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00:00:01
Why Strategy Fails to Reach the Front Lines w/Mohsin Syed
42 Plays27 days ago
In this episode, Brian Dietmeyer talked with Mohsin Syed, President and Chief Startup Officer at KiwiTech, about the critical gap between sales strategy and frontline execution in enterprise sales. They explore how strategies often fail to translate into actionable steps for sales teams, despite the meticulous planning and investment at the leadership level. This conversation sheds light on the role of technology, especially AI, in bridging this divide and enhancing the execution of sales strategies directly at the deal level, making it a must-listen for sales leaders looking to boost their team's effectiveness and alignment with corporate goals.
Timestamps:
00:01 Introduction of Mohsin Syed and the discussion topic.
00:46 Initial discussion on the strategy to tactics layer in sales.
01:42 Mohsin explains why strategies often fail to reach the front lines.
03:36 Mohsin discusses the disconnect between strategy design and practical action.
05:07 The role of AI in transforming sales strategy into actionable guidance.
10:05 Discussion on the continuous adaptation of sales strategies to market changes.
13:40 How rapid strategic changes impact the need for connected sales processes.
17:04 Benefits of aligning sales teams closely with updated strategies.
23:14 Real-world implications of aligning sales actions with corporate strategy.
28:08 Closing thoughts on the future of strategic execution in sales.
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction to Closed Mode Show
00:00:05
Brian
Hello and welcome to another episode of Close Mode, the enterprise sales show. I'm Brian Dietmeyer CEO of Close Strong, the home of Precision Guided Selling. And today I'm really honestly excited to be here with Mohsin Syed, who's the president and chief startup officer at KiwiTech.
KiwiTech's Business Model
00:00:22
Brian
If you're not familiar with KiwiTech, I find it a fascinating business.
00:00:26
Brian
They not only build engineering solutions for startups, but they also invest in what's next. and Mohsin's also been an enterprise sales leader, so welcome to the show.
00:00:37
K3XS2
Brian, thank you so much. it's It's a pleasure. I've been really looking forward to this conversation since we met about like almost like a month ago in Miami. So excited to do this. Let's let's get let's get it cracking.
Sales Strategy vs. Execution Gap
00:00:50
Brian
So yeah, we you're right, we did meet and we were having some coffee and and our our conversation with was what what you, I believe, termed the the kind of a new category, the strategy to tactics layer.
00:01:05
Brian
and and for For those who who who are listening to this, and we're having this discussion, that companies pour billions into sales strategy, you know new messaging, new product priorities, go-to-market initiatives, but very little shows up at the deal level. and and I liked this notion of the strategy to tactics layer as the connective tissue sort of between strategy, leadership intent, and frontline execution.
00:01:29
Brian
so It's been frustration for people in the past, and the whole dialogue you and I were having is, with technology now, like we we can do that. It's not optional. We can make a connection between what leaders want people doing and actual behavior change and application at the deal level.
00:01:39
K3XS2
Right. move
00:01:45
Brian
So let me me start with a question for you. you know and And the crux of our discussion was, you know why does strategy fail to reach the front lines and get executed?
00:01:57
Brian
so why Why do you think that is? why Why do we have a difficult time saying, here's where we're going to go, but we need behavior change to make it happen?
00:02:05
K3XS2
No, thanks Brian. It's a great question, but let me kind of like step back for the benefit of listeners, give a little bit context about where my viewpoints come from, right? We all are built and, you know, molded by the experiences that we have.
00:02:14
Brian
Yeah, please.
00:02:20
K3XS2
So a big part of my career has been in enterprise sales leadership over the last 25 years, specifically the last 15 years at KiwiTech. I've been working with you know of founders, revenue leaders across US, Europe, GCC and the wider APAC markets.
00:02:40
K3XS2
And I think what I feel, and again, lot of these opinions are personally my observations of what I've seen, but I think the most fascinating thing that I've observed is almost no company fails because they lack strategy.
00:02:50
Brian
Yes.
00:02:54
K3XS2
you know What I feel is they fail because strategy collapses Because, you know, like when a moment a deal becomes real, you know, we tend to always look at strategy living in leadership offsites, in decks, in memos. But if you look at it from a sales standpoint and from running sales teams, execution lives right inside live opportunities in calls, in your emails, in your proposal reviews, right?
00:03:22
K3XS2
And the problem is there's usually nothing connecting the two. So I believe that the gap between intent and action is where those sales wind rates flatten, forecast break, and reps default to whatever they feel convenient, right?
00:03:25
Brian
Yes.
00:03:37
K3XS2
So I think that's where I feel why strategy fails to translate into real outcomes for businesses, because strategy is kind of designed for alignment.
00:03:49
K3XS2
You know, it's not for action, you know? And because and i think a lot of things I take as a leadership, part of the leadership team responsible for it, because I think for years we've been answering questions like, who are we targeting?
00:04:04
K3XS2
What's our priority? How do we compete? Right. But if you look at your sales teams on the other end, you're answering a very different question every day. and And that question is pretty simple too. What do I do next in this particular deal, right? So you see the difference when the leadership is kind of like looking at, you know, like,
00:04:24
K3XS2
You're still in the parking lot of the building. And here, the the sales reps are actually on a live play wanting to know, yeah how do I go for the next three or five yards?
00:04:27
Brian
Yes.
00:04:33
K3XS2
you know So I think that's the basic difference. right and so And I think there's also very few systems that are out there that translate that strategy into state-specific, deal-specific guidance.
00:04:48
K3XS2
And what ends up happening is then reps revert to habits. And if someone has bad habits or does not have well you know grounded habits, then you know deals break.
00:04:58
K3XS2
you know Not because they don't care, but if you look at it, speed beats theory when the coda is on the line, right?
Effective Sales Strategy Execution
00:05:07
Brian
Yeah. Yeah. You know, you know it my friend, mentor, Jim Dickey, who is the founder of chief sales officer insights. He said to me, you know, about a year ago that, you know, we have SKO, we announced who knows a a new product, a new solution, a new suite.
00:05:24
Brian
And we do that over the weekend. And then on Monday, all the all the reps go back and sell the same thing they were selling on Friday. And the customers are asking to buy the same thing they bought on Friday.
00:05:32
K3XS2
Right. Mm-hmm.
00:05:35
Brian
and And so there's you called it the connected tissue, which I really like. The other thing that you said was this notion of stage-specific actions. right So if you are, and and you and I chatted a little bit about this, it's sort of like if we have this new thing we want to do or sell, well, what does a qualified opportunity look like?
00:05:35
K3XS2
right
00:05:55
Brian
Who do we need to be talking to? What kind of discovery do we need to be doing? you know how How does this change our competitive mindset now? and and i think
00:06:03
K3XS2
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:06:04
Brian
get like getting into the weeds a little bit on that. That's kind of how you translate that down. And I'm wondering if you could expound a little bit, just go back to your stage specific thing, if you want to add anything to what I just said, because I think making making this tangible for folks who are listening is is really important.
00:06:22
K3XS2
Now I have the, I think, fortune of working both from an enterprise, you know, large deal transaction standpoint to small and medium, right? So let's look at two scenarios, right?
00:06:31
Brian
Yeah.
00:06:33
K3XS2
Now, when you're talking about a deal specific or a state specific situation, today, a lot of those sales decisions in the enterprise world is a matrix of a lot of complex personalities that are dealing with things, right? So you have the CXO, so you have the CEO you know who's got a whole bunch of stakeholders that he's reporting to.
00:06:57
K3XS2
You got your as CFOs, you know, who are entrusted with the top line, bottom line demands, right? And then you have a CIO, a CISO. And and and there's there's so there's a variety of complex, I would say, personalities, right?
00:07:13
K3XS2
you know, aspirations, all trying to, at times, sometimes they don't work in the in the interest of the organization itself collectively, right? Individually, they all probably are doing a fantastic job, but sometimes it're not aligned because each one is sometimes incentivized or discentivized to do things the other way around. In that system, to go and sell and create that alignment,
00:07:36
K3XS2
is very, very tough. So what you really then need is at that particular stage, who you're dealing with, it doesn't really matter who you've been speaking to, right? You now has a sales team.
00:07:49
K3XS2
have to understand at that stage where the real, you know, who's really holding the ball, right?
00:07:55
Brian
Yeah.
00:07:55
Brian
Yeah.
00:07:55
K3XS2
And sometimes it's the special teams that win.
00:07:59
K3XS2
You know, and and you just cannot overlook that fact. It's sometimes that that specific you know director in finance who had some you know issues in his past life with that pipe type of a deal that brings in and kind of completely blocks the deal. So I think that's what I believe that in our systems and processes need to be there to be able to navigate the teams to take control of such scenarios. Right.
00:08:25
K3XS2
Now, if you look at the small and medium enterprises, like you know like where they're dealing with one or two decision makers, right? And that calls for a completely different matrix.
00:08:34
Brian
Yeah.
00:08:34
K3XS2
You cannot make it overcomplicated. You just have to go with, I think, and from a decision making standpoint, it's rather simple. but it's also pretty quick a binary thing. You don't have the the luxury and the liberty to draw out you know like a six point plan, right?
00:08:53
K3XS2
It's just like you're there at the register, you gotta to get him to buy it now. and and and And then also ensure that he's buying it or you know she is buying it in the interest of the business outcomes, what they tend to achieve through So I think the situations have become much more complicated Because it's not easy to go from, you know, dealing with these different types of customer behavior, different type of stakeholders, and the power struggle is real, right?
00:09:23
K3XS2
How do you handle a human element, right? It's not just about value creation, value matching, value mapping. Now, I think you got to have much better, you know, know psychiatric skills, you know, than real sales training skills, you know, all of those...
00:09:39
Brian
Well, you, well, so yeah, two quick things. One, we we've talked about this, that sales training is how to sell. And when we talk about this this this connective tissue, this strategy, the tactics layer, it's how to execute your strategy.
00:09:47
K3XS2
Right. Right.
00:09:53
Brian
And that might sound like something basic, but to me, it's a fundamental shift from we're teaching reps how to sell versus we're teaching reps
00:09:53
K3XS2
right
00:10:03
Brian
how to execute our strategy. And in the tee-up, and a moment ago, you talked about systems and processes for this connective tissue. and so And we also said it's no longer optional, given the technologies that are out there. What do you think the role of technology is in this connective tissue now, especially AI, of course?
AI in Sales Strategy
00:10:25
K3XS2
Right. And so, I mean, i will we we'll kind of also look a little bit about what has been there with us over the last few years and and and then and then kind of like, you know, step into the whole AI thing, right?
00:10:36
Brian
Yes.
00:10:37
K3XS2
And I believe a lot of issues or failures is because of that this whole thing being a systems issue, right? Because strategy, according to me, is very periodic. You have quarterly reports, annual reports, but execution is something that you're doing continuous cycle, right? It's daily, it's hourly, right? And again, that's the failure, right? Because what has happened is the technology solutions that we've been using in the past, you know, CRM's big fan of it. They track activity.
00:11:05
K3XS2
of The sales enablement tools, they deliver content. Coaching helps, but it doesn't scale across every rep and every we deal, right? So now what you're seeing is strategy pretty much will decay as soon as volume and complexity increase, right? And I think that's where I feel the role of AI is gonna help all of these organizations who are going adopt it because I believe AI is the inflection point because it allows now strategy to become more contextual instead of static, you know, instead of telling reps what the strategy is, you can guide them on how a particular strategy applies to this deal at this stage against this competitor.
00:11:47
K3XS2
Right. And I think that's the real breakthrough that one-to-one, in context in context guidance delivered at scale, I think that's the power of AI. I think, you know, and and I'm a big, big proponent of it because I think what AI can really do is it can quietly guide your next best actions inside those live opportunities, you know?
00:11:57
Brian
Yep. right. Yep. Keep going.
00:12:10
K3XS2
Now, you're basically taking strategy, which is just kind of like, which has always been this aspirational element to making it more operational. And that's what I think I'm excited by platforms. You know, like even platform like Crow Strong, which, you know, like one of the things I love about it is that it embeds strategy directly into deal execution, not generic data.
00:12:32
K3XS2
And now you have the leadership intent translated into actions, and that gives everyone in the team, you know, a winning recipe to deal with.
00:12:41
Brian
Yeah, you make me think of a podcast I did a while back with someone who, I read his book several years ago, Francis Fetes is a Harvard professor, and he wrote, he was writing about this years ago, about his book is entitled, one of his books is an Aligning Strategy and Sales.
00:12:59
Brian
And I think he was he was talking about it long before we were.
00:13:00
K3XS2
Mm-hmm.
00:13:03
Brian
and And it's interesting when i when I did the podcast, he said, you know, when he wrote that book, He had to lay out all kinds of like human processes to do that. and And as we started talking about what you just said about about AI, he's like, that that connective tissue is there now.
00:13:19
Brian
So I wonder, just on to the next question, I'm seeing strategy change kind of faster than ever.
00:13:30
Brian
It used to be annual planning, and BP of Sales told me that you know we do the equivalent of annual planning quarterly now.
00:13:37
K3XS2
right
00:13:38
Brian
Everything's changing in the market so quickly. what what What are you seeing and and how do you think that impacts the need for this connected tissue?
00:13:47
K3XS2
And you know what, as much as we we could debate about it, I think that's the new reality of business. strategy Strategic change is happening monthly, even weekly, right?
00:13:54
Brian
Yeah.
00:13:58
K3XS2
Because there's so much that's going around the world that honestly, a lot of things are beyond our control. They're beyond even the controls of boardrooms, right? it definitely overwhelms the front line, right? And I don't think reps are such racist strategy, you know?
00:14:13
Brian
Yeah.
00:14:15
K3XS2
New ICPs, new messaging, new priorities, and they all get layered on top of active deals that are already pursuing it, right? So what I think we require is a system that can dynamically adapt execution to actions, right?
00:14:32
K3XS2
so that reps don't just by default, you know, default to what they feel safe about it, right? And I think that's what I think what we need is the faster strategy cycles without execution support will actually reduce deal quality, even when the strategy itself is right, right? So I think from that standpoint, I think we're dealing with this pace of strategic changes.
00:14:59
K3XS2
And I think that's where I think factors like, or technology solutions like AI can actually play a much better role in helping us process ton of information, ton of changes, right?
00:15:12
K3XS2
And then contextualize to something that we could implement within the teams almost on a daily basis, right? I think that breaking down of
00:15:19
Brian
Yeah.
00:15:45
K3XS2
So i think i think that's I think AI is that answer to that changing strategy.
00:15:48
Brian
Yeah, well, and what what comes to mind as you're saying it is like, all right, we've got our current strategy that's shifting. We want to be pushing this now and not this other thing, or we want to be selling more upstream. and And so we've got our current strategy. We've got a deal we're working on, and we've got a stage we're at.
00:16:04
Brian
and And when you talk about contextually, what comes to mind is this notion of just and done.
00:16:04
K3XS2
Right. Right.
00:16:09
Brian
That that that is that is what we need. that Here's my strategy. Here's the deal. Here's the stage I'm at. How do I connect this right now? I'm getting ready to go to discovery.
00:16:18
K3XS2
if you
00:16:19
Brian
What should I be looking for?
00:16:21
K3XS2
right
00:16:22
Brian
So what do you think the the impact will be of this if companies can get good at this? I read a stat a while back that these numbers are directional and accurate, but something like 50% of strategies are actually executed, and then 90% of them don't deliver on the financial promise or the revenue promise the strategy.
00:16:49
Brian
And so I guess I'm leading the witness a little bit here. But yeah, well in in your sense, if companies figure this out, why? Why should I do this? What's in it for me?
00:16:57
K3XS2
I think you've got to look at three critical things that will change immediately if you start getting this right. and I'm a big believer always that put the team first, so we'll go with the team, right? I think the team stops guessing.
00:17:10
K3XS2
The reps will execute with confidence, which I think is the most important thing. And that's what I wanted every day when I come to my team meetings is just taking the guesswork out of your in our workflow, you know out of your deal flow.
00:17:21
Brian
Yeah.
00:17:25
K3XS2
right Let's execute with confidence. Let's execute with the information that we have. Let's execute with the tools and processes that we have in place. right I think that guesswork, taking that out collectively as a team, I think when confidence is in, it's a different song and dance.
00:17:41
K3XS2
right Second, I believe that you know we all talk about you know trainings and coaching and all of that. It's very, very important. And I think what we really need is managers.
00:17:52
K3XS2
And when it's done well, managers coaching decisions, not just outcomes.
00:17:53
Brian
yeah
00:17:57
K3XS2
you know And it's going to have a significant impact on business results if if managers start doing that. right Because everybody understands what is need to be achieved. you know But what...
00:18:11
K3XS2
Is someone going to do to achieve that? That's what I think the real coaching is, you know? And I think that's where some of the best managers, best coaches that are out there, they coach decision, the process of why you have to take this particular decision, this particular step, not just worry about the outcomes. And I think that's very, you very important.
00:18:31
K3XS2
And I think you will see a lot of that do happening well within your teams. Third, I believe leaderships or leadership gains much real-time visibility into deal quality and execution risk, not just forecast. you know we We've been just like more consumers of trending reports, right? I think what this will potentially do, if it's done well,
00:18:59
K3XS2
they will know exactly you know what the deals are there on the table, which are the qualitative ones, and and what are the risks involved in it.
00:19:03
Brian
Yep. Yep.
00:19:08
K3XS2
So I think as a leader then, you are now pretty much kind of reverse engineering your strategy based on the actual execution outcomes that you and your teams are achieving out there.
00:19:20
K3XS2
Because I think when strategy gets embedded into every deal, not just at a very organization level, I think revenue becomes more predictable, and which I think is a huge factor right now for so many businesses, because a lot of businesses are suffering from the unpredictability of their revenue streams, of their revenue numbers. right And it's not because people you know start to work you know much more harder or smarter, but I just believe that the systems are aligned when you get all of these things done right.
00:19:51
Brian
Yeah, a couple things come to mind when you're saying that. It's not only the revenue, it's also deal quality.
00:19:59
Brian
like we We want deals that are in alignment with our desired strategy.
00:19:59
K3XS2
Right.
00:20:04
Brian
And so it's I think it's both of those. It's like the right the right revenue. The other thing you said, Mohsen, that I love is this idea, want add to this idea of reps stopping guessing.
00:20:16
Brian
and And I think if we give them insight to strategy, your role now as a rep is not to sell stuff. Your role is to execute the company's strategy. And and you talked about confidence. And and that I think this is a cool role for the reps. And I'm just wondering how you how you feel about that.
00:20:34
K3XS2
No, I mean, I think it it changes their perspective, right? it It changes their perspective of them just not being traders and transactionists, right? it it It tells them they are building something of value, both for their organization and for the clients that they are interacting with. Now, those reps will just go a long way in not just creating trust,
00:20:57
K3XS2
with the clients because you you're going to stand out in that crowd of sales reps that these clients are going to look at, right? Someone who almost feels that, you know what? I met this guy, man. Like, he was just not a sales guy. He had a very clear vision of what that organization was doing, you know, what that organization stood for. Now, it almost gets the thing. I wish I had a sales rep like that. And that's when you close the deal.
00:21:20
K3XS2
The moment when, I mean, sales, I mean, im mean there's nothing, i would say,
00:21:21
Brian
Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:28
K3XS2
than a sales guy who sounds like a real sales guy, but leaves the impression that I want that guy in my team, right? That's when you really stand out. And that's when I think you you kind of provide merit to the craft, if yeah if I have to say that, right? Because i think I think today the leadership is getting it, right? I think, and also the execution layer is getting it, right? They they they are risk they do respect leadership strategy, right?
00:21:55
K3XS2
and the leaders have to respect frontline reality. yeah I think that that that that that equilibrium of respect from leadership and people who executing on the frontline, I think that's that i think that that respect and equilibrium needs to be established.
00:22:12
K3XS2
I think that can only be done if they are powerfully integrated with systems that both sides can communicate, both sides can trust, and both sides can work together with. It's not siloed.
00:22:24
K3XS2
And I think companies who will invest in that layer.
00:22:24
Brian
Yeah.
00:22:27
K3XS2
I don't think they would just sell better, but I think they will build trust in their numbers, their teams, in their decisions. And I think that's where the real competitive advantage lives.
00:22:36
Brian
Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting too, because when you connect, we're we're doing some work with company now, where We're kind of making this connection. and And part of the company's strategy is to conserve capital.
00:22:46
Brian
They've made a lot of investments. And so you know giving the reps access to that part of this strategy, it creates a dialogue where one of the reps pushed back and said, all right, I want to make an investment in this renewal.
00:22:48
K3XS2
Mm-hmm.
00:23:02
Brian
to expand it.
00:23:02
K3XS2
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:23:03
Brian
and And the strategy was we're not making investments. But the rep was aware of it because ai was able to say, hey, that's out of sync with your company's strategy. And what that resulted in was dialogue with management about is this right in this instance. And and to me, that that was just so cool to see that discussion between a rep and and senior leaders about, hey, I'm going to push back on this on this capital strategy we have. So I want to end with something kind of street level.
00:23:35
Brian
do Do you believe that that sales enablement and and training are are keeping pace with with what reps need now or or is that part of the gap? that
00:23:49
K3XS2
Now, I mean, look,
00:23:49
Brian
a
00:23:51
K3XS2
I don't want to sound excessively negative, but a lot of sales enablement has failed, but hasn't they haven't really
Critique of Traditional Sales Enablement
00:23:58
K3XS2
failed. I think it's the problem of not evolving to the changing times and the changing business scenarios, right? A lot of training methodologies out there, they just can't keep up with dynamic selling.
00:24:12
K3XS2
Because today, even if you look at a lot of conventional, you know low-tech businesses, have an excessive technology integrated layer, even if they don't see it on the front end that's happening.
00:24:24
K3XS2
like A lot of training does not account for that. So I feel the future isn't more content or training content or more dashboards.
00:24:27
Brian
Yeah.
00:24:33
K3XS2
I think the future is more precision guided execution delivered in the flow of work. Now, and I think that's where, again, it's important for people to, for both the leadership, the strategist and the people who are executing to come together and understand that what I really need help with.
00:24:54
K3XS2
you know and And that getting translated into those enablement tools, practices, and training methodologies, rather than training them something on on on a concept or on on a process or on some kind of a tactics or a strategy that they don't even appreciate.
00:25:15
K3XS2
you know So i think and I think that's what I think we need to do.
00:25:15
Brian
Yeah.
00:25:18
K3XS2
it It's got to be more dynamic. It's got to be more inclusive. And then I think there is that, you know, top down has always been the way I think we need it to be much more re-engineered so that these, you know, sales reps feel that from an enablement and training standpoint, they are receiving what they really need and where they need to get better at.
00:25:43
Brian
Yeah, I'll kind of sum up our in-person chat a month ago and again today. like What I keep hearing from you is this strategy to chat is connected. Contextualized and stage-based. like Get it out of the PowerPoint and out of the clouds, with which which I love. and that That message continues to resonate with me. so You've been super generous with your time and your ideas, prepping for this and and executing it today. and and I think of This closed-mode show is kind of a body of knowledge for those of us who live in this space, right?
00:26:15
Brian
So our our peers can come and listen to other peers.
00:26:16
K3XS2
the
00:26:19
Brian
So you've added to that greatly, especially on a kind of a new idea. So i really appreciate all
Integrating Technology in Sales
00:26:25
Brian
of that. Thank
00:26:27
K3XS2
No, thank you, Brennan. I think, you know, like, look Sales is something that we all human beings do in some format, the professionally, personally, you know selling to yourself you know at the end of the day you know or at the beginning of the day. you know like Why do I need to show up to work? you know
00:26:45
Brian
Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:45
K3XS2
It's part of a sales process internally that that you have to deal with. And I think that's where I think it's very important that I think where I feel technology, AI could help us immensely is to integrate and invest in those systems. You know, as organizations are evolving, look at systems that can fairly bridge the gap between strategy and execution. i don't think it's something that needs to be left to a few experts.
00:27:17
K3XS2
I think it's about but or bringing in external experts, it's just bringing in systems and processes and and and creating that connecting tissue, right?
00:27:28
K3XS2
And if that's there, and companies start investing in it, first of all, acknowledging that things have to change, I think it will be a great way to see how people, as they say, are not called, you know, just sales guys.
00:27:28
Brian
Yeah.
00:27:41
K3XS2
They all are strategic ambassadors and strategic, you know, you know messengers of the company you know, and and and its services. And I think that's what we all love to see in the near future.
00:27:53
Brian
Yeah, no, I love that notion of it, it now is an issue and I feel like We're starting the conversation about about what we call this emerging category of the new layer. And yeah, you you've added a great deal of depth to it, and I really appreciate that.
00:28:08
K3XS2
Awesome, Brian. Thank you so much for having me. It was fantastic. Much better than I expected it to be.