Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome to OTB, a Norwich City podcast, the Norwich City show that won't block you when things are going a bit wrong. I'm Ryan Livermore, and once a year, the eyes of a nation turn to this tiny hamlet in East Anglia to watch a master at work. The master, Big Belgian Phil, the most revered head coach, the Groundhog, who, as legend has it, has never lost this many games in a row in his managerial career.
Speaker: The question we have to ask ourselves today is, does Phil feel lucky? You guessed it. It's Groundhog Day at Carrow Road, and it's a proper Groundhog Day with our panellists too. First off is everyone's favourite scapegoat, who is definitely absolutely part of the reason we lost again. It's Zoe Morgan. Zoe, when will you learn not to go to games?
Speaker: ah Pretty soon, if it carries on like this, I would imagine, for the benefit of everybody, including me. Yes, hello Ryan, I am still but bearing the burden heavily of our defeat yesterday. And it feels all the more fresh because we are indeed recording this on the Sunday night because we were just that desperate to relive it all. It's got to be as fresh, the pain has got to be as fresh as possible ah to relive on the podcast. Yes, 100%. 100%. The next is the man who thankfully told us that after Southampton, we had a pretty nice-looking run of games. It's Dan Brigham. How did that go, Dan?
Speaker: Hello, Ryan. Hello, everyone. ah Well, I did say it was a kinder-looking run of games, at which it is. Doesn't mean we're going to win them, though, does it? But I will take... um If I can take anything from this run of six defeats in a row, it maybe means that you won't keep bringing up the fact I said we should have brought Liam Manning in last summer um because, you know, everyone was saying how great Clemens is and look what's happened there.
Speaker: Yeah, but there was actually cause for saying how great Clement was last year. That's the kind of difference. And finally, our to task stataal lads and finally at a statistical doomsayer, who I'm sure has plenty of facts to make us all feel better. It's Steve Sanders. Steve, I'm very much looking forward to Stat Attack tonight.
Speaker: They won't make you feel better. but It depends how just how bad you're feeling. but you know I'm setting a pretty low bar. ah None of us really want to be here on a Sunday night, I don't think. so no i want I want the listeners to immediately feel incredibly grateful that we've even bothered to this. We don't want to talk about this any more than you want to listen to it. okay but you know Even if we'd won six on the bounce, we wouldn't want to be here on a Sunday night. Sunday nights are for watching Antiques Roadshow in your pyjamas and getting incredibly stressed out about work in the morning. um i am very thrown by this course of action. Do you think that's what Big Phil's doing right now?
Speaker: Watching Antiques Roadshow, getting stressed about having to address the players in the morning. Just a quick reminder, if you are feeling particularly grateful that us at OTB are recording on a Sunday, well, we've got some more content for you. We are now on Patreon and Substack for all of your extra content needs, steering you through this oh-so-depressing 26-27 season. Now, for just £2 a month, you can gain access to exclusive episodes and ad-free content on Patreon, and our free Substack will be regularly updated as the season goes on, too.
Speaker: Now, after the lows of the weekend, let's get high instead with Zoe Morgan's bongs.
Speaker: Are we cursed?
Speaker: Blocking people on Twitter, the digital version of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting, la la la la.
Speaker: Volunteer hate peddlers restore Britain, flying out flyering outside Carrow Road, blissfully ignorant to football being a gloriously multicultural industry.
Speaker: Concerns are growing that the Norwich City team has been zapped by the flashy thing from Men in Black, causing mass erasure of 2026 from their memories.
Speaker: Ipswich losing not enough this time.
Speaker: Dan, I'll come to you first, please. ah Pop-off queen, more like drop-off kings, am I right? Am I right?
Speaker: I have no idea what that means. Anyone else has no idea what that means. I only know slightly what it means because I think Ryan said it before. I didn't know then and I don't know now. Something to do with Pringles, maybe? I don't know. I hope so. Dan, is this the biggest drop-off we've seen from a Norwich City side?
Speaker: Ever. I'm going to pose that to you. It's a strong one to start. but but
Speaker: I was just trying to think of times we've gone from promotion contenders one season and you know by the end of it we were playing promotion contending football at the end of last season to just being relegation fodder. um Maybe the drop-off one for the young ones here in 94-95 95-96 from being in Europe to getting relegated yeah good one um the year later. nice um So that's going back a good 32 years. I'm sure there's probably a few in the middle, but um but can we call it a drop-off when we were doing exactly the same thing this time last year? How long does like a, what's the opposite of a drop-off? A um collection...
Speaker: up on collection on how long does that have to go on before for before it's a drop-off because really like if someone went on holiday for six months um say back in november and and didn't follow norwich at all and came back now it'd be like well nothing has changed whatsoever um but yeah it it is it is obviously staggering that we've gone from playing sort of really sort of fearsome football where teams were afraid to play us to playing sort of And that includes at the start of this season, by the way, teams would have been fearful about playing us because it's a threat we delivered in attack, even though we were too open at the back. Now we're just playing really sort of meek, humdrum, Manning-esque football since the international break. And we're now a team that I imagine most teams will be happy to play and will come on to But obviously, we've got Cheltenham next, so I don't think a one in eight games. So it really feels like the clash of whatever an opposite to the Titans is. I'm not doing very well. The Shytans coming up. Yeah, it's extraordinary. No one expected it. And I think maybe worst of all is that don't think anyone at the football club even sort of would have planned anything.
Speaker: for this season mimicking last season, which probably leaves us in a bit of a perilous state, I think. Zoe, it's it's all well and good saying that this is a different side to the one that ended last season, ah sort of last last spring. But the reality is as well, it's kind of different from the side that we had two months ago as well. Like we, yes, there were a couple of performances like Millwall, for example, which wasn't too great, but against West Brom, they should have got something. And then you look at the wins at Burnley, Sheffield United, the way they were very resilient against Birmingham too. It's, Why has there been such a drop off in such a quick period of time? Because it does like look like it's turned on a sixpence.
Speaker: I mean, every week I seem to turn up here and talk about how baffling it is. um It's weird. ah Like there's nothing else to say about how like it's so weird and unexpected. um And yeah, we did start, yeah definitely the start of the season, even when we had a couple of games where we didn't get results, you could definitely say we can see the promise there. You can see what we've got to offer. You can see that we're going to score goals. You can see that we are ah pretty devastating in attack.
Speaker: um And yeah, it's sort of all all vanished now. And I think, yes, we've lost Torre and that really sort of, I guess, yeah,
Speaker: you can't really beat having a ah striker in, in quite ferocious form like that. So, um, that's a valid excuse, but given how some of the other attacking players were playing towards the start of the season compared to now massive drop off, um, and you can only really point to the fact that their confidence has just disappeared. um and, um,
Speaker: think I think that's got to you know that's got to be it. I see i see people saying, well, you know people are saying that this was a really good squad. I think they've just always been bad and the ah the rest of the year so far was an anomaly. I don't really think you can...
Speaker: say that I don't think you can say either way for certain where we, know, where we, the levels that we had at the start of this calendar year, um, was our norm or where we are now is our norm because they're both very different. But what we do know is where they were at the start of this calendar year.
Speaker: is what they have got within them. they are They are capable of doing that. That doesn't vanish. Like you don't suddenly become incapable of the things that you have in your gift.
Speaker: But they are currently not doing that. And it doesn't mean they can't ever do it again. But they need to try and work out what it is that's missing and how to get back into that. Because, yeah, they are not this bad.
Speaker: And maybe they're not forever that good. Who knows? But it's certainly in their power to play like that. And it's within this manager's power to get it out of them.
Speaker: um So they're going to have to do some hard work and work out what it is that's missing and get that back pretty quickly. It's a really good point, isn't it, Steve? Because ultimately as well, Norwich have kind of regressed into playing, I mean, some of the dullest football I've seen them play in at least a year. It is very one-dimensional, very predictable. And that only really comes from a side which is full of players who aren't necessarily confident in receiving the ball. And also a head coach who is very aware that he's been getting it wrong to start. So he's trying to almost reset them, bring them back to to basics as well. and And that's kind of, that's the only real battle you have in that situation is the one between your ears, right? Like it's all down to the the psychology and as Zoe said, just how low on confidence this group actually is.
Speaker: Yeah, and I think that's that's sort of the key for me. And I'm i'm similarly baffled to the other two is how it's gone so wrong so quickly. But to me, I think it comes down to the tactics. The the the vision that we had at the start of the season was high pressing, really intense. um We're going to, you know, we're going to batter teams with our like our fitness and we're going to hammer them, we're gonna win the ball high up the pitch and and that's the way we're going beat teams. um And it didn't work. like we but We were way too open and I think we sat here and certainly I did after the Bolton game and said, that has to change, we cannot play like that anymore. And I think...
Speaker: Big Phil has probably recognised that as well and has actually alluded in the last two defeats to the fact that we did actually have a structure in this game. You know, we we were structured. That's the positive ease the main positivity taken out of it is that we did have a structure.
Speaker: And... i don't I still don't feel we've seen as anything quite as bad as the Bolton game, although Saturday was pretty close. um But the problem is that when you don't play like that and you still play badly, it looks even worse because we're not scoring goals. We're not looking like scoring goals. We are a little bit more solid at the back.
Speaker: um I think Portsmouth... were the worst team I've seen win at Carrow Road for a number of years. So I don't know how much of a victory you can take in that. Since they last beat us at Carrow Road.
Speaker: But it's called five that time. that Like this time, they literally had to do nothing to beat us. They won a really easy penalty, barely had any other shots, but we're still good enough. Like they they held us at arm's length.
Speaker: And I think now we're on the back foot. clearly we're on the back foot because we are not going into games with the way that our manager really wants us to play. We're sort of, um we're we're kind of in defensive mode of, right, let's just get through and hope that we can find a way to win games. That kind of is what we have to do. That's probably what we have to do on Saturday. We have to find a way to win games. But the problem is that, as Zoe said, the confidence has taken an absolute battering at the same time and players are not doing the really simple things that they were doing with absolute ease at the end of last season. So I don't quite know where we go from here, but I think it probably does all stem from the fact that the tactics weren't quite right at at the beginning of the season and we're playing catch up from there.
Speaker: ah Dan, you said yourself last week that it's it's not quite as bad as last year, but is it starting to get that way? Only in terms of at least looking at the parallels where there was an expectation. We had some tweaks made to the squads to strengthen the previous year's weaknesses. We got a couple of decent results on on paper. Admittedly, the performances weren't there, but there's a been a sudden regression, which arguably it does...
Speaker: It does lend itself to like this idea that for those players who were here a year ago, there is a chance they could be thinking, oh, no, not not this again. And it could really lead to them going into their shell. And that could be a key reason as to why Norwich aren't performing at the moment. Yeah, I mean, I've already in their shell, so hopefully they'll go so far and they'll just come out the other side and we'll be good again. it is, I mean, let's get it right. Eight defeats in 11 is a disaster. This is disastrous. We're losing at home to Bolton, losing at home to Portsmouth. With all respect to those clubs, it's disastrous for any team with ambitions to get into the top eight. and Not only losing to them, but sort of resorting to hoofing it forward.
Speaker: for vast swathes of that game on Saturday to try and get back into it a desperate bid for an equaliser. That's disastrous. um I am concerned that Clement is not trusting his instincts, I think, when he came in last November.
Speaker: he didn't He talked about, I don't want this team to sort of nick 1-0 wins and sit deep and hit teams on the break to scrape our way to say, if you want this team full of confidence and a playing attacking football and taking it to teams. um And obviously, we are not doing that now. And as Steve sort of laid out, there is a reason we're not doing that now, because we were so open. um But he has swung so far the other way that...
Speaker: um It feels like a manager who's a bit lost and he's sort of coaching a game plan that doesn't really suit him. And as far as I'm aware, he hasn't sort of coached before. His teams have always been pretty attacking. He's very proud of saying strikers will always score goals in his teams. Well, I mean, over the last three games, no striker looks like scoring a goal.
Speaker: um And it's back with the... If Clement had come in in like March or late February and turned it around... It could have just been done on you know vibes, a team just sort of galvanised in that short period of time. But what was it, like 31 games? I guess he was here, was Manning sacked after 15.
Speaker: that's And the numbers were good as well. It's not just you know like a Reading a few years ago nearly got to the Premier League one penalty kick away from getting to the Premier League, but their numbers were dreadful and they got relegated the following season. Our numbers were good. Our performances were good. Our results were good for 30, 31 games last season. So it wasn't just like a flash in the pan.
Speaker: the And I agree with Zoe, this squad is good enough, I think. And Clement right now isn't getting enough out of it. And I don't think the players and the performances, especially on Saturday, the players that aren't sort of buying in. I think, i don't by the way, I don't think he's lost the dressing room at all. I do think there was a lot of effort. um But that lack of confidence means that effort is turning into really bad decision making because they're not quite sure what the game plan is now. had a look earlier and the pass accuracy from the three behind Makama.
Speaker: Brooks, 62%, kind of, okay, fine. That's decent, not great, but Slimani, our number 10, who's supposed to be our good technician, 50% pass accuracy, and Shortel's 46%. That is...
Speaker: That's not to dig out those players, although, you know, we could spend a lot of time digging out Slomani, I think. um What? That is... i think you might have just dug him out with that. is reaching sort of ghost, like Mark Andes, ghost levels at the moment, unfortunately. But it's not an individual thing. I think it is a collective thing. They're not quite sure what they're supposed to do when they when they eventually do get the ball. um Those connections haven't been formed because we keep changing the front four, partly because of injury, partly because players coming back. um partly because of sort of rotation, etc. But there's just no connection at the moment. And that's down for ah that's got to be down from Clement, understandably, giant to change the play way we play. But it just cannot get that balance right. But those 31 games last season still suggest to me...
Speaker: we have a bit of luck, we scrape a win from somewhere and a couple of wins, you can still build it back because there is enough evidence that when a young squad is full of confidence, they play really good football. But when they're lacking confidence right now, they look like i mean they look like that just ah can't beat anyone out there in the Championship.
Speaker: I mean, yeah, the thing which I think has me clinging on to hope, to be honest with you, is the fact that I do, as you say, given last year and how young the group is, it does feel like they are one result away from maybe putting together a six game winning streak.
Speaker: as well, but they seem very, very, well, streaky is the word, really. um Kind of with that in mind, Zoe, are there any limited sort of green shoots to this this group still, even though they are in probably the worst shape that they've been in as a collective but ah for, or certainly in the last year or so, because...
Speaker: As Dan kind of alluded to, yeah, we have tightened up a little bit. It has negated stuff at the other end of the pitch. But is there anything there that does make you think that there is a kind of due process that could allow them to turn this around quite soon?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, i haven't lost i haven't lost faith in all the players, I would say. um Which players have you lost faith in? Some of my faith in some of them has waned. um But I would say, for example, Cordoba was playing on Saturday this.
Speaker: we know Cordoba can play. And that was a relief because it did feel like he had, like original Cordoba had disappeared, but he was back. So that was good. They've all got, they've all got their good version in there somewhere. So we just need to see, try and work out what it was that unlocked Cordoba's good player and try and do the same to some of the others. um I think Mattson and Wright have not been,
Speaker: a disaster in terms of, you know, Kenny-less world. um I think Wright has stepped up um coming into the side and certainly offers us, um you know, something interesting when things go right. um i I'm worried a bit about Brooks, I would say, in terms of I do feel like his um performances have definitely dropped off. And the real effort that he was putting in earlier in the season...
Speaker: to win the ball back, to chase things down, to to press. That seems to have um dropped off a little bit. Obviously, we don't know the reason, but him walking straight down the tunnels when he's been substituted in the last two games...
Speaker: is always a bit of a a sort of wincing, like sort of get a bit of wince out of me when that happens. um So there is, i i do believe that this this team have got it in them. They need to work out what the best team is. I thought Magoma worked really hard when he came on, on Saturday, really tried to make something happen, as did Yongwa and as did Mahovo. And it was lovely to see Mahovo back. um But I think...
Speaker: but Well, we might get on to this, but it was very interesting in bringing Mohova on at right wing because you might say this is a sign of a manager that's lost it.
Speaker: I wonder whether... He was trying to recreate some of that magic from last year when we did not have enough fit players for everybody to be playing in their correct position. Throw someone in at a position that's not normal to them and see what happens. And I don't think it was the worst thing in the world. I thought Mahovo played really well. He was certainly up for it. so I don't know. I think you've got enough hunger there from some of the players maybe that haven't been playing and that maybe think they should be playing.
Speaker: um And we've got we do have the talent. i I don't believe that there's no way we're coming back from this. But it's obviously, it's all a bit worrying at the moment.
Speaker: I've got two theories. First of all, without sounding like a computer a conspiracy theorist, i do worry a little bit about the relationship between Brooks and Clement at the moment. I feel like there's there is something more to that, but...
Speaker: The Mahovo thing at right wing, to be fair, I agree. I think he did really well when he came on. He actually looked a threat. He wanted the ball. He was direct. And it didn't look like, you know, a left back who hadn't played much football in the last year. He looked like ah a right winger. But it it reminds me of, i heard a story on a podcast a few weeks ago about really, really weird reference about Steve Sidwell joining Chelsea. Yeah.
Speaker: From Reading in like 2007. I thought you were going to say. it's a classic tale. So um Jose Mourinho signed Steve Sidwell, but the whole summer was basically telling Abramovich, I need a striker.
Speaker: I need a striker. And they're like, no, no, it's fine. You've got Drogba, you've got Shevchenko. And Shevchenko had struggled a bit there the year before. So Mourinho went, all right, then I'll bet basically.
Speaker: brought in Steve Sidwell and instantly gave him the number nine shirt in kind of protest of not getting a proper striker. And it feels a lot like Mahovo coming right wing is, um is Clermont maybe be going, we don't really have any depth in this position now, guys, which might not strictly be true, but um almost might be a wake up call for someone like Antti Sinac as well, who was, um I guess, dug out on on Wednesday as well. So,
Speaker: Steve, friend of the podcast, Craig Dracott has asked us this on Instagram. If you had to pick one, what is the primary cause of our issues? Napa, Clement, ownership, our leadership structure, the squad, the players, I could go on.
Speaker: If you had to pick one, what is the primary cause of our issues, Steve? Yeah, i probably should have thought of this before I posted it in the chat. i didn't actually take any time to think, well, yeah, what actually is the primary cause of our issues?
Speaker: i think I think it's the right now with these results, I think it's squad. um I don't think it's a bad squad. Or hold on, is the squad and the players the same thing? I don't know. i think there's there's probably a a mentality and a resilience issue within this group of players because when we're good we're really good and when we're bad we're really bad and I don't think there are enough players who can kind of write you know turn the ship around the one that you would say we do have is Kenny who's obviously not here at the moment i just looking at the the age of the players who played for us uh Stacy is obviously 30 but
Speaker: um I think he's probably worried enough about doing his own job to be concentrating on what other people are doing and and maybe rightfully so. And then the next oldest outfield player of all the other, including the subs, was Yongwa, who has just turned 26. So that's a seriously young group of players and who have already kind of shown under another manager, a lot of them, that they don't really know you know when things when things aren't going right, they they don't have that mentality to turn it round.
Speaker: And I do think we that's where we're really lacking. And you know i i came ah ah last week I was on and saying, it's it's it's pointless blaming Napa for what's happening at the moment. But I guess if we're talking about squad building, that is the one thing that is really lacking in this group of players.
Speaker: And i I just, I think Dan's absolutely right. still think they're trying hard. the manager is The manager is a good manager. if We know this. The players, the the the squad that we've seen and over the last 12 months, these are not bad players. you know This is not ah a group of players that should be struggling to stay up in the Championship.
Speaker: but I just don't think they know how to respond to adversity. And that's where I worry because but when When does the adversity stop? Do we have another five games like this? And if so, does that mean manage you know does that mean the manager's position becomes untenable? I think the next few games are absolutely key.
Speaker: And i i yeah I don't quite know where we go from here, but we do somebody needs to grab this group by the scruff of the neck and kind of carry everyone else with them. Mattson maybe has got it in him, but um I just feel like heads drop. You know, Brooks is a classic example, as you say, kind of straight down the tunnel. And, you know, you I'm not singling out any player, but I just don't think we have anyone like a Hanley or even an Ashley Barnes who could who can look around them and say... Jesus Christ. Steve. Feels like that and he's bleeping out. I have invoked his name. do you know what though? i' Looking back like three years ago under Wagner, we were we had a sort of, maybe not quite as catastrophic a start. We started well and then tailed off and it looked like he was going to be gone. But they they turned it round and it was a better group of players for sure.
Speaker: But part of that process was winning ugly, getting a few wins on the ball, getting the confidence back. And I just think they had a... as group then that were just had had more of a and more about them mentally than maybe this current season. We saw that in the playoffs, didn't we?
Speaker: When we got mental strength from all these experiences. They were just exhausted at that point from all the mental strength that they'd used up. Thank God for Duffy and Barnes then.
Speaker: Well, I was going to say, if we're going to use that as ah as reasoning, then the spine of that team was what? Gunn, Duffy, Gibson, McLean, Sarah, Barnes and Sargent, who are all big, big characters. And I do agree with Steve. I don't think, barring McLean and Mattson, I don't really think there's anyone in that. Maybe McConville to a degree. but am I saying that because he's the tall centre-back, you know, but and de facto, they should all be big characters, but yeah, I feel like there there isn't really anyone there who is going to grab things by the ball by the horns, really.
Speaker: um Dan, let's move away from the football ever so slightly. I'd like to talk about the send off to Michael Wynn Jones, which was a just a bit lovely, wasn't it? Before the game.
Speaker: it It was very, it was very moving. It was obviously nice to see the legends back and some, you know, very surprising ones, which is testament to how meant how much Michael was loved. um I've never been sort of moved by ah clapping before, but I mean, I'm hearing 26,000 people and Fair play to the Portsmouth fans who a joined in and there was no sort of booing or anything like that, which you can get, um was very moving. And then the sort of oh on the ball city was very, very rousing um as well. It was...
Speaker: It was a lovely send-off um for him. It was nice that it didn't feel sort of too mournful. It felt like a celebration of Michael Wynne Jones.
Speaker: And as a man who lived his life to the full, that felt absolutely um right as well. that i do I am not afraid to admit that there was a little tear shed during the on the Ball City.
Speaker: Dan, were you not moved by clapping when you sat next to me and Todd Cantwell came over that thought? was certainly moved, but maybe to a different emotion. Moved to another seat. It was a bit like we were being punished, though, by seeing all of these players get wied wheeled out one by one, all of whom could have done a job probably yesterday. um And I don't know, it puts it, when you're a bit disappointed with everything that's going on and you're finding it difficult to sort of grab hold of like anyone in the team that's really standing out.
Speaker: Seeing all those players, you know, that have cared about the club enough to to stay associated with it or to come back on an event like this. you You do sort of feel like, I don't know, there's something that annoys you a bit again about sort of the performance on on the pitch a bit like, you know,
Speaker: you sort of think you should care about the, you know, the team that you're playing for and and this club and what it means to a lot of people. And, ah you know, in hindsight, it is, I don't want to say that they're not trying because they they are trying, but I don't know that sort of,
Speaker: The opportunity to become one of those people, they should be looking to become one of those people, you know, that goes down in in club history. That's what you should do when you join a club. um And it would be nice to see sort of a few of them.
Speaker: putting their hand up for that position and that invite should anything happen in the future. was unbelievably meek, our first sort 10, 15, our first four to five minutes really. And you'd think after, it not just because of the occasion, but just how loud on the ball City was. like you You should think those players should have thought, well, they've we've got their backing, like should encourage them to take more risks on the ball. to get flying into challenges a bit more and it just it just never got started did it which was and i'm not i'm not saying that's disrespectful or anything i understand like these are humans who are under a lot of pressure and lacking in confidence but it it it was a bit of a surprise that we didn't come flying out the blocks There are certain ex-players as well who I have on good authority complained a lot about the atmosphere and the crowd not doing their bit. So when they do do their bit, the least you can do in return is your bit as well as as players. And sadly, ah on Saturday, they failed to do that. But as we've mentioned before in this podcast, there is a ah wider reason for that. um
Speaker: Zoe, ah some people who weren't there on Saturday were the Norfolk Holdings group. The Atanasios did not make their way to Carrow Road. Now, obviously, the Milwaukee Brewers have made their first World Series final in decades. So, first of all, congratulations to them. But we you've... ah Don't care. Baseball. That's you, Block Steve. Yeah.
Speaker: ah you Zoe, you said just there about um wanting to have people who care about Norwich City. What does their lack of appearance to the occasion on Saturday say about their care for Norwich City?
Speaker: Yeah, it's really tough one to address because you don't know what happened behind the scenes. So you don't know. i don't know if anyone was there on their behalf, for example. I don't know if they sent a wonderful message and carefully sort of considered, I don't know, token of their appreciation. and So i don't want to sort of assume that nothing happened.
Speaker: I also don't begrudge them staying for such a, you know, such a big match. um Do you say match game? What is baseball?
Speaker: Ball game. um i don't know. Like, I would sort of, for you know, i would i would presume that that would be where they would be for such you know for such an important stage of that season.
Speaker: is just in unfortunate, isn't it? Like, I also think if we have we were third in the league and we'd have won comfortably on Saturday, no one would really have batted an eyelid about whether they were there for the tribute or not.
Speaker: um I didn't like much the very... sort of non-personal really tribute in the match day program for Mark Atanasio. felt like that could have been at least a bit longer. um they really sort of double spacing the lines on the page on the program to make it fit um uh I think it's just all a bit on I feel I there's nothing about what Mark Atanasio has said or done since he has been in charge of the club that's made me think he's not invested in it personally as well as financially like I do think
Speaker: that that is important to him but we are in this age now and it ah you know i said it after the news about Michael Wynne-Jones was announced about you know we are so we now so feel so far away from that era even though it was only a couple of years ago that they passed over control but we have gone from having two owners that you could look up to you know exactly where they sit in the ground they are always there They go to the away games, you know, you you will see you know him stood outside smoking and he will talk to you if you walk past him, you know, all of that we have moved a long way away from. And that has got his benefits because we now have, it would appear, a bit more sort of cash at our disposal. We're not quite in the dire straits that we have been. um And obviously,
Speaker: There were people that were uncomfortable with Michael and Delia's leadership and the decisions that they made during that time as well. And it wasn't perfect and all of that, but we have to, if we're going to accept this brave new world of sort of, of leadership outside of what we know, we're going to have to come to terms with the fact that they're not going to be at every game.
Speaker: They're not going to immediately rush over when things start to go wrong. Um, I would say not sure about the blocking on Twitter either, but it's, it's both, ah you know, it's sort of to be expected and, you know, like a bit like, oh yeah, this is what, what it is now, I guess. um And I imagine most clubs are the same. i imagine, you know, they don't know,
Speaker: much about their owners. They don't see them very often. That's the way football seems to be these days. And without sounding like and wanting to sound like a nana, it's a shame, but that's the way it's going, i suppose. I think just just the other thing to just quickly add as well is they were probably more conspicuous by their absence because the club did such an excellent job, not suggesting the club stitched them up, but the club did such an excellent job in organising football.
Speaker: the whole thing. And the tribute was really was really well managed. Ex-players, ex-managers, Stuart Webber was was even there as well. So, yeah, i think I think the fact that they weren't there probably, just it just looked, it the optics were bad, but it was always going to look like that. I mean, just to be to be honest, it it made me slightly think of... um Because it was so well done, it it made me slightly think, you know, when Prince Philip died, at that point I was like, think how big it's going to be for the Queen.
Speaker: So I was like, when Delia goes, and, you know, I don't want to talk that up in any sense, but they're going to shut off, like, the half of Norwich, surely. Delia's going to keep going for at least another 20 years, so we don't need to worry about that too much. That's true. I'll probably die before Delia's going to die. I did. And you know, who cares if Mark Atanasio wasn't there? Cause Wes was there. And really what, what more do you want other than Wes?
Speaker: Absolutely love the reaction to Wes being announced. It was so everyone was like, Ooh, Wes, uh, very gleeful. Um, so yeah, that's the bit we should grab hold of. Would you have had Wes? you think Wes could have been on the bench for us? Would you have given him 15 minutes at the end of the game? This was my question at halftime was who out of that lot would you bring on? Um,
Speaker: It's got to be Holti. Holti was the answer. Just to galvanise them. Yeah, but if you could have brought them both on, where's and Holti? Imagine. I'd have brought Nathan Redmond on with his flat cap.
Speaker: yeah Throwing an odd job style around at people. um Steve, would you be so kind as to hit us with a stat attack?
Speaker: The numbers are coming, so you better watch your back and get ready for the stat attack. Yes, it's going to be more like a stat mauling. It's going to be a vicious attack, this one, I'm afraid. Very different very difficult to know what to do after two 1-0 home defeats.
Speaker: um But might as well start with the fact that that is now eight defeats in a row in the month of October for us, just harking back to last season as well. and So well done, everyone. there It's nearly over, everyone. I think we've got two more games in October and and then it'll be November. Spoiler. They do call it the spookiest month, don't they, October? They do. and We've well and truly been spooked the last couple of years. Our last five seasons in October is played 30, won three, drawn nine, lost 18. Oh my boy God. That's the first season back in the championship. That was the first season back in the championship, yeah. Right. yeah family league as well Does that include the Premier League? Because if it include this if it doesn't include the Premier League, then that's going to probably be the first. It might be six seasons then anyway, but either way, that's Manning form. So not not good. um
Speaker: We have had no draws in our first 11 league games. I think everybody knows. was the most games at the start of the season without a draw since We drew in our 16th game the 31st of October 1964.
Speaker: mean true in our sixteenth game on the thirty first of october nineteen sixty four Number one on that was Always Something There to Remind Me by... not Scylla Black, is it? I mean, it might as well be. Dusty Springfield? Again, might as well be. The the third of that triumvirate, Sandy Shaw. sure And the number one film at that point was a Bond film.
Speaker: Oh, it... Is it Doctor is it is it dr No. Doctor No Point. dominat a Bang on. As in you're right that it's wrong. yeah um any any further get shall i give you Shall I give you a It'll be one of the...
Speaker: good gold finger yes yeah Yeah, you didn't need my musical clothes. You got your trumpet out and everything. yeah for the Yeah, luckily no one saw that, so that's fine.
Speaker: Thank God we are audio only on this podcast. It's a really vicious stat attack, like I said. and It's the first time in our history that this is a proper niche, no one cares stat. The first time in a history that two teams from the same county or city have won at Carrow Road in the same week. So well done, Hampshire. They're in the same county. It's a dance face then. LAUGHTER um um I think that's an incredible stat. It's great. That's fantastic.
Speaker: How long did it take you to work that out? oh Most of the weekend, I would say. I left it i left the game early. Does that include Yes. The thing is, we don't often lose twice in the same week at home. We now. Apart from the last couple of years. um But yeah, that's it's the first time it's its ever happened. So yep congrats to Hampshire.
Speaker: And finally, we have, i was sort of holding on to this one. ah It might still be needed, but we've lost our last six championship games when our leader, captain leader legend, Kenny McLean has not started.
Speaker: ah And in the last five and a half seasons, we've had 42 league games when he hasn't played from the start, which actually is a pretty good record in and of itself, I would say. Of those, we have won seven, drawn 10 and lost 25.
Speaker: twenty five Wow. what And Manning form. As good Mattson and Wright have been together, though we have missed... Someone just to break the lines, carry the ball forward, pick out like a striker from a bit deeper. Yes. God bless him. i remember when we were having conversations a couple of weeks ago about whether his legs had gone. And now, God, I wish we could have those legs back. I think we all said no, though. Oh, yes, we did. I we said they were firmly attached still.
Speaker: And then his shoulder fell off. Oh, no, it wasn't... No, it's his ankle. Yeah, that is leg-based, isn't it? Yes, it popped. He heard it pop. Felt it pop. A really whimsical little... quick Well, that's the stat attack.
Speaker: Now it's time for Sophie Leaney's Word of the Week. MUSIC PLAYS
Speaker: now it's time for sophie leey's word of the week
Speaker: Miserable.
Speaker: miserable
Speaker: The last thing Norwich need after the last two games is a tricky trip to a side who themselves haven't won since August and have only scored four times at home this season. It's Charlton away next for City. He will be backed by another sold out away end at the Valley. It's been a happy hunting ground for Norwich in recent memory with their last defeat away to the Addicts coming in May 2009. And we all know what happened that day, don't we?
Speaker: ah Dan, it's a proper stinky fixture, this one, isn't it? Yep. Yes. Stinky fixture does sum it up, I'd say. um I thought maybe at the start of season, we'd be looking at these fixtures and think, well, we'll just sweep these guys aside then. Maybe rest a few places. Maybe start Sam Field. Give him a few minutes.
Speaker: And now I'm thinking like, well, obviously you don't want Sam Field anywhere near this. You want to start our best 11. But what is our our best 11, though? Yeah.
Speaker: um when So, haven't won for eight games. Surely, you go there and attack, don't you? You go there and assert you sort of try and to assert your do your dominance with a bit of confidence.
Speaker: But i just can't see that happening, though. I see that as a really bit like the Portsmouth game, a game of very, very few chances of fine margins, which, you know, Portsmouth games have been. We haven't lost by more than one goal this season, which is ridiculous when we've lost eight games. um And we just just need a result. i I was encouraged slightly by about 10 minutes of play, I'd say, on Saturday when Magoma and Mahovo came on. And instead of just trying to whack it forward to Makama's head, we played it to his feet. And he is very good with his back-to-goal when the ball is played to his feet. Remember last time, last season,
Speaker: the amount of times he used to sort of roll defenders when ball went into his feet. And suddenly, were ball into his feet, and he was sort of popping it out wide or popping it back into the centre. And for 10 minutes, it sort of reminds me of why he's so highly rated and why we're all sort of looking forward to him coming back. And that's my green shoot that I'm kind of hanging on to is, um well, the fact he went through 90 minutes despite 24 hours earlier, Clement saying, You cannot do 90 minutes, which felt like very much a manager under pressure when he was still on there at the end of the game. The kind of decision of a manager under pressure, rather.
Speaker: and just And then Chris Goring came on and he was good, but we went too long again, as we did for the rest of the game. But that sort of 10, 15-minute period um when Magoma was finding Makama and Mahovo was getting in behind was...
Speaker: the only sort of bit of encouragement. I just kind of want to see that again on Saturday, get that ball into McCama's feet, get runners on behind in behind and get sort of players up close to him as well. Cause he is very, very good when the ball comes into him, but he is not great when it's sort of sailing towards his head and he's got big meaty center backs climbing all over him.
Speaker: Zoe, we just want a result, right? Like is the performance irrelevant at this point? Do we just need to get a a point or God forbid a win? I win. That'd be nice. I would say probably it is about the results. I think they need something to grab onto. um i guess I can't, I can't deal with their disappointed little faces again. i want us to see them happy. um so it needs to start somewhere.
Speaker: Don't really care how, but it needs to start. So yeah I think just work hard, work hard for each other. be bold, try some things and and see what happens. But yeah, um I would also wouldn't say no to a couple of goals after the last week or so, because if we have forgotten how to score as well as all of the rest of the things, that is even more scary. So um yeah, a couple of goals, even if there's not a clean sheet, but let's just try and win.
Speaker: Steve, is it the kind of game where you do go all out and and attack it with this kind of you know Things can't get much worse, right? but Or do you really have to dig in at a place like Charlton? Because, as I said when I teed this section up, they've only scored four times at home. So they're perhaps not the most threatening going forward. Can Norwich afford to be a little bit more open? Or is it a game where you... might want to push Jacob Wright into the 10 and start a Sam Field with Pella Mattson or start with more direct wingers provided Masaba is back. Or, you know, what would what would you do? um You're now Philippe Clement. What would you do?
Speaker: I'm Philippe Clermont. Oh my God. You're in your pajamas watching Antiques Roadshow. I think you're going to make Saturday's game. Well, I'm definitely going to end this by saying please at the end. So if I'm Philippe Clermont, that's the only thing I can guarantee. Well, I'm glad that you mentioned bringing in Sam Field because I was worried that when Dan said he wants him nowhere near the team, that i if I brought that up, I was going to look like a complete mug. I've already invoked the spectre of Ashley Barnes. So he's he's already upset enough.
Speaker: I don't think that would be the worst move, if I'm honest. Play him alongside Mattson. Allow Mattson to be Pella Mattson. To just run around a lot and have Sam Field sort of sitting in front of the defence. And yeah, I mean, I didn't... I think Wright had probably his worst game of the season yesterday. Aside from giving the away the penalty, I didn't think he was great. And we're just not playing it through midfield very well. I feel slightly sorry...
Speaker: for Slomani. I feel as though he's taking up good positions but just isn't get the ball's not going to him because we have no confidence to play it to him.
Speaker: That said, i think he's had enough chances in the 10 Paris Magoma has started the same number of games in the 10 this season that Liam Gibbs has and I do think he probably deserves a chance there at some... you know I know he he started against Swansea and wasn't great but he he's come on and and at least looked to bring the game to the opposition and and and threatened to start something. So I'd probably give him a start.
Speaker: Maybe Mahovo on right wing. Who knows? I was slightly upset that Masaba was ill, actually, because we I reckon he would have come on for Schwartau at the end and we would have seen Masaba, Makama, Magoma and Mahovo as the front four. But it would have been... A challenge for Chris, if nothing else. but Against a Megoma as well.
Speaker: yeah Yeah, there was another Megoma. And we had Macombville at the back, so it's all getting very confusing. um Chris Gorham looked quite good in a 10 as well. So maybe we have discovered a couple of things from from the Portsmouth game.
Speaker: i i don't I don't know. this is why I'm not a football manager. On the one hand, going all out attack and just doing what we do would be a great way to play, but I've feel as though grinding out a 1-0 win might be that our most likely path to victory.
Speaker: cannot Can I ask, actually, just on the Chris Goran, I thought he was very, very bright when he came on. I do also think, as I think I said, we then went too long to Makama and Chris Goran because Chris Goran can jump about nine foot in the air and Makama's massive.
Speaker: But when we've struggled, apart from right, probably in the 10, especially against Burrow when he came on there for real impact from that position, it Is he realistic option there? I remember Clement said he probably really kind of wasn't last season at number 10 because he wants more of a midfielder type in there. But bearing in mind, Clement was playing his number 10 sort of closer to the striker at the start of this season. Is is he an option, like getting your better players on the on the pitch? And Chris Gorin has said he likes to play in a two up top.
Speaker: I mean, I think he's technically good enough to play there. We have not seen enough of him tactically to make that call because I think bringing someone on to play as false 9-10-9 hybrid, whatever you want to call it, for the last 15 minutes of a game where you're desperately chasing as the opposition drops back is very different to kind of nil-nil playing against a mid-block, particularly as well if they identify that as a potential weakness and you essentially then... you could be looking at a 3v2 in the middle for the most part but then norwich out of possession pressing a 4-4-2 anyway don't they so i don't think it would be the worst thing off the ball i just worry that they might be a little bit lighter on the ball in that area but then again they have been light there for most of the season no matter who they've played so roundabout way of saying yeah do you know what give it go what's what's the worst that could happen at this point It does feel a little bit like Clement needs to stumble upon his best 11. Because I don't think, like, we don't know what it is, and I'm not sure he does, because we've seen how much he's changed it. Like, just stumbling on an 11 that works, you know, a bit like when Farker found Stipey at the 10 behind Pukki as the number nine. Just through, you know, Jordan Rhodes' injuries and a couple of other injuries, just something that fall into our lap almost. It's funny you say that. I was thinking this against Southampton because obviously in 18, 19, it was Rhodes up front. Pookie kind of played off the left and then as a 10. And then ages, it felt like people were screaming for him to be a nine. And I thought to myself, imagine how well Chris Goran would do with someone like a Buendia behind him. I reckon he'd absolutely thrive playing with someone like that. I mean, I'm not sure there's a striker that wouldn't, to be fair, to love the Andy Buendia. I think I would. Yeah. think Ashley Barnes would have. Steady on. Ashley Barnes is not as good as Ryan. My quick question, does Vlad come straight back in?
Speaker: No. Yes. No, not for me, actually. did not believe I would say that when Grimmie was announced on on Wednesday night. No, I i agree. i think I think he's done enough. and More so that Vlad hasn't done enough. like if we If it was last season's Vlad in this situation, I'd say yes. But the reality is is that Vlad has been so under par. And I don't think Grimshaw did much wrong. I think the only thing he maybe will be disappointed with is against Southampton, the initial...
Speaker: ball in from the left wing. He could have maybe got a bit more on it, but that aside, really good with his hands. His distribution, I thought, was excellent playing through the lines as well when Mattson would drop deeper in particular.
Speaker: couple of really good saves against Southampton. I don't think you can fault him for the the shot that came in, rebound that was then tapped in, if that makes sense, because it's gone through bodies. It's taken a couple of deflections and he's still somehow somehow kept that out. But It does feel like Chris Gorin has sort of stolen all of his jumping juice, though, because he he barely gets like two inches off the ground when he's jumping for crosses. And that good save, his first good save against Sad Ampsen, did come from the fact he just stuck his hands up and watched the ball sail about an inch over his...
Speaker: fingertips, but then you got in the right position and saved the shot. ah to be To be fair, no, I was right behind that. He actually got a touch on it, it took it away from the player coming in. But I mean, so he probably should have caught it though. i got it Yeah, he's another He comes from the school of goalkeepers who I'm sure if you Google him is like six foot four, but looks about five foot ten. Oh, yeah. I'm going to Google his height. I did get Mickey McGovern vibes when he was facing up to that penalty. He's tiny. He does look very, very short. I thought exactly that when he was facing that penalty. then I remembered McGovern did save a penalty against Villa when we lost 5-1 or whatever it was. Yeah, that's true. He is according to Australia. He is not, is he? That checks out. That checks out. 6'1". How tall was Michael McGovern?
Speaker: Six foot three, I think. No, McGovern was about six three, I think. Yeah, six three is correct. so he's two inches shorter than Michael McGovern. I mean, I, so I have stood next to Michael McGovern when I worked at the club. And you were tall that? And he is not, and I am Wes's height and he is not six foot three. There is no way he is six foot three. Dan, it's an illusion with Wes. He's actually six foot nine. so
Speaker: Yeah. No, sorry. to Again, roundabout way of saying i wouldn't I wouldn't put Vlad back in. I'd put keep Grimshaw in for Charlton at least. But then it does feel like at that point you are kind of waiting for an excuse to go, right, out you go, Vlad back in. so Grimshaw was our best passer yesterday. He probably had better than 50% pass completion. Stick him on the wing instead of Mahovo. Why not Yeah. ah Right, Dan, prediction. Sorry, Mattson was our best at i with 79%, which was, well, apart from our centre-backs, we obviously just pass it to each other a lot of the time. Yeah, stat pad, basically. Predictions, Dan, for Saturday?
Speaker: We're going to keep a clean sheet and we're going to win one mill and it's going to be horrific.
Speaker: Zoe? 5-1 to us. To Charlton. Yeah. Whoa, whoa. this is This is the biggest sign so far. I've had a crime not crisis of confidence. Go on, Steve, are your thoughts?
Speaker: I'll mirror Dan's 1-0 just because I have to believe we can win. I think it's i think it's a massive game. I honestly do. ah i Maybe, if not for our season, then for Big Phil because there are going be many better chances over the next few weeks to win than this. I was going to say because we've gone from conceding five to four, skipped three to two to one to none from open play but from a penalty. So surely the next in line is a clean sheet surely not an own doll oh god we're gonna go through that first haven't we grimshaw og like when who was it who beat us preston was it who beat us despite not having a shot on target because i'm gonna go one one
Speaker: me i'm gonna go one one A bland 1-1, a really boring 1-1. Bland. Bland. And that leads us on to Kenny, Other Business. Just one thing from me. Norris City women lost 2-0 at home to West Brom today, and it was their first loss of the campaign at home. Anything for Kenny, Other Business from you guys?
Speaker: Just a quick one. ah We did talk last week, I think, about... Maybe it was Liam Gibbs slash Tony Gary Springett slash Eurasek, or bringing the ah dressing room camaraderie all along.
Speaker: Liam Gibbs is back. He's injured, guys. So maybe that sparkling personality is what we need to get going. Well, he was there in the dugout on Saturday,
Speaker: and It's a slow burner. It's a slow burner. we've just illuminated someone else and we now know it's either Eurosec or Tony Springer. It's like guess who for charisma. God, if it was Eurosec the whole time. Or Shane Duffy. What if it was Shane Duffy the whole time?
Speaker: And he was in the away end at Sheffield United, which is one of Norwich's best performances of the season. So I mean, one of our most recent wins. That adds fuel to that fire, doesn't it? My goodness. Anything else, guys?
Speaker: We've had a couple of questions. Howard Green has asked, at what point do we start caring that Phil Clemon has no hair? oh feels I mean, that wasn't an option that Craig presented with us. Clement's boldness as being the reason for our downturn.
Speaker: Are we talking the answer to our issues is a wig? Maybe. Or a hair transplant? It could be a bold choice. what wig would What wig would best suit him? Is it the Farka wig that, um forgive me, I can't remember who, did a brilliant job asking AI to put Farka's hair on Clement's head. But maybe it's that.
Speaker: Could be. Pin it on the dressing room wall. Yeah. It's like that Shira meme, isn't it? Imagine if he just turned up to match the day with a full head of hair and no one said a thing. Do we have a plan for that? Maybe Wagner hair, but not David Wagner, but the Wagner from The X Factor about 10 years ago. yeah Probably longer than that, who had ah long, luscious looks.
Speaker: I think that's the way to go. oh yeah i see I can um just imagine him with his skinny jeans trying to be down with the kids. I can imagine him having a what is known as a meet me at Mackey's haircut, which is like the taper fade and like the big bushy curls on top. You know, I think that's where he would want to go with it.
Speaker: Chris Goran's hair basically. Literally is that. Maybe Chris Goran could lend him his hair for a few weeks. Just see how it goes. Just cut it all off and stick it back on. um There was one other question as well. I mean, this might be what to take offline from Jonathan Parker.
Speaker: Will you keep recording the podcast if we're relegated to League One?
Speaker: new I'm up for it guys are you? We might win some games if we get rid the games on a sunny Sunday so yeah looking forward to chatting about Bromley away that would be quite nice actually would nice to a few more 3pm kick-offs as well which which we don't have now until December no 3pm games it would be more work though because of a lack of international breaks so there is that I really miss the international break, don't you? I thought it was nice. England were good.
Speaker: Yeah, come to think of it, it would also be us playing Arsenal under 21s as well in a competitive game, which is just the most embarrassing thing possible. We're not doing a pod for that. No. ah And it was just nice to not see, because I didn't watch or anything, but that top itch was back for the under 21s on Friday as well after that. a long, long, long time out. And who knows? Maybe maybe he's the answer to our prayers.
Speaker: didn't he Did he play in the 10 under Clement at one point? Then he got injured against Manning. And then he he got... Oh, God, yeah. And then it's because he then did his leg halfway through Clement's second game, didn't he so hey, maybe he is the missing piece.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, so I guess he started both games under Clement he's played in. So Clement obviously saw something in him. No, yeah. did I'm going to have a look at you started at Birmingham now, actually. I'm very think anyone was fit, were they? Well, to be honest, the the way, the speed at which we bring injured players back in, we should be seeing him a sort of March kind of time. So I look forward forward to that. Just after Mattson's done his ACL. Oh, my God.
Speaker: he did He did start against ah Birmingham with Kenny McLean in the middle and then against Oxford. That was when he knackered his ACL.
Speaker: Yeah. Can anyone remember? I was having very vague... flashbacks to the clement bleep test um and i've i remembered top itch in the bleep test and i couldn't remember if i remembered him because he was very bad at it or because he was very good at it um and can anyone recall well i haven't got his numbers to hand mate i'll be honest with you but I feel like if he was very bad at it, he wouldn't have started. Yeah, true. I feel like it was like him and a and maybe Jacob Wright. Didn't Jacob Wright do really well in it or something?
Speaker: I feel like there was a couple of them at the end, and I feel like maybe one of them was Topic, which, you know, not expecting him to do to win it right now. Imagine if he did with his own crutches, basically. Yeah. He was up against Jeffrey Schlupp and Shane Duffy, though, so, you know. ah Easiest paces ever.
Speaker: Well, I think that's it for this episode of OTB and Norwich City Podcast. A big thank you to Zoe Morgan. Thank you, Ryan. We've got through it, even though it's a Sunday. Yeah, and we were hoping for a tight 45. We've gone for over an hour.
Speaker: Yeah. ah Thanks to Dan Brigham. Thanks, Ryan. Thanks all. And Steve Sanders. Thank you, Ryan. Maybe Sundays are the new Mondays. Quite enjoyed that. I did too, you know. i might be We might be on our own and saying that, but if nothing else, Steve, we can come back next Sunday. Yeah, Zoe looks like she wants to kill me right now. If you have enjoyed this week's episode, please leave us a rating on your podcast player of choice and follow us on Instagram. We're on there as at otb underscore pod underscore NCFC. And as we mentioned earlier, we are on Patreon and Substack 2 as OTB, a Norwich City podcast. Until the next one, never mind the danger.
