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Her Media Diary Episode 13: "Draw the Line" with Moyo Thomas
17 Plays1 year ago
Moyo Thomas is a news reporter and strategic communications specialist. Describing herself as a humanist and a womanist she is a sexual and gender-based violence advocate fighting for women's rights, security and safety.
In this episode, Moyo Thomas discusses the representation and presentation of sexual harassment and gender-based violence in Nigerian media and the cultural dimensions of gender equality.
Her call to journalists and media organisations is to be proactive in challenging male dominance in media leadership and more willingness to stop sexual harassment in the workplace. You don’t want to miss this episode
Subscribe to Her Media Diary now on your favourite podcasting platform https://linktr.ee/hermediadiary
Learn about African Women in Media https://africanwomeninmedia.com
List of organisations that support survivors
Masimanyane Women’s Rights International: https://www.masimanyane.org/
Gender Violence Recovery Centre (GVRC): https://gvrc.or.ke/
The Gender-based Violence Command Centre (GBVCC): https://gbv.org.za/about-us/
FORWARDUK: https://www.forwarduk.org.uk/i-need-help/
Woman’s Aid: https://www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/
Women Empowerment and Legal Aid (WELA): https://welaonline.org/
MUSASA: https://www.musasa.co.zw/
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Her Media Diary'
00:00:00
Speaker
If you don't draw the line here, abuse could start, no matter the form of abuse. If a lot of women don't understand this point or this aspect of them, it might just become a cycle for them, their children and the people around them.
00:00:18
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of Her Media Diary, a podcast series that captures the lived experiences of African women working in media industries. I am Dr.
Meet Dr. Yamasi and Moyo Thomas
00:00:28
Speaker
Yamasi Akimbo-Bola, and in this episode, I'm joined by Moyo Thomas, a broadcast journalist for TVC News Nigeria, and also a strategic communications specialist. Describing herself as a womanist, Moyo is a sexual and gender-based violence advocate,
00:00:45
Speaker
fighting for women's rights, security and safety. In this episode, Muyo and I discuss the representation and presentation of sexual harassment and gender-based violence in Nigeria.
Challenges in Media: Sexual Harassment
00:00:57
Speaker
Now, to give some context, in 2020, African Women in Media and Foyo Media Institute conducted research that looked at barriers faced by African women working in media, one of the most prominent barriers for sexual harassment. And throughout this series, we'll begin conversation with African women working in a range of media industries to discuss the various issues that emerged from the research.
00:01:19
Speaker
By inviting these voices into conversation, we hope to provide solutions to break down barriers faced by African women in media. Before we start though, a quick disclaimer to our listeners. Sexual harassment and gender-based violence is a sensitive topic and one that can be distressing and triggering. In the show notes, we have included links to helplines, support groups and organizations that specialize in supporting survivors of sexual harassment and violence.
00:01:46
Speaker
So Moyo Thomas, my pleasure is to finally get to interview. So I just want to say for our listeners that this is our third attempt, I think it is, isn't it? It's great to have you here. So tell us about you, Moyo. I'm really interested in knowing about you. I don't know much about you actually.
00:02:04
Speaker
That's an interesting thing about this podcast is that you do a lot of, when you're researching speakers, especially when they're African women, we tend not to find too much about them beyond the professional journey. So I always start off with the question of tell us about you, like way back,
Moyo's Background and Upbringing
00:02:19
Speaker
Moyo. Way back. Okay. Let me start from when I was born.
00:02:23
Speaker
I think I can remember. And I was born in the Loring, Quora State, and then I started my education there, memory secondary university. And I never went out of the Loring until I was around 19 years old, as in I was born in the Quora State until I was around 19 years old. Wow. That was my first journey out of the Loring, and that was to Coogie State and then to Abuja.
00:02:46
Speaker
So primary school in Loring was in Loring. I started with Trinity Primary School, Trinity Northern Primary then finished up at Abdulaziz Northern Primary School in Loring. Finished in 1919, started my secondary school and I finished my secondary school in 1996, Sanders College in Loring and then I
00:03:07
Speaker
I'm going to pause you there because it's really interesting. Every time I asked that question, people was going to that, that CV kind of layout of things. And, you know, it's great, you know, I'd love to hear all of that, but I want to hear the things that shaped you. So what was it like being in Elorine for 19 years of your life before you kind of stepped out of that world? How did that environment shape who you are?
00:03:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think I was too confined being in a lorry because I remember growing up, there was this social group, a Christian group I belong to, a teenager's outreach ministry. And then our coordinator was from Imuste and he married a lady from Eduste and they speak English in their home. And I'm like, why are you not speaking your languages? Why are you speaking English? And they're like, we don't understand ourselves. And I'm like, where would you not understand yourselves? My perspective then was limited to Yoruba,
00:03:56
Speaker
So if you are from anywhere from middle belt to the east, you should be Igbo and you should speak Igbo. And then if you're from any other part, you should speak Yoruba. So that was the kind of mind I had. My mind was extremely limited. Ilaree is a great place to grow up in. I always say that.
00:04:15
Speaker
We have good education, we have this peace, there's harmony. Hilarity is a place that there's really as much as everybody know Hilarity to be a Muslim place. But then we were free as Christians and we mingle, we interrelate. Salah, we all come out to do Salah. Christmas, we all come out to do Christmas. So I didn't have a religious bias growing up.
00:04:37
Speaker
My only bias growing up was on ethnicity and that because I just believed if you're not Igbo, then you're Yoruba. If you're not, either of the two must be Hausa. So that, I think, is a confinement I had growing up in a lorry. It made me understand the unity of Nigeria better than our children growing up now that understands people based on their state more than we do. We understand people based on these three ethnic religions, not states. Unlike it is now, like what we have now.
00:05:06
Speaker
So I think growing up wasn't that bad in the law, I know. A couple of things you said, because the issue of language and the language you speak is something that is coming up for me.
Cultural Identity and Language Impact
00:05:16
Speaker
So I live in the UK. I've got three girls and, you know, we speak English. My husband is born in the UK. Nigerian was bred and born in the UK. Uruguay is very limited.
00:05:26
Speaker
recently I've had this kind of sense of my kids can't speak your about very well, like they know a few words and I'm thinking well yeah Missy if you don't teach them how they're going to teach their kids like the language get lost and I think language and culture is so interrelated and it's just something for me that has been nagging at me that I'm really trying my best now to take really seriously you know.
00:05:48
Speaker
Why i think is the reality of the world we live in i speak your about very well because in lauren we speak we spoke your about all through but then i have a dollar that i cannot speak i understand it very well but i can't speak this actually came across to me a few days ago i was at my friend's place her children's godmother
00:06:06
Speaker
And her daughter was telling me that, I'm so not happy that I don't understand Yoruba. But I was like, oh, you understand everything? He said, yes, I understand, but I really want to speak. I'm not happy that I can't speak. Please, can you teach me Yoruba? And I said, okay, let's start conversing in Yoruba. That's the only way you can learn. Converse.
00:06:22
Speaker
And then I just understood with her, we live in Abuja. She's closed in Abuja. Abuja is like not a one language place. So the common language speak is just English. And then we have this attitude in Nigeria now that we don't speak our local languages anymore to our children growing up. You are in the UK, so I can really understand your own situation. But then for those of us in Nigeria, we
00:06:44
Speaker
also do not speak our local languages to our children. So it's one of those things. And then last week was my son's opening day in school and I had to meet with some of the teachers. One of the teachers I met with was a Yoruba language teacher. And the reason why I specifically went to her was I wanted her to be quite understanding with my son. My husband is from Delta State, even though his mom is a Jabu and he speaks Yoruba very well.
00:07:06
Speaker
But then it's just me and him that speaks Yoruba. As much as he speaks Yoruba, his Yoruba is also limited. Even though he doesn't speak his father's language, he rather speaks his mother's language, but that is also very limited. So because we speak English in the house and then I am more of a Yoruba person, so I speak a lot of Yoruba. I speak Yoruba to him, but then my son does not have that opportunity. So I had to go to the Yoruba chapter.
00:07:27
Speaker
Please be lenient
00:07:48
Speaker
not speaking the Yoruba thing. It's becoming a global phenomenon, even though the body in Nigeria is our experience. To address it maybe something more wider, because there's a variety of conflicts in the country that are very much kind of that ethnoliguistic base around culture or language, around state ownership and those kind of things.
00:08:08
Speaker
And I think, you know, you're saying about how, where you understood our environment is very different from the younger generation. So let's move on to that around conflict and gender-based violence and those kinds of things. And in doing this, how prominent do you feel the culture, role of culture and language and all these things have been in the violence, but also our sense of gender-based violence as well?
Advocacy for Gender Violence
00:08:34
Speaker
I do a lot of stories on gender issues. I call myself an advocate against gender violence. And this is also because I've seen a lot of situations where people are subjected to a diminished situation that I just feel it shouldn't happen. And because
00:08:50
Speaker
is sometimes cultural based, but I see it more as an orientation thing, more than culture. If you were raised by ex strong women, there's a little likelihood that you'll be subjected to gender violence. But if you were raised to believe that there's a certain role or certain pattern for a woman to behave or to act, then there is a higher likelihood that you may be subjected to gender violence.
00:09:17
Speaker
Sometimes when we say gender violence, a lot of people limit it to physical violence. That is just the beating. But then it goes way beyond that. It goes way beyond just a man beating or assaulting you. For me, the emotional part is way deeper because more women go through emotional abuse and they don't identify it as an abuse. Unlike if it's like, he's beating me every day. That is the point that people would say, oh no, he shouldn't beat you. But when he is doing this other emotional abuse, people would like,
00:09:46
Speaker
as long as it's not between you. That is not violent. Financial abuse as well. Yes, emotional abuse, I think, is even deeper in financial abuse. I want to give an example. I moved into a new apartment in 2019, and then we had this neighbour. She opened up. She said, we were just talking about her work. She's an artist. She draws. And then she was telling me that I wish I could do this. I wish I could do that. But my husband is saying no. And I had to ask her.
00:10:11
Speaker
Your husband is saying, you shouldn't do this. What is his reason? What are his exes? He was like, no, he's the one managing me. And I asked him, what does he know about your work? He said, no, he doesn't know anything about that work. He's not in the field at all. And he's managing you. How is he going to open opportunities for you when someone that doesn't understand your job is managing you? I believe if I need someone to manage me, it has to be someone that understands what I do. That is the only way I can get opportunity.
00:10:38
Speaker
And she was bitterly complaining that she has lost opportunities because of this. Because the Osman we insist, no, this has to be sold for $10 million. And then went the uprising for $5 million. And she knows that, no, this can't go. Don't worry. I know the kind of work that should be in that level of $10 million. The Osman we insist, no. So she was limited. And then the complaint, I felt where it was coming from.
00:10:59
Speaker
And I was telling her that, do you know what he's doing to you is wrong? He shouldn't have that much influence on you when it comes to your work, especially because it is not his field, it is your field. You should be able to make decisions for yourself. Yeah, I think this speaks to what you were saying earlier on about kind of our cultural conditioning of women and of men as well to believe that this is how it should be because
00:11:23
Speaker
you give that authority to somebody because you believe that's what you should do, right? And, you know, if the environment is enabling for that level of control, then it will continue to perpetuate. That's what you should do, yes. Now, I want to move us on to your work as journalists because you started working with TVC as a freelancer in 2018, then you're the foreign affairs correspondents, et cetera, and you've had some work in strategic
00:11:52
Speaker
communication as well. So thinking more around this idea of gender-based violence, various forms of, especially what you said about how it's represented.
Gender Balance in Media
00:12:00
Speaker
Tell us about your journey in the media, but also how you then got to this work around gender issues.
00:12:05
Speaker
My journey in the media started from when I was in university. I just knew I liked media, and when people tell you, I mean, you can talk, you can talk, you just go to television. You know, from that, I just knew I had that there. Why do people always say that when someone is talkative? Like, yeah, you can go on to me.
00:12:25
Speaker
It's just me in the media world. So I did my thesis in my university on media, women in the media, gender balance in the media. That was my thesis topic in my head. And then I visited a lot of media houses while I was gathering my information. Okay.
00:12:41
Speaker
And then that was when I realized that women don't actually get to the leadership position in the media. They get stopped at some point, maybe as TV presenters, while the men move on to become the DG, to become, you know, all those kinds of positions. So I was trying to see where the reasons for this limitation. And I also understood that gender roles played an important role. Women wouldn't, you know, they have to balance their homes, balance all those things at the end of the day, limits them, brings them down, unlike the men that
00:13:08
Speaker
their home is left for the women and they are just lying high. Why was that interesting for you? How did you arrive at that topic? What was the motivation behind it for you? Okay, I think let me say I came across that part chance by chance. I wanted to write something about the media too.
00:13:25
Speaker
So I wrote a number of topics for my supervisor and then he was like, no, I think this area, I was writing about children in the media, all those kinds of things, gender roles for children. And then he was like, no, look at women in leadership positions. But it was gender balance in the media. Like, look at how women, he defined that for me. Look at why are women not get into this position?
00:13:47
Speaker
are women equally in the same position as men in the media you know so he was the one that basically defined my thesis but then it was uh i i i was glad he did that for me at that point so that was how i came about finally i did tell you what area what some people were going into i studied sociology in the university
00:14:06
Speaker
So there are different aspects of sociology, sociology of the media, medical sociology, all those, but I wanted to be in the media aspect of sociology. So I already defined myself, already made myself to be in the media aspect. So I chose the media from that point. So then
00:14:21
Speaker
Then I left university and then wanted to serve at NTA, but it didn't work out. So I just did my NYC here in Abuja at the National Assembly. Immediately I left and I knew I wanted to be in the media. So I went to Bisya Latilo. He was running a show in Lagos then, so I worked with him. I was a reporter, I was a presenter, and all that while I was with Bisya Latilo. I was there for about a year, and then I moved on to another corporate sector, the oil and gas sector. But then, when media is in you, media is in you.
00:14:50
Speaker
that. I left that and then there was an independent producer that wanted, we met, we talked and she was like, oh, she's starting something new. She started a program both about insurance and about pension. So I worked there, I was presenting and producing the program for her for like seven years. Then when I left,
00:15:11
Speaker
I wanted to start something on my own, my own media firm. One of my first jobs was with UNFP. I got a link with UNFP. So I was doing a lot of media awareness for UNFP, and it was on different aspects of human issues, from reproductive health to all forms of gender issues for UNFP.
00:15:30
Speaker
So when I decided to come into the mainstream media and I got opportunity to freelance with TBC and then they also asked me what I would have done and I said I was already doing something for UNFP and we're like okay just go ahead with what you do, cover the UN. So I was not officially attached to cover the UN and then
00:15:50
Speaker
In 2019 UN started the spotlight initiative. So immediately the spotlight initiative started. I just had to like, I was doing a lot of stories around the initiative and all that. And that was where I now realized that the issue of women might be deeper than we think. Usually the number of women going through abuse of different types. And that basically was what brought me into doing a lot of gender stories that I did.
00:16:14
Speaker
So tell us more about how then your kind of work in the media has been shaped by issues around
Media as a Resource for Women
00:16:20
Speaker
gender. So you've talked about your journey to get in here, but then what did you do? Like as a woman in media, seeing the vast areas that the vast issues that come around women's rights, gender-based violence and all those things, have you used your work, your role in the media also to address this?
00:16:36
Speaker
by the stories I've done so far I would have made some impact that I personally may not even be able to measure and then the fact that people call me up when they know anybody that is going through any gender issue they call me this person is can you help and then I try to link them
00:16:53
Speaker
There's so many women that have tried to link to help or to resources that could help them, but then they tell me no at some point. Like there was one that I was experiencing, this is even like some few months ago, like the husband, she just delivered, she just had a baby, few days after the husband started beating her and all those kind of things. And then somebody drew my attention to that. And the first thing I wanted her to do was to leave.
00:17:16
Speaker
So I made an arrangement for her to be at a shelter. I then wanted the osmond picked up as in I said no he shouldn't do that to you he shouldn't do that to you and then go free but at the end of the day she didn't want that she just wanted to be safe she didn't want
00:17:31
Speaker
the husband picked up or arrested or anything so and you know you can't help people even the organizations the INGOS I called said until she's willing they won't be able to go ahead so those issues are there women as much as some of them want to be safe they also don't want you to do anything to the husband that is abusing and molesting them and you know those things so that is part me to also do another story from that angle
00:17:58
Speaker
Like as much as if you don't let a man face the consequence of his action, if he doesn't do it to you again, he might do it to somebody else. You might not go back to marry him, but you may marry somebody else. I still continue that. So I just feel raising awareness on people, on men facing the consequences. Not only men, but a lot of men don't speak up when they are going through abuses. They keep it to themselves. But women that speak up, they also want you to just end it at helping them.
00:18:23
Speaker
This lady was put in the shelter but at the end of the day she left the shelter and as I was trying to follow up on why she left and all that she said she was fine to rather live with a relative so she moved to a relative's place and that was the point I had to like okay as long as you're fine no problem. So I think it has really shaped it has helped and I hope to also still contribute more in my own little corner as in especially helping women individually beyond just storytelling.
00:18:48
Speaker
or writing about how to seek help. We do a lot of work on how to seek help, which is the most important thing. Beyond that, as an individual, I have resources that I can, okay, you do this, call this number, let this number help you. I do that on an individual basis.
00:19:04
Speaker
Yeah, so over the next three years, we're doing a project on reporting violence against women and girls, which is where we're training, I think, 90 nine-year-old women journalists across the country on improving their skills and reports, but also doing some research to look at how media organizations can improve their policies around how they report and present stories on gender-based violence.
00:19:26
Speaker
Well, two things. So first of all, what has been your experience as women journalists in media with this passion and for presenting them these stories? What has been your experience and your perspectives on how media in Nigeria reports gender-based violence and how you'd like to see it improved?
00:19:43
Speaker
Yes, I think we need to talk more about it. As much as their awareness, I realize that a lot of people still don't know how to seek help, which I think is the major thing. As much as they can speak up seeking help, knowing what to do or how to get out of the situation, we need to do more stories in this area, not only for women, even for men. But I know there are so many shelters for women now. I do not know if there is anyone for men, but I know there are so many shelters for women.
00:20:10
Speaker
The area that I would really be glad if we can shine more light or speak more about it in our programs, in our news reporting areas, is seeking help. Even if you are not planning to leave, identify when you are being abused and seek the necessary help at that point.
00:20:26
Speaker
because I realize a lot of women that go through the cycle, their daughters, if they are not careful, may likely not be able to identify abuse when they grow up too. As long as the mother, I don't know if this is appropriate to say, but I will say, I feel one of the reasons I understand abuse is because of the strength of my mother. She was a woman that could stand on her own and as much as there's respect between my mother and my father, they had a mutual respectful relationship.
00:20:56
Speaker
a strong woman. So that strength created an awareness in me that made me realize that, no, there's a place to draw the line. If you don't draw the line yet, abuse could start, no matter the form of abuse. If a lot of women don't understand this point or this aspect of them, it might just become a cycle for them, their children and the people around them.
00:21:17
Speaker
So I think we need to raise a lot of your awareness that being a strong woman does not mean you are disrespectful to your husband. It does not mean you're taking or you're changing traditions or you're changing norms. It just means that there should be something called mutual respect. As much as you respect your husband, your husband should respect you. So I would appreciate if we can, if the media can do a lot more on this.
00:21:38
Speaker
Yeah, I see a lot of these kind of things on social media and people term it feminism. I also wish we can stop giving it such a term because I think it limits the strength of the woman when you use the word feminism. I call myself a feminist, but I put a caveat, not the Nigerian type of feminist. I don't know what that means, but because I realize that feminism is not becoming bitterness somehow, but that is not what we are talking about here. It's just about being strong enough to handle your home, no matter the situation. My perspective.
00:22:08
Speaker
Yeah, I think a lot of what you're saying is really around representation because you speak there about the cultural norms, right?
Cultural Norms and Women's Rights Coexistence
00:22:14
Speaker
So, and there's always that when people talk about women's rights, people tend to evoke tradition and culture as if both can't exist in the same room and they can't, right? You know, there's cultural relativism where it's kind of like just, you know, it's about protecting our culture, but there's also human rights and protecting the rights of other people.
00:22:31
Speaker
And actually they can work together. And I think both in terms of like how we're presenting a woman that stands up against abuse, how we're changing the narrative on how she's represented. It's not about being rude. It's not about lording over anybody. It's about fighting for their rights. And that's absolutely okay. And I think you also touch on there about feminism and ideas about feminism. I'm a feminist, you know, I believe in gender equality and choice. For me, feminism is about choice.
00:22:58
Speaker
is that like what you were saying earlier on about the examples you give, people having a choice over how they navigate their lives. And to some extent, the way we're represented in media, well, not just in media, but in culture, takes away that autonomy for us to have a choice and a voice in our own narratives and stuff. Exactly.
00:23:15
Speaker
So can you tell me some of the things you've been doing around that, around kind of the representation or the things you like to see the media do about representation of a woman standing up for herself, you know, and how that needs to be changed, you know, not to be presented as this rude, uncultured woman?
00:23:33
Speaker
I think this is an area that I'm also guilty of. Even though I said I want to see the media do more, I'm also challenging myself as a media reporter to do more in this area. I've talked a lot about human rights too, but then a representation of human rights in this light, and we're talking about it, is a challenge I've accepted now. I would also do more stories in this area. I just talk about rights, women's rights, rights to livelihood, rights to financial, all these things. But then a typical representation of this
00:24:01
Speaker
I've accepted the challenge, I would do most during that evening. How have you found the media organisations you've worked with, how have you found that environment in terms of their internal policies and approaches in reporting gender-based violence? Okay, I think
00:24:16
Speaker
They only, I would be able to talk with you about TVC in this area, reporting gender-based violence. When I was with B2L at law, we just were parties, just segment of it. And then I worked insurance and claims, which weren't really focusing on gender in this area. But then my work in TVC, that's where I've really worked on gender-based. And how will I say I found it? I found it rewarding more because I feel there is need to empower women. And then creating awareness is one of the ways
00:24:46
Speaker
to empower them. But my question really speaks to the media environment and you don't have to use, I mean TVC is the only organisation you work to so that's fine so you might maybe speak more broadly about the media environment really in terms of how seriously they take reporting gender based violence and how you'd like to see media organisations
Media's Role in Gender-Based Stories
00:25:04
Speaker
take. I know we've kind of touched about it but in terms of just the environment being able to pitch those kind of stories and develop those kind of stories.
00:25:11
Speaker
Okay, for TBC, as long as you're doing anything on gender, you're free to do it. There's never been anyone shutting down or telling you, no, you've done too much of women's story. No, there's been, I've not had such experience and my colleagues known as ever complain of such experience.
00:25:26
Speaker
I'm even trying to see if I've had anybody in my professional life, maybe colleagues that have complained. I don't think so. I think we should just accept that we need to do more. It's not about the media environment, it's not about the media houses. From my knowledge so far of my interaction and relations, discussions with colleagues, I'm not sure it's really the media house that is limiting the gender stories.
00:25:53
Speaker
I think it's more on the journalist taking up, like, I want to do this media story. Like, anytime I look that I'm doing a media story, it gets approved immediately. It gets approved as in I get express approval to go ahead. Even if it's a special report I'm doing, if it's just normal feature, whatever kind of report, it gets approved. I think it's on us. Like, sometimes I would want to do some things and I'll feel like, oh, I'm tired. I don't have the energy.
00:26:19
Speaker
So I think it's a personal thing we need to really take up, which there can never be too much of women's stories or women awareness creation stories. We should do more. And yes, sexual harassment in media is another area that we're touching on in this podcast, in this particular series. So what are your observations of
00:26:39
Speaker
sexual harassment in the news industry, in the media industry in Nigeria. Well, before I came into mainstream media, I heard a lot of stories like newsroom, molestation and all those kinds of things. I see here about it in some media houses, like you hear this person is getting these juicy beats because she's sleeping with so, so, so person or she's close to so, so person. But in fairness, that doesn't have where I work. Both at the headquarters and here
00:27:06
Speaker
Yeah, but don't you find that problematic that there is this kind of, because that in itself is a form of sexual harassment, this assumption that this person got a role because the way of are supposed to an appreciation for their skill, right? Yes, it is. And I think that's the double edge of sexual harassment is number one, if it's so prominent in the news industry, then there's that assumption that well, the only way because you said at the beginning, when you did your research around women leadership, that there was not many women there. And so there's always that kind of narrative of
00:27:35
Speaker
She only got there because she slept her way around and I think that's really unfair. Sometimes you don't also create a balance in your mind. As much as it might be unfair to say that about a woman that she slept her way through, I don't usually join in saying the woman slept her way through to get to the top, but I also understand that there are some situations that some women intentionally get closer to bosses so they can have opportunities.
00:28:02
Speaker
And then the reason why this particular situation that I'm trying not to be explicit, this particular situation that I'm referring to, it's not the person in question is not even hiding it. It's like, if he pay you, go do your own. I don't know if you get the picture. It's still interesting that that culture is allowed to perpetuate where women do have to feel that there is the way to get to this juicy beat, as you put it, right?
00:28:26
Speaker
Yes, that's true. Why it is actually more painful is because there are so many women paying with sweat, paying with hard work, and they're not recognised. But you that you are trying to go the easy way, you're taking the shine off and the recognition off these other women that are paying the price to get to the top. But what about the boss who's making that happen to? Like, you know, forgetting the woman that's participating in it, but the boss that is making that a condition of work as well, shouldn't there be a conversation about him, right? And the environment that allows for that
00:28:56
Speaker
You know, I talked earlier about women, we are enablers somehow. When we enable, we might not even understand we are enabling. If you have a boss that is doing that and you're not complaining, you're not saying anything, as long as nobody is reporting this kind of boss or those type of bosses, then they go free. They go free. If there could be a way that you want justice for yourself, making it the general context, the work environment in Nigeria, there's still a lot of things that needs to change.
00:29:25
Speaker
I hope and wish there's something we can do about it. For them, like I, somebody asked me sometimes to describe a particular situation and I said it's more a cultic life because that level of leadership, if you report this person, you get blamed for it at the end of the day. They all behave as if they protect themselves, including the women amongst them at that leadership position. They protect themselves.
00:29:49
Speaker
So if you're not careful, you're trying to do the right thing by reporting this boss, that this person is molesting me, or is harassing me, or is denying me what should be, belong to what should be my rightful position or something, then you could backfire because of the call it occultic like leadership.
00:30:06
Speaker
It's interesting that you said it, because that's what we've also found in our research is that a lot of women end up having to self-manage and deal with the situation, either by conforming with, okay, well, this is what I've got to do and therefore I have to do it, or by taking themselves out of the industry or other ways in which they just get on with it, because they just feel this is the environment, we've just got to suck it up and get on with
Addressing Workplace Harassment
00:30:27
Speaker
it.
00:30:27
Speaker
That is fundamentally not right. The media needs to do a lot more in making sure the environment is enabling so that you can report, just like you said. But the current, from what you described, this current status quo is that you report, you're reporting to the same set of people.
00:30:45
Speaker
And in the end, you end up being re-victimized in this situation and there is no kind of recourse to help. So I did a similar research specifically in Rwanda where we found sexual harassment was such a huge thing. And so I presented my research to a room full of media managers from all the media in Rwanda.
00:31:03
Speaker
And in that room, they unanimously agreed to set up an anti-sexual harassment commission that is independent of the media regulators, et cetera. But it is a commission set out to do this very specific thing so that there is a safe environment for you to report. How viable do you think something like that is in an environment like Nigeria?
00:31:22
Speaker
We have a public complaint commission that I believe at the moment should have been able to handle such situations. I think there's a lot of work in this area that we need to do. I don't know how viable it would be if it's in Nigeria. I'm thinking about it. How strong would it be? Would it work?
00:31:37
Speaker
It may work and then it may not work. They always are friends. The way Nigeria works at the moment, call that, you press button and then you at the lower realm or at the lower kiddah, you're still the one that will get the brunt, you know, that will bear the brunt at the end of the day.
00:31:53
Speaker
I don't know if the, what Rwanda did could work in Nigeria. Yeah, you know, that's interesting. It's from what you've described as a cultural of acceptance of, you know, you conform or you leave kind of thing. And there is no recourse for support. And the consequences obviously is then, therefore, when you do attain those leadership, when you do attain those successes, there is that mingling up with, oh, did she do it because, did she get it because of this? Because she slept with this person.
00:32:17
Speaker
And some may be true, some may be not, but there is that kind of culture now that you just get on with it. And it's a shame to know that the environment perhaps is not even conducive enough for a level of change. That means a commission like that would even work.
00:32:33
Speaker
I just, you know, there's something we call the Nigerian factor. It's such a unpredictable thing. And because the powerful people wield all the power. So if you don't also have someone strong behind you or a powerful person behind you, I honestly cannot say it will work or it will not work. I don't know.
00:32:51
Speaker
But it's interesting that you said that because even in the Rwanda case, the person that chairs this committee is the director general of one of their main media organizations. It's really championing this move for gender equality. So I guess what we're saying here is that actually we need somebody of that level who is the director general of biggest media organizations to champion something like this.
00:33:10
Speaker
and who is genuinely passionate about ending sexual abuses or sexual harassment in the worker environment. If a person is also liable and you're reporting someone that is doing the same thing, you won't get any quality results in Nigeria. And that's that is the unfortunate reality for a lot of women in news media in the country. Thank you so much, Moyo, for speaking with me today. What next
Moyo's Career Transition and Future Plans
00:33:31
Speaker
for you? Tell us what's happening next for Moyo Thomas. What next for me?
00:33:39
Speaker
I think I'm actually hoping to leave mainstream media soon. Oh really? I'm hoping to leave mainstream media soon, yes. Okay, so remember this is the podcast that's going to be going out the street boss now.
00:33:51
Speaker
Yes. I don't have a timeline to it. But then I don't think I keep this a secret. I think I say it all the time. I always say mainstream media is good when you're much younger. In a few months I'll be 45. Okay. So I just see that I'm getting too old for the running around for stories and all those things.
00:34:14
Speaker
I'm not leaving journalism, I'll still be in the media sector, but then it will be a huge work. Okay, thank you so much Moyo Thomas, it's been a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you too, thank you for having me.
00:34:32
Speaker
I really enjoyed this conversation with Moyo discussing the importance of gender-sensitive reporting in news media, the realities of changing the environment to be more enabling for other women working in media industries. I hope you found this episode enlightening.
Conclusion and Invitation for Participation
00:34:51
Speaker
If you'd like to join me on an episode of this podcast, please contact me at GMC at AfricanWomenInMedia.com. You can also visit our main website at AfricanWomenInMedia.com to find out more about our work. In the show notes, there's a list of organizations and helplines to support you if you have experienced any of the topics we have discussed today. And don't forget, join the conversation using hashtag HeyMediaTime.
00:35:17
Speaker
Her Media Diary is a product of African women in media and NGO advocating for gender equality in the industry. This episode was hosted by Dr. Yemi Siakini Bobola and produced by Fadila Sadal as a part of 5 podcast series on sexual harassment in the media. All musical featured in this podcast is by Nana Kwaibina. Thanks for listening. Join us again next time.