the end of whatever that generation was before the boomers. um So he didn't really get to explore this as much as I think his deep yearning would have loved, but he definitely lent into um growing food and he had this incredible passion for gardening um as as much as his culture and his where he saw himself as a person would allow him and that definitely rubbed off on me. um He was always buying gardening books and he bought this amazing book called Self-Sufficiency by John Seymour. I don't know if you've ever seen it and
00:15:43
Speaker
ah just as a kid it it was just so visceral digesting that and then watching my dad he just loved playing around with everything gardening so I think that the farming side it was triggered just then I loved from a kid gardening like I just I did all the gardening at home I managed all the lawns and the garden beds and everything and I loved it all through high school um but then I went off studied geology and yeah I probably didn't think about farming specifically and I started working as a geologist but in the Department of Agriculture here in Victoria. um So I got thrust back into into farming and I just loved it. It's such an amazing group of people in the Department of Agriculture um and there was some organics research being done at the research station I was working on in Rutherford Glen. um
00:16:38
Speaker
and And that really just started getting me thinking about farming. And then the thing that got me interested in orcharding, we moved to Stanley after I finished uni, Jade and I, which is ah where we live now, but on a a different property. So 24 years ago, we moved to this tiny little cottage and was surrounded by an apple orchard. And I never, I thought I wanted to go into livestock. I'd never thought about orcharding, but I had this orchard around us that was still being run by this lovely old guy called Tony Shamron.
00:17:08
Speaker
um and And just watching him farm and the way that he interacted with the trees and the community interacted with his little farm gate and how he sold his apples.
00:17:24
Speaker
was really formative and then watching him but the push out and bulldoze out the last of his apple trees was really formative as well and started ask ah started asking questions around our food system which made me just think more broadly about the commodification of our food system and why it's hard to run small farms and that's yeah really what spurred my interest into orgyning.
Apple Varieties and Cultural Significance
00:17:47
Speaker
Yeah, thanks, Charlie. Can you dig into that scenario a little bit more around you know you being in a traditional orcharding country there up in Stanley in the northeast of Victoria and what you were seeing happening with people taking out their orchards? Why was that? And why were you inspired to kind of take up that mantle of orchardist and put a different spin on it?
00:18:09
Speaker
Yeah, so the the little town we live in, Stanley, it's a traditional orchiding village. So there's about 200 people that live here now, but in its heyday, there was a lot more. And it was really after um the First World War, maybe even a little bit earlier. So it's a traditional ah gold rush town. So there's a lot of gold farmed here and that's how it was founded. And then once the gold was won, they they turned to orchining because very deep soils, um cool climate. We sit about 750 metres above sea level. So a great orchining climate. The primary school at the time had over a hundred kids in it, um just a bustling little village full
00:18:51
Speaker
ah families farming apples and farming apples on about a very similar scale to what Jay and I are doing now so um properties around the 20 to 40 acre size so reasonably small properties um and yeah as our food system commodified and supermarkets starting putting pressure on growers to be a lot more efficient um And the other issues started happening. like A lot of Stanley's apples were exported to the UK and um refrigeration started to be improved so they weren't as reliant on imports. um A few ships got stuck in the Suez Canal during the Suez Canal crisis in the 60s and Stanley's growers traditionally weren't paid until the apples reached the port in the UK. so
00:19:43
Speaker
Some poor farmers completely lost their whole livelihoods or the whole income for one year um due to yeah boats being stuck in the sewers' canals. So things happening on the other side of the world to this little farming village um slowly eroded away all the family farms. and um to, yeah, there used to be about 30 to 40 families farming apples in Stanley and now there's three. So yeah, it's very different and the primary school is closed down and it's changed the whole fabric of the community because it's lost that localised, well I guess it wasn't a completely localised food system because a lot of it was being exported but it's
00:20:26
Speaker
Yeah, it's just it's changed the the fabric of the town and um we saw the tail end of that. So we saw the last of um some of those orchards close down and it started Jade and I questioning our food system and um we wanted to get involved in bringing life back into small family farms and farms that were providing food to local people um where people get to know farmers and we wanted to be involved in that. So really that was part of the spur for me to to want to get into orching as well um and also
00:21:05
Speaker
It was just the romanticism of growing apples. so An apple might be considered one of the the blandest fruits that's ever out there because the supermarket apples are so boring, but once I started looking into it, you know there's over 3,000 named apple varieties and there's more variation in apple genetics than there is in any other fruiting variety.
00:21:28
Speaker
and the The cultural associations between humans and apples I just found fascinating. The stories of them evolving in Kazakhstan and finding their way through trading routes all over the world and all the different varieties that are particular to their parts of the world. There's not many um temperate parts of the world that don't have their own apple varieties and their own cultural associations to apples. So I just, I started reading about that and I fell in love with that as well. And there was something magical about taking possibly the most boring fruit on earth um as it's seen commercially now and then understanding and appreciating that it's so much more than that. And there's just this incredible tapestry of weaved history between homo sapiens and apples. So I just wanted to be part of that too.
00:22:18
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, our apples are, you can become so easily obsessed with apples once you scratch the surface of that incredible history. um While you've got your apple geek hat and whole outfit on, would you be able to just share like a few different varieties that we may not have heard of that are just totally radical?
00:22:35
Speaker
ah Well, this is a dangerous area to get into Katie once you start asking me questions about apples because I could go on forever, but I won't I'll keep it down to a short few so Ashmead's kernel is in a bit of an enigma of an apple variety It's completely russeted. So if people think about the bird boss compare how it has that um Well, it's a russet sort of this this rusty appearance to it. This is a completely russeted apple. So it's ugly-looking but it tastes like ah this sherbetty complex tart mix. It doesn't taste like a standard apple. Kids won't like it. They'll hate it. It's very much an adult apple, but incredibly complex flavour and um a complex history in Australia. And I ended up with some wood of this Ashmead's kernel by accident. I don't know where
00:23:27
Speaker
Well, someone gave me the wood, and I didn't think much about it um because people share wood for grafting all the time, and I'd heard of the apple, and I'd grafted it up, started selling the trees, and someone ran me up and said, if you're an expert's colonel, but that that doesn't exist anywhere in Australia. I was like, oh.
00:23:45
Speaker
um I didn't realise it was so rare. So anyway, it's a very rare variety of apple in Australia. um And it's just, it's a taste sensation like no other apple. And then the other one I'll talk about, which I always talk about, because it's close to my heart, is an apple called Prima. It was bred for the organics industry as an organic grower.
00:24:08
Speaker
It is an incredible apple to grow. It's completely black spot resistant, as is Ashmead's kernel, by the way. So it doesn't get the most common fungal disease that apples get. So you don't have to spray it even with organic fungicides, which is amazing for an apple grower. It reliably produces fruit year in, year out. It's just a happy, hardy, healthy tree. So yeah, probably, yeah, my two picks.
00:24:30
Speaker
Brilliant. And just to illuminate some of the terminology there, when you say would for grafting, just if people don't know that story. That's right. So I get into yeah nerdy, orchiding terminology. So yeah apples produce sexually, which means that the apple pip um so like in the inside the heart of an apple, um actually has a mum and a dad. um So the mum is the tree that it comes from, and then the dad is another apple tree. So apples can't pollinate themselves and there's another variety to pollinate them. So the pip in a pink lady apple, for example, if you plant it, that pip won't produce an apple tree that grows pink lady apples. It'll produce maybe something that's similar to a pink lady apple because it has half pink lady genetics, but it has genetics from something else. So the only way to keep apple trees true to type is to grab a piece of wood or like a little stick off a pink lady and then stick it onto the roots of another apple tree. So you're basically doing asexual reproduction. So every pink lady apple tree is a cutting of a cutting of a cutting of a cutting of a cutting.
00:25:40
Speaker
of the very first bred pink lady, which was a specific cross between golden delicious and the lady Williams apple. So yeah, that's why we graft apple trees to keep them true to type.
Symbolism of Apple Trees
00:25:51
Speaker
Mind-blowing. I love it. And are apples good parents? and Well, that's funny, isn't it? Mums and dads, are they good parents?
00:25:59
Speaker
um maybe not in the the human centric way as in they kind of just drop their offspring off at apple daycare and never see them again but maybe maybe that's a very simple way of looking at it because maybe once once they because they say apples never fall far from the tree. So if we assume that's true and then the the pip from the apple then starts growing, maybe once the roots of that seedling starts interacting with its mother, maybe then they share a bit of mycorrhizal association through fungal networks and maybe they do actually become good parents.
00:26:41
Speaker
I've never thought about that. Yeah, well, that's a parental maneuver, isn't it? Like letting your kids have their independence and putting their own roots down, but then supporting them in all the right ways. Oh, wow. Well, that's just, you're leaving down a whole other thought process around apples.
00:26:59
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. Good question. Well, Charlie, I was actually thinking of the mother tree in your orchard. And I totally didn't plan to talk about this at all. But is there anything you want to say about the mother tree? Because that really does symbolise not only, well, for me, it's representing the the ritual element and the tradition that you're bringing into your orchard beyond the commodification. So maybe you could just talk a bit about the mother tree.
00:27:24
Speaker
Yeah, sure. So our orchard has weaving rows, as you know, it's it's not straight, so they're they're on contour, or just off contour, they're on key line. So as you walk through our weaving rows, if you come into the middle of the orchard,
00:27:40
Speaker
We have one tree that's bigger than all the rest, and that's on purpose. So it's it's on a rootstock, its own roots. So it actually will grow to a full-sized apple tree, which is quite large, about 15, 20 meters tall, whereas all the other trees will only grow to about five meters tall, because they're on semi-dwarf rootstock. And the reason why we have this mother tree is it dates back to a tradition that used to happen in the cider orchards in southern England around Somerset and those sorts of places.
00:28:10
Speaker
is years, I don't know when it first started, but it'd be very, very old. and It's when people were very connected to the seasons and very reliant on apple harvest. so If the apple harvest went awry, then life was tough. It'd make the next 12 months really hard.
00:28:30
Speaker
so Over winter, they used to do ceremonies, Cordova Sale, which has Germanic um history originally back on the European continent, but was brought across to England. And they would celebrate the trees in an effort to bring in a good harvest. So it was done in the depths of winter um on the winter solstice. So as the season is turning, they would gather around the mother tree, which is the biggest tree in the orchard, and they'll do these ceremonies to to wish in a good season, so it was very spiritual, connected to the seasons and the land and to each other. It was usually not just done by the orchardists themselves, but across the whole community. They would march from orchard to orchard and go to all of the biggest trees in each orchard, banging pots and making noise to ward off spirits and playing music, and it was a lovely festival.
00:29:22
Speaker
um So we wanted a mother tree, so we could enact some of these similar processes, or processes, what a bland word, some of these similar rituals and and and um yeah fantastic ways of interacting with people in place. So we have a mid-winter sale here as well, we haven't done it um for the last few years actually, so we're due to do one. But we did one when we first um planted the mother tree,
00:29:50
Speaker
and we've had other celebrations around it since. So yeah, for us it's a way of connecting to country and connecting back to a lot of that lovely history that um people have had with apple orchards.
Community Reactions and Organic Diversity
00:30:03
Speaker
Thanks for that description and taking me into the orchard and I have a visceral recollection of being in your orchard because there are just so many scents and colours and the buzzings of insects and the diversity is is massive and um a huge feature of how you farm. And I was remembering a story that you told me last time I was there, Charlie, about other people in the area. other I don't know if it was an orchardist or someone in the agriculture scene, kind of thinking initially that you guys were pretty mad, not only for adopting these kind of messy, organic permaculture principles that didn't look anything like the immaculate orchards that people would ah expect from a commercial outfit, but also for bringing in some of these ritual
00:30:48
Speaker
reverential elements into your farm. And so I wonder if you would be able to share a little glimpse of like how other people in the region have maybe responded to you and your practices in the past and then over time seen some recognition that you might be onto something. Yeah, there's been a um a varying level of response to the the way, not only we farm, but the way we interact with our farm, land and community um from others in a very traditional orchard community, which has been very traditional in the sense that, yeah, there's no grass under your trees, everything's either herbicide or cultivated and orchards are a very neat place. um And they're farmed in a very specific way. um So we,
00:31:39
Speaker
definitely bucked that trend. and it this was Part of the beauty of being a first-gen farmer is I was free to explore all these what might seem loopy ideas and some of them um yeah haven't necessarily worked but it's given me the flexibility to try all sorts of different things. and so A lot of those things um were quite challenging to some traditional or to some So I've got to say in Stanley, overwhelmingly, um there's a lot of old-timer orchardists here, and they've been really encouraging to Jade and I giving orcharding a crack. They may think we're crazy and a bit loopy, but they've always been encouraging, um always been willing to share knowledge, which is, for me, incredibly valuable knowledge, because it's it's not just decades of their knowledge. They're often multi-generational, and these families have been farming apples here.
00:32:31
Speaker
um for over a hundred years, so there's a hundred over a hundred years of knowledge bound up in some of these people. um So for that, I'm massively grateful, but it has been comical at times, some of the responses we've had, particularly when we dress up and start dancing around the apple trees in the middle of winter and sing songs and things like that. and um you know and you get a few comments but look at the end of the day i'm um a pretty danderworth normal person in a way so they probably just say there's a curiosity um but this this we have had some pushback as well in some of our methodology because naively i think a lot of commodity farmers think um
00:33:17
Speaker
if you're farming organically that you just hands off as in you just put the tree in the ground and if bugs consume it then so be it. So they have wrongly assumed that we're actually a ah source of disease or some sort of um mega insect um breeding ground um which iron ironically couldn't be further from the truth Well, we're a very diverse insect breeding ground, and I'm very proud of that. But as far as um being hands off, um I would say I, and I don't like to blow my own trumpet, but being an organic orchardist, and more than that, not just being organic, because I'm where more than organic is in, there's a lot of organic sprays I won't even use. I've had to
00:34:06
Speaker
build a very intimate understanding of the key pests in the orchard. So because I need to manage them in a holistic way, um I have to intimately understand when they're breeding, um when they're laying eggs, when the eggs hatch. So there's always complexities around temperature and um to degree days and insect life cycles so I can control these insects. So I probably understand it better than most other orchardists that just spray once a fortnight and just don't even really understand their pests. So that's we've had a bit of pushback on that as well, but ah look, on the whole, it hasn't been an issue. It's really just a chance for conversation and a chance for us to explain why and how we do things. And I think there's been a quiet acceptance and understanding now that we're a fair way into it.
00:34:58
Speaker
um that that ah that it works. and you know I've built some lovely friendships with people that have now even had yeah probably epiphanies in the way they think about their orchiding. One of my neighbours um is a commercial nurseryman.
00:35:14
Speaker
And I spent a lot of time with him now talking about the different biology that we brew. He's now seen that he's had to move down a biological path to resolve a lot of his pest problems. um So we have a lot of common ground now. And in fact, he was here just this morning dropping back my aerated compost tea brewer that he borrowed um for the last couple of weeks, um which is fabulous. you know And it's fantastic to see regenerative agriculture moving into the realm of big commercial agriculture so yeah it's kind of been overwhelmingly a lovely a lovely story in your way of integrating and talking to people. I want to ask you more about Farming Charlie and the realities of that so as a first generation farmer I think you have like a really unique insight into
00:36:02
Speaker
Yeah, what it takes to transition into this kind of lifestyle and really speak to, I think it's safe to say, a broad swath of people who are curious, if not like determined to become farmers one day. So I wonder if you can share some of the realities of your life on the land and the kind of compromises or transitional systems and strategies you've had to implement to be able to do what you do. Yeah, so prior to us,
00:36:32
Speaker
buying this property and starting Blackburn Farm, we lived on a decent sized block in Beechworth. We had quite a lot of fruit trees, but I wasn't farming and I could leave the house for months on end if I really had to. Life was reasonably carefree.
00:36:51
Speaker
and Moving here and starting the farm has been this gradual toing and froing of having to let go of certain freedoms but then gaining all of these other beautiful seasonal based rituals and rhythms to life that we just lean into more and more each year that we're here and it starts to feel more natural.
00:37:20
Speaker
So I think if if a lot of people who were used to not being bound to a particular place and particular things at particular times, um they might find the way Jade and I live our life as super restrictive.
00:37:40
Speaker
As far as we can't leave the farm once we're up and going, the depths of winter is really the only time we can get away for more than a couple of days. so in some ways that that's really restrictive but in some ways it's beautifully liberating because I can't go anywhere else so I'm just here and I just have to be here um so I really lean into it and if I can make an analogy ah when so I've got twins and they're now 17 years old ah my children
00:38:12
Speaker
or two of my children. And when Jade first got pregnant with them, um it was Jade's brother who first said to me, wow, that must be so liberating.
00:38:23
Speaker
I remember thinking liberating, you kidding? I've just had this footloose fancy free life and now I'm about to have these two kids to tie me down. And he goes, no, like consider it this way. There's all these things you just can't do anymore. You just don't have to worry about it. And I remember thinking, wow, well, that's so true because so there's this flip side of sacrifice. So you sacrifice for your children. And likewise, I sacrificed for my farm.
00:38:50
Speaker
But you can see that the sacrifices are negative or you can see it as this this liberation because all of a sudden there's all these things I don't have to worry about because I just can't do them anymore. I'm bound by the farm, I'm bound by the seasons and I lean into that. um So I've found that um At times it can be frustrating, but once you realise, I've made this choice, and I love the choice that we've made and the life that we lead, and this is how it is, so that's the sacrifice that's made, but there's this massive upside to it, um and it's the rhythms of living
00:39:23
Speaker
by the season, there's all these things that I do now, and they nearly happen automatically, and there's these little flags that ah flick in me when something happens, say, a particular tree blossoms, or that means, okay, that tree's blossoming, that means I've got to start grafting soon. um So I know when the bottle's out, that means I've got to start grafting soon. So even if you took my calendar away, there's all of these beautiful things that happen that that are these mainstays throughout the the the seasonal year that my life now ticks to. um So that's been a ah wonderful
Parenting and Seasonal Living on the Farm
00:39:59
Speaker
thing.
00:39:59
Speaker
um Yeah, as far as being a first gen farmer though, the challenge has been real and particularly dorchening, there's a lot of capital investment up front. um So Jade and I have had to continue to work off farm and I still do work off farm um two to three days a week.
00:40:16
Speaker
And that's hard because I've got to keep in my mind this maintain that the the profession, no it's not so much being a professional, but um two topic areas. So ensure there's some overlap. So I still work as a part-time as a geologist. um So I've got all this forest hydrology and fire hydrology and all of this thing that takes up a lot of my brain space.
00:40:42
Speaker
which means I can't be throwing all of that brain space into my farm and um the complexity of you know my orchining system and and all of that. So I long to be able to do that solely, but um maybe it's healthy to to be kept across a few things. But yeah, regardless, that that that challenge is real. um And yeah, we've been trying to simplify our life so we can get our mortgage paid off as quickly as possible. So we've then got as much freedom as possible.
00:41:11
Speaker
I really appreciate that you've brought up that there are all these losses and sacrifices we may have to make really to live within the planet's boundaries and nature's limits. But when you flip them, you see the beautiful tethering to place and the depth of life that that starts to offer you. So I really, really love, Charlie, that you've highlighted that. I did want to ask you a couple of maybe stereotypically gendered questions, and I mean that I reckon these questions would more often be asked of women, which is why I'd love to put them to you. Because as you mentioned, you and Jade have three kids, um twins and um Miss Minnie. And I was wondering before this interview about your perspective on raising kids. I'd love to hear from you as a dad about your parenting journey and any insights that you can share around having kids on the farm and wanting to grow
00:42:09
Speaker
healthy young people who are also gonna do good shit in the world. Yeah, thanks for the opportunity because it maybe does get passed up sometimes of fathers. And I've really leant into my fathering role and ah I've really enjoyed it. And ever since we've had the kids, I've always worked part-time and Jada and I co-shared the time of having them at home as really young little kids and I really cherished that um and I'm thinking as I talk but as far as the the farming journey and the interaction with the children there's a lot of beautiful components to it obviously but there's a lot of challenge to it as well so
00:43:02
Speaker
Blackbun Farm as I said before has been a ah completely immersive experience for Jade and I and I'm sure at times our kids look at the way we lead our life here and how some of their friends, parents lead their lives and and have a and much higher degree of I guess, perceived freedom. and Maybe it's a good lesson for kids to learn, but it's been ah a hard one for us to negotiate with our kids as to why we don't do a lot of the other things that families do.
00:43:35
Speaker
and very good discussions to have, so I think that they're they are good observations for children to be having and they're good lessons and good things for kids to digest on, like but why why do we leave seasonally and what does that mean for us as a family and why is it that we only get to leave the farm over winter and when everyone else is taking summer holidays, we're at our busiest time.
00:44:04
Speaker
um So there's all these seasonal lessons that they learn and they know that there's unnegotiables as far as me just having to get some jobs done and everything else has to stop into until the job's done as far as um say that the amount of time that I can give them so it comes in fits and spurts and I think they're valuable lessons as well. But overall as far as parenting goes
00:44:32
Speaker
and I know it's probably not healthy in life to have regrets, but if if someone did ask me, do I have a regret? that And not just in parenting, but across my whole life, my biggest regret would not be homeschooling my children.
00:44:49
Speaker
And I say that because the more I've gone down the path of my own self-exploration and a simplifying and um a more enriched seasonal life, I see what a deep delving by children into screens and the worst parts of, I won't say the worst parts, but some parts of the consumer Western society, I can see what it's taken for my children.
00:45:19
Speaker
and Look, don't get me wrong, I've got great kids and um they've done cool stuff and overall they make really good decisions and we lead an amazing life here. but I think that by not homescalling them, um there's a whole bunch of but baggage that they've essentially had thrust upon them from a consumeristic Western point of view that they invariably will have to unpack as they they get older. um And so, you know, it's a first world problem, isn't it? But I just see the richness of um
00:45:56
Speaker
how some other children are raised when they're homeschooled. But it's easy for me to say that um because I don't know how, given what we've bitten off on the farm and what Jade and I do, where I would have found time to homeschool them anyway, so.
00:46:11
Speaker
a tough It's an easy thing to say. So maybe it's not a regret, it's just a comment. But um yeah, so I'm in awe of what I see from some homeschooled kids and kids that are purposefully um given restricted or no access to screens, which my kids didn't have until they were teenagers, mind you. But yeah, once they get phones, there's no going back. Yeah.
00:46:37
Speaker
Yeah, thanks for the candid response and reflections. I know you have done, particularly with the boys, some alternate, you know, rites of passage stuff. And I wonder if you could offer a couple of examples of where you and your sons have really bonded in that kind of deep time, deep nature, connected way. Yeah, so I was real fortunate and it was part of my journey as well, not just a journey with much my children, so in the first instance with my sons. um So Bertie, um who's one of my twins, we went away on a Rott passage course that was run by an institute called Pathways Institute, which is very sadly now folded. It was a not-for-profit and they did amazing work on on culture.
00:47:25
Speaker
and so you spend a week on this rites of passage process and it for me was a ah transformational event because one is very rare to be able to spend a whole week with a child where it's just a two of you in particular when it's a twin but what's even more rare is to do it in a facilitated way where you you actually ah more on the loss of your child and and welcome the arrival of a young man so that is that rites of passage process um and it mimics a lot of traditional ways that um well in this case men but they also do rites of passage for women that cultures have
00:48:12
Speaker
ah made that transition from boyhood to manhood or from girl to womanhood. And I found it very emotional and I found it very bonding for my with each of my sons. So I then went on and did it with Harry as well.
00:48:28
Speaker
And it's just, it's created a depth of connection that there's always just this this thing there that we've got um that I know I can just bring up with them again. And it was now four years ago, but it's a very visceral, deep experience. And yeah, as I said, that then led me also to want to explore deeper um ceremonial experiences for myself, um for my own growth.
Incorporating Rituals and Men's Circles
00:48:53
Speaker
And I think that's beneficial for my family and then ultimately also for my community. And I'm in awe of communities that do this for themselves. So Castlemaine and Victoria is just incredible because they run their own Rots of Passage program, which I know you're aware of. And I think people undertaking culture for people or by people for their own people is just next level again. And it's just a beautiful, important process. So what's happened with that group in Castlemaine, I'm just amazed by and I'd love to work at building something for us in the Northeast that's similar because I ah consider that some of the most important work that can be undertaken.
00:49:40
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I know a lot of it is not secret, but sacred. So we don't necessarily um speak of a whole lot of details, but just as a kind of simple articulation of what these processes are about. It comes back for me that we're a tribal species. So we have evolved for not an odd percent of our evolutionary history in in tribal bands, a very close relationship ah to
00:50:13
Speaker
groups of people, 40 or 50 people. So, and undertaking the rights of passage process was an immersion back into part of that evolutionary environment that sits deep inside us. And I think most people um know what it's like when when you're part of a group that's doing some really cool stuff and it just feels good.
00:50:36
Speaker
so there's There's that group component. So it wasn't just about me being there with my son. It was me being there with a whole bunch of other dads and their sons. And you spend a lot of time with the other sons, and probably more time with the other sons than I spent with my own son. Likewise, my son spent a lot of time with other dads. And then there's a lot of time spent in circle, in a ceremonial circle.
00:51:01
Speaker
And the circle shape is important because no one's at the head. Everyone's equally spaced around the circle. and There's often a fire in the middle. and There's a chance for young men to listen to older men without judgment or without lessons to talk about their experience and how they found their teenage years. And they talk about issues around sexuality. They talk about issues around partners and relationships. They talk about issues with drug dependency and alcohol. They talk about issues with pornography and all of these trials and tribulations that
00:51:42
Speaker
that kids never probably really hear adults being honest and open about and it allows children to form a sense that it's okay to be imperfect and i've made I may have made mistakes and I may well make them in the future but I'm looking at these beautiful adults um that are imperfect as well and they're sharing their stories so And ah that that storytelling without judgment and without fixing but just sharing is incredibly powerful and I think it's something that we've we've done since the dawn of time as a species. So I think that's the power of it is being in community, being vulnerable, being open and allowing children to see that. And I think in our current culture the
00:52:32
Speaker
The surplus of energy that we have means that we can get away with not having these uncomfortable moments because we've got energy to fill the void. We don't rely as much on other people and community. So putting yourselves in these situations, I think, um is a step back from that and reminds us of what it truly means to be human and how you can actually grow as a human. But then also,
00:53:00
Speaker
There's a component of rites of passage which is about trial and I won't go into the detail of what the trial is and it varies for different rites of passage but learning boundaries or pushing boundaries more to the point um for teenagers is really important and if it's not done in a curated way they'll find ways of testing themselves by drug abuse and speeding and other dangerous things so creating experiences that's in a ah certain container but still mega challenging from them for them is something that we've done since day dot as far as um you know putting children in the wilderness and seeing how they cope by themselves in nature. um that That's part of it too and I think that that's all really important um rich um human building um processes. Beautiful imagery and offerings there.
00:53:55
Speaker
So having having tasted that enlivening, that sweetness of being in the village, in circle, having those experiences in is one thing and then coming back to real life is quite another. Have you found ways of seeding some of that ceremony and deep connection in your day-to-day life on the farm and in your wider community?
00:54:20
Speaker
Yeah it's a really pertinent question because I've done a few other similar things not necessarily with my kids but other things where I've gone away and which has given me time with people in in ceremony and I always find it challenging coming back because I want to hold on to a really large component of what I experienced with those people and it's I find it always so challenging to to hold on to it. I did a a week away a few months ago. We did a lot of ceremonial work and I came back and I didn't want to shower and I hadn't showered the whole week I'd been away.
00:55:02
Speaker
And I felt like if I came home and showered, I felt like I was i was washing it off, like I was removing the week and sharing just seemed like such a a clear demarcation between what I'd just experienced and coming back to the realities of life. You know, wash it away, Charlie, and get back into it all. um So I actually put it off for a few days until Jade said, oh,
00:55:25
Speaker
yeah You might actually want to have a shower because you kind of smell it. Yeah, we've been doing sweat lodge and all sorts of stuff. so um But i just I felt good. um Yeah, I find it really challenging. That's such a good question, Katie, because I wish I could bring more of it in. But ah it's hard. um you It's hard when you've got kids at school and you you come back. And I'm quite emotional when I come back from such things.
00:55:54
Speaker
um And I definitely feel like as I'm wired back into the you know the drudgery of normal life, and not that my life's that drudginess on the farm, it's still beautiful components, but yeah, I'm definitely searching for ways of incorporating more of it. yeah I have a regular men's circle here now at the farm with with other local guys, which which is great. So we're you know introducing that sense of ceremony. um And we do other little things you know around the farm and our seasonal ceremonies that we do it are definitely lovely.
00:56:27
Speaker
um And I still enjoy time by myself, you know, sitting and reflecting and observing and interacting in my orchard, which is one of the, I think, the most beautiful permaculture principle. um and I find that mindfulness really important as well. And I find important for me, but also important for me as a farmer, just to be sitting and purposefully not doing anything, but just observing. And I find that.
00:56:58
Speaker
um a lovely process as well but yeah I definitely want to and this is part of my challenge as I yeah go into eldership is wanting to introduce more of that ceremony into my life on the farm um and with my community and people around me and for people who want to engage more in that so yeah that's definitely a and a component of our life that's that's in process and we're trying to do more of Jade Runs Women's Circles as well um here with a close group of um friends and acquaintances. um Yeah so there's definitely components we bring in but yeah look it's it's a far cry from those peak experiences that you have away and of course they're always going to be
00:57:48
Speaker
hard to try and permanently exist in life like that and I know there's some people that do and I imagine for a lot of indigenous cultures that were just constantly in that state and I that That's what I wrestle with, because I think that's what it truly means to be human. but So I get these little glimpses of it. You know, I'd do it for a week here and there. I can only imagine what it'd be like if you'd lived all your life like that, let alone do it for months on end. So the richness and the feeling out of that, I just find so incredible. um Yeah, so I feel like it definitely, late there's there's a hole.
00:58:26
Speaker
Yeah, but I don't try to dwell on the whole. I guess I probably try to dwell on how I yeah use it to enrich the the rest of my life. Yeah, yeah. Maybe we're not quite fit enough to sustain those high intensity intervals as yet. We need to gradually increase our capacity for awe and wonderment gently, gently, otherwise we might melt.
00:58:51
Speaker
um Yep, I agree. like A question I have, Charlie, like I was just thinking about this today, actually. yeah Talking about these incredible, special, beautifully facilitated experiences, and then you know how you might bring them back as someone who has has been part of them, but not necessarily been like formally trained as a ceremony leader or anything. like What is the line between wanting to just pick up that thread and bring it um and experiment and kind of call people together and then also knowing that it's really important work and you you may need some training or level of experience in holding that space because some really big feelings and big things can come up. So I don't know what your perspective on like, should you just kind of start a circle and give it a crack or how do you cultivate enough like wisdom and equanimity in yourself to be that initiating force?
00:59:48
Speaker
Yes, so by no means do I i consider myself qualified enough. like I've seen some incredible work by people that have spent a lot of time learning how to facilitate um ceremony.
01:00:04
Speaker
um And it's it's a skill and it it needs to be recognised as such. And I'm in awe of people that have committed a lot of time to build that skill. And it's something I definitely want to work on and that I see myself moving into. And how do you start doing these processes safely and um without that level of, you know, huge cultural um investment. So I think circles are a perfect way to start because you can bite off as much depth as you and the other people partaking in your circle are willing to go. Naturally coming into circle with people, you can choose how far you want to take that. um
01:00:52
Speaker
So the men's circle that I run here, well, I don't run it as in what we collectively run it. um So I'm no more of a leader other than the fact that it's done on my property than everyone else. We share responsibilities so in the circle. um And there's some great organizations around that will help facilitate even the start of those. So we based the circle on a fantastic group called Men's Table, which is a not-for-profit, which is purely um just a an organisation that seeks to get more men in um circle time.
01:01:35
Speaker
So they have ah ways and procedures of you starting your own circle with the help of another um people from other circles. um And they have a range of documents that help give you some guidelines around things that you should and shouldn't do in circle time.
01:01:54
Speaker
So, I'd say just just start with a circle. um Look up organisations like Men's Table, and there's lots of others. And there's some really amazing organisations. I'm going down to Menergi, which is a men's gathering in a few weeks' time in down in Lekola.
01:02:09
Speaker
um And I think that's a great place for people to start as well, because you you can, there's all these different workshops you can do there and you can dive into as much or as little as you want to do. Yeah, look, I'm still exploring a lot of this. And for me, it's essentially still pretty new. You know, I've only been doing it four or five years and I sort of dip into it and dip out of it. Yes, I had to say, throw yourself in because it's what we're born to do. And it's such an amazing experience. Just feel with your heart and you can't go
Self-Care and Solitude
01:02:39
Speaker
wrong.
01:02:39
Speaker
A question that would often be presented to a woman, I feel, is like around self-care. But I wonder, knowing your um proclivity for what waking up at 4am and just getting a whole bunch of shit done even before the workday starts, I did wonder, Charlie, how it is that you rest and recharge and take care of yourself. I know for sure that you're not a big fan of hot showers and bubble baths. So what are some other ways that you're like doing man self care? Well, I'm a, I'm a true introvert. And by that, I mean, it doesn't mean I don't like being around people. I spend a lot of time around people.
01:03:20
Speaker
But for me to recharge, I need to be by myself. And from my understanding, that's the true definition and the distinction between introvert and extrovert. And of course, it's a spectrum, but I'm definitely more on the the introverted side of the seesaw, let's say. Whereas extroverted people, ah and Jade, is this to a certain degree?
01:03:43
Speaker
they They recharge, they get more energy by being around people. so For me, being around people all the time actually reduces my energy. um so For me, an important part of self-care is time by myself. and I have the luxury of being able to do that on the farm.
01:04:06
Speaker
and I love that time. I really, and I need that time. I love the time to think. I love the time. to sit and observe and just be by myself. So as long as I get a little bit of that every now and again, then I'm fine. And I i definitely notice when I don't get it, and when I've been around and people too long, then I just start to, yeah I find it difficult. and I need to have just a little bit of time to retreat by myself. so
01:04:40
Speaker
That's why I find early mornings amazing because there's no one else around. I have this beautiful time. I've always loved it. it's all My favourite time of the day is first thing in the morning and I think because most people are asleep, I feel like there's this sense of exclusivity to it. um you're getting to experience something that's that's rare. um There's magical things happening. It's just, and the start of a day is so hopeful. Yeah, so I really revel in that. And for whatever reason, I've just always been an early riser, which also means I go to bed very early, um which
01:05:22
Speaker
isn't very good socially because I get very tired. and In fact, I don't know if I'll discuss this with you, I think I have, but ah there's actually a word or there's a um pathology for what I have called advanced sleep phase disorder, which is just a stupid way of saying ah you like to go to bed early and wake up early, but it's pathologised in Western society because it means you can't do things at night. So I go to sleep Like clockwork, I get tired two hours after it gets dark. So that's fine in summer because I'm still good, you know, 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock at night. But in winter, you know, it's dark 5.36 o'clock. I'm spent by eight o'clock. I'm ready to go to sleep. And then I sleep like a log and I'm seven hours sleep. But when you go to bed at eight o'clock at night, it means you're getting up very early in the morning. um But for me, yeah, I love that.
01:06:13
Speaker
that time that's very important for me. I did work in ski resorts for a lot of years and I used to do snow reporting and um which always meant I was up very early in the morning to do the snow report and we used to do a live cross one morning a week. I'd have to be back at the the ski resort at 5 30 in the morning And I ah just I loved it because there's no one around apart from the snowmakers and the groomers. And for a place that gets so busy in the middle of the day, I loved the contrast and I loved experiencing the contrast. Just that quietness for a place that in a few hours time will be seething with people. So I just I really enjoy that too.
01:06:54
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So to wrap up, Charlie, I'd love to ask you specifically about skills and resilience, because this is the sweet spot that we're hitting here on the Reskillience podcast. And you've got three teenagers there under one roof, and they're entering a future that may be super uncertain. So for those kids,
01:07:18
Speaker
who you've been stewarding up until now and who may be flying the coop, what kind of things are you either telling them or hoping in your heart that they will be developing to really help them weather what's coming? This has been an area of reflection for me and one that I've probably changed my tune on over the past five years. So undoubtedly, I think The most important skill is how we get along with others in groups.
01:07:52
Speaker
because everything stems from that and I think it's a skill that we've lost as we were talking about before in Western consumer culture because it entails hard conversations and uncomfortable conversations and it's just easier to sideline those and there's a lot bound up in in grief as well and death and all of these complex things that are better done as groups and better done with the hard conversations and tough conversations. And this is why I think ceremony is so important because it helps facilitate all of that. So ah one of the most important skill that I'd love to pass on to my kids, which has taken me a long time to lean into and discover, is that skill of exploring true depth of relationship with other people, not just intimate people, but that the the your immediate family and then your community
01:08:48
Speaker
and exploring the depths of of what that can be like and learning tools to to manage conflict, um like nonviolent communication and um sociocracy and all of these amazing um examples. And there's millions of them um that that show ways of where people work together and work together to be stronger because, like you mentioned,
01:09:14
Speaker
things are going to become tougher and we're going to become more reliant on those around us and we will just get so much more done if we're all skilled in being in and around people. So for me that that's the most important thing and I used to think it was food growing because you've got to eat but um of course those hard skills of food growing are important but um and you know fixing things and mending things and all of those things but prior to that is just the importance of being in and around people and in and around and building culture. um but We're now going to experience what that's like because it's very hard to build culture until you have to and we're now finding that we have to um
01:09:59
Speaker
So I find that exciting as much as it's daunting. I find it exciting that there'll be times when we have to rely on other people more like isn't that a special and beautiful thing because we're so used to not doing it. that There's a great book by ah I'm going to get his name wrong. It's called anti-fragile. You might know it. And I love that that thought that that that there's no word for the the opposite of fragile um because it's not resilient and it's not strong because that's not enough. um The opposite of fragile, as the book explains, as you would know, that it's something that gets stronger as it gets stressed.
01:10:41
Speaker
um which is anti-fragile that we don't actually have a word for it. So it'd be awesome if we could actually develop a word which is more meaningful than anti-fragile. But and I see that with communities that communities that get shocked and they get stressed but they come together and you see it with little communities after bushfires um and I know there's been a lot of communities that have really struggled with bushfires there's bonds that are forged and relationships that are forged out of trials and tribulations. It's hard to do otherwise and that's a component I see of anti-fragility is and if the skills of their communities get stressed but they get stronger from the stress and for me that's something I find really exciting and yeah I'm looking forward to exploring more.
01:11:27
Speaker
i I love that answer. And I don't want to say it gives me hope because I vividly remember you talking about Hopium being something that we shouldn't necessarily hook to our veins, but it does give us something to work with beyond the kind of catastrophic thinking around things falling apart because we need to factor in this strengthening that happens when there is that pressure placed on us. And as you have spoken to in this conversation, we also have the embers of village and connection still burning within us that just need some fanning and possibly see those roar into life when circumstances change. So I really, really appreciate you speaking to that relationship opportunity that we all have and like the treasures that exist when we um get really curious about what
01:12:17
Speaker
is going on for other people and how we can come alive in relationship, which is obviously how the rest of the world works. Yeah, so beautiful, Charlie. And I could just continue this conversation, but I know you have so much to do there at Black Barn. And yeah, I'm wondering if there's anything that I primed you for that I haven't asked that you just had like such a cracking answer to that um you'd like to share.
01:12:41
Speaker
I know that's not so much a cracking answer. And usually in this stage, I wouldn't put anything forward. But I want to raise something that came across for me. um I only came across it in the last week. And for me, it has been a revelation. And I don't know if you've heard, you probably would have come across a lot of things. But I'd never come across it before. ah This is really done with me to bring something up that I can't even give the word to now.
01:13:09
Speaker
Okay, I'm just interjecting for a sec here. Charlie is talking about ask versus guess culture, which was right on the tip of his tongue, but not quite articulated. It's a seriously cool framing and explainer for so many things in life. And like Charlie, I had a massive a heart moment realizing that I'm a guesser and how that has played out in my relationships. So please see the show notes for links that expand on this idea. Back to Charlie.
01:13:34
Speaker
But anyway, it it it but provided a framework that allowed me to realise that there's people who experience the world in very different ways, and it's opened my eyes to the fact that the way I see the world can be very different to the way, obviously, other people see the world. And I know that sounds stupid. It's this framework but that made me realise that for me, when I'm in relationship with someone, um I will often, if there's something I want, I don't necessarily just straight out ask for it because that for me would be rude um because if they're not ready
01:14:14
Speaker
Or if they don't want to provide the answer that I'm asking for, then I wouldn't want to put them in that situation. Whereas a lot of other people would just ask, and if they say no, then they're fine. But that's not how I operate, and there's lots of cultures that operate like that, a lot of more Asian cultures.
01:14:31
Speaker
um and traditional cultures, a result of Western culture, um people will just ask. They'll just ask for something and that that they won't be ah offended if the person says no. I'll give you some links to put in the um the podcast notes because and there's some amazing articles on it and for me it's been mind-blowing and it's really helped me understand one, my relationship with my wife, but two, with other people. um it's It's been completely illuminating for me. So yeah, anyway, that's something I just wanted to share.
01:15:02
Speaker
Yeah, awesome. Thank you for bringing that in and it's nice to have something to go on with. Yeah, I haven't heard of that, Charlie. It was very gracious of you to assume that I may have, but no, that is completely new to me and I'd love to see any links that you send my way. Yeah, just want to thank you so much for spending this time with me and with all of us. You're bringing such a beautiful melding of practical, grounded stuff with, I don't know, mystery of life. I think that's a a great fusion that you've you've offered us. And I'm excited to see where you you get to in your own explorations of that realm. So thanks for sharing that that process with us. Well, thanks for having me, Katie. And yeah, I look forward to exploring more of it in the future and exploring more of it with with you and with Jordy as well.
01:15:52
Speaker
Yeah, thanks Charlie. That was Charlie Showers from Black Barn Farm. And there are tons of links to interesting things we touched on in the show notes. Just so you know, Charlie and Jade sell heritage fruit trees each winter. So if you're keen on rare and richly storied fruits from folks who grow the healthiest specimens under the sun, make a note in your calendar for April 2025 when their next orders open up.
01:16:20
Speaker
all Alright, time for some shout outs. Three cheers to everyone on Patreon who is supporting the production of this show. I didn't start the podcast with any expectation other than to have fun, challenge myself creatively, and share emergent conversations with people who are responding in wise and inspiring ways to our modern predicament. But I was probably a bit naive about how much time it would take me, which is upwards of 20 hours per episode, and also how many ears it would reach. I really do believe that conversations have power, that they're a place where humans can nut things out and dream things up, that within this cauldron of intimacy we can shift our beliefs and culture and trajectory.
01:17:03
Speaker
I'm absolutely stoked that so many of you are feeling this value and magic too. And while it will always be free to listen to resilience, some of you are going the extra mile to fund this work, to be part of a community model of financial support in which we all chip in a little bit so that more anti-capitalist creative ventures can continue without having to sell out.
01:17:22
Speaker
So to my patrons, I am immensely grateful that you're paying me to do this. Just wow. We're all hanging out at patreon dot.com forward slash resilience. Special mention to Joe Oldfield, who is the show's newest patron and has already suggested some cracker local guests and themes. Thanks for your goodwill and engagement, Joe.
01:17:45
Speaker
If you want to support the show in another way, the best thing you can do is to leave a written review on iTunes. They're absolute gold. Well, thanks so much for listening to episode 29 of Resculience with Charlie Showers and catch you real soon.