Transcript
Speaker: when I think about captains, I say captains aren't selected, captains emerge. And we started talking because I think the biggest mistake, in particular in high school athletics, is the captain is often either the best performer or the most popular. And neither of those I think should really define like if a captain is gonna lead, if a captain is gonna be a bridge between the coach and the culture that they wanna create for the team and or is the captain there to
Speaker: you know, achieve the mission or the goals of the team and help everybody else to get there. And oftentimes the best performer or the most popular, they not only could be the antithesis of that, but in my experience, sometimes they were the toxic guy that, man, you know, almost they weren't helping the team and maybe just because they performed well, but maybe they were hurting the team.
Speaker: Action. Are captains born or are they made? What does that word actually mean? Captain. And are you handing that title out for the wrong reasons to the wrong person? Welcome to the Captains and Coaches podcast. We explore the art and science of leadership through the lens of athletics and beyond. I'm your host Tex McQuilkin and today I sit down with Martin Rooney, best-selling author of Coach to Coach in High 10, founder of Training for Warriors, former USA bobsledder, and a coach who's worked everywhere from USA Army Rangers to UFC to your local high school field.
Speaker: We get into why captains emerge when they aren't selected. the difference between your best performer and your best leader, and why Martin says the coach is the real captain of the ship.
Speaker: We are not drinking from a fire hose. We are taking off in a rocket ship with Coach Rooney. Super excited. We were both speaking at the and NSCA Tactical Conference in Orlando and found some time to sit down for a very fast talking hour.
Speaker: If you like what we have to to talk about today, i encourage you head to captainsandcoaches.com. Check out the education tab up top. I got two courses there. One, why they're not listening. Leading the mental and emotional state of the individual, taking them from the defiant, resistant athlete and turning them into team leader, team captain.
Speaker: very fun course and second one's going to funishment that's leading the mental and emotional state of your team. Reframing discipline so they form, norm, storm, perform together rather than being resistant and butting heads for all the wrong reasons as you're aiming to discipline and a team falls apart.
Speaker: For those, captainsandcoaches.com for the course's education tab. of that With that, let's freaking take off with Coach Rooney for this awesome episode. Here we go. Ready, ready, and bring it.
Speaker: proposition that we were having a conversation before, does the team need even need a team captain? Yeah. So, hey, background on myself, I have coached at pretty much every level of athletics and competed in them all the way from youth sports all the way to, hey, U.S. bobsled team, right?
Speaker: And It is very interesting that even as a an athlete myself, in college I was a team captain. In high school i was a team captain. The sport was track and field. And we started our discussion where I said, man, I probably was a lousy team captain. I was really only interested in myself. It was an individual event, but nobody had ever explained the role or responsibility. But I definitely don't think of what I understand, maybe what a leader or a captain say,
Speaker: would do now, I don't think I did any of those things. And you know and I regret that. But at the same time now as a coach, ah we got it started off with an interesting discussion that in the last three years in particular, so a team school that I was honored to coach at, we won the North Carolina State Championship in track and field only a month and a half ago. And we didn't have team captains.
Speaker: And the year before that, we didn't have a team captain. But the year before that, we did have a team captain. And maybe it leads to the first thing that I will say, or what i when I think about captains, I say captains aren't selected. Captains emerge. And we started talking because I think the biggest mistake, in particular in high school athletics, is the captain is often either the best performer or the most popular. And neither of those...
Speaker: I think should really define like if a captain is gonna lead, if a captain is gonna be a bridge between the coach and the culture that they wanna create for the team and or is the captain there to,
Speaker: you know achieve the mission or the goals of the team and help everybody else to get there. And oftentimes the best performer or the most popular, they not only could be the antithesis of that, but in my experience, sometimes they were the toxic guy that, man, you almost, they weren't helping the team and maybe they just because they performed well, but,
Speaker: maybe they were hurting the team. And there are, we talked about it. There are great books. ah There's a great book called Captain's Class, which I in particular read that I really enjoyed, where it showed that, hey, you might have the superstar lineup, but you can't win it. But then with the addition of one person that can lead them the right way, you know, that's when championships happen.
Speaker: But again, back to... our first part of the discussion, and maybe this would interesting, is the first thing I said to you was, do you think you even need a captain? When when did the rule get made? You have to have a captain. Oh, wait, because a pro, somebody wears a c Now every team has to have a captain. And my advice would be they should emerge.
Speaker: If there isn't somebody that matches your kind criteria of what a captain should be, I don't know why you need to have one, because I believe the coach is the captain of the ship. But, uh, But u and I know I'm a fire hose right now, but ultimately, ah yeah, if you have one and they emerge and it's something great, bestow that honor, but also let them know what the responsibility is and be able to communicate that. Because i all all I ever saw was somebody would get the title, use the title on their college application, and didn't maybe make or do anything that went along with that role.
Speaker: Yeah, I've found that they default to what their representation of leadership experience has been, and that is usually high school football coach who's leading with shame and MF and everybody to get on the line or touch the line and do this or whatever happens at home. Yeah, or it's, hey, it's our biggest, strongest guy, and he'll be the guy that walks out. Like, if the team captain is just somebody that flips the coin at the beginning of the game, which is what it has, but it seems that's what we see, that – is not my definition of what it would be. Where, for instance, we talked about it. There was a guy, hey, his name is Alden. And this kid was an incredible leader. You know, he was a leader to our team. He was selfless in his pursuit to make other people on the team better, almost to a fault, which I think that is a challenge too, that, hey, yeah like as an athlete, you have to be selfish. It's difficult to find people that are so selfless that the good of the team is more important than their own performance. Yeah. But I saw things in this kid that he did it. It was he would lead by example. He would lead some of the warmups we did. But the story that always stuck out in my head the most is he was competing, trying to go to the States.
Speaker: And we had a kid that was just such a natural talent. Right. But not a leader. Right. But such a natural talent. And this kid. wrecked his shoes and Alden said, what size shoe are you?
Speaker: And took off his shoes and gave that guy his shoes so he could still compete in them. And I'll tell you what, that day when I saw that and I told that kid that, I don't know if I could have done that. Right? When I was, i like, as a high school kid, that that now this guy could take my spot, beat me out, get whatever else.
Speaker: But it was for the good of the team, and it was the right thing to do. And there were there were so many leadership moments from that guy. it was easy to not only call him our team captain, but, you know, but there wasn't a selection. It was he evolved into that. Right? But then...
Speaker: Like I said, it was also the experience of some of our best performance performers. If we would have put them given them leadership titles, it probably could have destroyed the entire culture of yeah what we did. And then we didn't do it. And and i remember an interesting meeting, like because it was the coaches were like, well, who are our team captains? We've got to pick our team captains. And I remember being like, why do we have to pick team captains? i don't think there's one person here that can lead according to what we want to do. Then we'll be the captains. And we ended up winning a state championship. So It's pros and cons. Did anyone emerge throughout the season?
Speaker: I would say yes. it was seed for next There were people that emerged...
Speaker: that really, that did step up. But even then, like when I envisioned what a captain is or like, sometimes like we talked about, and this is the stuff you're working on. i don't I think if we were to talk about nature versus ner nurture, I think somehow this leadership or this who this person is, whether your categories, like you said, um you know criteria, emotional intelligence, ability to inspire, i you know i think some people have it. you know Of course, could it be a learned skill? Yeah. But if you're gonna try to make some toxic toxic individual into some leader. You don't have enough time to do that and you probably don't have the skill set to do that. And you're probably not going to change people psychologically. So I would say people emerged as, you know, like in positive ways, but nobody ever, I wouldn't give up the reins to our team anyway to,
Speaker: to trust them for that, right? Like, ah as a 15, 16-year-old kid or something, that probably has zero training in it, and we didn't have the time to invest in a master class of what it would mean for you to be a captain for this team.
Speaker: but who You know, that wasn't where we were spending our energy. Yeah. And you got balance practice and performance performance and focus. Then layering on the leadership. So that that's what I do aim to highlight is moments, every single practice as a moment for counting pushups during the warmup or leading the stretch. Or even the the the huddle at the end or whatever. But here was yeah here's what got very interesting, though, is ah Yeah, it's I've spent my life in athletics.
Speaker: I've spent my life learning and and gaining knowledge to to. Hey, what was the ultimate goal was to win, right? Like to succeed. And I don't think any 15 or 16 year old kid is going to be better at that than maybe the the coach, too. So it is also what would we define it as? I get it example of maybe their hard work, their motivation, them to to lead and cheer people on or maybe to be in there and huddle them up at the end. But.
Speaker: Like, but we weren't reliant on like, hey, I'm going to go take practice off and they're going you know, now some kid's going to do it or whatever else. So because you see that too, right? In some sports, there'll be captain led practices or, you know, coach can't be there. So captain leads. We don't in the stuff that we did, we didn't have that. So it wasn't like.
Speaker: Hey, you know, I guess football, I know, I think they have some of that stuff where, and that wasn't where I was investing my time the last bunch of years, where it was never like kids are going to go run a captain's practice. So, hey, maybe in those scenarios, not only do you have to select somebody, but they got to be really sharp at organizing and leading. But again, I think, you know, slippery slope, right? Yeah.
Speaker: So the aim and another thing I... aim to hand off to coaches, a define, model, shape, and reinforce. So that could be my sports-specific skill. And we do that when we're demoing.
Speaker: And if they do good, we reinforce it. We're shaping with our coaching cues. Aiming that same with leadership. So define our expectations, even if that's showing up on time, making sure the water's filled, et cetera. Those then become what we hold the kid accountable for.
Speaker: that's an opportunity for him to hold someone else accountable for. And yeah so there can be little little leadership moments. That's what I'm getting at. Like this was the stuff where this kid stood out. and It's who's there first. It's who stays after. It's who ah I don't know, the patience, the, you know, the ability to like, hey, biggie would be, hey some kids are really fooling around for somebody for somebody to have the guts to be able to say, hey, take it. You know, hey, man, this isn't how we do it here. Right. Which, again, i call that culture versus leadership, but somebody that stands up for it, a leader within your culture. But again, that idea, right? Like, because until we talked about it, everybody's heard the word captain. Everybody, you know, almost expects that every team maybe should have one. And we're talking, you know, it would be little team, you little kids and they, know, who's the team captain where I do think that, you know, this is stimulating me where I think it it warrants if we're going to have this title or this idea. Well, I don't think people have
Speaker: appropriately defined it, right? And then how do we create it to make sure that the job is done right? Exactly. And then there's certainly- See, there's his PhD program right there. That's what I'm aiming to. The captain's class highlights professional teams, which is awesome. There's so many good lessons in there.
Speaker: But that's what I mean. Yes, see I'm still looking at from a different space where, hey, ah at that high level, there are examples you can always pull, but that's not the real world, right? Like these are the the genetic freaks of freaks. you know And the book was about the best teams on Earth of all time, too, where it's so yeah unique.
Speaker: that as interesting as it was, when you really get down to college or high school or wherever, like somebody's got to, and not only that, but that guy emerged. So the kid I was talking about that was our captain is now the president of his fraternity in college. So in a weird way, that captain's class book could have been that there's this guy that's always been this leader and now that he's made it to that level and then he is there and he has all those skills, whereas that's a diamond and, you know, or a needle in the haystack where, but how could we make captains or is it possible to create them and understand the role? This is stuff I don't think anybody is paying attention to at the lower level. All the between the whistle stuff. Nope. And they assume, or your quarterback, you're going captain. Yeah. And he may be a more quiet reserve kid.
Speaker: Or he may be all about himself. Or he may be, like I said, or he can be a toxic individual or he can hate half the kids on his team. Or have the support watch this one, and this is very important, or half the team hates him. yeah And it's like, and now you made him the leader?
Speaker: Like, that'd be a bad choice. That'd be like saying, who's the person in our, you know, in in this area that everybody hates the most? Let's make them the leader. Like, that's the fastest way to destroy your culture. So, yeah, I think, if anything, one thing I'm pulling out which I feel we did a good job of was, number one, if they have emerged and you really have this great feeling of what you want it to be, select that person. But if there is no person, don't select one by default just because you you think you gotta have it. I don't know where that rule ever happened, right? And and if you're a coach, you better be crystal clear
Speaker: If you're even gonna dare to call somebody a captain, how do you define it? what are the What are the attributes you need that person to have? And how are you gonna be willing to assist to make those happen? Because same thing, like it can't be, oh, he's the captain, so now he'll run the warmups or he'll he'll go get the water. Like, dude, is that his job now? You know what i mean? Because if this person's trying to be a good athlete, and i have now I wouldn't want that role, right? but Yeah, so, i yeah, it's it's making me think like, hey, we just jumped in on this. So this isn't a ah topic I've had an ability to, if I gave it a lot of thought, maybe I'd be more clear on those pieces. But I do think the biggest takeaway you can get is, hey, if you're even gonna dare to have one, number one, why? And then if there isn't anybody, i would say, then coach, you're the captain, right? Like, you know, and, ah and, or are you gonna invest the time
Speaker: into that position. So for instance, I run organizations. If gonna make a person a leader, I have invest a lot of time into that person for them to understand that and continue to develop them so they can do their job well.
Speaker: I don't think that happens in high school athletics. They'll like, you're the captain. Captain never does anything. They get to call themselves the captain. They put it on their college resume, but like, what What did it change? But like I said, but we did have one year where it did. But here's the interesting part was the year we, the two years we went captain-less, we had more successful teams than the year we did. Now, so many variables there, who the kids are, what we did. But I would also say the argument of the captain's class book was as if when this right captain went into place, that's when they really started to win. That was the thesis of the book where, uh,
Speaker: We did the reverse and won when we didn't have, you know, we didn't have to name one, but it was high school athletics versus highest level athletics in the world. So, yeah.
Speaker: Where you said the the the student athlete who now went on to go be president of his fraternity. Yeah. The confidence that sport, he gave him so many leadership reps every single day.
Speaker: And then he then emerged. But what I'm saying is this is the interesting part, right? Nature versus nurture. we always have that conversation with an elite athlete like hey are elite athletes born or are they made of course i think there's a combination of both but what i would say is hey when you want to talk about high level athletics and and i never take that lightly i've i have trained olympic gold medalists i have trained ufc champions uh in many cases for a certain sport, you're born to be there. If Michael Jordan's 5'2", he's not Michael Jordan, right? Hey, can you be can you be five two and be a tight end in the NFL? No. No, so there's a genetic component that has to happen, and then you gotta develop it.
Speaker: What I would make the argument is, this kid, you're saying, oh, he got leadership reps. What I'm saying is, this kid was a leader, and just did what he does, because that's who he is, and now he's doing it again, and he just keeps emerging as a leader, right? Like, that's that emerge or develop.
Speaker: I think we could educate kids of what it is and maybe they could aspire or learn to be a better leader, but man, at least in my experience there, there are some there are natural gifts like EQ, emotional intelligence. Yeah, maybe it was his upbringing, maybe it was his parents, like who knows? But somehow that what I was trying to say is this kid had something, you saw it. we we were still We're still talking about him now. like So the coaches are still talking about this kid years later and yet now he's in leadership roles.
Speaker: as he continues to move on, I'm saying it's not an accident, right? And and whether, chicken or the egg, right? you know Was it he got leadership reps and now he's good or he had leadership attributes and and then he used them and now he's there. yeah So...
Speaker: Yeah, been a part of high school teams, small towns, so you see these freshmen come in that eventually become the captains. yeah And they always, always look up to the seniors like they are gods. yeah they are gods And so it's how were they treated as freshmen inevitably becomes how they're treated. And this is on the lacrosse field, but also the football field.
Speaker: So a lot of those bad habits from. oh Yeah, they get they get sent down. Well, that's what I was saying is we I would never have rewarded somebody with that title. Like I think, hey, that's something to say too. If you're going to be team captain,
Speaker: man, there's an honor in that, there's a standard in that, there should be expectations in that, and ah and definitely not to abuse it, you know, like, because, hey, there's a lot of, hey, there's hazing, there's there's things, and like you said, you see how it would trickle down if you did it wrong, right? So there's so much responsibility that goes with that, but ah but definitely, um I would never have rewarded some of our best performers with that title, which would be the common mistake that people make because of exactly what you said is I felt they were still some of the kids we were trying to remove the toxicity from the team from, that if then you put them in a leadership role, it shows you as a coach, you're super weak as a leader. yeah And you've just said to those freshmen, this is the the behaviors we value. Maybe you're gonna keep a to culture of toxicity forever, right? So, so the you know, a lot of interesting things if you're a coach listening to this,
Speaker: on, hey, number one, I hope we made you aware of, don't just choose a captain by default, and the default shouldn't be popular or best performer. um Number two should be, you should have a standard set in your mind of at least what that means, and a a set of expectations and what the role entails, and it can be a role that they can lose. And and then three would be, and definitely,
Speaker: You don't have to have one, you know, but if you say you do have to have one, man, don't make the mistake of putting the wrong person in that position because you could you could potentially, in particular, say high school sport or something, be negatively influencing your team for a four-year cycle as a result, right? Like you said, because the freshman kid that idolizes the toxic pump is going to that's they're gonna They're going to aspire to be the next punk.
Speaker: And there's potential that kid believes about themselves, whatever this jerk is telling them about their performance or personality or something. Yeah. Well, and like I said, too, man, the concept of hazing, the concept of, you know, there's breaking people down and there's building them up. And that's, you know, which leads to, hey, you want to hear an interesting story.
Speaker: things sometimes that I think about, and athletics is my life, it's where I've spent all my time. But watch this, hey, is athletics a good thing? Is it good for people? Yeah. And the answer is it depends.
Speaker: It can be the worst thing. It can become the most horrible stuff and the worst experience in somebody's life that leads to, you know, trauma and injury. And, you know, there's so many things, you know, cause I think the the quick answer, if you ask anybody, oh, sports are great. And sports builds character. And sports is a lifelong skill. And it'll be, it'll create great, such great habits. And it's like, that's why I delve so much into coaching and culture. Because, know,
Speaker: I understood, hey, I had really bad experiences with coaches, and then I had great experiences with coaches. i had bad I've been parts of bad cultures and I've been parts of good cultures. And holy cow, that it it depends is the leadership yeah of a team and those expectations and standards and everything. And that's so important why we're talking about it. Because I always say, like, as a high school coach in particular, when we would go out there, the worst feeling in the world for me was...
Speaker: to watch somebody belittle kids or berate them or they've heard them or like or they had better kids than we had and we beat them because ours are better coached with a better culture and even though you want to win and that feels great, at night you you say to yourself, well but what about that kid and like where's their life gonna go as a result? Yeah, so on lacrosse we're on the same sides as the other team and we're sharing a substitution space.
Speaker: So I hear great and hear really toxic, horrible. Well, and scars. the Yeah, well, that's as you've made the mess that your mission, this captain's idea of mine was the coach.
Speaker: And what does it mean? And hey, you know, while we're talking about high high school athletics, I think it's the most important level or one of them youth and then high school to be a coach. This is where the kids are developed like, hey, hey, you can talk about the Chicago Bulls all you want or the New Zealand All Blacks guys. They're already superstars. They're already great.
Speaker: They're already highly motivated. They probably don't need much from you. And whoever's coaching them is not having as big an impact as the kid when they're 12 or 13 or 14, where they're going through the biggest developmental years their lives mentally and physically. And yet those coaches are paid the least, yeah respected the least. They're ones you never hear of. Like, hey, I you know i just i had the ability to coach at that team because I have all the other things I did in my where would never be able to do it. Because for 800 bucks for a 10-month season, yeah that's hard for four or five hours a day. Like that's really tough to ask anybody to do or you're going to get what you pay for, right? Or something. so
Speaker: So I do think if nothing else too, hey, if you're a high school coach, man, I respect you and I want to remind you how important your job is. but because you're going to have this massive effect for the rest of your life. But remember this too, it's thankless. And I always say you're not there to get pats on the back, you're there to give them because like, you know, you're not going to be the one that gets the glory, you know, when you do it.
Speaker: Coaching at all levels and now with the high school, I got to ask about parents. just because you've you've been to the top and now you're living in parents, they see you, they are grateful or they're not. yeah What's the what's and the evolution of parents about these different levels? When you hear the horror stories, i think I think parents are more involved in their athletes' lives than ever. I think when I was a kid, yeah, my parents, like, man, they they were working. I was a latchkey kid. they They weren't even at events, you know, versus now. Parents come and they're watching the practices, you know? and ah
Speaker: But I think what is very interesting, again, that goes back to culture. and communication. We were very great at having a lot of communication, whether it be via first meetings and orientations, but then emails all the time and constant communication. But I think what we built was a very high level of trust that, hey, we know what we're doing.
Speaker: So I don't think like, let's put it this way i don't think there was would be any parent that thinks they could coach these kids better than we did. And we yeah we have very high level results. But i've all I can also imagine And here's the cool part, too. We're talking about track and field. We're not talking about football. Like, because, coached high school football, too, and, you know, with state champion teams and and had so many luxuries to be around some cool stuff.
Speaker: Football is what are, say, a lacrosse is very more subjective. Track field is track and field. It's numbers. if if If you're not the top three fastest guys, you can't run in the race because we can only put our top three fastest guys. So no one...
Speaker: It's kind of like, here's the numbers, you know, can't argue. So I would say, man, where we were, we had our school did such a great job of communication that we I didn't experience any bad stuff. It was really cool. Like, so we had, you know, so it was great culture. Right. But it's also a coach is in charge of creating that. And we did that. So yeah I can only say it was really, really fun, but I'm really, really old now and it's been 30 years of coaching where, hey, there I can remember nightmare stuff too. so But I would say if you're a coach, of course you know the parents are going to be more involved than ever. If they are unhappy, they are going to bring it to somebody and try to maybe make you go away. You hear all this all the time. Like the joke is,
Speaker: When a kid, when you, cut oh, how about cuts? Like, so when we would hear things as cuts, but again, we were very lucky on it's cut and dry. Like, this is somebody we're keeping and you didn't make that standard. but ah But I think you have to be able to defend your position, but constant communication and getting everybody to understand who you are, what you know, and what you do can alleviate or eliminate a lot of those issues, right? Yeah.
Speaker: And I'll preface it with, I don't have all the answers, right? Like, hey, I've done a lot of things and and I'm spitballing from the hip. but ah But yeah, like that has been the stuff that's worked for us too. But again, I don't want to underscore ah
Speaker: the levels that I've coached. So I've been a speed coach in the NFL. ah Yeah, I think I'm qualified to coach high school. You know what mean? you know So there's a difference where, hey, if you don't have the educational background or the expertise, you know i ah I was also an orthopedic physical therapist. there's There's just so many things that are in my arsenal and in my toolbox Now, 30 years later that I realized this season, I was using all of them. and And then the coaching aspect and the culture aspect, which I speak around the world about to Olympic committees all the way down to organizations, that a coach is a composite of all of those things. And that was the magic, how it all came out. And they don't even see it, but that's how things went smoothly. And that's how...
Speaker: ah the successful results happened, but it was a combination of a lot of stuff, and it took me a lifetime to get it, too. So if you're a young coach coming up, you've got to continue to hone your craft. You've got to continue to learn, but not just in the area of the event or the technical sport that you play. You need to understand eq IQ, um you know, communication, culture, like this stuff we're talking about with captaincy, it's it's a lifelong pursuit and that's what it's been for me. And there's always another door that opens, which it's funny now. This is one today. It's, oh yeah, captain, I haven't explored this topic, which is what we're doing now, yet I've used it. And then, man, yeah, maybe I need to define that better so I can get better.
Speaker: Yeah. And... One thing I want to do with the guys is allow that autonomy to find and to find their own values and then help put them in a position. Yeah. So ah there's this is a business rule, but it's Tuckman's five stages of forming a team forming or forming, storming, norming, performing and mourning. Yeah. End of the season.
Speaker: So then within that forming, that's when the coach is the captain. You're leading. youre creating the standards, the the vision, the mission, the goals, like what we will accept, what we won't accept, yeah set the culture. And then some coaches get mad at storming and the fights, but that's actually the team coming together. Yeah, that's the healthy stuff where you're going to figure it out, right? And hey, that's where people get cut. That's where, hey some of the hardest decisions have to be made, right? Like,
Speaker: like you know and And hey, we have had that stuff. like There were years, and and teams throughout my history, and organizations or groups that had worked under me, sometimes getting rid of somebody was the best thing we could have done right for the culture, and you never recognized it. and And to sometimes do that shows your strength as a coach of what you will tolerate and what you won't, that it sends a very powerful message to everybody. So how do you present conflict to kids?
Speaker: Because often they're protected or we're trying to stifle this argument now. How do you allow it on your team knowing that conflict can be a good thing? Here's what's interesting too. we We talked about the parents, right? Oh, how, how have they changed right now? I don't even call them helicopter parents anymore. I call them snowplow parents. Helicopter parent used to always be circling, you know, and stuff. Now what I call snowplow is say there's a big mound of snow in the road. They're blasting it out of the way. So the kid just never meets any adversity. Like they just, it's always smooth. And that was the thing, right? It, uh,
Speaker: A great line I would say is the parent shouldn't be there to get the road ready for the kid. It should be to get the kid ready for the road. Like, hey, the adversity, of the challenge, this stuff has to happen. Yet this new generation, I'm noticing they're trying to make it that it never happens, right? like like that it Or it didn't happen. Like, wait, you cut my kid, I'll yeah i'll get you fired. Or you've got to reinstate them. And, hey, we had something like that even this season. Like we made a cut and and then the kid just kept coming and then the parents like come on, you know, and it's like do what part aren't you getting here, right? but ah
Speaker: But we talked about that with the parent but the kid has changed too. And in particular, because hey, you know again, generationally, I'm Gen X. ah Man, I know what I want. I know what I want to achieve. you know I'm very driven. And I had to learn quick. you know These kids would say, coach, why you yelling at us? you know And it'd be funny, because I'd be like, man, i'm dude, i'm I'm not yelling. like i'm I'm coaching right now. Or what I noticed the thing that has really changed is
Speaker: The kids, and again, it's my small perspective of the ones we had, but they did not accept criticism or feedback. If you said, hey, you know you singled somebody out, and hey, fix your arms, it could be better, and you'd be faster if you did this.
Speaker: they it they would shut down and it would be like, you just you just told me I'm horrible in front of everybody and you know everything else. And so I had to become more cognizant of how I delivered feedback. I had to be more cognizant of the relationships that I developed so they knew that they they trusted me. But one thing that I would always make sure that I got across all the time, even with my own children. So that was our part too. i'm also ah My kids were on these teams. That's why I was also there.
Speaker: and to And to be dad and coach is very, very difficult. But it's it was always a reminder that, hey, who knows a lot about this stuff? You do, coach. Hey, who ah wants us all to win? You do, coach. Hey, who cares about your performance and is only saying these things because I want you to be better? You do, coach. And then they get it, right? And then it's like, okay, so when I tell you this, I'm not yelling at you. I want you to be better. I want you to be the best version of yourself. And I would have to have those conversations, right? yeah And hey, it made me better. It made me more empathetic. But it is understanding that...
Speaker: this would be a neat thing to discuss too, is captain is gonna change generationally. Like what is ah what's a boomer captain, you know, versus, a you know, cause hey, that captain's class book,
Speaker: they're all from a different time. Like they're not millennials or Gen Z or you know whatever they call them. And maybe that's gonna, a captain is gonna be a very different thing and gonna require different skills. yeah I bet, you know when they were talking about the all blacks, remember, and it might be like, you know And you know, that's one of the rules, don't be a dickhead, was one of their tenets. If you ever read the book Legacy, which is a great book about leadership and what they did, you know and the other one was like sweep the sheds and they're going to lead and do their things. But the whole thing is screaming don't be a, you know that probably might not work
Speaker: in five years, you know what i mean? Because that worked then, like you could probably get in somebody's face and be like, you know you're going to line up, going this thing and they probably loved you for it, where now ah get you kicked out for that. So yeah, that could be also an interesting thing for you to look at is the stuff, you got to make sure it stays current because what a captain was 30 years 20 years ago, 15 years ago is probably not...
Speaker: That EQ part or the emotion part is gonna be very different. so and being More stuff for his PhD program right there. And being flexible, resilient. Yeah. Within that and understanding that there is a generational gap. Yeah, and there's a different expectation. See, that was the thing. All of our coaches, we were all in our 50s and all the kids are 15.
Speaker: fifteen we're skipping a couple generations. And that's why it's almost like sometimes we'd be like, am I speaking French here? But you don't realize, yeah, you are speaking a different language than they're speaking. And a coach has to be very aware of that. Like, what's their communication style? What I had to learn, what kid can I really push? And what kid maybe do I got to pull back? hey Yeah, like so a great line I heard and I use a lot is ah there's a fine line.
Speaker: the The distance is very short on somebody's back between a pat on the back and a kick in the butt, you know, and you got to know how to navigate that distance or you could ruin everything. Yeah, and that goes to show that you have social awareness and you're reading how your message is being delivered. Yep. and um And when you say reading, and I'm studying it. So every topic we've talked about, guys, my library is my most cherished possession. And when it came to diving into coaching, so that was a thing. Like, man, so many books on emotional intelligence, so many books on, ah you know, again, you you were talking about grit, Duckworth, ah you know, mindset with Dweck, like, you know, like, There's there's a library i I think I could build for each coach, even if it was 20 books, that each one would give you a piece, but you've got to know these pieces, right? And most people don't, right? Like they know X's and O's.
Speaker: And what I would argue is, no, you have to know who the X's and O's are, and then have a real toolbox of skills to be able to get them to, you know, because what is leadership? It's getting somebody to do something maybe they don't want to do and you've got to be really good at that. And...
Speaker: And a coach a a coach, maybe this is the other line, the coach is the ultimate captain. yeah Like the coach is the captain of the ship. like you know So if this was a boat, the captain's in charge.
Speaker: it's not There's also now a coach ahead of the captain. You see what I mean? So it is weird that in sport team, it's the coach and then there's a captain. and then the people, whereas I looked at it as more my ship, you know, the captain's in charge.
Speaker: There's times always remind them of whose ship they are on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaking of libraries, so Justin Cavanaugh, good pal, he gifted me two of your books, and I quote you all the time. Yeah.
Speaker: Coaching. yeah Taking people where they can't take themselves, that they want to go. or or How I define it is taking people... ah where they wanna get, you know, take somebody somewhere they wanna go that they can't get there themselves. And dude, that took 20 years to distill out. So watch this, a coach,
Speaker: That's what we do, right? You're taking somebody somewhere. Now we already talked about today, hey, you take somebody somewhere bad. Like you could, hey, like it happened to me, like I had a coach call me some pretty nasty stuff in front of some people and like, man, I hate, I still hate that sport today because I was so young and when that happened and this person obviously couldn't see what I could have been. So that person took me somewhere, but they took me somewhere bad. So the first thing is coach takes you somewhere.
Speaker: Like, where do you want to go? You want to go to a state championship? You want to be improve your performance? Do you want to improve your nutrition? Like, what is it? I should be there to take you there, but it's where you want to go. So that's the other part, right? Like, I think a coach has to be aware that, hey, there were a lot of kids on my track team. They didn't, they don't, they were just on the track team to be on the track team. Right. And then there were kids that wanted to go and get scholarships and go to college. And we made that happen in both cases. But you also have to understand that where do they want to go? Right. Like, yeah and then that they can't get there themselves. and And that's where your knowledge, your expertise, all the things that you've learned over that time, a 15 year old kid doesn't have that stuff. That's why you pour that in there. And they don't have the time to make all the mistakes you did. So as a coach, you're trying to avoid that. They can't do that without you. Right. And, uh,
Speaker: And that became, you know that was the genesis of the Coach to Coach book. like So I was teaching coaching courses all over the world. And somebody said, you need to write a book about these ideas.
Speaker: and And it was only because COVID happened that, man, you know if you haven't noticed, I have a little bit of high energy. i like to I'm gregarious. And man, when I got locked in my basement, that was the worst time of my life. And then I sat down. i was trying to get my daughter to play piano.
Speaker: And she wasn't practicing. And I said, you're never practicing. She goes, and you're never writing that book you've talked about. So then I said, what? And I put my computer out, I flipped it open and I just kept going until I had this book.
Speaker: Right. and And it's called Coach to Coach. I think it's a gift. to every coach, I think every coach should read it, but it's using stories and stories within stories, but to teach my greatest lessons. And yeah, it's probably the work that I'm most proud of. But then the sequel was High 10, which i don't know if that's the one yeah you had after that. And yes, that book did so well.
Speaker: Then I did a book about culture too, which was what I became, then I really did a deep dive into that and what did it mean and what is it? And I'll tell you what, writing those two this season ah because it was my daughter's senior year, and I really committed more than I ever committed before. I said, what would it look like if I did everything i've even talked about, written about? Because remember, it's always easier to talk about it and write about it than it is to do it. And I said, what would it look like if I gave everything I had? and And I did, and I felt like it was one of the greatest seasons I've ever been part of, not just because of the success that we achieved, but the relationships that I developed where, like last night, the kids are texting me, right? Yeah. And and it was pretty emotional because i there's this group that has been the last bunch of years together and they're all going off to college now. And they wrote something and ah in our chat and I wrote back and I was like, hey man, I hope you guys are doing great and and I just want you to do great things and moving ahead. And just want them to put a little heart by it. And ah
Speaker: If you would have seen us four years ago, you would have never thought me and those guys would be the friends we are, you know. so And that's coaching too, right? Like your your lessons hopefully are going to carry on for the rest of these kids' lives if you really understand the the value of what that role is. and you know Everyone's athletic career ends. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, it's going to be over, right? And that was the greatest gift that I had them. I think here's the thing. Every athletic career ends, and what you don't want it you know what you don't want it to end with, Regret. Like I think the worst thing that a coach could make happen for somebody is regret. Regret, they didn't perform well. Regret, they didn't love the sport. Regret, they didn't achieve the success they wanted. And that's all I did every day as a coach was to make sure, and here's the and here's the coolest part.
Speaker: Every one of those kids is gonna be asked someday, did you play a sport? Yeah. I was on track in high school. Oh yeah, how were you guys? Oh, we were state champs. And they can say that the rest of their lives. And that was the final gift that they all get that ah what I had worked so hard for, you know, to get across. So it was, yeah, super, super,
Speaker: cool, but again, reinforcing all the stuff that we're talking about and that the things I'm talking about, like here's a part guys, because I don't always have the empirical, proof but I've got enough anecdotal proof of my life, but the stuff I'm talking about, it works. Right. And, and I, yeah. And I know 20, 30, 40 years from now, they're not going to forget a lot of those lessons. And then, and then then if they step into coaching or parenting or leadership. No, that was the thing. Some of them are going to be that, right? And that, that could be a cool thing for your captain's stuff is,
Speaker: maybe your best captains will be your future coaches or the ones that wanna pursue that. And you might be able to use that as a avenue to get them excited about leadership role. Like, cause they might say, coach, i want be a coach like you someday. Oh man, then, hey, then you need to start stepping up here and here and here and here. And imagine they start doing it and then they are selected as a captain, get those leadership moments and And that's what I said, there were a couple kids that emerged this year that were doing those kind of things.
Speaker: and But we had already, there was no official title or anything at that point. But I think there are a couple kids that is what hopefully they'll do someday. Yeah, full circle moment. Had a kid who he was not selected. We had five captains.
Speaker: It was a lot. And he was twin brother left out. Wait, wait, wait. I'm jumping in right now. And guys, if you're going to pick it, you you don't need five captains or ten captains. Because now you just went so soft that, like, now everybody's a captain and then the title means nothing. And I see that a lot now, too. Like, everybody's got the C on their jersey. yeah and it's or Or they rotate it Every game it's another captain. Like,
Speaker: See, this is cool because there's stuff to dive in here because no one's defining it. And then now everybody's a captain and it means nothing or any week he can be the captain. And like, what? Now you're, wait, so you have leader, you're a leader for a week? Like, eh.
Speaker: Yeah, so the twin brother, he was left off. His brother was a captain. He was the sixth. And he was so, so distraught and sad. But then this is mentorship moment. And here he just graduated college, played in college.
Speaker: And now he's back to join the coaching staff because he's still involved with the sport. And it means so much to him in this moment. None of his other captain pals are coming back for that. But that could have been the thing that inspired him but to do that. Like I said, I will say,
Speaker: Having been selected captain in high school and college, you thought it was so cool, but even then I didn't understand it and I didn't value the position and I didn't make anybody better. And I do think because of the regret regret I have about that, it made me a better coach now, right? And it was interesting and I still didn't understand it. ah i I got a degree in exercise science at Furman University. I went on and got two more degrees, one in physical therapy, my master's at the Medical University of South Carolina. And this was one that really stuck out for me. And it'll be a great point for this captain's talk is they started giving out superlatives and there was most likely to succeed and there was most whatever and whatever. And I got something.
Speaker: But then they split before that. They were talking about this one. And it was it was the person that made everybody else better because that person was there. The person that elevated everybody else. And when I heard that, I wanted that.
Speaker: But I knew I was never gonna win that, because I was all about me. I wasn't, yeah, and and but I had never seen it valued before and honored before. And I remember after they gave it, and they gave it to the deserving person, then you're like, oh my God, yeah, this person was always so great, and they made everybody better, and and and and everything was better because that person was there.
Speaker: And I remember after that moment, I said, I wanna be that person, right? And that started me on my journey. So here's what I would say too is, as a coach, what do you value and what awards do you get? You know, you know it'll be the end of the year banquet. Well, if the end of your banquet's just best performer or fastest kid or most tackles or most yards or who was all conference, like you can't a lot of times control who's gonna get that.
Speaker: But if you also show that your culture values the best leader or the best person that made everybody together, we call it a spirit award, that, you know, the person had the best spirit. And this year we gave that out. and And the girl was so deserving of that and who she is. And I'll tell you what, that girl will be a captain.
Speaker: I'm sure of it this year, because now she'll be a senior coming up. And it it's almost like full circle we that one kid. And then now four years later, there is somebody that's going to super emerge as that.
Speaker: And, uh, But the whole thing is, but DCL, we're also showing we value it so that somebody else might be like that person that hears that and now they know what we want from them to aspire. So that could also be other great, whether you call it ah development of your captain or recruiting of a captain, it should be something. and hey, maybe imagine you've created this standard and people put their name in the hat for who wants to be it, right? A lot of times you just, I just got selected. and Nobody asked me if I wanted to be or yeah whatever else. It was, cause I don't know if if you would have said, hey, do you want to be, but here are all these things you need to be. i probably would have said no, right? Cause I wasn't ready then, but but there would be somebody who is, right? And yeah, another interesting thing, right? Like how do you, what do you reward or what do you value
Speaker: And if you could show the characteristics of the captain that you want, that might be a fast track for those people to start learning those things or exemplify those things too, which is cool. Another piece for his PhD. Yes. A trick i use it the youth to reinforce those behaviors is we give away practice balls every single day.
Speaker: So the three awards that we give away, team captain who showed the best leadership today, Then we have loyal forever, who's the best teammate? And then we have legend. Just bro, who's freaking legendary. They rose up everyone around them, not necessarily like the single individual leader or teammate.
Speaker: He made everybody better today. So then every single youth practice twice a week, we're giving away these, and kids want that. Yeah, well, and what you're talking about is forget the term might be reticular activating system or whatever else, but the fact that you're talking about it, the fact that they're thinking about it, then the next day they're trying to show how, well how can I do it or how, you know, so you've already shown you value it.
Speaker: You know, imagine if you said, Hey, who gives the most high fives is going to get something. Everybody be throwing high fives like crazy. But if you don't say it, maybe no one will. Right. And, and so do you see what i mean? That you're looking for opportunities when than because you value it, where I don't see people doing that. No, and acknowledging. And so that's what I aim to do with the coaching staff is like, we need to practice praise and praising, because what they receive now and view coaching as is they made a mistake. Yeah, and they're only- Yeah, and gonna yell that, yeah.
Speaker: of interaction with coach. Yeah, is bad feedback, negative stuff, right? So, and the guys don't celebrate each other. So now it's teaching the guys how to celebrate a big play if I'm on the sideline. is a big part of not only leadership, but say, being a captain, right? and But it's hard, because what I talk about, another line from, what if if there was any line I could be remembered for,
Speaker: There was a famous guy, Zig Ziglar, and one of his, I used him as the example, his line was, if you help enough people get what they want, you'll get what you want. That was his line, he became famous, they say it. It took me 30 year career and i and it hit me. And I said, if you wanna be a great coach or you wanna be a great leader, you have to develop the bill the ability to get more enthusiastic about somebody else more than yourself. And that was another big part of the book.
Speaker: and And that's what you're talking about there is the ability to celebrate somebody else's success, even if you didn't have it. Like that's a skill, man. And that's a form um of emotional intelligence that I will, again, being honest, is I didn't have that.
Speaker: I didn't have that. was too competitive. If somebody else would have beat me, I'm not happy for them, and I'm not celebrating them. Where until I made the transition from athlete to coach, right, and now ultimately the captain or head coach of my organizations, now I celebrate everybody, and and now it's not about me. or Or hey, now when I'm cornering Jim Miller with the most fights, most wins in UFC history, and he wins a fight, like I've shown shown the pictures, when he wins, I'm screaming, And I say, who am I excited about? I asked the crowd and they're like, him. And i'm like, absolutely. It's not about me. It's nothing about me. I'm so excited for him and what has just happened. And ah that took a very long time to do. So that's another part too, right? Like, hey, a high school kid that's an athlete that's trying to make it, like, that's hard to get excited for somebody, right? But it's another skill. So that might be another one on your grit thing to figure out, do they have it, right?
Speaker: a skill I struggled with as a team captain and an eventual coach within the sport of lacrosse at the college level was getting frustrated with kids that didn't want it as much as did. don't care. Yeah, like they're not into it. No, it's hard, right? how do you And that's the part two, the old classic line, right? Can't make chicken salad out of chicken crap, right? like so So, hey, there's going to be people that don't care, and no matter how hard you push them,
Speaker: That's what I was talking about before. Same thing that you've selected somebody as a captain and they don't care but because they're the best player. Or you've selected somebody as a captain and they don't even care to be the captain or about everybody else. That was the wrong selection. Because I think you could spend your whole life trying to make them into what you will i eventually identify with your work as what a captain should be.
Speaker: And here's the thing. If they don't got it, like I would say invest your time in the person that does have it, not try to manufacture it in someone who doesn't. Right? So... Yeah. There's social opportunities to lead.
Speaker: Let those dudes do that stuff off the field. But when it comes to. Yeah, but that word captain and what it means to you that like you can't just give that out. Right. Like and that would be maybe coming full circle. My biggest thing would be, yeah, don't don't just stamp it on somebody's back. It's the same thing. Like hey if you're going to dare to put the word coach on your back or your hat,
Speaker: You better go earn that every day. and yeah yeah You should really probably understand more what it means. And many people don't. And that's what I've spent my career trying to educate about. And because I believe it's the most noble profession, the world needs better coaches. Like everybody is a coach, a mom, a dad, teacher. These are all interchangeable with you're a coach. And I don't think people understand the role. And then if you don't understand it, if you do it wrong, it can be the most detrimental thing.
Speaker: stuff in the world because, hey, you might say, well, what about the world needs more doctors? Yeah, but there had to be great coaches that influences those people to be doctors. Hey, we need better politicians. Well, those politicians need better coaches to whatever. And yeah, who who are those people going to be?
Speaker: And Yeah, that yeah again, take none of it lightly, right? From whatever title, man, you better understand what it means. That's why it was neat. You see how I had to create a crystal definition and what does it mean? And then now that I know what it is, every time I meet somebody, like today, he I'm trying to help him get closer to where he wants to go that maybe he can't himself. So I'm giving you expertise. I'm giving you ideas to help you with that thing you want to achieve. Like, see, and watch. So,
Speaker: Do you dislike me because of that? No, I'm fired up. No way. So a coach could never not inspiring or fired up as long as you're always taking them in that direction. But now if I said, that thing is stupid and that's not worth anything and to go investigate this stuff would be dumber. Why are you going to do that? You're wasting your time. You won't make any money with that. And now all I did was create, I didn't take you where you want to go. All I did was put obstacles in front of where you wanted to go and then you're probably going to dislike me.
Speaker: And maybe that as an example, guys, As a coach, if you're always getting somebody a little closer to the thing that they want, they can't not but love you and you're not gonna have a lot of problems, right? But if everything you're doing is actually counterproductive to them getting what they want or or actually telling them their dream dream isn't possible, like that's not your job. And I see a lot of coaches do that.
Speaker: Right, unfortunately. I think that's a powerful point to end on. Yeah. Man, that was a fire hose of information. It was great. And we didn't know what was going to come out, but I think there was some really, really valuable stuff there. So we know the two books. Where else? Because you've a lot going on. Where else can people learn to follow? Yeah. Yeah, so you can check out a couple of different websites. One could be trainingforwarriors.com. That's my organization that is global where we're working with people with fitness around the world. I have coachinggreatness.com, which is more about the coaching and culture aspects of what we teach if you want to learn more about that. But social media, on Instagram, I am vmartinrooney. If you want to check out some of my adventures from around the world. And I'm always posting about where I are. I'll be doing it from here. We're in Orlando right now at the NSCA Tactical Convention where I spoke yesterday. And yeah, so always off to somewhere new, but always trying to make a world better coaches.
Speaker: Boom. So appreciate you. Yeah. and My pleasure. all right. Scene. ah We got to do a lot of stuff there. lot of good stuff.
