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Making Sales the Most Trustworthy Profession on the Planet w/Andrew Sykes
17 Plays2 days ago
In this episode, Brian Dietmeyer talks to Andrew Sykes, CEO of Habits at Work and a seasoned TEDx speaker, about transforming the reputation of sales into the most trustworthy profession on the planet. They delve into the profound impact that trust can have on sales interactions, exploring how salespeople can bridge the gap between being perceived as self-serving and being genuinely helpful. This insightful conversation is a must-listen for anyone in sales looking to elevate their approach and foster genuine connections with their clients.
Timestamps:
00:12 - Introduction of Andrew Sykes and his mission to elevate the trustworthiness of sales.
01:23 - Discussion on why sales is perceived negatively and how to change this perception.
03:09 - Exploring the definition of sales as helping others make progress in their lives.
10:06 - The concept of 'identity trust' and its importance in sales interactions.
13:30 - How first impressions and ongoing actions build or erode trust.
17:10 - Balancing personal sales targets with genuinely helping customers.
23:44 - The importance of instilling trustworthiness as a skill in the next generation of sales professionals.
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction to Closed Mode and Andrew Sykes
00:00:05
brian
Hello and welcome to another edition of Closed Mode, the enterprise sales show. I'm Brian Dietmeyer CEO of ClosedStrong. And today I'm legit excited to be here with Andrew Sykes.
00:00:16
brian
Andrew is Habits at Work CEO, has been a TEDx speaker. and And also what I find cool is he teaches entrepreneurship at my alma mater, Kellogg. Andrew, welcome to the show.
00:00:28
Andrew Sykes
Thank you, Brian. Thrilled to be here on an apparently spring morning, but Chicago hasn't really woken up yet to that. Yeah.
00:00:35
brian
Well, we we just, i can't swear like I did in our pre-call, but we were just talking about the very tough flowers that come up and grow out of the snow in Chicago. We had we had different names for them, but I i love them.
00:00:47
Andrew Sykes
yeah
00:00:47
brian
So...
The Noble Intent of Selling
00:00:49
brian
Andrew, you have this quest that's really cool and lofty, and it's to make sales the most trustworthy profession on the planet.
00:01:00
brian
And, you know, as i and I thought about that, I guess we we all know buyers, you know, it maybe PTSD that goes back generations from bad selling. i It made me think about that, right? When I i read read your you kind of little one-line manifesto there.
00:01:15
brian
but yeah And I feel like now there's a lot of sellers maybe paying the price for bad past behavior as well. But anyway, so yeah, let's let's talk about this.
00:01:26
brian
And um'm I'm going to sneak in a question. Most people know I probably, i give you the questions in advance, but I'm going to sneak in one. what What led you to this? what Why why this this passion for this issue?
00:01:37
Andrew Sykes
Yeah. Well, what led me to this is I am myself a salesperson. I teach sales leadership and sales management and sales skills. And I'm passionate about this area of trust.
00:01:49
brian
Yeah.
00:01:50
Andrew Sykes
And at least from my perspective, to sell means to help another human being make progress in their lives, whether that's in their career or their personal lives.
00:01:56
brian
Okay.
00:02:00
Andrew Sykes
And I think that is a noble pursuit. So if sales can be such a beautiful thing to help someone really make progress, then surely that's something to be celebrated.
00:02:15
Andrew Sykes
And dare I say, it's even a noble profession.
Bridging the Trust Gap in Sales
00:02:18
Andrew Sykes
And then when you look at how people relate to salespeople, it's no secret that on every survey, salespeople are judged to be the least trustworthy.
00:02:27
Andrew Sykes
So there's this gap between my archetype of the noble, other focused, generous, helpful salesperson
00:02:27
brian
Right.
00:02:37
Andrew Sykes
And the reputation. And so either I'm just playing crazy or I've chosen one of the big problems in life, which is to close the gap between the reputation of the worst salespeople and the profound value added approach to life that the best salespeople bring.
00:02:53
Andrew Sykes
And I want to close that gap.
00:02:56
brian
Man, i'm and I'm sorry, I'm i'm actually still stuck on I've been doing this for a bit. I've been a salesperson, a sales leader at a Fortune 50, a sales consultant. And you design you define the sales as helping, I'm paraphrasing maybe, another human being make progress in their life.
00:03:12
Andrew Sykes
Yeah.
00:03:12
brian
Like that that, sorry, I'm still, like I said, it was still, that was still kind of spinning around in my head because you can, you know, I'm even thinking of the, you know, the business side of that. And I've often said that to people, it's like, we're we're all going to business. It's all really hard.
00:03:25
brian
We all got to do it. And we all have things we have to get done at work. But ultimately, those are to make progress in our life. and And I like how you you kind of even skipped over the business piece and just said, hey, it's to make progress in their life.
00:03:32
Andrew Sykes
Yeah.
00:03:36
Andrew Sykes
It's good, isn't it?
00:03:37
brian
But I feel like that's in there, right? That's embedded in your definition.
00:03:40
Andrew Sykes
Yeah, you know, if if making progress is advancing your career or solving a business problem, that's in there. And you'll notice that there's no comma at the end of that sentence as there often is in the definition, which is comma using our products and services.
00:03:56
Andrew Sykes
I don't include that because in my view, the best salesperson would say, Brian, you know, what's your problem?
00:03:59
brian
Yeah.
00:04:03
Andrew Sykes
Given your problem. You know what? I think this solution over here is the best for you. And it doesn't come from my company. It comes from an internal resource or even a competitor. So yes, are you charged to sell a product as a salesperson by your company? Absolutely.
00:04:18
Andrew Sykes
But I think the profession of sales is defined as helping other people make progress, whether or not that includes your product.
00:04:27
brian
Yeah. And this is another, this is so fun already talking to you. This is another thing that i've I've heard a couple times recently is this notion of regardless of me. And I often say, you know, it helps someone source a category, not necessarily by your stuff, but you even brought in, it maybe it's not even a category. Maybe it's best to do it yourself.
00:04:46
brian
And I feel like I have heard that a couple times recently that we're beginning to realize that that is our role of helping you
00:04:53
Andrew Sykes
Yeah.
00:04:54
brian
get that decision made, helping you make the right decision. And on on a podcast with Alice Hyman, I think yesterday we talked about even upfront of helping you make the right decision, helping you identify what is the problem you're solving for? Because there's a lot of people out there that are solving the wrong problem.
00:05:09
brian
And then if if you have the wrong problem you're going after, you're not going to find the right solution, no matter how many you look at. So I love i love that notion of yeah of even getting away from selling your thing.
00:05:16
Andrew Sykes
yeah
00:05:21
Andrew Sykes
Yeah. And Brian, worth pointing out, a lot of sales training focuses on find the problem, find the pain and fix that.
00:05:28
brian
Right.
00:05:29
Andrew Sykes
I'm not sure that it's always problem or a pain point in the mind or the language of a a customer. That's why I prefer this making progress because I want to make progress in a bunch of areas.
00:05:37
brian
Yeah.
00:05:42
Andrew Sykes
I don't consider them to be problems. For example, I want to learn to sing better and I need some help in that area.
00:05:48
brian
Yeah.
00:05:50
Andrew Sykes
But I don't consider it problem that my singing voice is terrible. Other people might.
00:05:54
brian
So other people might, right, exactly.
00:05:56
Andrew Sykes
Everyone.
00:05:58
brian
i had to call you out on that one. There could be humans somewhere. Yeah, it's funny because years ago and in my other company, and I think the author is Piero Ferrucci, I think, but he wrote a book called The Power of Kindness. And it's funny, you know how you have meeting themes.
00:06:12
brian
That was our meeting theme. And I gave that book to everyone. And I and i said during the meeting that like, If we cared more than everyone else, that's the most kick a business strategy that there is.
00:06:23
brian
Like if you literally care more than everybody else, that's a ruthless business strategy. And that's kind of...
00:06:28
Andrew Sykes
Thank you.
00:06:28
brian
it It's kind of where you're going. Yeah, I think we should adopt this definition of sales. I really like it a lot because it it changes your worldview on on everything. if That's the lens that we're viewing things things through. I also wonder...
00:06:47
brian
i'm I'm thinking back, you know, in my previous life, I was a negotiation consultant. One of my clients up in Silicon Valley had been holding a weapon to one of the biggest chip manufacturers heads in the world for years because they always had the coolest new software and new tools to help reduce defects, blah, blah, blah.
00:07:04
brian
And, and, and I, a Now the competitors were catching up. And I remember saying to my client, I refer to them as legacy practices, check this notion that you've basically been beating this manufacturer over the head for 10 years.
00:07:17
brian
And so said, it's going to take a bit to undo that, right?
00:07:21
Andrew Sykes
Yeah.
00:07:21
brian
Because it's you you're not just going to go in and go, hey, trust us, we're different. you know You're going to prove that out over time. and yeah I just wonder your take on that, on like building trust.
Challenges in Building Trustworthy Sales Relationships
00:07:31
brian
If you're starting from a neutral place or maybe if you're starting from a place where trust has been broken, how the heck, how long does it take?
00:07:38
brian
How do you do that?
00:07:39
Andrew Sykes
so One of my favorite questions. And let's start with the beginning part of trust. When you first meet someone, I don't think we start from neutral.
00:07:50
brian
Okay. Okay.
00:07:51
Andrew Sykes
I often have students in my class and people that I teach sales skills to do an assessment of how much they trust other people by category. And we look at strangers and they mostly get a sort of four out of ten.
00:07:59
brian
Yeah.
00:08:03
Andrew Sykes
And then co-workers are six out of ten and friends and family and eight or or nine out of ten. And then I ask people, like how much do you think you can be trusted? And the response is usually you know nine, ten.
00:08:12
brian
Yeah.
00:08:16
Andrew Sykes
But I'm like, but hang on a second. You just said you don't trust strangers more than a four or a five.
00:08:19
brian
and
00:08:21
Andrew Sykes
you are a stranger to other people. And in fact, you're worse than that when you're a salesperson, because salespeople are often awarded not just low trust, sometimes negative trust.
00:08:31
brian
Right.
00:08:32
Andrew Sykes
So I don't think we start as a neutral. In fact, I think the common myth that trust takes time to build is explained by this phenomenon I call a trust hole, which is a negative trust deficit that you're put into
00:08:45
brian
Okay.
00:08:50
Andrew Sykes
The moment you meet someone and they suspect you've got a self-interested motive behind what you're doing. And as a salesperson, when I'm interrupting your life you think I'm trying to sell you something you don't need on a timeframe that's uncomfortable at a price you can't afford, of course you mistrust my motives.
00:09:09
Andrew Sykes
And everyone knows salespeople make commissions. I say salespeople are not trusted because we smell. And by that I mean we have commission breath.
00:09:19
brian
Yes.
00:09:20
Andrew Sykes
So is it unfair?
00:09:22
brian
Another definition I'm stealing, by the way, is commission breath.
00:09:25
Andrew Sykes
you
00:09:25
brian
Yes. Keep going. Yeah.
00:09:27
Andrew Sykes
i say, is it unfair that salespeople are not trusted out of the gate? Yes, that's life.
00:09:32
brian
Yeah.
00:09:34
Andrew Sykes
But the the danger is as a salesperson, assuming that trust takes time to build because that's been my experience and not noticing that what was actually happening is I was trying to climb out of a trust hole I didn't know I stepped into or was put into.
00:09:52
Andrew Sykes
And that does take months to years, if ever. But all the research in trust building says trustworthiness is a judgment people make about you in the milliseconds to minutes when they first meet you.
00:10:07
brian
Yeah.
00:10:08
Andrew Sykes
Based on false signals, and they may not be accurate, but it happens. And so most of this trust that we need as salespeople and as leaders is so-called identity trust.
00:10:19
Andrew Sykes
It's that trust that I give you based on my answers to the question, who are you, character, and what do you want, motive.
00:10:20
brian
Mm-hmm.
00:10:29
Andrew Sykes
And I make those judgments really, really quickly.
00:10:29
brian
Mm-hmm.
00:10:32
Andrew Sykes
So can trust build over time? Of course it can. But is it also true that most trustworthiness is judged in the first five it's Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:10:43
brian
Interesting. So your,
00:10:47
brian
this whole issue of of trust, like i I was almost putting it into a soft, like a soft skills issue. And i no, I did put it into a soft skill issue. And and i'm okay with that.
00:10:58
brian
what What I'm wondering though is that how do you, like how do we operationalize a soft skill issue. And I'm going to add one more thing to it before I ask you to respond, because it feels like this is a systemic issue.
00:11:10
brian
If, if the head of a company is, is go out there and do bad things or go out there and make other people's lives better, right? Don't, don't do have to operationalize this at a company or at least a sales department level.
00:11:28
Andrew Sykes
I think if you don't you're missing an enormous opportunity.
00:11:31
brian
Yeah.
00:11:32
Andrew Sykes
So a few things to say about that. The first is I speak to many chief revenue officers and I ask them, you know, in life in general, do you trust salespeople?
00:11:43
Andrew Sykes
And their response is generally no, because we all feel that way.
00:11:46
brian
Yeah.
00:11:46
Andrew Sykes
And then my question is, so what makes you think your customers or prospects trust your salespeople?
00:11:50
brian
Yeah.
00:11:51
Andrew Sykes
They're no different. And so if you don't operationalize some kind of response to this reputational issue we have,
00:11:56
brian
you
00:12:01
brian
yeah
00:12:01
Andrew Sykes
then you're signing up for customers and prospects, treating your salespeople like they treat every other salesperson, which is with suspicion, fear and avoidance.
00:12:12
Andrew Sykes
So to your second point, I absolutely believe that being judged as trustworthy is a skill and not a trait.
00:12:17
brian
that.
00:12:22
Andrew Sykes
Because is there such a thing as a trustworthy character?
00:12:22
brian
love that
00:12:27
Andrew Sykes
Absolutely. But that thing isn't what's being judged when you meet someone. They're judging you based on how you look and whether you smile and how you make small talk and how you introduce yourself and whether you remember their name, all of which are soft skills that can be learned, practiced, improved, polished and perfected.
00:12:45
Andrew Sykes
And they don't yet have access to your true underlying character. So even if you tell the truth, you keep your promises and you have good intentions and you have amazing character,
00:12:55
brian
Mm-hmm.
Crafting Trustworthy First Impressions
00:12:57
Andrew Sykes
It'll be weeks or months before people get to see that character, by which stage they've long ago judged you on your first impression.
00:13:08
Andrew Sykes
And that judgment, if it's bad, will remove your opportunity to reveal your character. So people say, well, Andrew, this sounds manipulative. I have to design my first impression.
00:13:20
Andrew Sykes
so that people judge me as trustworthy? And my response is absolutely, because the alternative is they'll judge you as an untrustworthy salesperson.
00:13:28
brian
Yeah, yeah.
00:13:29
Andrew Sykes
They're going to work for you.
00:13:30
brian
Yeah. And doesn't doesn't the character get revealed in actions? So I get, I agree with everything you just said, but then I got to prove it, right? And doesn't that come in, like, isn't that, like, directly following this notion of first impressions?
00:13:39
Andrew Sykes
Yes.
00:13:44
Andrew Sykes
Absolutely. I'm saying, you know, a first impression is one thing.
00:13:46
brian
Right.
00:13:47
Andrew Sykes
It it earns you the right.
00:13:49
brian
Right.
00:13:49
Andrew Sykes
to make promises and to reveal your character over time. And I'm not for a second saying, design a trustworthy first impression.
00:13:58
brian
Yeah.
00:13:59
Andrew Sykes
Meanwhile, you're actually someone without integrity. It's both and.
00:14:02
brian
Yes.
00:14:03
Andrew Sykes
Start with integrity, but then design your first impression so that people judge you as trustworthy for long enough so that you get to prove that you really are worthy of trust.
00:14:04
brian
Yeah.
00:14:15
Andrew Sykes
And you raised a point earlier. I think there is no point in a relationship that is a better opportunity to show your character than when things go wrong and trust is broken.
00:14:28
Andrew Sykes
How you behave in that moment, I often say is the opportunity to double trustworthiness.
00:14:28
brian
Yeah.
00:14:35
Andrew Sykes
Because just think about in your life. I mean, I have my oldest friend in the world. When we were kids, and I'm talking about six or seven, we were in this situation where there's a bunch of kids who were like trying to bully us and beat us up.
00:14:49
Andrew Sykes
And he stood there side by side with me and me with him. 50 years later, I know that guy's got my back and vice versa.
00:14:55
brian
Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:56
Andrew Sykes
So I trust people based on how they behave in the toughest of times. And in a business context, when your product fails, when someone doesn't do something or the tech goes down, that's the moment when you can reveal your character.
00:15:10
Andrew Sykes
And for what it's worth, I happen to think that leading with an apology is the worst thing you can do.
00:15:15
brian
Interesting. i I have to ask you expound on that a bit.
00:15:21
Andrew Sykes
Well, if if I was late to this interview and I said, Brian, I'm so sorry I'm late. The traffic was terrible, blah, blah, blah.
00:15:32
Andrew Sykes
You being a polite human would say, Andrew, it's okay. But it's not okay.
00:15:37
brian
Yeah.
00:15:37
Andrew Sykes
And what I've apologized for is that I feel bad.
00:15:39
brian
you
00:15:41
brian
Hmm.
00:15:41
Andrew Sykes
But what you're really seeking is an apology for the impact on you.
00:15:45
brian
right
00:15:45
Andrew Sykes
And how would but I know that unless I know what the impact is?
00:15:48
Andrew Sykes
And how would I know that unless I ask you? So in my view, The way to restore trust is to simply say what happened, Brian, I was late. No excuse.
00:15:59
Andrew Sykes
And then ask you, you know, what's the impact on you?
00:16:01
brian
Interesting.
00:16:02
Andrew Sykes
And you might say, no big deal, Andrew. Or you could say, actually, you left me anxious or you got me in trouble with Marie, my producer, because it wasn't on time.
00:16:12
Andrew Sykes
Whatever it is, when I understand the impact, I can then fix it.
00:16:17
brian
Yes.
00:16:18
Andrew Sykes
I can promise to fix it or I can at least acknowledge that maybe I can't fix it.
00:16:25
Andrew Sykes
But on the basis of understanding your impact, my impact on you.
00:16:31
brian
It's funny. It's funny. That thing comes to mind, having raised a step, stepchildren, boys who are now young men, that this thing I say to them, you're not sorry, you're sorry, you got caught.
00:16:42
brian
And so that's, it's what's coming to mind.
00:16:43
Andrew Sykes
Exactly. Same thing.
Balancing Client Needs and Sales Quotas
00:16:47
brian
So all right, so not not really a mini role play here, but a really tough zero, you talked about having conversations with zeros, who have a massive weapon to their head to make the number.
00:16:59
Andrew Sykes
Yeah.
00:16:59
brian
How do you balance the your team should be out there caring about helping that human make progress in their life with making the number?
00:17:10
Andrew Sykes
Yeah, I don't have a great answer to this because I happen to think that quarter end quotas and pressures from sales leadership to discount to close a deal, give people a sign today or the price goes up tomorrow option doesn't serve the company.
00:17:14
brian
Okay.
00:17:26
Andrew Sykes
It doesn't serve the salesperson. And it certainly doesn't serve the long-term profitability of that account. So as a salesperson or to other salespeople, I would say, if going to have a career in this game for a long time, you're probably going to move companies.
00:17:44
Andrew Sykes
And the strongest asset you have is the hundred people to whom you sold in your last company, because you'll be revisiting them more than likely. And do you want to go back to them on the platform of broken trust?
00:17:59
Andrew Sykes
Or do you want to go back to them being the salesperson who said, you know, I'm under enormous pressure to close this deal by this quarter. However, my commitment is to help you make progress in your life. And if that timing doesn't serve you, you're not going to get that pressure from me.
00:18:16
brian
Yeah, you just, in my mind, you just talked about brand equity and you talked about personal brand equity and the brand equity of that rep. and and i And I think about anyone who listens to the show knows I was fortunate enough to work near Bill Marriott for a while of Marriott Hotels. and And he said to us one day, every decision you make is a deposit into or withdrawal from brand equity. and and But when he said that, we were talking about the Marriott brand.
00:18:43
brian
and and some decisions we were making with some franchisees. I just heard that as it relates to the the brand of that rep for the rest of their career.
00:18:51
Andrew Sykes
Absolutely. And I like that language of deposits because I do think trustworthiness is like a series of bank accounts. I have one with you. And every time I show up in a trustworthy manner, keep a promise, reveal my character, create a great first impression, you put some deposit in that account for me.
00:19:03
brian
the
00:19:12
Andrew Sykes
And at some point I get to spend it on a big ask like, Brian, will you buy my product? Yes or no? If you trust me enough, you might say yes. And that's the other thing I really want salespeople to get clear about. Like there is this rule in life which says first humans decide whom to trust.
00:19:32
Andrew Sykes
And that determines what we believe. So, I mean, think about every fact you have in your head, probably 20 billion of them from your belief in climate change to the capital of Egypt is Cairo.
00:19:40
brian
Yeah.
00:19:46
Andrew Sykes
Almost every one of those we learned from a teacher, a magazine, a YouTube, TikTok. There are very, very few facts we get firsthand. So in every human's life, it's true. You decide whom to trust and then you believe them.
00:20:02
Andrew Sykes
So as a salesperson, if you want to be believed about your product, your price, your value, all those other things, you just have one job, which is to be the most trustworthy person in every room.
00:20:14
brian
Yeah. i As I said, you you know I love it. And like I said, my different words were the power of kindness, but it's pretty pretty damn similar. And i I believed in it then. And I think there's there's a huge human benefit to doing this, like karma, whatever the hell you want to call it. It's just a great way to to live your life. But I also, it's funny, I was just reading this, that when when someone trusts someone, they feel that they can be more vulnerable. And in selling that person you're across the desk from being more vulnerable, shares more data with you.
00:20:47
Andrew Sykes
Yeah. And gives you the inside scoop on how you're doing and champion you.
00:20:51
brian
Like,
00:20:52
Andrew Sykes
And like there are countless advantages that come from someone actually trusting you. Or to flip it the other way around, if I don't trust you, I'm going to measure every word because I'm fearful you'll use it against me, you'll hold it against me.
00:21:06
Andrew Sykes
So you just get that thin layer, often even mistruth rather than just a thin layer.
00:21:14
brian
yeah
00:21:15
Andrew Sykes
Like when someone says, do you have a budget? Now, of course I don't have a budget or I can't reveal it. That's just a subtext for I don't trust you.
00:21:25
brian
what One of my least favorite sales questions in the world, someone just asked me at the other day and I said, no, I'm a startup.
Trustworthiness as a Teachable Skill
00:21:31
brian
I do not have a budget, so but but i'll I'll find it.
00:21:33
Andrew Sykes
Thank you.
00:21:36
brian
you know If your thing's worth it, I'll find the money you know somewhere. So yeah, it... yeah Just the other day, now you you teach, you know of course, at the at the master's level at Kellogg, but a lot of folks don't know that there's undergraduate programs now in sales. And I just did a podcast the other day with a gentleman who who leads one of them.
00:21:59
brian
And I suggested to him that it would be great for his students to listen to closed-mode podcasts because they're going to hear about they're going to hear from pros and and then have them write papers or do presentations on what the CRO or this head of enablement talked about.
00:22:13
Andrew Sykes
Yeah.
00:22:13
brian
and And man, this this is one, if if your goal is to like you know build the most trustworthy profession on the planet.
00:22:14
Andrew Sykes
Yeah.
00:22:22
brian
We we've got to get this and I'm going to do this. I'm going to reach out to a couple of deans I know and say, man, this is this is one, Andrew, really, I i love everything you're saying. And I think it's one that needs to be in front of CROs, VPs of sales, as well as babies and undergraduate programs right now to say this define sales this way, Mr. Ormiz, and you're going to do much better.
00:22:42
Andrew Sykes
yeah
00:22:44
brian
Yep. This is cool.
00:22:45
brian
Yeah, you you are super, super available with your time and generous with your ideas. And I love this conversation. And yeah, you you have made something sort of soft, tractionable for me and in my mind.
00:22:59
brian
and And I think you make more money doing it this way, too, by the way. I do agree with you.
00:23:03
Andrew Sykes
Yeah, and I don't want to underestimate this idea that being trustworthy is a set of skills, because just showing up in dignity, you you should trust me because
00:23:09
brian
yeah
00:23:13
Andrew Sykes
I think I have good intentions and I think I tell the truth and I think I keep promises. Well, that's wonderful. But that doesn't address the skill gap in between who you think you are and how you make it easy for other people to trust you.
00:23:30
Andrew Sykes
That's all skill.
00:23:30
brian
Yeah. Yep. Yep. I, I, I agree. It's, it's awesome. And, and I appreciate it. And yeah I, I need to get this in front of those 19 year olds as fast as we can.
00:23:41
brian
So I can, I can help you with this, this quest to like make us the most trustworthy profession in the planet. So yeah, I really do appreciate your time and and your energy.
00:23:48
Andrew Sykes
Awesome.
00:23:50
brian
This is a blast to do.
00:23:52
Andrew Sykes
Thank you for having me. It's been a lot of fun.