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The Curse of the Wasatch Valley continues; USL talk with guest John Morrissey of Backheeled
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Another season and another road loss at Real Salt Lake. Aaron and Jeremiah do a bit of a debrief on this latest loss down at what was formerly known as Rio Tinto stadium. The guys also dive into the remaining games on this roadtrip as well as figuring out how many points we need for this stretch to keep at least one foot out of doom. In the second segment as part of a crossover event with Lobbing Scorchers Jeremiah talks to John Morrissey of Backheeled about the convergence of USL, MLS and MLS NextPro.
Follow John Morrissey on Backheeled.
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Transcript
Sounders and Sponsorships
00:00:01
Speaker
Hi, I'm Will Bruin, and I was just recognized as a Seattle Sounders legend. Now I get to do voice reads for the Sounder at Heart podcast network. Here we go.
00:00:11
Speaker
Come on. Hey, O'Shaughness. Let's The Seattle Sounders have done it. MLS Cup winners. The Sounders rule the region.
00:00:43
Speaker
Ooch of a gooch! All creatures, great and small! Rothrock gonna collect it, he does about, runs into the advertising order. Low to our left, ball goes in! Oh, what cross! And what goal! Where's my copy? got bunch of them in the car. How many do you cost them? 50 bucks.
00:01:08
Speaker
I'll deadline you.
00:01:18
Speaker
This episode of Nos Arietes is sponsored by Full Pull Wines, a Seattle-based wine retailer and proud sponsor of Nos Arietes since 2011. Full Pull was founded in 2009, is based in Seattle, and is owned and operated by longtime Sounder supporters.
00:01:32
Speaker
They offer the best boutique wines of the world to members of their mailing list, with special focus on their home, Pacific Northwest.
00:01:41
Speaker
Welcome back to another episode of Nos Adieta as part of the Sounder at Heart podcast network sponsored by Full Pull Wines and our
Sounders vs RSL: A Historical Struggle
00:01:49
Speaker
subscribers. We're recording on Monday, March 2nd, 2026. I am your host, Jeremiah Shan.
00:01:54
Speaker
I am once again joined by my co-host Aaron Campo and engineer Lickett. While the Sounders went to RSL and like they have in each of the past 15 trips, they failed to win.
00:02:08
Speaker
I would say they were more competitive than they have been in a lot of those games. They probably should have been up 1-0, if not two zero But ultimately, they gave up the first and second goal, pulled one back, looked like they had an equalizer, but it was ruled offside correctly, I'll note.
00:02:26
Speaker
And once again, the Sounders have now gone... Oh, 13 and three in their last 16 games at RSL. Aaron, I don't know what to, I don't know if there's much to make of this other than the Sounders just cannot win at RSL.
00:02:46
Speaker
Yeah. the last time the Sounders won a regular season game at RSL, um, I missed it because I was at my sister's wedding. And then, ah one year later, my nephew was born and, he just started middle school this year.
00:03:03
Speaker
uh, yeah, so that's, you know, 15 years. mean, 15 years, I was relatively felt 15 years ago. Uh, I think I wore a size larger medium even sometimes, uh,
00:03:22
Speaker
Barack Obama was president. Yeah. We've had four presidential election. but I've had two kids. Uh, two kids, right? Yeah. Cause I mean, eight Olympics, there have been eight Olympics since the last time. the sound just what Yeah. I mean, they did win a playoff game there.
Game Analysis: Defensive Lapses and Missed Chances
00:03:39
Speaker
Yes. The next year. So it's been, so most of this stuff still holds true. You know, it's funny. i Maybe this is me being naive, but honestly, if the Sounders had a playoff game at RSL, I would not be free. Like I would give them a good chance. Sure.
00:03:57
Speaker
I mean, I give them a good chance every week because I don't. Right. I'm not super serve. Not every week, but every time they play an RSL because I'm not a superstitious person. I really thought this time, though.
00:04:08
Speaker
I did, too. Yeah. I mean, it looked. it looked like as good an opportunity as they were going to get. Um, RSL had a heavily rotated lineup. They had some injuries. Sounders looked great against Colorado. Um, unfortunately turns out some of those guys that rotate in and can play and, uh, yeah, I was, i was impressed with RSL, man. I, uh, I guess we can just dive in. Um, I, I thought that, you know, the Sounders certainly did not play enough well enough to feel like they, um,
00:04:39
Speaker
should have won or or that you know losing was an unfair result by any stretch. But I didn't think they played that poorly. and They had some really unfortunate mistakes that were punished pretty harshly. They were not able to take advantage of similar mistakes by our RSL.
00:04:55
Speaker
And, you know, that's just the way it goes sometimes. But RSL, I thought, was legitimately very good. i was impressed with the young guys. i was impressed um with their new d DP striker that they brought on in the second half. I thought that that change was one of the the key things because, you know, he comes into the game, the Sounders had been pretty dominant, looked like they might be getting an equalizer, and he comes on and instantly provides a threat that the Sounders now have to be conscious of.
00:05:22
Speaker
i thought I thought he was really good. I thought Sanabria was really good. ah Cabral had ah had a hell of a game, made two or three really great saves. And so, you know, as frustrating as a result as it was, um you you would like to beat division rival or ah conference rivals home or away. You'd at least like to get a point.
00:05:43
Speaker
um first game of a long long stretch on the road i think you'd like to get off to a little bit better of a start for you know omen reasons good omens and whatnot but um ultimately you know there just wasn't anything in this game that i look at and say i'm really concerned about that going forward ah I think that the defensive lapses were regrettable, unfortunate, but I think that they're also sort of part and parcel with the style the Sounders want to play. They're just going to yeah give up some opportunities like that. They need to execute a little better to make sure that they don't turn into goals.
00:06:19
Speaker
um But, you know, you you trade off some defensive security and some some stoutness at the back for the kind of pressure the Sounders were able to put on ah RSL for a lot of the game.
00:06:29
Speaker
And, you know, they just weren't able to execute when it mattered. And that that sucks. But ultimately, just not something I'm to lose a lot of sleep over. Well, let's dig in a little bit into some of those defensive miscues. The first goal, I think, is...
00:06:43
Speaker
you know, there's a lot, I think you can identify a lot of mistakes in the, in, in both goals, but the first goal really is a matter of a bunch of players get, I mean, Gozo essentially makes that goal where he breaks down a bunch of guys off the dribble that kind of happens. But then Hassani Dotson has an opportunity to clear the ball, does not clear the ball that restarts the sequence.
00:07:06
Speaker
And then ultimately, ah the goal scorer, Aiden, I can't remember how to say his last name, uh, basically is allowed to just get open in the, in the, in like 12 yards out and that someone needs to mark him. It's a great finish. It's a great ball.
00:07:26
Speaker
But there's just no way you can allow a professional soccer player to get a look like that inside the goal. And and he he finishes it well. You know, it's not going to always, that's not always going to be a goal. It requires a fair amount of skill. But the problem there is he just, there was a lot of defensive breakdowns.
00:07:44
Speaker
I don't expect that kind of thing to be happening all the time. You kind of just shrug your shoulders. Good, good job. The second goal is a little bit more one where,
00:07:56
Speaker
i want to I want to dig into this a little bit more because there are a few... there's a it On paper, you when it happens, you almost go like, well, why isn't that happening all the time? I mean, it's not a particularly complicated sequence of play. It's their right back sends a ball over the top to... Or their right center back sends a ball over the top to their right wing back.
00:08:20
Speaker
And he just beats... ah He beats Jackson Reagan for pace, which, you know, that's going to happen. Jackson Reagan is not going to beat a lot of wingbacks for pace. That's just, that's one of the the trade-offs with Jackson Reagan.
00:08:36
Speaker
But what was really frustrating was a, ah first of all, Paul Rothrock does not close down the passer particularly effectively. New who is sort of caught in no man's land and really the thing that bugged me was Yamar has a head start on Puel, the ultimate goal scorer on this.
00:08:56
Speaker
And Puel just has now he, he pulls away from Yamar almost the whole time. He also gets goal side on Yamar. Yamar is probably too far out to the right on this play to begin with.
00:09:11
Speaker
And so Puel makes a good run. ah And he's just there to tap in a really easy finish. And, I feel like this is one of those things that can be schemed away. Like you, you should be able to prevent this though, just with scheming in it out. Right.
00:09:30
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I think that this is just a classic defensive breakdown where there's not an obvious mistake like with the first goal with the giveaway. like That's more a situation where the defensive structure is broken on that play because no one is expecting pass to go directly to an RSL player in that situation. This was just a lot of people...
00:09:51
Speaker
um being in the wrong place, making bad decisions at pretty critical times and just putting themselves in the worst position to deal with the danger.
00:10:02
Speaker
Because you're right. Like you said, initially you would think that this would be a thing that would happen all the time because the Sounders play a very high line of confrontation. They they were doing that in this game. um RSL has some speedsters up front, but so do most teams, right? It's not like RSL is unique and having wingers with, with speed.
00:10:19
Speaker
And, The Sounders just did not react well to the situation. Nuhu and Yamar both looked like they just kind of were assuming offside at a certain point and and weren't really running super hard to chase the play. um And Nuhu was also, i'm i'm more frustrated with the center backs on this one because Nuhu was caught in a situation where he kind of has to stay with the trailing runner because if he doesn't,
00:10:44
Speaker
Right. Then no nobody's marking that trailing runner. So it's it's a difficult situation for him. But I do think that if he reacts a little quicker, he's got a pretty good, decent chance of of cutting out that the attack in general. And I think he just kind of got caught between decisions. But Yamar, I think, looks worse here um in in terms of chasing down the play. But I think Reagan was the one that was.
00:11:09
Speaker
the um was keeping the the runner. He was. So yeah, Reagan is like a ah full step or two deeper than Yamar to start the play. And if he's even with Yamar, it's probably offside.
00:11:24
Speaker
Right. I mean, when I, when I saw the goal, I said, that's definitely coming back. There's, you know, that's gotta be coming back. And no, I mean, they showed the the replay and he was pretty clearly onside. So um yeah, it's frustrating. And I think like,
00:11:40
Speaker
yeah On a very tough day for yeah Yamar, this was the worst and most consequential error, I would say. um And yeah, it's it's an annoying goal to give up because the Sounders had been, I think, the much better team and looked very likely to equalize coming out of the out of the break. And then they just get caught out in in a way that they don't. they just frequently They don't frequently get caught out that way.
00:12:05
Speaker
um And again, you play a high line like that, you run the risk of that happening. But this was not an intricate counterattack. This was the most, you know, textbook route one over the top ball you're ever going to see. And it you shouldn't get broken apart that easily by a ball like that, by a counterattack like that.
00:12:27
Speaker
Right, exactly.
Offensive Evaluation and Player Performances
00:12:28
Speaker
I mean, I think that's the thing is that this is the Sounders are going to defend this way. And, you know, it's not like the Sounders were. I saw a lot of complaints about the Sounders center backs being too far forward on that.
00:12:40
Speaker
I mean, they're around, they're on, they're on the defensive side of midfield. It's not a particularly aggressive high, you know, it's just like a modern high line. It's not even a particularly aggressive high line. And the Sounders also play very well for the most part, playing defensively like that. So I think it's kind of crazy to, to ask them to change the way they're defending because Theoretically, you don't have center backs who can run with this. they They should be able to figure this out without dramatically changing the way they play. ah
00:13:16
Speaker
And then it was funny, though, because the at that point, that those were really the two only good chances that ah RSL had up to that point in the game. And I think Andrew Thomas deserves some credit for keeping it from getting worse because they had a couple more good looks.
00:13:34
Speaker
Their new den designated player got out on a breakaway that ah Fry made a good stop on ah sorry that Thomas made a good stop on. And then I think Thomas made another good stop on a on a ball that the that their DP their new DP nine ah put in for ah for another runner.
00:13:52
Speaker
So, you know, I think there was some you know good moments from Andrew Thomas, at least defensively. but you know, the the thing that I oftentimes find my frustration is tied to is how much offense the Sounders were able to create.
00:14:07
Speaker
And I thought, they did a good job. You know, like I, according to American soccer analysis, they had the fifth best away ah expected goal of any team this year. They definitely created plenty of chances. I don't think that can be really debated. ah You know, early on the first big chance is that Yamar header where Jackson Reagan gets on a ball, cuts it back across the box. And Yamar really has the whole goal to look at, but he,
00:14:36
Speaker
You know, it's a bang, bang play ends up hitting it right at Cabral. What are you going to do? But that's, that probably should be a goal. And then the next one is, uh, Albert Rusnak gets in on guts, gets in on goal, has Cabral coming off of his line and he gets a little unlucky that Cabral just sort of makes himself big and is able to the keep the ball away.
00:14:57
Speaker
If either one of those go in, you know, it's probably a different game. The centers are up one, zero, the under By the way, they haven't led at ah RSL since 2020. This is the first goal they'd scored at RSL since 2020. They haven't. I don't think they've led.
00:15:14
Speaker
Well, they obviously haven't led since then. and They did lead in that game. But ah it's... ah And then they had a they had a few more you know good looks. Of course, they score when Christian Roldan puts his header past ah Cabral off of a a really nice Albert Rusnak corner kick.
00:15:31
Speaker
It looked like they had the equalizer just a few minutes later. And at that you know after the Christian Roldan score, it really felt like the Sounders were... playing with so men momentum.
00:15:42
Speaker
And it seemed like it, it seemed like it all came good when, when ah Paul Rothrock crossed it to Danny Masofsky, who void at home, unfortunately Rothrock was about a step off side. And what's really frustrating about that is he didn't need to be, he didn't gain an advantage by being offside. He was just sort of not precise with his run.
00:16:04
Speaker
If he times that run a little bit better, it's not even about timing the run. If he's just, You know, he he's never really getting on side. If he is just better about getting himself on side there, that's a goal. I mean, as it is, he he doesn't use the advantage of of it at all. He doesn't have to.
00:16:22
Speaker
he's He allows Quentin to catch up with him. That's actually what plays Mussovsky on side. And he puts in a really nice cross. And Mussovsky makes a really nice finish. And ah it doesn't count, of course.
00:16:35
Speaker
And then they had one more really, really good look. And that was Snyder Brunel getting on the end of a volley on what was essentially the game's final play. He hits it really well, but he hit it right at Cabral. But looked, I mean, that's that's five without. I mean, they had more, but that's five good looks on goal.
00:16:55
Speaker
And they got one goal out of it. I don't know. You kind of shrug your shoulders and, you know, they, they had possession a fair amount. They, you know, I thought for the most part, they, they attacked how you would want them to attack.
00:17:09
Speaker
ah and it just, you know, it's one of those games where, you know, we say this a lot, but it's one of those games where if it was just like a random opponent in the middle of the year, you don't really think twice about this loss because on paper that they didn't really do a lot bad. It's just that not being able to win at RSL sucks because it's, it yeah, it really does. It's just gone on for such an unbelievably long time.
00:17:34
Speaker
Yeah, it has. And, and they have, it it's not like, most of this run is post RSL's heyday, right? Like if you had said in going into that game in 2011 where the Sounders finally wanted RSL, I mean, RSL had had what, like the, they, what I think is still the longest. 29 straight unbeaten in league going into that game. It was a record that Sounders broke their record home unbeaten streak.
00:17:59
Speaker
um Yeah. And and i so if you'd said, yeah, they're going to the Sounders are are going to get this this one in this game, but then they're never going to win again and RSL. You'd say, OK, I can see that that they must have really established a dynasty. But no, they've they've been a pretty middling team for most of that time.
00:18:16
Speaker
And it's it's crazy. And, you know, I don't think it's anything other than. random chance. I don't think that it's the sounders and ability to play at altitude because they regularly beat Colorado.
00:18:32
Speaker
They've had success in Mexico at altitude before and all over Central America, all over Central America. Yeah. Uh, I don't think that it's a tactical thing because this goes back to, it's like five different coaches, six different coaches.
00:18:46
Speaker
who all had very different tactical styles. The Sounders have had different coaches and different tactical styles. um It's just, it's just one of those weird things. Although I wouldn't be shocked if there is at some point, but at this point, some kind of like mental block, right. About,
00:19:03
Speaker
going and playing at RSL. Um, that you know, you yeah you look at who was in this game, like Hassani Dawson doesn't have a mental block about it. Snyder Burdell doesn't have a mental block about it. Uh, sure.
00:19:13
Speaker
You know, ah a lot of the players who you would, you know, expect to be,
00:19:21
Speaker
traumatized her Yeah. ah we're We're not really even in this game. And what's funny is, you know, I i went back and read my story last year because i was like, what did I say about this game, this fixture last year? And I was reminded that it was actually similar circumstances.
00:19:35
Speaker
The Sounders were relatively healthy. They were coming off a resounding performance against Antigua. they were, they were kind of flying high going into this game. They were on short rest and they, you know, they had ah an another champions cup game the next week. So there was some of that, but then RSL had also just bombed out sort of embarrassingly in champions cup and we're not looking very good.
00:19:59
Speaker
And, Then, of course, the the difference last year is that the Sounders had this inexplicable own goal that knew who scored. But then they had similar there other similar things where, you know, Albert Rusnak scored, but it was offside in a similar way that Rothrock was offside where Jordan Morris was just like kind of sloppy with his run and and wasn't onside. But there was no really didn't really gain any advantage from it.
00:20:24
Speaker
And, you know, you can kind of get, of course, there was a play where Georgie Manungu was so far off side and didn't need to touch the ball, ah disallowing a Jordan Morris goal.
00:20:37
Speaker
it said But point being that there was, there were similarities to how it was last year and it's just a ongoing streak that makes no sense. I mean, there's been a lot of games in this streak where the sound is just like, like they were flat and you could, you could kind of buy into this idea that, well, there's something about what ah RSL is doing that is giving the sounders trouble.
00:21:00
Speaker
I don't think that's what's been going on the last couple years, at least where, ah The Sounders just seem like they, you know, it's just like dumb games, dumb games that I don't think you learn. Like, I just don't, I don't think we learned very much about the Sounders in this one.
00:21:17
Speaker
Like they could go on and win their next four road games. And I would say like, yeah, that makes sense. Right. Yeah. I, I don't take anything away. um i it is what it is. It's a, it's a frustrating game.
00:21:32
Speaker
um But I thought in the ways that I care about, Generally, in terms of like the the larger trends, um there just wasn't too much to be concerned about. i mean, I would say I'm ready to see what Danny Mazovsky can do.
00:21:45
Speaker
as the starting forward. i think that Dero earned the starts with his performances in preseason, and I don't think he's done a whole lot to to earn continued starts. I'm still high on him. I still think he has a great future, but you know I'm ready to see what the guy that almost broke the single-season scoring record last season can can do. He looked, I thought, pretty good in his his cameo. um He put the ball in the net on a really nice finish, a really nice run,
00:22:13
Speaker
he had nothing to do with the the offside goal there and also had that really, really nice cutback where he just like fought off a couple of defenders, cut it back and Cabral made a great save. um That that's one I hadn't really seen from him before. I didn't know he had that his locker. So um there are definitely things that i like more.
00:22:31
Speaker
Yeah. there There are definitely things I like more about the way Dero plays and the things, the the hard work he does, the dirty work you can do that Musavsky isn't quite as effective at, but yeah,
00:22:43
Speaker
you know, you'd like to see your, your nine getting a couple more chances than D-Row has managed to find in the first couple of games. Yeah. And you know, I think it brings up a good question of did D-Row, did D-Row ever win himself the number one job? I think he won himself some starts. Yeah.
00:23:00
Speaker
But I think there is maybe some jumping to conclusions about where he was sort of depth chart wise. And for me, this was always almost as much about if you know, if Mussofsky was not 100 percent the last couple of weeks of preseason and Osaza de Rosario is, you know, playing very well the way he did.
00:23:21
Speaker
Hard to really do much there, but I won't be, I won't be surprised if Danny Masofsky is starting this weekend. and It's not necessarily a slight on De Rosario. It's more of a commentary that, know, look at this is the guy who scored 18 goals at striker last year for the Sounders.
00:23:38
Speaker
He wasn't, you know, he hadn't really done anything to lose the job during preseason. If he's back starting, that's not a, that's not a negative on De Rosario. You know, De Rosario is going to get more chances. I assure you, uh, he might get chances even, i mean, he might get another starter too. I don't know, but I don't know. I'm, I would not be at all. So I don't know what's going to happen. I think we'll, we'll know obviously more when we go back to training on Tuesday, but,
00:24:08
Speaker
i I think there was you know if Wasofsky starts, I am totally good with that. And I think he did sort of give us reminders of why what makes him good and that he makes a lot of dangerous runs. you know he's not He's not flashy in terms of his hold-up play. He's not slinging dimes all around the field. He's not super fast.
00:24:32
Speaker
But man, he does a really good job of putting himself in dangerous spots. And, you know, he and he finishes enough of them.
00:24:42
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I thought this was a ah great example of that, the the goal that was called back where he just kind of pops up out of nowhere. Like he he's just he's making that great run. he he makes space and, you know, he's not an automatic finisher, certainly. no but I think the days of us, you know, wondering whether he's ever going to be able to finish our our well and truly over. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think that um if you're if you're getting a lot of goals from other players, how effective your nine is at converting chances and and creating chances isn't maybe as big of a deal.
00:25:18
Speaker
um And the Sounders got, you know, a couple of goals in the first game, but I mean, I think we did see why you'd like your number nine to be a little more goal dangerous and in this game because the Sounders did have some fairly clear cut chances that they weren't able to convert to put away.
00:25:36
Speaker
i think if Danny Masovsky is on the end of of either of those, there's a very good chance they go in. So, yeah. Yeah, i you know I think that there are games where Dero is maybe the better fit.
00:25:47
Speaker
And I think once Jordan is healthy, that's a whole other conversation, especially if Paul Rothrock continues to play really well. um But assuming he's he's ready to go 75 minutes or so, I'm i'm definitely i'm ready for moves, I think, next week.
Tactical Adjustments and Player Impact
00:26:02
Speaker
One other sort of tactical change that happened within this game was... Alex Roldan got moved to right center. The centers ah at some point moved to a three center back system and they essentially brought in Kalani Costa Rienzi for Yamar and then moved Alex Roldan back to right center back.
00:26:23
Speaker
I think there was a lot of folks that were wondering if that was a change that could herald, you know, ah some other change, you know, like that we might start seeing Alex Roldan playing center back, even when,
00:26:38
Speaker
even even when you have a healthy healthy yaymo and i don't know it It could happen, but I don't think that's what's happening here. Brian Schmetzer was pretty i clear that this was purely a tactical change that was responding to being down to zero and they just wanted more passers on the field. Yeah.
00:26:57
Speaker
you know Alex Rodon, obviously a better passer than Yamar. It did work pretty well. I think it's a nice it's a nice change to have in your arsenal. ah To be able to sort of for sure yeah do that, I think, is ah is is certainly helpful.
00:27:12
Speaker
ah the other The other personnel issue that I think a lot of people are going to be asking about Hassani Dotson starting over Snyder Brunel. Dotson did have that really bad giveaway, but I'll note that he also made a really nice run to set up what would have been the equalizer.
00:27:30
Speaker
And, you know, he he kind of created most of the space that ended up being there ah and allowed that that play to open up. So I don't know. i was i also think Snyder benefits from the game state where the Sounders were really chasing the game by the time he got into the game. So it wasn't like he had to...
00:27:50
Speaker
do a lot of two-way play. ah That said, I did like Snyder. I just don't think i don't think that we're really very close to seeing a change there.
00:28:03
Speaker
Yeah, I would like to see Snyder more in even game states um before I'm clamoring for Hassani Dotson to be replaced. and And also, I mean, look, Hassani had a rough giveaway.
00:28:15
Speaker
not great overall on the night, but Gamar was pretty bad too. And he's one of the best center backs in MLS. Like yeah sometimes it just happens. and And I do think that there was a tactical,
00:28:28
Speaker
um mismatch that really got exploited in the first half where the midfield was just under a lot of pressure. i thought Hassani looked a lot better in the second half after they made the tactical adjustment and went to three center backs and there was a little more support in the in the center of the pitch.
00:28:42
Speaker
um And he's, you know, he has a track record as a good player. I think he's he's probably got a pretty long leash. But Snyder Brunel, I think, has been impressive so far. I really like his game. um He's a big, sturdy dude for for such a young kid.
00:28:56
Speaker
ah he is... ah He's got some adventure in him, which I like. He's got a little bit of an edge to his game, which I like. So I want to see more of the kid, for sure. I think i think he could be a really good player.
00:29:08
Speaker
And and i I feel like this needs to be the year that he kind of starts to become a regular. But I think just... saying, well, let's bench our guy that has been an all-star in this league who was one of the key components of a pretty good Minnesota United team for for several years and our biggest off-season acquisition. um he made a bad pass, so so let's put ah you know a kid in his place. I think that's maybe a little premature.
00:29:38
Speaker
Yeah, and I'll also note that Snyder, at least when he first came in for the first 20-odd minutes that he was on the field, was really playing more as a right winger. i was a little surprised that Ferreira was one of the first players off.
00:29:51
Speaker
i don't know yeah I don't know what to read into that. I did not think Ferreira was particularly good or bad in this game. But snyder Snyder did well in that spot. I think Snyder is a a versatile player. I think he is definitely more of a central player you know, essential two way type players, but he, you know, to his credit, he, he did well in that more advanced role.
00:30:16
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, if yeah I was definitely confused as well, because i thought that Jesus had some uninspiring moments, but I thought that he had some really nice moments of vision. And I thought that,
00:30:27
Speaker
you want some people that can unlock this defense because RSL is content to to sit pretty deep. But what um RSL really started struggling with defensively was um guys just kind of coming right at them. Like they weren't too bothered by...
00:30:42
Speaker
you know, silky attacking player, or clever through balls, but they were worried about guys running down their throats. And that was what was really causing them to start to scuttle a little bit.
00:30:53
Speaker
And Senator Brunel is a very willing runner. He's willing to run right at guys. He's willing to take guys on. um And he's going to go towards goal if that's his remit. and And so, you know, in hindsight, I think that maybe that was the thinking there.
00:31:06
Speaker
Um, and it's, it's hard to, I think, argue with the results to some degree, because I thought is immediately after the change, the Sounders looked, uh, quite a bit better in, in both phases of the game, frankly. And, um, you know, really until they ran out of steam, I thought that they looked pretty likely to score, but that's a really high level of intensity to keep playing at, uh, especially at elevation. I mean, I think if, if there was a place where the elevation was a factor, I think chasing the game for that long had to, had to be Had to be it. But um yeah, but I liked how Snyder looked on the right. Like I was kind of confused by that decision to play in there. I've only ever seen him play centrally as far as I'm aware. And I thought he looked pretty comfortable. He's not a conventional weaker by any stretch of the imagination, but he can certainly be effective there if the game say calls for it.
00:31:53
Speaker
And he certainly he has ah a nose for goal. Like he has a nose for popping up in dangerous spots. He you know he has good instincts. you know he's goingnna be He's going to be a good player. I have no doubt about that. He continuously impresses when he gets on the field.
00:32:09
Speaker
I think one of my other ongoing frustrations for this game is Paul Rothrock beat Philip Quentin probably 15 times off the dribble. It felt like, I mean, ah it did feel like he was beating him every single time he needed to. And it was all over the field.
00:32:28
Speaker
And what was frustrating is how little came of it. Like there was, you know, he drew some fouls, you know, he he drew a yellow card very early on. and And you kind of would have liked to have seen him just kind of go after him a little bit more.
00:32:42
Speaker
But as it was, he you know he he kind of had a quiet game, even though he was consistently beating his man and and creating some space for himself.
00:32:52
Speaker
But then there was just no... you know he was he ended up going four for eight, I guess, on dribbles. ah And yeah there was just no final ball, really, other than other than the assist that he had where he was offside.
00:33:06
Speaker
But I think I just want... I wanted to see Paul do a little bit more with, with sort of all the opportunities he gave himself, you know, reward yourself. You did the hard work, you beat your man. And then and he did, you know, he, he do a couple of good free kicks too.
00:33:24
Speaker
ah So it wasn't like it was all for nothing. It just felt like one of those things where you want to see more come out. If you're beating your man off the dribble that much, it feels like there should be more end product. Yeah, you you want to differentiate yourself from Georgie Manungu a little bit, I think. Right, yeah. Because if all you're going to be doing is beating your man and then there's not going to be too much final product after that, then Georgie is going to give you a much larger ah sample for something random to happen. Right. Yeah, I thought that ah I agreed with you. It was a little frustrating because...
00:33:59
Speaker
A lot of the mistakes that ah RSL was making earlier that I wish the Sounders had taken advantage of were the results of that really hard work from Paul Rothrock. And i think that he puts in a better ball in you know, a couple of those situations. And it's probably a much different game because I think if the Sounders score first, it's, I mean, most obvious thing in the world, right? But the Sounders score first, it's a much different game than the one we ended up seeing.
00:34:25
Speaker
And because they don't have to chase for, for you know, 60 minutes, they, they can get a little more comfortable and and set and play a little deeper. And yeah i think that that's the thing that differentiates the Paul Rothrock that we have and that we're, you know, happy to have. And the Paul Rothrock that I think everybody wants him to become is being a little more consistent and being able to, to finish the play.
00:34:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well ah now we go on to St. Louis. The blue or the blues. Oh, they're not the blues.
00:34:58
Speaker
They're St.
Looking Ahead: Sounders vs St. Louis
00:34:59
Speaker
Louis city. Uh, yeah, they are, they are looking maybe a little better than they were. Last year, ah the Sounders have done all right in this fixture in the past.
00:35:10
Speaker
They have only lost to St. Louis once. They lost last year 1-0 on sort of a kind of an ugly game. But this has not been you know it's not been the the the worst place for them.
00:35:22
Speaker
But so far, St. Louis is 0-1-1. They tied their first game. They lost this ah last they last on Sunday to San Diego.
00:35:35
Speaker
not a team that should strike fear into the Sounders, but you know, a team that is capable of of, you know, certainly giving the centers trouble, I think.
00:35:46
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I feel like this is a game you really have to feel pretty disappointed if you don't get a result here. Not necessarily a win, yeah, losing this game would feel very bad. Um, RSL, I think was a game people thought the Sounders would have a ah pretty good chance to win out of this, this run of road games.
00:36:08
Speaker
And I think they ended up being a little better than people expected. yeah I, like I said earlier, I was, I was legitimately impressed with them. I thought that they earned the win. They deserve the win in that game. Um,
00:36:20
Speaker
ah St. Louis, I don't think there's going to be any real surprises there. And the games are not going to get easier from here on out. They've got Vancouver after this one. They've got a ah San Jose team that looks like they, you know, might actually be pretty dang good. um And which is, you know,
00:36:41
Speaker
not shocking, but maybe a little bit surprising. um They've got a a Minnesota team who, who I think is going to be reasonably tough to play against on the road. So this is, I mean, this is their best chance to get three points yes out of the remaining road games for sure. So, and I, and I think it's going to be really disappointing if they come away with nothing.
00:37:00
Speaker
Yeah. All, all winnable games, but also yeah ah tougher matchups than this one is. Yeah. Yeah. yeah For all the reasons that you said, I mean, this is the game. This is the game. i think the Sounders really have to circle as their best opportunity to get three points out of this road trip.
00:37:20
Speaker
and And hopefully they can turn that into some moment momentum. Of course, they have the Whitecaps. They'll start Champions Cup a week from like next next week. So yeah that'll be between the that further complicates the San Jose game, I guess, as well, because they'll be coming off the the white caps game. And that's the sounds game is sandwiched between two CONCACAF games against the white caps.
00:37:46
Speaker
So yeah, this is, this is the game. The sounders need to be focused on as their best opportunity. ah Yeah, no question.
00:37:57
Speaker
Yeah. And you know, if you, if you get three points from this one and a couple more draws, I think it's not a great road trip, but it's not a disaster. if you don't get three points from this one, you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself to have to get three points from better teams. Yes. And that's, that's not a good situation to be in. So I would totally agree with that.
00:38:17
Speaker
ah You know, we're not, we're not in disaster. There's no and not going to be any disasters here, but this is, horse sign if they, if they want to make a run, this is the kind of game you have to figure out how to get points from.
Sounder at Heart Magazine Launch
00:38:28
Speaker
so and ideally win, ah if they, if they think they're going to contend in the West, they've got to, you know, you got to find some road wins and,
00:38:37
Speaker
this is This is one where it feels like you gotta you got to got'll be looking for it. Well, I think that's what we got today. We are going to do a second segment of the show.
00:38:49
Speaker
i talked to John Morrissey of USL Tactics. It was actually, we recorded it before the start of the Tacoma Defiance season, but we are... you know, getting around to publishing it now. It's, I think it's all still very relevant information. Hopefully you enjoy that.
00:39:05
Speaker
ah And in the meantime, ah we'll be, yeah, we'll take a break. We'll come right back with John Morris. have us all tactics and backheeled. You're listening to no. I get this.
00:39:20
Speaker
Senator Hart has been around in one form or another since 2009. In 2026, though, we make a pretty significant evolution when we go analog. Yes, that's right. In the year of our Lord, 2026, we are publishing a real life magazine. We're calling this thing four. as in Sounder at Heart 4.0, but we're stylizing it as i IV because we absolutely love Roman numeral. And if you want to refer to it as IV, that's cool too. The first issue has a comic book style cover that was hand drawn by local artist Kevin Newber. Features by Tim Foss, Susie Rance, and Charlie Bohm. A statistical deep dive by Kat Busch. A Q&A with Brian Schmetzer. A column by G. Willow Wilson. And photographs by Noah Reif, Max Aquino, Mike Russell, and Jane Gershowitz. I could not possibly be more proud of the work everyone put into making this, and I think you're going to absolutely love it. If you'd like to get your hands on one of these limited edition copies, we're currently selling them for $15 on our website. Get yours now. Nos Adietes admittedly is not exactly known for our spicy takes, but that doesn't mean we want our food to be mild.
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Speaker
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Speaker
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00:41:03
Speaker
Again, go to hacksandferments.com, use the code sounderatheart at checkout for a free hot sauce with your order. Hacks and Ferments is a proud sponsor of the Sounder at Heart podcast network.
USL to MLS: Player Movements and Opportunities
00:41:19
Speaker
Welcome back to another episode of Nos Adientes on the Sounder at Heart podcast network. We are trying something out new here. We are doing sort of a a dual thing with lobbing scorchers that includes video.
00:41:34
Speaker
And joining me on our first sort of dual thing here is John Morrissey of Backheeled. Welcome to the show. where're We're here to talk USL and sort of the convergence of USL and MLS and MLS Next Pro. And welcome to the show, John. I've um i've been a longtime reader. I'm thrilled to have you on.
00:41:54
Speaker
No, I mean, appreciated what you guys at Center at Heart have done for a long time. So happy to be here. Yeah, it's is it's kind of a funny thing. All of a sudden, the Sounders seem very interested in signing players from USL. I don't know how many USL players they have had at all, but all of a sudden they have signed, or the Tacoma Defiance have signed three players from USL this offseason.
00:42:21
Speaker
I'm probably going butcher some of these names, but Rafa Urege? Urege? We'll go with that. say Rafa Warregui, but like. Warregui? There we go. don't know much better. I like your pronunciation better. That was today. He's coming from Charlotte Independence in Sacramento Republic. He is what? A wingback? Is that what I understand? wingback, winger, a little flexibility. Yeah.
00:42:45
Speaker
Okay. And then Mark Bronick. I'm pretty sure I nailed the pronunciation of that one. You got it. And Shavi Naladi? Boom. You're getting better with these.
00:42:56
Speaker
Yeah. And so he comes from Monterey Bay FC, which is a USL championship team. So ah a rung above ah the other two, which came out of League One.
00:43:08
Speaker
ah Just generally speaking, do you and and then we we saw we've seen, i feel like more players going from USL to both MLS Next Pro and MLS this offseason. Does this feel like a pipeline that is finally starting to to open up?
00:43:23
Speaker
Yeah, and I hope that is the case. You think about particularly some of these prospect type of players that Tacoma has tried to go for this offseason. These are guys that want to be playing at the higher levels.
00:43:35
Speaker
You think about someone like a Bronick who comes on the scene as a teenager with Union Omaha last year. A little bit of a role player starter halfway between type, but I think he got six goals, a lead on the dribble, really good right foot.
00:43:48
Speaker
You could just look at him and see immediately he's above the level of USL League One. Well, then what is the potential for him? Could it be MLS? The best way for someone in that situation to probably push up the pyramid a little bit is get into NextPro, get directly into the MLS pipeline and see what you can do.
00:44:09
Speaker
And from the MLS side, increasingly, I think teams, if you're looking for a starting level player, or looking for a star, you might look overseas, you're spending a lot of money to try to get those players in.
00:44:22
Speaker
I mean, the most expensive transfers you've ever seen out of League One, $50,000, $75,000. The relative level of cost to take a flyer on a couple guys from the USL, and that's if you're paying a transfer fee Some of these guys are coming for free.
00:44:39
Speaker
It really is an economical solution on that side of things. Right, and especially for an MLS Next Pro team ah to be doing that. And I thought it was interesting, you know, both in the cases of Nuladi and Bronick, the teams they left from made a particular note of saying a transfer. There was some amount of money exchanged. I think in Bronick's case,
00:45:01
Speaker
ah Union Omaha actually said that his ah exit clause or his ah release fee had been met. And I'm just like, what is the release fee for a League One, a League One level player?
00:45:14
Speaker
i mean, like you said, like $50,000 seems like that, that might be that might be like a high number. Yeah, i mean, the thing with someone Abranik also is that he's not exactly coming out of Nebraska, rising through the academy.
00:45:28
Speaker
He grew up in Brooklyn. He was in the Barca Residency Academy. This is an example of Omaha spotting this kid late in his teenage years, saying, we think we can give you the finishing touches.
00:45:40
Speaker
And then if you get any amount of money for him, that's a bonus. Sure. that That feels like what Omaha was trying to do all along. So the fact that he has an exit clause, he was probably the only player on the roster that had one of those. Right.
00:45:56
Speaker
And then Naladi, they said was a, if I'm pretty sure the language they used was a significant transfer fee. And i I remember I asked someone with the sounders is like, well, what does that mean? Like a couple hundred thousand dollars. And they sort of like laughed and they said, i mean, that would be a significant transfer fee. But it sounds like from talking to you, that probably is not the number. Like we're we're talking a much smaller number, most likely, right?
00:46:24
Speaker
Yeah, so like last week, for instance, there was a ah starting level goalkeeper in the championship that got sold for less than $10,000. That's what you can probably anchor your estimates off of.
00:46:35
Speaker
And that is different with someone like Xavi Nalati, who is young and has the upside. think he just turned 21. but yeah it's gonna be a meager amount of money for a guy that has significant professional experience against grown men which you can't always say about the average next pro prospect Absolutely not. i mean, the sounder or the Defiance just signed a whole bunch. of they they In the last three days, they have signed, I believe, nine players. And at least four of those players were sort of like not like we're out of college, but sometimes even a year removed from college who clearly or were just sort you know, that's sort of like the. the Yeah.
00:47:18
Speaker
the amount of quality on a MLS next pro roster ranges a lot, I guess is what I'm saying. It's like, you have guys that are really there just to sort of like fill out numbers for training. And then you have, you know, potential stars, like, you know, like a Georgie Manungu was playing in MLS next pro as recently as last year. And now, you know, he's being mentioned as potentially like a $3 million dollars transfer.
00:47:40
Speaker
Yeah, and I mean, that is why you can say like, okay, cool, we're going to fill out many of these roster spots with the post-college kids, the guys who we just need for numbers. If you've got the budget to say, sweet, we're going to drop 50,000 total on three players coming from the USL, maybe there's potential there. And even if it's not becoming the $3 million dollar man, maybe there can be first scheme minutes down the line. Right.
00:48:05
Speaker
worth the gamble every time. And it it is something like you kind of mentioned up top that I think other organizations, if they aren't wise to that now are swiftly going to start following the same pathway.
Player Profiles: Rising Stars in Tacoma Defiance
00:48:18
Speaker
You would think so. ah So of these three players, i I get the impression from you that Bronick is, is the most is like the highest level. Like his ceiling is the highest.
00:48:30
Speaker
That's exactly the phrase I was going to use and kind of mentioned it, but it was kind of working off the left wing last season, inverted. So he's primarily right footed, very good beating defenders one on one.
00:48:43
Speaker
Kind of a triple threat in that you think he can threat a teammate in in a through ball. He's a decent shooter. has the dribbling skill. There's a ah real intensity in the press just by nature of what Omaha was asking him to do.
00:48:55
Speaker
So he's going to be responsible defensively from day one. He's the kind of prospect where it's just hard to poke a hole in his game. And I think that's why scouts and certainly the people around the Sounders organization came away impressed with him.
00:49:08
Speaker
and And there is and one of the other things like I would imagine is helping League One and and MLS Next Pro to a degree is that there are now advanced a analytics that are available for these players, that it's not just some grainy tape that they're passing around. It's like, oh no, we actually have data on these guys that says that gives us all kinds of different information. And if I remember correctly, you shared some information about several of these players that suggested there there might be something here.
00:49:38
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you look at Bronick, 97th percentile XG per 90 minutes, 94th percentile for final third regains. So that's evidence of the pressing skill. He, as a teenager, did that in the league against grown men. And I keep emphasizing that, but it shows like he was above the level that you would expect in the ways that advanced stats backed up and the eye test backed up.
00:50:02
Speaker
and then ah And then the other the position that no we didn't get into this, Naladia sounds like they they sort of envisioned him as an eight. Does that sound sound accurate? Yeah, he's struggled to settle down into a real consistent role in the USL. like he's I think he's a San Diego guy, and he came through with San Diego Royal when they were still around. That sounds right. He kind of tended to just be late game, super sub.
00:50:26
Speaker
Let's see what energy you can give us off the bench. And that just projected him forward a little bit. Monterey tried to use him as an eight and he had some moments of progressivity. He has that kind of buzziness where he just finds touches, keeps the ball moving.
00:50:41
Speaker
i think there is a little bit of room to grow technically for him, but he's got that something something that you can't really teach and you just see it like he knows how to move the ball forward in pretty useful ways consistently.
00:50:56
Speaker
And so one of the other players that come out of USL this year is Calera. Is that how you say the... Yeah, Taylor Calera, yeah. Yeah, yeah he now he... his numbers really do jump off the page. He scored a ton of goals, but it wasn't just the goals. I mean, he... You know, his his receiving numbers are very impressive. His XG numbers were very impressive. And he's someone that, Sporting Kansas City, I believe, signed, i i want to say, for $250,000 or something like that. ah yeah that's a That seems to be like an even bigger sign that MLS is starting to take ah the achievements of USL championship players pretty seriously.
00:51:38
Speaker
Yeah, and for the longest time, that really hasn't been the case. If you saw someone go up, it would be they were a free agent in the USL. They probably had to wait until kind of deep in the offseason for an MLS team to say, oh we need some depth and we're going call on a USL player.
00:51:55
Speaker
And Cal Herod, to be fair, just moved in February to a team that kind of delayed their roster build. But still, the fact that he goes in spends one year with FC Tulsa, which hasn't been a traditional springboard for players to either Europe or MLS, but doing what he did, i think he led the league in aerial duel attempts as well. So like he's putting his body off the line all the time.
00:52:16
Speaker
it it is what you want to see for this pipeline going forward. And do you feel like the USL championship right now sees itself in that, like in that pipeline or do you, so is there some, is it more of a, we want to be providing, you know, value to fans and, and like the, the development part is separate.
USL's Strategy: Development and Revenue
00:52:39
Speaker
I just did a piece for Backfield where I talked to the folks at Orange County and at the Charleston Battery because they are really at the the forefront of that selling club mentality. And I think Orange County has become a story because of it. Every single season, they've got a us Youth National Team prospect that they're either moving- It's sort of their brand now.
00:52:59
Speaker
Absolutely. And they financially benefit from that because they just have a revenue stream that no one else has. It's also become a way to get more attention on their senior players as well.
00:53:10
Speaker
You think about Milan Oloski, who has gone to Europe, now come back to MLS to be a starter at that level. They sold midfielder over to England last regular season. In Charleston, Nick Markanik goes overseas. Now he's back with the Houston Dynamo.
00:53:25
Speaker
there are clubs that increasingly, while still trying to do what you expect with the fan relations and all that, are becoming wise to the ability to be a selling club within this spot in the ecosystem.
00:53:40
Speaker
And... You know, you had another piece today in Backheel that looked at sort of another angle on the USL business. And I don't know, it it certainly wasn't a secret that the USL operated sort of everything and that the teams were essentially paying a license to play in the USL system.
00:54:01
Speaker
But I thought you did a really good job of illustrating exactly how that works and how you know teams play, you know already are paying $25 million dollars apparently to get into the USL championship. And that's money that just kind of goes into the USL coffers. And unlike and MLS where yeah you have a you're where you're buying into like a oneirtieth ah equity stake of the league, there is no equity stake being given to the the individual teams in USL. And the USL sort of operates things and and you know they run the broadcasts and they run the websites and they do some of the other stuff like that. But ultimately, the teams sink or swim entirely based on what they're doing on the local market.
00:54:45
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And you're kind of right to frame it around this idea of it's 25 million and then the teams are on their own to a large extent. There is no revenue sharing. And I think that is something that people take as a given when they think about professional sports in this country.
00:55:02
Speaker
Like if your league has $100 million dollars coming from a network, that will get divided amongst the teams. And that just isn't true of the USL. And that applies to expansion fees, sponsorships.
00:55:13
Speaker
It really just stays with a privately owned company, USL headquarters in Tampa Bay. So when you project that out, you see South Georgia Tormenta folding over the weekend in USL League One.
00:55:26
Speaker
That's an organization that paid their fees and then couldn't figure it out and they're going away. You saw Texoma FC in League One last year. That was a team based in the 418th biggest city in America.
00:55:40
Speaker
That's great that you want to put soccer in Sherman, Texas, but if you're paying $10 to $15 million dollars to get into League One, that isn't a viable project financially, and they fade away after one single season.
00:55:53
Speaker
So if you're the USL, you have this incentive. Let's get the one-time check. Let's bolster what we've got going at HQ. Does there need to be a safety net for the rest of these teams? Yes. Is the USL actually providing it? I think that's increasingly debatable.
00:56:11
Speaker
yeah And so, what you know, I as someone who comes from the ah so the Bay Area, I also worked in Monterey for a while. I remember being sort of blown away that Monterey was going to have a US old championship team. This does not strike me like Monterey is a great town.
00:56:30
Speaker
But it is it's a small town. I mean, it's something like 28,000 people live in in Monterey. Now, it's a tourist hub a little bit, and it's and it's part of a ah larger community.
00:56:43
Speaker
But I was struck by... the USL going to a relatively small town like that. And it is a, you know, it's, it's somewhat isolated in that, you know, you're an hour and a half away from San Jose, which is certainly the the big city relative to there.
00:57:02
Speaker
um And I'm just curious, does that seem like, Do you feel like when USL Premier launches that this is going to exasperate sort some of these gaps? Because, you know, I love the idea of there being big markets and small markets in a in any league like this.
00:57:22
Speaker
But, you know, we're talking about New York playing in the same league as a Monterey. Like, these are big big gaps.
00:57:33
Speaker
You're absolutely right to make that point. If you think about the spending in the USL right now, yes, there are gulfs, but how different is $1.5 million dollars in salary versus $3 million? Right. Really, not that much.
00:57:48
Speaker
Right. Talking about a first division club, let's say it's Louisville or Sacramento in a ah bigger city, relatively, with a nice downtown stadium that is creating its own revenue streams.
00:58:01
Speaker
And then you've got Monterey Bay FC in a tiny community owned by literally a used car salesman. They just aren't going to be able to keep up with that high power thing.
00:58:12
Speaker
You throw in the pro rail aspect of it and suddenly you've got part of the USL ecosystem that is taking off in a lot of ways. Is the let rest of it going to get left behind?
The Future of US Soccer: Expansion and Challenges
00:58:23
Speaker
Yes. Meanwhile, USL headquarters is going to get $150, $200 million dollars in new expansion fees. That's what they are intending to do with USL Premier.
00:58:34
Speaker
Everything that we've seen cyclically just repeats itself at a greater magnitude. And so I know that there's not a lot of details out there about how any of this is going to work, but do you have any sense at all how...
00:58:50
Speaker
eaten like i love i I like every American soccer fan love the idea of promotion and relegation. There's a purity to it. I don't think I need to sell anyone on the idea of it.
00:59:03
Speaker
But I i do, when you when you start seeing it play out, In reality, there does seem to be a potential unsettling factor that will happen because one of the great things that I have seen, even in the time since I've been watching, ah paying really close attention to American soccer, is that when I first started watching American soccer,
00:59:25
Speaker
The first division was, you know, and MLS was relatively stable, but the the lower divisions were chaotic. And over the last 10 years or so, there's been a real settling in the in this in the lower divisions where there you know teams fold and teams come in every year, but there's no existential crisis for the most part for the for the existence of the of lower leagues in in in America. And you have more, there are more teams, more professional teams in the United States now than there has ever been. And it seems very hard to imagine even going serious backsliding. But you can also see a world where all of a sudden you have this new USL premiere and i there has to be some concern, maybe not of the USL, but of American soccer fans that there could be this, you know,
01:00:19
Speaker
what has become a relatively stable foundation could become destabilized. Yeah. I mean, you think about the phrase a race to the bottom, kind of the opposite where these clubs are going to be encouraged by this possibility of getting to USL premier when they aren't financially stable in the first place.
01:00:38
Speaker
Where does that leave you economically? I was actually talking to a League One owner today relative to the Trementa situation. And he was basically saying, you have to invest and hope that you're going to make money down the line. You need to have like full ticketing infrastructure in your front office. You need to invest in the stadium experience to keep people coming back.
01:01:01
Speaker
That's well and good. But when do you actually reap the reward? i think for a lot of these organizations, the idea has been cool, we're going to wait it out until we get Premiere, until we get Pro-Rel.
01:01:13
Speaker
Then there's going to be this trickle-down effect where people care about the USL. They're engaged by the narrative of promotion and relegation. Whether that happens or not, I think is highly debatable.
01:01:24
Speaker
The smart organizations aren't banking on it and they are building stadiums with their own private money, with real estate around it that they can develop and turn into a separate revenue stream. But I think it's going to be a rude awakening in a lot of ways, which could have deleterious effects like you're kind of getting at.
01:01:42
Speaker
Yeah, it's I mean, I love the idea of a Eugene, you know, working its way up to USL Premier. But there's also this concern of of what, you know, is that, of what that actually looks like in reality. I mean, we have another situation here and in Seattle where we have Everett ah is is potentially getting into the USL market. I don't imagine, I'm i'm guessing you don't,
01:02:08
Speaker
get too deeply involved in any of any one expansion market in part because there are so many potential expansion markets in USL that you drive yourself crazy if you were trying to follow all of them.
01:02:21
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. I mean, it seems like every other week the USL is engaging in talks with another city or something to that effect. And no offense to the good people of Everett, but I don't know the ins and outs. Yeah, no, I don't blame. I can't find out much stuff and I'm on the ground here. So I can only imagine what it's like for you.
01:02:38
Speaker
ah I am curious. what one other thing. What do you imagine? How do you imagine USL2 sort of fitting into the broader pyramid? Because it's not technically connected to the broader pyramid, but there does seem to be in the in.
01:02:54
Speaker
And the people I've talked to at USL2, there seems to be this sort of, un maybe not literally articulated, but there's this idea that it's like there's sort of a proving ground for viability so that they might potentially go professional.
01:03:10
Speaker
And I'm wondering if if you really think that's that's a realistic thing or if the USL2 will probably be even more separate once the once this pyramid gets formalized.
01:03:25
Speaker
I think in some cases, it definitely can be a proving ground. And this year is going to be a great example where League One is adding the Sarasota Paradise, Fort Wayne FC, Corpus Christi organizations that got their feet wet in League Two, kind of proved the viability and now are trying to get the leap.
01:03:42
Speaker
And Fort Wayne especially, like they figured out, we think this can be feasible. They use that launching pad to get investment in line. They're opening a 9,000 seat stadium in accordance with the jump up.
01:03:54
Speaker
That to me is what every team trying to move from League Two to League One should be. But I think League Two is a lot of things to a lot of different people. In some cases, it really is small potatoes and you're just trying to do something fun for the soccer community in a given city.
01:04:11
Speaker
In some cases, there's maybe a social cause. I think something like Vermont g Green and kind of blends a lot of these worlds. And of course, there is the component of owners that want to see what can we do with the USL? Let's start this relationship, then maybe we go pro down the line.
01:04:26
Speaker
But in the pro rel context, if it is this kind of tide that raises all ships, you have to imagine the gap between this semi professional summer only lead to and lead one is only going to grow larger and larger over the years.
01:04:43
Speaker
But I guess from the USL perspective, they don't see any ah like the US from the USL league office perspective. USL two must just be, you know, a pure ah numbers play where you can. I mean, you have literally hundreds of teams in USL to playing in these regional leagues. And then you it's, and it's, it is kind of amazing. Like Ballard FC seems to be doing something very similar to the Vermont where they have, they've created a real community around this, this neighborhood team within Seattle.
01:05:16
Speaker
And, and it's funny whenever I talk to them, they seem very clear eyed about the challenges of potentially going pro and are kind of like, look, we have a good thing going here. I don't know why we need to,
01:05:28
Speaker
go pro other than just, it wouldn't, it be fun to to try it. But like from a business perspective, they go, you know, it's kind of fun and being a, you know, like they, they have a really good, they they've put together some good teams, but in a lot of ways they are sort of like ah a fashion brand, you know, almost like they, they put out these cool jerseys.
01:05:48
Speaker
People get really excited. They go out to games. They have a good time for the summer. And then they, and then they go, and then they go away and they come back next summer. Yeah, and that's the clarity of vision that I wish every team in League Two had, like just knowing where you want to be and how large you want to be. Because there have been bad examples of teams trying to take the the leap up the pyramid and then failing because of it.
01:06:11
Speaker
I think for now, the USL definitely sees League 2 as a proving ground first and foremost. Long, long term, the goal is to get League 1 up to 80 teams in a ah kind of four-region format.
01:06:24
Speaker
And a heck of a lot of those are probably going to be League 2 teams that are just deciding to make the jump. Long, long term, even beyond that, I don't know what League 2 becomes. We'll probably be all be dead by the time that happens if we ever get to 80. But it's ah it's wild to think about.
01:06:40
Speaker
It is wild to think about. I mean, it's it is kind of the scale of what needs to happen for the the USL pyramid to really work out is pretty stark. You know, right now, what are their 50-ish professional teams in the USL ah in in the usl pyramid?
01:07:01
Speaker
And to get really built out, they would have to probably be at 130 something, right? Yeah, essentially, which... yeah essentially which And it's hard to separate what is bluster for a press release and trying to drum up excitement versus the actual game plan.
01:07:18
Speaker
But I think there is something earnest about the USL wanting to add 40 to 80 more organizations. right And the amount of work and investment that's going to take is nothing to scoff at.
01:07:30
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's I don't know It's a fascinating thing to be watching right now. And of course, I think it was just we just learned that NISA got their their their classification pulled, essentially. Right.
01:07:44
Speaker
Yes. And I i think the NASL finally got decertified. Yes, you're right. all d The NASL did finally get decertified, too. I mean, the USL, to their credit, the USL has come out of this looking you know in ah in a better place. you know um And I know that there was a lot of consternation over when MLS 2 went. And I actually appreciated your story, mentioned this, about how ah the and MLS putting their reserve teams in the USL really was a stabilizing force. And...
01:08:15
Speaker
And I know that there was a time when, you know, where clearly USL had outgrown that part of their model. And I think going their separate ways has probably been good. But if you're looking into your crystal ball, do you think MLS Next Pro and USL are destined to sort of face off? Or do you think they can continue sort of on these parallel paths where they just, you know, they like the MLS Next Pro does not seem to me to be a a It seems much more purely developmental and much less consumer focused, whereas USL is a much more consumer focused and less
01:08:51
Speaker
ah you know um less part of the pipeline, the developmental pipeline. Yeah, I broadly think that they aren't going to be in major competition. And will there be expansion cities and markets that they bicker over?
01:09:06
Speaker
Of course, and particularly if NextPro continues to add more independent organizations. I think Baltimore is an interesting case where DC United is going to be putting a team there.
01:09:18
Speaker
That felt like one of the real gems left of major cities that don't have a pro soccer team. But how many more Baltimores are there? Probably not many. So is it is it something that could stand in the way of future League One markets?
01:09:33
Speaker
that get picked off by the stray independent Nexpro organizations? Maybe. Could Nexpro really start to be a muscular presence in the the youth world that kind of steps on the US toes there?
01:09:45
Speaker
That feels like more of a potent threat, but maybe not something that's going to come to blows in any real way. i and maybe I'm too rose tinted with this, but I think that they can be pretty symbiotic with one another.
01:09:58
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I've always been pretty skeptical that MLS Next Pro, at least in the short term, looks at lee as the USL as that they look at them like they they just don't really ah they're they're doing a different thing.
01:10:13
Speaker
Like there are there, I know there are examples of markets where they are kind of going head to head and there is some, there's some real sense of conflict, but for the most part, I don't get the sense that they're in that sort of conflict, but i don't know. I, maybe those that could change. I suppose at some point and MLS would like and MLS next pro to be more commercially viable than it currently is.
Commercial Viability and Broadcast Deals
01:10:36
Speaker
ah You know,
01:10:38
Speaker
they just, we just saw that they, they signed a, a broadcast deal with one football. So the games are going to be more reliably available in one place than they, than they have been in recent years. But i don't know. I'm, I'm fascinated by the whole sort of lower division scene.
01:10:53
Speaker
John, you do as well of a job, if not the, but you're doing probably the best job of anyone really, uh, covering this. I love reading you. i I make a point of reading almost everything you put out on backfield. So, I just want to say thanks for coming on. And I was, I oftentimes use this space as an excuse to meet interesting people. And that was ah just putting cards on the table. That was the main reason I wanted to do this. And you delivered by being interesting. So thank you for coming on.
01:11:18
Speaker
No, an absolute delight. I will say like my grandparents used to live in Seattle. And when I kind of dip my toes into mls as a ah guy getting into soccer was religiously reading the site.
01:11:29
Speaker
You guys have done tremendous work. Seriously, you guys have done tremendous work for years. So yeah, happy to be here. Oh, awesome. Well, I'm, I am really, really happy to hear that. Uh, John, you can follow John on it's us all tactics on blue sky, right?
01:11:45
Speaker
Yes, that's right. All right, great. Well, thank you for doing this. And, uh, you're listening to no Saudi at as part of the sounder at heart podcast network. And we'll be back in a bit.
01:12:05
Speaker
Well, thank you to John Morrissey for giving us his time like that. it was obviously he's someone i've I've wanted to have on the show for a long time. I love reading his stuff.
01:12:15
Speaker
ah But yeah, I guess before we get out of here, I will just send out a note. We still have ah copies of for the Sounder Heart magazine. If you ordered yours and you have not yet received it, we're at the point now where something may have happened. So I would urge you to get in touch with me. Just send me an email support at sounderatheart.com and we will get you all squared away. I've sent out a few replacements.
01:12:43
Speaker
I'm happy to do it. It's not, you know, ah I apologize if you, especially we're one of the early order people and you didn't get one. i feel like,
01:12:54
Speaker
you know I feel bad about it, ah but that's the USPS for you. We sent out 1200 pieces of mail through a bulk order, ah handful of them.
01:13:04
Speaker
Probably we're never going to get there. That's just sort of the way these things go. The loss rate on USPS is not what it used to be, unfortunately. But ah yeah, if you have not received your magazine yet, please get in touch. If you want to get one, though, they're still available. They're $15.
01:13:23
Speaker
We're going to be working on maybe getting them into some stores. We might even be able to sell them at Sounders Games. Fingers crossed on that one. We'll see. But yeah, thanks to everyone who has bought one.
01:13:36
Speaker
Thanks to everyone who has supported Sounder at Heart. Thank you to our sponsors, Full Pool Wines. and I guess that's what I'll sign off with. I am Jeremiah Shan saying farewell for Aaron Campo and Lickett. This is No Study at This.
01:13:54
Speaker
Remember, you'll never get alone.
01:14:25
Speaker
Let's go at Sounders.