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#9 Michael Finkel on True Crime, the art of acquainting, and kleptomania
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Mike Finkel is the author of True Story, about a killer who stole Mike’s identity. His second book The Stranger in the Woods is about a hermit in Maine who didn’t talk to anyone for decades. And The Art Thief, about history’s greatest art thief. We talk about:
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- Why are we, as a culture, so drawn to true crime?
- I ask Mike why women are attracted to criminals. He gives an impressive answer.
- What’s better: soaking in a bath tub or sitting on a toilet to avoid family?
- Mike’s early influences: I Robot, Ray Bradbury, Arthur Clarke, and The Catcher in the Rye.
- Mike’s stylistic principles: make it read as if you “dashed it out”; eliminate show-offy words; apply the “bar room test.”
- Ken tries out some of his psychotherapy skills on Mike.
- Mike gives me advice on how to make a connection with criminals.
- Is there going to be a The Stranger in the Woods movie? And who should play Christopher Knight? (I make the case for Eric Lange from Escape from Dannemora.)
- On how ending a book with an ellipsis is okay.
- Ken gives the North Pond Hermit an open invitation to come on the podcast.
- What kind of kleptomaniac would you be? Mike:
- If Mike was incarcerated, would he ever let someone else write his story?
- Ken shares his jail fantasies (not what you think).
- Mike expresses admiration for David Grann.
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Transcript
Introduction to Mike Finkel
00:00:05
Speaker
This is the Out of the Wild podcast with Ken Ilgunis.
Exploring Mike Finkel's Books
00:00:19
Speaker
Mike Finkel is a journalist and the author of three hugely readable and successful books. His first first book, True Story, is about his interactions with a man who not only pretended to be you, Mike, but who, without a doubt, killed his family. like Your second book, The Stranger in the Woods, is a book about a hermit in Maine who didn't talk to anyone for decades.
00:00:41
Speaker
And your latest, The Art Thief, is about a man who stole hundreds of art artworks from many museums, making him arguably history's greatest art thief.
00:00:53
Speaker
Mike, hello.
Connections and Characters in Finkel's Work
00:00:55
Speaker
Hey, Ken. Happy to be here. um So in preparation for this, I read those three books over the past month. I'd already read Stranger in the Woods, so I reread that.
00:01:06
Speaker
And I have to say, they were just utter joys and remarkable accomplishments because there may be only one writer who can forge such deep connections with people who are probably otherwise leery of the press, and that's that's you.
00:01:23
Speaker
Can we start by, I'd just like to share some impressions about your three characters. Can we start that way? mean, sure. I mean, flattery is going to get you everywhere, Ken, so you got me in the palm of your here. Okay.
00:01:34
Speaker
okay um I mean, they were all such fascinating characters. Christopher Knight, the the main hermit, he seemed like the most whole person to me. And I mean, like the most complete person. It seemed like he had a true sense of right and wrong, even seemed capable to kind of adapt in some ways. Whereas the others, Longo and Breitweiser,
00:01:59
Speaker
they were compulsive liars in some ways it seemed like just they just couldn't fix themselves they couldn't even fully understand themselves and that was so irritating to me because i was like you know just get your shit together you're talented smart people stop lying stop stealing stop self-destructing and long ago especially he seemed like he had the capacity for self-reflection but there was just a screw loose and and his demise in some way seemed inevitable. So I'm curious how you make a distinction.
Finkel's Attraction to Outlier Stories
00:02:28
Speaker
do you make a similar distinction among these subjects?
00:02:33
Speaker
That's a lot to unpack there. um I mean, I am attracted journalistically to outliers. Let's just put it that way.
00:02:45
Speaker
In terms of whether someone's a complete person or not a complete person, I mean, that's just parsing language. Everybody is complete in their own stunted way. or no and ah But the the people that attract me are, yeah I look for stories that fit this, the the expression, um absolutely unbelievable and yet completely true.
00:03:04
Speaker
And um the first book ah called True Story About a Murderer is the one that I'm least comfortable about, but I was also not really, i didn't really make a choice about that. I was sort of the, that story was sort of thrust on me when a, literally a guy on the ah FBI's 10 most wanted list, accused of the worst kinds of murders, as if you could parse murders, but you know, his wife and his three children, I haven't had a wife and three children, ah runs around Mexico on the lam telling everyone his name is my name, Mike Finkel, and he
00:03:37
Speaker
He's a writer for the New York Times. I was a writer for the New York Times. Personal things in my life, I actually got fired just as he was using my name. So a lot of things like sort of built into this like incredible explosion that I had to do that book. But ah really, violent criminals creep me out. And I have yet to touch on violent criminals much more. You know, a couple of magazine articles.
00:04:01
Speaker
Then we got this hermit. Also named Chris, Christopher Knight. Man, I like, I'm outgoing. I make my living literally talking to strangers, but I also have a huge like internal whatever ah desire to spend time alone, especially in the woods. And this was like sort of a guy who lived by himself in the woods for 27 years, sort of beyond all boundaries. And I was just sort of fascinated to hear his story. And then Brad Fieser, the art thief, ah not just an art thief, but also stole...
00:04:32
Speaker
for like this weird, almost understandable reason, which was just to hang them in his bedroom and enjoy them. Like, you know, what do you want to do in a museum is kind of like sit on a couch and have a glass of wine, make love to your lover in front of a piece of art, all the things that are not forbidden in a museum or what you really want to do in front of great works of art. And I sort of weirdly, not jealous, but sort of kind of understood this guy's illogical, immoral thinking.
Cultural Fascination with True Crime
00:05:00
Speaker
Well, all of these kind of touch on true crime and my wife, who's who's German, and I point out he's she's German because this isn't just an American phenomenon I'm about to talk about, but true crime, like she always comes to bed at night. I'm like, oh, what were you doing? She's like, oh, i was watching something about rape, abduction, or murder. And yeah, now I'm not going to be able to sleep. So I was like, why were you watching? She just can't help herself.
00:05:25
Speaker
And it seems like so many of us are that way. what's What's your relationship with true crime? Do you consume it? Or a yeah better question is, why are we all so fascinated by it as a culture, do you think?
00:05:41
Speaker
You know I'm not sure if I have a great answer for that, but beyond the fact that um We are interested in it. There's like no question about that. So I've been fortunate or maybe just spoiled in my journalism career in that I've really had no true area of expertise. I've covered everything from theoretical physics to, you know spent time in Afghanistan during the the ah war after the 9-11 attacks. ah So wars, ah politics, religion, science, ah sports, everything. and so
00:06:14
Speaker
I just have what I call my, for lack of a better term, my journalistic spidey senses, like whatever sort of makes me interested in something, I don't really question ji why, i just acknowledge. And there is something about, especially among people that don't like to break the law, there's some fascination, undeniable, for about people who believe that the rules don't belong to them. And it's sort of like,
00:06:43
Speaker
like a car crash on the side of the highway. Like you don't want to look at it. You're going to look at it. You're going to look at it. You can't help yourself. And in my like old age here, you know, my middle age here, uh,
00:06:55
Speaker
ah Rather than feel like, oh, is that a little icky that I'm fascinated by murder? I'm like, okay, I'm clearly fascinated by it. That doesn't mean I want to go murder someone. in fact, quite the opposite. I'm a mountaineer and I spend a lot of time reading about people who die or get injured in mountains to educate myself on like what what not to do. But I think there's just a human fascination with those who believe the rules don't belong to them because I'll speak for myself, but I'm going to think that everyone's going to agree here. like In your own head, like I mean, who doesn't go to a museum and like think,
00:07:24
Speaker
I mean, I really like to have that behind my sofa or have these ideas like I could i could get away with a crime here. And like everyone has their little criminal fantasies, I i believe. um And then just like lets it float right on through their head, doesn't actually follow through. And the people that do follow through are ah interesting to me, especially the intelligent ones. I think that was the, if there's anything that links the three criminals that I've written about, the murderer, the hermit who broke into people's houses to supply himself with food, clothing, and reading material, and the art thief, they're all really bright people. They would all beat me probably in a game of chess um and completely amoral as at the same time, or not completely, but very deeply amoral at the same time, and I'm fascinated by that intersection.
00:08:13
Speaker
You point to a couple things there. You point to just the human fascination with kind of outlier ah the psychological personalities. And maybe there's also kind of this updating one's model of the world as to kind of understand it and its threats. Maybe that's just kind of an unconscious thing.
00:08:31
Speaker
One of the interesting things is that all three of your subjects, I think they were approached by by women when they were in in jail. So there's also kind of seductive about these men. And I wonder how you make sense of that. why why do you think women are are drawn to these bad boys like that?
00:08:53
Speaker
I've actually read a little bit up on this because it was fascinating. um I'll talk about the worst of the three by far, which was Christian Longo, who murdered his wife and three children. isn't He originally was sentenced to death. ah Oregon no longer has a death penalty, so he is in jail for life almost certainly.
00:09:10
Speaker
will never be paroled. um And yet on death row, when there still was a death row, he got married to a woman and I met her and she was intelligent and and attractive and outgoing. And I was like, thinking i actually was thinking to my, met with her and I was thinking, um ah like the prison guards, the free ones probably can't get women this impressive. And you yet the inmates do. and i And I read a book that sort of answered some of that question. And I'm just going to briefly tell you what settles it in my mind. Again, every case is different and it's hard to extrapolate. But I did read about people that are ah ah sort of –
00:09:54
Speaker
willing to get married where you can literally not consummate that relationship. There are no, if you're on death row, there are no conjugal visits. You literally can't even hold hands ah to to to propose to his wife. He sent her out to buy her own ring.
00:10:09
Speaker
You know, it's like, ah but almost all of these, again, generally generalizing a lot of the people that are, ah get involved in with death row inmates have had very unfortunate relationships in their past, often physically abusive, and um in which the woman felt, you know, was,
00:10:24
Speaker
physically ah battered and emotionally and um manipulated. And in if you think about a relationship with an inmate on death row, you literally you have all the power. They can only call you, kind of collect on these prison phones. You decide whether or not to answer the phone.
00:10:41
Speaker
There is no danger ah physical violence because you literally can't touch each other and the guy needs you so badly because he's locked away with all men. If he's heterosexual, there's there's no way to even get a tender moment and like he's heavily reliant on you. You feel like you have all the power and there's no danger. It's almost like The ideal relationship for someone who's had a string of abusive relationships, it almost feels like you are like in the safest possible position with a
Influences on Finkel's Writing
00:11:11
Speaker
murderer.
00:11:11
Speaker
And if that makes even a modicum of sense, you know it's sort of i'm I'm summarizing a quite complicated psychological book, but basically that was it. ah you there is no There is no threat, ironically, when you're with a locked away violent person. He cannot touch you.
00:11:26
Speaker
You are safe. Gotcha. that's ah That's an amazing answer. I thought it was partly the the the the essence of danger there or the essence of competence because they these men were all competent in their own special way, way whether it was was lying or stealing or whatever. But okay, that makes perfect sense. Yeah, I'm leaving out.
00:11:46
Speaker
You know, manipulative psychopaths are very manipulative and all those things, but really these women are bright women. and They're not idiots in general. And so therefore, you know, I feel like no one, there was a great book about it i think Women Who Love Men on Death Row, I think might have even been the banal title of this sort of scholarly thing, but it really opened my eyes to the rationale. It almost makes sense in a weird way.
00:12:07
Speaker
Amazing. I kind of jumped into the thick of things when I didn't mean to get too far ahead of myself. I remember in one of your books, you describe your family, you yeah you know, when you were a boy, um being in a room and you were all reading your own book, which is something the Elgunas family has never done before. Can you talk about your your early life and kind of how it prepared you for a literary career?
00:12:34
Speaker
This is interesting. ah I feel like my upbringing was not extraordinary, but also not ah traumatic. I mean, I feel very fortunate. at my My parents were together. i have one sibling. We all sort of got along. I mean, it's regular it's family stuff. and ah um
00:12:55
Speaker
this you know I talked to my three teenage children about what it was like to have not have a computer, not have a cell phone, and have four channels on television. And like, what did you do, dad? Did you sit around the cave between you know hunts with your club? you know It's like literally but you avoiding the dinosaurs. And so it feels that way. I mean, ah ah just from watching my three children grow up, you can't like force someone to be a reader, but my parents both liked to read books. And I i mean, I'm a writer. I i tumbled into the...
00:13:26
Speaker
The embrace of pages. To this day, I can't watch television or whatever whatever you call a screen before going to bed. It ju jumbles me. i i need to like Words on a page to me and to all fellow readers, hello fellow readers, um are are my comfort zone and and I'm just as critical as anyone else. If there's if I'm not getting along with the writer, I'll close the book or force myself to finish. But when there's that beautiful dance between the writer and the reader, man, I'm just like transported away. And sometimes ah my wife will call my cell phone from the next room over. She's like, where are you? It's 2.30 in the morning. I'm like, oh
00:14:03
Speaker
I didn't even know I fell into the book. that happened and i and And I really love that. and To this day, i i won I mean, I'll never run out of things to read. And so, i'm ah you know, when everyone was sitting around with their nose in their own book, I guess that's sort of a funny image from the outside. But you're in your part of the family that felt not only normal, just like,
00:14:23
Speaker
like That was a great way to stay out of everyone's hair in a small house or especially like in a hotel room when on vacation. And then I used to ah be forced to go into the bathroom and sit in the tub to finish reading if everybody else wanted to go to bed. And I have lots of ah memories of having a sore back from sitting up and reading in the bathtub i mean without any water and it just sitting there.
00:14:43
Speaker
Sometimes, yeah, sometimes I hide from my family by sitting on the toilet. So that's my own way of doing it. what what Who were some of your kind of literary heroes and and favorites in those formative years, you know, in your teens? and you know Yeah.
00:14:58
Speaker
I think, you know, you get a lot of... I read like crazy you know when I was really little. I remember like you know i would I would get hooked on something like you know the Hardy Boys and then you know read all 45 of them. ah But I think like you know more like young adult, high school-ish, I fell into i really loved science fiction for a while. So you're assigned this stuff in school.
00:15:18
Speaker
And let me just be straight, like most of the stuff you're assigned from to read in school Ethan Frome, even Shakespeare, it's just not that fun to read. And I feel terrible that it gives you like a bad impression that reading is work.
00:15:32
Speaker
um And to, each you know, i again, watching my own kids, like I really encourage reading something that makes it feels pleasurable. And so I remember like the first, I loved reading like, um, um,
00:15:47
Speaker
pretty much any science fiction I can get my hands on Arthur Clarke and like the Martian Chronicles and I robot Asimov and ah Brad Ray Bradbury. And then i think the first book that was sort of considered literature that like blew my brain matter out the back of my head might've been like the catcher in the rye by JD Salinger where, uh,
00:16:11
Speaker
Not everyone likes him and JD himself is a problematic person, but the voice in that book of Holden Caulfield grabbed me by the grabbing spot. And it was like maybe the first time that I sort of went into that sort of fugue state where...
00:16:24
Speaker
the greatest moment when I'm reading is that I forget that I'm reading. Like it all comes alive in my head. I'm really not conscious of like holding a page at like all yeah the voices alive and all those things are alive. And it's so much more alive than actually watching television where I am aware that I'm watching television. It's sort of a weird thing. And my fellow readers will understand and people who don't like to read will not understand.
00:16:44
Speaker
ah But I feel like the Catcher in the Rye was the first book that I read, like cover to cover without like I'm going to say without breathing, but obviously I breathe without like, ah ah while being transported somewhere else and time sort of was in its own hold. And then I started reading a lot of nonfiction and reportage and things like that. But really, they you know, those are some young, that's a young, a memory of of my youth that turned me on to reading.
00:17:09
Speaker
Having just read your three books in sequential order. Sorry about
Finkel's Writing Style and Process
00:17:14
Speaker
that, man. That's too much Finkel. No, no. I mean, talk about kind of getting lost and just like not being able to stop reading. That's my experience with your three books. It was not a task at all to do that.
00:17:25
Speaker
But i can I can very easily see the Mike Finkel style. You have a very kind of distinct style. You've got short sentences it's It's very easy reading, even when you're talking about you know academic research or complex psychological topics.
00:17:43
Speaker
I'm wondering kind of what you're aware of or any kind of stylistic principles that you're applying either during the writing or the editing process. Yeah, so how's the sausage made? And then I have talked about this a little bit. And the only thing i can tell you is like kind of the truth. And it feels like both rawly honest and inadequate.
00:18:06
Speaker
And I'm just going to tell you, like no modesty aside, I'm not really sure what I'm doing. And I really mean that. Like ah the plan is to write something as good as I can write it. But other than that, like I'm...
00:18:22
Speaker
like floundering around as much. if there's any writers or budding writers out there, like don't think that I feel ah like I am ah empowered, like I know precisely where ah where I'm going or what I'm doing or how any sentence is going to work its way out. I do a lot of research since I'm a journalist.
00:18:40
Speaker
i gird you know I educate myself as much as possible. But the truth is basically, I spend a tremendous amount of time making the work appear as if it was written relatively effortlessly and quickly.
00:18:56
Speaker
When someone says to me, i read one of your things, sounds like you just dashed it out. I'm almost like, thank you. It's supposed to sound conversation. Like I have a pretty good vocabulary not to brag, but I usually spend my subsequent drafts eliminating show-offy words.
00:19:12
Speaker
um And I guess another truth is that I try to write a book that I kind of like to read. And i think I was mentioning just a few minutes ago that a lot of reading, especially nonfiction, feels like work.
00:19:29
Speaker
And ah i do i mean, sure, if you're taking a physics class, your physics book is gonna feel like work. But really when you're reading for pleasure, which my my books are of just for, I really envision my books all being exactly one international plane flight long. So you can start it, have dinner, have a drink, watch one movie and finish it and leave it in the seat pocket in front of you on a nice nine hour Salt Lake City to Chalde Gaul flight. ah Just like you should be, it should be entertained.
00:19:56
Speaker
It should, you should learn a couple of things about yourself, but you should not have to run to your dictionary or especially on a plane where, you know, unless I'm, unless I can get wifi and I hate coming across a word I don't know. ah feel like, um,
00:20:09
Speaker
Yeah, this is a very long winded way of saying I don't really know what I'm doing and I'm always surprised that it seems to work out. um But I do like have like this bar room test.
00:20:23
Speaker
This is what I call it, my bar room test where I'll be sitting with you, Ken, or anybody of mine getting a beer and be like, what's your story about? And no human ever says, well, the sun was setting on the Western horizon, leaving camp. No one starts a story like that. You're like man, there's this art thief who went into a museum.
00:20:40
Speaker
And I'm like, oh, that's the way I'm going to start the book. The way you start whatever. When I've literally, when I'm writing, I sometimes think, okay, if I'm stuck, I'm at the bar. We just ordered two ah Stella's.
00:20:53
Speaker
And my friend turns to me said what's the book about? And then I put my fingers on the keyboard and whatever I would tell my friend is what I write down for my first draft. So I hope it has that. conversational, we're sitting together, we're buddies at the bar feel. And that's all I can tell you. It seems to work for me. Some people like it. Some people, my gosh, you we can list a thousand, go on to Goodreads and read all the one-star reviews. People sometimes hate it. And I i sort of get it.
00:21:18
Speaker
You know, it's like, I'm disappointed in myself ah about three quarters of the time anyway. Gotcha. Well, it sounds like you really care about the reading experience and that
Impact of Longo's Identity Theft on Finkel
00:21:28
Speaker
off.
00:21:28
Speaker
um I want to talk about True Story for a little bit, because that was just such a remarkable book. And I read Stranger in the Woods you know when it came out, however many years ago, seven years ago.
00:21:40
Speaker
And for whatever reason, I didn't go back to True Story. i should That should have been the next thing I read. um So true story, you kind of hit a ah road bump in your career. I don't know what you, a lapse of judgment.
00:21:51
Speaker
um We don't need to get into that. But um so an alleged murderer on the run in Mexico, he's using your identity. um And this hot story just kind of falls in your lap at kind of the worst part of your career. In your book, you you describe it as a winning story.
00:22:10
Speaker
lottery ticket. So I'm curious, would you say that both of these facts, that Longo borrowed your identity and that you experienced a failure, were they critical for creating a dialogue with Longo? In other words, you know could you have forged this bond with him without having experienced those two things?
00:22:30
Speaker
Yeah. And first of all, my firing by the new York Times is public knowledge. I've written about it. It's not like It's not like everything's not available on Google. In a nutshell, when in a nutshell when i was 30 years old, so 25 years ago, um I was working ah had a job at the New York Times Magazine, which is pretty much one of the top jobs in journalism. And ah in trying to write a very complicated ah story to make it to streamlined, I combined a bunch of interviews together, real interviews, into what's called a composite character. Some magazines, that's totally fine. New York Times, not, didn't tell my editor, was caught and was fired for creating a composite character.
00:23:08
Speaker
I feel terrible about that, obviously. and you know haven't you know my ah In the wake of that, all my books are not just fact check, but I usually hire two independent fact checkers just to make sure that everything you read, especially since these stories are unbelievable. But it was, I basically made a composite character and got fired for it and deserved to be fired for it. Yeah, if I could stop you there, Mike, I'm a psychotherapist in training. So I ask a whole bunch of intrusive questions about how you feel about things.
00:23:39
Speaker
um And i'm I'm curious, like, if you've kind of emotionally processed all of that, is that all kind of in your past in the rearview mirror? Or is it something that still kind of sits with you today?
00:23:51
Speaker
Tell me about your mother. um ah I like to answer these questions ah in bre with brevity and honesty, which is sometimes at at odds. um the The only correct answer is, I don't know if I fully process this. I mean, every moment of your past maybe stays, it's not erased. so my My briefest answer is yes, my fuck up at the New York Times has repercussions and tremors that affect me to this day in a very odd way. It made me a much better writer.
00:24:28
Speaker
um Sometimes you need to fail dramatically to understand your own limitations or something like that, but it really, I'm like a way better writer than I was before I um was fired. And right now I could have written that story that i cheated on, ah you know, making a composite character 17 different ways that would have been just fine. But at that time I couldn't really ah figure it out. So I matured. I've, whatever I've, whatever, I'm a better writer because of that. I, if I had the power to change things, I probably would, but I don't have that power. So it's moot.
00:25:04
Speaker
ah But I'm, I'm not going to say I'm glad that I cheated and got caught, but it has made me much more, different, better writer and frankly, person. Now, Christian Longo, the murderer, complete psychopath.
00:25:17
Speaker
I would not, I mean, if i had found if I hadn't been fired and I found out someone was running around ah calling themselves Mike Finkel, sure, I would write a magazine article it. don't know about a whole book, but it was like ah to this moment, 20, I guess, 25 years later, I was fired so years later, um ah every time I think about this story. So yes, fired by the New york Times, lost my name, and literally like the same, this is called the same day. It's like actually like within hours, I find out that someone had taken my name and I'm like ah heavily involved in like a dramatic murder, explosive murder ah case where the guy was literally on the FBI's 10 most wanted list at the time, along with Osama bin Laden at that time. And ah
00:26:03
Speaker
you know He's arrested extradited to the United States. And the only person I'll speak with is the real Mike Finkel. I go to visit him in jail. He says, I've read everything you've written. um I'm a big fan of yours. I had one fan, psychopathic murderer, but that's my only fan. And he said to me, I know how great a writer you are. I know. um I told him I got fired. I know that you need a good job. I will prove to you that I'm innocent. And I'm like,
00:26:26
Speaker
fruit proved to me, man. And so I was like, I was carried away on this bizarre, like the most fascinating story that ever was presented to me happened at the very moment that I most needed one. And so that's sort of like, I'll just use the term divine intervention in many of its forms, literal, figurative, but it felt like that was the only story I've ever written that felt utterly necessary. and It's interesting that you used divine intervention. My next question was,
00:26:57
Speaker
you know did this Did this coincidence kind of affect how you view life? And I hate to use the words mystically because I'm not mystical or anything like that, but it just seems so coincidental how true story unfolded that I can imagine someone seeking kind of a mystical explanation or to you, was it just an amazing coincidence?
00:27:21
Speaker
I mean, now we're getting mystical, sure. um
00:27:27
Speaker
I'll just tell you what popped in my head. This is the problem with podcasts is that I don't get to do a second draft here. ah But like, I believe that our birth alone is extraordinary, miraculous coincidence. I mean, like, I think the average, not to get too like a,
00:27:44
Speaker
ah detailed here, but the average like ejaculation is like 200 million sperm and that's the one that gets fertilized as you. Like, while you already literally won the lottery being born. Like, wow.
00:27:56
Speaker
So it all starts out with the most extraordinary improbability and everything after that is less improbable. So it's sort of like my whole mindset is that every like – The fact that Earth is the perfect distance from the sun at the right angle with the moon the right size. and just you know this Everything to me seems so improbable as to be ver verging on a miracle. And this isn't even bringing God into the equation.
00:28:18
Speaker
Just leaving physics as it is, we can leave that whole other layer to the side. So this was just another – mean – i mean ah Most people don't walk around every day thinking, God, the sun is just the perfect distance from the earth. But it is.
00:28:34
Speaker
It is. Any further, we'd be frozen. Any closer, we'd be boiled. um And so I don't go around every day thinking, my goodness, like that ah guy took my identity right when I needed my identity to be taken. But ah nonetheless, it just sort of –
00:28:52
Speaker
surrounds me like many of the miracles that do. and don't Okay. I neither take it for granted nor m muse upon it too much, but do like nod that basically miracles surround us all the time, which is of a funny attitude to have, but I think it keeps me more or less optimistic in in a sea of shit.
Moral Complexities in 'True Story'
00:29:19
Speaker
And this um book helped take you out of a sea of shit because it you know it revived your your writing career. It got made into a movie. I haven't seen the movie. I'm sure it's fantastic. It's got James Franco and Jonah Hill. I love Jonah Hill and and Moneyball.
00:29:32
Speaker
um And i'm I'm wondering if you've run the hypothetical scenario through your mind that there never was a Christian Longo and this book didn't happen. where would your Where do you think your writing career would be with without this opportunity?
00:29:49
Speaker
would would you have been able to restore it without this amazing? I mean, we're talking about 20 years ago, more than 20 years ago. So I, I mean, the only thing I can say is I, you know, I haven't spent very much time considering,
00:30:01
Speaker
ah I mean, it it did happen, so I don't really like, well, what? All I can say is rather than like wondering what would have happened if this massive coincidence, a murderer taking on my identity didn't happen, I'm really like, I hate to say the term grateful because it's really, I'm never fully comfortable.
00:30:19
Speaker
even like i Sometimes I just say, we're not talking about this book because I don't like talking about it because it is, very morally gray. And I will just, you know, tell you right off the bat, I wish with all of my fiber of all of my being that this guy did not murder free children and his wife. I wish those people were alive, but I didn't even know the guy until after they were dead. But the truth of the matter is that a psychopathic family murderer helped me.
00:30:42
Speaker
And that is a weird situation to be in. And that just is what it is. And I don't like, uh, you know i can I can peel back ah ah like layers of ah onions until the end of time and I'll never quite get to the bottom of it.
00:30:56
Speaker
Funny that the you know movie was cool. The movie was well made. It wasn't extremely popular. No one's like, honey, let's get a babysitter and watch someone murder our children, murder children. you know ah But it was really well done. People every night in every country. You know what it's like for true crime.
00:31:09
Speaker
true Yeah, true. It was a really well done movie, a little creepy. I guess I don't really like talking about the book that much. just so creepy. It's like... I don't even sometimes mention that as a book of mine to read because you have to be willing to,
Finkel's Connection Strategy
00:31:23
Speaker
you have to be interested in something a little dark as opposed to a little, I feel like we all need a little more levity these days, which the other two books are at least a lot. no one gets physically injured. You can almost, there's more chances to to be entertained and amused as opposed to horrified and shocked.
00:31:40
Speaker
Leave the promoting for me. Everybody should go read True Story. You will just be shocked by it. um And i always said, while I was reading your books, I had this, like, you could write, like, a short how-to kind of advice book. I already got a title, The Art of Acquainting, because you are a master when it comes to acquainting yourself with people. And um We were talking over emails, like, oh, you know, like maybe I'll send an email out to Luigi Mangione, the healthcare assassin.
00:32:14
Speaker
So if you're giving me some advice on how to write a letter to say Luigi, what what what would you tell me? Okay, ah so this is a great question because I did consider writing a letter to Luigi Mangione. And so the first thing I would tell you is to really research Luigi himself and find a point of connection.
00:32:37
Speaker
And I actually found a point of connection. So this is what, so then this might have not apply to you, but... ah For example, when i before his Goodreads account was closed, it was public after he was arrested. you know They bring down the Facebook, they bring down they take down the Insta, but sometimes those second tier ones like Goodreads and stuff are still up. I found Luigi's Goodreads page and the books that he had read. And then one of the quotes that he said was one of his favorites,
00:33:03
Speaker
came out of The Stranger in the Woods, my book, and I'm like, oh, wow. My goodness. which is It is no matter of health. I'm paraphrasing. It's no great sign of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
00:33:16
Speaker
like It's no great measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society. And that was a quote from Stranger in the Woods. And I was like, oh, okay. So if I was going to write a letter to Luigi, I would be like, dude,
00:33:29
Speaker
One of your favorite quotes is one one of my quotes, and that is a point of connection. And if that doesn't get you to read a letter and respond, then there's nothing that's gonna do it. So a point of connection, now that is a powerful point of connection. Chances are you won't have that.
00:33:40
Speaker
But if you go on his Slack account and you see Luigi's favorite, gay i don't play I'm not a gamer, gamer is you the game that you're that you can speak of. like don't Look for a point of connection. like There's gotta be something. You went to the same, you both like fettuccine Alfredo. Whatever it is, find that point of connection.
00:34:00
Speaker
Number two, just be honest. I believe that especially criminals are really great at ascertaining bullshitters. Like if you don't like i usually say the first line is I'm a journalist. Like I do not want anyone to think I'm trying to be sneaky and butter you up.
00:34:18
Speaker
i Not only do I say I'm a journalist, I usually include a book or something I've written and say I'm interested in writing about you. So my cards are right on the table. my My secret to contacting people is really not to have secrets, to be open.
00:34:33
Speaker
And just like I was talking to you about being fired often, i will especially since I'm dealing with criminals, will say, listen, I'm not perfect. I've had my ups and downs too. I've been fired. I use my i make some lemonade with my lemons. you know I'm like, hey, man, I know what it's like to be in trouble.
00:34:48
Speaker
Or so some like you know um' pretend like I know it is like to murder a person in cold blood on the streets of New York. But i look for point of connection and then ah don't say, like I believe you're innocent or any sort of bullshit that a that is sharp criminal will know. like I will never say, and I don't believe you did it because he's fucking did it. He's like right there on the, right there on the, uh, you know, on video.
00:35:10
Speaker
So, um, you know, be yourself, um, find a point of connection, be honest. But the other thing is, of course, Ken, uh, like in Las Vegas, when you hear all the bells of the winning, ah slot machines, you're not hearing back for all the losers. you You don't know about all the letters I wrote that didn't get answered in all my dead ends. You're only thinking that I have a lot of successes because, uh, the other ones don't make the light of day, but I,
00:35:35
Speaker
I have a very, very good batting average, but it is so far from a thousand that you can't even believe it. you know two hundred Like you know most of my letters are not returned. Most of my ideas do not come to fruition, but you don't read about them. So you don't, you're, I mean, that's just the truth.
00:35:49
Speaker
It's like, I am a full-time freelance writer today. I was working on like sending letters to people that usually have a low percentage return. You just don't hear about my failure. So feel better about yourself. Do not think that I have some sort of magic dust. You're just hearing about my successes.
00:36:05
Speaker
So if you're a true crime author and you're batting 0.50, it can be still a good batting average then. That's like one out of 20? Yeah, if if you're willing to send 20 letters, yeah, sure, sure. One
The Story and Impact of 'The Stranger in the Woods'
00:36:17
Speaker
out of 20. one of the ones you were successful with was was Christopher Knight, the North Pond hermit in Maine who, I don't think he spoke to someone for something like 27 years.
00:36:28
Speaker
um My first question about that book, and this was just wonderful because I'm a huge Walden fan. I titled my first book Walden on Wheels when I lived by myself in my van for for two years.
00:36:40
Speaker
And he didn't like Walden, but we can touch on that later. My first question is, why isn't there a Stranger in the Woods movie? like That seems like a perfect movie. Has it been optioned, anything like that?
00:36:52
Speaker
Yeah, briefly, the movie business, of course, is multi-tentacled, complicated, and not a thousand percent healthy. ah Yes, the book has been optioned. ah i don't I speak much better French than I speak Los Angeles.
00:37:09
Speaker
um So I'll just say They keep renewing the option and there seems to be a, I read a a really interesting screenplay and there's people attached to, ah to the, to the thing, but I, I am not involved in the movie business. I'm happy to let movie folks take my stuff and do as they, what they, that what they want with it. I'm,
00:37:32
Speaker
you know, happy to read a screenplay. But so I, the quick, the quick answer is, um I don't know if there'll be a movie about The Stranger the Woods, but there's one in the works, whatever that means. Meaning I'm still getting paid for the option seven years later and they haven't quit on me and there's even like a screenplay and people attached to it, whatever that means.
00:37:53
Speaker
It sounds like you're more of a reader than a movie guy, but who might you cast as Christopher Knight? Did someone come to mind, an actor come to mind when you were getting to know Christopher? sort of bad at this game.
00:38:05
Speaker
um So I'm just going to punt on that and basically say, not only am I not much of a movie watcher, I'm like, I kind of don't even really know that many. like That's the Trivial Pursuit category that just kills me.
00:38:17
Speaker
I don't really know that nut. There's someone who came to mind for me. There was this amazing actor in this um Showtime production about an escape from prison called Escape from Don Amora. And I don't know why this guy came to mind, but that Eric...
00:38:31
Speaker
Eric Lang or Lange, he was just terrific. And for whatever reason, his was his was the first face that that that came to mind. and um So not only did your letter writing skills work for Mr. Knight, but your perseverance, because it seemed while I was reading the book, there was a lot of times when Knight and his family wanted nothing to do with you and were giving you a nothing. And I just kind of put myself in your shoes And if I was doing that story, I would have such doubt and anxiety and um just feeling like this thing's you know falling apart. I can't get the people to participate. what What was going on with you as you were kind of developing this? Were you experiencing things these things or were you more confident?
00:39:18
Speaker
Yeah, were you right there spying on me? Because doubt, anxiety, and feeling like it was falling apart is about as precise as you could get it. um Yeah, I take my writing, as you as you noted, like, really seriously while trying to have it have a sense of fun. And yeah, it was blood from a stone. was like, this guy's barely talking to me.
00:39:36
Speaker
ah Can you write book about a guy who sits in one spot for quarter century and does nothing? Like, where's the action there?
00:39:46
Speaker
Like, it seemed like they all I saw was a road littered with potholes. But...
00:39:54
Speaker
couple things. First of all, I wrote a magazine story about ah christ Christopher Knight, the hermit. And so that's always a great way to test the waters, like 5,000 words, write a magazine story. Sometimes I'm like, oh my God, i I have nothing else to say. But there was something about writing that article and it was really well received.
00:40:11
Speaker
ah Went viral for to use the common parlance. ah And so I know that people were interested in it. And sometimes when i think about writing a book, I think, okay, there's the story.
00:40:24
Speaker
But then there's the real story. So like the story is, yeah, some a hermit, a guy lived in the woods for 27 years, stole a thousand times. But the real story is like, dude, are we all of us trying to avoid getting to know the only person we can really know ourselves? Why are all afraid? Like I watched, I observed people alone for hours and just pull out your phone and start scrolling. Like we never like to spend time with ourselves. And then i went on like a 10 day silent retreat and found out why it's really,
00:40:51
Speaker
unsettling to go into your own head and face yourself. And so sort of the deeper question, you read the book, you're supposed to have like a fun story, but like tucked into the corners, you're supposed to think about, are you living an examined life? Are you wasting your life? Are you just, you know, I mean, there's some great, like I discovered things like, you know, one of my favorite quotes from ah some hermits is like, the richest person is the one with the most leisure time.
00:41:15
Speaker
ah you know Not working is the great good. like who like you know Americans have to have a pissing contest by how much they work, but it wouldn't be better to have a contest by how much you don't work? ah um And um so I always look for the deeper story. And like you know with the art thief, the question is, like are we not a two? like This world, you could say, is ugly, but actually, really, it is filled with outstanding beauty right out my door, mountains, interactions with people, like put the news aside and actually meet people. like
00:41:46
Speaker
Are we not taking advantage of the beauty that surrounds us? That's the real story. The whole art thief story is just a nice way to, was say tricky, but nice way to be led through something that has depth deeper um tentacles.
Writing for an Audience
00:42:03
Speaker
And with a Stranger in the Woods, when did you, I'm sure it wasn't too hard for you to get a ah book deal with that with that article that came out and just the amazing story of someone once had just been like dying to give someone a book deal for this story.
00:42:15
Speaker
But when did you know it was a thing? When I say thing, I mean like, when did you know this was a worthwhile project? Was was there a moment when you're like, ah, like I can relax. I know this is going to be a book. I mean, there's probably be the one to say, I'm not sure to this day whether it was worthwhile.
00:42:28
Speaker
um I really took, when when when I first made contact with Christopher Knight, the Hermit, we exchanged letters for a while and I was like, and then I i have a good relationship with some magazines at the time, GQ Magazine and my, I'll give a shout out to Jeff Gagnon, my editor there.
00:42:46
Speaker
And ah um who's now moved on to National Geographic. I knew that this was at least going to be a magazine article. And then I really, don't want to say enjoyed writing it, but there was something about in the writing that felt like I had more to say. And like I said, the article itself was well received, but I am, I think I said earlier in this chat that I don't really know what I'm doing. And I also,
00:43:13
Speaker
don't have ah crystal ball and can't be sure that what I find interesting other people do. But it seems like having been a journalist full time for 35 years, it seems like I maybe do have ah things that interest me, at least have a couple other people that are interested in it.
00:43:31
Speaker
um As you well know, Ken, since you're a writer, um you spend a lot of time by yourself and you've got to entertain yourself. But one thing I do think about, and I don't know if the same is for you, would actually like to hear your answers, when I'm writing,
00:43:45
Speaker
I think about the audience all the time. I think about readers. I do not pretend that there's no reader. So I've heard writers say the exact opposite, that they don't think about readers. I think about them all the time. How much tolerance do you have for the history of Renaissance art, ah the history of hermits? you know How much tolerance do you have for this? like As a reader, how much do you have? like you know Is this too dark? Is this too light? Is this too jokey? Is this too serious? you know I think about the reader. Do do you?
00:44:12
Speaker
ah Sure, yeah, I mean, i think part of it is what makes me laugh, and if it gives me a ah genuine laugh, then I have to just hope that it's going to resonate with other people. Sometimes I write as if I'm writing to my my best friend, Josh, because I'm very uncensored and kind of brutally honest with him, um so there's a ah bit of that. But yeah, I think John Lennon once said, like, I want to be liked, I want someone to like my stuff. And there's always that kind of going through my mind too. Like I want, I want my stuff to be enjoyed.
00:44:45
Speaker
um Can I tell you about one of the sections that I most enjoyed in stranger in the woods? And I think this might be my favorite passage in the three books I've read.
00:44:56
Speaker
sure It's the moment where you go to visit night and I know you made many visits, but you talk to him in his driveway or think there's mom's driveway. And, um,
00:45:08
Speaker
he he starts kind of very poetically describing this very dark frame of mind he's in You know what I'm talking about, right? Of course, the lady in woods. lady woods, yeah. Yes, because so there's like a bunch of things happening for me in that moment and that I was wondering what were happening for you because one, it' it's like this deeply poetic moment where Chris is communicating something on like ah and a different level.
00:45:34
Speaker
um but he's also connecting with you. And it seemed like for a real first time on a very profound level, but it also, to me, it seems like this is when the book really works.
00:45:47
Speaker
it's It's almost like you found the emotional heart of your book in that connection. And I wonder if the book would have been as wonderful as it is without that moment. And I'm wondering if if you felt something similar in that interaction.
00:46:03
Speaker
Yeah, so it's an interaction basically that towards the end of the ah Chris Knight, the hermit, ah broke into people's houses, 27 years all alone, ah gets arrested for breaking into a house, gets put in jail, the person who think really...
00:46:17
Speaker
would suffer the most in jail is now locked in a cage and ah finally is released. And we have one final meeting together at his um and his mom's house and we're standing under a lilac tree. And he basically tells me that he's you know now that he's gone through all this, he's miserable and considering killing committing suicide.
00:46:37
Speaker
And he talks to me about this thing he called the Lady of the Woods when he was suffering and cold, it came to him sort of like a female version of ah death ah with his Sith.
00:46:48
Speaker
um But she was it was a female version. i don't know what she was carrying. but And that he sent her away. But now he's thinking of of killing himself, which is like... emotionally overwhelming. It's like the most in inside it's the most like ah open and sharing and deep thing that can happen. And ah in front of another boy under a tree, I had no reaction except to weep. And he did too. like you know And then sitting there in my office and I'm like, this is one of the reasons why I like to be a writer. If I like had to perform that or read that out loud, I would be like mortified, but it's like, you know, a very personal and a kind of raw moment. And of course i I felt like aware of it. I don't know if it would have resonance with the reader, but I put it in there and it's the type of thing where like,
00:47:35
Speaker
I saw you reading that I would put something on my head and run into another room until you were done. Cause it's so personal to me. And I'm like kind of mortified, but I would not take it out for a minute. And so I feel like, you know, maybe that's part of writing itself or you, for all these cliches, like you bear your soul on the page. But in my mind, it's,
00:47:55
Speaker
it's necessary to do that. The most emotionally dramatic thing is the core of your story. And yeah, I don't even know if I answered your question, but sort of parsed that ah a little bit more. And thank you for acknowledging that that meant meant a lot to because it is to me like, you know, it's not like ah again, to repeat what I said earlier, it's not like I plan to drop that in right there. just seemed to fit at that moment and and it's late, late, late in the book. So if you've already read that far, you're probably going to go all the way. But um I always do like to read books that rather than Peter out offer Easter eggs or late gifts in the prose. And that's one of the reasons why i also like The Art Thief. There's a lot of things that happen late in the book that are not much telegraphed early. And you're like, for those readers who stay, ah they should be happily rewarded.
00:48:47
Speaker
And it was a ah ah late little Easter egg and I got to the epilogue and I just wanted it to keep going. i wanted, I wanted to learn more about Christopher Knight and how he was adapting to society. If he ever had a romance, if you could do a second edition, do you know anything about Christopher Knight where you could do like an updated epilogue?
00:49:09
Speaker
Um,
00:49:12
Speaker
I was about to say, yeah, the reason why didn't get all that is because the plane just landed in Charles de Gaulle and you know that's all you had time for. ah um and Yeah, um the interesting thing about writing nonfiction is that the story truly isn't over until somebody dies, basically.
00:49:28
Speaker
um lot of the people that I write about or the incidents I write about, the the endings, I'm not going to say are unsatisfying, but because the main character, like all three of them,
00:49:40
Speaker
chris Chris Longo still alive, Christopher Knight still alive, Stefan Breitwieser still alive. Like you don't know the end, but the story does end and... This
00:49:53
Speaker
which is my first draft to trying to say this. I don't mind... personally as a reader or as a writer, not having everything tied up in a neat little bow. In fact, I find i find neat little bows to be disappointing.
00:50:07
Speaker
And when you say to me, I kind of wish to to know the rest, I'm like, good. um ah No, I'm never going to add another word to it, not an epilogue, nothing, unless...
00:50:19
Speaker
Christopher Knight, the hermit, contacts me. he We had a deal ah that he would I would bug him and bug him and bug him tell me a story. And then at the end, he was like, go away, Mike. and I don't blame him. i can be ah I can be an aggressive journalist. ah And i the way we left it was, ah Chris, um would you send me a letter if you ever want to get in touch? And he said, yeah, I will.
00:50:41
Speaker
That was seven years ago. i have received no letter. I sent him, of course, the copy of the book. Usually if someone hates something, they'll let you know. No response, nothing. He is a true hermit. Like if he suddenly was all chatty and stuff, it would I think it would sort of subvert the book. So while I do keep tabs, two degrees separation of like what's going on with Chris and I, like, you know, like talking to the police officer every once in a while, I really don't know what's going on.
00:51:06
Speaker
i am I'm curious. I'm a journalist. I would love to hear from Chris if you're listening to this. feel free to send me a note, but I don't ever anticipate having any interaction with him again as long as either of us are alive. And I feel ah both um ah feel satisfactorily unsatisfied by that, if you sort of know what I mean. like ah There's just a little bit of an ellipsis at the end and you're just going to have to
00:51:37
Speaker
You're live with not knowing everything and that's part of the nature of nonfiction. And sorry to make you feel that way, but there's going to be no bows put on this present. Christopher Knight, if you're listening, come on the Out of the Wild podcast. You can come on after.
00:51:50
Speaker
so far, so good. Great questions. Good preparation. So, Chris, ah yeah my endorsement. um how yeah You mentioned Chris, you don't know how he how he thought of his, how he was depicted in your book. How do you think your other subjects think about their depictions and true story and the art thief? Do you know, or do you have a a sense?
00:52:14
Speaker
So I told you, I think about the reader. I do not write any of my books, but there's only three of them really, to please the subject. I'm not thinking, i'm I'm worried about how Chris Longo, the murderer, thinks about it. or so ah But that, of course, I'm human and I do um wonder, but and I have like hints. So I mentioned that I wrote magazine articles before. First of all, Chris Longo, the murderer,
00:52:39
Speaker
I did actually write a a ah whole extra chapter after the hardcover came out, including his reaction to the book and what he hated about it and what he liked about it and how our relationship was changed. And so there's a whole new ending chapter that I actually really like.
00:52:52
Speaker
Like ah ah if you read the softcover version of True Story, it has like another chapter that even gets crazier and it's sort of added to it. Chris Knight read my magazine article, which had the same tone as the book, and we did speak about it. and he said it was basically fair, which is totally fair.
00:53:09
Speaker
i mean- Okay, good. yeah And the same with Stefan Breitwieser. I wrote a GQ magazine article about him, and he said it was juste, also fair, the French word for fair. And so and I am in occasional friendly contact with Stefan Breitvieser, the art thief. Therefore, he couldn't have... I even sent him the... He had trouble reading the English version of a book. He doesn't speak ah very good English. We did all the um interviews in French.
00:53:35
Speaker
um And I sent him the French edition and we're still in in contact. He never wrote me like, Mike, here's exact here's my review of your book. And I don't want to ask him, frankly, because it is uncomfortable to be...
00:53:48
Speaker
written about by someone else because how other people see you is never exactly how you see yourself. And a biography will never be the same as an autobiography. And so I am sure that all the people I've written about have many, and you know how sometimes you can have like a hundred great lines and one that stings and that's all they're gonna talk
Understanding 'The Art Thief'
00:54:07
Speaker
about.
00:54:07
Speaker
I reviewed a person's book once and said like, great, great, great, great. great great great This chapter is a little repetitive. Great, great, great. And 15 years later, the guy came up to me at a cocktail party he said, little repetitive, huh?
00:54:20
Speaker
You know, I was like, wow. I gave your book like a 98 out of 100, but you remember this. ah ah So I'm assuming that if you brought Chris Knight on, Chris Longo on, and Stefan Breitfizer on and said, what'd you think about the book? They're be that one fucking line that I hated.
00:54:33
Speaker
oh And I know there's gotta be a couple that just rubbed them wrong where I, my read of them is not their read of themselves.
00:54:43
Speaker
So The Art Thief, um this is about a book. ah We've already mentioned his name. I can't pronounce it that well. You can just do Brightweiser like Budweiser. It's fine. That's the anglicized word, Brightweiser.
00:54:56
Speaker
So he's a French man who sometimes with the help of his girlfriend stole hundreds of pieces of artwork. One of the greatest art thieves in and history.
00:55:06
Speaker
I sent you this question over email. if If you were a kleptomaniac, you know a compulsive thief, what kind of kleptomaniac would you be? Yeah, I did see that question and thought about it and then kind of like batted it aside. i was like, I might as well just answer this spontaneously. But ah since I already have thought about it, sort of eliminate spontaneity.
00:55:28
Speaker
And I wanted to come up with some great pithy answer, but I, you know, it's okay the first thing that came to mind was, um I mean, I told you how much I love books and that I would just steal books. but But then I was like, they're not that expensive and I really feel bad for bookstores.
00:55:42
Speaker
So um I'm going to say, it's it's kind I'm not happy with this answer, but it also feels right. What would I steal? I'm right in Bright Visor's team. I would steal beautiful works of art, not Renaissance. I would go more modern.
00:55:58
Speaker
um feel like Banksy would be sort of like in on the joke since he tried to destroy one of his own things if I like stole one of his things and did something funny with it and like put it up somewhere so like the public could see. Wouldn't you steal like a concrete wall or something to get his work? People do. People do. People chip things off. Yeah. In fact, I live here Park City, Utah.
00:56:24
Speaker
ah Exit through the gift shop ah with Banksy's. documentary film or I'm not sure if it was fiction, so but Banksy's film opened here. And the next morning there were five original Banksy's on the streets of Park City, two that got quickly erased by the city thinking it's um ah graffiti.
00:56:44
Speaker
One that got literally chipped off a stone wall. Another one was on a metal door that got removed and a couple of them are One of them or two of them are preserved in situ here in ah Park City. But yeah, I think I would steal, i ah kind of like, um you know, Picasso and ah and and newer, ah there's a couple of ah paintings that are in my mind's eye that I would like to, ah I'm too afraid to get caught. So I'm not really, I'm not really capable of, I'm not, don't do the crime. If you you know can can't do the time, I can't do the time.
00:57:14
Speaker
ah So I'm not doing the crime, but I would take, I would like to have ah some amazing works of art hanging in my house for, I'll return o man. Give me just a week. ah I really, i think that's one of the reasons why I really, and sure if I can use the word enjoyed, but was involved in writing art The Art Thief for more than a decade because i
00:57:35
Speaker
dislike Stefan Breitfizer. i I condemn his actions and I'm a little bit jealous of him at the same time. So one of your flaws, one of your vices, it's not it's not stealing. It doesn't sound like you have a desire to steal anything like that.
00:57:53
Speaker
I'm afraid to get caught. So let me just, you know, so like, you know, you know, say, put that as you will, like, maybe I'd be willing to steal, but I'm not willing to get caught. But isn't that the reason why laws work? Like, i you know, I'd like to go 200 miles an hour in a Lamborghini, but I'm ah afraid to get in a crash or get a ticket. So like, yeah, laws do keep me in line.
00:58:11
Speaker
ah But I would, you know, I would like to experience the rush that criminals have described to me, but I'm, and I'm not going to kill somebody if it was legal. I still wouldn't kill anybody, but maybe i would like, you know, when I was walking through museums with Stefan Breitwieser, I was wondering if he would steal something in front of me.
00:58:29
Speaker
And in my mind, I was like, i going have to call the police on my own subject, but I don't know what I would have done. I might have waited a day. i don't know what I would have luckily did not have to.
00:58:40
Speaker
um Answer that, didn't have to cross that bridge because he did not, so far as I know, steal anything in front of me except for a pamphlet which he stole from the gift shop and gave to me and I did not return. I have a piece of stolen merchandise to this day. think it cost four euros or something like that. You wrote about that in your book. Yes, I'm sorry at the Rubenhouse Museum.
00:59:02
Speaker
am accomplice to a you know four euro and 50 centime crime. And you don't really come into that book until the epilogue, whereas you're kind of a character in your other two. Was that was that deliberate, you kind of keeping yourself out of that book?
00:59:17
Speaker
I mean, yeah. I mean, everything's deliberate, but not... not ah All up for debate. like ah For the fifth time, you know this show, i I truly am not sure of anything.
00:59:31
Speaker
ah So yes, I felt strongly that i should be that it should be written in the third person. No I because most of it takes place way before I met him. Unlike, ah say, the murderer who took on my identity, there was really no choice but to write it in the first person.
00:59:44
Speaker
I think the Hermit book could have gone either way, but I felt like because Chris Knight, the Hermit, is such an outlier that the reader needed someone between this guy and them to sort of act as buffer, interpreter, explainer.
01:00:00
Speaker
blaer um Stefan Breitwieser wasn't so out there that I feel like there didn't need to be that buffer. Sometimes I'm not that interesting man. You don't need to know anything more about me.
01:00:12
Speaker
So I felt very strongly that it should be in the third person. It's also written in the present tense.
01:00:19
Speaker
I mean, I feel that it should be in the present tense, obviously, but I tried chapters in the past tense. I tried chapters in the first person and there were advantages and disadvantages. Like writing is not a math proof.
01:00:31
Speaker
There's no absolutely correct, absolutely incorrect. And so I just had to go in the end with my gut. And also i will admit to you and everyone listening, I have professional editors that
Role of Editors and Hypothetical Scenarios
01:00:45
Speaker
help me.
01:00:45
Speaker
Like I'm not writing in a vacuum. I will write a couple of chapters, ask my editor, And in this book, it was was a male, and he said, ah you know, oftentimes they're like, no, this is going down the wrong direction. I have help.
01:00:57
Speaker
Like, I mean, every word you read is my own, but it has been buffed and helped and edited by professional editors. And like, ah so I would love to take full credit, but the truth is I can only take partial credit for ah for my work. I do have people, I like being edited. it It makes me a better writer.
01:01:17
Speaker
And you're a real pro. I mean, i think at what some point you you said you had someone helping you with research and editing. Like me with my three books, i was just kind of on my own for those three books. I get it. I get it. So Mike, let's say let's say you did go on ah compulsive crime spree. And let's say you go to jail.
01:01:36
Speaker
And let's say for some reason you don't have the cognitive capacity anymore to write your book. And let's say that you get a letter in and your prison mail saying... I'd love to intimately get to know you and collaborate on a writing project. What do you say to that author? I say, Ken, stop taking my advice. no ah I mean, that's a lot of ifs and buts. But listen, if yeah I mean, I'm just going with I'm locked in jail. I got some time to kill. let's ah ah My heart always ah goes out to fellow journalists. I hate ah turning down requests from fellow journalists, which I have to do occasionally, mostly to like blur books and things like that. So um if a journalist gets in touch with me,
01:02:16
Speaker
if you know, by your scenario, I'm not capable of writing my own thing. I was going to say, ah the only thing that sounds enticing about jail and I, you know, be careful what you wish for. You might just get it. But so I'm whatever sarcastic yeah swirls should be in my vocal patterns here. Uh, but the only thing that sounds great about jail is, ah does that sound sarcastic enough? The only thing that sounds wonderful about jail is the time to like, know,
01:02:44
Speaker
by my sit by myself and write i bet you i could write something you know i've always wanted to write a novel but have been too scared maybe that would be a great time to try it at this very moment uh i am reading a quite long book i'm going to leave the title to the side now uh that a 700 page book that the person i'm interested in talking to wrote in jail and uh it's fascinating I've had jail fantasies, Mike. Not not those fantasies, um but like, there's, you know, I've got a small child, I've got, my house has been in a state of renovation for six months. There's been times when like, one of those like non-rapey, low security prisons, I could do some time there and actually feel like revived, um or at least that's my my misconception about it.
01:03:32
Speaker
um might my but So one of my last questions is, ah can you tease anything you're working on?
Current Projects and Book Recommendations
01:03:43
Speaker
I mean, i would... No. Well, are you working on something? I mean, I'm always... I'm working a couple of magazine articles. I'm really so... ah Listeners out there, if anybody has any great ideas... My name is Mike Finkel.
01:03:57
Speaker
My email is mikefinkel at me.com. I'm not sorry shy about it. Send me your ideas. I have a... I have an idea for an idea, but again, I'm sort of waiting to see if I can get, if I can speak to the person my um my problem, but my parameters are a little bit tight. I'm really jealous of beautiful writers like David Gran, The Wager, a great book, who can write historical fact and make it come alive. I feel like i need I can only write about the current day. I need to talk to the person, him or herself. I can't report around people.
01:04:31
Speaker
And so i have to but I can't just decide on a topic. I feel like the person has to be willing to work with me or else I'm not going to do it. So I have a couple of irons in the fire, but none of them have come to fruition. I got my fingers crossed that in the next little bit, I will be working on another book. I would love to be working on another book.
01:04:52
Speaker
Maybe. like working on books. You like that. I mean, I like skiing and riding my mountain bike. Let's be honest. But, uh, I, uh, have three children, as I mentioned, and, uh, I have, uh,
01:05:03
Speaker
The bills aren't paying themselves, so I'm highly motivated. This is my job. So it's both ah pleasure, passion, and ah income. Well, my fingers are crossed for you, Mike, i because I'd love to read more of your your books.
01:05:18
Speaker
ah So typically, I end this show by just asking for any sort of recommendation, anything you're reading, watching whatever. So I did see that and I did do my homework a little bit. I got three things. I got none please fiction, nonfiction, and poetry. So I like to read short, pithy, powerful books.
01:05:40
Speaker
Nonfiction. So ah they're all a little bit like, I wonder if the average – like these are in the last – X years ah really blew me away. For non-fiction, for true story, I like The Adversary by Emmanuel Carrere. The Adversary. He's a French journalist that is underappreciated.
01:05:59
Speaker
I love his style. It is a little dark, l'adversaire, but The Adversary in English doesn't, he writes such a smooth style. English translation works fine. I read it in both French and English, really no difference.
01:06:11
Speaker
The Adversary by Emmanuel Carrere. Fiction. Short. Blew my mind. We the Animals by Justin Torres. T-O-R-R-E-S.
01:06:26
Speaker
We the Animals. Wow. From the first line. Boom. Short stories. That's short stories. No, it's a novel 100...
01:06:38
Speaker
a hundred Novella, 128 pages in my edition. Beautiful. We the animals. And then poetry, I mean, right from the title, What Narcissism Means to Me by Tony Hoagland, H-O-A-G-L-A-N-D. What Narcissism Means to Me. How could you not enjoy that? like Read that book after that title. What Narcissism Means to Me, We the Animals, and The Adversary. ah Those three books are my...
01:07:07
Speaker
recommendations. And if you haven't read them, I'm jealous. I love Tony Holes. He's maybe the only poet i I really love. So maybe he'll be a future guest along with Christopher Knight. So um Mike Finkel, it's been an absolute honor and joy to speak you speak with you for this last honor it last hour. So thank you so much.
01:07:29
Speaker
That's been fun. Thank you. Thanks, Mike.
01:07:48
Speaker
This is the Out of the Wild podcast with Ken Ilgunis. Original music by Duncan Barrett.