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Episode 4: For the love of trees and water
60 Plays4 days ago
Season 3 of Branching Out: The Forest Podcast, hosted by Gerda Wolfrum from IUFRO HQ, explores how IUFRO scientists work across disciplines to address emerging issues through Task Forces. In the fourth episode, we discuss the relationship between forests, water, livelihoods and governance, including the vital importance of forests for the quality and quantity of drinking water.
Hear from Task Force co-leads Mingfang Zhang from the University of Electronic Science and Technology of China, and Nadeem Shah from Forest Research, Great Britain, along with co-host Lubna Anfaresi from the International Forestry Students’ Association (IFSA), joining from Indonesia.
Tune in to Branching Out: the forest podcast! Listen on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to follow us!
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Hosts
00:00:07
Speaker
As a forest hydrologist, I love working with trees and with water, and I consider myself very privileged to be working in this field.
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello everyone, I'm your host Gerda Wolfram from the International Union of Forest Research Organizations, IUFRO, the global network for forest science collaboration.
00:00:34
Speaker
You're listening to the fourth episode of season three of Branching Out, the Forest Podcast.
Season Focus and Previous Episode Recap
00:00:39
Speaker
It's great to have you with us as we explore more forest science. In this season, we will find out how scientists in our EUFRO work across disciplines to tackle emerging topics.
00:00:52
Speaker
This work takes place in our 13 task forces. In the previous episode, we talked about advancing gender equity, diversity and inclusion agendas in forest-related sectors.
Forest and Water Relationship Overview
00:01:04
Speaker
This time, we will look at the vital relationship between forests and water and how it connects to people's livelihoods and decision-making. I'm pleased to welcome my co-host Lubna Anferesi.
00:01:18
Speaker
Lubna is head of the sub-commission for IUFRO with the International Forestry Students Association, IFSA. Lubna, please introduce yourself. Hello everyone, I'm Lubnan Foresi and I'm from Indonesia. Just like what Gerda said, I'm from IFSA as head of sub-communication of IFRO.
00:01:40
Speaker
And I'm studying forestry and environment in Indonesia in IPB University. Nice to meet you.
Guest Introductions and Backgrounds
00:01:50
Speaker
Thank you Lubna, welcome to Branching Out and welcome especially to our guests Mingfang Zhang and Nadim Shah from the IUFO Task Force on the Forest Water Livelihood Governance Nexus.
00:02:04
Speaker
Let us continue our introductions with Mingfang who is the Task Force Coordinator. Can you tell us a bit about your career path, your research interests, and how you are involved with Ayufro?
00:02:16
Speaker
You also co-authored an Ayufro-led global assessment on forests and water back in 2018, right? ah Hello, everyone. ah I am Minfang Zhang from China, and I have got my PhD degree in environmental science in the University of British Columbia,
00:02:35
Speaker
And after that, I was back to China and I'm now working in the University of in Electronic Science and the Technology of China. And I started the interactions among forest, water and the climate, as well as watershed and management and the remote sensing applications in forest hydrology.
00:02:58
Speaker
And i have become task force members for the two previous Euphra task forces. The first one is forest, soil, water interactions from 2015 2019.
00:03:15
Speaker
And the second is forest and water interactions in a changing environment from 2020 to 2025. And the now I lead the task force, Forest Water Livelihood Governors and Nexus for the next five years.
Water-Related Services of Forests
00:03:31
Speaker
Thank you, Mingfang. We'd love no to hear about you. And Nadim, your academic and professional background, your research focus, and your work as Task Force DPD coordinator in IEFRO.
00:03:44
Speaker
Hi, Lubna, Gerda, Minfang. Firstly, thanks for the invitation to take part in this Branching Out podcast. and My name is Nadeem Shah. I'm Senior Hydrologist with Forest Research, which is the research agency of the Forestry Commission. He's in Great Britain.
00:03:59
Speaker
I'm based in Scotland, just south of Edinburgh at the Northern Research Station and I previously worked at the University of Sheffield on groundwater protection and restoration. Since joining Forest Research, my role is mainly about investigating the effects of forests and forestry and water quality on water resources and there's quite a variety of research areas that that we're working on.
00:04:23
Speaker
ah quite A significant part of the work is providing expert advice on challenging forest hydrology questions to the government forestry departments. In terms of UFRO, I first got involved as a reviewer on the Global Assessment Report, which you've mentioned, that was back in 2018. And then later that same year, I joined the Forest and Water Task Force. I was in Chile at the Forest and Water Conference there.
00:04:48
Speaker
And since then, I've had the many fruitful interactions with the task force. Last year, Ming Fang kindly invited me to be a Deputy Coordinator for the new Task Force, and I was very happy to take on this role. And we've already had a wonderful Forest and Water Conference in Beijing, where also had a dedicated Task Force meeting.
00:05:06
Speaker
And we've got many more interesting events and and collaborations planned.
Impact of Environmental Changes on Water Resources
00:05:11
Speaker
As a forest hydrologist, I love working with trees and with water, and I consider myself very privileged to be working in this field.
00:05:20
Speaker
Thank you so much, both of you. What impressive careers. Let us now dive a little bit deeper into the topic you already mentioned, forests and water. So at Minfang, we all know that water is essential for life on Earth, and it is central to all of the 17 Sustainable Development Goals.
00:05:40
Speaker
Can you explain, if possible in simple terms, the role of forests in providing water and other water-related services for people? Yes, and as we know forests, they are featured with canipers, leachers, roots, and porous soils.
00:05:58
Speaker
So they can intercept the rainfall, slowing the rainfall down so the water soaps into the ground rather than running off rapidly. They can also improve soil permeability.
00:06:12
Speaker
abilities allowing water to recharge aquifers and ground waters. That's the major source of drinking and the irrigation water. Forest action like the natural reservoirs and their filters that we can capture, store, filter and release water while supporting ecosystems and livelihoods.
00:06:38
Speaker
So we can see forests actually play a very important role in regulating the freshwater ecosystems and supplying critical water-related ecosystems human societies.
Strategies for Forest-Water System Resilience
00:06:53
Speaker
The livelihoods of more than a quarter of the world's population depend on forests, especially those zoosal communities in developing countries.
00:07:05
Speaker
So we can see that forests can actually provide water-related ecosystem services including water supply, water purification, flood control and sediment control, climate or regulation,
00:07:21
Speaker
water and society and indigenous values. And forests can also mitigate against extreme climates like flooding,
00:07:33
Speaker
droughts, and landslide risk. So that can help us to sustain crops and livestock production.
Challenges of the Forest-Water-Livelihood-Governance Nexus
00:07:41
Speaker
yeah So as we can see, many livelihoods are actually dependent on these sectors.
00:07:51
Speaker
Okay, thank you, Mingfang. Now, I understand that forests are very important for water supply, for purification, and the most important is our livelihood. it's not and It's not only important for the environment, but also for the human.
00:08:08
Speaker
And now, I want to go to Nadim. So the ecosystem services we just heard depend on healthy forests. But forests are increasingly under stress, including climate and land use change, droughts, wildfires, pests, and disease.
00:08:24
Speaker
All this has negative impacts on water and peoples like Sejos. And what do you think the negative consequence what and what can we do to make this forest water people system more resilient?
00:08:39
Speaker
Are there major regional differences and what can science do? Okay, thanks. So now there's quite a few questions here, so I'll try and break it down a little bit. So there are a number of negative impacts and perhaps the most important one is the disruption to the drcu but the potential disruption to the drinking water supply.
00:08:57
Speaker
Many people rely on forested catchments for the drinking water and and water quality generally is quite high from forested catchments, even from plantation forests, especially when you compare it against other land uses such as agriculture or urban development.
00:09:12
Speaker
Now, forest loss, whether it's through natural events or through language change, can severely impact water quality. And we've seen this in many parts of the world. For example, the palm plantations in Southeast Asia.
00:09:24
Speaker
We've seen forest clearance for livestock farming in South America or even coffee production in Africa. All of this can affect the ecosystem health, but also people's health and their livelihoods. And their studies have shown that deforestation in Malawi, for example, led to a decrease in access to clean drinking water, mainly due to poorer water quality and also increased treatment water treatment costs. So very important to maintain and this high water quality.
00:09:49
Speaker
Forest removal can also lead to a decrease of water available. And we know that generally speaking, wisdom is that local water yield, but in some areas, water yield has been shown to decrease.
00:10:02
Speaker
And so there's currently quite a lot of interesting research in this area. As for what science, and what we can do, and what science can do to make this forest water people system more resilient, well, one obvious solution would be to stop deforestation and the failing that, we can increase resilience by improved forest this management.
00:10:21
Speaker
For example, we can limit large-scale disturbances in drinking water catchments. And whether it's natural or planted forests, we can limit the percentage of the forest removed at any one time in the watershed or in the catchment.
00:10:34
Speaker
And this will reduce the water quality impacts. And we've shown this in some of our research in the UK. We can also utilize low-impact techniques and machinery to limit soil disturbance.
00:10:46
Speaker
And yes, there are regional differences because we have different forest types, we have different rainfall patterns, meteorology, and we also, as so we have to account for these in our management strategies.
00:10:57
Speaker
And finally, of course, resilience also requires considering the social aspect. And this is actually something that other members of the task force, they're much more qualified than myself to speak about this. but But one thing I would say is that it's recommended to increase the community's understanding of the merit of forest protection for water, how important it is, as well as the participation in protecting the forest and water resources.
Forest Management with a Water Priority in China
00:11:22
Speaker
So essentially, we need to get people interested and get them involved.
00:11:27
Speaker
Thank you, Nadim. So apparently there are very severe impacts, as you say, both to the quality and the quantity of water that is available when we lose forests. And the quality of water, of course, has, as you're saying, impacts on health, not only on ecosystem health, but also on people's health. So I think ah it's important that we pay more attention to the sustainable management of forest landscapes for water-related ecosystem services and more attention, as you said, to make communities understand the importance of forests for water.
00:12:05
Speaker
So my next question goes to Ming Fang. What key factors must be considered when water is the primary objective of forest management? And what other objectives are there?
00:12:17
Speaker
Are they synergistic or a conflicting with water objectives? Do you have perhaps one or two concrete examples that you could briefly highlight? Actually, this is a very complex question.
00:12:30
Speaker
So, forest management strategies are designed to boost some water yield by balancing vegetation cover, soil conditions, hydrologic process, and in landscape structures, while maintaining long-term water stability.
00:12:48
Speaker
I think the first factor we need to consider is the selection of tree species and standard compositions. And we must select ah appropriate tree species and the standard compositions to minimize evatotranspirations.
00:13:05
Speaker
So the priorities will be given to low transpiration tree species over the water-intensive species to reduce the evaporation of the forest dams and to leave more water in soils and streams.
00:13:21
Speaker
So in particular, way we need to avoid dense monocultures of highly watered-minding tree species. tra species And also we are trying to use native, throat-resistant species that to maintain ecosystem function without consuming more water.
00:13:41
Speaker
And the second factor, I think, is about the management of forest density. And the we need conduct selective sealing or pruning to reduce stand density, leaves and branches, which reduce total leaf area and average respirations, and increasing the surface runoff and a groundwater reach.
00:14:06
Speaker
And the third factor we will consider is protection of the litter and the soil layers in the forest. And preserving the litter layer and topsoil structures will help us to improve water absorption and reduce rapid surface runoff.
00:14:27
Speaker
So in forestry operations, we usually recommend it to minimize soil compaction from the heavy machines, logging tracks, and overgraving.
00:14:38
Speaker
And the four factors about the riparian zone management. It's encouraged to establish and maintain riparian buffer strips along the streams, lakes and his reservoirs to regulate flow, built-in sediment and sustain base flow.
00:14:58
Speaker
and and Another very important factor is that the forest management must be in alignment with watershed management. That means the forest management boundaries should be the watershed boundaries, and the management and unit of forestry must be hydrologic units, such as the catchments with the focus of the headwater catchments, which are critical sources of springs, stream flow, and highly sensitive to vegetation changes.
00:15:36
Speaker
And about the examples, I think I will give examples I'm most familiar with you in China. And as you may be all familiar familiar with, China has the largest areas of plantation in the world.
00:15:52
Speaker
And one of the most important Important place is in Lois Plantos that belongs to Sini Arid Aramures. So in that place, we have launched large-scale re-vegetation program that's called the conversion of cropland to forest programs.
00:16:13
Speaker
So after that program, we found that large-scale forest plantations significantly increase the evaporations but decrease the stream flow in the rivers and streams in some watershed.
00:16:31
Speaker
So the water resource capacities for vegetation growth in most of the watershed in these regions have reached a limit. and There is strong water conflicts between ecosystems and a human society.
Governance and Global Interdependencies in Forest Management
00:16:49
Speaker
And now, so the forest management strategies focus on conserving water for improving water-related ecosystem services in this basis.
00:17:01
Speaker
Our major aim is to reduce the evaporation of trees. So the practices including carefully designed thinning to adjust the standard density, replacing tree species such as Chinese pine of high water consumption with black locus, that's deciduous species with lower water consumption.
00:17:27
Speaker
And also, we found that climate change now is shifting our management strategies. Forest risk management strategies tend to move from water-based object to mulch objective.
00:17:43
Speaker
We need consider biodiversity as well. As we know, plantation is often featured with single species with simple forest-stand structures, thus reduced biodiversity.
00:17:59
Speaker
So the planted forests often lack the zinness and can be very sensitive to climate extremes such as heat waves and droughts.
00:18:11
Speaker
So the hydrological services provided by these forests were greatly degraded and unpredictable. So forest managers are starting to look for practices to enhance both water services and the biodiversity of forests and to improve the forest resilience to adapt to climate change.
00:18:36
Speaker
Thank you, wonderful, Ming Fan. I love that when you say that climate change is reshaping our forest management, especially in the water management in the forest, that we need to manage not only the water, but also the biodiversity itself. And um as Ming Fan said, there's a lot of forest management techniques, including like the biology one and that the technical one or the self-culture one. And now I want to know the perspective from Nadim again.
00:19:08
Speaker
The relationship between forest, water likelihood, and governance is highly complex right now because it cuts across disciplines, boundaries, and sectors.
00:19:19
Speaker
So to be able to make a good decision, it is important to understand this complexity.
Task Force Goals and Global Collaboration
00:19:26
Speaker
But what happens if we don't understand this connection well?
00:19:30
Speaker
What can go wrong? Can you give a decision in one place, have impacts in other faraway places, for example? Yes, you're right Lubina, we need to try to understand this complexity between forest, water likelihoods and governance. And I would say we have a lot of work to do in this area, which is why things do go wrong in some place. For example, just this year a paper was published, which showed how transboundary deforestation across Nepal and India has led to increased soil erosion flooding downstream by quite some distance from the actual deforestation itself.
00:20:07
Speaker
And this of course affects the health of people and their livelihoods. What was really interesting is that the study concluded that fragmented governance and weak cross-border coordination hindered effective responses.
00:20:21
Speaker
So this I think really highlights the importance of the work of our task force and the need for us to improve our understanding of this forest water livelihood governance connection. and also to help towards implementing real solutions on the ground.
00:20:35
Speaker
I mean, we can always write papers, reports, and which are useful, of course, but what we really want to see is benefits on the ground to people's health and to their livelihoods.
00:20:46
Speaker
And I hope the task force can help towards that. and Another example is from the work of our Taxi Task Force members and it concerns the River Nile. We know that much of the runoff, perhaps even 80% or more, reaching Egypt comes from precipitation that falls in the Ethiopian highlands.
00:21:05
Speaker
Now, if we have continued deforestation in the West African tropical rainforest, that can then impact rainfall to the Ethiopian highlands and therefore potentially disrupt Egypt's water supply.
00:21:18
Speaker
So that's an impact in one place having an effect and somewhere much further away. So this again highlights the need for governance and also particularly transboundary collaboration beyond the watershed or catchment boundaries.
00:21:31
Speaker
Well, as you say, Nadim, it's it's extremely important that people understand if they take a decision in one place, how this could affect the water management and the water availability in other places. So I think it's especially important for forest managers and for decision makers also to know and understand how their actions affect the water system. And and consequently, of course, the the livelihoods of people depending on it. And um now back to Mingfang and back to the task force and what it aims to achieve. So when you look ahead to 2029 and the Youth for World Congress in Kenya, what would you like to have accomplished or started as a task force?
00:22:14
Speaker
Okay, thank you, Jera. Our task force will continue to take a leading role globally in promoting future forest hydrology studies and the connecting forest water science with policy and the society under global changes.
00:22:30
Speaker
And our task force, as you may know, we have over 60 members with excellent combined expertise in forestry, hydrology, ecology, climate knowledge, aquatic science, soil science, social science, and the policy.
00:22:50
Speaker
And so the members are from over 40 countries with over 53% of the members from developed countries and about 47% from developing countries.
00:23:05
Speaker
So with such wonderful members, we are trying to aim to address the scientific knowledge gaps related to the forest water livelihood governance nexus, and try to identify the stakeholders and their information, the research needs and the settings, and work with them to facilitate cross-factors and cross-boundary governance of the forest water livelihood nexus.
00:23:34
Speaker
and to develop innovative transdisciplinary research and extension approaches and the management practices of new collaboration regimes to bridge management practices and science. Also, we are trying to build an international research network on the forest and water livelihood governance nexus.
00:24:00
Speaker
that can involve stakeholders, transdisciplinary researchers, and the science delivery experts from both forest and non-forest institutions organizations.
International Meetings and Research in Forest Hydrology
00:24:14
Speaker
So when it comes to the achievements that we expected to get before the 2029 Youth World Congress,
00:24:25
Speaker
ah We are trying to identify the emerging priorities of forest its hydrologic studies for the next five years, and we are also trying to establish a cross-disciplinary network that connects the natural and the social scientists for addressing the livelihood issues related to forest sub water and the climate nexus.
00:24:53
Speaker
And we are also trying to strengthen the collaborations with the Euphor divisions, non-Euphor organizations such as FAO, UNESCO, to bring science into practices and to promote the governance for the resilient forest water-climate human system.
00:25:14
Speaker
And we also want to launch as the International Forest Hydrologic Research Data Extreme Program and to promote forest of water studies, holistic designs, livelihoods, especially but in global South countries.
00:25:32
Speaker
Now, how about you, Nadim? Is there anything you would like to eat? Or are there any specific cast-force activities that you would like to highlight? like Yeah, I think that our international meetings are particularly valuable because they help us come together from different parts of the world with different issues, different forest types, different environmental conditions, different ideas. And we're learning from each other.
00:25:55
Speaker
I find it extremely uplifting and beneficial, not just for me as an individual, but I think as a collectivity, it's really beneficial. In fact, some of my own research ideas have developed. through this interaction with task force members and and discussions with them.
00:26:08
Speaker
And so I really encourage Lucia to get involved with IUFRO task forces. I also feel this is is a very exciting time for forest hydrologists and the task force. We are seeing some major advancements in our thinking in forest and water, and some would say it's like a paradigm shift.
00:26:23
Speaker
and particularly in relation to the effects of forests on precipitation, on rainfall and on global warming. Now this momentum has been building for some time and we've seen advancements in the area of so precipitation sheds, looking at precipitation sheds rather than just watersheds. We've weve seen advancements in how we look at the effects of forests on local and downwind rainfall.
00:26:45
Speaker
I mean, when I mentioned there evapotranspiration, how this can reduce the yield, the water yield, But there's a lot of research also now showing that forests help to increase water yield.
00:26:56
Speaker
Now this may be downwind, but some research also shows that there could be local effects. So very exciting times and research. There are also advancements in terms of the effects of forest and water quality, on how we can protect water quality, and on the effects of forests on surface albedo, ah how that affects global warming and cooling.
00:27:17
Speaker
And so that's really big, really important issues. and And I think we're we're going to see some major changes in how we view they' are all the role forest in the water cycle. And I'm pleased to see that many task force members are involved in and leading this research.
00:27:31
Speaker
And finally, I would say that I think we need to be open-minded, open-minded to accept new ideas and findings that may go against long established views or dogmas.
Key Takeaways: Collaboration in Forest Management
00:27:42
Speaker
Thank you. This is excellent. um But before we close this exciting conversation, can I ask all of you for one short takeaway message? Let's start with Min Fang, if that's okay.
00:27:54
Speaker
So, I think the message that i would like to share with you that water-related ecosystem services provided by forests are cornerstones of other ecosystem services.
00:28:09
Speaker
which are key to human well-being. Management of forest water nexus must consider the demands of both ecosystem protection and the human society. Management of forests for water must also take you into account other ecosystem services such as biodiversity and the carbon sequestration. And global changes are significantly altering the forest and water nexus.
00:28:38
Speaker
We need to reshape our management strategies to adapt these changes. Okay, thank you, Mingfang. Let's move to Nadim. Do you have any key takeaways that you can share with us now?
00:28:52
Speaker
Yeah, I suppose my takeaway message is that we should reflect on the role of forests in the water cycle and recognise its importance for water provision and water quality. Be grateful for clean drinking water as many people do not have access to clean drinking water and try not to waste water, even if you're in a place like Scotland where it abundant.
00:29:10
Speaker
Well, this is, I think, an important key message for all of us because we should really know how important and how valuable it is that we have access to clean drinking water. This is not a given. Now, Lubna, it's your turn.
00:29:24
Speaker
Could you also share your main takeaway from this conversation? Yes, and thank you for the opportunity. i think this is a great discussion. We talk about the forest, water and livelihoods, and it's important not only for the environment, but also for our social and economy. And we need to unite. We need to know about these topics, especially for the youth, for the students.
00:29:49
Speaker
Thank you so much, Lubna. And thank you, Minfang and Nadim, for this enlightening talk on the importance of forests and governance for water and livelihoods. For me, one of my main takeaway messages, but this is for all these podcast episodes, is that we really need strong collaboration across different disciplines, different sectors and borders to bring people together. I think that's really important to move forward. And a special thank you at this point, of course, to our listeners for joining us. I hope you found this an exciting conversation too. And look out for our next Branching Out episode, where we will learn more about making planted forests more diverse.
00:30:29
Speaker
That is the topic of another IUPRO task force named Stand Complexity in Planted Forests. And if you want to know more about IUPRO, follow us on social media or click on the show notes.
00:30:42
Speaker
And until next time, goodbye.