Transcript
Speaker: Action! Welcome to the Captains and Coaches podcast. We explore the art and science of leadership through the lens of athletics and beyond. beyond I'm your host, Tex McOakhan, and today's guest has spent over 20 years in locker rooms of some of the highest pressure environments in sport.
Speaker: College soccer, Major League Baseball, Major League Soccer, and now, with special operations with the Army 75th Ranger Regiment. Our guest is Dr. Ben Frakely, and he's a certified mental performance consultant and the founder of Ready, Set, Resilient, where he helps coaches and leaders build teams that perform under pressure instead of playing scared.
Speaker: He's also the co-creator of the Chop Shop, a space where elite coaches get real about the craft coaching. Today's conversation we talk about leading the individual versus leading the team, what actually builds trust among athletes, and the questions every coach should be asking at halftime.
Speaker: If you enjoy components of this, I encourage you to head to captainsandcoaches.com, click that education tab. We've got two courses available. One, leading the mental and emotional state of an individual. That's called why they're not listening, how you take the kid.
Speaker: who's disagreeable all the way to being a team leader, team captain. And also I have a new one, it's called, Funishment, Reframing Discipline and Athletics. And that's about leading the mental and emotional state of teams. Awesome courses, captainsandcoaches.com, hit the education tab. Now, let's throw it out to Ben who helps us raise the game. Ready, ready, and break.
Speaker: Should's a dirty word, especially in the coaching world. All right, we're rocking and rolling, sitting down with Ben Freakley at the Soldiers to Sidelines Summit. This is the second annual. Second annual. Were you part of the first annual? I was. We missed each other.
Speaker: I was in the lacrosse room. Lacrosse Bros. Yeah. I'm sorry we didn't get the opportunity to connect last year. We're here now. We are here now and present, and that's a lot of what I want to get into. Presence and focus and performance and resilience.
Speaker: And I had the opportunity to listen some of your interviews in the past in this brief window that we've had, and there was a moment. that changed the trajectory of your coaching career that I want to sit in for a little bit and then set up the rest of our conversation here You're going make me retell that story. It doesn't have to be the full story, but the moment. And then I think it's important for coaches to hold that mirror up similar to you did.
Speaker: Hand it off. Coaching. Coaching. 2007. We're taking back. Well, before that, it's great to be on here with you. I always... Just appreciate getting to talk about the craft of coaching and the profession of it.
Speaker: There's nothing like it. So yeah, back to that day. um Actually, there's ah there's there's moments before that. I think all coaches have a checklist of what gives them the confidence that their team is ready to compete.
Speaker: And in soccer specifically, you run through that, that that's a a technical, a tactical, a physical, and a psychological. If you looked at the four quadrants, that's not an exhaustive list, but we could call that the big four.
Speaker: In addition to that, as my at that time in my life, head coach at Virginia Military Institute, we had never beaten Coastal Carolina University. Wonderful program, great history there.
Speaker: And I'm a big fan of the the Proverbs verse, without a vision that people will perish. So the vision that I kept putting in front of the team is that we're going to be the first team at BMI to ever beat Coastal Carolina University. and And going into that game, I felt we were ready to do that. With 20 minutes to go you know the story, with 20 minutes to go-ish, we were winning And then...
Speaker: and then Coastal Carolina scored. Up to that moment, ah i would say I would classify our team that we were operating from a place of the motivation to achieve success.
Speaker: Everybody was focused on their job, not the clock. Guys were playing pass by pass and minute by minute. um They were not ruminating on mistakes or or getting caught up in that.
Speaker: um and And we were taking some appropriate risks. yeah ah you know So many coaches talk about playing brave and courage and our team was full of it that day. And in that moment, there was a big shift. It didn't happen immediately, but it started to happen.
Speaker: And when I talk to coaches about this, when I talk to teams about this, I get a lot of head nods when I ask who knows what it's like to play, not to lose. Yeah.
Speaker: And that's what happened to us. Loss aversion is another term for that. Or it was the motivation to avoid failure. We shifted. into what if we lose, how much time is left, how do we protect what we have instead of build of of what we've done.
Speaker: And um all all fault of that day, I you know still put on myself because I love the phrase, calm is contagious, but so is fear.
Speaker: And if you look to the sideline for stability in your coach and poise in your coach, I wasn't any of those things. So that really was a watershed moment for me, Tex. And at the time, i had some interest in the field of sports psychology. I think all coaches do.
Speaker: um But that really was a pivot point where I said, I need to learn about this. And I went back to school. That's ah four masters, and ah I know you have your EDD. Yeah. ah First, with ah my master's in sports psychology, I never planned on leaving coaching. I wanted to, like like all great coaches, I just wanted to add tools to the toolkit. And it was so fun because I was...
Speaker: coaching at my ma alma mater, Georgia Southern, while getting a master's in sports psychology. And I got to take some of these concepts from a classroom and start to see what they would look like in an applied fashion. And then opportunities came outside of soccer and that took me into professional baseball and working with the army rangers and it was during that time that i went on to do my doctoral degree and and just keep going as deep as i can the field that's awesome i love it uh i'm six or seven months into my edd so i'm having a great time and what are you doing it in uh organizational leadership where
Speaker: Marymount University, my alma mater. Awesome. So where Joe and I went to college. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. It's a lot of fun. So then yeah there's pride and passion in it because back to where it all started. Yeah.
Speaker: Which is very Full circle. Always. Yeah. I wouldn't have been ready for that level of academic rigor. um any earlier than starting at 40. And it's you know just never too late.
Speaker: That's the important thing. And a lot of coaches, they have it figured out. So now many different levels from professional to even, I mean, professional in the sense of careers, not coaching,
Speaker: How do you now convince people to become more self-aware? Do you have guys that have shields up and they're trying to impress you when you walk in the door? Or are they ready to recede? I don't want to convince anybody.
Speaker: i don't I don't want to sell. i I think people, especially whether be pro athletes, pro coaches,
Speaker: leaders, executives, anybody and special operations forces, I think they can sense selling. um I think you only get guards down with not even trying to lead with content yeah about what you know or leading with how you can help.
Speaker: You lead with authenticity and you lead with connection. You lead with just anything that's gonna build trust. You know, I think I could think about a ah recent experience that when I boiled it all down and asked myself, well what are my top priorities these first 90 days working with this entity?
Speaker: It was just relationships and context. If I go in every day and just build relationships, and if I spend all my time asking them, what's it like to be here? What's it like to learn, to to be involved here and participate here? What's being a great teammate look like here?
Speaker: um I think people really sense that genuine curiosity and connection and there's no selling or convincing needing. I think this, my field sport performance psychology is, you know,
Speaker: The only way you really get people invested in that is is when as my one of my closest friends and and colleagues Dr. Rob DiBernardo you let people vote with their feet.
Speaker: you know You don't go and pitch or try and sell. yeah my my My experience, my philosophy. And then have have you found parallels between soccer, baseball, tactical, and the professional sense? Are there parallels and themes of success yeah that popped up for you? Yeah, parallels, ambition.
Speaker: I think that's one, elite routines that are based in discipline, non-feelings, like motivation, for example.
Speaker: I think you get
Speaker: a desire to get better. So that that that parallel that you've asked me about, I can think of many guys that are at the top and are still asking themselves what does better look like?
Speaker: It's marginal gains at that level, but there's still gains to be made. There's still edges to be sharpened. Usually it's that, those psychological factors that that can that they really wanna lean into. um Differences, ah and I'd say this is more just around how pro sport is set up is um the system in pro sports promotes more of a
Speaker: I need to look out for for me. It's a very transactional environment. However, I've been around some incredible leaders that can make it feel transformational.
Speaker: Whereas i think in the military, there is no type of there's nothing that would keep a guy or a woman from deploying or going out with their team.
Speaker: that that sense of team and togetherness is impossible to break. Yeah.
Speaker: You've been on both sides and I find it interesting when collegiate sports teams want to bring in military for team bonding and then just the opposite. You get the military bringing in sports professionals to to fill some void that they don't feel that they have.
Speaker: who What do you think that is? Because you've been on both sides of this fence. I think there's a A curiosity, an attraction to how do you approach performance?
Speaker: How do you approach team? How do you respond to challenge? um How do you grow leaders?
Speaker: I mean, those things are all universal. It's really unique at the top. And to your point, I've been in some been very blessed to be in some rooms where both of those groups have been coming together. I can think of a great experience when I worked with the Toronto Blue Jays and...
Speaker: ah also got to be back with 75th Ranger Regiment. So we had some of our coaches and front office staff in the room with leaders from 75th Ranger Regiment where these types of questions and themes were thrown out there and just watched people talk about it.
Speaker: And I think it's important just to get out of the
Speaker: siloed thinking or really challenge, hey, we're doing good, but is it the best way? And collaboration can be a competitive advantage. So whether it's a sports team talking to tactical or a sports team talking to a high performing medical organization, I just think that helps us think differently. And I'm a big fan of the quote, learning is the only sustainable competitive advantage.
Speaker: And Sometimes you need to go outside, not all the time, but sometimes you need to go outside of your organization. to learn from how other people are doing it. And just ask them, not what do you say you're doing, but what are you actually doing that you think moves the needle?
Speaker: then ah ah I'd love to dive into leading the mental and emotional state of individuals versus leading the mental and emotional state of the team. Because you've had the but the opportunities to do both.
Speaker: So as a head coach, you're in charge of this mission, vision, values of the team, but at the same time, I got to zero in on either recruits to get them on board or hey this kid needs me, his grades are slipping or his performance is down, what's up?
Speaker: So how do you have that bandwidth, the flexibility, the dynamic leadership skills to to go in and out? Because a lot of coaches are team only because individuals are scary.
Speaker: Or the really good one-on-one and then the team dynamics is a a challenge. Well i love how you frame it up. I think that's right. um When I was with the Blue Jays, we had a um a guy coming in consult with us, Hatters, Dave Hatfield um from New Zealand, wonderful guy.
Speaker: And he gave a great metaphor that there's there's two balls the coach has to keep in the air, that the one about the team and the one about the individual. Tex, throughout most of my coaching career and probably another reason that I pivoted to sports psychology is I was definitely that coach that that kept the team ball in the air.
Speaker: If you'd asked me, i'd I'd probably say otherwise, but as I reflect back on that time my life, I was hyper-focused on team.
Speaker: what I thought were the primary responsibilities at the time. You know, are are we winning? Do we have a competitive record? Am I getting the best guys to come in? Do I have a clear game model?
Speaker: I'm getting ready for the game on Saturday. And that does not leave a enough and ah enough or a lot of time left over, or at least that was the story I told myself. to say which player have I not connected with in the last couple days or let me just step back and see how guys are entering or leaving the locker room and have there been any shifts I didn't have that awareness during that time um the longer I've been in the field of sports psychology the the more i have believed or
Speaker: looked at and promoted more of a systems or environmental approach um where the it doesn't have to be what we would classify as a coach-centered environment.
Speaker: And it could be more of ah of an athlete-centered environment where
Speaker: how we talk about success and failure The types of goals that we talk about, the things that are rewarded, all promote um psychological needs like autonomy and competence and relatedness.
Speaker: um These conversations and the things that we point to can have ah that bolster belief in players, self-efficacy. And so when you get those things right, you don't really have to be the guy making sure you touch every player, it should be there.
Speaker: um But when those things are right in the environment, then that can have an emotional and a social and ah and a psychological benefit to it where players feel like I can really be myself here and I can take risks in this environment and I know my coach will help me learn from that instead of just always put me on the bench, which is part of it too.
Speaker: um I can be a great teammate here. Hey, this is an environment where I'm not competing with Tex for a spot, but i but I genuinely want him to be successful and I think he wants the same thing for me.
Speaker: This isn't utopian. I think this is possible. I think some coaches are really doing this. I think it's possible at professional levels as well. But a lot of it comes down to how we address the the big things in sport like winning, like goals, like being a teammate, like bouncing back.
Speaker: That language that we use will form mental models, especially in like young players, in in how they want to show up for a team. Yeah. I know club sports has been a big part of soccer, and you recruited these kids, and ah lacrosse is entering into this club phase. It's almost 10, 15 years behind soccer and basketball, and money is really pouring in. it So these kids are getting individual skill coaches. They're going to travel teams with all different kids. It's not their cohesive unit.
Speaker: Did you ever notice a kid that would like train with his high school team, be a part of a team, or just an individual based when they got to the next level?
Speaker: Were they more challenging? Was it it different? Was it observations? like Did you ever notice how club travel affected versus the kid who played for the school? um on what On what level? like what what Tell me a little bit more about your question. For, i mean, attitude, being a good teammate.
Speaker: Because they're used to the me versus understanding the we. And they're not friends with a lot of their travel guys. Now i gotta I don't know how to make friends with my teammates yeah at the college level, which makes for a great team in my opinion. Sure. ah No, I didn't personally experience that.
Speaker: But I think that in this situation that you're talking about, and I think that this can happen, you are seeing more at youth amateur levels, the the private coach, the individual skills coach and a strength coach, um you're seeing young, young, young athletes having some of the same resources that college and pro athletes do, and the more isolated somebody is, I could see potentially the social challenges around that.
Speaker: That's where I think there is there is a um approach in psychology or framework called motivational interviewing.
Speaker: um I, this is probably in my I wish category back when I was coaching of something that I knew about. This would be a perfect situation for that.
Speaker: For a coach to go to a player and ask open-ended questions like, a what do you what do you want it to be like to be a teammate to all these guys?
Speaker: And then you let the player, you know, talk about that. um Hey, tell me, you know, before our team, tell me about some of the best teammates that you had.
Speaker: Or what made them great teammates? And you allow that player to say that. And maybe ask an open-ended question in there. One to ten, how well do you think you're adjusting to our team?
Speaker: Because this is pretty new. And instead of approaching it from, you're not integrating, you're not being a great teammate, which would likely make the athlete at least mentally withdraw, while physically in the moment they're probably just saying, yes, coach.
Speaker: um Those questions are more of ah of a collaborative exploration and allowing that player to even envision a little bit. um how they want to integrate into the team. And then there's questions and they're like, well, how can I support you in this? Or how can I hold you accountable?
Speaker: You said you want to, you know, meet or get more connected. Well, what would that look like? And that could feel really empowering for athletes.
Speaker: Yeah, I can see that. That's good card to play. I'm curious about the differences between collegiate and professional sports competency. what's leadership like at that pro level? Because you said there's potential to have transactional. And I was fortunate to work with a professional team and a challenge a coach had was their best player on this side of the ball.
Speaker: He was so worried about doing his job, but the coaches needed him or wanted him to step into a leadership role because he was the best player on that side. yeah And he wanted to just do his job because that's what pays his bills. So it was this interesting dynamic conflict that the coaches were facing, wanting more leadership as professional athlete. yeah Yeah. they're I think that one has a lot of layers to it because they're, they both sound right in the situation.
Speaker: Hey, a coach wanting a a pro athlete to step up more. That's one consistent thing I've seen working in pro sports is really the players are are really setting that culture in the locker room. um And so,
Speaker: for a coach to want the player to lead, that makes all the sense in the world to me because pros have had a lot of reps and they've been around teams.
Speaker: Some pros have been around a lot of teams and they might've had a time in their life when they wanted to lead more and they took their eye off the performance ball and then they didn't have an opportunity there anymore.
Speaker: And so there are some risks that could be associated with that when a player may want to and see the need for that.
Speaker: um And that's where I've seen coaches create leadership groups at the pro level where you you don't maybe put all the expectations and pressure on one individual yeah to get the dynamics and the cohesion right, but you could spread that amongst a council of experienced players, especially when you have um multinational teams, you know, to to get, you know, a couple guys in there that speak different languages, can be different messengers of that.
Speaker: um And I think just this is a question that's never going to go away. You know, we asked it at the Blue Jays and we asked it at Atlanta United and we asked it with other teams that I'm working with. And how do we just ask that player that you're talking about um for where's a small way you could start with this? you know or Or checking like, hey, when you say when you hear me say, i need you to lead more, what do you think I'm saying?
Speaker: And see if there's there's a way to support that player. um But I think the having the councils, having the groups, having coaches and captains talk regularly about the overall health of the team and what's getting in the way of that.
Speaker: And a coach saying, what do I need to know about that? um I mean, leadership could just be that player that you're talking about um maybe advising the coach, Hey, we need more of this or, Hey, we need less of that.
Speaker: And I see, I mean, I've not been inside any of these organizations, but it seems like guys like Steve Kerr and guys like Popovich, um have just kind of mastered that relationship where they can relinquish some of that control. Because when you have the right leader in the in the locker room, you can spend so much more time on tactics yeah and so much less time talking about standards.
Speaker: Oh yeah. And then that's, that's the big thing. While I'd love high school age groups, the frustrating thing is we spend a lot more time shaping behaviors than skills.
Speaker: So getting and installing standards, leadership, and systems, then they hopefully will understand, hey, yes, discipline when we need it. At the same time, the faster we listen to get on the same page, the more we get to play.
Speaker: And Tex, I think to that, again, you know um um sharing this response from you know what what the research says, but also from a personal experience. you know When those standards that you're talking about are co-created,
Speaker: with the team. People are a lot more likely to commit to what they help create. And I've listened to, I love coaches. I just, I love coaches. I love the profession of coaching.
Speaker: And one of the areas where I think we get it wrong is, you know, that that vision and those standards, um if people haven't been invited to participate in it at all, um then it can just feel like, man, this is just being forced upon me.
Speaker: um But when it is asked, what's it gonna be like to be on this team? What are our non-negotiables? Okay? And what should you all hold each other accountable to? And when might I step in on things like that?
Speaker: I think you get players that wanna hold each other accountable to that. Yeah. And ah a version of that was, and I love this, the three question halftime.
Speaker: So you telling. That's right. We're opening up. Sustain, stop, start. So you got talk to us about the three question and I'm going to steal this. Well, steal away.
Speaker: um When I was the head coach of Tormenta FC, uh, You get 15 minutes in ah in a soccer halftime and you know having known about the importance of open-ended questions and reflection and also knowing that my experience as a coach and how I'm seeing the game is very different than what players are seeing and experiencing the game.
Speaker: So I, at the beginning of the season, ah shared with the guys, hey, here's your job. When you go into the locker room before the coaching staff, I want you to answer three questions. One, sustain.
Speaker: What are we doing well? If we keep doing this over and over and over again, we know it's going to give us success. Score more goals, prevent goals, win games. Two, what do we need to stop doing?
Speaker: it's in the It's in the way, it's hurting us. This could be at an individual level, this could be at a group level or entire team. And then three, and this is the most action oriented, what do we need to start doing?
Speaker: What is it that if we changed, you know, hey, we need to start attacking down their left side. We've only been over there two or three times, we need to be over there 10 times.
Speaker: hey, we need to start being first to the ball on set pieces. We were a little late. And then if everything that they said was aligned with what the staff and I were seeing, we really didn't have too much to say as a group and we could spend the rest of that time having individual conversations about that.
Speaker: And if we saw something different, then we would just add it to the list. And if we needed to contradict and say, no, we do not need to do that, we could say that too. But what you get in that is you get autonomy where where players are starting to own the solutions.
Speaker: um And then you also get relatedness or belonging where everybody is invited into a conversation on how we're gonna dominate the next 45 minutes of of this game.
Speaker: I love it. i loved it too. I think, and and you saw a lot of engagement from from the players as well. Yeah. Because at that ah at that level, Tex, and I think you could do this with high school players. i think you could do this with youth players.
Speaker: um They have ideas. They have ideas. And when you can go in and and facilitate that conversation instead of dominate it, and I get where that comes from.
Speaker: There's that pressure to win. And we feel as coaches that we need to have the solutions. And that's true. But they do too. They've got ideas. Yeah. And I mean, field sports like soccer and lacrosse, there's this creative where we can we can scheme, we can put our plays in, but...
Speaker: then there's going to moments where dudes are going to be dudes. I love it. And if they're holding back because they don't want to express their ideas at halftime, yeah they're less likely to take those risks in those moments where they see this and then yeah great. Now we're back to playing not to lose. Exactly. Yeah. So I want to close this down by talking about chop shop and some opportunities that you have ahead. Sure.
Speaker: Love the chop shop. Thanks for asking about that. So, um, My colleagues, Dr. Tyler McDaniel and Dr. Rob DiBernardo, we got together in December.
Speaker: Rob, you know, his background, Rob, like me, spent the first part of his career as a college coach. Rob was a college basketball coach.
Speaker: He and I were teammates at the Toronto Blue Jays. and And Tyler McDaniel, he and I did our masters in sport psychology together, and he went on to be a psychologist in the Air Force.
Speaker: And so the three of us were were together on a call, and we wanted to create a monthly opportunity for professional coaches to come together of multiple sports and talk about the craft of coaching, the art and the science.
Speaker: And so what we put together was six-month ah experience called the chop shop and we had guys that have coached in the nfl and guys have coached college are coaching college football we had major league baseball guys we had some front office guys from the and nba and the mls we have uh national team coaches for yeah youth national team for soccer we have pro coaches in there that have coached and are in the mls and we got together on one sunday a month for six months
Speaker: And we had a theme every time, the first one being um coaches set the culture, players drive it, or how to have hard conversations, or coach burnout.
Speaker: And there is just so much that is on the coach, and we wanted to create a place where where these professors of practice could come together and get outside of their sport and talk about the challenges and the opportunities that that kind of are are all in their minds. And we heard some amazing stories, amazing stories.
Speaker: um And so our goal in that is, you know, we really believe, my my company Ready, Set, Resilient, we really believe that that leaders and coaches are already the mental performance coaches or the sports psychologists of their teams. Every coach is out there thinking about the best motivation and the most focused and the best teammates and the most competitive. And we think about those things too. Sometimes similar, sometimes we think about them differently.
Speaker: So in the chop shop, it's this really cool blend of coaches, these professors of practice that are talking about some incredible experiences that they've had and the psychological and social impact that those decisions and beliefs and principles have on their teams.
Speaker: And then Rob and Tyler and myself will sprinkle in some frameworks, some exercises and some education just to help us all continue to think about the craft of coaching the best as we can. And then if that turns the following week for them into a different way that they approach a team talk or a different way that they approach approach a talk with an agent or a talk with an athlete or if it's a front office guy and if it's how they approach a talk with a coach or a coaching staff then we're excited to hear about that the next time coaches need support there's so much great support out there for athletes yeah and um we just want to support coaches yeah
Speaker: at They're at the top of the pyramid, so it's tough for them to i mean share, divulge, get feedback, advice, just talk about it.
Speaker: So this is a great opportunity for coaches open up. and I would say coach needs a coach. yeah So that it sounds like an awesome opportunity. When's the next cohort getting rolling? So we are we're getting feedback right now from our folks first co ho co cohort.
Speaker: ah We will make some adjustments. We'll do our own sustained stop-start for how we can improve the chop shop. And then I would say within the next couple months, we will open up 12 to 15 seats for another six-month experience. And in addition to that, to your point about a coach needs a coach,
Speaker: Rob and and Tyler and myself, we all do executive coaching and one-on-one coaching with leaders and coaches. So in that experience, they also get one-on-one time with us.
Speaker: What's up man, wrapping up, sorry. the Well cheers, where can people go to learn more from you, follow, and then mean just continue learn? cause I mean I was able to find a lot of resources within a short window that I had to prepare prepare for this. You got a lot of good stuff out there. ah Thanks Tex.
Speaker: Our company is Ready, Set, Resilient. Our website is rsrcoaching.com. People can find me on LinkedIn. and they can reach out, they can email us through our website as well.
Speaker: please Well, Ben, i know you got a presentation today. Thanks. I got squats today, so I'm transitioning from sport to strength. So, I'm all for it.
Speaker: Thank you to Soldiers to Sidelines for connecting, great coaches, as well at conferences. We get to cross, pollinate, performance, sports, and just talk shop.
Speaker: Thanks for having me, bro. Chop it up. you know Chopping it up All right. Cheers. Thanks for tuning in. See you.
