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150 Leonie Swann | Cosy Crime Author
451 Plays2 years ago
International bestselling cosy crime novelist, Leonie Swann is on the podcast this week to chat about her latest english translation, 'The Sunset Years of Agnes Sharp', the differences between German publishing and UK publishing and her approach to discovery writing. (Photo by R. Barba)
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Transcript
The Importance of Writing and Plot Holes
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, a spicy question.
00:00:02
Speaker
I love it.
00:00:02
Speaker
Because the writing is sort of everything, right?
00:00:04
Speaker
You can fix plot holes.
00:00:07
Speaker
So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this.
00:00:12
Speaker
So it's kind of a gamble.
Introducing Lainey Swan and Her Book
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast.
00:00:17
Speaker
Today I'm very excited to be joined by award-winning international best-selling author Lainey Swan.
00:00:24
Speaker
Hello.
00:00:25
Speaker
Welcome.
00:00:25
Speaker
Hello.
00:00:26
Speaker
Good to be here.
00:00:27
Speaker
Thanks for coming.
00:00:28
Speaker
Before we get onto anything else, I have to get it out of the way.
00:00:31
Speaker
Your latest publication, which is the English translation, The Sunset Years of Agnes Sharp, may well be my favorite cover and sprayed-edge edition of any book I've seen this year.
00:00:44
Speaker
It's so pretty.
00:00:45
Speaker
It is very beautiful.
00:00:46
Speaker
I've never seen the whole spreadges thing with these sprayed edges.
00:00:51
Speaker
It wasn't really on my radar that it's a thing, but it seems to be quite popular at the moment and having my own books off.
00:00:58
Speaker
It's nice, yeah.
00:00:59
Speaker
It's so cute.
00:01:00
Speaker
I love the turtles just coming up the side of the pages.
00:01:03
Speaker
It's so beautiful.
00:01:04
Speaker
Yes, and obviously the turtles are quite a...
Delving into the Plot and Origins
00:01:08
Speaker
big feet of the book so it's nice to have her prominently placed yes yeah yeah why don't you tell me and everyone listening a little bit about the story itself and what happens in the book well the first scene you encounter Agnes looking for her dentals which has somehow gone astray and you sort of she's walking through the house looking for her teeth basically and getting more annoyed and while she does that we learn a bit of
00:01:37
Speaker
about her house share for the elderly, decrepit and unconventional and unusual people, very eccentric elderly folks, very elderly.
00:01:49
Speaker
And they've decided to just forego the usual go gently route and rather do their own thing in this country.
00:01:57
Speaker
house and then they've got a knock at the door and there's a policeman announcing that the neighbor has been brutally killed and you'd usually expect that to be bad news but actually the Agnes and her friends are quite thrilled by it after the first shock because they feel like actually since we've got a dead body next door you might as well be able to pin the dead body we're currently hiding in our shed on the perpetrator as well so that's the um
00:02:26
Speaker
set out and from then on they obviously to pin something on somebody you've got to investigate and know who to pin it on so they get drawn into this whole murder mystery and they've got a very very unconventional approach yeah and they've got tortures which doesn't play a crucial rule in terms of participating but nevertheless the heart and the center of the whole house share project
00:02:51
Speaker
Well, it's a brilliant and funny premise.
00:02:55
Speaker
Am I right in thinking, so it's come out this year, The Sunset Years of Agnes Sharp, but was the original version, which was in German, did it come out in 2020?
00:03:08
Speaker
2020, yeah, so it's pre-Richard Osman.
00:03:11
Speaker
Okay.
00:03:14
Speaker
And it had a different title in German.
00:03:17
Speaker
Yes.
00:03:17
Speaker
I mean, the way titles are in Germany is quite straightforward.
00:03:22
Speaker
So you want to communicate as much as possible.
00:03:24
Speaker
And they want to communicate of England as a setting, which is Sunset Hall.
00:03:28
Speaker
And then it's a murder mystery.
00:03:31
Speaker
So you've got murder in Sunset Hall, which is very straightforward.
00:03:34
Speaker
Yes.
00:03:35
Speaker
It's kind of what it says on the tin.
00:03:38
Speaker
Okay, so you live in the UK now, so you set the book in English, but it was written in your native tongue of German.
00:03:47
Speaker
Yes, because a German publisher wouldn't thank me for having to translate my books.
00:03:52
Speaker
They usually get the perfectly normal German version, and they wouldn't be keen on that.
The Art of Translation
00:03:59
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:04:00
Speaker
So I'm interested to talk to someone who's had kind of a couple of books now, widely translated.
00:04:05
Speaker
Publishing is already a fairly slow industry in terms of how long it takes a book to sort of actually end up on shelves and be available to read.
00:04:15
Speaker
But adding in those translations and the releases coming out in some case, I mean, in this case, three years after the initial release with the English version.
00:04:24
Speaker
Does it feel strange to sort of be like talking about it, re-releasing all over again?
00:04:30
Speaker
It is a bit strange because in a way, the moment I hand in a manuscript or finish work on a manuscript, I have gone through the editing process, it's sort of done.
00:04:38
Speaker
And in my head, it's a finished product.
00:04:40
Speaker
And I kind of forget about it.
00:04:42
Speaker
Even having it come out in the original language is a bit, it's already a bit obsolete in my head because I'm usually working on something else.
00:04:50
Speaker
So having to go back to something that was big, at the moment we're talking like three books ago.
00:04:56
Speaker
I've just finished the third book.
00:04:58
Speaker
book in this series.
00:04:59
Speaker
So it's turned out to be a little series.
00:05:01
Speaker
I'm still sort of with Agnes Sharp, which sort of helps to keep it fresh for me because in a way it's quite interesting to revisit it.
00:05:08
Speaker
And of course it's very interesting to work on a translation because that sort of
00:05:13
Speaker
makes you see your own text with new eyes.
00:05:15
Speaker
Because in a way, it gives me a chance to be a reader as well as the person who wrote it.
00:05:22
Speaker
Because obviously with the German text which I've written, I'm very, very familiar with that.
00:05:27
Speaker
I'm a bit too familiar to actually have something like a reading experience.
00:05:31
Speaker
But once you get the translation, you get the same story, but obviously the words are different, which actually makes me more of a reader as well.
00:05:40
Speaker
It can be quite exciting.
00:05:42
Speaker
Okay.
00:05:43
Speaker
So I was going to ask, is it kind of weird seeing your words reshaped into a different language?
00:05:49
Speaker
No, it's fine.
00:05:50
Speaker
Sometimes I actually prefer the English.
00:05:52
Speaker
There's some phrases that just work really well in English and wouldn't have worked the same way.
00:05:57
Speaker
And I work quite closely with my translator, Amy, and I'm very happy with the outcome.
00:06:03
Speaker
And it's quite exciting and
00:06:06
Speaker
It's also a test of your story because you can't sort of hide between clever words in the same way.
00:06:13
Speaker
So it is quite exciting to see what happens in translation.
00:06:17
Speaker
And I always feel that although some things are lost in translation, there's always something that is found in translation as well.
00:06:23
Speaker
So, yeah, quite a fun process, I find.
00:06:28
Speaker
Oh, that's so interesting.
00:06:29
Speaker
Yeah, because I often hear when it comes to translation that people do say like, yeah, it's lost in the translation.
00:06:34
Speaker
That's the thing you'll always hear.
00:06:36
Speaker
But yeah, I'd not thought about the fact that it's like, yeah, you find new things and there's new stuff that wasn't in the original because it just does something different in the new language.
00:06:45
Speaker
And sometimes, since I live here and obviously do a lot in English and think in English quite a bit, sometimes I sit here in front of my German manuscript and have just a perfect English phrase in my mind, just can't use it.
00:06:57
Speaker
Then I go to some kind of online dictionary and try to find something similar in German.
00:07:02
Speaker
There are moments when I feel really annoyed that I'm writing in German.
00:07:06
Speaker
So there's always something that works better and there's always something that doesn't work quite so well.
00:07:12
Speaker
But I think as long as you sort of stick to the spirit of a story, I mean, it's not like, you know, the text I write is God-given or something that cannot be changed.
00:07:22
Speaker
It's something, you know, in a way it's a random product.
00:07:26
Speaker
I mean, obviously I try to shape it, but there will always be some randomness in it and it doesn't hurt if this randomness gets jumbled out a bit now and then.
00:07:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:07:37
Speaker
So what, what is the process like?
00:07:38
Speaker
Like how involved are you in the translation?
00:07:42
Speaker
As you said, this, this book was translated by, um, Amy Bojang and, uh, is the three bags full has also been translated.
00:07:52
Speaker
Yes, by the great old lady of German English translation, Anthea Bell.
00:07:58
Speaker
That was quite exciting and a bit daunting.
00:08:03
Speaker
But she did a brilliant job, I have to say.
00:08:05
Speaker
So I'm very happy with the translation.
00:08:08
Speaker
I wasn't quite as involved.
00:08:08
Speaker
I mean, she did contact me occasionally by email.
00:08:13
Speaker
and asked me what I had in mind.
00:08:16
Speaker
But obviously she was a very, very experienced translator.
00:08:20
Speaker
There wasn't too much of a back and forth.
00:08:23
Speaker
And only later, I think a year or two after the translation had been published,
00:08:29
Speaker
finished and finalized i found out she was actually living more or less next door in the an adjoining village and all the stuff that had done it was done by email i could have easily done just by jumping on my bike and cycling for five minutes which was a bit yeah a bit of a shame i suppose so with amy was it much more of back and forth were you much more involved in the process yes um i mean so it's quite
00:08:54
Speaker
easier how it can be you know you get the text online you get all the comments and then you can sort of discuss it more or less using the same document so it's ideal and so I do pick out things that I have something else in mind here and she will ask questions and suggesting and sometimes there's also something that will be quite obvious for the German reader which
00:09:18
Speaker
is my initial target audience, but will sound strange to an English reader, something like little, I know, habits or things that I'm not used to, or pastries that might be quite normal fare in Germany, but might be a bit exotic to the English.
00:09:34
Speaker
So you just change a pastry rather than, you know, make a big deal out of it.
00:09:40
Speaker
And I'm very flexible.
00:09:41
Speaker
I just want to
00:09:42
Speaker
the best reading experience and if there's jarring stuff, I think sticking to the original at all costs doesn't really work for me because to my mind, what's the most important thing is sort of creating that illusion, that sort of reality for the reader and whatever it takes really to make it as vivid and as sort of unobstructed as possible.
00:10:07
Speaker
Yeah, it's about the reader's experience, not sort of like staying exactly true to the original.
00:10:13
Speaker
Yes, it's not about sticking to my text, because, you know, what's the point of sticking to my text if it doesn't do a good job at telling a story in the other language?
00:10:22
Speaker
So, yeah, very open to changes.
00:10:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's not worth treating it as like an academic proof or like a scientific proof of something.
00:10:30
Speaker
No, not at all.
00:10:31
Speaker
I mean, I have to say the German publishing can be a bit like that.
00:10:35
Speaker
So it's all about inspiration and the muse and this full stop has to be exactly here.
00:10:41
Speaker
And so there can be a bit of an obsession with the text beings of this book.
00:10:49
Speaker
all important thing whereas I feel like in the Anglo-Americans of tradition of narration it's more seen as a work in progress or a product or as a craft that sort of can be honed and can be improved upon and that's very much more my line of thinking I mean I always feel like I'm
00:11:10
Speaker
things should be just you know in a way flexible and just do their job rather than being that thing for it's you know being there for its own sake yeah yeah yeah that's true I'm interested then um and you touched on it a little bit before but you've published six novels and am I right in thinking it's just your debut three bags full and and this one so far that have been translated into English
00:11:38
Speaker
Yes, that's right.
00:11:39
Speaker
Although there might be good news soon on the more translations front.
00:11:44
Speaker
So, yeah.
Considering Writing in English
00:11:45
Speaker
And I can already say that the second Agnes Sharp book will come out in the States, I think, next September.
00:11:52
Speaker
And I'm assuming there'll be an English publication as well in due course.
00:11:57
Speaker
So that is a certain and the rest is looking pretty likely.
00:12:00
Speaker
So, yeah, exciting times.
00:12:02
Speaker
Amazing.
00:12:03
Speaker
So you mentioned how, you know, you are with a German publisher first and foremost, and I'm going to guess that you also work with a literary agent in Germany.
00:12:14
Speaker
I do.
00:12:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:16
Speaker
Obviously your market is primarily, it starts in Germany and then kind of everything else is the secondary market.
00:12:22
Speaker
But you mentioned that sometimes you think of phrases in English or you want to write something in English.
00:12:28
Speaker
Is there a part of you that thinks it would be fun to maybe try writing something in English?
00:12:33
Speaker
It might be, although I feel that writing in German keeps my German fresh, which is quite valuable.
00:12:40
Speaker
After all, this is how I earn my keep in the moment.
00:12:46
Speaker
So that is an advantage.
00:12:48
Speaker
And also, I'm not quite sure how good my English writing would be.
00:12:53
Speaker
It would be something completely different.
00:12:54
Speaker
And I'm tempted to give it a go.
00:12:58
Speaker
On the other hand, I'm not sure whether I could be a judge of how the quality of what I do is the same way as I would be in German.
00:13:07
Speaker
So if I did that, I would have a lot of proofreader and people who helped me and
00:13:14
Speaker
And I think there might be an opportunity in it as well because not having it as my native language might help to avoid cliches and the pitfalls of language, stuff that just got drilled into at an early age.
00:13:26
Speaker
But on the other hand, it also opens me up to all kinds of awkward things that a native speaker might find jarring after all.
00:13:34
Speaker
So, yeah, I've been thinking about it cautiously, but as I said, cautiously.
00:13:40
Speaker
As long as the whole translation thing works, yeah, I...
00:13:45
Speaker
For now, I'll be sticking with the translation process.
00:13:49
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:13:50
Speaker
Would you ever, have you thought about doing the translations yourself?
00:13:55
Speaker
I'd never attempt that because I'm too married to the German text.
00:13:59
Speaker
I'm too close to it.
00:14:01
Speaker
I think I don't think out of a bottom as of my, and besides it's a huge skill.
00:14:07
Speaker
It's not only about translating the word.
00:14:09
Speaker
You have to see the whole context.
00:14:10
Speaker
There's a reason why people learn it and study it.
00:14:14
Speaker
And I, as a English speaker, as a second language English speaker, I think there'd be a lot of people who do a hell of a better job.
00:14:23
Speaker
I mean, I'm glad that I can be so involved in it, in the translation process, because obviously I have my ideas.
00:14:29
Speaker
And I think I do have a certain feeling of what works for my text and what doesn't.
00:14:34
Speaker
But to have the whole scope of really seeing all the options and choosing the best, I think that's something that Amy does a lot better than me.
00:14:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:44
Speaker
Translation is a real art.
00:14:47
Speaker
It's not just this word equals this word.
00:14:49
Speaker
It's this word within the context of this sentence conjures a feeling.
00:14:53
Speaker
And then you have to remember what you said, I don't know, five pages ago and whether something that might have been different in the original text, you translated the same way.
00:15:01
Speaker
And then you've got a repetition there where there shouldn't be a repetition.
00:15:04
Speaker
And it's a lot of work.
00:15:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:08
Speaker
And also, I think my own text would be the last thing I would attempt translating because I'm so close to it.
00:15:16
Speaker
There's a part of me, no matter how flexible I might seem, how flexible I want to be, there's a part of me who wants to stick with what I wrote.
00:15:24
Speaker
And
Writing Process and Crime Storytelling
00:15:25
Speaker
I think that is quite detrimental to the best possible translation.
00:15:29
Speaker
And it sounds like, like you mentioned before, you find kind of new things within the translation.
00:15:35
Speaker
And I imagine you probably wouldn't see those as you are, like you say, like kind of very focused on the original text, but like someone else coming in and translating.
00:15:43
Speaker
And then at that times when you see the translation draft and you think, oh, wow, that's a really cool, that's a really interesting way that they've done that.
00:15:50
Speaker
I really like that.
00:15:50
Speaker
Yes, and you go like, oh, this is a really good scene.
00:15:52
Speaker
It never occurred to me that it's worked so well.
00:15:55
Speaker
And you see with fresh eyes.
00:15:56
Speaker
It's quite a nice process.
00:15:58
Speaker
So, you know, I would deprive myself of that effect if I did attempt to translate myself.
00:16:04
Speaker
I think I leave things the way they are.
00:16:07
Speaker
I'm quite happy with the way things are going right now.
00:16:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:11
Speaker
And like you say, it makes you feel kind of more like a reader when you're reading it because it kind of breathes me.
00:16:15
Speaker
And I always can, you know, I have to sign it off.
00:16:18
Speaker
So in a way, that's enough control for me.
00:16:22
Speaker
So that's fine.
00:16:25
Speaker
Did, going back to the kind of like you sort of having your, your main business kind of operates in Germany, but you live in the UK, when you moved to the UK, did that, does that add any complications to the whole system?
00:16:38
Speaker
Not really.
00:16:39
Speaker
I mean, I'm quite a classic writer in the sense that I don't do much else.
00:16:45
Speaker
I sit here in my little study in front of a computer and I write stuff.
00:16:50
Speaker
I don't do an awful lot of the whole publicity things.
00:16:54
Speaker
Obviously, if a new book comes out in Germany and my publisher wants me to do a reading tour, I'll do a reading tour.
00:17:00
Speaker
I just have to step on a plane to do it, which is not ideal, but it's not a big deal either.
00:17:04
Speaker
And that happened once or twice a year.
00:17:07
Speaker
And apart from that, it's really the same process, whether I sit in Berlin or in...
00:17:12
Speaker
Cambridge doesn't really change the whole thing so um doesn't really make that much of a difference I mean I think it's one of the great things about writing as a job that you really can do it wherever you want to yeah and um yeah I mean like you said you were just down the road from Anthea when she was translating yeah I had no idea I thought she was someone had this romantic vision of her being somewhere up in the Scottish Highlands windswept and all that and
00:17:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:38
Speaker
There you go.
00:17:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:39
Speaker
And some other people might think the same romantic stuff about me.
00:17:42
Speaker
So there you go.
00:17:45
Speaker
Well, let's talk a little bit about your, your, your process.
00:17:48
Speaker
You said you are quite the traditional author, you kind of at home in your little space with just writing.
00:17:55
Speaker
When you, when you do have these ideas, when you start a new story, do you, do you plan it all out or do you just start writing and see where it takes you?
00:18:04
Speaker
I just started writing.
00:18:05
Speaker
I usually have some kind of core idea, something I want to try.
00:18:10
Speaker
In this case, it was like having some really inept, very doddery people investigate.
00:18:16
Speaker
Just finding the most inept investigators possible and then see where it takes you.
00:18:23
Speaker
So that was a core idea.
00:18:24
Speaker
And then I usually sit down and start with a scene.
00:18:28
Speaker
And initially it was a scene that sort of now forms the first chapter.
00:18:33
Speaker
I sat down and wrote that, you know, with little changes obviously, but that was more or less the start.
00:18:39
Speaker
And while I write, I discover my characters as well.
00:18:43
Speaker
So I don't have a very clear idea of my character.
00:18:45
Speaker
I don't sit down and say Agnes is sharp, has problems with her hip and is hard of hearing.
00:18:52
Speaker
I don't plan characters.
00:18:53
Speaker
I just go there and sort of,
00:18:55
Speaker
start with somebody, I've got a very vague idea who they might be and let's just let them do stuff.
00:19:01
Speaker
It's a bit almost experimental.
00:19:03
Speaker
I just drop them in a situation and see what they're going to do and what they're going to be up to, which makes it a lot of fun for me
00:19:11
Speaker
And for some reason that I don't quite understand, it works.
00:19:15
Speaker
I mean, it shouldn't be working really, but it always does so far.
00:19:19
Speaker
I mean, it's very hard not to panic because you're right and you have no idea where you're going.
00:19:24
Speaker
You just basically work yourself from scene to scene.
00:19:26
Speaker
And sometimes I have ideas of what I want to happen later in the book, like a landmark.
00:19:31
Speaker
I want to get them to this point.
00:19:33
Speaker
I want them to be at this house.
00:19:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:35
Speaker
and experience this at some point, but I've no idea how to get there.
00:19:38
Speaker
And, and it can be quite unnerving.
00:19:41
Speaker
Um, but so far it has always worked.
00:19:44
Speaker
You just have to hold your nerve and muddle through somehow.
00:19:48
Speaker
And, and in a way I find that, um,
00:19:53
Speaker
Writing that way gives me almost reader-like experience, and it also makes it less predictable, which for a crime novel at some point is going to be a good thing.
00:20:04
Speaker
And you can always go back later, you know, if you've got this character who really doesn't work.
00:20:08
Speaker
Just chuck him out later.
00:20:09
Speaker
It's not a big deal, really.
00:20:11
Speaker
It can be, yeah, the manuscript I just handed in, up to three months before deadline.
00:20:18
Speaker
I didn't know who the murderer was, which was a bit...
00:20:20
Speaker
stressful but you know it turned out fine and looking at it now it feels like I had planned it all along and even there's even stuff in the text I mean sometimes I go back and add things that will sort of foreshadow things obviously I do it but sometimes it's just there already and I feel like my subconscious must know a lot more about things than I do because it does it does work surprisingly well and
00:20:47
Speaker
Obviously, all the red herrings you got.
00:20:49
Speaker
At the point I write them, I don't know they're red herrings, so they tend to be on the more convincing side.
00:20:54
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:56
Speaker
I think it makes for a good reading experience if it works.
00:21:00
Speaker
If it doesn't work, it's just a jumble and it's bad.
00:21:03
Speaker
But you just have to avoid that stage.
00:21:08
Speaker
Because it's a whodunit set up, when you're writing it, you're allowing for every single character to potentially be the murderer.
00:21:18
Speaker
Yes, within limits.
00:21:19
Speaker
Try to keep an open mind.
00:21:25
Speaker
Just see where things take me.
00:21:26
Speaker
I guess that gives you the freedom to sort of, whether consciously or subconsciously, put all these red herrings in.
00:21:32
Speaker
Because the whole time you're thinking, well, it could be this person.
00:21:34
Speaker
It could be this person.
00:21:34
Speaker
It could be this person.
00:21:36
Speaker
And until something very specific happens, then it will rule out people.
00:21:41
Speaker
But it's just sort of something that will happen within the course of a story.
00:21:45
Speaker
And before that, it's just all possible the way it would all be possible in life.
00:21:50
Speaker
So I think in a way, I try to keep it lifelike.
00:21:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:53
Speaker
Only more exciting.
00:21:55
Speaker
That's really cool.
00:21:56
Speaker
Yeah, because lifelike can be pretty boring.
00:21:59
Speaker
I'm aiming for lifelike, but it's still exciting.
00:22:02
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:22:04
Speaker
Somehow finding a balance there.
00:22:05
Speaker
Yeah, and I know that a lot of crime writers, I mean, I once went to this forum and was in this discussion group with an Israeli crime writer, and we all got the question, what tips can you give the aspiring crime writer?
00:22:22
Speaker
And he sort of spurned up, first thing, you really have to plan out everything from the beginning.
00:22:27
Speaker
And I was like, okay.
00:22:29
Speaker
And I have.
00:22:30
Speaker
Yeah, I had answered completely, gave me completely opposite.
00:22:33
Speaker
So that must have been a great help for the audience.
00:22:36
Speaker
But yeah, it's just different approaches and they're all, yeah, there's many roads you can take, I suppose.
Advice for Aspiring Authors
00:22:44
Speaker
Yes, exactly.
00:22:45
Speaker
There's no right way of doing it.
00:22:47
Speaker
Before we get on to the final question of the episode, I'd love to pick your brain perhaps on what you just mentioned.
00:22:56
Speaker
Do you have a piece of advice that you would give to aspiring authors, not necessarily crime authors, just aspiring authors who are trying to break into publishing?
00:23:06
Speaker
Well, I mean, the breaking into publishing bit is quite different.
00:23:10
Speaker
I mean, there's one part about writing the best possible story that's sort of important and then sort of finding somebody who will see that story.
00:23:20
Speaker
This is the other bit and they're quite different in a way.
00:23:23
Speaker
I mean, writing the best possible story is just – it's a craft.
00:23:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:27
Speaker
I think it's really a question of trusting your instincts up to a certain point and doing what you really enjoy.
00:23:34
Speaker
Because I think that's the only chance the reader is going to enjoy it as well if you're really having a good time.
00:23:40
Speaker
I mean, obviously not all the time.
00:23:42
Speaker
The whole writing process is not a continuous party.
00:23:46
Speaker
Obviously, there'll be moments where you have doubts or where you struggle or where you can't find the right words.
00:23:50
Speaker
It's all fine.
00:23:51
Speaker
But generally, it should be a...
00:23:53
Speaker
enjoyable process because I think if it's torture from beginning to end, there's a fair chance it might be torture for a reader as well.
00:24:01
Speaker
Unless that's what you're aiming for, for some reason, that might not be the right thing.
00:24:05
Speaker
Yeah, I've heard that's how Charlie Brooker writes the Black Mirror episode.
00:24:11
Speaker
I don't know if this is true, but I was told that he writes the Black Mirror episodes standing up, walking around so that he's uncomfortable and that comes through in the writing.
00:24:22
Speaker
It's
00:24:22
Speaker
It depends on what you're aiming for, obviously.
00:24:26
Speaker
And since my book, that's got a lot of humor, there's a lot of, I mean, it might be black, but still there's a lot of funniness in them.
00:24:34
Speaker
And for that, I need a certain, if I don't find it funny, if I don't enjoy it, what chance do I have?
00:24:40
Speaker
And likewise, whatever you want to write, make sure that it really feels right to you.
00:24:47
Speaker
I think that's the only thing you can really...
00:24:50
Speaker
There's no one method that works for everyone.
00:24:53
Speaker
So it's more about trusting your instincts to a certain degree.
00:24:57
Speaker
But then there's the whole other long road, which means finding a publisher.
00:25:02
Speaker
And that is quite a different story, obviously.
00:25:06
Speaker
I think my core had an easy ride, I have to say.
00:25:10
Speaker
So I'm not terribly experienced with all the things that can go wrong.
00:25:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:14
Speaker
Basically, I wrote my first book and found an agent, which was a crucial bit.
00:25:21
Speaker
I had a few of offering it to publishers and then getting rejected, which was normal.
00:25:25
Speaker
It was perfectly what I expected to happen, so that was normal.
00:25:30
Speaker
But from then on, then I found this agent and then the unexpected started to happen, which was
00:25:36
Speaker
is that several publishers wanted it and there was a bidding war and all that in my first book.
00:25:41
Speaker
So, yeah, I think find an agent is solid advice.
00:25:46
Speaker
A fine agent you feel like really loves a book and is ready to work for it and to put up a good word for it and not just sort of – you want enthusiasm.
00:25:56
Speaker
What you're looking for is somebody who really gets it and enjoys it.
00:26:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:01
Speaker
And apart from a shed load of luck, I suppose, which is hard to find.
00:26:08
Speaker
But yeah, I think not taking rejection is too much too hard because rejection is a default mode of the industry.
00:26:17
Speaker
It's not necessarily something personal all the time.
00:26:21
Speaker
Yeah, it's just a normal response.
00:26:24
Speaker
And yeah, it shouldn't get you down too much, I feel.
00:26:28
Speaker
Yes, because there is a lot of luck involved.
00:26:31
Speaker
But I do like to think that the more you put yourself out there, the more opportunities you give yourself to be lucky.
00:26:37
Speaker
And also, I mean, obviously, if nobody likes it, it might be worth revisiting the book and seeing whether this can do a better job.
00:26:45
Speaker
I'm not saying that once you've written something, you have to stick with it at all costs.
00:26:48
Speaker
But yeah, likewise, don't be discouraged because some
Fun and Farewell
00:26:52
Speaker
people don't like it.
00:26:52
Speaker
Because there will always be people who don't like your stuff.
00:26:55
Speaker
That's the way the world works.
00:26:57
Speaker
Hang in there.
00:26:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:59
Speaker
Hang in there.
00:27:00
Speaker
I think there's a lot of brilliant advice in that.
00:27:02
Speaker
And that's, hopefully there's a lot for people to think about when they're, who is listening to this.
00:27:07
Speaker
And that brings us onto what is always the final question of every episode, which is, if you were stranded on a desert island with a single book, which book would you want it to be?
00:27:20
Speaker
Right.
00:27:20
Speaker
Well, that's obviously a cruel and mean question.
00:27:23
Speaker
And I thought about it a bit.
00:27:25
Speaker
And no matter what book I thought of, there's two problems.
00:27:30
Speaker
There's A, if I already read it, I sort of already know it.
00:27:33
Speaker
I know it's good, but I've already read it once.
00:27:35
Speaker
So that's not ideal.
00:27:37
Speaker
If I don't know it yet, there's a fair chance that I'll open it.
00:27:40
Speaker
I feel like it's just not for me, so that's not great either.
00:27:44
Speaker
So I thought it's a bit of a sneaky thing to do, I suppose.
00:27:47
Speaker
Something like the Romans of the Three Kingdoms in the original Chinese with all the stuff I need to look up the characters and work my way through.
00:27:58
Speaker
I mean, that should keep me busy for a while, I suppose.
00:28:00
Speaker
Something like that.
00:28:01
Speaker
It's
00:28:02
Speaker
Wait, so you'd be literally learning a language?
00:28:05
Speaker
Yes, the additional benefit.
00:28:06
Speaker
I mean, part of it, if I ever get rescued by the Chinese, I'd be appalled with my lack of pronunciation.
00:28:12
Speaker
But at least I could point at signs and tell them I want water or something like that.
00:28:18
Speaker
So, yeah, I think just in terms of keeping my mind busy, that's the best thing I came up with.
00:28:23
Speaker
The alternative would have been something like an empty book and a pen and something I could...
00:28:30
Speaker
But knowing myself, if the resource of pen and paper was limited, I'd never actually get myself to put something down on paper.
00:28:38
Speaker
So it would remain empty as a hopeful blank page.
00:28:42
Speaker
So that's not really ideal for me either.
00:28:45
Speaker
So yeah, big project ahead.
00:28:46
Speaker
That's a clever choice, I think.
00:28:48
Speaker
And The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, as far as I'm aware, is an extremely long saga.
00:28:53
Speaker
Yes, exactly.
00:28:57
Speaker
If you did manage to deduce how to read it, you would have a lot to read as well.
00:29:02
Speaker
I would definitely need some resource material.
00:29:04
Speaker
I mean, I couldn't just sit there with the characters and just make it up.
00:29:09
Speaker
I'd need some good dictionary-type things to look things up.
00:29:14
Speaker
But yeah, that'd be...
00:29:15
Speaker
That'd be a big project.
00:29:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:17
Speaker
I'd be probably wave through the first 25 rescuers because I'm not quite done yet.
00:29:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:23
Speaker
Just give me a few more months, actually.
00:29:25
Speaker
Thanks.
00:29:25
Speaker
Well, that's a cool, very creative answer.
00:29:30
Speaker
Very excited to know if you ever would manage to juice it on and be able to...
00:29:37
Speaker
Not speak the language, but you would at least be able to read it.
00:29:40
Speaker
It's a question of time, I suppose.
00:29:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:42
Speaker
Motivation, which would be there if there's nothing else around.
00:29:45
Speaker
I'm quite optimistic.
00:29:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:48
Speaker
Amazing.
00:29:49
Speaker
Well, thank you so much, Lenny, for coming on the podcast and telling us all about your writing and your experiences in publishing and everything.
00:29:56
Speaker
It's been really cool chatting.
00:29:58
Speaker
Thank you.
00:29:59
Speaker
And for anyone wanting to keep up with what Leonie is doing, you can follow her on Instagram at underscore Leonie Swan.
00:30:06
Speaker
And to make sure you don't miss an episode of this podcast, follow along on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook.
00:30:11
Speaker
You can support the show on Patreon.
00:30:12
Speaker
And for more Bookish Chat, check out my other podcast, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes.
00:30:16
Speaker
Thanks again to Leonie and thanks to everyone listening.
00:30:19
Speaker
We'll catch you on the next episode.