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35–Jessica Rhodes: Master the Podcast Guesting Game
24 Plays6 days ago
In this episode of The Unfolding Thought Podcast, host Eric Pratum sits down with Jessica Rhodes, founder and CEO of Interview Connections. Jessica discusses her journey from booking her dad's podcast interviews to establishing an agency that has facilitated tens of thousands of guest appearances.
She explains the nuances of becoming a successful podcast guest, addressing common pitfalls, misconceptions, and the strategies behind making every podcast appearance a meaningful part of your broader marketing and networking efforts. Jessica also explores how podcast guesting can yield impressive returns, even from shows with smaller audiences, emphasizing the importance of authenticity, preparation, and strategic repurposing of content.
Topics Explored:
- Jessica's Journey: From VA to Podcast Guesting Expert
- What Makes a Great Podcast Guest?
- Leveraging Podcast Appearances for Marketing & SEO
- Misconceptions About Podcast Audience Sizes
- How to Strategically Repurpose Podcast Content
- Measuring ROI from Podcast Guesting
- Authenticity & Emotional Resonance in Interviews
- Future Trends in Podcasting and Guesting
Links:
- Connect with Jessica on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-rhodes-9a291020/
- Jessica’s company, Interview Connections: http://interviewconnections.com
- Jessica on Trauma Rewired: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/trauma-rewired/id1537602643?i=1000615695331
- Jessica on Jason Shupp’s From There to Here: https://missionmatters.com/jessica-rhodes-a-pioneer-in-podcasting/
- Jessica’s podcast on 10Xing your podcast results: https://interviewconnections.com/repurpose-pod
For more episodes, visit: https://unfoldingthought.com
Join the conversation by emailing Eric at: eric@inboundandagile.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Jessica's Background
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to the Unfolding Thought Podcast. My name is Eric Pridham. Today, I'm speaking with Jessica Rhodes, the founder of Interview Connections, the world's first podcast booking agency.
Benefits of Podcast Guesting
00:00:15
Speaker
Jessica started her entrepreneurial journey as a virtual assistant, booking her father on podcasts, and turned that experience into an agency that helps entrepreneurs grow their visibility, credibility, and sales through podcast guesting.
00:00:31
Speaker
We talk about how to leverage podcast guesting from the essentials of being a great guest, common misconceptions about podcasts, and the surprising ways podcasting can amplify your marketing efforts.
00:00:46
Speaker
I found her guidance not only helpful for podcasters and entrepreneurs, but really valuable for anyone looking to enhance their marketing strategy and build deeper, more authentic connections.
Jessica's Personal and Professional Balance
00:01:01
Speaker
And now I bring you Jessica Rhodes. Jessica, thank you for joining me. Would you mind telling me a little bit about yourself? Yeah, absolutely. So I have a business. I'm the founder of interviewconnections.com.
00:01:15
Speaker
I'm married. I've got two kids who are 9 and 12, and they are really deep into the the competitive youth sports era of their lives, which is a whole thing. Um, and yeah, I've got 10 backyard chickens, three cats, got a couple, uh, gerbils and a fish. So I've got a very busy life, um, with kids, with our pets, my home, uh, with my business. I've been in business for over 12 years now. So that's a little bit, that's kind of the snapshot of my life right now.
00:01:50
Speaker
Am I recalling correctly that a portion of sort of like the start of your current business had to do with booking your father on podcasts?
00:02:01
Speaker
Yep. Yep. You're remembering correctly. So what got me started in business was I wanted to be stay-at-home mom. So when my son Nathan was, a you know, when I was pregnant really with him, that's when I was like, okay, I want to be home when the baby comes.
00:02:14
Speaker
And so my dad said, you should start a virtual assistant business. And that's what got me. into this world of online entrepreneurship is, you know, my dad suggested I start a VA business and he was my first client.
Entrepreneurial Journey and Skills
00:02:28
Speaker
And I did a variety of things for him. Like i was, he's a, you know, he has a bunch of self-published business books. So I was like his fulfillment house. I would go to the post office and like ship out his books. And um I would do like client support for him and, you know, sales calls for his program. So I did a bunch of different stuff for my dad.
00:02:47
Speaker
But then he goes, why don't you book me on podcasts? Because I love doing podcast interviews. And he had another VA that was doing it, but he's like, I think you'd be good it because I did door to door. And so, yeah, that's how I got started. I was booking my dad as a guest on podcasts and then kind of grew from there where he referred a couple of his friends that hired me.
00:03:07
Speaker
And then from there. made it a whole agency and just went all in on that service. And that was about 12 years ago when you started doing it for your father and then eventually expanded?
00:03:19
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah, 12 years
Focus on Podcast Booking
00:03:21
Speaker
ago. And so you mentioned door-to-door. Door-to-door sales? So I was working for a nonprofit organization. So I wasn't selling a product or a service, but I was fundraising. So we went door to door and we were community organizing. So we were getting people to sign our clipboard to become a supporting member of the organization. and then we were also getting donations through, were getting cash and check donations. So that's what I did. I did that for six years. And honestly, i loved it.
00:03:54
Speaker
Now that you mentioned that, yes, I had forgotten that the way that I came upon you was Jason Shupp's From There to Here podcast you were on and you told that story. So I will link to that in the show notes so that everyone can go back to that. I found your origin story really interesting.
00:04:10
Speaker
Yes. Yes. That was a great that was a great podcast. And he really drew out my whole story from theater to canvassing. So, yeah. Awesome. Well, OK, so you have a business that focuses either exclusively or primarily on booking your clients for guest appearances on podcasts, correct?
00:04:33
Speaker
Yes. Yes. And I think I read somewhere that you have booked somewhere around 30,000 interviews. Does that sound right? Yeah, our our agency has booked over 30,000. They didn't all do them personally, but I did a bunch of them in the beginning. beginning Now we've got a
Maximizing Podcast Marketing Impact
00:04:52
Speaker
great booking team. But yeah, I mean, we I added it up recently and I'm like, oh my God, because we book hundreds every single month. So I just kind of did some back of the napkin math and it's like, yeah, 100%.
00:05:04
Speaker
Over 30,000. Over our career to date, we've had over 800 clients that have hired us to get them booked on podcasts. so And that's all we do. We don't do speaking. We don't do like traditional media. It's all podcasts.
00:05:20
Speaker
Are there things that you feel like you have learned about being a good guest or finding a good podcast or any other things that when someone asks you about your business or you feel like maybe they're not thinking about x y or Z, you feel like, oh, you got to know these or these are important for my business?
00:05:41
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, but that kind of can take that in two different ways. So number one, in terms of like being a good guest, it's really just about being yourself. um one It's funny because sometimes when we have people that are keynote speakers or they do a lot of keynote talks, sometimes they're the worst guests because they're just used to the stage. They're used to just giving their talk and they may be excellent at that. But then when they get on a podcast and a podcast is a conversation. There's like, i think the best metaphor is it's like a ballroom dance, you know, somebody is leading, but somebody, but it's, it's absolutely a dance. Like two people are co-creating that episode. It can't just be one person leading the charge, but it it is a dance between both people. There's some coordination to it of like, what are we going to talk about? Right. What are the cues and stuff like that? so
00:06:31
Speaker
It's a co-creation. And so when somebody is just a speaker and they're not used to sharing the platform with somebody else, it can be a little bit challenging. And so my tip is always that it's not about being super well rehearsed. It's not about having. having your sound bites or knowing exactly what to say, because you never know what the question is going to be specifically. They might, you know, phrase questions in a different way. They might ask you a question that you've never been asked before and you have to think on your feet.
00:06:58
Speaker
So just be yourself. You know, don't worry about this being a performance. And when you just settle into that and you are yourself, that's when the best, best interviews are when people are just being themselves.
00:07:09
Speaker
um So that's kind of like that, you know, that part one. And then strategically, tactically speaking, most people, when they get into podcasting and being a guest, they're not leveraging the content.
00:07:22
Speaker
So there maybe they're doing a great job, they're doing a great interview, and then they're like, but did anything happen from that? like Did I get any leads from it? I don't know if people heard it. you know And so I'm always teaching to Take the interview, repurpose it, promote it, like use it, listen back to it, like really know that the actual recording of the episode, the interview is only that's only step one. That's only one piece of the puzzle.
00:07:50
Speaker
On your first point, do you recommend generally that your clients have some sort of preparation, like know what it is that you want out of this recording or be ready with your call to action or any other preparation before they just maybe walk into something sort of blind or unprepared?
00:08:15
Speaker
Yeah, I do recommend to my clients to have a goal in mind, like know what you want to get out of it, because that really determines the whole strategy of what types of shows you're going to be a guest on. What are you going to be interviewed ah about? What are the topics? Who's the target audience?
00:08:31
Speaker
And then from there, based off of what the goal is for the business, what is the best call to action? Where's the best place to send the send the listeners after they hear you on the show?
00:08:42
Speaker
And you may want to test out a few different calls to action, a few different free gifts or websites. um But there should be a plan of what you're going to of like, what are the general topics?
00:08:53
Speaker
And then what is the call to action? ah plan with flexibility, you know, because you might want to change it on the fly. You mentioned, I think this was part of your second approach to my question, that your clients or people generally will not have confidence that they got something out of their podcast appearance.
00:09:18
Speaker
So are there things that you do with your clients to help them gain that confidence that they're getting leads, sales, visibility or something else from their activity?
00:09:29
Speaker
Yeah, the biggest thing that we do is really help them see the big picture. Because when you're only focused on like, am I having people who hear this podcast reach out to me and become a lead, like become a client?
00:09:42
Speaker
If that's the only thing you're looking at your you may be disappointed if you don't see a whole bunch of people reaching out after a show, because maybe the audience is hearing you for the first time. They're not ready for you. they're not They want to follow you a little bit longer before they convert and reach out. I mean,
00:09:57
Speaker
A lot of people nowadays are not entering your sales cycle until they've already consumed multiple hours of your content, you know. and So rather than, you know, lose confidence and feel disappointed in the result, look at everything else that you're getting that you can control. So when it comes to search engine optimization, if you're doing multiple interviews every single month, like When you start being a podcast guest, you can look at what your domain authority is.
00:10:21
Speaker
You know, how many backlinks are out there to your website? And you can see that number grow because that will happen. You will have more podcast appearances with backlinks. You will have interviews on YouTube. You will have content that you can repurpose.
00:10:34
Speaker
um So look at that metric. Look at all the content that you can be posting on social media. So a big pain point people have often when they're marketing is, I don't know what to post. I don't know what to say. and don't have short-form videos. I don't have content.
00:10:48
Speaker
But then when you go get on podcasts every single month, now you have all of this content. You know, you can take clips from your interviews on YouTube, repurpose them with Opus, and then have, you know, months and months of content to post. And so you can say, oh, there's a win there.
00:11:05
Speaker
And then just look at all of the podcast hosts that you now build relationships with. um You know, like you can reach out to hosts and say, hey, I have this going on or hey, like keep in touch. This is now a network, like a network of of business colleagues that can support you, that you can do things with, that you can, you know, become referral partners with. Maybe they want to be your client or they have people that could be your client.
00:11:30
Speaker
So I like to look at all of the benefits that I know will happen. Like, there's no doubt about it. I'm going to get the link. I'm going to get the content. I'm going to get the relationship with the host. And so then when I get leads and clients, I'm like, oh, my God, awesome.
Online Presence and Preparation
00:11:43
Speaker
Like, it's just a surprise. It's not this, like, misaligned expectation that doesn't get fulfilled.
00:11:49
Speaker
you know, the other day you posted ah podcast episode that was something like how to 10x your results from podcast appearances, something of that nature.
00:12:02
Speaker
I will link to that episode in the show notes. But would you mind highlighting some of those things? Because you mentioned one or more of those like repurposing content. I think it was.
00:12:14
Speaker
ah But can you hit on maybe just a few of those? so Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm going to zoom in and get really specific because I think a lot of times people try to make this more complicated. You know, they hear that and they're like, oh, it's like so simple, but it's stupid simple and it works.
00:12:31
Speaker
So like I'm talking Yeah.
00:12:35
Speaker
post about it on your social media do an instagram story tag the host sam i'm so very excited i'm going to be on this show it's coming up i'll post about it when it goes live same thing the day of the recording and then after the episode goes live so you're going to post throughout the process You can also film yourself actually being interviewed.
00:12:54
Speaker
So i could take my phone and put it on my little phone holder thing and actually do kind of a third, like different point of view filming me doing this episode and then use that for content, either B-roll content or actually take a clip of me talking. And I'm like, oh, that that right there would be a good like 30 second clip for Instagram.
00:13:13
Speaker
You know, so that's a good way to um to repurpose the content. Also, send these interviews, send this content. to your email list to if you use like we use SMS marketing. So we have a text list, text it out. We run ads. So we build a big email list with paid ads, but those are really cold leads because they just saw my ad for three seconds before they opted in. So then we say, hey, you're interested in this. You should check out this podcast episode.
00:13:38
Speaker
So now I've got them listening to me for 30 minutes. So I'm warming up my audience. You know, a lot of times when we're not closing enough sales, it's because our audience isn't warm enough. They don't trust us enough. So using the podcast to warm them up.
00:13:50
Speaker
So those are just a few different things. And you'll link to the episodes if you can get all the tips. But it's really like, look at all the different ways. Like if each podcast episode is a sponge, like how many times can you wring it out to get more water out, to get more water out? Because there's so much water.
00:14:08
Speaker
that you can do with a single podcast episode to close more sales, to engage your audience, to generate more leads, and to just increase your positioning and social proof. You must have some prospects come to you that, you know, they don't have the strongest foundation, let's say, for getting something out of podcast guesting. So maybe they have a great message.
00:14:32
Speaker
whether they're an author or what they do in their work, separate from writing, let's say, is fascinating or they're a deep thinker, whatever their thing is, that might be great.
00:14:46
Speaker
But then for a podcast host, perhaps, They, know, I very often want to direct my listeners somewhere because we can only get into so much in this conversation. Even if we go for two hours, there will be threads or paths that I want to follow. And it just doesn't really make a lot of sense because we get disorganized and you and I maybe are really engaged, but the listeners have drifted off. You know, could be any number of things.
00:15:17
Speaker
And so typically I want to be able to point someone to follow you on Instagram or connect with you on LinkedIn, but you must have prospects that come to you and they say, okay, well, I can post an Instagram reel, but I've never really used Instagram or i don't have an email list or whatever else. So in times like those, are there certain ways that you typically handle talking to those clients about, well, you didn't plant the tree 20 years ago.
00:15:47
Speaker
You can plant the tree today. Here's what I recommend doing. It's such a balance. um And one of the more challenging parts of my job is to turn people away because they don't, like they didn't plant the tree. The tree is not planted yet.
00:16:00
Speaker
The seed is still in the back of the nursery. Like it's not... You know, they they have a great story. but They wrote a book. It's up on Amazon. But they have no website. They have no social media presence. And they're like, I have so much value. And I'm like, yes, you do.
00:16:14
Speaker
I don't think I can book you, though, you know? And that's like I literally have gone back and forth on email with people that are just absolutely offended that I wouldn't take their call. And I'm like, i like you have no online presence. Like, it's not, you know...
00:16:30
Speaker
um So that's tough. So I think that's like number one is you do to get booked consistently on quality targeted podcasts. You have to have an online presence. I mean, you have to have a place like my dad always called it.
00:16:42
Speaker
You have to have a home base on the Web. You have to have a place where people if you're going to reach out to a podcast host and say I'd love to be on your show. They need to be able to go and research you and see who you are and what people are saying and what you do. And so that's number one. Now there's the clients of people that they have a home base on the web. They have a website, they have an Instagram. Maybe they don't have the most refined funnel.
00:17:04
Speaker
And so then it's about, okay, how do you close sales? um Because lots of people have grown their business, their word of mouth referrals. They just talk to people on the phone. They close it. They don't have a funnel.
00:17:15
Speaker
And so it's about looking at if somebody hears you on a podcast is How can they convert?
Effective Marketing Strategies
00:17:21
Speaker
What is a way that they can reach out to you? Like I was just advising my client. I'm like, we go to your website.
00:17:28
Speaker
How does the person book a call? but Where is the button? If I have to go searching for it, that's not a good sign. I am looking for it because I'm advising you. Your ideal clients, they're not going to go looking for it. So...
00:17:39
Speaker
You know, it's simple things like getting that book a meeting, that conversion button on the website right at the center. So people's like, where's the eye naturally going to go on the website?
00:17:49
Speaker
Getting it right there. um So just a very simple way for people to convert because people. Your website doesn't have to do a lot of heavy lifting when people hear you on a podcast, because if they're coming to your website after hearing you on a podcast, they're already sold. Like they're like, great, I want to talk to this person.
00:18:06
Speaker
So it's not about selling them on the website. It's about making it easy for them to actually reach out to you. So you just want to make it easy for them. You're reminding me of one of the things that you said in that 10X podcast episode, which was you were talking about a client of yours that I think has something or other on her contact page or something like that, that is, you know, book me for these topics.
00:18:35
Speaker
And I really like that because like, myself have had a history of having a decent sized following in different places, but they've all been very different and there have been breaks in between.
00:18:50
Speaker
So at one point I had a very large following in the early days of Twitter and, um and yet it was in large part because I was early on Reddit and then I would take things from Reddit and repost them.
00:19:07
Speaker
to Twitter and I was, you know, very immature young guy. So they're a bunch of stupid jokes and all of that, which, you know, there was a time where, a middle time sort of where that didn't go so well on Twitter nowadays that I'm not on there anymore.
Enhancing Guest Appearance Effectiveness
00:19:24
Speaker
I think a lot of those, that young male image probably would go very well again. But I, during that time, you know, I had i had actually a decent awareness of these are the types of things that I'm interested in talking about and I need to make it easy for people to tell me that they want to have a conversation or learn more or whatever, which led into me getting into speaking and all that.
00:19:51
Speaker
Now with myself, with podcasting, you know, it, there's never enough time in the day. And so it really helps, I think, to have someone who's booked 30,000 interviews to whether you're working on it or not, to even just say in passing in a call,
00:20:13
Speaker
Well, Eric, maybe you should look into doing this or that, because when you mentioned in that episode, just saying, you know, maybe you book me for X, Y or Z topics makes it so much easier as a I listen to you on one episode. I'm going to check you out because I have my own podcast.
00:20:32
Speaker
And now I know what I might center our episode ah around. Yeah, I mean, marketing is all about making it easy for people to get it, like creating the smoothest possible journey for your ideal target audience to get where you want them to go, whether that's like listening to your podcast or...
00:20:54
Speaker
becoming your client, opting into your email list, following you, like just make it super easy. I think that's one of the biggest pitfalls for people that we're marketing is not there. It's not the thing that they're best at.
00:21:04
Speaker
It's just very clunky. And the way that you could just get good at is like, okay, let me put myself, let me secret shop my own business and put myself in the shoes of of my target audience. If I didn't know this, would it make it easy?
00:21:17
Speaker
Like, would this be easy? Would this make sense to me? Or where might there be confusion? Because as soon as people are confused or they don't know, they're like, they're out of there. You know, what do you see as the common perceptions or misconceptions maybe of prospects that that either someone comes to you or you encounter someone and you think you could really benefit from podcast guesting, but they have some false impressions or misconceptions about podcasting. Are there common ones that you encounter?
00:21:48
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, the biggest one a lot of times is when people, they have no idea how many people listen to podcasts. um Or they haven't they they they're like, yeah, like pretty much everyone listens to podcasts now, like a large percent of the population.
00:22:02
Speaker
But there's a lot of podcasts out there, and so the audience is dispersed. And so they have no conception of how many people are listening to each podcast, how many how many listeners does each podcast have. So they kind of make it up. They're like, yeah, if I get...
00:22:17
Speaker
On a show with like 10,000 listeners, that's that's good. But most shows don't have 10,000 listeners, you know? Most shows have like 200 listeners. And so that's the biggest just ah mystery and misconception is like how many people are going to hear this episode?
00:22:35
Speaker
And then from there, it's just realigning the expectations that it's not... good or bad or neutral. It's just, it is what it is. The audience size is what it is, but it's still super beneficial and you can still grow your business and generate really warm, qualified leads from small audiences if you're in front of the right people.
00:22:56
Speaker
Because when you think about it, if you're in an auditorium with 200 people in those seats, like if you visualize that and picture 200 people who are in your target audience and that are there in that auditorium because they want to hear you talk about your topic,
00:23:09
Speaker
You'd be pumped. Like, that would be awesome. But then when someone's like, do you want to be on a podcast with 200 people? They're like, i don't know if it's worth my time. I'm like, you can wear pajama pants. No one's going to know. Do you find that your clients that are, i don't know, they have more charisma or they're better speakers or that there are certain types of personalities that either measurably get more results out of podcast guesting or they just feel like they're getting more out of it?
00:23:45
Speaker
iy is So yes, the personality, the charisma, the energy, that's all a huge part of it. Like when I'm teaching about podcast guesting, energy is a huge part of it because our clients who see the best results, who get the best ah ah ROI, like tangibly, not just that they feel they're getting good results, but they're like, I'm signing on a lot of clients, closing a lot of sales, I'm getting investors, I'm getting speaking.
00:24:07
Speaker
They all the time are, they're more just, they're charismatic. They're comfortable having a conversation. They have they have aligned expectations like they don't go into it thinking like I need to get sales from every podcast. They're like, hey, this is going to work.
00:24:23
Speaker
Don't know when I'll be super happy when it does. And then it works out always faster for them because they just have the right energy. They're super personable when people are really personable and, you know, charismatic and they they're always open to wherever the conversation goes.
00:24:40
Speaker
That type of energy invites more opportunity because the host will then feel like, oh, they were so open and And the conversation flowed so much that it makes sense that the host would say, hey, what about this? Would you want to partner up on this? Whereas if somebody's kind of closed off and like in their little box, ideas and opportunities and invitations are not going to come in as much because they're kind of closed off to
Choosing and Adjusting Podcast Strategies
00:25:04
Speaker
it.
00:25:04
Speaker
So it is an energetic thing. But then that energy does manifest into like how they are speaking and how they are behaving in the chat, like before the recording starts and then after the recording ends, which is what I call the green room.
00:25:17
Speaker
I would imagine that there are certain clients that you have or prospects that you encounter that, you know, maybe the person is not the most extroverted or energetic or whatever, but the thing that they have to talk about is really perfect for a certain audience, right?
00:25:38
Speaker
And maybe the number of podcasts that are active in that vertical is small, but You know, you have someone that I'm going way, way, way over sort of stereotype or overgeneralize here.
00:25:54
Speaker
But let's just say you have the teacher from Ferris Bueller's Day Off, if anyone remembers that. Bueller. Bueller. Bueller.
00:26:07
Speaker
fueller And yet, if there was a podcast about some aspect of engineering or accounting or science or whatever, just like, and the way their approach is just the facts, ma'am, sort of thing, then you might still be able to pitch someone and and there are 50 listeners in a month on this episode, but you could have a higher return, I suspect. So someone listening to this doesn't have to think, well, I'm just not a speaker.
00:26:40
Speaker
It's more about, I guess, product market fit sort of thing here. Yeah. I mean, you have to be yourself, right? Like there, you know, there's going to be people that are super charismatic and outgoing and that makes sense for for their personality, but it's always about being yourself. You know, I would never want to take somebody that is like that that engineer, you know, super factual. I mean, I'll give you an example because we have a client that does like marketing and AI and he is kind of like a you know, he's got kind of a dry, dry, to I mean, marketing can be very fun, but he is talking about like data and analytics. And so it can be a little bit dry. And so, you know, my feedback to him, he asked he asked me to listen and give him some feedback was just add in more stories. It doesn't, you don't have to be a comedian. You don't have to be super like, you know, entertaining, but when you are giving your information, the tactics, the information, like
00:27:34
Speaker
Add in a story, you know, give an example of like a company you were working with and like what happened in that room. And then there's little things that you can do, like, you know, smile when you're speaking, like you can like, now we're both smiling. Like, you know, there is a difference in your voice versus like, you know, if I'm not smiling, I'm just talking like this. Like you can actually hear a real difference in the tone of voice and the tonality.
00:27:57
Speaker
And most podcast listeners, even though a lot of podcasts are recorded with video on most podcast listeners are audio only. They're just downloading it on their phone, on Apple, Spotify. They're listening.
00:28:08
Speaker
a lot of people listen to podcasts on YouTube, but then they just put the phone down. They're not watching the video. And so it is important to still have an animated voice. So maybe that's not your natural talent, but the more podcasts you do, the better you will get.
00:28:24
Speaker
Yes, I definitely agree with you. i can't tell you how quickly i learned when I started podcasting
Future of Podcasting
00:28:31
Speaker
that I would get annoyed with my own filler words.
00:28:37
Speaker
You know, I had been told previously because I've done a ton of speaking in my career. When I would ad lib, I, or speak off the cuff, I would be more engaging apparently.
00:28:50
Speaker
But then because I was having to think a lot, I would say, um, um, um, more or less. And as soon as I started editing, I realized, oh, that's really annoying.
00:29:02
Speaker
And yet there are venues in which some vocal stuttering or taking a long time to think about things can, or, you know, speaking in partial sentences can be okay because we are doing a one-on-one thing here.
00:29:18
Speaker
I heard you on and episode. I think you might have shared it with me. There was an episode about trauma and grief. Oh, yeah. The Trauma Rewired podcast. Yes. Yes.
00:29:30
Speaker
And it was you and two women, if I recall correctly. Yeah. And so there's a different dynamic there. If you're on a podcast where it's a little bit more talk radio ish, you know, sports radio or politics radio or whatever in there could be four or five people, then Any sort of speaking style can work.
00:29:53
Speaker
There's, again, that product market fit sort of thing. But then also, I think a little bit of it being, what do you want to get out of this? Are you prepared? Do you have somewhere to send people?
00:30:05
Speaker
What's the next step? Like in your emails, you got to have a call to action somewhere to get people to click through, right? Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of different styles of podcasts and different ways to go about it. But that's yeah, that's why I love it is just because everyone can find their place in it.
00:30:19
Speaker
You know, whether it's being a guest or like you said, if there's not a lot of podcasts in your industry, that might be a reason to start your own show. You know, so a lot of times I tell people be a guest, be a guest. But if they're in an industry or they have a target audience that's not widely listening to podcasts, maybe that's a sign they can start the podcast for their industry and that will get more people listening.
00:30:40
Speaker
You mentioned there being a lot of podcasts. And I think I recall a few years ago, I encountered some stat that the if you get something like a thousand listens in or downloads or whatever in the first month, you're in the top 5% of most listened to podcasts. Now I might not have my stats exactly correct, but if we take that as being directionally correct,
00:31:09
Speaker
then, you know, there there are a lot of podcasts and there aren't a lot of listens. You know, your listener has only so many minutes in the day to devote their ears to something.
00:31:24
Speaker
And so do you see the podcasting space changing either broadly, podcasting just generally, or podcast guesting changing over time?
00:31:38
Speaker
I mean, I don't think the guesting strategy is going to change that much because it's been pretty like the strategy at its core has been pretty consistent for the last 12 years. Now, what has changed is the fact that podcasts are on video now.
00:31:53
Speaker
You know, when I started for the first five, six, seven years, probably up until 2020 when COVID hit, everything was audio only. Like that's why people did podcasts is because they wanted an audio only platform. Like it was weird to do a video. I mean,
00:32:08
Speaker
There wasn't really Zoom back then. Like it was just Skype audio only. um So we've added video, more podcasts as the budgets get bigger, as people have budgets, they they'll do in person, they'll rent out a studio, they'll build a studio, they'll prioritize in person. So that is definitely happening.
00:32:24
Speaker
But when we take away the tech and video or audio and just look at the strategy, still a networking strategy, still a long form content strategy. Like I don't see that changing at all.
00:32:36
Speaker
Yeah, I'm really just curious about as, you know, there are more or less podcasts, as there are more or less people looking to market or or guest in podcasts.
00:32:51
Speaker
Let's say I am marketing a business and I think maybe podcast guesting. Well, has it changed much over the last five years or the last 12 months? You know, you mentioned there were some differences with COVID.
00:33:09
Speaker
Some things changed. And maybe things haven't changed so much in the last 12 months, but are you seeing that the puck is moving to a new space and in 24 to 48 months, I'm envisioning podcasting or podcast guesting is going to be different.
00:33:28
Speaker
I am not seeing the buck moving. I see. i mean, there's still a lot more people that want to be a guest than host a show. There's a lot like there's the demand for podcast guest spots is very high.
00:33:43
Speaker
um So podcast hosts have their have their pick, you know, because if they have a weekly show, they're doing 52 interviews a year. They probably have 500 people that want one of those 52 spots minimum.
00:33:55
Speaker
You know, when you look at how many times per day, per week, a podcast host is being pitched by somebody who wants to be on their show. So I certainly hope and I do think more and more people are going to start their own podcast. And that is just very helpful because that creates more spots for people to be interviewed. But it also levels out the playing field a little bit. Like I think that when guests, when people who start out as guests start their own show, they have a lot more understanding and empathy around like what goes into having your own podcast.
00:34:26
Speaker
um I mean, I've had like we've had our podcast. I started in 2014. We went on hiatus for a couple of years and we just brought it back and like You know, we're not doing guests yet. Margie and I, my business partner and I are co-hosting episodes. But I mean, just the amount of work of like recording, planning out the episode, recording, sending it to an editor, getting it back, making the show notes, creating the graphics, sending it to the website team, uploading it, then promoting it.
00:34:51
Speaker
It's lot of work. Yeah. And it's worth it, but it is a lot of work. So, I mean, my hope is that more people start podcasts because I do think it will create more space for people to, it'll just up the quality of the industry, I think, when more people get into it.
00:35:10
Speaker
I don't want to ask you to opine on something that you might not have an opinion about. So if so, just just tell me. But, you know, there are, i was just talking to someone yesterday about Google's Notebook LM and within Notebook LM, they have this audio overview feature, which if anyone has not tried that,
00:35:31
Speaker
It is effectively 20 or so minute podcast that is AI generated. And at least in my experience, it's always a man and a woman discussing whatever the topic is that was in your AI chat.
00:35:47
Speaker
And you can upload files. Like one version that I did was I took all of these personality tests that I had taken, Myers-Briggs and Big Five and whatever else. And I didn't give it any direction. I just did create audio overview. And then there was a 23 minute segment analyzing me and it did an amazing job actually.
00:36:05
Speaker
And it's very podcast like, but I believe that there are other services that are little bit more podcast like, and I know that, or it seems to me like voice replication is really primed for me putting out more of a thought piece in audio.
00:36:28
Speaker
You know, rather than a blog post, I just replicate my voice and or a fake person's voice. And I have my audio blog post. like Yeah, it's a podcast.
00:36:39
Speaker
But do you have any feelings about or predictions about AI or something like that changing or influencing the podcast guesting space? Or does that feel like it's on the fringe maybe?
00:36:55
Speaker
I feel like it's different. It's two different things. I don't see it changing because podcast guesting is great because it is a conversation. um Whereas ai it it already is coming into the audio space. Like you said, it can replicate voices. Yeah.
00:37:11
Speaker
you know I have a friend who has like an audio blog. like He writes his blog post and then he reads it. you know And it is his voice. Now I'm going, is it? No, he wouldn't do that. He wouldn't use AI.
00:37:22
Speaker
But I'm like, it's possible. you know I'm sure you can have AI like read your blog post. um And so I think that's a really creative way to leverage the audio medium.
00:37:33
Speaker
i mean, there's people who like to consume content in all different ways. Like i i don't like to read. I'll be honest. I prefer to listen. And so having something to listen to or a video or something where I can like listen at one point five x speed is preferable to me.
00:37:49
Speaker
um But I don't see that impacting podcast guesting because it is more of a conversation and networking strategy. i do see some people are trying to get really creative with an interview show. Like I had somebody invite me like, hey, would love to have you on my show.
00:38:05
Speaker
And how it works is i'm I'm going to give you some questions and then you record ah video with your answer. And I was like, ah, I don't like it. but I was like, i ah I do podcasts because I like to talk to people.
00:38:20
Speaker
If you're going to tell me to record a six minute video by myself, like I was like a no on that one. It just did not feel aligned. I'm like, no, it's great. We have this big audience. I'm like, yeah, but the whole point for me is that I make a connection with another person. And if I can't make that connection with you, like you just want me to send you a video, like it just did not feel right for me. So what to each their own, you know, that might work really well for certain people, but it was just no for me.
00:38:43
Speaker
Yeah, you're reminding me of, I won't name names, but I do know of someone who has put out maybe 20 or 30 episodes on their podcast. So not being a name, a celebrity or influencer whatever, it's still fairly small in terms of numbers, likely successful by whatever their metrics are, but they didn't want the audience to have to listen to the same format or listen to their voice.
00:39:14
Speaker
Really, you know, they wanted to innovate or be different a little bit. And so it is a conversation, but then the host is edited out. So I found it really interesting to listen to this podcast because you come on here And then i string together your statements in ah manner that I guess is similar to maybe like, is it NPR that does StoryCorps?
00:39:44
Speaker
Yeah. Other things like this, just new segments where it's read by a person who is not the host. And, you know, you're reminding me of there's a lot of value in innovating or trying new things.
00:39:59
Speaker
And it might just not land with certain people. It might not work with certain guests, but it's also, I think one value in hosting a podcast and also being a guest is that, you know, for certain markets, for certain businesses,
00:40:16
Speaker
You only need one out of those 200 people in the audience to say yes or follow up for it to matter. And so if I were to edit this podcast and it was now only you talking, Jessica, it's entirely possible that that is really awesome for one listener. And that's the one you need.
00:40:35
Speaker
Yeah. So I did a podcast like that. So I was on a show, a regular podcast interview. And then the host and the producer said, so we have another podcast. And it's exactly the format you described. And they're like, would you be interested? It's but really short. It would take like, they were like, do you have like an extra 10 or 15 minutes? And I was like, sure, I'm down.
00:40:52
Speaker
It was interesting because I really had to be mindful about my answers, right? Like sort of almost like repeating the question as part of the answer. Like, I'll tell you about myself. like it And it I found it kind of fun. I don't think I would want to do every podcast interview like that. But it was I do think that doing different types of podcasts and different formats sharpens your skills as a speaker. It makes you think a little bit about what you're doing and what you're saying. And yeah, it was it was interesting. And I think it turned out good.
00:41:24
Speaker
I listened. It was like, oh, this is this is cool. But I mean, it did lose the like the conversation feel of like an interview like this. If I were looking to guest on podcasts, do I look for things that fit my style of, you know, interaction? Do I look for the number of listeners that a show has?
00:41:44
Speaker
What do I look for if I'm looking to guest on podcasts? Yeah. I mean, if you're looking to guests on podcasts, I would definitely look at who the host of the show is and who is their targeted audience um because you want there to be alignment there. And then also what is the like the types of shows.
00:42:01
Speaker
And it takes time to figure that out over, you know, I've been guessing for 12 years but like when I look at like a year at a time say okay let me look at the last six to 12 months of my podcast appearances which one did i which podcast felt best to me which host did I get along with the most which formats were my favorite and then like I'll tell my booking team that I'll say okay love these let's do more of these and it's okay like you got to try out a lot of different formats and there's still value in getting visibility on a lot of different shows But you have to test it out. It's a little bit more difficult to target based off of like style of interviewer because you got to like listen to a whole episode of every show you pitch before you know that. And I'm not saying you shouldn't do that, but it does make it a little bit difficult to really nail down.
00:42:45
Speaker
And so many interview based podcasts are pretty similar. Every host has there's some nuance and every host has like a slightly different style. But at the end of the day, an interview based podcast is an interview based podcast. And so it's like looking at, you know, maybe there's like an age demographic that you get along with the best, um you know, or gender or, you know, any number of things.
00:43:09
Speaker
You were remind me of another thing. So having most of my career in marketing, I've worked a lot with public relations, though I've never been explicitly the PR person, except to the extent that you consider some things online, digital PR, whatever.
00:43:28
Speaker
But One thing that is important for people who are authors of books, for example, is if you're pitching yeah or if you're promoting your book, it really helps to pitch one chapter rather than pitching the whole book because chapters tend to have just the one point or the one takeaway or the one story.
00:43:51
Speaker
And so, you know, you can have all different types of books and all different types of chapters, different links and all that. But let's just say that you have a book on leadership. Well, more than likely, you have a chapter that is focused on something that is narrower, like, you know, things that I learned in the first year of being a manager.
00:44:14
Speaker
And so then when you go to promote your book, I've been through this numerous times with clients. It tends to be a lot more compelling for me as a host to hear the thing that your audience is going to walk away with is the the hard one lessons in that first year of managing rather than i have a book about leadership and So then when I'm looking to go and guest, I have to really keep in mind, I know I'm amazing and I'm this, you know, multifaceted person, but it's so hard to communicate that in one or two hours, you know, but is something that would probably be more compelling to a podcast host is here's the one thing that I can guarantee is going to be valuable to your audience or I can speak deeply to.
00:45:09
Speaker
Yeah, that's, I mean, that's what we see when I'm, when we're pitching our clients to podcasts, when I'm getting booked, the host will tell me, okay, this was the topic that really I'm interested in. Like they hone in on one topic on the one sheet and one suggested topic that resonates for them and their audience and they'll go there. So I totally agree with that. You don't want to pitch a whole book or a whole story or multiple different things.
00:45:33
Speaker
You want to say, this is the topic that I think will be best for your audience. And then the host can say like, Yeah, or nay. Or maybe, yeah. yeah So I don't recall if you said this, but coming around a bit to, you know, its sort of a call to action, people looking you up and so on.
00:45:52
Speaker
Maybe it's on LinkedIn or maybe it's on your website. Perhaps you said it. Do you work primarily with small to medium sized businesses? Yeah, I mean, our clients are entrepreneurs and small business owners. So typically like coaches and consultants, most of our clients are six to seven figure a year businesses, you know, so small businesses by definition. But then our podcasts are like small to mid tier podcasts. So anywhere from like 100 listeners to, you know, we've booked on shows that have thousands of listeners, but it's kind of in that like small, yeah, small to mid range size.
00:46:25
Speaker
Do you let's say, have verticals that you specialize in for your clients and sort of understanding the type of podcasts that they would go on and so on? With media, it's all about where you have relationships and where you have connections.
00:46:39
Speaker
And what is your expertise in terms of like how to position ah certain type of expert? So like if a coach comes to us, we know how to position a coach, right? It's about their story. It's about their expertise. It's about their modality. Like that's something that we're experts at.
00:46:53
Speaker
But if somebody comes to me and they're like, I wrote a sci-fi novel. I'm like, I don't know how to. I don't. Who reads sci-fi? Like, I don't know. That is just not my expertise.
00:47:04
Speaker
So I am sure there is a way to market sci-fi novels. They are a very popular genre, not my expertise. Right. So there's some type of genres and verticals that I just don't know. And then also there's some type of um let's go back to like business owners.
00:47:19
Speaker
There some industries and types of businesses that this just isn't a good strategy for. um Like I had a call yesterday. with a PR firm. And she's like, we I've been really a lot of trouble booking one of our clients on podcasts. And I'm like, well, what's their business? And she goes, he sells cars like he's a used car dealership. And I'm like, I don't think podcasts are the right platform for that type of business because he needs a local market.
00:47:44
Speaker
Like unless I find a car that I'm in love with and maybe drive an hour for it. But if I'm buying a used car, I'm not driving more than 20 minutes, probably. So, you know, podcasts are it's global, right? People are listening all over the country, all over the world. Like you're building thought leadership with people who can follow you online.
00:48:03
Speaker
And so if you have a local business or, you know, sometimes we get like massage therapists, like, again, I'm not going to drive more than 30 minutes probably to get a massage. So if I hear a masseuse on a podcast and they live in two states away,
00:48:17
Speaker
I mean, maybe they've got great value and I enjoy the episode, but they're not going to see me as a client after that, you know, because I'm not going to travel to them. um The exception to that would be physicians. Like ah we have a potential client right now who's a plastic surgeon.
00:48:32
Speaker
People fly for good plastic surgery, let me tell you. You know, they're not prioritizing locality. They're going they're going to get their you know, they're going to get their nose done. They're going to find the best in the country to do that. And so that is like a local in-person business where it would make sense for more of a global like national reach.
00:48:48
Speaker
So you got to know, is this the right strategy for some businesses? It just doesn't make sense. I suppose keeping with the example of car dealership, you know, I'm aware of a business that sells classic cars. and And in for this particular business, it's super high end, very expensive. A lot of the cars are $10 million dollars plus.
00:49:15
Speaker
And, you know, we're talking about cars that were made anywhere in the world, but, you know, it could be something special that was made in England in the 1930s or whatever.
00:49:26
Speaker
And, you know, the amount of money in their one warehouse that I've been to or value has to be, you know, around half a billion dollars.
00:49:37
Speaker
And They, as a result, have a global audience. You know, there are people from India who purchase from them and, you know, a lot of people in the United States, of course. And they said that they told me that this particular business had about 400 clients that were active, as in they would purchase or sell a vehicle about once every 24 months.
00:50:04
Speaker
And so 400, it's not a big list by any means, but your prospect list might very well be 10 times that. But one of the things that would lead me to believe that, you know, podcasting might be an aspect of their branding, but not necessarily an aspect of lead generation would be that they told me that they are one of three businesses in the United States that are like them.
00:50:34
Speaker
you know, that have these super high-end classic cars. And the other two businesses actually have a different business model. And i i I won't divulge too much more, but but the considering that there aren't a lot of places to go for things like this,
00:50:53
Speaker
it It seems to me like I already know about them if I'm in the market or I'm going to find them very quickly. And so while I would advocate that if they have a personality as a CEO or one of their leaders that you really might be awesome as a podcaster or a podcast guest, I suspect you're not going to get a lot of leads from it.
00:51:17
Speaker
So you need to do it for some other reason. And to that's, you know, again, sticking with the cars, it's not local regional and yet, and it is global, but there are things that would lead me to believe that you might get a better return from other activities.
00:51:34
Speaker
Yeah. And that's like that business that you're talking about. that's The, you know, um like $10 million, dollars like antique cars, people, car enthusiasts. Ooh, there is is a hot community. I'm sure there's a lot of like car enthusiasts podcasts.
00:51:48
Speaker
That's a strategy where I would say, if you have that type of business, Start your own show. Be the hub. Be the place where enthusiasts come to listen. Because there's probably not like a lot of different podcasts that you could be a guest on because they're probably like enthusiast podcasts where it's like two co-hosts that are together and maybe it's not an interview format.
00:52:08
Speaker
But that's a type of business and industry where there are some times where people are like, but there's so much opportunity and podcasts for me. Great. Start a show. Because if you go on a tour, there's not that many shows to be a guest on, then your road is kind of short.
00:52:23
Speaker
But if you start a podcast, like you could help build the category. Actually, that's really close to something that I talk with some organizations about. I was just talking to a woman that ran a local pet rescue not long ago.
00:52:38
Speaker
And were talking about generating more funds for her nonprofit. And they only do a very narrow... thing in their space and in their region.
00:52:50
Speaker
And I talked to her about, imagine you have a bazaar or a farmer's market. Now you're going to go there and you're going to sell produce or honey or crafts or whatever else.
00:53:03
Speaker
And if you could sell all of those things, well, then you could be a Walmart or some big store, but you don't. And maybe you it's not even your best use of time to have a booth that you're going to take from farmer's market to farmer's market.
00:53:23
Speaker
But Would you, might you be able to gather every seller together and create your own bazaar or farmer's market? And then when someone says, i have a question, i have a need for a certain type of product.
00:53:39
Speaker
I don't really know where to find that product. They think of, well, who runs the place where things like that are sold? And that if it was you, Jessica, then I think, well, Jessica's going to know.
00:53:52
Speaker
yeah And now you may only do podcast guesting, right? and You don't do podcast production. But all of a sudden, by putting yourself at the center of facilitating commerce, if I can call it that,
00:54:05
Speaker
You help to raise your profile and such that when I Google or when I think of this space, I always think about you.
00:54:16
Speaker
Yeah. Even though you might only sell the one thing. and Exactly. So, Jessica, you mentioned, we both mentioned your podcast. You do podcast guesting.
00:54:27
Speaker
You have, I think it was, you have booked 800 clients. Did I Yeah, we've had over 800 clients and we've booked on over 30,000. We've booked over 30,000 podcast interviews.
00:54:38
Speaker
we booked over thirty thousand podcast interviews That's awesome. I do recommend that people check out your podcast because I think the most recent episode was 20, maybe 30 minutes. And yeah I feel like an advantage of the model that you have over something like this, for example, is that you really boil things down to it we're going to take what could have been an hour long discussion and we're going to turn it into the 10 minutes that makes it actionable or just highly informative. So you get 80% of the benefits for 20% of the time. So I recommend that people check it out.
00:55:18
Speaker
And then you mentioned Instagram Reels. I've seen you post on LinkedIn. I get your emails. So there are all these ways to connect with you. But could you say them explicitly so that people know where to go?
00:55:32
Speaker
Yeah. So if you like listening to podcasts, which you probably do, if you're listening to this, um the Interview Connections podcast, um that's what I would recommend subscribing to. And we have it on our website and then like all the podcast platforms. So if you go to interviewconnections.com, that's our home base on the web. So you can get to our podcast and our services page. And then our Instagram is interviewconnections.
00:55:54
Speaker
And then on LinkedIn, it's Jessica Rhodes, R-H-O-D-E-S. And I post a lot on my LinkedIn and on Instagram. Awesome. Well, I appreciate that.
00:56:05
Speaker
I appreciate you being here. And I'm going to leave you with one last question. Do you have any parting words of wisdom or things that, whether we touched on them or not, you would like people to remember about your business or podcast guesting or anything else?
00:56:21
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's a slow burn. Like podcast casting is a long-term strategy. It's really brand building. It's not an instant gratification strategy. So it does take faith and belief in the platform to really get the maximum benefits. I mean, if you talk to any podcast host, they'll like actively affirm that it's not something that like pays off overnight. Usually it's at least six months before you really build up an engaged audience, whether that's 50 or 100 people, and then it grows from there.
00:56:51
Speaker
um so stick with it long term. It's so funny how podcast hosts, they all know because they have their own show that it's a long term strategy. And then guests are like, why didn't it pay off in a month? And every host is like, do you know how long it took to build my audience?
00:57:06
Speaker
So just stick. If you feel called to use podcasting, commit to it long term because it doesn't pay off overnight. typically. I think that's a great place to leave it. So once again, Jessica, I appreciate you being here. I was really looking forward to it because of what I heard on Jason Shupp's podcast. So it's been awesome to have you here.
00:57:23
Speaker
Thank you for having me. Thank you. Hey, thank you for listening. I hope you got a lot out of today's conversation. If you enjoyed the episode, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe, and please share it with someone you know who'd appreciate this kind of information.
00:57:42
Speaker
If you want to bring this kind of thinking to your own business, check out mine at inboundandagile.com. We specialize in helping leaders with challenges around marketing, communications, and leadership so they can inspire real action in their people and audiences.
00:58:00
Speaker
Thanks again for listening, and I hope you'll come back for future episodes.