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Episode 3: Not a moral add-on
109 Plays29 days ago
Season 3 of Branching Out: The Forest Podcast, hosted by Gerda Wolfrum from IUFRO HQ, explores how IUFRO scientists work across disciplines to address emerging issues through Task Forces. In the third episode, we discuss the importance of gender equity, diversity, and inclusion (GEDI) in forest-related sectors, how excluding people and their knowledge from decision-making affects outcomes, and how embedding GEDI can create positive change.
Hear from Task Force co-leads Todora Rogelia from the University of Padova, Italy, and Rattiya Lippe from the Thuenen Institute of Forestry, Germany, along with co-host Bashir Isiya from the International Forestry Students’ Association (IFSA), joining from Nigeria.
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Transcript
Introduction to GEDI's Importance
00:00:04
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GEDI is not a moral add-on, it's not a badge that we put onto our suit. It is the precondition for legitimacy, resilience, effective action and regenerative society.
Podcast Hosts Introduction
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Hello everyone, I'm your host Gerda Wolfrum from the International Union of Forest Research Organizations, IUFRO, the Global Network for Forest Science Collaboration.
00:00:34
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You're listening to the third episode of Season 3 of Branching Out, the Forest Podcast. It's great to have you with us as we explore more forest science. In this season, we will find out how scientists in IUFRO work across disciplines to tackle emerging
Exploring GEDI in Forestry
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topics.
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This work takes place in our 13 task forces. Last time, we explored the role of science in forest sector innovation. And this time, we will talk about gender equity, diversity and inclusion in forest-related sectors.
00:01:06
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Let me welcome my co-host Bashir Isiya from the International Forestry Students Association, IFSA. Bashir, please introduce yourself. Hello everyone, my name is Bashir Isiya Ahmet from the International Forestry Students Association, IFSA. I am currently serving as the head of International Forestry Students Symposium 2026 Nigeria Organizing Committee.
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Previously in IFSA, I have served as head of International Policies Commission, also the head of UNFCCC Sub-Commission, where I serve as the main focal point between IFSA and the United Nations Framework on Nation on Climate Change.
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It's nice to have you today on today's edition of the iFlow podcast. Thank you very much.
Introduction to Guests and Their Backgrounds
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Welcome to Branching Out Bashir and welcome to our guests Todora Rogelja and Rattiya Lippe from the IUPRO Task Force on Gender Equity, Diversity and Inclusion in Forest-Related Sectors, in short FORGEDI, FOR G-E-D-I. for g e d i Thanks for joining us.
00:02:13
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Todora, could you say a few words about yourself, your academic and professional background, your main research fields and your own involvement in IUPRO? Hello Gerda, thank you very much for this invitation. It's a pleasure to be here at IUFRO Podcast. I am Todora Rogelja. I work as a researcher at the University of Padova, Department of Land, Environment, Agriculture and Forestry in Italy. I'm a forester by my background and I'm specialized in forest policy and governance. My interest and focus of my research lies within social innovation and actors capacities and engagement.
00:02:52
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And of course, also the aspects related to gender equity, diversity and inclusion. In IUFRO, I am co-coordinator of Forge the UFRO Task Force. It's large task force. We have nine coordinators.
00:03:06
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And I also serve as a deputy coordinator of UFRO Group 4.05.05 social innovation and entrepreneurship. Thank you. Thank you, Todora. is amazing. And all your involvements and also that the task force has so many members and so many deputies.
00:03:24
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After you explain, i get to understand that the work that you did in the task force is very important because of the involvement of a lot of people. Rattiya, could you share a bit about your academic and professional background, your research interests, and why you joined the tax course?
00:03:42
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Thank you, Gerda, and thank you, IUFRO, for having me here. and Hello everyone, my name is Rattiya Lippe, I'm a senior scientist at the Thünen Institute of Forestry, Germany and I'm an agricultural economist by training.
00:03:56
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My current research is centered around employment and labor market. in the forest and national resource sector, for example, employment relationship, working condition, and labor division. I joined the four GEDI Task Force not because I'm interested in the topic as a researcher, but I also have a hope that my small contribution to the task force can advance the GEDI practices in the forest and national resource-based labor market.
00:04:23
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Back to you. Thank you, Rattiya. You're very committed to the objectives and the aims of this task force.
Why is GEDI Crucial?
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Now, Todora, this task force, it aims to advance gender equity, diversity and inclusion. And let's use the abbreviation GEDI or G-E-D-I from now on. In this accomplishment, across forest-related sectors. Now, why is this important? Also, if we look at global challenges that forests and society are facing.
00:04:47
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Thank you, Gerda. When I look around today and the scale and complexity of what forests are facing for, what societies are facing today, we can see it's a poly-crisis. So we have multiple crises of climate emergency, biodiversity destruction. We have wars. economic instability and all of this is reinforcing each other. And now we have a rapid shift toward data driven and AI supported or even AI based decision making and increased scrutiny and oversight. So our governance structures, our governments are also struggling to respond to all these pressures. But those structures are not really neutral, right? Nothing is indeed.
00:05:28
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Those structures that we are currently having facing those problems, they are reflecting the existing power structures and they actually say to us who has been visible throughout the history, whose knowledge is accounted for, who remains excluded, and who gets prevented of holding certain rights, including the rights to forest resources.
00:05:48
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So why is GEDI important? GEDI is important because... It is not just about the gender and many can see it so superficially. It's about what we choose to stand for and how we want to act. And you already heard that from Rattiya's answer while she joined the task force. yeah It is really about what kind of values guide our decisions and what kind of futures we are actually trying to build today and for whom are those futures. So the way we design our systems today It's going to reflect whether we value today inclusion and responsibility and long-term stewardship of our forests, or we just continue to act upon greed and priorities with short-term goals.
00:06:30
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So exclusion is still a reality, and this is why it's also important, because over the world we can see women and indigenous people and local communities and youths and elderly and many, many other social groups that are managing our forests in a very nice and long-term way, but they are constantly underrepresented in forest-related decision-making.
00:06:57
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And it's not because they don't have the knowledge or the stake at forest, it's because the systems we've designed were designed to exclude them because some others will benefit from that exclusion.
00:07:10
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So if you take that perspective, the consequences of exclusion are very tangible. And when we leave people out, we leave the knowledge, we leave the wisdom, we leave the resilience of long-term relationship with forest and nature. But the groups that we are excluding are actually those who have the best understanding, the closest understanding how to live with forest ecosystems, not just to extract from them.
00:07:36
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So that is important because we need to stand against this kind of exclusion. because the exclusion would lead us to reinforce the same patterns of behavior that actually created all these crises and challenges.
00:07:49
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Wow, Todora, thank you very much. ah This is very insightful. So you say, and we have witnessed it everywhere, that there are many inequalities and exclusions still exist.
00:08:01
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And I think this is rooted in history and rooted in other reasons perhaps. But let me now turn to Rattiya because the tax force actually focuses on these equalities and these barriers, also in forest governance. What are the main obstacles that prevent groups in vulnerable positions from taking part in forest-related decision-making? Thank you for this question.
00:08:23
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I think it's very important to understand what are the main obstacles that prevent people, especially those in vulnerable groups, from taking part of the decision-making. But I also think the question is quite challenging to cover everything in just a few minutes. So I would speak about this aspect to the lens of participation in the workplace decision-making.
00:08:45
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We have one recent study by our task force active task force member, Corconan and her colleagues. They discussed that systematic power imbalance are key barriers, particularly for women and those in vulnerable groups. So these imbalance stem from hierarchical structure and long-standing cultural norms that concentrate decision-making power in a small, traditionally dominant group.
00:09:11
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For example, Individuals who don't fit the traditional hard-working, nature-mastering man stereotype or lack of acceptable educational background or hobby often feel excluded from the decision-making process.
00:09:26
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Or another big issue is the lack of safe and supportive environment. Experiences like discrimination, microaggressions, or fear of negative consequences can pre prevent people from sharing their views openly, especially those in vulnerable positions.
00:09:44
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Over time, this also leads to frustration, lower job satisfaction, and many decide to leave the sector at all together. So there are indeed still a lot of barriers and inequalities. And they are hard to overcome. And they eventually, as you say, um also make people leave the sector because they do not feel safe. They do not feel valued there. But, Todora, what actually might happen if these people leave the sector, if groups in vulnerable positions remain excluded from? and if gender equity, diversity and inclusion are not considered in forest-related policies and decisions. You also already mentioned this a bit in your first statement, but can you maybe elaborate a bit on this?
00:10:28
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If we continue to exclude certain social groups, based on the factors that are beyond their control, and that would be gender, that would be age, that would be location, ethnicity. and We see immediate, and I would say compounding effects ah on a society in general, but forestry is not an exception. Forestry is not a bubble in our small world. It's very well attached to other natural resources and to the governance systems and so on. So we are already now, unfortunately, seeing huge political rollbacks of different
Consequences of Exclusion in Policy-making
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rights across all regions.
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And those decisions, those political decisions, have disproportionate effects and impacts on certain groups. But very often those would be women and girls. And then we see the policies...
00:11:19
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based on this kind of political decisions that are failing because they are completely detached from local realities. So they don't fit the needs of people of our society and they cannot deliver on the expectations. Without the perspectives of those who directly depend on the forest and who nurture the forest the most, policy decisions, political decisions are incomplete and I would say ineffective very often. And with the exclusion, we are again reinforcing the already existing inequalities So the needs I mentioned remained invisible and benefits are unevenly distributed. Disparities are deepening rather than improving. We are privileging narrow histories, short-term gains, and we are seeing power over equity and responsibility.
00:12:04
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the dominant voices continue to reproduce the same inequalities and this limits the innovation and adaptation. And there are studies and examples even in our MOOC on how much women and indigenous peoples contribute to innovation and resilience and adaptation, for example, to climate change. So critically, if we continue the same patterns, we lose local and ancestral knowledge. And this is one of the most relevant expertise for sustainable forest management. It's not that it's just unfair, it's really ineffective in policy terms, in economic terms. It leads to policies that are less grounded, then they are less legitimate and less capable of addressing the problem. So you say we lose important knowledge and this leads to policies being actually detached from realities, from local realities, especially when it comes to people who depend directly on forests for their livelihoods.
Regional GEDI Success Stories
00:12:57
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Rattiya, I was thinking, how does this differ regionally? Are there any kind of bright spots? Can you give us examples or share success stories? Well, I will speak about this question based on the special collection on women as stewards of forests edited by our colleague Todola and Luga. When I read the collection, I think I have learned a lot. I invite everyone here to read this collection.
00:13:23
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And to answer your question, after I read the collection and also from the experience, I can say that integration of Gedi differs significantly across regions because it responds to local, social, cultural, economic reality, as well as a right to own the land, the usage, and the management rights. For example, I learned from the collection that in Africa, the Gedi integration is often linked to the poverty alleviation, food and energy security, reducing women's exposure to physical burden and gender-based violence.
00:13:58
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In Asia and in the Pacific, the focus is more on collective approaches and indigenous governance systems that strengthen the women's rights in local decision-making.
00:14:09
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These regional perspectives are important because they help us to understand how different social and cultural contexts shape the Gedi integration. So if you ask me about the success story when integrating the Gedi, after reading this collection, I would have to think about the story from Westhi Wigaringtyas Rinjas or Wiga, which is so a journey that to empower the women of the forestry in Java, Indonesia. Wiga started her journey in 2011, if I remember the year, collectively. In that time, when she started the community forest in Java, women women has very little growth in the forest, so only about 5%, and most of them just confined to the supportive growth. So over time, Wiga worked to change this by creating space for women to speak, to learn, to take part in the decision.
00:15:04
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And at the end of 2023, women participation in decision-making and forest management has grown to about 35%. So Vika helps women in the community to gain practical skills like making compost or diversified income generation activity. So the women can earn income and become more independent.
00:15:28
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And at the same time, Wiga also supports the community by helping them to achieve the international certification standard for the sustainable forest management. So that also improves the community as a whole for their market opportunity.
00:15:45
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Why I talk about her? Because I will give an example that if you want to integrate Gedi, and it has to work well only when it's part of everyday practices, it has to help people to improve livelihood. Why? For protecting the forest.
00:16:01
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Well, Rattiya, is a very inspiring and very impressive example. But, Tadora, do we always need these role models or champions? How ah how can barriers and challenges be overcome?
00:16:13
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Do we need these champions or is there other ways to empower underrepresented groups and improve the Gedi practices? Maybe can you illustrate this by sharing another best practice example or two?
Strategies for Overcoming Barriers in GEDI
00:16:26
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Two? I would say we definitely need these kind of leaders, role models, inspirational women who you you know show by example that it can be done and what women can do. I think there are three major things that we could do and are examples also for them. So one is to move from consultation to real co-creation.
00:16:47
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That means not just adding the names to the list and saying we had three women at the meeting, so are good. but actually creating spaces where the underrepresented groups, including women, will feel not just invited to comment, but feel safe to actually actively shape the agendas, the decisions, the outcomes. And this invest requires investments.
00:17:08
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in financial but also other resources in capacity and supporting leadership, giving access to education and not just including people due to mere inclusion.
00:17:19
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Then we need to recognize and act upon different knowledge systems That was a very strong point of Professor Janet Balkan that we had recently giving a keynote speech at at our ForGEDI MOOC second anniversary webinar. And it was amazing talk, actually, because what I learned from her is that learning from indigenous people is not just about acknowledging their knowledge, but we need also to create conditions. So...
00:17:46
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that kind of knowledge can actually be applied. And then we, of course, need to change the institutions themselves. This really means that we need to pay attention how data is collected, what data is collected, whose expertise is valued, and how then this data is analyzed and so success is defined and measured. that Because if we continue to prioritize shallow values and one-sided definitions of knowledge and expertise, then GEDI efforts will not achieve its full potential. And Rattiya already mentioned a bit of examples from Tropenbos, Tropical Forest Issue 63. It was an amazing learning experience. It's basically a collection of case studies from practitioners and scientists that show that
00:18:28
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Women are recognized and supported as decision makers. The forest outcomes improve, not just ecologically, but also socially, through community resilience and benefit sharing. In northern regions, in northern countries, we have, for example, Center of Social Intelligence in Canada that is actually working on changing workplace cultures. So, Rattiya talked a bit about challenges in work environment.
00:18:52
Speaker
And there Center for Social Intelligence that is making amazing progress in Canada. And I invite everybody to take a look at a book called Emboldened Warrior by Kelly Cooper, where she actually speaks about experiences and how to change this workplace, cultures to be more inclusive, more acceptable, and in the same time then bring the added economic value to the companies themselves. We have educational training examples of trying to empower women, for example, from Nordic Research Center, SNS, in Sweden, and they have manual for mainstreaming ed in forest education, and they are regularly conducting online trainings or in-person trainings.
00:19:34
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So we can see all these efforts around the globe, but we need really to utilize on these, let's say, activities and initiatives that exist and to join them. Because from this example, what we can see is that overcoming barriers is possible, then inclusion is as a value built into various structures and processes and practices. If people are present, but they cannot exercise their agency, they don't have a power over what is being done or implemented, then the idea is not really are having its effect on the ground.
00:20:06
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It's about creating space, creating the conditions, changing environments, changing institutions. And actually, i thank you for mentioning also Janette Bulkan, because she was a guest in one of our previous podcast episodes, and that was an amazing experience.
FORGEDI Task Force Initiatives
00:20:23
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So, Rattiya, how will the Task Force help us better understand these inequalities and barriers? Who do you work with and what are your main areas of work?
00:20:33
Speaker
Thank you for the question. and um Our ForGEDI Youthful Task Force helps us better understand the inequality and barriers by combining the research, education and partnership and also translating the knowledge into action.
00:20:50
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Our work is centered around ah the three main themes, like the first one we generate foundational knowledge and science-based guidance.
00:21:01
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And then we also enhance the educational tool, especially for GEDI MOOC. And at the same time, we also foster the partnership to ensure the sustainability and uptake of both research and capacity-building activity.
00:21:17
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Our earth task force brings together a global network of researchers, educators, practitioners, and policy makers, which currently includes more than 90 members across geographical regions.
00:21:31
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So this kind of diversity is the key and our core of the task force because it allows us to bridge the gap between the research and the real-world practice. Right. You just mentioned the ForGEDI MOOC. I think there is something more that our listeners will need to know about this. So your tax force builds, among other things, on the success of this massive, awful online course, the MOOC on the Gedi.
00:21:59
Speaker
Can you tell us a little about this, please? I'm very happy to talk about that and I love it very much and I really like to invite all the people to join because this is the first free open access online course that focuses specifically on the gender equity, diversity and inclusion in the forest-related sector.
00:22:17
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The course is developed by around 40 international experts worldwide and is constructed into three passes so you can learn on your own pace. So the first part, it will be the introduction of the Gedi in forestry. So what you will know, you will learn a number of basic concepts related to Gedi.
00:22:37
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And this concept helps explain why people see gender and diversity differently, including what gender means in forestry and forestry research. The second way, we will dig deeper into barriers.
00:22:50
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And then we move to the third way or the third part of the Fogedi MOOC. It provides the tool to overcome icing the Fogedi MOOC. It's very successful and already received more than 2,000 participants across 148 countries in the first two years. And the dropout rate is remarkably low compared to the normal massive open online course. For GEDI, MOOC doesn't just raise the awareness, but it's actually built capacity, giving the course participants concrete skills to apply GEDI principles in their research, their own institution, their community, and at their work.
00:23:28
Speaker
Well, this is amazing. And I think everyone should really go and take this for ForGEDI MOOC. But, Todora, ah in addition to this major achievement, are there any other concrete activities the task force is engaging in? What outputs are planned? Also, with a view to the 2029 IUFRO World Congress in Nairobi, Kenya, can you just give us a brief sneak peek?
Future Plans for GEDI Awareness
00:23:50
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Just before so I start with the plans for the future, just to highlight, we are still very young task force, and I believe it's important. We started in 25 with 45 members, five of which men.
00:24:05
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Now we have more than 90 and around 20 men in the task force. So one of the things we are constantly trying to do is not just improve our activities and bring that to all our activities, but also apply that to our own task force. So we are working on ourselves.
00:24:20
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Looking ahead with respect to the IUFRO Congress, we are very excited to, let's say, announce forget the Forgetty Photo Exhibition and Contest in a conjunction with IUFRO World Congress 29 in Nairobi.
00:24:35
Speaker
What we like would like to achieve ah with this exhibition is to create a space where all these different and diverse perspectives on forests and all those different social groups and lived experiences will be made visible in very tangible ah way. And they say that the picture says more than thousand words, so we are going to have thousands and thousands of contributions at the World Congress, hopefully also many, many photos that can actually show us how lived experiences related to forests look like.
00:25:07
Speaker
Beyond that, maybe worth mentioning as we are young task force that we have many members and many of them will be present at different conferences or workshops or events in the coming years. To mention just some in 26, because I believe those would be the first opportunities to meet us, would be the Small Scale Forestry and Indigenous Knowledge Conference in Kenya in June.
00:25:33
Speaker
Then we have the IUFRO 4.05 conference in November in Bolzano. And we also have FLARE conference in October in Spain. So those are great opportunities for our members also to meet in person and to work closely together. So it's a strong momentum, as we can see. There are also many, many other ideas and activities that the task force is planning and major outputs that we will deliver. We will, of course, also work to sustain the full free open access to our ForGEDI MOOC.
00:26:04
Speaker
For two years, for last two years, that was thanks to SNS. So the warm invitation to everybody to connect with the our networks and social media channels because we can make the change only together and not alone.
00:26:17
Speaker
Thank you. What should the listeners take away from this conversation? What is your key message there?
GEDI's Role in a Regenerative Society
00:26:24
Speaker
Yes, ah yes, indeed, the major takeaway would be that GEDI not a moral add-on. It's not a badge that we put onto our suit. It is the precondition for legitimacy, resilience, effective action, and regenerative society.
00:26:41
Speaker
So if the forests are to sustain the life in this era of the crisis, then the systems that are governing those forests need to reflect the diversity of those who depend and understand and steward the forest. And today, each of us have the agency to shape the society that we are going to live tomorrow. But this asks for collective action and alliances across communities and sectors and different institutions.
00:27:08
Speaker
Thank you very much. Now, Rattiya, what about you? What should the listener take away from this conversation? What is your key message there? I will just add one more thing that, ah from my view, advancing gender equity, diversity and inclusion is not just about inviting more people to the table.
00:27:30
Speaker
or representing diversity symbolically. That means it's not a matter of the quantity. But I think it's required transforming the culture and structure of the forest sector to make participation generally meaningful.
00:27:44
Speaker
Thank you. And before we close this exciting talk about Gedi, I would also like to hear from Bashir. What have you learned in this conversation and what is your takeaway message? Thank you very much. The takeaway that I can say generally is we all need to really understand our boundaries, because if everyone will understand his or her boundary, I think we all play our part. It's just like a situation whereby there must be a division of level. If we understand our boundaries, I think everyone is going to play his or her part well. And especially if everyone, regardless of gender, will be given a level playground in order to bring everything about his contribution. And I think he's going to be fine.
00:28:28
Speaker
And I can say thank you very much to to Rattiya and to Todora generally to IUFRO this. And I hope our listeners will understand a lot from what we discussed today. Thank you very much.
00:28:39
Speaker
Thank you, Bashir. And a big thank you to you, to Todora and Rattiya, for this truly eye-opening talk on gender equity, diversity and inclusion in forest-related sectors.
00:28:50
Speaker
And thank you to our listeners for joining us. So look out for our next Branching Out episode, where we will explore the connection between forests, water, livelihoods and governance, the topic of yet another IUFRO taskforce.
00:29:05
Speaker
And if you want to know more about IUFRO, follow us on social media or click on the show notes. And until next time, goodbye.