Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome to OTB, the podcast that's done with four threes for bit, if that's okay. Let's be honest, most fun podcasts are after a disaster of a week, so this should be an absolute riot. We've well and truly opened the floodgates, but forgotten to check whether our house might have been on the floodplain.
Speaker: Nine goals conceded in the last four days as we record. Five in a pummeling against Manchester City's kindergarten and then four in an absolutely honking, seems like there might be a few issues that need fixing type performance against Bolton yesterday. Two completely different line-ups, one very similar result. What's the biggest problem? The huge gaps in our midfield. don't know about you, but when things are going wrong for me, I love being able to ruminate on them for
Speaker: three whole weeks It's definitely a big international break for Big Phil. We'll have a peek over to the other side and say what we'd like to see. You've posed a few questions to us as if we know how the hell to fix anything. And we'll be taking a look back at two players who wouldn't have stood for this sort of thing back in their day, whenever that was, in our Canary countdown. have a feeling one of them could be the perfect palate cleanser for this sourest of weeks. Having the same tedious people involved all the time, but keeping the levels up year after year isn't easy. Just ask this week's panel. Firstly, her dream is to see Norwich City win the league without keeping a clean sheet. And I'm pleased to report that half of that dream is alive and well. It's Zoe Morgan. Zoe, how are you?
Speaker: Hello, Steve. Well, I would say that whole dream is alive and well, technically. if Yeah, it's alive. So it's alive. Yeah, maybe not. Maybe it's got a sniffle due to the change of seasons. Yes.
Speaker: Yes. We'll leave at that. Yeah, I'd say might be bed bound. I'm there at the life support. Yeah. you called a priest? can whisper The last rights on our title challenge after just eight games. But, you know, we like we could laugh back at that in May, maybe. and Secondly, it's a man who struggles to think of Norwich City midfielders at the best of times. Just think of how difficult it is for him at the moment. We don't actually appear to have a midfield at all. It's Dan Brigham. Dan, good evening. Hello, Steve. Hello, everyone.
Speaker: and Yes, it's it's ah made life a lot easier in having only two midfielders playing every single game this season. Yes, but spot them if if you can. They're usually a long way from each other or too close to each other, depending on any given moment.
Speaker: Yes, I definitely said at least once yesterday, where are the midfields? That's where they should be. But we'll get into that. um In the meantime, don't go sleeping on our additional offers, everyone. We've been typing away like the cat with the stiff arms in that gif over the last week. Ryan's been defending Vlad. That went well. um I've been thoroughly depressing everyone with tales of last-minute defeats. Zoe paid tribute to a daytime TV presenter who bangs on a percussion instrument. And Dan's written a ruddy good piece on Ruddy. So we're all involved. Just search OTB Norwich on our sub stack. And please do the same search on Patreon if you're interested in the bonus audio stuff that we do. We'll be going deep on our numbers 21 and 20 tonight if you want to pay a little a bit extra to listen to that. And once again, thank you, thank you, thank you to everyone who has supported us so far. But those are just our cheeky extras. Now it's time for Zoe's news headlines. And just like the real news often does, we're starting with something utterly catastrophic.
Speaker: Um, what the f- Norwich City's so shocked that Christopher Samba is old enough to have a son playing professional football, they fail to notice the ball flying into the net.
Speaker: Players trying new strategy of having their arm hanging off realise with sadness it doesn't stop the ball flying into the net.
Speaker: At least Ipswich lost, but that could do with being funnier at this stage.
Speaker: Seriously, though, what the
Speaker: I mean, valid, valid questions. And nice for Bolton Winger Dong to get some shout outs in Dan, Sunday was proof that some seven goal thrillers can be terrible. And after a couple of up and down weeks, I'm going to call this one a down and down week. Where does Norwich City 3, Bolton Wanderers 4 rank on the shit-o-meter for you? Oh, it's big steaming dinosaur Jurassic Park levels of shit. I think Jeff Goldblum turning up and telling everyone that is one big steaming bit of shit right there. You could have done with them in the back four.
Speaker: um It was, reminded me of two games getting smashed by Wrexham last season, was it? Yep. Under Manning and getting smashed by Portsmouth the season before under Thorup.
Speaker: um ah I mean, what the fuck indeed? Sorry, you you do need now to put another bleep in there. ah um ah yeah what One saving grace, I suppose, compared to those two performances is that we've got more evidence from Clement that that isn't necessarily um the Norwich City we should expect under him. um But it was further evidence from this season that we are lacking control um in moat it's ah across large periods of matches, even in games we've won, Sheffield United and Birmingham City. In particular, we had to withstand some pretty um long stretches of dominance from those two sides. Although...
Speaker: At the time, the fact we got through that um and won both those games, you know, was felt like and we'd turned a corner after the Millwall defeat and that we, you know, worked really, really hard. and Looked like we could create lots of chances and weathered those storms. Um, whereas, but now that sort of lack of control is, um becoming a real issue. I think I had a little look earlier, um, cause I obviously like to do my research and we've in our league games this season, we've been in winning positions in within matches seven times and but held onto those winning positions three times.
Speaker: And we've been in losing positions seven times and we've only leveled twice from those losing positions. Both of those were to make it three all and both of those we would go on to lose those matches. So every time we've been in a losing position this season, we have lost the game. um And I think that speaks to a team that is lacking any sort of kind of control or long enough periods of control um to really sort of... um to really but ah you know sort of show what we did last season in terms of um making the pitch nice and compact and um being good off the ball working really hard off the ball and being sort of incisive with the ball as well we we we have kept one of those traits which is being incisive on the ball we haven't lost that at all but um we certainly have lost that compactness and um good decision making off the ball and I think probably most worryingly is we've a few of them maybe aren't working hard enough um to help out their their teammates as well.
Speaker: That is a worry. and I tweeted it yesterday, but the the the two earliest equalizers that we've conceded in the last 20 years have have come in consecutive weekends. So that's fun. I really enjoyed the fact that it's the first time in our history that we have scored three goals in consecutive league matches and not got a point from them. And it was it was really great to be at both of those games.
Speaker: A lot to celebrate, at least. To see history being made. Yeah, history in the making. That's what you're listening to on this podcast, history. Zoe, um I'm hoping that you've got swearing out of your system, but feel free to go for it. that There is a part of my brain that's saying, you know, we're eight games in, we're four points off the playoffs and we're scoring goals, so let's not go too overboard. But but obviously, the A, it's it's much more fun to go overboard. And B, then I remember how we played yesterday and how it underlines some pre-existing concerns. I mean, Dan's said a lot of it already, but...
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to say the i suppose I just have further nice just making more work for yourself there, Steve. um It was just staggeringly bad, wasn't it? I i i am someone that will, you know, reserve...
Speaker: that kind of feeling until I really have to say that it was not good. You know, I will try and find the the positives and until I can't anymore. um And it was just staggeringly bad. And,
Speaker: I think I agree with, with Dan about um like the work, the work rate, but also working hard enough for each other. I think that the sort of team spirit that they built up during last season, when things were going really well, seems to have sort of vanished a little bit. um And yeah,
Speaker: ah Big Phil mentioned it um after the Middlesbrough game, said that his you know he was most disappointed in the first half about the fact that the players weren't working for each other. um and it And I felt like that played out again. i i I don't know. I'm sort of torn with, you know, players shouting at each other because sometimes you think that means that they care at least. ah But it does seem like they sort of very quickly all turn on each other when something goes wrong or when we concede another goal. um
Speaker: There was sort of a weird point yesterday during, um, the first half when Vlad and Cordoba were shouting at each other and it was right near the Bolton fans. And it just felt a bit embarrassing that they were sort giving them some, like they were giving them a bit of ammunition there. Um, they just all look so disappointed in each other when something doesn't go very well. And that can be a bit sort of disheartening. Um,
Speaker: And yeah, I think that's that's the worrying bit. um Also, the conceding goals is slightly worrying. um I obviously did go on record saying that I think clean sheets are for losers. um That's come back to bite me slightly. Although if we had won the last gate for two games four three ourselves maybe we'd be saying isn't it good um and but you've got to still be hopeful i guess like you say it's very early stages no one is completely dominating the league yet um there's a lot of teams with some way to go for some consistency so that's good um and i saw a tweet uh
Speaker: last weekend that sort of helped me sort of balance my views. So it was Duncan Alexander on, on Twitter. He was talking about how Chelsea are on track to concede 91 goals this season. which is presumably somewhere around what we're on track to do at the moment. ah But he said the only team to finish in the top five after letting in over 91 goals um are Man City in 1957 to 58. Shout out to anyone around for that season. um With a record of goals scored 104 goals against Man City.
Speaker: goals against So that's top five in the top flight, and scoring 100, conceding If we're not going to win the league, maybe that's something we could aim for as a bit of fun. It's a big if. before win the leaf were not Obviously, we got into Europe on a minus goal difference by finishing third in the Premier League as well. So anything's possible. Yeah. And i mean we're on um or only on minus one at the moment.
Speaker: i I'm just having a look at it. I think we're we're probably on course to concede about 96. So that's less than 100, right? Yeah. so We've not played West Ham or Wolves yet.
Speaker: I would have sorted things out by then.
Speaker: Good God. I um i mean, i don't know, Dan, like how there are a lot of... What the Right, that's timing, Dan.
Speaker: what What do we fix? but what like How do we fix this? there are There are a lot of things wrong, as we know, but the most frustrating thing in all of this is we know we have seen this manager and a lot of these players play good, sensible, balanced, committed football that wins football matches. So how do we get back to that? Or do we need to change and do something completely different here?
Speaker: i so I mean, I said this after the borough defeat, but I still don't think that, you know, there's no major surgery needed. There's just probably tweaks here and there. Obviously, it's hard to when there's more than one thing going on at the same time, it's hard to or but more things going wrong at the same time. It's hard to kind of put a finger on it. But.
Speaker: ah ever I don't know if you've heard, but we are too open at the moment. um There are lots of gaps. And I was trying to think, um like, what's causing ah those gaps? And, you know, and so yeah it's hard to speak with any confidence about this as someone who is not a football manager. But... The three key areas for me causing those issues are wide players, and particularly on the left, ah why are taking up wider positions than last season. um
Speaker: That immediately creates bigger space from the two central midfielders. Add to that that I don't think Musaba in particular works hard enough at all defensively, and Clement referenced that. um And he let ah kept letting players run off the back of him ah on Sunday, which was infuriating. um Add to that, the number 10, as discussed previously, does look like they're trying to sort of play closer to the number nine, whereas which felt like an issue under Manning last season. And Clement came in and sorted that by playing the number 10 closer to the central midfielders.
Speaker: I think maybe do that again. um And I think the big one is, that's maybe under discussed is that last season, Kellen Fisher was excellent and particularly good at stepping into midfield and creating it you know a more compact central area there alongside the midfielders. And when you put all those string three things together,
Speaker: um It creates lots of gaps and it makes good players look like they're struggling, i.e. we've heard a lot about Kenny's legs going, Mattson not being up to it, Cordoba and um ah McConville not hitting the heights of last season.
Speaker: And it's hard to like say with any confidence they have their performances levels have dropped off because I think it's probably more likely to be a system issue where our two central midfielders and our two centre-backs are having to cover much, much more ground than they need to be covering or should be covering. And that does then lead to silly errors um and that leads to a sort of a loss of confidence, which leads to more silly errors. But i do think...
Speaker: As we've seen last season, Philippe Clement has it in him to create a really compact team that both creates lots of chances, but is also very, very good out of position. As we saw from probably Christmas, New Year last season, we were just very hard to break down. And, you know, there was points on Saturday where i was thinking I'd rather have Liam Gibbs on the left than Musaba at the moment because... whereas Whereas Liam Gibbs didn't have much output, he worked incredibly hard to get back into the shape. And, you know, it's early days for Musaba and he's maybe not up to how we press and the system that Clement wants to implement just yet. But equally, you're taught at like four years old, you're track you track your runners and he is not doing that. um
Speaker: But on a positive note, I do think those are quite small system tweaks rather than any wholesale changes. I guess in fact it's not easy to put a speedboat in reverse, is it? Do they even have a reverse gear? Well, he's obviously got a driver because he's proved it going forward, but he only wants to go in one way. yeah He does not want to turn around and head backwards. How do you turn around a speedboat? Do you just do to make it do a 180 or can you get it to reverse? you know I think maybe flip.
Speaker: Just flip it over. ah three yeah ah flip Yeah, that wasn't entirely what I meant, just upside down. yeah You know, like an Andre Brooks goal celebration, you can just flip over and then it's face the other way. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Literally flip it over. Okay, well, um anybody living in like the French Riviera or something, let us know. It was quite Darren Huckabee in the way that he looks quite devastating going forward at times, but ah leaves his left back out to dry. Well, we did win the league with well there you go yeah doing that. So all the signs tonight are pointing to us of winning this damn thing. Only only you could say it was quite Darren Huckabee and make it sound like a diss. I mean, kind to agree, though, just ah the wingers for me, obviously Brooks has been brilliant. But and I know I know that.
Speaker: It's one of those things where when a player's missing their value, it suddenly becomes tenfold when you're not winning. But Ali Ahmed, I think, would have given us such a good balance on that left-hand side with a more offensive, more aggressive Brooks on the right. And I think, yeah, look you know we had Schwartow, Springett, Gibbs, none of whom were alike particularly incisive or or quick.
Speaker: but would work hard to make sure that we weren't kind of being beaten down their side. So we just had a much better balance. And I think because the strategy is so kind of high risk, because it is, I think when players' levels drop, it becomes a lot more noticeable. Just looking at... um at the, you know, I kind of mentioned this last week, but the, the, the pressing stats, uh, the depressing pressing stats, we are, we press higher than any other team in terms of where we try and win the ball from. we are leaving massive gaps behind, but in terms of the number of, uh, high turnovers we've had, and I think the way that's counted 40 meters from our goal. Where do we win? You how many times we won the ball? We are 10th. So we're pressing high, but we're not winning the ball. And that as a combination. doesn't seem like a brilliant place. Obviously, Brett and I risk and reward and it feels like, yes, maybe we are giving up a lot of risk at the moment. But again, I guess that comes from, we've spoken about it last week, I think, rotation, which I think is good to get and needed to get players up to speed and more robust, but equally...
Speaker: Not having a settled front four means they're just not going to press us well as a settled front four because they don't, they might know what the triggers are supposed to be, but they still need like a bit of like that intuitive understanding that only comes from playing together. So I do think after the break, assuming any players are fit after the international break, and it would be nicer to see, you know, a more settled starting eleven Well, maybe we'll get loads of injuries like you were hoping for last week and then we'll get those that settled starting 11. We'll come on to the injuries shortly. Zoe, I mean, all all of that um you know tactical wankery, again, more editing for me to do, is all well and good, but
Speaker: let's Let's just look at the fourth goal for a moment. I don't know if you can put that down to tactics. There was about five things wrong with it. and ah you know That's just taking that one goal in isolation.
Speaker: um So i don't know how much you can blame Big Phil for that one. Yeah, I mean, i I do think he's being let down a bit by certain performances and and certain things that are happening. um I think that it's...
Speaker: I think it's like that it was happening throughout the game, these weird things where people were just making really horrendous mistakes, like just passing the ball straight to the opposition or just passing it out of play or I don't know. And and this has been happening, you know, it happened in the Middlesbrough game. Vlad tripped over the football. Like who does that? Like what what is happening to them all? Yeah.
Speaker: Cordoba looks so far away from the player that he has been. McConville looks completely gone in terms of confidence.
Speaker: um And it was very interesting. i don't know. at The Middlesbrough game, McConville was was dreadful until we were sort of putting on that fight back to come back into it. And suddenly he was a player transformed. um And part of me, you know, that you think, well,
Speaker: would could they only play like they did last year because they had to and they were fighting for so like, and the odds were against them and they were fighting. Like, is that mentality,
Speaker: what's not there at the like at the moment and the fact that, and and people have referenced this, even from the first game that we lost saying, do you know is there complacency there? do do did you do Do they think that it's just gonna be easy? um And you do wonder whether that there really is that feeling.
Speaker: um You know, we've had up until now, obviously we'll get onto it, but relatively few injuries, loads of players to choose from. They're getting rotated, they're getting rested, they're you know the strikers are scoring, all of those things are happening.
Speaker: it as it sort of suddenly got easy and they don't know how to channel that kind of focus. um because there, there's certain things happening that are not a coaching thing.
Speaker: ah it doesn't feel like they're a a strange psychological thing that these, these mistakes are happening again, like going back to like the frustration with each other, with themselves, their heads dropping all of that happening.
Speaker: um Yeah. I, I, and then you see, you see things like that fourth goal, the fourth goal that, uh, Middlesbrough scored as well. Like, you know, you watch the still of that going in and guys on his, completely on his own in the six yard box. Like it's, um, yeah, it's weird. It's really weird and, and, and difficult to get your head round.
Speaker: I think it's just not what we expected. ah There's a feel for me of like um our really miserable patch under David Wagner, which included that 6-2 defeat to Plymouth, the same manager, obviously, as we saw yesterday, um where our centre-backs made lots and lots of individual mistakes. And obviously our midfield was deliberately wide open under Wagner because, you know, that was his system.
Speaker: um And I think having a sort of massive gaps leads to those situations silly sort of mistakes um i thought but we should say i think that i thought dolby was outstanding yeah he was brilliant um for bolton wanderers but equally like a couple of weeks ago you know we had fleming up top for burnley and cordoba and mcconville absolutely dominated him and they're he's down the premier league yeah And this is the first time I've seen Dolby, but they felt like sort of very similar profiles as ah as a number nine. And they've gone from dominating, you know, someone as you say, is now in the Premier League um to being dominated by someone who was in League One last season.
Speaker: ah like the gu man The first goal for Bolton just summed up everything that's gone wrong into it. So there's too many gaps in midfield. Yeah. Kenny can't quite, he does get the ball, but there's not and ah no one around him to pick up that second ball when he gets a toe on it. Then they play out to our right back area. Our right back, whoever it's been this season, just does not get tight enough.
Speaker: In fact, as soon as he wasn't tight enough, I like, well, they're scoring here. And then he slots it too easily to Vlad's right-hand side. i mean, I did i was a big fan of Vlad last season, and I'd like to believe the fact that he was very good last season means... his formal return, but he was poor for that first goal.
Speaker: um Didn't really have a chance for the second goal. Third goal, he is in a very weird position. Sort of he is way off his line, makes it very easy for the ball to be slotted past. And then to not even react for the fourth goal when it's very, very clear. and He's about to hit it with his left foot into that you know corner and he doesn't react or dive.
Speaker: Very sort of jo George Longitis, that is. um And I'm not sure you can put, or I can put his drop-off in form down to what's happening in front of him, I don't think, um in the way that I think you can when centre-backs are being pulled out of position and and having to cover too much ground. I'm not quite sure you can have ah as much leeway for Vlad, unfortunately. I'd put a bit of a warning, like alert signal as well on the fact that it feels like
Speaker: people have attempted to lob him from distance quite a lot already this season. I've got absolutely no numbers around that, or just a vibe. But it feels like people are doing that quite a lot. Why is he bad positions? Did they listen to the podcast at the beginning last season when you said you thought he was going to concede one from his own heart?
Speaker: I'm quite concerned. um i mean, love the man. But, yeah, he is... It's like he, um I don't know. i've never seen a footballer so much that gives the vibe that he gets nervous i in quite an endearing way in many ways. ah But I think sometimes it sort of, it counts. I think sometimes it really,
Speaker: ah you know, he uses it to his favour and sometimes it really counts against him. And I don't think there's any guarantee. I don't think we ever know which which mood he's going to be in on any given day. But of of course, does the celebration at the end where points to his temple in a kind of I'm a mentality monster type way when I think... Not sure, mate. Not sure it's there yet. Yeah, I mean, a few things to pick up on this. So so Vlad, ah but so so our goalkeepers, and obviously Vlad has not played every single game, but um the vast majority of them. Last season, we conceded 65 goals from 196 shots So that's 33% to basically one in three. This season, we've let in 24 from 49, so effectively 50% one and two. you know Small sample size, but that is quite a considerable. well That's going back to the previous season's rate pretty much, isn't it? yeah um Yeah, I mean, I'd be surprised if we've been as bad as one in two, even under even in the Angus Gunn, George Long season under Torre. But I can take a look. at the The first goal, yeah, yeah Kenny loses a 50-50 and they're in. And like you say, Stacey doesn't defend it. But that's three minutes after we've scored.
Speaker: the naivety is just that to me, it was just off the chart. You you cannot play like that. Even at home to a team that's come up through the playoffs and not one away from home this season, you just cannot play like that in the championship. You have to defend better. And last season under Clement, if Kenny or anyone loses a ball in central midfield, there was usually either um a right back who'd inverted or a winger like Ahmed who'd come inside as well that allowed Mattson to get a bit tighter to to Kenny. And now that's not happening. like
Speaker: ah But, you know, I do think it is a pretty easy fix that yeah yes and and to be a bit positive. and Yes, I do. And we're scoring loads of bloody goals. And Torres, let's talk about Torres. Yeah, yeah we we should actually, Zoe, we should. Because, I mean, do we need to be putting a bit more respect on Mo Torres now? I still feel like we're talking about him as though, yeah, I mean, he does score a few goals, but is he actually any good? But good God, that i mean, that's probably the best goal he's scored so far, right?
Speaker: It was so good. um And just the pace of which he ran onto the ball, um you know, that is a skill in it. You know, he wasn't sort of able to just sidle up to it and and kick it in his own time. He had to time that properly in running incredibly fast and then absolutely thundering it into the back of the goal. Like it was the type of shot that just makes you whoa. It was so good. um He really does love scoring goals. um
Speaker: You know, it's such a talent. um So, yeah, that was so exciting to see. You know, he continues to do that. I did think he did look so deflated when we immediately conceded. It's like, how many of these do you need me to score? Keep scoring in the first five minutes and then you balls it up at the other end, you bunch of amateurs. Yeah. Maybe they left it till like the last five minutes. Yes. I was going too early. Yes. Too soon. That's the thing.
Speaker: So, yeah, it was it was a really wonderful goal. And it was a shame that everything just fell apart after that because, um yeah, he probably does deserves a bit more than what he's getting from everybody else. Yeah. And then obviously.
Speaker: He did fall apart. He yeah literally fell apart. His shoulders fell apart after that. Yeah, very much like a trademark Touré goal, that one I think that's become. um Last question on this bit, Dan.
Speaker: Five defeats in eight, 17th the league, joint most goals conceded. Paul Clinchy! Clinch has asked... are we experiencing the often cited Clément second season syndrome? and then That may be too early to ask that question, but I guess we're after this game, and this is probably the first time real questions are starting to be asked of, of Big Phil.
Speaker: Yeah. I don't know. Like we, a lot of said about these, the second season syndrome, but that none of them have been like disastrous. Have they? unless No, no, they haven't. they There's been a drop from his initial and input, but, but yeah, not disastrous.
Speaker: Um, Yes, first test in terms of but losing back-to-back games, obviously, a couple of times already this season. um First test of maybe obviously the mood around the place not being wholly positive as it has been for the the entirety his time here so far. So he's got new tests now that he hasn't faced at ah this football club. And really, obviously, we...
Speaker: who knows how he reacts to that. um What I would say is i was a bit surprised, you know, despite how awful the performance was about some of the booing at the end, just because man alive he has got a lot of in a lot in the bank. We'd be in League One without him. Let's not forget that. He's got a lot of credit in the bank and maybe, you know, the booing was directed it ah elsewhere. um But I do think,
Speaker: I do think there's enough evidence from last season and what he's done elsewhere that he's sort of quite relatively simple brand of football. um And I don't mean that, you know, disrespectfully. i think it's a good thing that he's that his system is pretty simple um that I think.
Speaker: I'm more confident with him turning it around than say Dorrup turning it around or Manning turning around or indeed Wagner turning it around. And Wagner did turn it around that season in terms of um results as well. And it is very early in the season. ah We are only eight games in.
Speaker: We are scoring lots of goals. There are huge amount of positives going forward. When if you look, think back to Manning, there was no positives whatsoever. If you look back to Torop, our decent performances were in real so quite big spurts and gaps between them. um so I do think there's yeah more than enough there. And he's ah more than ah an as enough of an experienced manager to have more faith in it than a less experienced manager, I think.
Speaker: Oh, come on, Big Phil. Please, please turn it around. I'm just sick of Norwich being crap as well. so yeah It's just so depressing. that nice me but In the last four seasons, we've had that game. And last season, we had Wrexham at home. The season before that, I can't remember. And then the season before that, we had Plymouth away. like And they're all promoted they're all promoted teams.
Speaker: Oh yes, they literally are all promoted. Sticking to the brand, I would say ah one thing I would like Big Phil to sort out is those tight jeans because it's getting ridiculous now. They're the tightest jeans I've ever seen. the jeans the problem?
Speaker: I think they might be. i As previously discussed, he's worn some really weird things this season so far. I think maybe he is he's a man that looks best in a coat. um Maybe we need to accept that. But even then, i think the jeans have got to go.
Speaker: Loosen the press, loosen the genes. They do look like proper like sperm count killers, don't they? like those genes So maybe we are missing a bit of oomph because of that. Yeah, that is not an entry that I have in the spreadsheet, sperm count. Yeah, I couldn't tell you, couldn't tell you. um Okay, well, that seems like a good place to move on. ah To Sophie, who has been all over the place lately, and I mean geographically. but it could easily count for her mental state as well, what with all the late defeats and hammerings that she's been witnessing. But her task, for us at least, is simple.
Speaker: One word a week throughout the season. Last week it was goals. Could it possibly be more literal than that again? do we need to ready the bleep machine again? Take it away, Sophie. MUSIC
Speaker: Helamitous.
Speaker: Fair enough, I think. We can't really take any more misery, I think. So um let's move on, because all this season we are rolling through the greatest canaries in the last 26 and a half years. It's a perfectly sensible time frame, OK? According to you, in our Canary Countdown series, We'll be revealing the names two at a time. And the beauty of a countdown is that the players just keep getting better and better as we go along. These are the players who 393 of you voted for in your top 25 list. So if you don't like it, then ah take it up with Kleisthenes, the father of democracy. You'd have to Google that.
Speaker: On this podcast, ah we're going to be in a place that Norwich City would love to be inhabiting, and that's inside the top 20 of the Premier League, but maybe that counts for the championship as well these days. Just a reminder that Zoe and Dan have no idea who's coming up, so they'll be about to demonstrate just why they are generally considered the best in the business with some measured takes completely on the fly. Right, I'm going to play the jingle right now.
Speaker: It's Tetris!
Speaker: Okay, last time out, we were in the land of the giants with Dion Dublin at 23 and John Ruddy at 22. Head to our sub stack to read more about those two or over to our last subscriber special podcast for a little bit more from us. Naturally, we'll now be heading to number 21. So here we go. Number 21.
Speaker: Yes, I'm going to enjoy this one. Maria Vrenčić, born in Slavonský Brod in the former Republic of Yugoslavia in May 1989. He joined Norwich City in what year, Zoe? 2017? 2017?
Speaker: the twenty seventeen Excellent. From... you get this, Dan, best of luck. ah cut It was a team that had just been relegated from the Bundesliga to the second tier. i can't remember who it was. Darmstadt is correct for €750,000 and left in dan again.
Speaker: oh um twenty twenty one we are very good at the years well done to join zoe
Speaker: an English team. The priesthood? The English priesthood is correct. Stoke City on a free transfer. flight I'd wiped that from my memory. anyone less Stoke City than Mario Ranchic?
Speaker: Ranchic got off to a slow start with the Canaries with only one league goal in his first season in 2017-18. But like so many other Norwich City players, he came to the boil the following season, scoring 10 goals from midfield in a year in which he only started 16 games. He scored in the game that won City promotion against Blackburn and he got the clinch for the title at Villa Park and scored one or two other memorable ones that year too. He was one of a handful of two-time title winners with the Canaries sticking around to top the championship under Daniel Farker once again in 2020-21. Zoe, you're a vibes person. We need some good vibes right now. What a victory for the vibes people out there for this lad to get in the top 25.
Speaker: Ultimate vibes man, wasn't he? ah Mario, absolutely wonderful. um Joined us with that bleached blonde hair. Everyone immediately hat him hated him, thought he was a soft touch. ah Couldn't understand, you know, why he was playing. And then over the course of the next 12 months became, um you know, everybody's sort of special boy. um he He was a funny player. Like, he was a very funny player because he sort of lumbered around quite a lot. Like, he wasn't particularly light on his feet.
Speaker: He was a bit sort of, yeah, all over the place. But my goodness, ah could he kick a football when he wanted to? um And he, you know, he's the...
Speaker: when you look back to that season, which was one of the most incredible of of all of the seasons in 18, 19, he is right up there with some of those special individual moments. Um, obviously his goal against Sheffield Wednesday is the type of thing that if you're feeling like we are all feeling about Norwich city right now, if you go back and just watch that on repeat a few times, uh, that will cheer you up.
Speaker: Um, And he's just, ah you know, a wonderful story. He was a refugee ah from Bosnia, you know, grew up in in that civil war. um And it really felt like we had a really kind of international group that season. Remember, obviously, in the last home game of the season, I think it was when um Along Come Norwich sort of had all of those flags of um of of all of the different nationalities of our players up in the Barclay and it felt really special. um
Speaker: And, you know, great looking guy, imagine him with a nice glass of wine, chilling out. um He's a man that could probably pull off tight jeans. um Remember when he came back, I think with...
Speaker: Was it Zimbo or Steeperman? I can't remember. They came back and renounced onto the pitch. He was wearing some sort of white coat, ah which very Mario. um Just, yeah, just makes you feel warm inside.
Speaker: Yeah, like a reminder of good times, Dan. I think Vrancic might be our ultimate cult player. He was never our most important. And for kind of quite a lot of his Noro City career, he couldn't actually get in the team.
Speaker: But yet it feels totally right for him to be here to me. I don't know if if you would agree with that. Yeah, he was a sort of man of moments, wasn't he? um Rather than someone who, you know, like a Johnny Housen or an Ollie Skip who'd put who'd play 40 games and be seven, eight out of 10 every single game. He was someone who would come in and bang in two goals at Ellen Road in a top of the table clash or...
Speaker: uh come off the bench i think to think he was off the bench to set up pukie's winner at home against milwell in a 4-3 win i might fancy that um and obviously the yeah blackburn goal the sheffield wednesday goal it's sort of endless highlights should have had one of the great premier league assists but var ruled that out out obviously um Yeah, and also a reminder of the sort of depth that we had in midfield that he wasn't, you know, Leitner and Tetti started that season in midfield in 18-19 and he only came in because of Leitner's injury as well. but Like like a lot of sort of Croatian, Bosnian, um Serbian players sort of from the Balkans, very sort of technically correct without being great runners, maybe, and but really, really good. Had sort of eyes on the back of his head occasionally. But if you wanted him to, you know, sprint 10 yards, then that probably wasn't his game. But luckily he had either Teti or Tribal to to do that for him when it when he played for us. He always sort of a felt like he could be a brilliant number 10, but actually wanted needed that pitch ahead of him a little bit more. So it was just a really good number at eight for us. And um maybe the Premier League was a little bit too bustling for him and a bit too quick paced. But my God, he was just beautiful to watch in in the Championship.
Speaker: Yeah, I just had a little look that 4-3. In the league, at least, that's the last time we we've won Oh, good. That's only 10 years now. Is he the Rody player that had a goal celebration that was to do with drinking a cup of coffee as well? Oh, he was sponsored by ah a local coffee firm, wasn't a say' he? Oh, was he?
Speaker: Yeah, you know all the players are sponsored by ah someone. He was sponsored by one of the local coffee firms and... I think he did like an advert. Yeah. That's sort of disappointingly corporate for, was Steeperman sponsored by like Chroma crabs? Should have been. like After the celebration, maybe. ah Yeah. I mean, can't disagree with any of that. And obviously a lot of you have, well, unsurprisingly, Vranchic came up quite a lot in the comments that people left. Michael Smith, who was slightly worried about in terms of an infatuation, said, my sweet prince, brackets, Vrancic, the dark-haired version, many players on my selection were better than him, but none made my heart sing the way he did when he had the ball swoon. So, yeah.
Speaker: There's certain players that would be referred to as a sweet prince. I feel like Mario is definitely one of them. Johnny Halson, I think definitely people would refer to as their sweet prince. There was something quite princely about mario though wasn't there I think just the all-round look and and the game Ali Higgins said that he picked him for his stunning good looks I mean you know it's it's ah it's a reasonable enough reason for doing it Josh Piper said Super Mario and eternally underrated Jeff Fawcett who's been a fan since 1967 said born then it's a good 23 years later He said, Mario is in for the free kick against Sheffield Wednesday. The loudest I have ever heard, Carrow Road. That might be a discussion for another day. What's the loudest you ever heard, Carrow Road? And Meg said, best Norwich moment goes to Vrancic for the free kick against Sheffield Wednesday.
Speaker: ah Two people put him in first. No prizes for guessing who one of them is. Michael Smith, the swooner. And Jan, don't know if they are related, but they did submit theirs at the same time. So maybe there's a Mario Vrancic household out there. So, yes, at number 21, Mario Vrancic. And at number 20, I'm going to call this a vibe shift.
Speaker: Number 20. Number 20. Malky. Oh, Malky. Malky, my guy. Probably not a sweet prince, I think. Yeah.
Speaker: probably not a sweet prince i think and It's controversy. Here we go. and Malcolm George Mackay, born in Bells Hill in North Lanarkshire, Scotland. He joined Norwich City in 19... Oh, nearly gave it away. Let's ask Zoe. 98? Yes.
Speaker: Three from three on the years tonight. Really good stuff. From Dan... ah ah which Which of the big ones? Celtic?
Speaker: Correct. For £350,000 after an initial loan and was released in, Dan, what year? when did it When did you say joined again? He joined in 1998. So it was was he still there in 2000?
Speaker: Come on, this is easy, this one. 2000 and... When did we get promoted? 2004. 2004.
Speaker: Correct. After which point you joined, Zoe? West Ham. Correct. Four from four. Very good stuff. Big Malky fans on this podcast. Initially having to fight for his place, Mackay found his place in the team around the turn of the millennium and was a key part of the side that reached the playoff final in Cardiff in 2002, coming second in the Barry Butler Player of the Year Award that season. He was also a key member of the title winning team of two thousand and three four starting 45 of the 46 games, all of them alongside partner in crime, Craig Fleming.
Speaker: in this i'm gonna not all crimes maybe yes speaking of which i'm going to try and talk about i think we'll try and talk about norwich city careers but there obviously will be the odd occasion when we get dragged into other discussions and there is an elephant in this particular room and i'm not just talking about big milky's turning circle there in 2014 text messages were made public of mckay being disrespectful of other cultures mckay apologize, although denied stating anything of a homophobic or sexist nature. Clearly, we're not going to repeat any of those here, but you can look them up and decide for yourself whether that is accurate. and Anyone who voted will obviously have their own views on whether that's relevant to his standing as a Norwich City great or not. But I think there'll be plenty who did, so worth prefacing that in this discussion at this point. Dan, I don't know whether that's something that you took into account or not, but on the pitch, at least, his his achievements as a Norwich City player were significant.
Speaker: Yes, he had a very good centre-back partner, I would say, who um was probably far too good for for ah the second tier of English football. So it was probably quite fortuitous that he played alongside him.
Speaker: um Yeah. High praise indeed. And remember, you can find out whether these players made our 25 or not our Patreon bonus podcast.
Speaker: Well, you know, we we might we're going to have to do well to fit into an hour, so I won't press you any further. Zoe, um yeah, I mean, I guess we can talk about he had he had some big moments, right?
Speaker: He did. um First thing that springs to mind is the ah where our run to the playoffs um in 2002. think he definitely scored against Wolves in the semi-final. Yeah, he did. um And it I feel like there was a ah spell when we were on that really good run up to to this to the playoffs that it felt like he scored every week. um I've probably conflated that in my head, but you know when you just get a sense that someone...
Speaker: um someone who's always popping up with a goal. um He, I mean, yeah, he was an integral part of of two teams, one that nearly got promoted and the one that did. um As you you, I mean, you've already mentioned his turning circle. I think he did have his limitations.
Speaker: um Also fascinating man who looked like a sort of, 45 year old man, probably from being about 20 years old. I expect like it, it just, you know, obviously a big, big, big guy, but yeah, always looked probably older than he was, um, in footballing terms alone. Um, you know, way up there in terms of, of the last, of the last century. and,
Speaker: and Yeah, I think it was always an interesting one, wasn't there? Everyone was split about our decision to release him before we went up to the Premier League. I think the same thing happened with West Ham. When he went to West Ham, they got promoted the following year and they released him as well. And then went up again with Watford the year after that. Yeah, so, you know, there's maybe a suggestion there that, you know, maybe you're not good enough for the Premier League, but um he certainly played a massive part in some of those those big moments at the start of this century.
Speaker: Excellent. Very professional of you. and So James Morgan said he has genuinely not seen a better attacking header of a ball for us. Scored a double against Ipswich, plus a bunch of fight. Did he not beat Grant Holt, James Morgan?
Speaker: um Well, this is it's his opinion. I'd know who'd win a headbutting contest between those two. He also said the player we all hoped Grant Hanley would be.
Speaker: So... Well, interestingly, I just checked and Grant Hanley has 65 more Scotland caps than Malky Mackay. Yeah, Mackay, when I was reading up on this, was something like the oldest debutant for Scotland in about 37 years because he got called up at the age of 32 when he was with us um and obviously went on to great things after as well. David Cashmore said, I went with Malky because he produced Moments.
Speaker: I can still remember now, which is fair enough. ah Highest anyone put him. Two people had him in third. Someone who didn't give their name. So they're nameless and shameless. And Corinne. But 43 people put him in their top 10. That's quite a lot more than anybody else we've had so far. So there's obviously still quite a bit of affection out there for him.
Speaker: So that's that absolute chalk and cheese pairing discussed, or in some cases not discussed on the main podcast. But if you want more on Why Wouldn't You, then our bonus Patreon podcast will be out on Wednesday with more on the duo that everyone is calling Malkio. you get that one? Yeah, great. And that's this week's Canary Countdown.
Speaker: So it is a full three week detox to get Norwich city out of our system before we're back on the bad stuff with a trip to table topping Swansea on the 10th of ok October. Firstly, how do we feel about the Uber break?
Speaker: Like it's obviously at at the expense of two shorter ones. Does this, this is this working for us? Well, it is right now because I never want to see their faces again. Hopefully I'll get over that. Um,
Speaker: I don't know. I think I'm, I'm kind of quite up for it. I quite, it allows you to make plans to do things during this football season that sometimes even a shorter international break doesn't really allow for. Um, so that's good for everybody's mental health. Um,
Speaker: Also, yeah, sometimes when they're a bit stop-start, like you have those two that are usually that are in quite quick succession before Christmas, it can be a bit annoying. So, um you know, hopefully um all of Swansea's early momentum will have been completely forgotten um and they'll be dreadful when we play them. Yeah, what that's kind of, I think, what we probably need. um Dan...
Speaker: So what we haven't had so far this season is many injuries until yesterday. Toure's shoulder. ah Kenny, did he feel his ankle pop? I think did someone say yes apparently so it doesn't sound great. Kruzeni obviously went off and Giallo has got one of his sort of mystery. He'll probably be out for a while. Injuries. i guess Kenny and Toure are the big ones. How do we solve those particular issues if they're not around? i mean, it's a million years away, but, you know, what would we do if those two were out?
Speaker: Cry a bit more. um Isn't it? It's mad like two players having their shoulders pop out in one game. Was that what Kraseni had a shoulder? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they popped it back in and shoulder again. And he's obviously had surgery in, don't know if it was the same shoulder, not sure if that was mentioned.
Speaker: He had surgery, he didn't need to stop that happening in the summer. But, you know, but fair enough, fair play for him to come in back on the pitch after your shoulder's fallen off. Yeah, just yeah arm just his arm dangling to one side as he sort of, loped about like he was in some sort of Dickens book. Or like John Wayne sort of throwing one shoulder around or um or indeed, and i' was going to give a big spoiler alert for anyone who's not seen Usual Suspects there.
Speaker: i the and ah Well, so, i mean, obviously we've got a lot of depth at number nine and um So I feel like with Makama and Chris Gorin, I mean, you're always going to miss someone who is in red hot form and just seems to be able to score from nothing at the moment. But there is a lot of like Makama, a lot of us have said, I think that he's got more an all round game. um i think it was noticeable that he does need more time. on Sunday. I thought he started well when he came on, but faded unsurprisingly after what he hadn't played more than 25 minutes for nine months. um So hopefully this sort of three-week break means he can you know get a bit fitter.
Speaker: um But yeah, Kenny, I think my one concern about our summer business was that we felt light in central midfield and talking about Mario Vrancic earlier you know and how much depth we had under Daniel Farker in in that area of the pitch. um My one concern was if Kenny got injured, like what does that look like in the midfield? And as we talked about earlier, it's hard to know whether Kenny's struggling this season or whether he's just you know having to do too much work with Mattson to go around playing whack-a-mole in the central areas.
Speaker: um But... If something pops in your ankle, then right tell you what does pop is ligaments. So hopefully that's not the case. But if it is, then we're about to find out what a kennel-less midfield looks like for the first time since 2017.
Speaker: um Now, I do think that Jacob Wright's probably done enough to earn a start, whether that's at number 10 or will have to be um in central midfield ah alongside Mattson. But think the wider picture is, A, you lose Kenny's experience in a team without much experience. um And you lose um Kenny at his best as well, which, you know, as we saw last season, I've seen many times before, it's covering an awful lot of ground. Actually wanting to take risks, don't always come out ah come off, but he is one who will keep carrot trying to take risks even when things are going against them. um
Speaker: So, yeah, it's kind of hard to know how it's going to go because it's been so long since we had a Kenny-less season. But i'm I am slightly concerned and have been since the summer that we lack quality in central midfield if either Kenny or Mattson goes down.
Speaker: I mean, he missed a few games, I think, at the end of that season under David Wagner, the the Dean Smith-Wagner season. I think it's fair to say, judging on performances and results there, that did not go well. was like eight out of ten or something like that? Yeah, it was about the worst. Was that the season where he kept getting suspended and then he was injured? No, that was terrible. It felt like he hardly played that season as well, and that probably didn't go very well either. Will we ever be good again without Kenny in our midfield?
Speaker: yeah i did it I know there was a lot to be annoyed about on Sunday. um this and and Maybe it was just how much had already happened, but it really annoyed me that he just didn't go down when he got injured as well. It's like, what are you trying to prove, kenny Like he was clearly injured. He couldn't walk.
Speaker: The ball was still in play. People were passing it to him and he couldn't move. So like it was sort of putting things at risk as well as himself, obviously. And then he just sort of walked, you know, recused himself from the situation, walked off and took his boot off.
Speaker: But it felt like if he had just gone down for some treatment, even though if if that treatment was never going to fix the problem, we might have had the opportunity to at least have a go at telling some players where to stand while we were down to 10 men when he wasn't playing. It just felt like, him i you know, felt it was all very noble and... I'm sure it came from a good place, but it was just like, come on, just lie on the floor for a bit. Yes, that's what professional footballers are supposed to do when they get hurt. That's what everyone else does. guess part of the problem is he's the captain and the leader of this team and we would have been down to 10 men was we ended up being if he went off. So maybe you just felt a sense of moral duty to at least try and carry on Whether that helps him or not in the long run, I don't know. How do we think we're going to, I mean, again, is there any point in even asking this question? Have we got, and like, will we have stuff sorted? Are we going to be competitive in this game? Because obviously, you know, we've just lost at home to Bolton, so everything points to a defeat away at the league leaders. But yeah maybe you're right, Zoe. Three-week break.
Speaker: We freshened things up. Well, ah interestingly, it sounds like the FA's decision on Tonda Eckert, and obviously we play Southampton in that week back as well, is going to be announced this week.
Speaker: um So we might be facing a Southampton team without their star manager, which... ah could play into our hands who knows and especially we play them on a few days after they've played portsmouth in the their sort south coast derby as well so that that's something to cling on to but like we have so many players away on international duty and then they come back and we're straight into a three game week um scheduling is absolutely mad And I know it's because obviously weve we advanced a couple of rounds in the Carabao Cup, so we could have had a couple of weeks, you know, ah without playing Tuesday, Wednesday. But it just feels like it's been unbelievably relentless since the start of the season. and No time to breathe. And there isn't when they come back either. But what I do hope
Speaker: is that it affords Clermont and his coaching staff sort of a bit of time to properly review the performance, sit like the first batch of performances, properly like sit down, spend hours like trawling over you know where where it's gone wrong and where it's gone right. And that at least affords them to sort of get a clearer picture than they would be able to if they were straight into you know another three games in a week, as it has been. So even though the players aren't in and he won't have the opportunity to maybe drill them in a slightly different way, um at least he'll have an opportunity to at least sort of reassess how we've, or assess how we've performed over the last few months or weeks.
Speaker: Got to really stumble over that bit, didn't I? Yeah. My money's on a Russell Martin return to Southampton, by the way. That's what's to happen there. I hope Leicester fans would be delighted, wouldn't they? Yes, my money's actually on it. There's more chance of Will Still going back to Southampton than Russell Martin. Or Ed Still. Or Ed Still or any other Stills. Or Ed Sheeran.
Speaker: From Kenny to Kenny other business. any I mean, Ed Sheeran would probably do like a job share between Southampton and Portsmouth, wouldn't he? Loves playing both sides, that guy. Anything catch your eye this week? I noticed Emi whipping one in past a cowering Madders um in kind of ex-Norwich City legend's watch for Villa. I'm kind of i' past the point of feeling sad about Emi doing well for Villa now. I just want him to be good. Delightful. You sort of live like ah living vicariously through him as a Norwich fan over the last few seasons, like enjoying, enjoying how, you know, he's come back from a major injury and his, his success. that
Speaker: and I didn't realise Madison was on the pitch at the time. It was sort of his fault a bit, wasn't it? that He kind of turned away. Yeah, didn't get tight enough on him. Because ah i listen i I listened to Tim Krul on Radio 5 Live summarising that goal. So it was a nice triumvirate of ex-Norrid City that with and they were talking about. Was he doing the full Tim? They weren't commentating on it. So it was him and a sort of commentator at the game. So they kept sort of passing over to them for an update.
Speaker: um So, yeah, that's quite I didn't I didn't listen to the whole game, but just heard that discussion, which is fun. Nice. Well, we were saying we need more goalkeepers. Someone said it maybe was probably Ryan. We need more goalkeepers in the media. So what better goalkeeper could you have than Timmy Grohl?
Speaker: I mean, another Kenny other business is that we've not even mentioned that we lost 5-0 in the middle of the year. we have Maybe for the best, ah but best to acknowledge it just to so people don't think we've all gone mad. Yeah, I think maybe when the third goal went in about two minutes into the second half,
Speaker: which actually happened in both games this week. from linna I think at that point I thought, yeah, we're not going to talk about this at all on on Monday night. There's really no point. Great cup run though. Really, really enjoyed it.
Speaker: okay um I think that'll probably do. That's probably time for today's podcast. Yeah. Remember, you can, you know, amongst all the other plugs, you can follow us on Twitter or Instagram at otb underscore pod underscore NCFC for just great updates on either format. Just follow it all. And yes, we promise we'll make it worth your while. Thank you so much to our guests tonight.
Speaker: Dan, thank you very much. Thanks, Steve. Thanks all. And Zoe, thank you. Thank you. And thank you everyone for for sticking with us during this dark week for Norwich City. Dark, dark week. I mean, we've covered a few. We have covered all of those terrible games that we mentioned earlier. so you know, we'll we'll keep coming back for more punishment. No one's flown over from America to apologise for everyone on on Radio Norfolk yet. So we're not in that.
Speaker: ah We're not as bad as it has been. No, no. but yeah we're not We haven't even started the death spiral yet. We know how that feels. And thank you, everyone, for listening. Our Patreon subscribes will be able to catch us over at the international break with a couple of special podcasts that we have planned. But for everyone else, we'll be taking a break from talking about opposition goals until after the Swansea game, at least. We might have any to talk about there. Have a great few weeks. Take a breather. And remember that none of this matters, really. We'll be ready to go again with you after the international break. Until then, never mind the danger.
