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How Loneliness Impacts Your Healthspan with Julia Hotz - E25
38 Plays10 months ago
Loneliness deeply impacts our mental and physical health, contributing to issues like anxiety, depression, and even chronic diseases. Instead of nurturing strong social bonds and enjoying a vibrant life, you might find yourself trapped in a cycle of solitude and health problems. In this episode, we unpack the concept of social prescribing as a mainstream practice in healthcare, offering a compassionate and inclusive approach that could revolutionize how we address loneliness and its health impacts. You'll learn about how embracing social connections and enjoyable activities as part of your routine can transform your well-being and lead to a more balanced, fulfilling life.
Julia Hotz is a solutions-focused journalist based in New York who emphasizes the positive impact of innovative approaches to global challenges. Her stories have appeared in prominent publications like The New York Times, WIRED, Scientific American, The Boston Globe, and Time. Julia also contributes to the Solutions Journalism Network, helping fellow journalists report on groundbreaking ideas transforming the world. She is the author of "The Connection Cure: The Prescriptive Power of Movement, Nature, Art, Service, and Belonging," which explores how community-based activities can address widespread societal issues.
“It's the gap between the kind of connection we want to have and the connections we do have.” - Julia Hotz
In this episode you will learn:
- How the concept of social prescribing can be integrated into mainstream healthcare, encouraging individuals to discuss it with their doctors.
- The detrimental health and financial impacts of the current healthcare system, and why a more human-focused, cost-effective approach is crucial for sustainability.
- The profound health impacts of loneliness, comparable to smoking 15 cigarettes a day, and the role of social prescribing in addressing this issue.
- The importance of incorporating enjoyment and moderation into healthy routines, emphasizing the value of living a compassionate and balanced life.
- Effective strategies for exercise and stress management, including rethinking physical activity by revisiting childhood sports and spending time in nature.
- Practical tips for improving sleep hygiene and managing diet in a balanced, stress-free manner, highlighting the integration of whole foods and mindfulness in everyday routines.
Resources
- Connect with Julia on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hotzthoughts
- Learn more about Julia’s work: https://www.hotzthoughts.com/
- Shop all the products Julia mentions in the episode: https://alively.com/products/julia-hotz
This podcast was produced by the team at Zapods Podcast Agency:
https://www.zapods.com
Find the products, practices, and routines discussed on the Alively website:
https://alively.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Reframing Exercise as Childhood Sports
00:00:00
Speaker
When we go to the doctor, they tell us to exercise more. And we just kind of roll our eyes and say, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. But if we flip the script and say, hey, what was like a sport you played as a kid? And you would have no idea how to get involved with now, but that you might be curious about resuming again. That totally flips the conversation. Same end goal, you're still getting that movement, that exercise. But it's a way that's more fun and approachable.
Profiles of Health Role Models
00:00:30
Speaker
This is the Home with Health spam podcast, where we profile health and wellness role models, sharing their stories and the tools, practices, and routines they use to live a lively life.
00:00:43
Speaker
Julia, it has been a long time coming, and maybe it doesn't. see It seems long to me because I've been following you online, read your book, and was absolutely blown away. Thank you so much for being here. How are you today?
00:00:55
Speaker
Thank you so much, Andrew. Likewise, I think we are a little bit of book soulmates here, so I'm great today, and I'm so happy to talk about it with you. I am i could not be happier, right? like that This is a connection that I have very much been looking forward to to doing live, and I'm happy today that
Optimism in Journalism
00:01:16
Speaker
we can do it. But before we jump in to the connection here and all the things, how would you define yourself, describe yourself?
00:01:24
Speaker
Sure. So I would define myself as a lively journalist who is ah reporting on solutions to some of today's biggest problems. I work for an organization, the Solutions Journalism Network, ah where we also work with other journalists to report with rigor and evidence the same way they would with any story, but hopefully to infuse a little bit of optimism and help people believe, hey, the world um might be getting better after all.
00:01:55
Speaker
That is so incredible. I just finished Hope for Senex that talks a lot about that of AI pair the Doom journalism with the solution of, okay, wait, and here's the best practice of what people are putting in place. So I i more i just love the work you do. I just absolutely love the work you do.
00:02:14
Speaker
Thank you. Likewise. And, you know, we need both. Of course, we need to hear about everything going wrong. But I think parents I know you have a daughter and I think parents especially resonate with the analogy of like, you know, if you have a kid and your kid does something wrong, of course, you you let them know. But you also give them some positive reinforcement and try to encourage them when they're doing something right. And I think our information you know, ecosystem is no different. We also need to hear about when problem solving goes well.
Understanding Loneliness
00:02:46
Speaker
Absolutely. And so speaking of these kinds of solutions, right, one of the the big problems, right, we talk about the the loneliness at
00:02:54
Speaker
in the US, but it it is a global phenomenon, I think, in many, many countries at this point. And that was one that you went real deep on and published an absolutely phenomenal book, The Connection Cure, through some of these solutions and what some societies, ah some health systems and others are doing. So I would love, if you don't mind sharing, kind of setting the table for what is the problem we're facing there? And and what are some of these best practice solutions you came across?
00:03:24
Speaker
Sure. So you know I think when people even hear that word loneliness, they have a really sort of cultural picture of what that is. They picture an older adult who's super isolated, who maybe only talks to the grocery checkout store person. And to be clear, like that exists. There are older adults who are extremely so so socially isolated.
00:03:47
Speaker
I think loneliness goes a bit deeper because it can happen to people who are not socially isolated. It can happen to younger people. It can happen to mobile people. It can happen to married people. It can happen to people on college campuses. And it's this idea of that the quality of our connections is not meeting our desired hunger for them. So loneliness is a totally subjective experience. It's the gap between the kind of connection we want to have and the connections we do have.
00:04:17
Speaker
And I started paying attention to it in twenty eighteen when the UK actually appointed a minister of loneliness. Why would they do that? Well, it turns out that being lonely actually has a ton of health consequences.
00:04:32
Speaker
People are rarely just lonely. ah There are huge correlations with anxiety, with depression, with chronic pain, with stress. And for a place like the UK where healthcare is nationalized, there was real incentive to get to the bottom of this loneliness epidemic so that the whole health of the nation would improve.
00:04:53
Speaker
That's where my investigation began and how I landed upon what would become the subject of my book, The Connection Cure, a solution called social prescribing.
Social Prescribing
00:05:03
Speaker
And social prescribing is a practice through which health workers, doctors, therapists, nurses, other you know health professionals are literally prescribing non-medical, community-based activities and resources the same way they prescribe pills and procedures. So, art classes, cycling groups.
00:05:27
Speaker
And what I'd found in my book was actually, just as we've laid out, you know, loneliness is one problem, but it often correlates with a lot of other health problems. Social prescribing, even though it may have been originally sort of conceived to address problems of loneliness, ends up addressing things like depression, anxiety, stress, ADHD, chronic pain, trauma, dementia, addiction.
00:05:56
Speaker
So I'll stop there. But I think that's yeah that's how it began. Yeah, let's let's pause there. Let's not stop there. let's Let's pause. Yeah. So I'm curious because people can hear this and think, oh, it's a soft thing. Loneliness is a soft thing. But there's data on if you are lonely, here's what happens physically, mentally, or if you're not, here's the benefits physically, mentally. And I can understand in a nationalized system where The incentive really is, how do we more cost-effectively and efficiently address this? That that probably is easier to implement in that kind of structure in society. in a hey provider like All mixed up kind of system that I think a lot of us find ourselves in in the U.S. with different incentives for
00:06:47
Speaker
drug companies and insurance versus the government. how How have you seen that translate or not?
Health Risks of Loneliness
00:06:55
Speaker
Yeah, into real data, sure. So, the statistic that the U.S. Surgeon General throws around that comes from research from Dr. Julianne Holt-Lunsted is that Loneliness, the health consequences are equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day. If you are lonely, you are 40% more likely to develop dementia. You are 50% more likely to die prematurely. You are also 50% more likely to use the emergency room.
00:07:27
Speaker
In the UK, it was found that one in five people who were going to the doctors were doing so for primarily social reasons, right? So that's like the real incentive. We have the data showing, hey, we have to do something about this just like we do for any other public health epidemic. But on the other side of that,
00:07:47
Speaker
There's research suggesting that strong social connections can prevent all of the sort of health risks of living in the way we do today, which is, as you know, oh, well, not the way we're hardwired to live. You know, if you think about why it might be that our bodies react to the experience of being lonely, think about how we evolved. We evolved to survive and thrive in groups.
00:08:13
Speaker
if we didn't have the group protecting us if we didn't have systems of mutual aid with our neighbors if we didn't have somebody that we could felt like we could confide in trust rely on that was really bad for our survival and so it makes sense that today one of my favorite stats is.
00:08:36
Speaker
comes from the Harvard study of adult development. They've been studying the same people since 1938, you know, this study. And they found that the people who were the healthiest, who lived the longest 80 years into this,
00:08:52
Speaker
were the ones who had the closest relationships. This was a better predictor of health longevity than your social class, your income, your IQ, your genes. Being connected prevented your mental and physical decline. So the data is totally there in both directions.
00:09:12
Speaker
I completely understand and agree with that. I guess my question a little bit, and maybe it's more of a policy question of with the UK government kind of paying for everything and saying, hey, we need to find because we're the system is getting overwhelmed versus a US system where we have so many different players involved and the incentives might not always be aligned to the most cost-effective solution to the problem.
00:09:40
Speaker
Given that i mean you started the research in the UK, that you were doing because, hey, this is something that's working. they're They're rolling it out. How has that
Social Prescribing in the US
00:09:49
Speaker
knowing it? right like This is stuff we know. This is not a yeah debate. How has that made its way across the pond to us?
00:09:58
Speaker
in practice or or not? Is it just individuals doing it, or do we have this movement at a more systematic level, saying, oh no we we need to really other than the Surgeon General? I get the Surgeon General is putting it out there. but How does that trickle down to how physicians or the health system are engaging with us?
00:10:16
Speaker
Totally. You're so right to ask about that. I mean, I had the same question. And on one hand, there's no comparison between the US and the UK. We saw that this worked in the UK. We saw that social prescriptions did reduce pressure on health care, improved people's health. It was cost effective. But The UK is a system where there's a national healthcare system run by the government. The government invested in positions called link workers that sort of serve as a sort of link between the doctor and the community to actually be the person who's getting to know the patient, the client, what matters to them, prescribing them something in the community. We don't have that in the US.
00:10:55
Speaker
We have a very big health care system, so big, in fact, that it's hard to imagine any one policy that would really help everyone. And so what it looks like a lot on the ground in the US is Communities sort of designing their own social prescribing pilots from scratch. Some of them are mobilizing, for example, on specific kinds of ingredients using funding that's available for art and health um initiatives. Parks prescriptions.
00:11:26
Speaker
So some of the spread says, hey, we're going to you know take what we've got, a really strong research department, a really committed you know museum partner or city parks partner that actually wants to facilitate these social prescriptions. And sure, it's going to be small. It's not going to cover you know the entire nation, but let's start in our community.
Julia's Personal Social Prescriptions
00:11:49
Speaker
So some of it looks like that and that's been really hopeful. We've been seeing at, you know, if it's usually starts like city community level. Increasingly states are getting on board. The state of Massachusetts just announced one of the largest social prescribing pilots ever. They have 300 arts community partners. They have a statewide hospital mass general health getting on board.
00:12:15
Speaker
Really, really exciting. And I'll just end with this. I think the biggest trip up for people is this idea of health insurance. Like, is our health insurance company really going to pay for an arts class? And my my skeptical journalist self said, absolutely not. That seems unfathomable, but there'd have to be a way to do this outside of insurance. Turns out more insurance companies are getting behind social prescriptions.
00:12:43
Speaker
where I grew up in New Jersey, the Insure Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield has started to cover up to six months of arts prescriptions for patients at risk of overspending on their insurance. And that's just it because the logic is, okay, just as some insurance companies have started to cover gym memberships or produce prescriptions,
00:13:07
Speaker
If it can be demonstrated, and it has been demonstrated, that participating in the arts can lower healthcare costs down the line is an investment in somebody's long-term health,
00:13:20
Speaker
Well, dang, that's a really sound investment for an insurer to cover one arts prescription versus four medications, right? So it is hopeful. Yeah, I mean, it's a really good point because they're they're not, you don't have to depend on them being moral or amoral.
00:13:37
Speaker
or immoral. It's economic. say hey right We're a business. We're trying to maximize profits. If you're showing me if I invest a dollar here, I save $4 there as a business, I should do that every single day. and mixed and the The produce prescription is a really interesting one I'd love to come back to too because i was I was just having this conversation last weekend with someone about when you just give bags of healthy food to people,
00:14:03
Speaker
All the health workers get better. like You don't have to track if they eat it or anything. Just give bags of healthy food to people. Just plans. And they're going to do better. And they're like, what? That's not a thing. No, it actually is. They're studied. This is how it works. So knowing this, maybe you live in a community that has notices this and starts implementing it.
00:14:23
Speaker
Maybe you live in a community that hasn't, and you have the wherewithal to to get it started. Or maybe you're just an individual saying, you know what a lot of this isn't that expensive or difficult, and I need to start self-prescribing on this. and I'm curious for you, knowing what you now know. ah You're well-versed in this. How have you changed how you engage with the community and the world around you? What what have you put it into place in your own life?
00:14:53
Speaker
Totally. It's a great question and it's one that hits close to home because truthfully, Andrew, I had not planned to make any major changes to my own life. if I can admit, you know I kind of prided myself on being this journalist who was just going to investigate this, put the data out there. you know This is for people who are severely lonely, severely depressed. That's kind of what I went into it thinking. but Actually, I realized that for all of us, and your book touches on this so well, because of the way we live, because of the way our environments make us less than present in our lives are more stressful now than ever, all of us can stand to do a little social prescribing to ourselves when we're feeling maybe the precursors of something like clinical anxiety, the precursors of clinical depression, the precursors of loneliness, of ADHD.
00:15:46
Speaker
All of us from time to time can feel sad or distracted or worried or alone. And what I've done in my own life is I've tried to follow the data. I've tried to follow the stories of people who've been given social prescriptions for more extreme manifestations of those conditions.
00:16:05
Speaker
And sort of like preventatively prescribed myself so like one classic example there's actually a brand new study fourteen thousand participants showing that exercise is incredibly effective for treating symptoms of depression.
00:16:20
Speaker
I say, okay, Julia, when I'm feeling a little sad or a little exhausted, like all I want to do is just kind of lay and mope. And of course, depression is so much more than that. But some of those symptoms overlap. When I catch myself feeling that way, I say, I need to prescribe myself my running group this week.
00:16:40
Speaker
I need to prescribe myself going to the volleyball court, signing up for a league. I need to prescribe myself swimming or cycling. and so you know The book touches on, we know that there are healthy behaviors we can all take in our own life, but when we prescribe ourselves some group that's doing it, number one, it's an extra like mechanism of accountability.
00:17:03
Speaker
Number two, um it's more fun. You know, as your work touches on and this book touches on, it's not just the activity, it's also all the connections we're forming along the way. And number three, it's more sustainable. Just as we can be, people can be an accountability buddy for us, we can do it for them.
00:17:24
Speaker
and vice versa.
Exercise vs. SSRIs for Depression
00:17:26
Speaker
um So my website really talks about that research and how if we're feeling any sort of symptom of unwellness, I call it, we should find the appropriate social prescription for that particular symptom and go do it. And I promise you'll feel better.
00:17:46
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, for sure. This is another one that there is good data on exercise is more effective at treating depression than SSRIs. It's just if repeatedly proven exercise does more there. And then your point of stacking it with that social connection. I think the the most recent global well-being report, that I don't remember how many thousands of people they surveyed, but it was saying,
00:18:12
Speaker
people who felt socially engaged and connected in doing their fitness, they reported 20% higher while being scorers than those that weren't, right? So you're doing the same thing, but doing it with other people gives you the separate boost. So it's not saying you need to do more or different, it's just doing what you're doing with other people. Yeah, yeah love that. I love that, oh my gosh, 100%. I love those stats. And you know, one thing that it struck me when I was, this was the first chapter in the book, like the movement prescription. And I think, sure, on one hand, all of us know, okay, we should probably be moving more. We probably shouldn't be sitting on our butts all day. You know, and i no no wonder that when we go to the doctor, they tell us to exercise more. And we just kind of roll our eyes and say, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
00:19:02
Speaker
But if we flip the script and say, hey, Andrew, what was like a sport you played as a kid and, you know, you would have no idea how to get involved with now, but that you might be curious about resuming again. That totally flips the conversation. Same end goal. You're still getting that movement, that exercise, but it's a way that's more fun and approachable. It's this whole ethos and social prescribing of flipping the script from what's the matter with you to what matters to you.
00:19:29
Speaker
Yeah, it this came up, that there's a book play. is' a very similar right As we get older, we're less likely to do it. But a lot of it's, what did you really enjoy doing when you were younger? And then it helps you get back to that place because it may be natural that we play less.
00:19:46
Speaker
But again, there's lots of data. We're happier. We're more creative. We're healthier if we can keep that in our lives. And so instead of what I love about so much of what you're saying and doing, it's not I'm having to recreate something or push myself into something that I don't like. But let me find the stuff I do like. And I think exercise is a great point of who's like, oh, I hate to exercise. So well what do you mean?
00:20:11
Speaker
Like, oh, I hate running. Like, okay, so you don't need to exercise. You hate running. Do you like, but I love playing pickleball. Okay, then that, that can be your exercise or I like to swim. I mean, they're, they're infinite flavors. It's like trying, you know, licorice and be like, I hate candy. Well, there are a few other flavors of candy out there than that one. Right. That's such a great analogy. Yes, yes, exactly. And it's like, I mean, it's like you say in your work, you know start with that, start with what matters to you, what's important to you, and build around that.
00:20:45
Speaker
And ah look, here's the spoiler alert of the book. like Even though it's true that okay exercise happens to be really good for depression, nature happens to be really good for treating symptoms of attention disorders or addiction, stress.
00:21:01
Speaker
But for all of that, like, you're not going to be worse off if you prescribe yourself art for depression, let's say, or cycling for ADHD, whatever it is more important than I would say, following the data is following the what matters to you, because if effective, what all of these things aim to do, this is the spoiler alert.
00:21:24
Speaker
is make you more present, is to to use you know the title of your book is to get you out of your own head and to get you in an environment that reminds you of your joy, that brings you some purpose, that connects you with other people.
00:21:40
Speaker
It doesn't really matter if it's pickleball or an art class or volunteering. That's just one helpful way to start and that doctors are using um again in alignment with the data. But truth be told, they're all pretty good. And that's yeah not letting perfect be the enemy of good there, right? It's what we see all the time. It doesn't matter if these are the top 20 interventions.
00:22:04
Speaker
Well, one to seven aren't the top for you if you're not going to do it.
Julia's Active Lifestyle
00:22:08
Speaker
The most effective could be number eight because it's what you're actually going to enjoy and stick with. And so it's not this one size fits all. It's understanding what the menu is and finding the flavors that resonate with you. I mean, given that, so knowing what you know and and being more social on the fitness, what is your fitness routine like now? I mean, how do you incorporate that to your day or week?
00:22:29
Speaker
Totally totally well that's just it because i love how you started with the data about ssr eyes and how physically moving our bodies can like vastly improve our well being and i think i know that i think a lot of people probably know that but it's just not in our culture.
00:22:49
Speaker
Like our culture makes it so easy to just be sedentary. And, you know, the gym can feel a little bit inaccessible. I used to be a big gym person. I still am. I still go to the gym. I really like group classes. But where I feel the healthiest, where I feel like I'm getting those greatest wellbeing gains, those greatest sort of boosts in mood, endorphins, serotonin,
00:23:14
Speaker
is when I run, particularly in the morning, I feel so good throughout the rest of my day. I like to cycle as well. And I like to right next to me in my closet, I have a volleyball net and I live across the street from a park where friends night at the weekend sometimes will just set up the net and like spend hours just playing volleyball. So try to make it like I try to make it running sort of the daily cycling more the weekly and sports such as volleyball, the more like fun wildcard one. And I love how many amazing ingredients it brings together, right? The movement of the body, the getting outside, the getting the early morning sunlight. I mean, this whole concept of inside versus outside is a new one. There wasn't an inside not that long ago. it It was all outside. And then the community of of being with other people and how you're you're bringing all that together. Yeah, it's incredible.
00:24:14
Speaker
Totally. And I should also say like, I do, like I said, still have a gym membership. I still take gym classes. I think like, you know, building muscle is really important too. For me, that's more the like, eating a protein bar rather than like making a really nice chicken and enjoying it. You know, it's what I do sort of to like,
00:24:34
Speaker
Okay, check the box. But if it were up to me, I'd be doing, you know, sports type things that are less kind of class based all the time. Yeah, I mean, that does bring up a good point, because the the resistance training, especially as we age, right, the last muscle, it's important to fold in. So For some people, that's their eating, and the the need to move is the other 20.
Eating Habits and Social Dining
00:25:00
Speaker
And so just leaning in to whichever it works for you, but then saying, okay, I do need to fold this in every now and then, that's important. Totally. Totally. Exactly. Exactly. Now, on that eating the protein bar versus the chicken, what is your kind of nutritional plan over the course of a day or a week? How how do you think about nutrition?
00:25:22
Speaker
Yeah, I think about nutrition. I try to buy pretty much whole foods, pretty few processed few foods, pretty few seedles. I don't like to have anything in the house that I personally know is is not healthy because I'm like, why would I even tempt myself? um So for me you know i do try to eat a fair amount of protein hundred grams of protein chicken tuna eggs yogurt cottage cheese all that lots of fruits and vegetables i will say though you know i live in new york i.
00:25:56
Speaker
eating and food and cooking happens to be a big form of socialization here with my friends. So when I'm out with them, I would say things get a little bit looser. ah Um, but when it's during the week and I'm here, I try to be a pretty rich evented with health when I can. That approach makes a lot of sense, right? I was saying the the times that I control, if I'm going to be here, I'm just going to set myself up for quote success. I know the kind of boundaries and I'm here to live and I want to enjoy. And so ah as my ex-wife told me, when I'd go through kind of different diet things, she would say, just don't be weird. And that's one rule to carry it with me. So if I'm going to someone's house, I have no dietary restriction, whatever it is, it's just like enjoy when you're out with people, that that's a different thing than when I'm setting the parameters behind my own four walls. Totally. That's so funny that
00:26:54
Speaker
I love that she said that, that's good advice. I have a friend who used to have, okay, mad respect to whatever people want to do, but he had a glucose monitor on him, and sometimes it would be like a party game, like, ooh, what would make, you know, Pat's ah monitor spike. He wasn't doing it for a health condition, it was truly just to kind of, for fun. ah um But yeah, I think that's a good rule of thumb, because to your point,
00:27:22
Speaker
I think there have been times in my life where I have been more restrictive with myself and have been weird, but it just makes you less present. It makes you thinking about, oh my gosh, I really shouldn't be eating that. If I eat this, I'm going to have to do XYZ. And I just found for me, that wasn't a sustainable way to live. And as long as you're doing, you know, you're the best you can most days of the week. I found that that stress and in your headness isn't so much worth it.
00:27:53
Speaker
Yeah, and it i mean it sounds like you' you're trying to get most of the nutrients, everything you need, macros from whole foods. But I believe, like me, you have a a love for cold brew and and supplement. But this? Yeah. So supplement with some caffeine and coffee in there. Do you have any supplements you take? You say, hey, look, yeah I'm in New York. I'm in the Northeast. I got to throw in vitamin D in the winter or something like that.
00:28:18
Speaker
Yeah, I should be better about that. I try to, you know, I talk about in the book also, I had a pretty bad migraine spell and was recommended to take magnesium. That actually helped me. um I try to take multivitamins. I probably should look more into the supplements, um but I do try to eat like as whole food-based as I can and try to get those nutrients from the food I'm eating, but I could stand to improve for sure.
00:28:47
Speaker
I mean, vitamin D for sure. If you're not doing that, I mean, that's one that most people in today's society are. And then on the protein front, you reference a protein bar. Do you ever supplement with protein or are you like, look, I'm getting 100 grams from real food? Yeah, I sometimes supplement. I sometimes I have the powder, sometimes smoothies, you know, I'll just pop some scoops in there to try to make that work. um But I try, cry I try, I try, I try. But it's expensive. That's another factor.
00:29:16
Speaker
ah yeah I wonder if the total cost ends up being of if you were depending on what that protein source is. right like I remember it doesn't act as like $14, so there's not a cheap source of protein here. yeah yeah that's true That's true. I think there's some... I try to consider all the factors like okay this might be a little bit more expensive but you know it'll feel better and okay this week I'm saving money and all right it might not feel as good but um yeah for me a tuna cans of tuna are what I love and they're pretty cost effective and um you know you're not the favorite person at the office that day but that's what you gotta do
00:30:01
Speaker
Yeah, that smell and when somebody mixes it and then pops in the fridge and takes over. yeah that Exactly. So what about on the sleep front, right? Understanding to to show up in the world to be able to engage?
00:30:17
Speaker
You need to be well-rested.
Challenges with Sleep Routine
00:30:19
Speaker
How with this caffeine habit? You're just showing me a cold brew, and it's in New York almost 3 o'clock in the afternoon, so you're not a, I don't drink caffeine after 2 o'clock kind of person. So how do you think about sleep and your sleep routine?
00:30:33
Speaker
So funny you say that. i I think I must speak about Cold Brew a lot on podcasts because I'm getting a lot of targeted content that's saying, you really should have drank caffeine after 2 p.m. And I should. I am trying to crack down on that because ah absolutely sleep is so important. I think we're both fans of ah why we sleep and you know all the wisdom that that Matthew but walker yeah matt Walker has shared around, you know, sleep quality and quantity being so, so important.
00:31:11
Speaker
i want to be I want to aspire to be one of those people that doesn't use an alarm that's kind of like waking up with the sun. I'm not there yet. But I will say that I do try to prioritize getting seven hours of sleep. I wish it could be more I sleep in at the weekends weekends no alarm. I think I'm in a particularly busy, seized of life right now, where I'm traveling a lot to different cities. And, you know, we also know from that book that that's not great. But I know that it's temporary. And I think for sure, as this book tour wraps up, I will be more committed to
00:31:55
Speaker
sleep regularity, not caffeine after a certain hour of the day, creating a really cool dark room and space and um yeah, treating sleep like you would treat any other aspect of your health routine.
00:32:11
Speaker
And on that with the trial, you're having to deal with jet lag, you're having to deal with sleeping in different beds, different rooms as you're going around. Do you have any practices like unwinding routines or anything that you rely on to help you get into that sleep zone to to get better sleep?
00:32:30
Speaker
Yeah. Blessing and a curse. I think I'm pretty good at sleeping. Like when I am in the bed, I have fallen asleep in some pretty wild places over the years. English class, seventh grade. Sorry, Mr. Silver. ah You know, like, I'm pretty good at sleeping. Once my head's down, I'm kind of lights out. um But that being said, you know, I definitely find as Dr. Walker and so many others have shared that When I'm more active in the morning, I'm more naturally bound to wind down in the evening. And so I think just keeping it cool, keeping the screens away from the bed, that's a big one. um And just trying to listen to your body in terms of, okay, yeah, I probably, I should really send that email, but I am, my eyelids are so heavy right now. I really should just give in into this because it's going to take me three times as long to write the email anyway at this point.
00:33:28
Speaker
Yeah. I hear these people that work till three in the morning, whatever it is. my look i I know myself, I am not a productive human after that. I am way more productive. I personally wake up at five and then do the work then. I've had important things where I wake up at 1.30 and they're like, you mean you went to bed at 1.30? No, I actually went to bed at nine, but I woke up at 1.30 and I started the work day. It's just, I need that sleep before I trigger. I mean, what's what is your typical kind of start and finish on sleep? Are you consistent across the week? That's amazing. I'm still reeling at you waking up at 1.30. That's wild. That's not the normal. I mean, my normal iss like five five thirty that's is It's not for an alarm. like I would never send an alarm of, I need to get up at 1.30 to work. But it was just like, hey, I woke up. Oh, I'm feeling energetic. I have some ideas. I'm not going to lay here. I'm going to go start working.
00:34:22
Speaker
Totally, that's great. I think I'm pretty consistent. i i when i The days I take the fitness class, that's at seven, so I try to wake up at 6.30. I try to go to bed then by like 11, probably realistically sleeping by 11.30. It's not perfect, but we're getting there. ah i think why do What makes you say it's not perfect?
00:34:49
Speaker
I think that, you know, in an ideal world, I'd be going to bed a little earlier, I'd be getting up a little earlier, I'd be sleeping a little bit more. um I know that I'm least productive at night. Nighttime is when I do my most like admin kind of work. because my brain is just kind of zonked at that point. And i I can feel, I know that when I have less admin work in the evening to get through, I can go to bed earlier, I could sleep longer, more soundly. I'm so much better the next day. um So the root cause is we really got to bring the admin work volume down and then everything gets better.
00:35:33
Speaker
and there There's some efficient EAs out there yeah that would love to offer you on some of that stuff. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Maybe I should look into that. Yeah. In terms of investment, right? Like, as long as you're putting the time then to your sleep and saying, okay, look, I just bought an hour a day and here's what that hour a day is costing me. But is that hour, if I think about the impact on my cortisol levels, the impact on the plaques that lead to dementia and everything else, is that an investment? I'm willing to make, you know, each hour, like it's costing me 20 bucks a day. Yeah. Well, you know, and that, I'm so glad you brought that up because
00:36:11
Speaker
That brings me to just some really interesting tidbits I learned in the chapter on stress. Like I think we all can relate to stress. Maybe we can all relate to deep depression, deep chronic pain, deep anxiety, whatever. But all of us at one point in our life have felt stress. I put all my money on it. And what we do with stress is we think, oh my gosh, I'm so stressed. I have so much to do. I have so much to do. I have so much to do. And We do that for a long period of time. And the things on our to-do list are not getting shorter when we ruminate about how long that is. But in fact, what research suggests, and this is the story of a woman named Heather in the book who works three jobs, is a caretaker for her family, is so stressed about her stress that at first the idea of a social prescription sounds ridiculous. It sounds like another thing on our on her to-do list.
00:37:08
Speaker
But actually what the research suggests with nature is that when we spend time in it, our attention resets and we actually become better at judging our stressors on the other side of it. Nature is the one thing that can restore our attention capabilities. So instead of saying, oh my God, I'm so stressed, I'm so stressed, we spend that 30 minutes or so in nature.
00:37:34
Speaker
And then we feel more focused and so we get better at feeling like our stress is more manageable being efficient in the things we have to do on our to do list and that thirty minutes of time while some might say. That's another investment of time and that's time that i don't have it's actually a time saver in the long run just like sleep and that way.
00:37:58
Speaker
Yeah, I can go back to this time I have or don't have. and you know Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Ariana Huffington, they all get the same 24 hours. Now, granted, they have a lot more help in different parts of their lives. But Elon's also running Ax and SpaceX and Tesla and other stuff. And it just comes down to prioritization.
00:38:17
Speaker
And it's fine if the answer is, look, I am choosing to do this job in order of these number hours. Or I'm choosing to do this for my children in these number hours instead of this. But it's still making a decision of, I'm going to prioritize this time versus this other time. Being in New York, on the stress management, what you know about nature, how do you put that in practice? Is Central Park basically the only place you can do this? What does that look like? Or do you get outside the city?
00:38:45
Speaker
Yeah, well, first of all, I'll just say I've loved to hear you talk about the same 24 hours thing and your map, your Google calendar, rather, really puts that into
Benefits of Nature
00:38:56
Speaker
perspective. Like, I think so many of us are horrified when we see our phones now have the feature where we see how much screen time we spend.
00:39:04
Speaker
I wish we had the same feature for our brains. like I spent 30 minutes today ruminating about how I have to write this email that I really don't want to write instead of just writing the freaking email. And so to your question about New York,
00:39:18
Speaker
um I think it's both a blessing and a curse. We have actually a lot of parks here. One of my first jobs was an intern counting the number of parks we have in New York, and it's pretty astronomical. I live in Brooklyn, where I live very close to two beautiful parks. I live near the waterfront. And, so you know, there's some mixed research saying what's the experience in parks or gardens, sort of curated nature experiences versus you know, being in the woods or the wild Savannah, you know, I think as with most things like the pure, you can make it the fewer distractions you can have the better. But that park is certainly better than nothing. And some research suggests one of my favorite studies from this book found that they compared two groups of people who walked outside. One of them walked in a city park
00:40:13
Speaker
And one of them walked also outside, but along a main boulevard, a highway. And by the end of that 90 minute walk, The people who walked in the park had, you know, first of all, they self-reported, feeling more calm, more well, whatever. But physiologically, fMRI scans showed that the park walkers had less activity in their subgenual prefrontal cortex, which is the part of the brain that is associated with rumination.
00:40:48
Speaker
So in other words even though they were both outside the people who were in the more park the more nature equipped environment ruminated less so i think that should tell you something and I mean, at the same time, New York is beautiful and there are certain streets that they might not be beautiful naturescapes, but they remind me of my favorite musicians, of my favorite artists or nostalgic memories. um they They bring up other sort of warm, distracting thoughts.
00:41:24
Speaker
So I think that with all of these social prescriptions, it's never a one size fits all. It's kind of like about making sure that the place offers people a variety of escape from environments that remind them of their stress. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I'd be really curious on if you had a and a separate group that didn't take the walk, didn't get outside, or was walking on a treadmill inside to compare it to and say, hey, look, maybe walking on the streets is not as good as walking in a park, but look you still get all these benefits. and and I think the equivalent of the gap between zero minutes of movement a day and 10 minutes is thousands of times bigger than the gap between 10 minutes and 60 minutes. Just getting something done is so much more impactful
00:42:17
Speaker
then nothing so i just be curious of are you getting no benefit i imagine just getting outside in the first place is providing something that. Absolutely. I think that's the perfect way to think about it. There are studies that show that yes, just, you know, I think it's like 12 minutes of nature, 30 minutes of walking. I mean, all of that is good. It has a significant effect on our health. I saw you just had someone else on your podcast who made a similar point, like something is better than nothing. But
00:42:49
Speaker
You know if we're aiming for like the gold gold standards which i think our cities and build environment should we should try to provide as many distraction free stressor free environment as we.
00:43:03
Speaker
and and And knowing which one's better, like if you can go left to the park or right into town, say, oh, well, I might as well go left, because I know that's a bigger benefit. For me, I live kind of in a busier part. from you know We don't have much sidewalks. like the The walk, it's not super natural. You're on the street. And so a lot of my time spent in the ocean swimming. And I had this concern, like does this count as nature? And then our mutual friend, fortunately, Adam Grant, in one of his newsletters, like actually, time in open water is even better than time. I was like, yeah
00:43:34
Speaker
yeah as Totally, totally. And you could like understand physiologically why that makes sense. Like, I mean, oh gosh, the cold water thing for so many reasons. Sunlight we know is so good for us.
00:43:49
Speaker
It's why people are taking cold showers like crazy. I mean, the physiological rush of the cold water. And again, I think there's something very like primal and human about us being in these sort of untainted environments.
00:44:04
Speaker
So yeah, keep up the swimming. And fully distraction free, right? Like the temptation for me, if I go for a walk to have my phone with me and to check it, is very, very different than if I'm swimming. There's nothing with me. I got a pair of goggles and swimsuit. So true. Wow, I never thought, you know, swimming is one of the prescriptions that's profiled in the book. It helps a woman go from the maximum dose of her antidepressants to the minimum. I never thought about the phone aspect. You're so right. that That was the the chapter, the wild swimming, like the coal where you're jumping in and because you went and did it with them. Right. Like it did. I did. It was truly wild. I thought ah you hear the description. It's like, you know, women who are who had started out as novice swimmers in their 50s. I thought, OK, you know,
00:44:55
Speaker
I could handle this um naive because no, I get there and it's freezing. It's really hard, but it's so good. It's so rewarding. And, you know, they're coaching me on how do you slowly acclimate to the temperatures? They're teaching me how to do box breathing. They're teaching me all these techniques. And it just made so much sense to me that this would be medicinal on so many levels and including the not having my phone that is Such a great point. I'm going to carry that going forward. Yeah, on that. So you mentioned a couple of different things, right?
Birdwatching as Meditation
00:45:29
Speaker
The box breathing, the the time in nature, you've tried a bunch of different things. You know, as part of your research, as as part of writing this, do you have a consistent mindset, stress management practice? Do you incorporate either daily of hate consistently at this time I do this thing? Or when I notice X, I go and do Y. Or maybe you have both.
00:45:51
Speaker
Yes, yes. And that comes back to sort of, I think this is the promise that social prescribing has for all of us, that when we feel certain symptoms of unwellness, which our modern living environments make so endemic, whether that's stress, worry, grumpiness, loneliness, sadness,
00:46:11
Speaker
There are different social prescriptions we can pull out of our back pocket. So for me lately, again, being in the thick of this book tour, kind of waking up in a new hotel every day, and sometimes feeling a little bit stressed about my stress, I think back to the research, I think back to the people in the book and say, my non-negotiable is that I have to get outside.
00:46:35
Speaker
I do this in the book, I prescribe myself birdwatching and I go to a group that does it. Every Saturday here in Brooklyn, we have this incredible birdwatching group. It started out as five people. Now it's a hundred people. But even when I'm not with that group, when I'm alone, like later this week, for example, I'll be in Cleveland, Ohio, I will try to go outside.
00:46:59
Speaker
whatever that means, if I have to wake up earlier, if I have to sack off you know some meetings, I will do it because that sort of, even if it's just 10 minutes of stillness and looking up at the sky and looking at the trees and feeling the sunlight is my medicine. you know I've never been a yoga person, I've never been,
00:47:26
Speaker
a big meditation person, unfortunately. um But this just feels like what I imagine people feel when they meditate and do yoga is that sort of calmness and zen that lasts them throughout the day.
00:47:39
Speaker
And my understanding for meditation, it's less about that time on the cushion than about being able to build that awareness for your time away from the cushion and when you're in life. And it seems like, as you described, the birdwatching of this awareness, this focus, this awakeness to what's happening around you, you're building a similar mindset and skill set As you would i would think meditation so it's just finding what it is for you just like we said with exercise or whatever it is.
00:48:10
Speaker
Absolutely. And you putting it in those terms and I've heard other people like Dan Harris is so great about talking about this. It doesn't have to be meditation with a capital M where there's, you know, you're sitting on a map and you're in a hot sweaty room and you're some instructors using these buzzwords. Like that's just never resonated with me personally. That's not really what matters to me.
00:48:35
Speaker
I'm open, maybe that could change, but I do think you're exactly right. that That sort of extreme presence, as I like to call it, that comes from whether it's birdwatching or gardening is another one. That awareness of my environment, my thoughts. That's what those activities bring me that ironically by like having an activity is how I find that sort of zen and calm and peace. That's amazing. hey There's this quote from Quentin Tarantino that I really like about it's not learning until you put it into practice.
Applying Research to Life
00:49:15
Speaker
And what I loved about this conversation kind of following you is you've learned so much from your research, from your work, and you live it too, right? It's not just, hey, this is words on a page. It's now here's what it looks like in practice. And I can't thank you enough for coming on today and and sharing all this, not just the insights, but also what it looks like in practice in your own life.
00:49:38
Speaker
Oh, thank you so much, Andrew. Well, inspired by you, inspired by so many others who forged that path of saying, hey, this like problem that I'm having in my life, it's probably likely that other people are having it too. It's probably not you. It's probably a product of the way we're living. And for me, I sort of arrived at that conclusion the other way.
00:49:59
Speaker
I reported as I do with everything as a journalist sort of on the data, the systemic solutions, but then I really was so moved by the stories of people who had been given social prescriptions that it just was such a no brainer to try it for myself too. So I hope your listeners feel the same.
00:50:19
Speaker
I can't imagine they won't. Now, we've talked about all different ones, right? Like all different areas of health, all different social prescriptions or otherwise. And you certainly cover a lot in the book. Rather than it being overwhelming of saying, oh, there's too much, I i can't do anything. If someone's listening to this, saying, I want to get started. And understanding it's not a one size fits all. But where would you, from what you know, recommend people take that first step? Yeah, absolutely.
00:50:49
Speaker
I would recommend if they they had to just start somewhere, because you're right. It's so overwhelming to even think about that cardinal question, what matters to you, right? That's the whole shift, shifting from what's the matter with you to what matters to you. You might be like, well, a lot of things matter to me. My family matters to me. My religion matters to me. My job security. It's almost like too big of a question. So I like to break it down into smaller ones.
00:51:18
Speaker
Questions like, if you had two more hours in the week, what would you spend it doing? Or what is something that you loved to do as a child but haven't had a chance to do so since?
00:51:29
Speaker
Or and bringing in some of the more modern concepts, questions like, what is one activity that completely absorbs your attention that feels like nothing can distract you when you're doing it? That's called flow, right? Or what's something that you know gives you full body chills when you think about experiencing it? When was the last time you experienced full body chills and sort of gave you an experience of something that transcended your current understanding of the world. That's called awe, right? So it's getting people to really reflect on these health-creating experiences
00:52:09
Speaker
And then whatever they might answer, that's step one. So sorry, it's two steps. Step one, finding out what matters to you through these specific questions. Step two, finding a group, a community-based group that connects to the answer.
00:52:25
Speaker
There are resources on my website, socialprescribing dot.co. There are more and more platforms, I think, where we're seeing better trying to make these community activities sort of more available and prescribable. But I would start there. um And for those who who were saying, OK, yes, I could do all this, but how can we make this mainstream in US health care?
00:52:47
Speaker
It sounds cliche, but like talk to your doctor about it. Talk to your doctor about social prescribing. There is a tremendous movement among US doctors, therapists, nurses at a website called Social Prescribing USA that's trying to make this mainstream by 2035. So let's hope, let's, we have to be the change and we have to ask for the change, I think too.
00:53:09
Speaker
Yeah. And we certainly need the chain trade. What we're doing is not financially or health-wise sustainable. It is the definition of unsustainable on all fronts. And so I just love this, get back to the human element. And it's cost effective. It's cost efficient. it's And it's the right thing. So yeah just again, kept can't thank you enough for your work. Likewise.
00:53:36
Speaker
A lot of health. Do you have a guilty or guilt-free um pleasure to say, hey, yeah, there's probably people on the outside who say that's not that healthy, but it makes life worth living.
00:53:48
Speaker
Yeah, oh, I have like 5000. I mean, we've already talked about the cold brew, but I mentioned a lot in the book because it's well known among my friends. And I live in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, which is like the donut capital of the East Coast. And I am on a first name basis with not one, but two of the local donut people because You know, in my one precious life in the donut capital of the world in this era, I'm not going to, ah you know, I'm not going to give that up. So that would probably be a big one, although we could have another hour to talk about them all. But that's what I love about social prescribing is because it's not I think I think some of the most sustainable health advice is about like not restricting yourself from anything 100 percent of the time ever.
00:54:39
Speaker
Maybe there are a couple of things, but in general, like it's really just about building your routine so that most of it is in the direction of health. And those things should feel good. you know It should feel good to eat mostly healthy. It should feel good to be doing what matters to you. So yeah, that's that's my take on that.
00:55:02
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there there's no point in extending the life if you're not enjoying it, right? It's like the the people on vacation are like, oh, the food's terrible in such small portions, right? Like, no, yeah let's make it worth living before we worry about extending. It's got to be both.
00:55:17
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Julia, i I have enjoyed this so much. I really, and knowing how busy you are with the book tour, with everything else you have going on, the fact that you took the time to come share your story and your journey and all the the things you've learned over the years. I can't thank you on behalf of our listeners and myself enough. Thank you.
00:55:38
Speaker
Thank you so much, Andrew, back at you. Thank you for for paving the way for this. Your work has changed so many people's lives, and it's such an honor to be here. Thank you for joining us on today's episode of the Home of Health Fan podcast. Remember, you can always find the products, practices, and routines mentioned by today's guests, as well as many other healthspan role models on the lively.com. Enjoy day.