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How to Embed Sales Training into Your Company’s DNA: Tips w/Terry Arnold
54 Plays2 years ago
In this episode, Brian Dietmeyer talks to Terry Arnold, a seasoned member of the Sales Enablement Collective, about the challenges and misconceptions surrounding sales training and methodology. They dive into the pitfalls of relying solely on traditional sales training to solve revenue issues and emphasize the importance of fostering a disciplined sales culture. Terry shares insights from his extensive experience, highlighting the need for a structured approach to achieve behavior change and performance objectives.
Timestamps:
01:11 The ineffectiveness of large-scale sales training
03:00 Importance of a structured sales discipline and culture
04:17 The cost and opportunity cost of sales training
07:07 Embedding training into the organization's DNA
13:06 Importance of consistency and discipline in sales training
21:16 Ownership and accountability in sales behavior change
24:09 The impact of AI on sales training and measurement
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Transcript
Introduction and Overview
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to another edition of Close Mode, the enterprise sales show. I am Brian Deepmyer, the CEO of Close Strong. And today, I'm really lucky to be here with Terry Arnold, who has got a lot of experience, is currently a member of the Sales Enablement Collective, has been a VP of Sales Enablement, VP of Marketing, VP of Ops. So we have lots of good stuff to talk about today. Terry, welcome to the show.
Can Sales Training Alone Solve Revenue Problems?
00:00:29
Speaker
Thanks, Brian. Really happy to be here.
00:00:32
Speaker
So as, as you and I were talking a little bit last week, um, we, we were touching on a couple of topics. One is, Hey, we've got a revenue problem. Let's train the salespeople. And, and I'm going to paraphrase here a little bit, but you said, look, there's a huge mistake in thinking that sales trainings going to solve all of our problems. And, you know, we need to sort of ask a bigger question, which is what does sales leaders do need to do to hit their performance objectives? But I want to go to that, that first part first about.
Cultural Issues in Sales Organizations
00:01:01
Speaker
You know, people think I'm going to roll out sales training in groups of 20, you know, over the next year, announce it at SKO and roll it out. And then boom, stuff's fixed. Evidently, according to you, stuff isn't fixed after we do that.
00:01:15
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you know, Brian, we've all been a part of it, right? We've all been a part of these massive sales trainings. And the reality is even the last one that I was a part of, you know, early on in the process, we recognize this is pointless. And you know, even sales leadership, we were talking about just the dread of having to go through this, you know, this idea in the beginning, it's like, well, this is going to address the problems and get us to a place where we're going to really increase our performance. You know,
00:01:42
Speaker
The reality is it never really addressed the larger issue at hand, which is we don't have a culture which is designed around sales discipline and managing the details associated with getting that customer through the process. We just have people that come in, they bring their book of business, and we assume that they're just going to manage those relationships the way they always have, and they're going to achieve the objective. The reality is as we turn our sales methodology, our objectives, our goals,
00:02:12
Speaker
uh, our vision even over to people to manage existing customer relationships. And it's just, it's, it's
Structured Sales Methodology
00:02:18
Speaker
perilous, right? It's just perilous to really operate that particular way. So it's, uh, there, there, there's a lot of lovers that, that leaders can pull to sort of execute these objectives, but, and, and certainly I think we both agree that sales methodology, it's not without value, but, but what role should it play in kind of the, the overall plan of hitting objectives?
00:02:41
Speaker
Well, I mean, the reality is we need a discipline, right? A structured discipline. I totally agree in sales method. I would never say that the sales training is ineffective or worthless. That's not true. It's just the reality of this is it's just not implemented in a way or in an environment or a culture that's going to breed success. So what makes it successful is you sort of have specific objectives in the line. What are we trying to accomplish at the end of the day?
00:03:10
Speaker
And the reality is, is what you're trying to accomplish is change in behavior. We're trying to see a consistent methodology that brings behavior changes in reps that allow us to achieve our performance objectives. And those objectives then become measurable as well as our behaviors become measurable. And that's really where I think we see a lot of challenges in organizations today is we'll just put this in place and we're gonna measure the end result. We're just gonna measure did we achieve our performance objectives
00:03:39
Speaker
And the reality is, like you said, there's a lot of levers through that process. We break this down, we need to focus on what those are, and then deliver some methodology to train and then measure, are we getting a behavior change? Without that, it's just, it never really achieves its objectives. Yeah. And most of the measurement I've seen both as a former VP of sales and a former methodology CEO.
Debating Sales Training Effectiveness
00:04:00
Speaker
Is that, um, you know, the, the thing that's measured more than anything is what most of us, uh, maybe not so fondly referred to as smile sheets. Oh, the sales team really, really liked, um, you know, Joe was the trainer and he or she did a great job. And so I wonder, here's a huge frustration to me that I've asked several guests. So American companies spend 26 billion a year on sales training.
00:04:25
Speaker
And that's rather massive investment and that's bigger or smaller depending on, you know, who's measuring it, but it's a huge number. And, and I've heard so often, Hey, you know, the thing about sales training is if prep walks away with one to two things, it's really worth it.
00:04:41
Speaker
And as a former methodology seller, my response to you, Terry, if you were the VPSL saying that is bull crap. No, it's not worth it. And what people miss is not only the cost of having that methodology brought into the organization, paying for the trainers.
00:05:02
Speaker
The opportunity cost, you get 200 reps out of market for two days a piece. That's 400 selling days. That opportunity cost is a way bigger. And so walking away with one to two things and it's probably worth it. Absolutely not. Why the heck does that persist? Where else do companies spend $26 billion and go, eh, if we get one or two things out of it, maybe it'll be okay. Yeah, you know, I totally agree with
Integrating Training into Strategy
00:05:27
Speaker
you. I mean, and it's dangerous as well.
00:05:29
Speaker
The opportunity cost, yeah. I think back to one of the ones that we had done, I think it was probably eight weeks and it was almost like an hour and a half a week for all of us on Zoom going through this training process. I mean, the cost of that was just incredibly challenging. But the biggest danger, I think, Brian, is, you know, if someone takes, you know, one or two things away,
00:05:51
Speaker
Maybe that does help them. I mean, the reality is, is most people forget that stuff within really even a couple of days after the training. But the danger is, is that they hold onto a tool or something that seems to work for them for a while and they integrate it into what they're currently doing. And then the reality is, is how do we track that? I mean, what kind of behavior is actually changing or what kind of environment is the salesperson on their own, right? Creating for the sales process that we can't manage, we can't track.
00:06:20
Speaker
And we have no idea if it's actually going to hit our goal. So we get at the end of the day, we're looking at our sales performance, and we go, Gosh, we did all this training. Why in the world aren't we moving things along the way? Well, what were we trying to accomplish, right? And are we actually getting the results that we trained for?
00:06:36
Speaker
And it's just, it's challenging. And I know we're going to talk about this later, but we get into sort of sales leadership and regional sales management, those types of levers, which is, they're poorly cooled as well. You know, it, it's interesting to me. I, I, maybe you can tell I'm super passionate about this subject and I was when it was my methodology I was selling.
00:06:55
Speaker
I would often, as, as I said to my team, go, go rat ourselves out with our own customers to say, you spent 400 grand with us last year. And after the training events, nothing's happening. You're, you're just buying training events from us. So it was, it was, you know, my own frustration with feeling good about what I was doing for a living back in my previous organization. People loved what we did. However, you know, it, it, it wasn't sticking. So yeah. And, and you, I think back one of the reasons.
Impact of Consistent Training
00:07:25
Speaker
I executed a huge research project years ago with selling power magazine and standard register corporation. We studied 150 companies who had deeply embedded the training into the DNA of their workplace. And, and, and I was, I was fascinated to know we did surveys, then we did focus groups and we, we really dug into this. And, and I'll tell you the number one driver of, of embedding DNA into the sales organization was that it was connected
00:07:52
Speaker
to a larger strategic initiative. It was seen by executives as a way to get something
00:07:58
Speaker
executed. And I often feel like, you know, I don't bring that research to enough people because that is the story I can tell you. And I interviewed this gentleman for the research, Mike Mcarver with KLA 10 core. I traveled all over the world with this guy, he was an SVP of sales. And there were, there were the same methodology sheets on desks all over the world. And I asked him, I said, Mike, how did you pull that off?
00:08:22
Speaker
Like this is literally we've been in every region of the world together and i see these and he was the one that backed up the research he said look we were a company that was selling. National we're growing and selling nationally in the semiconductor space and and then we started going growing globally but we're still selling nationally and you know and our customers started buying globally from us and we're getting we're getting our butts kicked because customers had global buying strategy and we had local selling strategy.
00:08:51
Speaker
And so they went out and bought a methodology to install a global selling strategy. And from the CEO on down, it, it, and I'm just wondering how you, uh, and you react to that, that that's, that it's using it strategically. And it kind of goes back to that question earlier about what role does it play? I feel like, man, if, if, if you're buying
Outdated Practices in Sales Training
00:09:10
Speaker
the thing that executes strategy, then it'll get implemented.
00:09:14
Speaker
Yeah, you know, I had a really positive experience with a training process years ago back in my career at Heart Hanks. And they put in place a Miller Hyman methodology. They were very consistent about ongoing training and our business changed. I mean, the nomenclature change, the language that we use to describe our customer relationships and the challenges we were experiencing and the obstacles we needed to overcome.
00:09:42
Speaker
There was just this common language. We all had a framework that we could really communicate where deals were and what were the obstacles and what were the next steps. And like you said, all of the reporting that was moving up into senior leadership was consistent. It wasn't some Excel spreadsheet that they just jammed together from a conference call about what's going on with our deals. It really was able
00:10:03
Speaker
these deals in the process? And do we have the things that are necessary to see it close? And are we seeing these things close as a result of the efforts that we're putting in place? You're absolutely right. I mean, there just has to be a fundamental discipline within the business that says, this is the way that we're going to do it. And they got to be beholden to it. Because as soon as, you know, the wheels fall off, you know, then we go, we
00:10:26
Speaker
we flip to another methodology or we flip to another process. And again, then we have no consistency and no deliberate execution going on at all. So I had the same experience. And I think you're absolutely right. I mean, you need to talk about that research and demonstrate that companies who do this succeed. And it's so logical, right? It's so logical.
00:10:46
Speaker
And I also wonder how much of this is simply legacy practice.
Top-Down Commitment in Training Programs
00:10:50
Speaker
You know, I did this in my last company and so I'm going to, I'm going to bring it in here and I had the same expectations of results and how much is legacy practice and how much is, is the model again, as you and I both say methodology has a place, but is the model of how we're doing it broken? And, and maybe, you know, I often wonder and I'm asking this question to you legit, like,
00:11:12
Speaker
So is, is the core problem legacy practice and is, is the solution that we need to in today's market, we need to think about a new model for getting this out and getting an instituted. Yeah. I think, I think what's broken is.
00:11:32
Speaker
training that's out there. But if it's not implemented, effectively measured and held accountable for what it's trying to do, then it's one of our entire conversation, right? It's just pointless. And that's where it's broken. I mean, it's the companies that I've been with and have struggled, you know, they didn't have a discipline, they tried to put some in place, it didn't get any adoption. A lot of people never thought it was worth it in the beginning.
00:12:00
Speaker
And, um, you know, that's an environment, which is a, that's a difficult, sometimes toxic culture to deal with, you know, and you can't, you can't get a lot of things done in that kind of environment. So it really starts top down in terms of, you know, we've got to put together, I mean, if you're, if you're beholden to a process and some companies are not, and I get it because they recognize their culture will never support it. And that's fine.
00:12:23
Speaker
But if you're going to invest in the process at the time, like you had said, and what that's going to cost in terms of opportunity and usage at that time, you really have to go at it wholeheartedly. That's where it's fundamentally challenged, I think, today. It is culturally.
Role of Sales Leaders in Coaching
00:12:38
Speaker
You just got to be in a place where it works. And that goes top, I mean, we talk about, you know, top culture, right, and how senior leadership works, but really moves even further down into mid-level managers. You know,
00:12:52
Speaker
One of the training programs we had recently gone through, what we didn't do was, you know, go to our regional sales leaders and say, here's what you do now, right? So this is what your world looks like. So these are the things that you got to look for, and these are the things you got to reinforce and coach. And, you know, I have a blog on my website about this, where, you know, we oftentimes take good salespeople, I mean, people who are really good in their pressure, and we turn them into a sales leader.
00:13:20
Speaker
And the reality is they're good at selling, right? And they're not necessarily really good at training and about holding people accountable. They're used to making them deals. So what happens to that kind of person, what happens is their salespeople tee up opportunities for them that they rush in and go manage on their behalf.
00:13:39
Speaker
and close them. It's just like, what do we do in here? And then the reality is your regional sales leaders are so stressed because their calendar is so full of meetings each day where they're responsible for closing the deal. And the reality is it's just not working.
00:13:56
Speaker
Well, yeah, you're morphing into something I wanted to talk to you about in there. There's a couple issues here. One is, uh, I remember when I was a national account guy, I got national account guy of the year for the company I was with. And then I got promoted to VP of national regional director and then VP. And I remember my, my mentor said to me, you've been a rock star for the last seven or eight years in your career. Your job now is to develop other rock stars. And that's.
00:14:19
Speaker
That's an entirely different mind shift. And the point you make about coming in and closing the deal for you, I had in my past company ahead of sales that my sales team
00:14:33
Speaker
worship.
Transitioning from Individual to Team Success
00:14:34
Speaker
They, they love this guy. But I also realized the thing that you just said, they were scared to death to sell without him because it was his magic. He used to say to me, just put me, put me in a room with a customer and a whiteboard and I will get something done. And he did have the ability to conjure magic in a room, but we couldn't, we couldn't scale that. Right. So what, what is the role of, of frontline leadership? You know, where, where have you seen success with methodology adoption and the role of a frontline leader?
00:15:03
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's recognizing where you've got gaps, right? So it's like being observant of the sales process and the salesperson and recognizing, you know, are they actually exhibiting the behaviors that we've trained for to achieve the objectives that we want? And rather than just jumping in and fixing it, let's jump in and talk to this individual seller about, you know, here are the things that I think could help you achieve, you know, better performance. If you focused on these specific issues,
00:15:33
Speaker
I mean, everybody's so anxious. I mean, and rightfully so. I mean, these first couple quarters, you know, 24, a little challenging, especially in the tech space and everybody, you know, every deal is precious. I mean, and you don't want to lose anything, right? So the natural reaction, right, is to run in and let's not lose it, right? But at the end of the day, like you said, it's not scalable. We need to teach these people to recognize, you know, where we're experiencing
00:15:58
Speaker
challenges, how do we actually observe what these behaviors are and then coach them back to where they need to be and do it within the construct, right? So if we built a process for doing this, let's do that within that construct. And then that way we can, like you said, scale up to get where we need to be.
00:16:15
Speaker
Yeah. I wonder, I'm going to go back to this, you know, is, is the mode of delivery just fundamentally broken?
Integrating Training with Sales Enablement
00:16:23
Speaker
And, and it's, I was speaking with a global sales enablement lead and she said, well, yeah, methodology training company rolls it out and it's our job and sales enablement to put it in context.
00:16:35
Speaker
And, and that is an accepted practice that seems problematic to me. And I've been sort of preaching this a little bit that I feel like doing both of those simultaneously, like my previous company was a negotiation training and consulting firm. And we made this move from not how do you negotiate, but how do you negotiate your value against this specific competing alternative to achieve this set of commercial terms. And I feel like if, if that
00:17:00
Speaker
if that leap is made, frontline managers and reps are going to pay closer attention to it. I'm just wondering about your reaction to that. Yeah, I mean, I think providing that level of skill that that frontline salesperson needs to better understand the competition or positioning, a lot of that can be the role of sales enablement. And I've spent a lot of time doing that where I'm trying to really understand
00:17:32
Speaker
to a proper tool where someone can access it in a time of need and be able to share it in a way that moves this discussion down the line. So Sales Enabling I think really does have a fundamental role
00:17:47
Speaker
in taking what a training organization has provided and then adapting it in a way that applies to what our messaging is, what our differentiation is, and how our products are better. I believe that. That's where I think it becomes a little problematic in some cases.
Responsibilities in Sales Enablement
00:18:09
Speaker
When you look at sales results, and you look at the output of sales, and then you look at the inputs which are coming from organizations like your training organization or your sales enablement team, and you look at the inputs coming from enablement and the output of sales, and if you don't look at what's going on in between that, we oftentimes think that, well, the training that we have is not getting the results that we need or the messaging that we've created and delivered
00:18:38
Speaker
and the content that we've created and delivered is not producing the results that we want. The problem is ownership, right? I think that's really where the challenge exists. So if you think about it, sales enablement has the responsibility and the accountability for taking product messaging, marketing messaging, overlaying it to sales methodology and language, and then making it available. That's the responsibility of enablement.
00:19:07
Speaker
And then the reality is that needs to be linked to a very specific end result for sales. Like take, for example, it sort of begin with the end in mind, right? If you think about quota attainment, right? Let's start with, we really want to see a larger percentage of our reps achieving more quota. Well, how do you do that?
00:19:24
Speaker
We do that by building better relationships with customers and prospects around the narrative of our products and services and get those to a place where they begin to generate revenue because we've built relationships that were effective in maintaining it. So what's the product, take the step back from that. Then we need training, right? On how to have a role play conversation around our products and services that really help contribute that to relationship, which actually get the quote attainment.
00:19:53
Speaker
We need to sort of link all those together, but there's owners in there, right? The owner of the creating the training piece and making it available is the responsibility of sales enablement. That's what they do. The behavior, that's the input, right? The output is the behavior from salespeople who actually are building those relationships. And we're measuring, are we actually getting the number of relationships
00:20:18
Speaker
Do we have people at a place in the funnel, which is meaningful and eventually profitable at the back end? Those are the measurements that really help us then begin to evaluate our output. Did we actually get quota attainment and are we getting a higher percentage? We've got a thread that runs through everything that we do.
00:20:37
Speaker
And we can largely say, all right, so if we tweak this a little bit, that is directed specifically to an objective where we need to see behavior change in order to get the results that we want. That's where I think all of this begins to come together. And then the last piece of that is ownership and accountability, right?
00:20:56
Speaker
If you're not getting the number of initiatives put together on the enablement side to address the pain points that you have to get the results that you want, that's the sales name of the problem. Then we need to address that. Or it's a sales methodology problem. We need to figure out what those
Challenges in Defining Sales Process
00:21:11
Speaker
inputs are. The middle piece is the one that I struggle with the most. It's like, well, who owns the behavior chain? That's where we talked about that sales manager.
00:21:22
Speaker
You know, they need to be accountable for behavior change in the teams in which they're managing. If they're just managing results, like you said, they run in and close the deal, right? And the reality is that's not going to be sustainable long-term.
00:21:36
Speaker
And it's not going to get us to where we need to. So much. And I'm sure you're seeing this and anyone here listening is aware of it painfully, uh, firsthand, but outreach just came out with a really interesting article that it's like sales has a process problem. And that's, that's, that's not very sexy, but, but it was, it was damn right on. Like when, when I read it and I think, and I'm paraphrasing, sorry, outreach folks, but you know, in the environment where everything was expanding.
00:22:05
Speaker
Who knows, what do we want to call it? The last 10 years, the last whatever. That process wasn't that important, but in 23, with all the uncertainty, in 24, we've got to get kind of back to the basics to use it, cliche. And so just, and I think that's a lot of what I'm hearing you say. Like we may need to get back to that systemic process and look at all the levers we're pulling. But it's funny too, and another thing I'd love your reaction to, I just saw another piece of research.
00:22:33
Speaker
that 70% of reps are loath to fill out another blank form. And that blank form could be the purple sheet that you're filling out from this training or your CRM. And yet that's
00:22:49
Speaker
that keeps coming out. And I think a lot of training is that way. It's like, all right, we're going to give you this and then fill it in for your account at the end. And I wonder, I think we all know that that's a problem. That's the way it's always been done. But this is the part I would love your, well, actually reaction to that and then
Using Technology to Simplify Sales Processes
00:23:05
Speaker
this. Remember years ago when guided selling was a thing, too? Like it, but it kind of, I don't feel like it ever really,
00:23:14
Speaker
really came to fruition and Upland software just put out an article about what is guided selling, which I thought was kind of fascinating because it's, it seems to be resurrecting a little bit, but I think it's tied to that no blank form things. This is what rep said. I do not want to fill out another blank form, but I will take guided selling, which is give me, give me content, give me data that helps me sell against this competitor in this moment in time. And, and maybe that's.
00:23:44
Speaker
Part of the the core problem with methodology is that we need to to not not have a two-phase approach to methodology and then we put it in context but boom just let's put it in context right away because What I see from looking at this research is reps are saying oh, I will take that Yeah, yeah, you know I
00:24:03
Speaker
I think, and I totally agree, that asking salespeople to fill out another form is not helping. And it's a challenge, really, is, well, then if you're not going to fill out a form, how are we going to measure it, right? Right. There are technologies which are coming into play now that, you know, does your
00:24:26
Speaker
are enabling a level of observation that we've not seen before, right? And then AI is giving us an opportunity to only observe, but to recognize patterns and our patterns aligned with our objectives. And if they're not, there's some things that we can do in order to remediate that.
00:24:45
Speaker
So I totally agree that having salespeople have to fill out more stuff is increasingly more challenging. Because really what they're looking for and what they deserve is, how do I do this better? That's all they want. All they want to know is, OK, if you've observed the behavior of one and it's not in alignment, then show me.
00:25:05
Speaker
How do I make this better? Because they want to be successful. We all want them to be successful.
Inadequate Discovery in Sales
00:25:09
Speaker
It's not about adoption. I mean, oftentimes we think if you just do everything that I told you to do and fill in everything I told you to fill out, you're going to achieve success. Well, how are they behaving? It's not what they do and how are they behaving? Yeah. And I do believe that the precursor to that is maybe the model of the way we're bringing it to them is broken.
00:25:30
Speaker
You know, so we in, in, uh, in my new company, one of my co-founders and I, we interviewed 60 as execs, just kind of architecting our solution in the podcast. Now we've talked to 50 plus sales leaders, sales and the element leaders, CROs. This is amazing to me. I'm going to go back to this 26 billion we spend on sales training.
00:25:50
Speaker
One of the most common problems I hear is we suck at discovery. We're not doing good discovery and then therefore we're selling products versus solutions. We're reacting to what the customer thinks they need versus us prescribing a better solution.
00:26:08
Speaker
again, that really street level problem with why is and I'm not joking when I say nearly 100% of now it's been over 100 people we've talked to in leadership positions, who've invested heavily in some discovery methodology. And they're still complaining, we're not executing discovery. And and we're selling products versus solutions. This is the basic. Well, yeah, I mean, it's foundational, right? If you if you really haven't properly addressed what the customer is trying to solve, you know, you're just going to be throwing stuff against the wall.
00:26:36
Speaker
And you can't really differentiate if you don't really know what it is they're trying to solve. But as a salesperson, it's comfortable selling the product. It's comfortable. So I have a widget. Here's what the widget does, and here's why the widget is better. It doesn't really matter what you're trying to solve, but here's why this widget is better. That's the pathway that most people tend to go down. And that's not the kind of behavior that we're looking for. And it comes back to that foundational question like,
00:27:02
Speaker
what's broken, well, you don't really know what's broken if you don't have a methodology to understand what you're actually doing. So you're just sort of winging it, right? You're just trying to throw another band-aid out there to try and fix something that you don't fully understand is the challenge. And that's kind of the process problem, right? If you don't have the process, you can't back up through it and see where we're broken or where we're missing.
Conclusion and Call for Community Feedback
00:27:25
Speaker
Yeah, I really appreciate you and I had a pre-call. I know you did some work before this and your time and your ideas. You've been super generous with both. And we think of this podcast as kind of a community sharing place for those of us who do the job every day to say, hey, what are others struggling with? What are they thinking about? And so I will encourage those of you who listen to Terry and I chatting through this.
00:27:52
Speaker
If it's posted in a place like LinkedIn, um, we want to keep the conversation going, give Terry and I feedback about, Hey, you guys are crazy or th this is right on. And this is what we've done to make it better, to keep that notion of community going. Yeah, definitely. You know, cause it's not like we've got all the answers, right? I think we're all just rustling around in this trench, trying to figure out like, how do we actually take what we know and understand to achieve the objectives out the backend and
00:28:18
Speaker
make mistakes. I mean, a lot of mistakes alone, but, uh, you know, the reality is feedback is so, for all of us to understand, you know, is this making sense? Yep. And I bet I've been hearing from, from more leaders lately, which is, is really cool to me leaning into the human side of what we all do, that this is really, really stressful. We all get a lot of no, so that kind of thing and sharing in this community, um, really helps. And again, thank you so much for, for your part in that. It's really appreciated.
00:28:47
Speaker
Oh, you bet. I appreciate it. Really do. Love the conversation. Love chatting with you anytime around this topic. Thanks.