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Chatting with Paul Tenorio about this book, The Messi Effect
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Paul Tenorio, senior writer covering soccer for The Athletic, joins Jeremiah as they discuss his book, The Messi Effect. The book description reads: “The Messi Effect takes you inside the locker room as Messi’s arrival turned a last-place team into a global phenomenon, and into the Major League Soccer boardroom as league owners debated how to leverage Messi’s arrival to shape the future of the league and sport in America.”
Follow Paul Tenorio on BlueSky.
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Transcript
Will Bruin's New Role with Sounder at Heart
00:00:01
Speaker
Hi, I'm Will Bruin, and I was just recognized as a Seattle Sounders legend. Now I get to do voice reads for the Sounder at Heart Podcast Network. Here we go.
00:00:11
Speaker
Come on. Hey, O'Shaan. Let's go. The Seattle Sounders have done it. MLS Cup winners. Here comes Ruiz Diaz through the middle to crown it for Seattle.
00:00:25
Speaker
The Sounders rule the region.
00:00:58
Speaker
what was the thought process in terms of who you decided to use and who you didn't? Ever since I wrote a commentary that we didn't take the outcome seriously.
Sponsorship by Full Pull Wines
00:01:18
Speaker
This episode of Nos Arietes is sponsored by Full Pull Wines, a Seattle-based wine retailer and proud sponsor of Nos Arietes since 2011. Full Pull was founded in 2009, is based in Seattle, and is owned and operated by longtime Sounder supporters.
00:01:32
Speaker
They offer the best boutique wines of the world to members of their mailing list, with special focus on their home, Pacific Northwest.
Introduction to Paul Tenorio and The Messi Effect
00:01:41
Speaker
Welcome back to another episode of Adietes on the Sounder at Heart Podcast Network. I am Jeremiah O'Shann. Joining me today, someone I'm very excited to bring back onto the show, Paul Tenorio.
00:01:53
Speaker
ah He is here mainly because he's he's pumping a book that he he's write written written that has now been submitted and ah and will be out. It's called The Messy Effect. I'm sure every...
00:02:04
Speaker
and MLS fan, every American soccer fan is going to want to read this one. is, of course, also a national writer at The Athletic covering and
Challenges of Writing The Messi Effect
00:02:12
Speaker
MLS and the U.S. s national team. Welcome back to the show, Paul. It is my absolute pleasure to have you on.
00:02:18
Speaker
Oh, thank you so much for having me on. I'm excited to to chat about all this. Yeah, so let's well let's jump into this book, at least in the... Yeah, that's the main reason we're having you on. So ah you submitted it. It is now shipped. It's out of your hands. How does it feel that this book is essentially one step away now from actually being published? Yeah.
00:02:42
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that that saying hearing that is crazy. um i'm still just racked with anxiety. um It's my first book, I wanted to do well, I, you know, i knew that it would be difficult to write a book, and especially writing a book while I'm working full time for the athletic and you know, I have a four year old and a six year old at home and I try to be as involved as I can as a dad, it was the most challenging thing I've ever done in my life. And so like, you also want it to be worthwhile for you, for your family, for all the time you spent away, for all the nights I spent here in this office, um, late at night or really, really, really early in the morning.
00:03:20
Speaker
um So yeah, i'm i'm I'm excited.
Impact of Messi on MLS
00:03:23
Speaker
I'm anxious. um And, you know, I'm hopeful that this book can resonate with both um MLS fans and American soccer fans, and also hopefully with an audience of people who are coming into the sport during a World Cup, a home World Cup and saying, you know, what where are we in American soccer? And where are we going? And I think this book answers that question, or at least sets up for some of the answers.
00:03:49
Speaker
So you got the the epilogue of this book is essentially the the postmortem of the of Miami women winning MLS Cup. If Miami had not won that or if they had not even gotten to that final, how much does that end up changing? like that had to would ah That sets up very nicely for you that this all sort of came together.
00:04:09
Speaker
I came to peace a long time ago. that writing a book and reporting a book about things that are happening in real time meant I was not going to be able to tie a bow around anything, right? Like I just wasn't going to be able to do that.
00:04:29
Speaker
The fact that I was able to tie any sort of bow at the end of this book was a blessing in the sense that like, I just didn't think i was gonna happen and I hadn't been able to do it anywhere else in the rest of the book. So yeah, I mean, it was kind of nice and messy to kind of get it done at the end there and made it an easier epilogue to write.
00:04:49
Speaker
That's for sure. But still, you know it for me, that that tied in a bow, Messi and Miami 1.0 and the sporting side of Messi and Miami 1.0, and that's it. But like that is a part of the story, and that's it. It's just a part of the story. It is not the story. It is not the story of this book, but I think it is also not the story of Messi in America. And you know I think a lot of this book goes out to point out that if all we're talking about
00:05:21
Speaker
when it comes to Messi and MLS in 10 years and 15 years is what he did on the field for Miami and how many tickets and jerseys he sold, then it will have been a failure. um And so keep that in mind. It was, yes, it was nice that he won. It made it easier to write the one chapter, but it, I enjoyed that because i i also recognize that that's like the one little bow in this book.
00:05:46
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's ah it's a nice little bow and I can see how that make at the very least, I would imagine it at least made it obvious what you should be writing about in the epilogue, as opposed to racking your brain of trying to kind of come up with some big picture idea when there's not an obvious hook, ah which I guess maybe puts more pressure on you to get it right. But at least you knew what you were going for.
00:06:08
Speaker
Yeah, i think it would have been I think it would have been a little bit tougher to not be repetitive with the end of the book itself. because and And even so, I still think the end of the epilogue and the end of the book are similar because the message is still the same. you know The message is still the same, which is that this cannot be it. This is not right the end of a story. And and and i and i i meant for it to feel a little bit repetitive because I wanted that point to be driven home a second time. It's like, here is this celebratory epilogue of messy and in this wonderful moment, but like it, it cannot be the end of the story and shouldn't, it really shouldn't be in it. And if it is, that's problematic. That's probably the second book, which I won't be writing. You'll have to write that one.
00:06:51
Speaker
but Well, you know, it is interesting, I think, because there was a growing narrative around MLS in the last month or two ah around this idea that here we have this historic performance this world-class performance, Messi, the most famous player in the world, arguably the greatest player of all time, maybe even inarguably the greatest player of all time, having the exact kind of season that everyone would have hoped. He is playing in virtually every game. He is clearly putting everything into it. He is setting records. He won MVP. You know, a year ago he won MVP, but this year,
00:07:32
Speaker
yeah there was even less question as to who the MVP was. And yet there was the sense that like the needle hasn't moved the way that a lot of people would have expected it to. And I think there was this maybe growing narrative that, look, if this is all that happens, that if Messi comes to MLS and performs as well as he did, and that's great. And I think you can say the quality of and MLS has in some ways risen to his level where, you know, he's not, he's not making it look easy, but he's, know, he's, he's doing his thing.
00:08:03
Speaker
that what's what's after? like If Messi leaves and all he's left is a trophy case, full a full trophy case, that doesn't really... And and maybe they maybe Miami gets... you know they They're going to have a new stadium.
00:08:15
Speaker
But if that's if that's his impact, if that's all it is, is it's these material things, then what was the whole point of this? If Miami's expecting to just go out and find the next Messi to continue this project, that's clearly an unsustainable...
00:08:31
Speaker
endeavor, right? Yeah, there is no next Messi, you know, like, that's just like straight up. He is he's unicorn. And I think that's right. I mean, I think I what I hope, if I were to to kind of deliver a message now, it's like, I was surprised in the course of reporting this book, how often I would hear and see MLS fans saying, what what Messi effect?
00:08:54
Speaker
There hasn't been a messy effect, which is true if you're just a little bit too like tunnel vision. But but that that is exactly what you're talking about now, which is right in that it hasn't had the game-changing moment for MLS where the audiences are enormous now and players are running to the league to play because Messi's here and it's mainstreamed um MLS the way it felt like it did in the first month of Messi here. like MLS was mainstreamed for the first month of Messi and MLS. which The funny part is it wasn't actually MLS. It was the League Cup. But
00:09:32
Speaker
It was at the top of every sports center show and it was in, you know, places that it's not normally covered. And like that didn't happen for the last two and a half that, that died out. Right.
00:09:46
Speaker
But there was behind the scenes, these enormous, there were, there were these enormous changes that were brewing and debates that were happening about the future of the league.
00:09:56
Speaker
And should those decisions all occur, And should they get the last tier of that that decision or those decisions done in time for 2027 when the calendar flips?
00:10:08
Speaker
The Messi effect, we will look at the league and say, in four years, if they're able to change the roster rules in ah in a meaningful way and and and in doing so change what this league looks like in a meaningful way, which they are discussing and they're they're talking, that that's that's the current part part of the process.
00:10:29
Speaker
Then in four years time from Messi's arrival to the summer of 2027, four years exactly, you will have a league with a a new calendar, a new regular season format, a new playoff format and new roster rules. That's a pretty significant effect.
00:10:45
Speaker
It will be an entirely different looking league. in four years of Messi than it was when he arrived. So that ultimately is the Messi effect. But yeah, in the in living this in real time, I think there are moments where you where you sit back and say, man, this feels disappointing for what it could have been. This feels like from what I what i thought it was going to be in that first month of Messi,
00:11:09
Speaker
And as great as he's been on the field, and as much as he delivered that that big trophy at the end of the season, like has he really changed the league? And the answer is no. To this point, no.
00:11:23
Speaker
But that doesn't mean that the change isn't coming. In fact, we know big change is coming. And and i think we have to we have to kind of question, like what is the most important kind of change?
00:11:35
Speaker
And you know i think i think the league has gotten some things wrong.
MLS Calendar Alignment Debate
00:11:39
Speaker
I think the league has taken too long on some things, but I think if they get these decisions right, that might not matter. Now, it could matter, but it might not.
00:11:50
Speaker
Well, you know what? You you sort of alluded to, or you you mentioned one of these changes, a late-breaking change relative to the timeline of your book, which was, you know, your book was probably 90% done by the time MLS got around to announcing this calendar change, which has been hinted at for well over a year.
00:12:09
Speaker
and I think... you were the same person. You you also wrote about the change, potentially changing the playoffs. And then there's this, you've obviously also talked about this idea of loosening the roster rules.
00:12:22
Speaker
And, and I think everyone would agree that this is all coming at least a year too late. Like if for it to be ideal, like it would have been really convenient for them to play a half season leading into the world cup and then start the new season coming out of the world or start the new calendar coming out of the world cup.
00:12:39
Speaker
But and in another way, It's much more important that they get it right. This is potentially the this is likely the only time they're going to make this change. it you know Right now, it feels like a huge missed opportunity, but it's possible that in 15 years, we'll forget that this was even a concern.
00:12:57
Speaker
But I guess ah we'll start here. How important is this as the first step in this change? And and what do you think is? Is it meaningful outside of what it pretends future, like other changes coming as in the sense of is this an important change by itself or is it only as important as it is important in the way that it changes the way MLS does business?
00:13:23
Speaker
Well, I think it is an important change, but the magnitude of that change, first of all, correctly, you've correctly pointed out, the magnitude of that change was decreased by not getting it done in time for the World Cup. Like, no matter what the league says, the opportunity to sell a new MLS, and I also, I'll say on the record here, like, I hate MLS 3.0 branding. I really dislike it for a very simple fact of, like,
00:13:48
Speaker
this The goal of these changes should be to convince fans who don't like um MLS, who don't give it credit, who think it's worse than it is. And there are a lot of people who just brush it aside and say, oh, MLS isn't a real professional league. It's not close to Europe.
00:14:03
Speaker
And I'm never going to give it a try. Saying that this is just
Inefficiencies in MLS Spending Rules
00:14:06
Speaker
like an updated version of the league that they hate. for me misses the point. Like I think the whole point should be saying this is a new MLS, like come and watch. This is a different league than what you think it is. And saying MLS 3.0 is catering to us, the the MLS fans who know the league, who understand what 2.0 was and what 3.0 is.
00:14:27
Speaker
And some of us would have thought it would have MLS 4.0, but 3.0 worked with the 30th anniversary and all that, you know, we get into like branding, but like, The reality is like you need the the whole point of these changes is to bring in an audience that is not currently watching the league.
00:14:44
Speaker
and and and And that is critical to the sustainability of the league, the business of the league, and where it's going to be, what ah what what its goals are, and and what its growth capability is.
00:14:57
Speaker
All of that sets up to say, the calendar shift is incredibly important for the business of the league. It is almost, I don't want to say it's meaningless, but the the the impact of that change is decreased dramatically without it happening in tandem with significant changes to the way and MLS spends money.
00:15:18
Speaker
Like right now today, an MLS team cannot sign a $2 million dollars player unless that player is a designated player. That is absurd in today's market.
00:15:29
Speaker
Like a $2 million dollar player is just a player in any league that takes itself seriously. It's Jordan Morris. that albert ronack It's It's Pedro De La Vega. They used very low. They these are that should not be a DP. That's the bad players, but they are not players you market your whole thing around. Yeah. I mean, you you can't build a really good team and a really good league with just three players that are $2 million dollar players.
00:15:56
Speaker
Like you can't, you you are limited in how good your product can be. And like, that's where MLS lives right now on purpose. It has a limited. So rarely have decisions been made about what is best.
00:16:10
Speaker
What can we do to put the best possible product on the field for how much we're spending? If they just asked themselves that question, like that should be the starting point for how they think about the new Ross rules.
00:16:23
Speaker
If we are going to be spending $30 million, $35 million, $40 million, $20 million, doesn't matter. What is the best possible way to spend that money to get the best product on the field out of that $20 million?
00:16:35
Speaker
And the league has never done that. It's been, you know, it's it's, it's worked all these different angles of like trying to fix specific problems that teams point out or teams want to do. And it's created all these buckets as a result. And none of them create the most efficient roster And and that is that is a problem. like this this The efficiency for spend is the is really, really bad. and And people in MLS argued this point with me very, very passionately. And and they're just wrong.
00:17:04
Speaker
And I feel very confident in saying that they're just wrong. But you know the goal needs to be like, how can we put the best product on the field? And and there are still big question marks with that.
00:17:15
Speaker
so And when it comes to like the the actual end game and the end game is again, increasing audience so that your media revenue goes up so that you can put more money into the product and have a better product in the field so that more audience comes and more media revenue comes in. Media revenue is what drives sports business.
00:17:34
Speaker
and MLS's media revenue is far too low. Their game day revenue is the number one driver of revenue in the league. And it is no longer enough to sustain the spending that they need to keep up with the global market and their own goals of what they want to be. Like that is the book.
00:17:50
Speaker
It's like they have reached this point where the the business that they created that is a successful local business People buy tickets. You can see filled stadiums around the league and in certain markets. Other markets are struggling, sure. But like St. Louis and Seattle and l LA and Atlanta, and we can go through Cincinnati, Columbus. like We can go through the and point to the Nashville, the the stadiums.
00:18:15
Speaker
And they're selling suites and they're doing they're doing well with jersey sales and and their sponsorships and stadium do well. But they've kind of hit the ceiling there. So where where do you go get the next bit of revenue? Well, you have to become a nationally relevant league. And and that's where i'm like that's like, what do you have to do to do that? And and and i I concede that there's no clear answer. Like if every MLS team went out and spent $45 million dollars on its roster and they all had like Benfica's roster, like would would the common fan, American fan know that?
00:18:51
Speaker
Right. Like, would they, would that resonate with them that, Oh, this, this team is, is better than Benfica or as good as Benfica or as good as Ajax or as good as PSV. I think over time, yes.
Improving Domestic Player Opportunities in MLS
00:19:02
Speaker
I think over time in the long run, the level of play would get so much better, faster paced, better games that the the gap between what they watch on a Saturday morning and what they would see on a Saturday night would close enough that it would be recognizable, but that wouldn't justify the the big increase in spend immediately. So that's the equation I think the MLS is trying to figure out. And I think that's where the question of star power enters the fray and and the messy effect enters the fray. So that's all of that to be said is,
00:19:34
Speaker
just flipping the calendar does nothing. If you can only sign the same players you can sign now, like you have to be able to go and sign $2 million dollars right back from Syria, who is better than the homegrown player. And also like,
00:19:50
Speaker
acknowledging that yes, in the short term, I think there is a little bit of pain for the domestic player, but I think it's worth it for like the long-term gains, not just for the domestic player, but the for the domestic player pool and the ceiling, what the ceiling starts to look like for those players.
00:20:07
Speaker
Like right now, there's a pretty obvious ceiling on like the players who stay in MLS too long. And i think that we want to increase that ceiling. And I like, i I would, I would anecdotally say like, I think Noah Allen is a far better player today and Ian Frey than they would have been if they were homegrown at Philadelphia or Seattle because of the training environment they were in every day and the demands that they had from those players.
00:20:38
Speaker
Like, I think it pushed them beyond where they would have been. and I think we just want more of that. We just, we want more and more and more of that. We want, We don't want that Tyler Adams and Christian Pulisic and Chris Richards and go down the list, Gio Reyna, Joe Scali, have to leave by 17 or 18 or 19 in order to to get to a place where they're not bumping up against the ceiling anymore.
00:21:03
Speaker
Like the golden generation of American soccer, all of those players in in kind of the black hole of American soccer development are getting that in Europe. you know Can we increase the ceiling here at home so that...
00:21:17
Speaker
we're developing more world-class players or any world-class players here. I think that's, I think that is a ah payoff. Um, though I, acknowledge I'm, I'm rambling now though. I acknowledge that, that it does have, you do have to take the short-term hit of more foreign players in order to raise that ceiling.
00:21:35
Speaker
So, and I, I guess to, I don't know how much the book is really about this, but if I am to pick up what you're putting down, yeah it's that, For the sound, and I guess this is where this is a amount of a question is like for the sounders right now, to you use an example, they see the current marketplace, they see the current landscape and they go, why should we spend 45 million when we can get just as much value out of 20 million?
00:21:59
Speaker
And in fact, we can get more like we can we can spend at the 20 million level. and compete with teams that are spending at the 45 million level, because we know this is a very inefficient marketplace and it, it just doesn't make, you know, and I, I guess, how do you get, how do you bridge that gap where you say, look, i we understand you can like a lot of like a smart team, like the Sounders can do this on the cheap essentially and that's kind of what you know they're a mid-tier spending team uh by a lot of metrics and they also don't spend it they they they're one of the lowest spending teams uh when it comes to just when they when it comes to discretionary spending yeah very simply sorry i was just very simply just let go
00:22:43
Speaker
Just let go. Like, that's what I'm, like that's the more important change. Like we can pick a number, we can pick a number 25, 30, 35, 40. I don't, I think the more important change on the front end is stop trying to control how these teams spend.
00:23:00
Speaker
Like saying that this spend has to be on players 22 or younger, and this spend has to be limited to three DPs instead of just saying you have 25 million or you have up to 40 million.
00:23:12
Speaker
That doesn't mean right Seattle has to go spend 40 million. They can say, well, we feel like we have a pretty good system. We have some good homegrowns that are on the cheap. We can develop players. We're going to spend 20 million. And guess what? Like we don't feel restricted. So we're going to go spend 3 million on this 30 year old center back that you guys might think is too old, but for us fits perfectly into our system. And now we don't need to worry about him taking up a DP spot. And we're going to spend,
00:23:38
Speaker
you know, one and a half million on this 23 year old. And we're going to pay him one and a half million that we wouldn't have been able to sign unless he was a DP before. But now, like, just ease up on the restrictions, let every team have their own model.
00:23:49
Speaker
But more importantly, allow spend to be from one aim. to put the best possible team on the field. And every team in MLS will have their own ideas of what that means.
00:24:02
Speaker
Miami's ideas are different than what Seattle's ideas are, are different from Philadelphia's ideas. And that's true today. let's Let's take the reins off and and let go of this idea of controlling these buckets that they have to spend in that are increasingly...
00:24:19
Speaker
increasingly inefficient. Like TAM was good for like two years and now it makes no sense. It is insanely inefficient in the global soccer market, but it still exists because TAM has only increased in comparison to an MLS salary cap that...
00:24:36
Speaker
80% of the spend in this league comes outside the cap, but TAM is linked to the cap, right? Max TAM is linked to the the salary cap, which is way behind where it should be. So now you have this, it just no longer works, but this league has been so slow to evolve it. So,
00:24:51
Speaker
let go of all
Revising MLS Spending and Player Slots
00:24:52
Speaker
these things. Let Adrian Hanauer and, you know, Craig Weibel's ideas for how to build a team that's still valid. I think that you just have to allow teams. This is how much money you have to spend. This is the minimum. This is the maximum. I do acknowledge and think that you need to have some sort of designated player still, because there's always going to be a messy level player out there that you have to ah keep open. But I think you should,
00:25:17
Speaker
throw back to what DPs were meant to be, which are these really, really special players. So like I would set the DP number at like anyone making 12 million or more that you could, that's like three players in league history. So like there's lot on Ibrahimovic is of the world. Just hit your cap at seven and a half million.
00:25:34
Speaker
Zlatan, Kaka, David Villa, Frank Lampard, go down Thierry Henry. All these guys made seven and a half million or less fashion. Schweinsteiger and the messy and son And we'll even include Insigne. So there will be some mistakes that happen, you know, but hopefully that prevents Insigne from making that much money because you say, oh, like, I, you know, what we want to save these DP spots for like the people that have a commercial influence, right?
00:25:59
Speaker
But like the soccer side of it, like if you're going to be willing to spend 8 million on a player and eat up eight of your $40 million dollars cap on one guy, cool. Like most teams probably won't do that.
00:26:10
Speaker
Right. But if you spent, if you do go get a Messi or an Mbappe down the road or whoever, that's that they hit the cap at 8 million. Right. So they're still taking up a substantial portion. My point being that like changing how teams spend is more important than how much while also acknowledging that you have to spend more. If you, if, if the goal is to be what and MLS claims it is, which is to be one of the best leagues in the world, that's an if.
00:26:39
Speaker
if you If you're happy with what what MLS is now, and you think this this is good and sustainable, and it should just be this, then it's a whole different equation. But if you actually want to compete to be one of the better leagues in the world, you have to spend more.
00:26:54
Speaker
And I think, you know, in our pre-interview discussion, you sort of alluded to this, is that the problem with staying where you, if if sort of staying this good local business, but not necessarily not necessarily a national business, is that in its current state, MLS really isn't sustainable. It's only sustainable, like you'll like a sounder are probably so like, the way those sounders are running their business can survive ah in the current state of MLS because of everyone else being so and ah inefficient, but if you, but a lot of these teams are only able to do what they're doing because they are, they have this idea of, of growth.
00:27:33
Speaker
And even the Sounders are, are somewhat built on the equity that, that Adrian Hanauer has built into their valuation. So, you know, he bought in at, you know, if he was into the Sounders for 50 million on the high end,
00:27:47
Speaker
His valuation, you know, he's he's got a, you know, his share of the Sounders is worth $400 or $500 million. dollars ah That's a different thing. That doesn't necessarily mean, but the only reason they're at a $900 million dollars or a billion dollar valuation is because of this potential growth, right?
00:28:05
Speaker
And so the what you're saying, I think, is that MLS cannot afford to just say, oh, no, we're in a good place and we can just keep ticking along at our current rate and everything will...
00:28:16
Speaker
we'll be fine. It's that we're at a point now where they need to actually start some exponential growth. Yeah. I mean, there's a moment in the book in, in the spring in Chicago at the board of governors meeting where an owner says to me, like no one is sitting in that room saying the status quo is good.
00:28:34
Speaker
The status quo is great. We're good. That's literally not on the table. Everyone was acknowledging something has to change. And the debate was centered around what has to change.
00:28:46
Speaker
So that gives you a good idea that, you know, the fact that an owner is willing to say that on the record, like no one is going into that room right now and saying status quo is hunky dory. Like they knew, they all know the league has to change.
00:29:00
Speaker
It's about what does that change look like? And I would even think, so I think Seattle is a great example of how the dynamics of the business are changing. Like the Seattle has, when the, as attendance went down, i went out to Seattle and I wrote a story about how they're changing the what they how they think about the business, right? They're trying to become a business that, you know, uses data to these fans to change the business and earn more money in different ways that maybe becoming more of an events business, maybe opening a concert venue, utilizing data in that way. Why are they doing that?
00:29:36
Speaker
Because they need the revenue. They need more revenue. And because it's not enough to sustain spending. At the same time, they were cutting back on discretionary spend. like I think the one discretionary spend that they have was Pedro de la Vega last year. I think everyone else was paid for by the league or general allocation money, right? So I think that's indicative of the fact that the business is changing. Right.
00:30:00
Speaker
you know, that's not what Seattle was doing a few years ago. There were more, there was more discretionary spent. I'm not saying that these guys are pulling out of trying to win. They won a trophy this year. i think it's an acknowledgement that as um MLS stands right now, you don't need to spend to win. And I would argue that that's not a great thing either. Like what, what message is that sending to your owners?
00:30:23
Speaker
If like, Oh, we want you to spend to put a better product on the field, but like, There's actually no correlation between spending and winning in this league. And I think you've seen owners react to that, right? Like Red Bull doesn't spend.
00:30:36
Speaker
And YCSE changed significantly how it spends. You know, the the standouts are the ones that are still spending in spite of that. And like, think about how different the story would have been if Miami lost to Vancouver at MLS Cup.
00:30:50
Speaker
Right. And who they were playing. Right. So, well, I mean, I think, i think it's inarguable that in MLS, you still don't have to spend to win. Like it's like I've heard, you know, and I think some people took Miami winning as proof that, well, if you spend, you can win in MLS, but that's not, I don't think that's actually a very, a very real takeaway because for, for one, the,
00:31:14
Speaker
They have Messi. That's sort of like the main differentiating factor. But you look at everything else that happened in MLS this year, and they're just like every other year, the the correlation between how much spending and and where you finished in the table and even how far in the playoffs you went was almost non-existent. And so if you are the Sounders, you look at this and you say, why should we spendt why should we blow up our our business model when there's no when there's an unclear return on just spending more money?
00:31:45
Speaker
Sure. Yeah, exactly. But that's but then you know this this is kind of part of the book. It's like, is that the right way to run the business? like Is it good for MLS that there's no correlation between spending and winning? And and and MLS says unequivocally, Yes.
00:32:02
Speaker
they say the north star of our business has and always will be competitive balance and that is an idea that comes from the nfl it comes from lamar hunt and the early days of the nfl and if you go back and you research the words competitive balance you know what i found really funny i found this article from way back in the day lamar hunt talking on the record about how free agency would be bad for the nfl because it would ruin the north star of the nfl of competitive balance And because markets like Kansas City wouldn't be able to compete against New York and l LA. And I think we've seen that not to be true, that you can make a ah compelling argument that the dras okay the draft is an equalizer though, right? Kansas City has done okay because they drafted Patrick Mahomes. They didn't have to compete in free agency for Patrick Mahomes. You know, would Mahomes have signed with Kansas City rather than LA or whatever, right? So like the draft in the NFL is still like an important equalizer to
00:32:58
Speaker
how free agency works. But I think that you know there is ah ah there is also something to be said for the fact that you know spending more and spending better is not mutually exclusive from competitive balance. you know There are a lot of billionaire owners in Major League Soccer There are a lot of billionaire owners who don't live in New York or Los Angeles or Miami or Chicago like that that can spend decent amounts of money that can be competitive. And MLS has had, and for a long time, data that's changed since i first saw it in 2015 of how much of a difference happens after two and a half X of spend, right? that That at two and a half X is when you begin to lose some of that competitive balance, that parity. So,
00:33:44
Speaker
you know they they can structure a salary cap to to maintain that level of two and a half X so that that competitive balance remains. And on top of that, they have a playoff.
00:33:56
Speaker
And a playoff where you can lose in one game is the ultimate equalizer of competitive balance in my mind. All that being said, What I don't want is for people to hear me talking about this thing that I'm really passionate about, which is how MLS should spend money and think that that's what this book is about.
00:34:13
Speaker
Because i don't dive into this much detail about what the right way is to spend and how you should spend and you know how much is the right... The idea is more is bigger picture than that. It's that...
00:34:27
Speaker
these owners are having these discussions on a bigger picture level of like, we have to change. How do we have to change? Why do we have to change?
00:34:37
Speaker
When do we have to change? And like, this was happening in real time. And I don't think that's very common that a league is going through this kind of existential moment of its ownership group, understanding change has to happen for us to grow sustainably the way we want
Strategic Changes Needed for MLS Growth
00:34:56
Speaker
to grow. And we are making these decisions right now.
00:35:00
Speaker
Like in the course of the last two years, while I was writing this book, the biggest challenge was they were making those decisions and debating these decisions while I was reporting the book.
00:35:11
Speaker
So like asking them to tell me what's going to happen. No one knows because they're all debating things still in their votes that were going to happen and then didn't happen. Trying to get people to talk when they don't know who the winner is going to be. They don't want to be on the wrong side of this, you know, but like,
00:35:26
Speaker
The book is about that. It's about that process of these owners in real time changing a league. And like I said at the beginning of this, We know that in 2027, two thirds of these major changes will have happened, right? The calendar is flipping that has been voted on now and the regular season and post-season formats will change.
00:35:47
Speaker
The last and very important and critical part of this change is still to be determined, but it's going to be determined. Like, Change is coming.
00:35:58
Speaker
What that change looks like, we don't know yet. and And that's what the book is about. and and And it's also about why this change was necessary. Like, what does the American soccer landscape look like that's forcing MLS to acknowledge, like, soccer has grown tremendously in North America, right?
00:36:18
Speaker
But our percentage of that soccer audience hasn't grown as much as we would like it to. in that So when people say like, when is soccer going to make it? I think this book points out like soccer's made it.
00:36:31
Speaker
Like the Premier League is popular. It's mainstream and people care deeply about teams in England. And they wake up early and they go to pubs and, you know, hundreds of thousands of people tune in every morning to watch.
00:36:44
Speaker
CBS and Champions League is the most and most popular Champions League show in the world is an American Champions League show. Yes, it doesn't have American talent on the desk, but it's an American produced show for an American audience that is now the most popular Champions League show in the world. And its approach to streaming and social and its popularity there shows that it's reaching the younger generation, that MLS constantly bangs on the drum saying, we have the young fans, we have the young fans. Well, like Champions League is coming for those young fans and is reaching them on social very effectively, as is the Premier League.
00:37:18
Speaker
Soccer has gone into pop culture. Soccer, Ted Lasso was enormously popular and and introduced to people the idea of the Premier League and promotion relegation. And then Welcome to Rexham came and became enormously popular. And now you have on top of all of that popularity that's happened, you have the USL working towards promotion relegation.
00:37:41
Speaker
And this big boogeyman that I don't think people really realize that sits out there is Liga MX and the Apollo deal, where if ah if if Liga MX gets its ducks in a row, and it centralizes its commercial rights and its television rights, and it's got the highest TV numbers in America, if they go get a Premier League level TV deal or bigger because their ratings are bigger, and they are they start outspending MLS in a meaningful way,
00:38:07
Speaker
with this injection of capital from Apollo or another investment bank with an American business putting a stamp of approval on doing business in Mexico, that is a major threat to recruiting talent from South America and saying we're the best league in this hemisphere.
00:38:23
Speaker
And it's, in my opinion, there's a little bit of a race to see who gets their stuff together faster, the MX or MLS. And you have all of that occurring, NWSL trying to figure its way and the relevant lawsuit of potentially bringing meaningful games here, FIFA constantly bringing tournaments here. Like MLS is sitting there saying, what do we do? How do we grab more of this market? How do we get people to come over to our product?
00:38:48
Speaker
That's where things stand right now. And that's what this book is about. It lays all of that out and it takes you into the boardroom a bit for these decisions. And at the same time on a parallel path, kind of shows how Messi played a role in that, how Messi's arrival and his success essentially started these talks, which is crazy to think about.
00:39:08
Speaker
Like that's, that's maybe one of the the most mind blowing parts is like they announced in 2018 that the U S was getting the world cup in 2026. And yet movement towards these changes did not start until July of 23 when messy arrived.
00:39:21
Speaker
Yeah, i mean, that's kind of the the crazy thing. And I think I heard you talk maybe a little bit about this on on SoccerWise or something. But MLS sort of sat on his hands for the better part of five years and just said, well, yeah, this big wave is coming in 2026. We'll catch it. But there was not it seems like there was this not this realization that they couldn't just catch the wave. They actually had to be a participant in making this happen, that if they don't get on – if they don't get on board, that they're just going to sort of get, get bowled over by this thing.
00:39:56
Speaker
And, you know, I think you've made a very compelling case. I think you can see out in the landscape that MLS is at a point now where they can't just afford as a entity, as a collective to just say, look, we're just going to take this current path we're on and and go along it.
00:40:12
Speaker
And I think you could debate whether or not messy was, ultimately, like how important he was to that, like him specifically and how much the idea of him was a big part of this. And I guess the question is, how effectively do you think MLS has really stepped up to this? How like, do you see this happening? Do you see the owners collectively deciding like, okay, these are some real changes. We can't afford to sort of do the incremental thing that we've been doing for 30 years, which has served us well, admittedly, but we can no longer really afford to do.
00:40:47
Speaker
I don't know. I don't know that they'll get there. i think I think that they will change.
00:40:59
Speaker
I think that the rules will change. But I don't know if this first swipe that they have at it, this first punch... where they really should be thinking as big as possible for 2027, and they should be thinking about the new MLS, and they should be thinking about the lessons that the last few years has taught them have taught them, I don't know that they'll get it right for that punch. I think that the the instincts of this league and the people that are still running the league who come from the beginning days of this league, their instinct is gradual change.
00:41:35
Speaker
Mm-hmm. they They believe very firmly in that. they you know Clark Hunt talks about sports ownership being a generational play and the the horizon that they're working on is is a lifelong generational horizon.
00:41:49
Speaker
I think that that is a really fine take for owning an NFL team. I think it's a super dangerous take for owning an American soccer team because the Premier League is coming after those generational fans too. And I think winning them to add a higher clip.
00:42:03
Speaker
And maybe that's just anecdotal for me, but I know a lot of my friends I grew up playing soccer with who are raising their kids to be Liverpool and Arsenal fans, and maybe one or two who take them to MLS games.
00:42:14
Speaker
And maybe that's because I grew up in DC area and and i not Seattle. And maybe because I live in Chicago now, The point is that that the this is not something where you can just put yourself in cruise control and guarantee that the next generation of American fans is going to latch onto an MLS team.
00:42:31
Speaker
The globalization of the sports sport is such that we can access any team we want. you know My son is four years old and ah and I'm happy to say is obsessed with soccer.
00:42:44
Speaker
And we've started to watch a lot of Messi recently because he knows I'm writing this book. But you know, he also sits down with me on Saturday mornings and watches the premier league. And, you know, I've taken him to Chicago fire games too. And he has a Seattle sounder shirt that I brought home. Thanks to Alex Caulfield. So he has two fans, two, two MLS teams that he talks about all the time as that he's a fan of, which is the Chicago fires and Seattle sounders. But like,
00:43:13
Speaker
I think that's partly because that's what my job is. Like if I wasn't a soccer writer covering American soccer and I was just the soccer fan who grew up loving the game the way I did, would I be a Chicago Fire fan?
00:43:23
Speaker
Or like, would I be watching the Premier League? You know, like, I don't, I don't know if I can answer that with a straight face and be like, yeah, like I would be pushing him towards MLS. So I think that's,
00:43:36
Speaker
I think that for me is like, that's the question that I think these owners have to ask themselves, which is like, how confident are you, truly confident that you can continue your slow incremental growth and that the continued globalization of the sport and the continued popular popularity of these foreign leagues won't start to substantially bite into that audience. And and i don't I don't have the answer,
00:44:06
Speaker
I don't think they have the answer yet, but I do think that like, i think the big battle used to be, i used to think, I told my wife this the other day, i think back to like how much of my life I've devoted to like roster rules and like caring about these things and allocation disorder. Like my career, I was so focused on like the day-to-day and catering to the MLS fans.
00:44:28
Speaker
And I was like, And i I cared about it and I still do. I think it's fun and and interesting and crazy and all of those things. But like, there is like a real existential nature to this. And like, i really hope that these owners can get it right because I do think that like, if you don't, if you get these decisions wrong, the hole you have to dig out of is even bigger. And I think we can all acknowledge that like,
00:44:57
Speaker
and MLS is trying to dig out of a hole to get back into like ah um a more competitive place in the both soccer, global soccer landscape in America and the American sports landscape, right? Cause it's competing on two axes, right? It's competing against premier league and champions league and league MX and NWSL and USL. And it's also competing against the NFL and the NBA and NHL and major league baseball and college sports.
00:45:22
Speaker
Like, I'm worried if they get this decision wrong, this third tier that isn't wrong, that that battle will become even more difficult and and both financially and business wise, but also just straight up in terms of like fan interest.
00:45:37
Speaker
Yeah.
Seattle's Soccer Culture vs. MLS Average
00:45:38
Speaker
and And I think you you make a a fair point. And I think in Seattle, it's a little easy sometimes to forget that Seattle is not the traditional is not the average MLS market.
00:45:51
Speaker
Like whether or not it's working in Seattle. Yeah. is not necessarily inform whether or not it's working league-wide. Like, I think you can walk into you can walk around Seattle and you can see a lot of sound... Like, the Sounders, my impression of the Sounders is they are much more embedded in the community than virtually any other MLS team. Like, you will see normal people having conversations about the Sounders in ways that you just don't see in most and MLS markets. But that still pales in comparison to the Mariners or the Seahawks or whoever
00:46:22
Speaker
Yeah. And, and for his, and I, and I love that. I love covering the Sounders. I love all that, but I can also acknowledge that this is not gonna, it doesn't necessarily scale elsewhere in the league.
00:46:35
Speaker
And for the league to sort of rise, meet these challenges, it it can't just be, let's just have 30 Seattle's. Cause that's just not, that's not going to happen. ah And I guess the,
00:46:48
Speaker
the issue comes into like, i don't know how like this, the sound does the sounders are at some point going to have to change the way they do things to keep up when MLS starts to change. And that is a little scary as a, as a sounders fan. Cause we've had a, you know, we've had a nice run of things as you, as you probably noticed. But I think like also you made this point a little bit, but like i and I communicated this thought to some MLS owners.
00:47:14
Speaker
Like I work in national media and I feel like I have a and I've been selling subscriptions for American soccer coverage longer than MLS has. Okay. And MLS just gave up on it after two years. Okay. So like i recognize the difficulty of selling MLS to a national audience. Okay.
00:47:31
Speaker
And even when I write a Seattle Sounders story, if I write just a Seattle Sounders story, which I did last year, the numbers at a great strong market like Seattle are not substantial compared to when I write a U.S. Men's National Team story or a messy story or a ah an MLS story with a national hook where I'm tapping into...
00:47:55
Speaker
30 fan bases instead of one fan base. And- But if you it's probably better than if you write it about almost any other team. Yeah. it's better than if I write it about, well it depends, right? Like, I mean some of our markets in the athletic, some of it depends on how many subscribers we have in each market. Like you'd be surprised at some of the markets that pop because of just as the strong sort subscriber base there. But I think also like the point is, is like, also like when I write a story about what I might think is a really interesting story about a player or a coach in Orlando or Chicago, how many people in Seattle are clicking that story?
00:48:27
Speaker
How many Sounders fans care when I write about and NYCFC or Philadelphia or DC United, let alone... how many Flyers fans care when we write about the union or Commanders fans care when we write about DC United. Like MLS has trouble getting its own fans to care about the teams outside of its own market. Absolutely. right yeah Which speaks to the fact that even Seattle fans are saying, yeah, it's a good league, but it's not that compelling that I need to tune in and see what happens in this week's game of the week.
00:49:03
Speaker
and And I think that speaks to, one, the way the business has worked. It has been driven toward fan affinity in your market and caring deeply about your team, which matters, right? It is the base of what has made MLS work because the atmospheres in the stadium are awesome because fans care. And then MLS takes that. This is some of what I i was going to write about in this book that I ended up changing. but Like Seattle is a good example of this.
00:49:33
Speaker
the What happened in Seattle when they came into the league, the popularity of it, the local affinity, the atmosphere, and MLS packaged that up and went and sold it to expansion markets for the next decade. right And then Atlanta came in and they packaged Atlanta up and they went and sold more expansion markets.
00:49:50
Speaker
It works. It works locally. But that is no longer the problem. and MLS knows how to create a really good, strong local business. Now it's like, okay, that's great. But this is, you know, we went to market with our media rights. And we got lucky, i think, in a way, got lucky with Apple, that Apple came with such a high offer compared to what the traditional media was offering.
00:50:14
Speaker
And now they're getting out of that Apple deal sooner. And I think that puts a ticking clock on MLS. to be able to come out of that Apple deal and say, we can we can command what we're making at Apple anywhere else. And they can't they can't just take 250 million. They need more than that in the next media deal.
00:50:31
Speaker
And right you know have they shown the numbers that yeah ESPN or CBS or NBC or Apple or Amazon or Netflix is going to say, yeah, this product is worth 350 million a year to us.
00:50:47
Speaker
I think the answer to that today would probably be no. Right? So, and and by the way, i credit in this book, MLS, they went to that media market with everything they had. They they were ready for that moment in a way that they weren't for the World Cup.
00:51:03
Speaker
They got everything in line, all the local TV deals, everything. Everything lined up and ended so they could go to the market with the best possible product they had. And there wasn't that much interest.
00:51:15
Speaker
And, and Apple ended up kind of coming in with this huge offer. And it was worth the risk, like the deal or don't like the deal. I think it was worth the risk and they all and they had to so much bigger than what they got elsewhere. And I wish that that same preparation had been done from 2018 when the World Cup was announced to say, we need to get everything in line for 2026 and come to the American market in the summer of 2026 with the best possible product we can.
Preparing for the 2026 World Cup
00:51:45
Speaker
And like I don't think they did that in the way that they did with the media deal. yeah Yeah. And I, to kind of build on that, I think you're right that even in Seattle, most Sounders fans would say they're Sounders fans way before they would say they're MLS fans. And you could say, look, we're the Sounders are moving to USL championship or whatever the USL premier league.
00:52:06
Speaker
And, probably get some fights, but ultimately that it's, it's, that's not what's important to them. Right. And I think the Apple deal was sort of a similar thing where i think you can say this was a good deal for MLS. It was a move that MLS had to do, but a lot of Sounders fans look at it and go, yeah, but it's kind of not as good as what we had before, which was ah local commentators who actually understood the game, high level production,
00:52:34
Speaker
you know, it was a better deal for us. And they haven't seen the payout of the whole, everything else just is so much better that we can accept, you know, it being worse on the margins. And I and i wonder, why don't you think MLS has approached this?
00:52:51
Speaker
2026 with the same fervor that it, ah it, it approached the, you know, this, the, the Apple deal that it it, that it hasn't set itself up to make a similar jump. Because I think the, the problem with the Apple deal isn't so much whether or not it was good on its face or whether it was good in the risk. It was that they haven't done anything to sort of, to maximize on that potential.
00:53:15
Speaker
Like, um Like I'll just use m like 360, I think is a great conceptual idea to have this wraparound show. i like it a lot, but clearly like the audience is not, doesn't really seem to be there and is not reacting in part because it just feels sort of like a great idea without great execution.
00:53:34
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, i think, um I think the reason why they weren't as ready for 2026 as they were for the media deal was really like a failure of leadership.
00:53:45
Speaker
I mean, I think we have to acknowledge that, that not enough was done to prioritize that. We can also acknowledge that COVID happened in between 2018 and 2023 that,
00:53:57
Speaker
I think that that was a huge driver of MLS's outlook, the ownership outlook, because what what happened coming out of COVID? They renegotiated the CBA not once, but twice.
00:54:12
Speaker
And you know i think the cynical side of me and the reporter side of me when it was happening, like i I understood why the first renegotiation happened where they kicked they they kicked back the the growth over a year because of the losses they had taken in 2020. The second one felt,
00:54:28
Speaker
borderline gratuitous to to then kick back spending even another year. So they they slowed growth of the league to a slower rate of of of growth than ever before or than over the previous two CBAs. And I think they were happy with that.
00:54:44
Speaker
I think they were happy that they had slowed that growth. They had just taken some major losses during COVID. And and what did that do? That kicked the end of the CBA from before 2026 to where they would have had to confront all of these decisions that have to be made in time for the World Cup in 2026 to after the World Cup, to two years after the World Cup, by the time the second negotiation was done, right? So they they didn't have to confront these decisions. they were you know They were in a good place from an ownership perspective on in and the terms that they were dealing with. So you know they just didn't think it was necessary.
00:55:24
Speaker
And you also have to remember what the... you know, when yeah i look back on the BCG study, which Pablo Maurer and I published, you know, an analysis of in full on The Athletic many years ago, you know, the the word from BCG was stop signing star players.
00:55:43
Speaker
They don't matter. They don't change the business. They don't drive affinity. They don't bring bigger audiences. They're not worth the spend. And MLS leaned hard into that, right? And that we can point to that in numerous different ways. But I think like Atlanta's success with Miguel Almiron became the the the rallying cry of MLS. You know, fewer cacahs, more Miguel Almirons. And I think that...
00:56:09
Speaker
like First of all, it really he did it was a disservice to the league in general because Miguel Amirón was like a unicorn. There's just not a lot of Miguel Amiróns that have happened since Miguel Amirón where you buy a guy for $8.5 million and he becomes what Miguel Amirón did.
00:56:23
Speaker
um what What I think happened when Messi came was the commercial impact was so enormous So over the top, overwhelming that league owners were like, oh, shoot, wait a second. We went too far the other way. We went too far of like stars don't matter. Maybe actually stars do matter a little bit in relevance and resonance.
00:56:50
Speaker
both nationally and globally. And of course, like part of that immediately, the league launches into these studies to show that, that there is no messy equivalent that other than Ronaldo and like the drop-off from Messi and Ronaldo to everyone else is so substantial that like, you really can't take any lessons from this.
00:57:09
Speaker
But I think son disproved that you don't have to be messy to have like a meaningful commercial impact as a player in a specific market. Yeah. Yeah, or Mueller in Vancouver. and and And so I think that started the juices flowing again of like, oh, like maybe the ideas is that we think have been the right ideas for so long that we were kind of chilling, we should rethink.
00:57:33
Speaker
And so coming out of that board of governors meeting in Washington, D.C., day after Messi had been introduced in Miami or two days after Messi had been introduced in Miami, they go to ah a product strategy or a sporting and competition committee meeting in Dallas. And that is the beginning of studies and, and movement towards the change that was voted on in Palm beach. Like,
00:57:58
Speaker
I think that's, to me, is a bit alarming that they were just so willing to write off the World Cup as like, as this moment that they had to be prepared for, right? Like, and they're still like, I mean, they they believed that growth will come off of the World Cup. you You mentioned it earlier that there would be this wave and they would just ride it.
00:58:17
Speaker
And I think they started to realize like, oh no, like we should be making changes to to take full advantage of this potential wave. But like, I mean, the fact that people tell me that those changes really started coming out of that board of governors meeting in in July of 2023 speaks volumes to the fact that they just weren't they weren't embracing the moment the way they did. And on top of that, they didn't get the changes in time, done in time for 2026. Like Messi was like a second chance player.
00:58:49
Speaker
to get it done. And they moved, they didn't move fast enough to get it done. And, and that's where we can get into the semantics of like, is it, is it too important to rush?
00:59:01
Speaker
You know, you have to get it right and not get it done in time. But I think, I think there were a lot of owners. I know there were a lot of owners who felt like they could have gotten it done in time for 2026 and they didn't. Well, yeah and I guess it gets into whether or not it was whether or not it's important or whether or not they had time to get it done for 2026 at this point.
00:59:21
Speaker
There is seems to be an undeniable reality that there was a lot of foot dragging that even created this sort of situation in the first place, that ah there was there was too many owners who needed to sort of get on board that weren't ready to get on board. and you know, maybe they are now.
00:59:38
Speaker
And I think you can argue that at this point, you know Once you haven't made the change last year, you're sort of stuck. like you know i think we're seeing this with the CBA where they still they still have work to do to get a CBA ready ah for 2027, which we you know we had ah Andrew Wisnowski on, and he pointed out that the current CBA is set to expire in the middle of the first full season, which is yeah obviously not not an ideal situation to be in.
01:00:06
Speaker
But and and so I don't know, it's i they're they're picking an interesting time to try to get this done. ah i don't think it was foot dragging, by the way. i think it was. okay I think I mean, it was from our perspective. I think they are they were just very convinced that they were right and that everyone else was wrong, that no change was needed.
01:00:26
Speaker
And I will say like one part of this reporting process of the book was, was really seeing how hard it was to change people's minds, how much time it took to build consensus.
01:00:39
Speaker
But part of that is also this idea of like being okay with consensus versus wanting unanimity. Um, I think that's part of where the league will continue to change and move more towards like being a little bit more proactive and a little bit more willing to say we have the votes, like we're moving forward. Whereas before and even during this process, I think there was a lot of concern for trying to get everyone on board with the changes. Right.
01:01:09
Speaker
Yeah, you know, I i do think the the one good thing is that what we've seen in the American soccer landscape is that there is clearly an appetite for soccer in this country.
Competing Globally in Soccer Market
01:01:20
Speaker
You know, we're seeing ah the Premier League take advantage of that. We're seeing Champions League take advantage of that. we're We've long seen Liga Amechi's sort of taking advantage of that. And what MLS, I think, needs to understand is that they can't be just by being here is not enough. Like they they can't just be the local option. They actually have to be, you know, and there are some, you know, weirdly, there's some structural advantages that ah that ah the Premier League has in that,
01:01:48
Speaker
it's very convenient for a lot of people to get up on a Saturday morning and spend their morning watching games on TV, as opposed to having to plan their whole day around going out to ah a stadium.
01:01:59
Speaker
And, ah and that's, you know, that's, That's something that MLS is never... like that's That's a particular advantage that and MLS probably is not going to be able to ah beat.
01:02:10
Speaker
And they have to just make people want to watch their games more. ah this is ah But you're I think you've identified that this is a fascinating time. And and you've kind of convinced me that there is an existential...
01:02:22
Speaker
ah element to all of this and maybe not literal. Like I don't think MLS is going to go away if they don't get this right, but I think MLS will miss a pretty obvious window to get it right. And it would set the league back a long way if they aren't able to sort of capitalize on the momentum that messy is, you know, help build.
01:02:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think the the gap will continue to grow. that's That's the scary part. like I think there's two gaps that exist for MLS right now, and they need to close both of them. i don't think they'll close them completely, either of them, but they need to narrow those gaps simultaneously. And there's two there's two different paths to those two gaps. There is the quality gap.
01:03:01
Speaker
And I think the the and mls has MLS owners like to say, we're much better league, we're much better league, we're much better league. they are a much better league when they're comparing themselves to themselves. When you're comparing it to what and MLS used to be, you are a better league. When you are comparing MLS to where it is in comparison to the rest of the world or to the top leagues in the world, I think that gap has grown wider.
01:03:23
Speaker
So I think you need to narrow that gap. and And the way you do that goes into the idea of spending and how how you're spending. and And I think also how much you're spending, but especially how you're spending that money.
01:03:34
Speaker
Can you spend it more efficiently to put a better product on the field? and And I think the the payoff for that is, like I said before, longer term payoff. I think over time, fans will see and learn that the quality is closer. And I have ah an anecdote that I used with MLS owners. um And I use a lot, but I'll use it now. I had a good friend of mine who is a South Side of Chicago guy, White Sox fan, Bears fan, Blackhawks fan. And after the World Cup in 2022, he reached out to me and another friend of mine who works in soccer. And he said, I want to become a soccer fan. I really enjoyed that World Cup.
01:04:09
Speaker
and And what did he ask for? Not an MLS team. What Premier League team should I follow? So we gave the whole spiel and he ended up following Fulham, which is not too surprising. The American connections and, you know, kind of fits the South Side of Chicago guy. And he surprisingly, to me at least, really went all in on Fulham. Following them, watching them every single week, following their transfer news,
01:04:31
Speaker
diehard Fulham fan from like minute one um in the same way he is for his Chicago teams. And then he surprised me at the beginning of last year. He said, i think i'm going to try to watch the fire. Like I'm a Chicago guy.
01:04:42
Speaker
i should be a Chicago soccer guy too. So how do I watch them? Okay. You got to pay a hundred bucks for this season pass thing. Okay. Like, is Is it free for a few weeks? Can I like try it out? Yeah, you can watch. And he really shocked me in that opening weekend. He watched the San Diego game and he messaged and he said like, oh, this is like actually really entertaining. I'm enjoying this game.
01:05:02
Speaker
You know, like I'm excited to keep watching. So he starts watching the fire and after an MLS and after a few weeks, he comes to me and he says, are the fields bigger in MLS? Yeah. And I'm like, no, the fields aren't bigger. What he was seeing is that there's way more space and time on the ball, right? The game moves slower. Everyone has more time on the ball.
01:05:22
Speaker
There's more space on the ball. And so he thought, oh, it must be that they're bigger fields. No, he had just been watching a higher quality product for several years, but it only took him a few weeks to diagnose the the difference in level. And this is from a a a soccer novice, right? So I felt like that was an important anecdote because it showed, it should show MLS executives and owners that even casual sports fans can quickly diagnose the difference in level between MLS and the best league in the world.
01:05:51
Speaker
So you have to close that gap. On the second side of things, you have to close the perception gap. What those casual fans think MLS is versus what it actually is and where it wants to go. So right now, I think a lot, I know because I tell people all the time, oh, what are you? I'm a sports writer. Oh, that's so cool. What do you cover? Soccer. Oh, do you cover like real soccer or like MLS? Right. Like that's the normal conversation I have from a casual sports fan who thinks that MLS is like a fake league that does, you know, all they know is what they've heard since they were 12 from like cool soccer people who are like, oh, MLS sucks.
01:06:28
Speaker
How do you close that perception gap? And I think that's the harder challenge. And I think that goes to like the mix of the messy effect, signing some star players, signing the right star players at the right times and combining that with the increasing quality in play.
01:06:44
Speaker
So if you don't do that and you don't act fast enough to start to shrink those two gaps simultaneously, that's where I think that those gaps can actually get bigger. And, and that's where I think the problem gets bigger. So,
01:06:55
Speaker
You know, that's that's how I look at it. That's how, ah and and reporting this book only reinforced that for me, telling the story of how the landscape has changed, what the league is dealing with, hearing owners acknowledge some of this and talk about how they're having these same discussions behind closed doors. Like this is the moment the league is in.
01:07:14
Speaker
This is what the book is about. This is why Messi coming here mattered and and why it could still matter and why it could be the thing that changes the league. And and I think we we should acknowledge Like that's what Beckham did.
01:07:26
Speaker
Like DP rule was created for Beckham and the DP rule changed the league forever. And it didn't do it right away. Like Grant Wall gave an interview to the New York times in 2009, when his book came out two years after Beckham came, Beckham hadn't won an MLS cup.
01:07:40
Speaker
the The end of the Beckham experiment is like, essentially this experiment was a failure. And he says in the interview, like not a lot of MLS owners are are embracing the DP rule. Only three teams have DPs or something to that effect.
01:07:52
Speaker
And, you know, 2010 comes, they sign Robbie Keane, they win an MLS cup and Thierry Henry comes and the DP rule starts to roll and take effect. And the league changes forever for the good. And here we are two decades later, Beckham's a brand is still attached to MLS. He's on the field at MLS cup.
01:08:09
Speaker
He bought an expansion team. He brought Messi with the same rule that was created for him. that That is the lasting impact of Beckham. He dragged MLS from infancy into adolescence. And Messi is an opportunity to drag this league from adolescence into adulthood. But what we should learn from that is it didn't happen until the owners embraced the DP rule.
01:08:31
Speaker
It wasn't Beckham that changed it. It was the owners embracing the opportunity that Beckham brought. And it's the same for and MLS now. Messi's here. He opened the door for opportunity, but it won't matter if the owners don't take that opportunity. And I think that's where we are today, where they've taken the first step in that process.
01:08:50
Speaker
There's still one more really big step they have to take. And that will determine whether the messy effect is this amazing commercial and sporting blip that we talk about. And it dies when he when he leaves the league and kind of fades away, or whether it's the lasting change that Beckham brought.
01:09:09
Speaker
Yeah, well, and I just want to i want to run something by you, and let me know tell if i'm if I'm being too pedantic about this. But I would argue that MLS has actually closed the gap globally on at like for a lot of leagues. like it's It was probably, let's just say, maybe it was the 20th best league league.
01:09:30
Speaker
10 years ago, I think you can argue it might be the 10th best league. But the thing is is, that it's not that important to go from 20th to 10th by itself. Like that's like, for some reason, MLS has sort of pegged itself to this idea that we will be one of the best leagues in the world. And somehow that's become the 10th best or whatever. Right.
01:09:49
Speaker
In reality, the American sports fan sports fans in general, don't really care about being 10th best. They want to be one of you know In the same conversation as being able to argue whether Italy is better than England or Germany is better than Italy or France or whatever, right?
01:10:06
Speaker
You want to get into that top five range. And the gap between 10 and 5 is still as big, if not bigger, than it has ever been. And more to the point, MLS doesn't want to be the Eredivisie.
01:10:18
Speaker
Big deal. You're better than the Eredivisie. You're bigger than a a team in a relatively small or a league in a relatively small European market. That's not the goal here. The goal is to you have the entire United, the whole North America is your play field.
01:10:33
Speaker
If you're a serious soccer league, you need to have designs on being a soccer league that is ah that is worthy of being the best in North America, which has this limitless potential. And I think that's what you're really ultimately talking about is it's not about, does MLS have a viable soccer league? Sure.
01:10:53
Speaker
Like, is it, is MLS a bunch of farmers or whatever the the saying is? No, like it's a real soccer league, but that doesn't meet it for it, for it to really be
Debate on MLS's Global Ranking
01:11:02
Speaker
viable. It has to be much bigger than that.
01:11:04
Speaker
Yeah. And I think also, I mean, that would be one of the things that I found was the most debated topic of like, where does and MLS rank globally? Like when I have conversations with, I'll just say two different people who work in two different data companies that in soccer, like, mm-hmm.
01:11:20
Speaker
both of them, both of their companies' data shows MLS to rank well below the number you just put it at. Right? So like when I talk to like owners and MLS executives, they are like, it is the 10th best league or the 8th best league or the 12th best leagues. And then I talk to these people who work at these data, soccer data companies, and they're like, well, not in our rankings. You know, you're talking about like the 30th best league, you know, like that's how big the difference is. So there's, there's that part of it too, where it's like global soccer is improving faster and faster and faster. Like the globalization of the sport is making a lot of leagues better. And people can point to the fact that some of the best players in this league, you know, were okay players in Scandinavia and came here and became MVPs of the league, right? Like Evander and Bwongo, we can look at where they were playing before and what their success was and what they'd happen here. But I think you can pick and choose that,
01:12:16
Speaker
going the other way with players, right? Of like players who are okay here and went somewhere else and thrived, right? But like, i think there's that part of it too, of like really, truly, i don't know that we have a firm grasp on like where MLS actually stands in the global landscape. But to your point, I don't think it matters. I think you're right. Right.
01:12:33
Speaker
That for the the league to be successful, It actually has to be what the what the owners and executives of in the league say it wants to be, which is one of the best very best leagues in the world. And at a bare minimum, they should be saying we are the best league in this hemisphere, which is an achievable goal, but they are clearly not that right now.
01:12:53
Speaker
And so how do you get there where you are a better league than the Brazilian league, which showed much better than you on your home soil in the club world cup, that you're a better league than league MX. And not just when you play every single game at home in the leagues cup, but when you have to go to their house and win competitive games in the champions league, right? Champions cup.
01:13:12
Speaker
better than the Argentinian, like what can you do to, to, to actually start to be the best or one of the best. And, and that is, i think at the crux of, of the problem here for MLS, it's, it's just not there right now. And I really firmly believe that you don't have to change that much, how much you're spending. Like a lot of these leagues are spending enough money, but when it's focused on too few of the players, it can't have as big of an impact.
01:13:39
Speaker
All that being said, i what makes me, I think, five months ago, four months ago, when I had this conversation with an owner who asked me, am I more optimistic or more pessimistic after I was more pessimistic.
01:13:55
Speaker
The fact that they are acknowledging and working towards the ah a solution and and saying, we know we have to change. We know we have to get better. That makes me at least optimistic that the that they could get there, that the solution is out there, that they're working toward it.
01:14:14
Speaker
I'm not ready to say with 100% certainty that they'll get there, that they'll get there in time. But i think um i think that the I think that the board understands the problem And that's that's a really important step where I don't think when Messi got here in 2023, don't think there was that understanding of like the problem for MLS and its growth. And and I think they've they've gotten... that They had to reverse engineer some stuff. you know It's all in the book of like how they work towards this change and why they did it the way they did and all of that.
01:14:48
Speaker
um And there are some interesting and cool moments, I should say, behind the scenes of Messi and Miami that I think are, are just cool when you get a peek at what life is like, you know, with Messi as your teammate.
01:15:00
Speaker
But like, there's a lot of stuff in here about, you know, what all the things we're talking about now, which is like why the the business and the landscape itself is pushing the league towards these changes and what, what the league needs out of those changes.
01:15:14
Speaker
um But like I said at the beginning of this, like I, I,
01:15:20
Speaker
I don't think I can, I don't think I can tie that story in a bow because they, they still have to make the biggest decision, which is like how the spending in this league changes to make the product better. Yeah. I guess the better bow tying story would have been coming out of that, uh, that meeting in, in December saying, actually guys, here's the new plan going. It's not just a calendar change.
01:15:42
Speaker
There's a $25 million dollars salary cap and you can spend it however you want. Yeah. Or yeah. Like if I had, if, if like, I think if if the league had done this on an ideal timeline from the moment Messi arrived, they might have made those announcements at the end of 2024 or early 2025 saying we're getting we're flipping. you know It would have been December of 24 in New York rather than December of 25 in Palm Beach or November of 25 in Palm Beach.
01:16:09
Speaker
saying we're flipping the calendar coming out of the World Cup, we're changing the roster rules, we've run redone the CBA, a new MLS is coming to you. And we would have seen the first part of 2026 all being this enormous advertising push on Fox, which is partners with MLS and also happens to be airing the World Cup, saying the new MLS launching,
01:16:32
Speaker
you know, three days before the world cup final or three days after the world cup final. And instead what they're going to do is they're going to spend all of that time saying a new um MLS is coming in 2027. ah new um MLS is coming in 2027. Here are two thirds of the things that we're doing.
01:16:46
Speaker
We think we're doing this third thing. Please stick around and wait till 2027 and see how great we are. and then it and And it's just, you know, it might work. These changes might still work. It might not matter. The magnitude I think immediately will, will certainly be impacted, but like,
01:17:03
Speaker
you laughed because it sounds, it's like it's a way harder pitch to make to the new fans. Yeah, I mean, it's, you can literally not ask for a better platform than to launch it off of the World Cup and instead they're not going to be able to launch it off the World Cup. So they're going to be, it may work, but it won't be as easy as it would have been otherwise. And I don't think there's any way of denying it that if they had gotten all their ducks in a row faster, that this could have happened. And and they can still do stuff. Like, I mean, like, again, my friend coming out of December, 2022, right then was like, I want to watch more soccer.
01:17:37
Speaker
I'm choosing the premier league. So to that point of like, people are going to do that, that are going to go to world cup games in their backyard. and they're going to say, I want soccer and MLS could go and say, ah make Make a mandate and tell these owners, like, go and sign players.
01:17:51
Speaker
Like, summer 26, like, go and sign big-name players. Spend money. know You know what's coming in 2027. know we're going to change the rules. We have to be aggressive in this window.
01:18:02
Speaker
We have to give people a reason to that went to games in Houston to go to games in Houston again. for the Dynamo this time. And we have to give them a reason to go from Jerry land down to Frisco. And we have to give them a reason to go from SoFi over to BMO or to dignity health sports park, like from going to a world cup game, watching the U S against Australia at Lumen field to coming back and watching the Sounders at
Hope for American Soccer's Success
01:18:27
Speaker
Lumen field. So you can still make moves toward that, but yeah, it would have been better to have it all ready to rock.
01:18:34
Speaker
um i still I still believe, or maybe it's hope, because i I cover American soccer. My livelihood is tied to the success of American soccer, which includes the success of domestic leagues.
01:18:45
Speaker
I hope they get it right, and I hope it takes off in 2027. And I'm not rooting against MLS or rooting against the Sounders or any team or rooting more for Miami or Messi. I'm not rooting Miami.
01:18:57
Speaker
I want soccer to to thrive here. and i And I don't mean that just as the sport. I want the domestic league to thrive here because I think that's important for the national team. I think it's important for the sport.
01:19:08
Speaker
um And so, yeah, to it's a weird it's a weird thing to admit as a journalist, but like I do think as a soccer journalist, when you're in this little niche world and this a sport I grew up loving from the day I was born, like i want i want this to work out um and and to work well. and And so I think like a part of me holds out hope that it'll go, it'll go the right way for 2027.
Pre-ordering The Messi Effect Book
01:19:32
Speaker
Well, Paul, ah this is great. If you want, I would love to come back out and and like after ah break take a break, come back, talk a little bit about stuff that's not in the book about the world cup.
01:19:43
Speaker
But I think, i just want to say, i think this is going fascinating book. People can pre-order it now, right? They can go to... Where can they pre-order this thing? pre-order it anywhere you buy your books now. You can go to Amazon. You can go to bookshop.org, Barnes & Noble. Look up The Messy Effect. Wherever you buy your books, you can pre-order it now, and it comes out. It'll be delivered to your door ah in time, June 9th, for the start of the World Cup. You can get some reading in before the U.S. opens the tournament on June 12th.
01:20:12
Speaker
That sounds great. ah So, Paul, we'll come back. Maybe we'll do another segment on the World Cup. You cool? Hang out for another 20 minutes? Sure. All right. Well, ah with that, i'm gonna'll we'll come back on the other side. ah You're listening to Nos Arietes.
Sounder at Heart Podcast Membership Perks
01:20:30
Speaker
Thank you for listening to the Sounder at Heart Podcast Network, which now includes Nos Adietes, Loving Scorchers, and The Cooler Guild. Although this podcast is free, it's only made possible through our paid subscribers. Plans start as low as $30 a year and allow us to remain independent and mostly ad-free. subscribers get access to all our written and podcast content, including a full text RSS feed and a mostly ad free podcast feed that includes every show in one spot. If you really like what we're doing, though, I'd encourage you to sign up at our higher tiers, which include all sorts of various perks. The most popular of those is our members only discord or the real Sounders sickos hang out. I know I've called this group the smartest, funniest and best informed Sounders fans in the world, but it's more than the rough equivalent of a Sounders Mensa meeting. Discord is where we make things happen. Like, for real. You know the promotion the Sounders ran that offered fans the opportunity to trade in their messy jersey for a Paul Rothrock one? That originated in our community. You'll not only be the first to know about stuff, but you also have a semi-direct line to the movers and shakers at the Sounders organization. If you want to be one of the totally normal people who occupy the Sounder at Heart Discord, just become a supporter of Sounder at Heart. Anyway, thanks for listening, and go Ders.
01:21:45
Speaker
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US Men's National Team's Performance Turnaround
01:22:49
Speaker
Welcome back to Nos Adietes. I'm back with Paul Tenorio. We talked a lot about the messy effect. Something that is not as directly influenced in this book or referenced in this book is the World Cup, of course. We're in the middle of the final run-up. it It's about six months away now. ah The U.S. s national team seems to be hitting its stride.
01:23:12
Speaker
I would have said a year ago, even not even a year ago, four months ago, I was having conversations about how depressing this was all lining up from a American soccer fan perspective. Like it seemed like the U S was sort of in the wilderness as ah As a Sounders fan, I felt like I had no i had no i had no no connection to this team.
01:23:33
Speaker
And then they call in, Christian rolled on, and everything changes. All of a sudden, the U.S. is flying. Christian looks like he might actually be not just on this team, but maybe an important part of this team. ah is it is it as rapid Is this turnaround been as rapid as it seems from the outside about you know the last three or four months? Yeah.
01:23:52
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it has been. I love that you framed it that way, by the way, because I love Christian. Hold on. ah Christian showed up and everything changed and it kind of did work out that way. It's kind of crazy how much those two things coincided, right? Yeah. I mean, look, I think i think the reality is that there was a moment in time. i was in Denver in October and I had this conversation with my brother and ah another friend of mine who lives there where I was convinced. i was I'm always...
01:24:19
Speaker
I feel like maybe I'm wrong in saying this. People will probably argue with me about this that know me, that listen to this. I try to come at things from an optimistic point of view when I can. And like, I want good things to happen. So at the beginning of Pogetino, I was like very much like he knows what he's doing. He's a hugely successful manager. Like trust the process, trust the process, trust the process.
Pochettino's Coaching Strategy and Impact
01:24:39
Speaker
And I was reporting it that way and kind of like pumping the brakes on people that were panicking. And then there was a moment in time before the Gold Cup, the friendly against Switzerland, where I came down hard on Pochettino. And i was like, this is not helping what you want to be doing, which is like sending a message to these players who I believed needed a message sent to them. Like, this is not going to work this way. If you put guys out there who are incapable of competing at ah a high level, you're going to do the opposite of And so I was like wavering.
01:25:05
Speaker
And even coming out of the Gold Cup, I felt like uncertain. And then after the Japan game in September when they won and it was a ah Japan lineup that had changed completely, i still wasn't all the way there. And then i I started to do some reporting as I always do and and have conversations with people around the team, or around the staff.
01:25:24
Speaker
And you know, I'm in October camp. I sat with Christian Roldan in the lobby of the hotel and did an interview with him. And I chatted with him and I, and I, I came away and went to get drinks with some friends. And I said like, I think Pochettino might actually be a genius. Like, I think this is going to work. And, and my, my friend was like, so disappointed in me. Cause he's like, so, um,
01:25:47
Speaker
Cynical. And he was like, oh and he making fun of me, you know, but I think, I think like my instinct in October was right. i was being, i was being extreme as one does when you're having beers with a friend. But like, i what I recognized in October was that there was a purpose to everything that was being done. interaction, every interaction,
01:26:08
Speaker
every And two, I've worked in a lot of sports, covering a lot of sports, high school football, high school soccer, NFL, college football, college basketball, MLS, like US men's national team for a long time. like I think that like Pochettino might be one of the most purposeful people I've encountered in terms of like how he sends messages and how he thinks through everything he does, like everything he does.
01:26:37
Speaker
And I started to realize that in October. And I think like, the results are happening because those things are starting to take effect. Like those messages, the, the he, he manufactured competition in a pool that didn't have any before where 15 guys knew they were going to the world cup. And that is not the case anymore. And I didn't think that was possible. And those guys that I doubted, some of them were on the field against Switzerland guys like Sebastian Berhalter, who, you know, Max Arsten, like, know,
01:27:09
Speaker
Matt Freeze, like Matt Freeze wasn't on the field in that game, but like they have become like legitimate contenders to play and start and have a role. Christian Rodon came in October and, you know, and and I give him credit. And I do think that it's been a very tumultuous year plus, but I think all of the work he did, all of the kind of really intentional messages he sent and ways he worked and things he told people and behind the scenes and in front of the cameras and every press conference he's doing everything.
01:27:39
Speaker
Everything he says, he says for a reason, like I think has worked. Now, the next challenge is what does it look like in March when you start to bring some of these guys back in again, right? Like the guys who delivered the win against Uruguay, it's not Weston McKinney, it's not Tyler Adams, it's not Tim Weah, it's not Christian Pulisic, it's not Anthony Robinson. You know, what happens when you start bringing those guys back in?
01:28:03
Speaker
But I do think that the U.S. is in a better place today than it's been in a really long time, maybe since... getting on the plane, coming back from Qatar and and things fell apart very quickly after that. It is been it is is is funny to just think the the way that it's changed. And i and i I mean, I would go...
01:28:21
Speaker
in addition to saying the team seemed to be in a bad place, you know prior to you know coming out of the World, out of the Gold Cup, it almost seemed like, does Pochettino even really want to be? like is it is it Is it unthinkable to think that if someone comes in and offers him a Premier League job that he wouldn't just bail on the US? And now it's almost impossible to imagine. He seems very committed, and I think maybe we were misreading the signs, or I was misreading the signs, but he seems very into the project. He seems very...
01:28:51
Speaker
like committed to the idea that the U S should go into the world cup, believing in itself that it can, that it can make a real run at this thing. And, you know, it is, I, I tried this out on, on our friend, Adam bells of scuffed.
01:29:06
Speaker
And I'm curious what you think of it is that, Pochettino is going to end up being the right coach for all the reasons we didn't really expect him to be, which was, you know, he didn't come in and start playing badge FC and he didn't come in and and sort of like just get the, just come in here to get the best out of the best players. It was this idea that no, the domestic player has something to offer to this club, this, this organization, this team, and that we have to get the best out of that. And that will hopefully push the, the badge FC guys to be the best that they can possibly be.
01:29:39
Speaker
But the badge FC guys can't just assume that because they play for ah this team, that they're going to be starting, let alone, like might not even be on the, in the roster.
01:29:50
Speaker
Yeah. i mean, that's exactly what he did, right? Like he, he, He created competition and competition, real genuine competition makes teams better. And that's what he did. i mean, he got the guys who we would never have considered to be World Cup players to start playing like them and to really believe they have a chance to play at a World Cup.
01:30:10
Speaker
Like, I think Sebastian Berhalter is the best example, which is ironic for obvious. It's just crazy that the son of the former coach is the poster boy for what this coach has done. But like, he is the guy who like nobody would have put Sebastian Berhalter on the plane to Irvine, California for training camp for the World Cup. And this dude wasn't on the plane to go to January camp. Right. And this guy could end up taking Weston McKinney's job.
01:30:37
Speaker
Like seriously, seriously, which is, and and he might not, he might still make the plane and Weston McKinney might also still be there. But Weston McKinney has to also be looking over his shoulder thinking this guy might take my job and believe it and actually believe it. And that's the hard part. And that's where I had my doubts against Switzerland and and Turkey where I was like, this team is not good enough. So those guys are sitting at home like,
01:31:01
Speaker
cool, man, call me when you want to win games against world-class competition. And I was, it was just too early. Like I was like quick to judge and like not see the, the longer term benefit. And it and there was no guarantee what happened, but it happened.
01:31:15
Speaker
Right. Even then coming out of the gold cup, I wasn't that convinced coming out of the gold cup. Like I wasn't like Diego Luna is like playing guys out of a team. Other people love Diego Luna and that's fine. He's a good player, but I wasn't, I didn't go, you know, I watched him against Mexico in the final and I was like, all right, like,
01:31:31
Speaker
cool. No, like it was building belief in that group in that moment that would then carry over into September and October. And that belief would keep building and building and building. And, and that's what we've seen as that belief, as that flame has grown bigger in that gold cup group and the guys on the fringes of that gold cup, it's now forcing.
01:31:53
Speaker
and and I don't think it was a coincidence that after that five, one win over Uruguay, The next weekend in Europe, all of the European-based players that weren't there scored goals or had assists.
01:32:06
Speaker
That's not a coincidence, man. That's like all of those guys being like, I need to show out. I need to show that I should be in the team. like I believe that. I believe that that that they're watching and they're saying, like I want to be at a home World Cup.
01:32:21
Speaker
And I need to show it. And that's the whole point. That's the whole point. And I give credit to Pochettino. Like, I really doubted that you could create that. I understand the argument of like, let's just take our 15 best players who are world-class playing at these big clubs. That's the best we've got. They're the only ones who can compete against the best teams in the world.
01:32:41
Speaker
We need to focus on them. i think that's what Greg Berhalter was doing. like We need to focus on them, make them as good as possible to have our best chance. and And it's a different strategy to say, yes, that might be true.
01:32:54
Speaker
But the way we get more out of them is getting more out of 16 through 40. And by making 16 through 40 much better, we're going to make 1 through 15 better too.
01:33:05
Speaker
And maybe some of the 16 to 40 will surprise us and become one of the 1 through 15. and I think there's also an element of Greg Berhalter didn't have the... like I don't think he can tell...
01:33:18
Speaker
ah Christian Pulisic that you're might not be on this team like I just don't think that's it's it's a different it's different when it's coming from Greg Berhalter as opposed to Pochettino who says hey look if if we flame out at the World Cup i'll I'll get another job it doesn't matter like if you this is your guys this thing if if if I have if you guys go win this in the World Cup guess what I'm still I'll be fine Not just that, I don't know.
01:33:44
Speaker
it's It's what he said that people don't like. But like what he said is like like he's coached Messi and Mbappe and Neymar. Right. And so what did he come out and say? Unless you have Messi or Maradona or Pelé on the back of you your jersey, you're not undroppable.
01:33:58
Speaker
You're not untouchable. I've coached real stars. You think you're a real star? I've coached real stars. You're not a real star. Yeah. Berhalter couldn't say that.
01:34:09
Speaker
Of course. And so it informed Pochettino's strategy and it worked. And I thought at first that it would just turn people off and you'd lose the team. And that's what it looked like, right? March, it just looked like, oh man, this is bad.
01:34:21
Speaker
And, but no, it's worked. I think, i mean, I think it's worked again. Let's see what it looks like in March because I do think, you know, believing that the team that went out and beat Uruguay and that friendly is going to be a team that can go out and win world cup knockout games. I think there's still like a leap to make there.
01:34:38
Speaker
in in saying like, we're going to drop every single one of our stars, right. Or our our players who are playing in Europe and that's not going to happen. But I do think the next step of this process that has worked so well is to bring those guys back into the team and, and make the competition happen in the camp.
01:34:54
Speaker
And, and I think that will happen. And I'm, you know, working on some stories for the athletic for March and for the pre world cup camp already, where I've talked to guys about what it's like in those last camps before a world cup, where,
01:35:08
Speaker
You just, it's like not enjoyable, man, because you're you're competing. for a job at a world cup. And like, these are your friends and your brothers and you've been through it with them, but you want to go to a world cup. And until that roster gets announced and you're all on the bus and you're pulling in the same direction and you're all, then you bond in a different way, right? You bond in a way of like, we're team USA, we're doing this together, whatever. But that last camp before the world cup, it's like, everyone's like, you take it up to that line in training where you're just
01:35:39
Speaker
crushing each other because everyone wants a spot. And like, that's going to be March. and And that's going to be a critical test of like, what does that look like? Does he get that? Does he get that response that he wants out of Christian Pulisic and Weston McKinney and Tim Weah and Anthony Robinson and and all of those guys? And what is that?
01:36:01
Speaker
I think if he gets that response and that competition is right there, i think that's where you start to say, we've got our best team.
Preparing US Team for World Cup
01:36:10
Speaker
Yeah, and I suppose on a similar token to to why he's doing this is that Pochettino probably knows that like getting out of the group is not a... No one no one gives him... That's not an achievement for him.
01:36:26
Speaker
ah getting to the quarterfinals may or may not be that. Like, I think that would be probably the bare minimum for what many of us would consider a real achievement. But I would imagine for him, it's like, it's, it is getting into that final four that that's where, and in order to, for the U S to outshoot its talent, which was what it would, that would, what that would take is,
01:36:46
Speaker
pretty significantly out shooting its, its talent. Is they going to need a way to have their best players rise above their, even what they think their best level is?
01:36:57
Speaker
Definitely. Definitely. And that's the only way you do that the test competition. Right. Yeah. You want these guys, you want, In an ideal world, you want Sebastian Berhalter and Christian Rodon playing their absolute best soccer and that not being enough to get on the field because it pushes Tyler Adams and Weston McKinney to the next level.
01:37:17
Speaker
Now, maybe a bad example because I'm a firm believer that whoever plays with Tyler Adams should sit behind him. And I use Christian Rodon as that example all the time. But that's the that's the point of that is saying like, yeah Those guys are good players, important to the squad, important team guys, and that their most valuable contribution might be that they get that extra couple percent out of the other players who can then win that, that next game. Right. Like, and not that they can't contribute other ways. Like Sebastian Berhalter might come on late in a game where they need a goal and serve a perfect set piece and, you know, do what, you know, that, that could be his role, you know, and Christian Rodan could be the guy who wins a starting job because they need somebody who will sit behind Tyler and, you know, he pushes and pushes and pushes and Tanner Tessman, you know, is probably the guy that everyone thinks in their mind is more talented and better physical profile. And,
01:38:08
Speaker
maybe he gets hurt or he gets a couple of yellows and Christian Roldan comes on to the all important knockout game, first knockout. And you have to trust that those guys can do it. And that's the other thing I think Pochettino has done. He has put, he has shown those guys.
01:38:23
Speaker
I trust you. And when I say I trust you, I trust you now in a friendly against Uruguay. And that means I'm going to trust you in the knockout game in San Francisco when we need to win and so-and-so is hurt.
01:38:34
Speaker
When I put you in the or not hurt and I put you in the starting lineup then because I trust you and that you hope that that belief carries through. Well, hopefully we see it in Seattle when they're playing Belgium for a spot in the quarterfinals, right?
01:38:48
Speaker
That's the... ah That's right. I couldn't. Yeah, you're right. i won There'll be a couple trips to Seattle. I'll tell you what, man, the Airbnb market tough in Seattle right now for the U.S. game. I can only imagine.
01:38:59
Speaker
I can only imagine. The hotel game was so tough that I moved to the Airbnb game, but we found one. We're good. You did. Yeah. I mean, I'm not in Seattle, but I'm not in Seattle. You're not in Seattle. There you go. That's the answer. it too tough. I'm in, I'm in, let me look up exactly where I am. I'm in Bellevue.
01:39:19
Speaker
Which I heard is a nice neighborhood. That is definitely not Seattle. heard it's a nice neighborhood though. I mean, yeah. And it might we might even have transit going across the bridge. that That's what was told. You know, I have sources in Seattle that I sent my properties to before I booked.
01:39:35
Speaker
Fingers crossed on that one. Fingers crossed on that one. but Was that in Tacoma? and And I was told Bellevue would be an easier commute. much Either way, you're better off in Bellevue than Tacoma. That's for sure.
01:39:46
Speaker
yeah All right. Well, Paul, you've been more than gracious with your time. I'm going give another plug. Your book is going to be coming out in June, but you don't need to wait until June to buy it.
01:39:57
Speaker
You can get it on pre-order. You can have it all queued up and it's going to show up in your mailbox before anyone else. And ah you can do that. Again, where can they they just look for the messy effect on Bookshop.org or Amazon. Bookshop.org, which supports independent bookstores. If that's if that's your preference, and I obviously you know give a shout out to that. I've got a couple of friends who own independent bookstores. um Nice. so Or you could go with your you know Amazon Prime, whatever.
01:40:27
Speaker
But yes, please go and pre-order it. And, um, and and hopefully, hopefully it's a story that the listeners of this podcast who are clearly MLS fans and Seattle Sounders fans, maybe as we laid out, um, we'll find interesting. When are you going to start doing your reading tour?
01:40:43
Speaker
I don't know, man. My book comes out three days before the audio track. I'll probably, that's a good question. I got stay school trying to record my book already. So we'll see what, we'll see who does the book.
01:40:54
Speaker
All right. Well, yeah. ah You know, if you need any ah you need any ah help there, always happy to lend a voice. Thank you. appreciate that. You'd be surprised at how many people want to read read my book. Oh, I would not be surprised at all. I was told by a friend that it's really important, whoever it is, that he's ah a big consumer of audiobooks and the the reader is incredibly important to keep people engaged and get through the book. so Yeah, it should be you, shouldn't it?
01:41:21
Speaker
I mean, i i' I haven't been asked yet, but i'm sure i'm I'm sure they're not going to pay somebody to do it. So yeah, it'll probably be me. All right. Well, ah Paul, thank you again for hanging out and being so gracious with your time. I am i am honestly looking forward to reading this book.
01:41:38
Speaker
And ah yeah, we'll get out of here with that. I'm Jeremiah Shan. This is No Sardietes, part of the Sounder Heart Podcast Network, and we will catch you next time.
01:42:16
Speaker
Let's go at Sounders.