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sustainable lighting design treacle studio uk
98 Plays3 years ago
Discussion topics include circular design, waste management, wellness lighting, recycling, standardization challenges for sustainable lighting fixtures, and more.
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode 58
00:00:11
Speaker
Welcome to episode 58 of the Green and Healthy Places podcast, in which we discuss the themes of wellbeing and sustainability in real estate and hospitality today. I'm your host, Matt Morley, founder of Biophilico Wellness Real Estate and Healthy Buildings.
Interview with Fay Robinson on Sustainable Lighting
00:00:28
Speaker
In this episode, I'm in the UK talking to Fay Robinson, founder of Trickle Studio in Manchester. It's an independent architectural lighting consultancy
00:00:39
Speaker
They provide bespoke lighting designs for interior and exterior spaces, but we're really focused in on the sustainability angle here. Fay is a wealth of information on circular design, waste management, wellness lighting, recycling, and the standardization challenges for sustainable lighting fixtures to come just around the corner in the industry. This is a fascinating discussion. Here she is, Fay Robinson from Trickel.
00:01:08
Speaker
Let's jump in. I know you've got
Challenges in Lighting Waste and Recycling
00:01:10
Speaker
over a decade or 15 years plus experience in the lighting industry. We've had conversations privately in the past about
00:01:16
Speaker
sustainability within this sector. And I think it's often an neglected corner of the overall sustainability picture within an interior fit-out or buildings and architecture. So I'd love to hear your perspective, particularly on one area. Let's start with that around waste in lighting. So what are the main sources of waste during the fit-out process as it relates to light? And then I guess at the end of the life of those luminaires or those products that you put in.
00:01:43
Speaker
Yeah, I'd say definitely kind of across the board. It's that whole kind of strip out process because it's all been based around a very kind of like linear approach. It's kind of like disconnect there. So I see probably more in the kind of office world at the moment, the office sector with
00:02:07
Speaker
entire scheme is being removed from a building, stripping it right back to the core, the shell, and then effectively putting everything, everything's new that goes in there. And it's kind of those missed opportunities really in terms of reusing, perhaps furniture, finishes, you know,
00:02:30
Speaker
wall finishes, floor finishes, and then of course luminaires. So invariably, in most cases I'd say definitely luminaires are removed and that's it. You don't really get to hear about what happens beyond that. So that's definitely one of the things that's always been a big question mark for me in terms of that whole kind of process.
00:02:58
Speaker
So we talk often about the idea of putting in LED lights as an initial step towards having a greener approach to lighting, but what opportunities do you see then around recycling those luminaires? I mean, we've discussed the idea of waste being an issue, reuse one option. Is there a recycling solution in that? Like what does designers need to do or what could be done in terms of creating luminaires that can be recycled?
Recycling Processes and Key Organizations
00:03:25
Speaker
Is that happening at the moment?
00:03:27
Speaker
Well, there's lots of ways that you can kind of address it, the whole kind of process. So we've had since 2005 the Wii directive. So waste electrical and electronic equipment recycling, the directive that basically reduces landfill
00:03:53
Speaker
caused by those products. So essentially, there's kind of two levels of how this is approached. And the onus is generally on the manufacturer to apply an amount to the product when you purchase it to the recycling afterlife of that product. Now, as with most
00:04:21
Speaker
kind of directives, it can get quite bureaucratic in terms of designating, you know, the process, when you inherit a space, who's responsible from that product if you've not necessarily selected yourself. But there are two bodies in particular in the UK that I know of that are working on making that process simpler. So there's a bunch called Lumicon.
00:04:46
Speaker
And there's also a bunch called Recolite. Now, these are non-for-profit organizations that basically help kind of smooth that process out. So that's something that on a B2B or a B2C scenario, there's options there.
00:05:08
Speaker
to help the process of recycling luminaires when you have them on site and you can't reuse them. Then there's also the next level, which is the remanufacturing approach. There's a little crossover there, I think, with Lumicon and Recolide, but also there's a collection of organizations that are popping up to deal with or help solve that problem.
00:05:38
Speaker
So I know there's a few, I think Ricoh do fall into that category, but then there's also a bunch called EGG lighting that also look at that. And then several of the manufacturers are offering like a remanufacturing process. I know I've done some stuff with Trica before and I could rattle it.
00:06:00
Speaker
quite a few off for you, but there are options there. And I think it's that it's just informing people. And one thing we're very good at in the lighting industry, and I'm sure it's kind of, you know, sector-wide, industry-wide, we are very good at telling each other about it, but not kind of spreading the word. So, yeah, that's something that I'd like to try and do. So there's definitely options there. It's just, you know, educating, really.
00:06:29
Speaker
And just to dig into that a little bit, the idea of remanufacturing. So obviously that would then, when we can get into circular design, that was going to be my next question, but remanufacturing, that does imply that somehow we need to get that luminaire and those light fixtures all the way back to the manufacturer from the time of the strip out, right? So, do you see that happening? Or is that the main pain point in terms of the awareness that you're, or the lack of awareness and therefore things aren't getting recycled?
00:06:57
Speaker
Definitely the lack of awareness there. But there are people, in fact, you find that it's kind of like the smaller companies that have got more agility that are kind of honing in on this. So they will not only, let's say retail, for example. So there are companies that will actually buy back the luminaires. So if you wanted to completely refit,
00:07:26
Speaker
your space that will buy back the Lumina and then they will update the LED, the light source element in there and then resell that. So
Strategies for Remanufacturing and Standardization
00:07:39
Speaker
that's one option. And then of course there is the full 360 where it goes back to the manufacturer. But obviously
00:07:49
Speaker
What's inherent with that is that the labeling system has always been there on that luminaire. It could have been there for goodness knows how many years. So you kind of need these kind of companies and resources that kind of fill in the gaps that would be missing otherwise. So in other words, say I've got a 50-room boutique hotel and we're doing a sustainability plan for them.
00:08:16
Speaker
So they've got half of the rooms are fitted out with LEDs, but there's some that clearly aren't. And so we start looking into this and we think, okay, well, first of all, we need to take out some of these luminaires and they might have been there for a decade or so. Who knows?
00:08:29
Speaker
that rather than just putting that into a random white electoral goods recycling bin, there may be the opportunity to remanufacture those. But how would we then, how does one find out? It's about identifying, first of all, those middlemen potentially, those companies that can buy and refurbish essentially and resell. That would be something that wasn't on my radar, but could be a solution.
00:08:52
Speaker
for that exact scenario around, for example, yeah, refit in a hotel, they want to upgrade, move on to a more sustainable solution. And so that kind of intermediary could be a quick solution in a sense, right? And they then give them a new life for those fixtures. Totally. I mean, it's kind of a whole mind shift, isn't it, really? You're almost relying on almost a stop take of what you've already got in these spaces to kind of preemptively line up
00:09:22
Speaker
you know, who you go to, what your options are. It's against that shift, isn't it, from that kind of linear approach. We need to kind of, you know, all these different kind of elements that we now need to consider. And there are people now arriving on the scene that can kind of help out with that whole process. So yeah, I definitely think that would be the way forward.
00:09:47
Speaker
I think that's a really interesting idea and I'm literally going through it at the moment whereby facilities management in a hotel team.
00:09:55
Speaker
There's a bunch of electoral goods that just somehow break down, end up possibly on the rubbish tip. We don't quite know, but the idea of working with and advising and providing those solutions to the FM team so that they don't have that headache because it can clearly see, it's okay, what do we do? Our housekeeping sees a luminaire breaks, facilities management come in, they take it away, it just ends up in the bin, might just about end up in a recycling bin if we're lucky.
00:10:23
Speaker
But if, for example, I or someone helping that team to think about these things or to say, look, here are the solutions, X, Y and Z go into X bin or Y bin, or they can be called upon to come and take these things away. And therefore you think sometimes it's about making it as easy as possible, right? So finding those companies.
00:10:41
Speaker
presented them to the client and hoping that that then leads to, you know, as little waste as possible. So that's sort of almost a zero waste approach when it comes to, for example, the life for things in luminaires. Totally, totally. Yeah. Yeah.
00:10:59
Speaker
Well, it's circular design, isn't it? We're talking around the subject, but I know it's an area that you're interested in. So I wondered how standardized and interoperable are most light fixtures and component parts? Because obviously, that circular idea, one thing that is becoming increasingly apparent is around plastics, for example, when plastics are mixed. If you have more than one type of plastic,
00:11:25
Speaker
There's no way that's ever getting recycled. So single types of plastic like PET, PET, that's actually not too bad in the sense that we can do something with it. We know it's just made of one type of plastic, it can go into that bin, it can be recycled and it can be given a new life. It can at least stay in the circle. How does that work with the lighting world? What are your challenges? What is happening at the moment? What could be done that isn't being done? How do you see that space? Yeah, I mean,
00:11:54
Speaker
Yeah, again, there are bodies that have kind of popped up. I think the main issue for the lighting industry at the moment, it's the speed that LEDs have kind of progressed in terms of the technology of them. It's smaller, brighter, everybody's kind of ploughed ahead.
00:12:21
Speaker
on that narrative and essentially, we've tried to, because it moves so quickly, we've tried to shoehorn this technology into existing luminaries. So I'm saving time on an R&D element that maybe should have been considered a little bit more, but we kind of understand, I understand that you're trying to sell product.
00:12:51
Speaker
But people seized upon this. And I think really the kind of cleanest way it's been done is potentially, if you think of like domestic lamps, LED lamps that we've probably all now starting to use, that's probably the cleanest kind of transition that's happened. The easiest, you know, work with a light bulb and essentially, you know, put the LED in there.
00:13:20
Speaker
It's easier because we've got, you know, the fixings there are kind of prerequisite. We've got the kind of bayonet cap and a decent screws cap. And it's what we've got to work with. So it's quite good in terms of the more kind of architectural side of luminaires because of that kind of speed that the LED technology has happened. And the fact we've shoehorned in this technology into existing shapes of luminaires.
00:13:46
Speaker
there's been a bit of a disconnect there where you come to recycle and you can't just pop the light source out. You've got to remove the whole luminaire because one isn't detachable from the other. So, in particular, there's an organisation called Zaga.
00:14:08
Speaker
which is trying to standardize that kind of connectivity within luminaires, but also along the chain there as well in terms of how drivers then connect to the light source and how that driver then connects to the controls side of things. So that kind of standardization and making the whole lighting installation serviceable is what they're trying to work towards.
00:14:37
Speaker
So there's a group of manufacturers and specialists involved in that. So I'm keeping an eye on that and just seeing how that pans out really. So I'd say that's the more prominent kind of a group that's dealing with this at the moment. And then obviously what we've talked about before in terms of the recycling side of things
00:15:04
Speaker
remanufacture is the other route. I think you, you aim, you introduce a quite a, you know, a big idea there, in a sense, one thinks about, you know, I'm always interested in that what happened in the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, right, where at some point, someone had to standardize screws.
00:15:22
Speaker
First of all, invent a screw and then standardize them, just like they did with railroad tracks. And they're still having issues with railroad tracks today where the tracks themselves aren't. I think it's something between how the Chinese do it and how they do it in the Middle East or something. They're trying to sort of, yeah, create a railroad between the two. And it's almost as if there is a need to go through a second transformation for a greener economy.
00:15:52
Speaker
Not along just standardization lines for its own sake to make building these products easier, but in terms of that circular design component, they need to be standardized almost for a different end, not to make everyone's lives easier, interoperable, but interoperable and inter-recyclable. And that's a whole other, that's a big idea to get one's head around as an industry. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally, totally.
00:16:17
Speaker
It's that thing as well. You can understand it from a manufacturer's point of view as well. How do you define your product beyond everybody else's? It's sharing of information as well now that it relies quite heavily on. It's a complete shift.
00:16:44
Speaker
in mindset, and you can understand that it's going to be maybe smaller steps to start, but we need to pick up a pace a little bit, I think, definitely. I think there are examples. They've just passed an EU legislation around USBC charging cables, really standardizing that from, I think it's 2025, when it's around how we're all
00:17:08
Speaker
what cables we are to buy and be allowed to use with our mobile phones so that there's less waste because of all that, not just convenience, but also a huge amount of waste, apparently, when you look at the figures. So, you know, there's small steps, as you say, it's perhaps an industry-wide problem in your case. But digging into some of your work and what you do around perhaps a case study or two or examples, you've
00:17:31
Speaker
you can think of from your history of where you've been able to integrate a slightly more circular approach or where you've been able to find a win within the otherwise chaotic scene of recycling or not within lighting. So are there any examples from your past that you could describe to us to give us a sense of how it can be an opportunity and actually within reach for lighting designers to use a bit more circular design principle?
00:17:57
Speaker
Totally. I mean, we're very fortunate at the moment within the industry. Well, it's actually launched in 2021. We've got the TM66 circular economy document, Technical Miranda.
00:18:16
Speaker
And essentially that's been written by people within the lighting industry. And it's got some very useful kind of crib sheets that run alongside that. So we have the questions or we have prompts basically both on the manufacturing and design side to apply. And that's something that I will be or have been applying to projects.
00:18:47
Speaker
It's not just a case of, I've done quite a bit of light art recently and even with that kind of element, something that's a temporary installation, I'm thinking about how
00:19:03
Speaker
And once those luminaires have been used in that installation, what happens to them afterwards? It's that thinking beyond your initial handover, you know, that you've got responsibility beyond that. So one in particular was when I worked on the Havelock woven scheme, which was a light art installation. And that basically used a lot of LED tape.
00:19:33
Speaker
effectively and what's happened is I've worked with the integrated team on that and we have basically
00:19:43
Speaker
donated that LED to a scheme within Manchester, which is helping to re-home, you know, people without homes effectively, the homeless is a scheme there. And that LED is going into that installation, you know, to light these spaces. So it's got a life beyond that initial installation. So I think that's quite a prominent
00:20:12
Speaker
an interesting one because it's generally a temporary installation to start. But I can move on to... Let me ask a quick question on that one. So the intermediary then between yourselves and the second life that was given to those LEDs, that was a specific lighting related organization or that was more of a sort of interiors in general?
00:20:40
Speaker
I worked with a team there, a manufacturer effectively, who helped install this creation. And then we worked together to try and find another route forward.
00:20:55
Speaker
you know for the for the luminae we were you know we examined whether we could reuse it in the fit out of the actual space and then we also had a backup scenario as well where it may not work necessarily with the interior scheme because as you know
00:21:13
Speaker
you have so many different people involved in that kind of process. It's generally a different team that you work with on a core scheme than it is on the fit-out side. So we basically needed to plan B in case it didn't work with the scheme that was intended for the fit-out. So yeah, we worked with
00:21:39
Speaker
various charities in Manchester just to see what was, you know, if anybody would be interested in taking up that. And yeah, they'd be our handoff.
00:21:50
Speaker
So there's, particularly on small scale or rather short term projects, that's to do with the scale, more the duration of a project. It's an almost, it's more acute because clearly the end of that, at least the first sort of circle of its life is within sight. And so there's more of an onus on you to think about what happens afterwards. But you can see how it also connects with the idea of
00:22:15
Speaker
within a building beginning to plan ahead for the end of the life of those luminaires for when it comes so that you have a plan in place already. So whether it's a short term or a mid-term, you know where it's going to go. You have a plan. Of course, it might not work out that way. You might need a plan B or a plan C, but you have at least the plan A lined up for what happens when, yeah, I like that. And are there particular brands that you're favoring at the moment in terms of
00:22:43
Speaker
brands that are really on board with the idea of circular economy, circular design, and reducing waste. Are there any that you could reference for people who are interested in understanding what the opportunities are? Yeah, totally. So I'm doing a lot of work at the moment with Orluna, who I think really have
00:23:03
Speaker
set standard in terms of the whole circular economy approach within Luminares. They've got the whole the labelling system ready, the return system set up and ready to go. Oh, boxes ticked in terms of assessing them alongside that
00:23:22
Speaker
that TM66 document that I mentioned previously. But I'm also looking at, like I said, smaller and more agile companies. So there's definitely a bunch, a couple of companies in particular that I've been looking at as well, a bunch called Lumiad, who are a small team actually using 3D printing.
00:23:50
Speaker
to produce luminaires now, but at the core of that, you know, the material they're using is the corn or the sugar cane. Is it PLA material that they use, which is, can effectively, it's an industrial process, but it can be broken down and recycled effectively. So they were
00:24:18
Speaker
an interesting bunch and I'll be keeping my eye on those guys. It's like the cornstarch. It's effectively a plastic alternative, right? Yeah, yeah. So I think you apply it. It's a monomer. Is that the correct way for pronouncing it? Yeah, so they're basically using that. And obviously, it's the whole material front as well that I'm interested in.
00:24:43
Speaker
The fact that people are kind of examining that, you know, using coffee grounds and things like that, you know, make these new materials. There's another bunch as well called finial. And they are, you know, using mycelium for packaging. There's a core theme running throughout this where they have, you know, a set number of components and
00:25:12
Speaker
each one's interchangeable, so you don't have to completely change the whole luminaire. You can pop one part off and change it with another. The process that's probably not unique to manufacturing anyway, you've got to do that to some extent, but this is taking it to the next step.
00:25:34
Speaker
So yeah, I'm keeping my own all that kind of thing. It's a knowledge share, isn't it?
00:25:44
Speaker
I've only gone as far as the lampshade. I know I can get you a mycelium lampshade or I can get you a one made of coffee and industrial coffee waste. And I think it's orange peel made in London. Imagine that part combined with one of these luminaires you're describing inside. I mean, that's sort of, that's where we need to get to. Clearly, that's where it needs to be.
00:26:09
Speaker
I love the examples. Now I wanted to switch gears a little bit then in terms of, so that's obviously thinking more in terms of the planetary aspect or planetary impact aspect. But then if we think of the people aspect, so the impact that lighting can have on us as users, inhabitants, occupants of a space, we've been doing some work together on a medical wellness bar in Knightsbridge in London. And that raised the question with our little team there around
00:26:36
Speaker
wellness lighting and what exactly that entails. Circadian
Wellness Lighting and Circadian Rhythms
00:26:39
Speaker
lighting might be something that's already on people's radar effectively, that 24-hour cycle. But I'll be honest, I'll often go as far as suggesting that it needs to be effectively a blue and white light spectrum during the day to energize and
00:26:54
Speaker
provide a space that is adapted for work and productivity and then clearly after dark or in the evenings you need something of a more amber color so that you're not disrupting sleep. But beyond that I don't think there's much more I could talk to you about on that subject. So as an expert on this I'm going to use the opportunity to first of all dispel any myths and also to understand really what's going on here. Obviously the circular circadian rhythm we all have that's in us but
00:27:23
Speaker
How can lighting help or hinder that? And really how much data do we have on it in terms of evidence that we can have a positive impact on an occupant's experience? Yeah, yeah, totally. I think you've kind of hit that nail on the header. For me at the moment, the technology that's been labeled circadian rhythm and lighting is effectively tunable, white light and dynamic white light.
00:27:52
Speaker
And the kind of research into its effects and applying it within a space and its effects on humans, you know, the uses of the space is still relatively recent, young, really, and not been tested to any great extent. Interestingly, I was sat in a talk a couple of weeks ago
00:28:21
Speaker
with a neuroscientist who actually specialises in the circadian process and the effect of artificial light on that process. And the kind of levels that were mentioned in terms of light output that actually trigger the circadian process are way higher than anything that we're producing.
00:28:49
Speaker
with the technology that we currently have that we're currently labeling as circadian lighting. So I think just to take a step back on that, anything that is inside, we're trying to mimic
00:29:05
Speaker
the natural world and make it more comfortable for us to be in. And I think it is exactly that kind of mapping the natural progression and changes of the colour appearance of light through the day to enhance the interior environment that we're in, rather than it having a more
00:29:34
Speaker
an immediate effect on, you know, our circadian rhythm per se. It's making us feel more comfortable in the space and more connected, you know, feeling that the outside is inside. So it's more of an experience, I'd say, rather than a fully proven scientific fact at this stage.
00:30:02
Speaker
But it definitely, you know, it does help that kind of, the idea that things are changing around you rather than it being a static colour that would, you know, it helps you kind of readjust and gives you a sense of time passing, I'd say, more than anything else at this stage. So I've probably answered that in a very political way. Well, I think the way out then is, we haven't used the terminology, but the idea of biophilic design
00:30:32
Speaker
really is what you just described the idea of bringing the outside world in recreating a natural environment in our dense urban world and just trying to align
00:30:41
Speaker
It's based on the principle of our lives and nature being a model upon which to sort of try to stick to as best we can, despite the fact that we might be, for example, working long hours in a dense urban environment in a huge skyscraper building rather than outdoors in our back garden or what have you. And I think that's the way through rather than throwing it away and saying, well, there's actually nothing to it or no real evidence behind it. I think if we can accept that daylight
00:31:10
Speaker
is such a powerful force on our sense of wellbeing and all the goodness that can come from that, such as providing energy for photosynthesis in plants. In the same way, it clearly has an impact on how we feel as a space. And so perhaps circadian lightens really, if anything, just trying to align with that when there is limited natural light, just then, well, how close can we get to a natural experience, right?
00:31:36
Speaker
Totally, totally. Yeah, that's exactly it. Far more eloquent than the way I phrased it. There you go. Great. Well, the other one then is energy, right? And so the idea that office buildings perhaps, they might have tunable lights, they might be adjusting their light intensity during the day, or frankly, not in 99% of the cases. I think most offices pretty much just have an on and an off.
00:32:02
Speaker
But what can be done in terms of the lighting system, perhaps not just the luminaire, but other sensors and controls, monitors and switches? What would a perfect case study look like in terms of setting things up so that we're using energy in an efficient, optimal manner within, let's say, a large office building? Yeah, I'd
Smart Technology for Energy Efficiency
00:32:24
Speaker
definitely say it's embracing smart tech.
00:32:28
Speaker
Um, essentially we're at that gate, which is, you know, we were just talking about earlier that the idea that we're mimicking the outside inside, you know, we have that, that wealth of technology now where, you know, it's adaptable. It learns, you know, you can pretty much. Personalize the space that you have for how you are using it.
00:32:54
Speaker
And, you know, doing that with multi-sensors, you know, monitoring carbon dioxide alongside, you know, the natural light in the space relative to artificial light, you know, balancing things out and really kind of monitoring how spaces are used, doing a first pass and then allowing it to adapt, for example,
00:33:22
Speaker
of an evening when maybe the space isn't as full. I mean, the whole kind of workspace scenario is changing or has changed. You know, offices aren't as busy as they used to be. You know, why is the lighting always on when there's no one in there? It's kind of, you know, adapting switching.
00:33:45
Speaker
and trusting in that tech to adjust and make those savings for you. And then you can monitor, you know, it's monitoring and registering how that's used. And if you, you know, if you end up moving to another space, you know, you've got that technology there, you've monitored how you're using your current spaces, you can see how that could maybe translate into, should you move office space, for example, you have a basis there already.
00:34:15
Speaker
to understand how you're actually using your space. I think it's embracing that and understanding that, what I'm very conscious of is that you could standardize that. And I think that's where you have to kind of embrace smart tech and understand that you need to tailor it then to your specific needs. It's a good starting point, but the smart tech is definitely there to adjust and personalize your space.
00:34:43
Speaker
So embracing the technology that's available to create lighting conditions that via an ongoing monitoring process can automatically adjust to usage. So like how the kind of density of how many people are in there and where they are, possibly at given times of day, you might imagine light time
00:35:06
Speaker
lighting at lunchtime, for example, being slightly different during the lunch break to mid-morning and adapting to outside conditions. If it's a dark, gloomy day, then no matter how much glazing you have in your building frontage, you're going to be in gray flat light inside. So on those days, it might need to compensate a bit more. Yeah, totally. And I think also it's embracing the idea of having some
00:35:36
Speaker
further personalization where I think we've all now realized that we all like being in different times of the day. We might all like working in slightly different locations or having a different feel in the environment that we're in. So having
Personalizing Lighting with Smart Tech
00:35:52
Speaker
that option there, again, with smart tech being able to adjust the lights where you are, you know, personalize the space in
00:36:01
Speaker
and to the kind of menu level as well is something that's important. I think with kind of like standards and guidance, you know, well version V2, for example, that is encouraged now, you know, before where we used to finally realise that we're designing for people as well.
00:36:26
Speaker
And in these spaces, I'm not just, you know, ticking boxes in terms of light levels, you kind of need to embrace it. And not only the idea of a user experience, but also on the energy side, you can tick all boxes with smart tech that's available.
00:36:47
Speaker
That could also be something as simple as a desk lamp or a task lamp. So you adjust that to your personal settings, assuming that the overhead lighting isn't completely dominating everything. If that was set slightly lower, then you could also adjust your own immediate environment with a task lamp or a desk lamp. Yeah, that's exactly what we need. And what's very strange is we're kind of a step behind how it was maybe approached in mainline Europe where
00:37:16
Speaker
you see much lower kind of ambient levels in the background and his task lighting everywhere. Yeah, it's been a bit of a bugbear for lighting designers for some time. Not a problem here in Barcelona. They have a particular taste in leaving lobby buildings, residential buildings, pretty much dark apart from one or two
00:37:38
Speaker
well chosen lamps in the reception sort of entrance areas and it just creates a certain ambiance and mood that just speaks homeliness and comfort and it's incredibly inviting walking into a space that isn't lit with intense white overhead lighting.
00:37:54
Speaker
I feel like we can go on. It's been really interesting to dig into this. It's a topic that perhaps doesn't get as much coverage as it deserves, I feel. And you've obviously got a wealth of information to share, so I encourage everyone to check out your website. We'll put the links in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time, Faye. Thank you. Thank you very much.