Transcript
Brian: Hello and welcome to another episode of Close Mode, the Enterprise Sales Show. I'm Brian Dietmeyer CEO of CloseStrong the home of Precision Guided Selling. Today, I'm really lucky to be here with Robin Schweitzer.
Brian: And Robin is a marketing and sales enablement leader. She's done stints at CallSource and Patronix. Robin, welcome to the show.
Robin: Thank you, I'm so honored to be here.
Brian: So we were, i was intrigued when we first met on mean on your LinkedIn profile, you talked about uniting marketing, rev ops, and enablement into one operating system, which immediately kind of made some sense to me. So can you give us a high level idea about how you did that?
Robin: Sure. You know, i have this theory that a lot of companies look at functions, you know, by function, the marketing function, the sales and event function, the CS function. and we really need to start talking about the a system, right? It's like a revenue system, really is a revenue system.
Robin: having each of those departments.
Brian: Yes.
Robin: And if we treat it more like a system where, and I also think of it like a relay race, each department is a runner in this race for excellence in customer engagement and or product delivery.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah.
Robin: and when you start looking at it from that perspective, that means there's gotta be less friction You have to have KPI alignment. You have to have the stages that everybody participates in lined up and outlined.
Robin: So some of the things that I did early was sit in each department to understand what it is they are. What's their KPI? What are they doing? Right? What did they have to do?
Robin: And by just starting to understand those things was, was like the first foundational piece that I did. So I was aware of what their mantra was for their function and what was the mantra function for sales. So we could be aligned and start mapping to that, you know,
Brian: it's It's interesting, Robin. What you make me think of is I think think I may have wrote about this a couple of years ago, but I've also done some procurement consulting in my life. Sorry, salespeople, but I have consulted to the dark side.
Brian: and And, you know, as part of that work, I ended up doing some research into like procurement made this transition from procurement to supply chain management.
Robin: Yeah.
Brian: and And the whole notion of supply chain management, it was in the eighty s I think it was Booze hamilton Hamilton who started it. But they were trying to unify the various touch points of the supply chain, right which made total sense. And so what you just said, i started calling it revenue chain management. Will you talk about the system?
Brian: like what what are all the well How do you unify all the different people touching the revenue chain for new, for renewals, you know all the way through?
Robin: yeah
Brian: Yeah.
Robin: <unk>s it's It's a system and you have to have that relay race from lead generation to reinforcement and retention. you know it's It's this constant cycle and and the smoother it is, the less friction you have, the more alignment of goals that you have. it's not you know my What I say is revenue doesn't happen in departments, it happens in a system.
Brian: Yeah, I agree. So what were what were a couple high-level obstacles you ran into in trying to unify this system?
Robin: yeah, I, I will tell you that I ran into this across my career and I, I think it still goes on today and it it's KPI misalignment. And what do I tell, what do I say about it? Let me give you a live example.
Robin: At one point I was at a company where sales were down and i was still on the enablement side and it was their directive was sell it, sell at all costs.
Brian: Yes.
Robin: We have to get revenue in the door and we're going to do it.
Brian: Yeah.
Robin: And because of the efficiencies, operations was told no late orders, no late orders anymore. You're not allowing any late orders.
Robin: Well, in came one of the largest orders that I've ever been part of, $5 million. dollars And operations says, yeah, we're not going to take it because it's late. But yet the KPI for sales was sell at all costs.
Robin: So now what you had was this internal fight and conflict because they're doing it and operations was doing what their mantra was, which was no late orders, right?
Robin: Sales is doing their mantra. And when I broke it down, i went back, i went to a VP meeting and said, let me show you how the KPIs are misaligned in our buying cycle right now. And that example, i was brave enough to take it to the VP suite because you got really great people doing really great work.
Brian: Yeah.
Robin: aligned to what you want them aligned to. And if you misalign that at the top, it causes all kinds of chaos within the system.
Brian: Yeah, and before you and I are going to transition into sort of more tactical conversation and follow up to how we started a couple talking a couple weeks ago, but what can you point to a couple sort of key outcomes from from this work? What were the results of of kind of unifying these systems?
Robin: Yeah, a couple of things. Certainly, I'm going to think of the things that are most important in buckets. So qualified pipeline, there's pipeline and there's qualified pipeline.
Robin: right? a very different definition. You can get pipeline all day long if it's not qualified pipeline or not the right pipeline, but just getting everybody in line, a qualified pipeline, which then leads to better forecast confidence.
Robin: And then that leads to deals that are going to close faster, which then leads to salespeople being working on opportunities that are energizing and close, and then it increases win rates.
Robin: It's like, you know, it's like a no brainer when you step outside of it, but when there's volume coming at you a hundred miles an hour, you're not, you can't, you have to remind these, remind yourself of those things, that not every deal that comes to you is going to close right away.
Brian: Yeah.
Robin: It doesn't mean no. It means, is it the right thing to work on right now?
Brian: Yeah.
Robin: So I think qualified pipeline, better forecasting, win rates, and really, i think better energy for salespeople to be confident and be you know have energy to go do the next deal.
Brian: I mean, the the thing I love about those results is those are pretty much the usual suspects of things that people struggle with. So if unifying these systems gets you there.
Brian: All right. So as you and I were just chatting a couple of weeks ago, we we were kind of, me one of the things I like to do on this show too is is get to like some really tactical, usable stuff.
Robin: Yeah.
Brian: And one of we started having a conversation about the evolution of enablement given market ships, right? where We're buying and selling in in a different world today, especially post-COVID. And one one of the areas we spoke about, which is of great interest to me, is sales methodology. And I know you have experience with value selling, MedPic, et cetera.
Brian: And how would you say the traditional rollout of methodologies is out of step with the reality of of where people are selling today?
Robin: Yeah, let me start with sales methodology because that word gets people freaked out in in business, and especially on the sales side.
Brian: Hmm.
Robin: What the sales methodology isn't, it isn't teaching you how to sell. Most sales methodology should be or done correctly is a decision making framework.
Robin: It's about how you assess everything that's coming at you, like I said earlier. It's opportunity readiness. It's teaching discovery.
Robin: I'll use the word of consultative discovery, confirming ICP, ultimately improving the energy and the time that deals are doing with the deals that they're working on.
Robin: So it's more of a framework than it is.
Brian: Yeah.
Robin: you know A lot of times, When you see methodology coming down the back, like, oh oh my God, here we go. Like think think, you know what, this is flavor of the month. But real methodology is really about deal readiness and and energy spent and reframing all the stuff that's coming at you as a salesperson. That's the first thing I want to say about, uh, sales methodology to your question about what's at a step. it's like, it's one and done, right? We, we roll it out.
Robin: And everybody's rah-rah. And you know what? I see a spike in participation in the first 30, 45 days. And then, right, everybody's clapping and high-fiving. But 60 days later, it's right back where it was because there isn't a continuity of reinforcement.
Brian: Yep.
Robin: There isn't an alignment with leadership taking that baton from enablement and making sure that that's reinforced in one-on-ones, reinforced in forecasted meetings, reinforced across behavior.
Brian: You know, yeah, I'm sorry, Robin.
Robin: So.
Brian: i just have to say to you, it's like the what what you just said, i fundamentally agree with. and And it's sort of like the emperor has an no clothes thing.
Brian: Like and this is, I think of methodology training as a lever that we have to pull as leaders. You know, one option we have to pull as leaders. And we pull this lever a lot.
Robin: Yeah.
Brian: and and And I had a sales leader say to me once, you know, the great thing about sales training is If people take one or two things away from it, it's worth it. And in my argument at the time, i was in the sales training business, yeah just like you just did, you shook your head. I just said, no, are you kidding?
Brian: Like you you you spent, you a hundred people in your sales team. You spent maybe a hundred, 150 grand rolling this thing out. Plus, you had 200 people days out of market, not selling.
Brian: And you're saying if they take one or two things away, it's worth it?
Robin: Yeah. yeah
Brian: It's sort of like the the bar is so low and everybody's kind of accepted. you know this I mean, the sales rollouts really started in the 80s, and it's pretty similar today.
Brian: So let's let's transition. what What do you think is is more relevant for today or or what's needed? if If you could design a more relevant solution, what's needed?
Robin: Yeah. You know, just in time enablement, in the deal, in the moment enablement.
Brian: Hmm.
Robin: that they don't have to go elsewhere, that they could be on the move when they have these micro learnings. An example would be you're having a recorded call. It's being recorded.
Robin: your The customer or the prospect is talking about their fears or even their needs are. And what's popping up on the side of the screen, reinforcement of things that the rep can use, real live data perhaps, case study information that's happening right when it's happening, not afterwards, not something that they have to study and and remember.
Robin: So it's like really methodology that's in the moment and in the deals.
Brian: Yep.
Robin: oh
Brian: So there there, yeah, I'm sorry, connected to that. And this is where our conversation wandered into. So you you talk about just in time, which I think is awesome. And and I agree with it. Another kind of accepted practice and a huge frustration is that, you know, maybe we announced a methodology at SKO and then there's a spike, like you said, and then nothing happens.
Brian: I've found a ton of frustration lately with leaders talking about sales strategy. and and and the fact that like what what happens in a PowerPoint at the management team level isn't translating to to the deal level. and And sales strategy is a broad statement. So for for this question, I'm talking about you know goals and initiatives that leaders have that fall upon salespeople to execute in the field so not every aspect of strategy right needs to be connected to to reps and deals but it could be you know hey we want a multi-thread we're pushing a new product we're pushing in and a new solution or commercial terms focus and chips so do there there is an issue with
Brian: making this, Jim Dickey, one of my mentors and friends, a former founder of CSO Insight, said to me once, you know, at SKO, we announce a new product over the weekend, and then on Monday, the reps go back and sell the old product they were selling on Friday, and the customers are buying it.
Brian: That's kind of it almost accepted practice, but also a huge frustration with leaders now. What do you think drives that disconnect between here's what the leaders want us doing and and here's what reps are actually doing?
Robin: Yeah, you know you hit on it already. Leaders, and T-Suites play at the macro level and they have thoughts and this is going to be the next best thing at a macro level, let's go.
Robin: at the Monday morning meeting when everybody's on the call. That has to be broken down in increments at the deal level. What does it look like at the deal level?
Brian: Yes.
Robin: What does, I'll give you maybe a MedPIC thing about the are the buying the buying decision cycle in MedPIC. What does it really mean? We took that and broke it down to, you could have a champion, but he might be a champion because he wants it, but it's not a priority for the company.
Robin: So it's a false champion. right Like really giving them ways to break down how does this, what does it mean to have a buying, you know, the buying committee and breaking down the buying committee.
Brian: Yeah.
Robin: You know, we took MedPick and made sure that we installed it inside the CRM by level, by highlight of what this looks like. Not only do you have a champion, what is a champion? So there's constantly, it's making sense at the deal level.
Brian: Yeah.
Robin: Now that's not easy to do.
Brian: Yeah.
Robin: It's not easy to do. It's a lot of work. And the problem is we want to go super, super fast to get great results and super, super fast. that It takes time for this kind of behavior, especially when you have been practicing go to school, everybody's rah, rah, you come back and you do whatever you want.
Brian: Yeah, well, you, you you I'm sorry, Robin, you spoke a moment ago about like, yeah i
Robin: It's like,
Brian: maybe we'll use different words because I can't remember yours exactly, but it like translating the sales strategy into the the deal cycle or deal components. and And I've been, to this is an interest of mine. I've been talking to a lot of people about this and and there's some easy examples. Like if you've got, you've got you know a new product or a new suite that you want to be selling.
Brian: It starts with qualifying. OK, so how how do you translate that strategy into actionable actionable things for the reps? And then, as you say, how do you have the just-in-time enablement to get them there?
Brian: So it's like, when you're qualifying somebody, what do the qualifiers look like to sell the new thing versus the old thing?
Robin: Yep. Yeah.
Brian: What does a qualified opportunity look like now? stakeholder engagement. Who should we be talking to? What new KPIs can we impact with this new thing? You know, what kind of discovery do we need to be doing now to find opportunities to sell the new thing? how How does it change our competitive positioning? You know, all the way through to what are we putting in front of the customers? It's actually not too tricky now with with available technologies, but but I think with the folks I've been talking to, like this is a a new idea of of breaking down strategy into actionable components that track with the deal cycle. How do you make, I just did this with one of our customers the other day. It's literally one step at a time. Okay, if we want this done, how do we qualify? Who do we need to be talking to? and's But I don't know many folks that are doing it
Robin: yeah it's i think I think because it's's it's a little bit time consuming in the beginning to break it down. right and It's like we should have product personas.
Brian: Yes.
Robin: right you got You got buying cycle personas. You got title personas. Who is most likely to buy the product in a persona perspective?
Brian: Yeah.
Robin: Because then you're getting down to the people that are buying it and the behavior that has to happen. like Even frameworking you know in this new product, who's most likely going to at a company got ICP, but even what even in the framework, what's the persona of value that this person, what what who's going to get the most out of this?
Robin: And it could be that, you know, who's going love this the most? The CFO, because it saves them this much time, which equals this. So the CFO is going to be right.
Brian: Yeah.
Robin: It's really understanding where the value sits and making sure that if there's several persona values within it, you're hitting those across with your you the sales cycle.
Brian: Yeah, it's interesting too.
Robin: So
Brian: like We've been referring to this as is the execution level. right we We have like sales methodology, which I like your idea that it helps reps make better decisions. I would add to that that it also helps them guide buyer decisions if it's done properly.
Robin: Absolutely.
Brian: but Yeah, this this this changes the role of reps to one of selling things, to executing company strategy, which is kind of cool. You talked about motivating reps. like this is we We just did some of this work a week ago. Like, hey, this is your job. And when you create that conversation,
Brian: between management and reps about strategy, there there's some pushback.
Robin: Yeah. Sure.
Brian: Like we've we've seen recently some pushback from the reps going, hey, you you told us we're trying to conserve capital. I need to throw a million dollars at this renewal to get them to to double the size of their thing.
Brian: you know is that realistic because your strategy is conserving capital right now and and what's cool is creating that conversation where reps in bite-sized pieces have access to strategy execution i'm i'm seeing that they actually really like that role
Robin: And they need what's next. They really do need what's next. And and the goalpost has to stop changing at the top as well. There's a lot of that going on where one minute you're focusing on this, the next minute you're focusing on that.
Brian: but But it's funny you say that because that was that was just in my head that the other reality I'm hearing from folks is that I had a VP of sales. She said to me that, you know, the equivalent of annual planning is now happening quarterly because our value, competitors' value, customer needs, geopolitical stuff, like stuff's changing so quickly. But so I think the reality is we've we've got to have a system in place to accept real-time changes and then just in time get it in front of the rep.
Robin: Absolutely. And that, that means we even need more of that breakdown because change happens so fast that, you know, you could be focusing on one change one month and then the next month we're switching. So in order for the reps to grab what's changing, you need to break it down into what's the value, what's the pieces, you know, feed them exactly what. And I think, you know, enablement is about value proposition,
Robin: need assessment, also about really, really putting your hat on as the customer, like you like you're like you're working for the client you're talking to, right?
Brian: Yes.
Robin: And getting deeper than the sale. The example I use is like one of the things that we also developed, I took discovery and broke it into three pieces of discovery. for MedPIC because I realized just from from listening to calls and it's a really complex sale. So there's one, there's the actual technology discovery you have to do.
Robin: There's the pain point discovery that you have to do. And then there, where does this pain sit at the CEO level of the client you're talking at?
Brian: Yeah.
Robin: Right.
Brian: Yeah.
Robin: And what was happening is that we, we have, They were great at going in and asking the technology questions. What CRM are you on? What tech stack do you have? But they really fell down on, a little bit better on pain point, because that's pretty obvious. It's the prioritization of where it sits in the company is where we got better.
Brian: Yes. Yeah.
Robin: We got really better at that because I isolated it as something separate. Because I'm like, listen guys, there's three things I want you to do really great. and And even had different questions and different things that they could assess at the time of discovery on all three of those.
Robin: Instead of one big discovery, it's breaking them down to micro things that have to be identified.
Brian: I, yes, I completely agree. And I feel like for enablement and revenue leads, you know, the the the job or the focus has been, you know, how do how do we sell?
Brian: and And I would say it's now, how do we sell in alignment with strategy, especially when that strategy is shifting?
Robin: Yep.
Brian: and And that, and I believe there's kind of a lack of focus on that. And and again, we're pulling levers that we've maybe always pulled. And and the the the world is different.
Robin: Oh gosh. Sure.
Brian: we we could this could be we We could spend a good hour on this one easily.
Robin: gosh you
Brian: But yeah, I love teeing it up. and And I love you. You've been super generous with your time and your ideas prepping for this. and And I thank you. I think about closed mode is kind of a body of knowledge for those of us who do the work.
Brian: And I would encourage anyone you know to go to closedmode.media and look look for a subject you're wrestling with and find your peers who who are talking about how do you how do you align these various functions into systems or where's enablement going.
Robin: Yeah.
Brian: this is We try to make this really tangible stuff, and you've done that today. I super appreciate your your time and your energy. Thank you.
Robin: Thank you. Thank you so much. You have a great day. And but I looked CloseMode today, and it was awesome. I'm like, I subscribed immediately.
Brian: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Robin: Okay. Thank you.
