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Her Media Diary Episode 27: “Finding Your Voice Amidst Chaos” with Rosebell Kagumire
38 Plays3 months ago
Rosebell Kagumire is a trained journalist, rights advocate, digital strategist, public speaker and award-winning blogger, with expertise in human rights, gender, peace and conflict issues.
In this episode, Rosebell recounts the challenges and dangers she faced as a young female journalist reporting from the front lines in South Sudan. These experiences exposed her to the harsh realities of war and the unique struggles faced by women in conflict situations and ignited her passion for advocating for women's rights and African feminism.
Subscribe to Her Media Diary now on your favourite podcasting platform https://linktr.ee/hermediadiary
Learn about African Women in Media at https://africanwomeninmedia.com
List of Organisations/Resources to Support Journalists
Holistic Resilience: Psychological care for journalists
Peace and Conflict Reporting Training
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Transcript
Women's Experiences in Peace Talks
00:00:04
Speaker
Before I went home I was in southern Sudan which was not a country yet. and The Ugandan government and the rebels were having peace talks and often I was the only woman journalist in that room full of government soldiers and rebels representatives. We were staying in tents literally by the river Nile at that point and attending the peace talks and mostly everyone is a man so you rely on your male journalist friends to really protect you literally because this was a hostile situation for example I had one of the peace negotiators I wanted an interview with him and he asked me to go to his hotel room yeah I quickly understood I said wow he was talking to all the men and giving them all the bites and everything and for me he wanted me to go to his hotel
00:00:54
Speaker
I quickly thought about it and asked one of the male journalists to escort me at that time. And he was kind of shocked that I came with ah another journalist.
00:01:06
Speaker
Imagine a world where we have gender equality and equity in and through the media. That is our mission at African Women in Media. I'm Dr. Emsi Akimbobola, your host, and this is Her Media Diary, a podcast that captures the lived experiences of African women working in media industries.
Introducing Rosebell Kagunire
00:01:25
Speaker
In this episode, I'm joined by Rosebell Kagunire, a trained journalist rights advocate, digital strategist, public speaker and award-winning blogger with expertise in human rights, gender, peace and conflict issues. Rose Bell recounts the challenges and dangers she faced as a young female journalist reporting from the front line in South Sudan. These experiences exposed her to the harsh realities of war and the unique struggles faced by women in conflict situations. And it ignites her passion. for advocating for women's rights and African feminism. Throughout this series, we will be in conversation with African women who have covered or are covering conflict situations to share their lived experiences. By inviting these voices into conversation, we hope to provide solutions to break down barriers faced by African women in media industries.
Rosebell's Ugandan Roots
00:02:30
Speaker
So thanks for doing the interview Rose but I don't know whether you've listened to previous episodes but we always like to start with kind of trying to get to know the person first and the history and you know, so where did you grow up Rose well?
00:02:44
Speaker
Oh, I grew up in a a village in Uganda, southwestern Uganda, a place called Busheni. And I stayed there for 18 years and studied from southwest of Uganda for those years before going to Kampala for my university. Okay, so you grew up for quite a while in the village in Uganda. What was that like for you? Taking you back memory lane?
00:03:12
Speaker
Yeah, just like most people, you know most of the Ugandans, they say you're not from Kampala, we are from somewhere. So unless my generation, you're never born like in in the city. there Those are very few people. So we are all.
00:03:27
Speaker
village. So it was it was lovely experience. I still got there. I still have my family there. um I spent a lot of time there when I'm not traveling. It was a lovely childhood, you know, freedom. When when I think of like, even where my spirits want to be, that's what I imagined because as a child, you are free to roam around, you know, dance, play.
00:03:52
Speaker
you know, ah living in a community where you're not afraid of going to a neighbor's place, you know, all your neighbors, first of all, by but at the age of seven, you know, so many households and you you you do similar things with everybody. So for me, it's it's it's always been that kind of experience that ah grounds me in the understanding of community and what community is about. That's what I love. And that's the kind of place I grew up. Very, very peaceful, green.
00:04:20
Speaker
ah Rolling hills, beautiful, still to this day, amazing. Yeah. Yeah, you know it sounds wonderful. What's your fondest memories of those 80 years? Well, ah my fondest memories is really to sit after dinner or even before with my grandfather and my grandmother. And they loved me a lot. I think for me, when I think of love, the earliest memories of actually people who loved me were my grandparents. and They're very fond of me. ah always been a very, very interesting, seeing curious child. So yeah I was always surrounded by adults asking for me to do this, teaching me this and that. And those are the memories, like evening hours after dinner, my grandmother is telling me stories, teaching me different things, and my grandfather too would would be teaching me both of them. So those are my really good memories. Yeah. Now we have a lot in common in terms of that because I was very close to my maternal grandparents.
00:05:18
Speaker
I miss them dearly. And one of the things I always wish I did was to ask them more questions, like know more about their own childhood, their own grade of stuff, you know. Yeah. So tell me more about kind of the influence that they had on you and, you know,
00:05:34
Speaker
what it was like for you in that village environment also growing up? For me, both my ah batano and batano grandparents, they came from the same village actually. My parents are neighbours, literally. So I grew up with ah both families and they all loved a lot of education, you know. ah My batano grandfather never really started that much higher.
00:05:56
Speaker
But he was very respected, had and worked so hard, um used to you know fight for school land from people who wanted to grab it. And he he was very invested in like you know education. And when at the time when people were saying like a girl cannot go to school, he was changing these ah narratives. and On my maternal side, my grandfather was a teacher. He was well educated, and he had $5. All of them, he took to school. So for me, those are very good foundations. And my grandmothers, both of them, even if they are not actually educated, like they didn't really go to school, they supported their children to to to have an education. And I think one of the most hilarious stories is them telling us the experience of attempted adult education.
00:06:45
Speaker
it was It was very difficult and they were annoyed with the whole situation of adult education. But actually they attended classes, like there were some some initiatives they tried to attend and adult education. But even when they could, you know, they were not in school, they really supported their children to have an education. They were hardworking. and Yeah, like everyone was supportive for me. ah to to From my mother's time, my mother went to school, her sisters went to school.
00:07:12
Speaker
on my dad's side, people went to school, so it was always that understanding that I'm going to go to school. I don't have a memory of ah assuming, like but to as a child, like what I'm supposed to do, school was always the place I i was going to go.
00:07:28
Speaker
and not any other expectation. Expectation was good school excel and do your thing. So for me those are very very important foundations and especially I say this because not everybody in the village was like that absolutely. So and I was very privileged that even when I lived in the village I had generations of people would go to school and I never doubted what education should mean to me. And I never, as as many people contended with these questions, ah many young women, many young girls, ah whether really they belong to school or they belong in any space, I have never had to contend with this kind of feeling where I belong and where I don't belong. So what was your experience like then back then in terms of being in education in school? What was your schooling experience like?
00:08:12
Speaker
Actually for the first six years of my education I went to a village school where my home we would run to school like within 10 minutes you run and you're in class literally you know we we wake up you know you do home chores you fetch water we fetch water from the well and you leave the basics you wash dishes from the previous night you leave everything very ready so that whoever is taking care of after you got school that does not start from sp scratch then you just run to school and for me school was great because most of them my teachers were from the nearby you know ah communities we knew where they're from and it was always nice to see you know it's someone familiar also it's not someone and
00:09:01
Speaker
There's not this abstract idea of a teacher. A teacher is still a community person, part of the community. um And that is still a bit of different grounding, your respect for a teacher, but also not this kind of distance but from them, right? so So I remember that in a very humble school, but it was still doing really great. And I studied there for um six years um on my primary education before I transferred to the district school where in the district where my mom worked at
Path to Journalism and Women's Rights
00:09:33
Speaker
the time. And so where did your interests in women's rights, African feminism, journalism, all of that, where did that all first emerge?
00:09:41
Speaker
It's very difficult to but really pinpoint a place. I think that ah you kind of like, as you grow, you gravitate towards things that and what you think your purpose is and where you think you can be most useful as a person. But I've always been, let's say, as a child, like I say, I i used to perform for my my family members. The kid would be dancing. singing, acting, doing a play. So I've always been an expressive person. I express myself. I am not afraid of being, you know, audience, seeking audience. so and And the environment I grew up in allowed me to be that. And for me, I think that that is the biggest foundation for you to speak because you cannot really speak on key issues if you have not easily, you have to go back to like, where's my voice?
00:10:34
Speaker
Right? yeah for For me, voice has always been very integral of my childhood and everything. There's no point in my life I felt like, ah, I can't have my voice, you know? So for me, this is everything and every work, whether it's women's rights, whether it's media that I've worked in, um it goes back to voice. When do you think of like, as a child, did you have a voice? Did people allow you to space to be? So for me, it comes from that kind but also like growing up then later like you new teenager you're also aware as you grow up of the privilege you have like you're not not excessive privilege because i'm not from ah a wealthy family but still privilege has different layers if your parents are educated you're more likely to be aware of so many things and and if you extended family is educated you you really have like a bit of idea of what you want or you think so but it's a luxury
00:11:25
Speaker
to have in in many conditions in African countries, especially for a girl to have that ah space to to imagine what they want to be, even at the earliest stage, and and really try to work towards it. So for me, it comes back to voice, your own voice. And as I grow up, I realize that privileges, what's happening. I was very much interested in women's rights because um I went to university on a government scholarship. and my My parents were very relieved because they had a few other kids in school. and they wouldn't afford like a top university like Macquarie University in Uganda. So for me, I had to work extra hard to get into a government scholarship. But i actually, the course I wanted to to take was ah journalism. And if there was no like any intervention, I was missing it by like 0.5 thereabouts, right? But because Uganda actually parliamentarians earlier
00:12:21
Speaker
um women's rights ah groups had pushed to have this 1.5, if I remember well, for girls to really increase girls' intake in universities because it was still really, really low. Higher education was still very male. So I actually got to university because I earned that point because of women's rights groups and saying that to get the kind of course I i wanted in Hadrim to do. So for me, I become more more aware as I get to university of like, why this is very important, you know? ah What does this mean? It's very significant. So I think to to have a voice to speak on issues, it comes from deep reflection of your own experience and why you think your experience connects to others and where it matters. So for me, it comes from all these experiences. And it's not to say like, you know, my entire childhood or something was a blissful experience. But of course, ah you stay in the same country where there's wars going on, there's wars happening. As a child, you know, we lived through that. You're aware there's a war going on in a different part of the country. You consume this information. And as you become an adult, you try to understand why this, why that. So for me, the interest came from ah really seeking to understand
00:13:39
Speaker
Okay, I'm part of this country. but and they come from this place, but you know the world becomes starts becoming bigger from your small village to now a city, you're getting in a university. You learn, you get different experiences and you learn your own privilege, but also your own disadvantages in this whole. And then you learn to, when you speak up for yourself, how do you speak up for others? I think it's something you acquire along the way, but you always have like a foundation. Yeah, very important point. And I'm curious to know that transition from going from the village to the university, in the city, what was that like for you? Like when you take yourself back to that moment? It's quite a shocker because nobody prepares you for that, you know? I think I'd been only to Kampala only once for a holiday when my uncle told me, oh, you need to come and see Kampala. Just he was a kind enough. And of course, even in the holiday as a teenager, you were just in an enclosed place, right? So it's not like I saw it. So I didn't have a good idea of what it's worth. And It's very, very scary. And in Uganda, most of us go to boarding school, right? Most schools that are better performing, this is inherited from colonial times. There are no public schools that are this school. There are few which are great, which are public schools and accessible. So most schools that you want to go and get a good education,
00:14:58
Speaker
actually boarding school. So that means that as a teenager, this really cuts you off a lot from the reality of, you know, ah while you are a kid and you're free and all this as you're at an adult ascent and that you're really in a very closed environment. And these are like four years of your life, five years of your life, four, six years of your life, you're in a very neatly closed environment. And I went to an old girls school. So suddenly you are out in the world.
00:15:26
Speaker
you're like 17 and everybody speeds you to the world, figure it out, you know, you need to do this. Suddenly you're an adult, things are expected of you. It was very, very difficult because even if, for example, it's on a government scholarship, it was hard to get upkeep. Sometimes, you even if you if you're on a great scholarship, you have certain meals, but really horrible meals.
00:15:48
Speaker
so So you really have to defend the relatives, family, to really send you some little money. So it was a struggle to come from like, you know, you've been like you've been at least eating well, I think in second risk school where I was, it was really good in that way in terms of nutrition and stuff. And suddenly you're struggling, you're you're becoming an adult, you're also struggling with basic things like nutrition and getting the food. it's It's just shaking because my entire life I never had to struggle to think of food. yeah Because if you and live in a village, if food is there, there's a plantation here, everything is plenty, especially in Uganda, like it's really like food is everywhere. But suddenly you're in a city where money to get everything is money. And your parents don't really have this kind of money. So it's a struggle. So for me, in terms of financial, you know, all these finances and day to day living, basic living,
00:16:42
Speaker
actually it becomes a struggle. It's like a rude awakening to like what adulthood is going to be, you know. So so that, ah yeah, that is really hard and to, of course, navigate city life and being alone, being independent as a human being for the first time. It's an extremely fragile time and many things can go wrong, you know. Yeah.
Early Journalism Experiences
00:17:04
Speaker
And so did you end up studying journalism? I did. I did a study at Macquarie University ah mass communication, which, you know, includes journalism, public relations, international relations, economics. It's a lot at the undergraduate level. So then um before I actually then finished my university, like in my second year, I went to do an internship at the Daily Monitor, which is one of the leading newspapers in the country. And I never looked back. okay' always if In fact, I studied more. I did less studies. I did more work and more being at work. It was very worrying. Yes, my parents were not sure I was going to pass university.
00:17:50
Speaker
but But most of my time, and and again it came from, I think a bit of discontent, like the things, I was now in a newsroom and I could see daily realities of what's gentleness is about. And then sometimes you go back to school and you see the kind of education being offered has reports, right? And it disconnects, right? Between the education and the practice, yeah.
00:18:10
Speaker
Absolutely, a big disconnect. So even if this is the best university in Uganda, like there is so much disconnect, you know, ah problems plaguing the university, of course, a lecturer has not been paid so many strikes. And this is like your introduction to struggle really to understand like, oh, how everything affects you.
00:18:28
Speaker
But at the same time, like I was already in a newsroom ah at the age of 19. And I'm taking on you know small assignments and understanding and different perspectives, really, and understanding the country. like the What really is this system you know before you always think, oh, this is happening, but really to understand who are the forces behind this and that. It was very incredible for me to open my eyes and for people to open for me, because actually I had an uncle in the same newsroom. And and and and it was very,
00:18:57
Speaker
Yeah, it was very privileged for me to actually get the placement and actually perform and stay there and get my place in the ah and in the newsroom and stay after my university to work there. yeah So what would you say having that opportunity to be in that active newsroom whilst in your education, what would you say that did for you in terms of now when you then finished your education and began to flourish? What was the impact for you?
00:19:23
Speaker
I think it's quickly introduced me to the dynamics of you know society, not just the newsroom, but what is worth in society. Because as a journalist, you are a very privileged person, actually. Because on a daily basis, you interact with so many layers of society. You could be sent to a market to talk to traders. You could be sent to the presidential briefing. so So you're able to transit to draw society and sit for what it is, right? and and And for me, I think that is very, very, very privileged to access. That very few people, I think very few pro professions have managed to teach anybody like that in real life, to be able to to really look at what everybody, different aspects of society are doing, whether they are in harmony or this
00:20:07
Speaker
it you know how they affect each other ah to watch that and it gives you a good foundation of like questioning and learning and I always wanted to learn so for me it was very very it was like I'm in school to be honest like for me the newsroom was the school actually many times so it's built to me for me that big foundation and in Uganda that we still had um the war going on in Northern, and North and Northeastern, a project of part of Uganda yeah was in war. The war only ended in 2009, thereabout. ah But my whole like childhood, that country that part of the country was mostly in war, right?
00:20:47
Speaker
And in I come from a country where there had never been war. So for me, then I start seeing the ah questions, the questions that linger for a country, for a society, how differences, what informs that one person goes up in a part that is ah really under conflict and massive displacement. And you're actually in the same country living peacefully, like I've explained, my childhood being very, very happy childhood.
00:21:13
Speaker
and having no more problems of you know outside the conflict, like ah your family is struggling with money to take you to school, that was a normal problem. For while the kids in another part of the country were running for their life, losing their life, being kidnapped, you know all this for me, journalism then exposed me. it was um I was no longer just a reader. I was actually on the inside.
00:21:36
Speaker
seeing people covering this war and understanding what it means. And I think early on, I was able to go to the north of the country. And it was for me, the most but really some of the most moving experiences was the fact that there were girls younger than me. I've just finished my university, still in university, maybe around 20.
00:21:56
Speaker
these kids are like 14 years old, carrying babies from rape. It was my first time like to, you know, witness that it was just like heartbreaking. I remember literally being a 20 year old being in my hotel room and crying in the night, like, you know, because I didn't prepare like I nothing would prepare me for this kind of of mass suffering and violence on such a scale that I'd never seen. So for me these kind of assignments really earlier on ah showed me that even and if like the war was going on, girls were having a way different experience of war.
00:22:36
Speaker
than anybody, and the other people. so So understanding these differences and how and and putting myself like, OK, these are people my age. you know ah Some of them were younger than me. My life could be this. So question and seeing that privilege and also asking yourself why their life has become like that, why an alternative is not being put forward. So for me, these idea assignments ah opened my eyes in terms of power. And who's at the bottom of power? Who's at the top of power? Geographically, gender-wise, all these questions that we still contend with today. It was my early, like, really exposure to these kind of stories, to cover these kind of stories, and that that opened my eyes. I want to go back to that 20-year-old Roosevelt in the hotel room, after witnessing that. And, you know, as you were talking, I was just thinking, well, what should the newsroom have done to prepare you for that?
00:23:33
Speaker
How did you kind of go through that mentally and resolve that with yourself? What was your experience beyond after that? I don't think anybody was being prepared because I think that even the journalist ah why had come before me because this was towards the end of the war actually, yeah had actually been on the for front lines and had seen really gruesome atrocities and there was this whole idea that you're a journalist, you're covering this and there was really no debriefing about you, what happened to you. Never, never existed, right? And never, not for anybody else that had gone, and covered that war in any of the you know massacres that the country had witnessed, right? So really, yeah, yeah you you really had to find your own way of like channeling these
00:24:20
Speaker
kind of um conflicting feelings of like, whoa, like you live a privileged life, this is what other people are living, but this is your job and what do you do about it, right? um And that I really, I continued, ah not only when I left to Delhi Monitor, I worked briefly for ah several other outlets, and I still continue to cover like the post conflict recovery.
00:24:44
Speaker
in northern Uganda and still seeing the persistent issues. And I became more really interested, of course, in what women's war experiences were like and really bringing that out because remember that the majority of people covering this war are men. Yes, they can say this is what women went through, but there is a certain layer of access in the and story and and and reflection that it it takes a certain positionality for you to to say, whoa, like
00:25:19
Speaker
you know, we need to learn this more, to understand this more, to keep this on the forefront, right? So for me, those were really life changing and finding ways to, I wasn't covering this constantly, so that helped a lot, but I would take several trips to different parts to write about what was going on. And of course, all of these things that you're saying about women's experiences, particular experiences during conflict,
00:25:42
Speaker
is why we have mechanisms like Women, Peace and Security agenda and the National Action Plans, etc. I mean, I've researched this and what I find interesting that not many national action plans consider the experiences of women journalists in these spaces as well, right? Which speaks to kind of what you're saying also in terms of your experience as that young girl And obviously you subsequently gone to getting your experience really resonates with me and the importance of one for the newsrooms to reconsider this, but also for it to be part of national action plans. and
00:26:15
Speaker
regarding the WPS. Yes. And so I know you went on to do a master's in media piece and conflict studies, and you've worked, contributed to the Institute for Warm Peace Reporting. and And obviously, like you said, worked with other broadcasters, the yeah Ugandan radio network, NTV, Ugandan and all that. So how did your kind of your area and your your niche become to emerge, you know, through all of this experience?
Covering South Sudan Peace Talks
00:26:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think it was from that area experience with the element and going to Northern Uganda and being sparked and really um that left in me that I needed to continue to understand the aspects of war that are affecting women. And people on the margins, like really, there is the marginalized and there's really, really people in the very periphery of this everything. So before I went for my master's actually at that point, there the the end of war progressed and I actually was in southern Sudan.
00:27:16
Speaker
which was not a country yet, um before sad as South Sudan became a country. I was in Sudan, ah in southern sudan um where the Ugandan government and the rebels were having peace talks, and often I was the only woman journalist in that room, and a room full of government soldiers and rebels, representatives. To be honest, again, no one prepared me for this, right? They see you, you're young a young woman who knows politics, who's interested in politics. You have the The gut for it, this this is what do they see. And unfortunately, our newsrooms were not well equipped to prepare you like I was going in the middle middle of nowhere in this case. it was Juba was not a city, it was like a village.
00:28:02
Speaker
small little tents we were staying in tents literally by the river Nile at that point and attending the peace talks and often staying for like three weeks in the peace talks right and mostly everyone is a man so you rely on your male journalist friends to really protect you, literally, because this was a hostile situation. For example, I had one of the peace negotiators. I wanted um an interview with him, one of the delegations, and he asked me to go to his ah hotel room. I was staying with Janle, so yeah I quickly understood. I said, whoa, why he was talking to all the men and giving them all the bites and everything. And for me, he wanted me to go to his hotel. but
00:28:48
Speaker
So I quickly thought about it and asked one of the male journalists to escort me at that time and say, let's go together. you know um And he was kind of shocked that I came with another and And you can tell, you know what I mean? As women, this kind of aggression, microaggression men do ah in any situation where they think they have an upper hand, you can tell what his intention is. you know uh to put you in a certain situation of compromise a certain situation of like coercion that no one would even believe it right so so this kind of experience for me i i was seeing that every day and including like you're in a room full of men and you're aware they're all looking at you like in a very this kind of violence is very difficult to explain somebody you know but being really aware of of it and finding
00:29:44
Speaker
like your your employer is not really working with you on this you're not even telling it's not something you know it's a sexual violence is not something we even talk about ourselves right you can actually go as a journalist talking about women's experiences with violence but if it's happening to you then you can't easily talk about it And the employer is not really reading you for this kind of like, you're going out, it's going to be in a very remote place, you're going to stay three weeks among men, how you should actually protect yourself, who can you, what are the numbers? I think back like, I was like, this was crazy.
00:30:23
Speaker
you know this was crazy I was relying on my relations with like ah relationships with the the Uganda government military right because it was there at least I can with the military youth you know that whatever happened you could try to push back because it has there's an audience back but at the same time it wasn't like there are rules right where you are and And at the same time, a very peculiar experience. So in the evening, of course, you're finished. It's a very ah remote place. There are a few hotels and emerging small bars in within hotel rooms. So as journalists, you go after work, you know, you're hanging out with your friend and with your friends, debriefing.
00:31:07
Speaker
you know, having a drink here and there to just kind of relax, right? Take it take a rest. So I remember, again, a very peculiar experience there, a man coming to talk to me. He's a man, a Sudanese man. And I'm like, you know,
00:31:26
Speaker
Blocking, and my friend really saved me. He told me, oh, you do not say no, Sudanese man. You have to entertain the conversation. Yes, you have to entertain the conversation and let him down gently. and Like someone had to whisper that in my ear. I say, so what happens? Like everybody here is almost armed. Do you realize?
00:31:52
Speaker
And i you know like again it was a bad situation within a hotel that is guarded, right? So I did not like think about that. I'm like, okay. And these are situations, social situations where you are still a feminist in a conflict situation that you remember about masculinity.
00:32:10
Speaker
You know, the dangers of you as a woman, as a female journalist, and sometimes are not that different from the women who are facing the brutalities of war. So it's just like you have more power, maybe understanding of how to forget you could call a friend, you could call this, but actually the way the society is designed to debase women It doesn't free you, even if you're a journalist, you know, your class, your position as a journalist does not protect you often from this kind of thing. So you have to learn to kind of navigate them. so So for me, working in that area, I saw that both from people who are on the official, you know, being international media, the very people interview being the people sexually harassing you, plus an ordinary man you just saw in a bar.
00:32:58
Speaker
And someone know warning you that he could be armed. Even if he's not armed now, if you reject him and he knows where are you're staying, he can come and shoot you. Like this kind of violence. Yes, this is what the one like, OK, you just need. And we have to leave quickly. Like we have to leave quickly the the place and and just go somewhere else. so So these are the kind of dynamics that when I think of like, what is it like, how much we were going by you know just assuming we're all journalists right that's what we're all you know you're a journalist you're brilliant you you can navigate this you can interview anybody you're very outspoken and brave that's all you needed to be but then you reach and you realize like gender is a question Again, it's the question. You cannot escape that. You're not just a journalist.
Gender Issues in Conflict Zones
00:33:48
Speaker
You ask so many other things that people can pick on and use to violate you. So I think that I learned so much.
00:33:59
Speaker
So guys, it's that time of the year where we're beginning to plan towards our next African Women in Media conference, which will be in Dakar, Senegal. The theme is media and sustainability. And we are approaching that from three perspectives. One, in terms of media business and financial models. Secondly, in terms of development goals. And finally, in terms of media colleges and particularly focused on artificial intelligence. and asking these questions about the industry, but also the voices and perspectives of women in these spaces. So I hope you join us in Dakar, where we'll have a range of panels and workshops and exhibitions. um Usually our conferences are attended by people from all over the world, since 5% of our attendees come from all over the world. So I look forward to seeing you guys on the 5th and 6th of December for AUM 2024. And if you'd like to attend the conference, visit AUM24,
00:34:55
Speaker
That's AWIM24.AfricanWomenInMedia.com. See you in the car.
00:35:05
Speaker
That's interesting. And so how did you go from there? Because that sounds like, I mean, I cannot even begin to picture your mindset and just being in that environment. How did you go from there to going to African feminism and set that up and all of that area of work on women's rights?
00:35:23
Speaker
Yes, so for me doing all that, actually, I think what galvanized me was when I finally decided to do my masters in media peace and conflict, that is, and for the first time, because in the journalism school, they don't teach you anything about gender, it's only like, you know, you treat people, ah you know, include women, you know, it's not depth, right?
00:35:44
Speaker
so for the first time i was exposed to gender theories understanding like the questions i always had the discomfort like even not from journalism from an early age as a girl like things i would seem to say to them like about why right it was the first time like whoa this, I'm not crazy, right? I'm not like an outlier. This, someone has actually written about all this and it's here. And this is the time like the internet is becoming more available, ah cheaper for us to access and read. And it was my first time trust me to really be in a class in someone and gives me the theories of gender as it pertains to conflict, pertains to how women are treated in society, how women and different people of different genders are classified historically. You know, just to take that class for me was one of the most eye-opening journeys. And I must say, like, I was um very lucky to be taught by Mona El-Tahawi, one of the most, you know, front Egyptian feminists. yeah And she she had the fact that she had had to
00:36:51
Speaker
worked for agencies, I think Reuters and others, ah Guardian in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and had covered North Africa. ah She was teaching me and sharing, and she was teaching a class on Arab women and the media.
00:37:06
Speaker
it's exposed for me like the genesis of media in the Arab world, which is very, very similar to experiences as ah an African woman, you know being taught by an Egyptian woman at an international level and exploring you know layers of colonization and patriarchy and understanding this from a woman you know who has similar experiences of the same continent as me was very, very powerful. And and and seeing like the experiences were not that different but also learning more about the genesis of like the Arab media and the emergence and where Arab women feated in this grand at the time. Remember, we are in post, you know, like all this terrorism and terror war that America was fighting and everything. And the Arab world is really in in a very big agitation moment trying to fight back. So it was a very, very, ah very important time for me to take that course.
00:38:04
Speaker
to understand. I remember us after school after class like chatting about her covering Muammar Gaddafi literally being being in Libya and she shared this publicly like literally Muammar Gaddafi she was because she was one of the only probably an only woman or so in the as a journalist, Egyptian journalist in the delegation of journalists having questions and people blocking her from actually accessing that and glad is sexually harassing her so we we would then have these conversations that were very very similar her having a history of ah coming from journalism and now ah teaching us and and also introducing me to different ah lines of thought about feminism it was very very important grounding for me it made sense to every question in that heart
00:38:54
Speaker
for me from my journalist's experience and as a person. um It made sense. So when I came back actually after my my course, um because the university really allowed you to really do like a theoretical paper or you could go to to to to to the field,
00:39:12
Speaker
and gather, do ah more research, you know. and So I opted to work with the Women's Rights NGO in Uganda, which was doing post-conflict work. So I needed to go back again to like what had i had the work I had worked on. And and i I could not believe the amount of like stories i was having access to now that i was working with an NGO literally being there to do my ah kind of internship so that i can do my master's thesis from that and i was having access to they were having for example reproductive rights i had no understanding how ah prior really
00:39:54
Speaker
ah extent of what this means in a post-conflict society. And I was going with doctors doing open boot camps like for the first time seeing upfront like the the impact of the war on women's reproductive health, you know. I remember I think from one of the very big stories I actually interviewed a a woman who had come and she had the a relapse of the uterus, something like that. So where a condition where the uterus falls out of a woman because of, you know, as a result of rape and violence that has impacted. And she had lived with this for years. Nobody, you know, ah in the war, nobody's concerned about, you know, they say, well, war victims, rape victims. But this kind of service is unavailable for a long time. And I remember talking to her and seeing her get the surgery, right?
00:40:48
Speaker
and And the fact that this was something that had crippled her entire existence, right? After that, you cannot go out, you cannot, you know, your whole life is affected, you know, and and and see that. So I was able to see this kind of interventions again from the other side of people who are doing interventions, post-conflict interventions, and what was working, what wasn't working.
00:41:11
Speaker
So I continued my work through that placement. And and I think that's how I i figured like i I really need to build more on what I already learned. It's not just for peace and conflict, but really understanding the the the role of voice in dismantling all these hierarchies.
00:41:30
Speaker
and violent structures that enabled this kind of experience to happen. Because for me, then like mainstream journalism was very difficult for me now to reintegrate back. It was not only easy for me to just interview a person.
00:41:46
Speaker
i needed to know what are the built mechanisms, what do we question, how do we connect this person's story every day, not just a story that I leave, how do we reconnect this person's experience to the experience of many others, not just in that locality, but what's happening on the African continent. and i As I traveled from different countries, for example, on the same road, I was able to go to Liberia and see the post-conflict issues there. I was interviewing refugees from Congo in Uganda. I was able to go to Bukavu and visit Dr. Mukwege's hospital, Panzi Hospital, doing incredible work. and And for me, that was like, yeah, there has to be
00:42:28
Speaker
it's not enough to just tell the story one day and move
Digital Media and Feminism
00:42:32
Speaker
to another one. So it was for me difficult to really to work towards ah being back in the very mainstream media. So I had really by then, like even as a journalist, I'd really started blogging. I was already developing a whole different as new media, a lot of media houses were still like really behind and not really realizing the importance of emerging technologies and what was going to happen and because of the education and different courses are taken I'd seen what ah people were doing in Egypt. This is post-revolution and this is pre-revolution and post-revolution and I was already talking to belonging communities you know some mixed with journalists activists and I was belonging to other communities a whole lot together so it's a really
00:43:19
Speaker
um grounded me in the idea that um I think what then later journalism caused solution based journalism, I see that emerging. But for me, it was not enough to say he she said, you know, and this, it wasn't there was something missing in the very taken away journalism as imported from the Western world was approaching the equations. So I needed a different kind of approach. And that's how I grew in the blogging platforms, working with the writing at the Global Voices, for example, the platform, very powerful, connecting different bloggers worldwide and the different activists, different issues. ah To belong there was for me to learn on the different emerging issues and the connections that was happening on the continent also.
00:44:04
Speaker
So that was a kind of, you know, before we come to even African feminism, I was still like part of the blogging communities, um pushing as as we started, we're one of the first people on on Twitter as Ugandans. I was carrying, I was responding to global campaigns like CONI 2012, you know, with all experience in in Northern Uganda, South Sudan,
00:44:28
Speaker
and And Congo, i I was responding to these kind of viral campaigns that were distorting the idea of what Africans needed. you know So I found that different, like channeling all this information I have built, like, so what was the question? What are you going to do about it? What are you going to use it for, right? And that so ah so that's how I start like really being invested in the digital, the emerging digital world and the way information was being and kind of democratized that you could actually have a voice quicker. whereas Whereas in the newsroom, the equivalent of the voice in the newsroom is where you have like opinions, pages, and columns. And those have always been dominant for me. They were men. Men of a certain age, you couldn't come up as a young person to have an opinion in the very traditional form of media, very patriarchal. So I had already begun that kind of resistance, having my own blog. When I did a story,
00:45:25
Speaker
I would actually go and put my own thoughts on that story. I would give you the story of how technical media wants this, but I would actually give my own comment of what actually could, could happen. What do I think? And it's not like all the time you're right, but those questions that linger, that you cannot carry me into the story, I needed them to go somewhere. So ahpa as as I was still in journalism, I was growing a community online growing a platform, ah blogging on my platforms and connecting with different platforms on African continent and worldwide. So that's how I think i'm able like to I was able to like to build then that voice, that then i I kind of slowly find like communities of African feminists. And I'm like, okay, actually, the bigger question is that you have all this question, we know all this,
00:46:17
Speaker
But the traditional media is locked. Even the women who are there, like the space for change is still very difficult to navigate. ah So that's how I actually ended up in African feminism and say, OK, the women know their story. They know what's going on. They can write about it.
00:46:34
Speaker
We can no longer rely on official status quo media to tell this story. Even oftentimes when they get it wrong, we can respond. We can show what the alternative voice look like. What people um who are fighting for this think is very, very important. So that's how I really ended up in the and the feminism. It's been really interesting hearing your journey and some of those experiences you shared, particularly, for example, you know in in those conflict environments and that journey of setting up um African feminism and all that's right. And I'm interested to know like, what has inspired you along
Inspirational Women and Advocacy
00:47:12
Speaker
the way? Who are those people who have mentored you along the way, supported you along the way? What is the old structure around you that enables you to kind of do the things you are doing?
00:47:22
Speaker
I'm a very structuralist person. If you know, like I don't like structures, so I don't have a structure. I just follow my my dreams. I just follow ah what calls me and and for me the dedication to and has knowledge among our people for you to understand, for people to learn from our history, for to learn histories of marginalisation and histories of triumph is very, very important for us to sustain our own selves today in building on the future. So for me,
00:48:00
Speaker
What sustains me is rooted in the need to see us advance and have better material conditions than what has been left for us or what you know all these systems have put us in. so ah For me, that that will always be the goal. And journalism is just a vessel or storytelling is a vessel. Ultimately, that's what it is. And definitely there's always been people have looked up to not from across that divide. ah Women's rights activists, people who were fighters, people who didn't have a place on the table, but they nevertheless came and fought and left something for us. um
00:48:45
Speaker
for For me, women in Uganda, when I look at women like Cecilia Aguilar, who just passed on, was a long-term member of parliament and leader, fearless leader. Those are the people I grew up looking up to and knowing that no matter what, I can ah can do it, you know? And of course, ah we always talked about the fact that you start from home. ah I've always had to ah good examples of women, ah even when they didn't make it for their resolve, for me is what the lesson is. Their resolve, no matter what life has been, they've navigated it, my mother, my aunties, and not being bogged down necessarily by and
00:49:25
Speaker
everything surrounding them but ah struggling and trying to make it so for me it's very very important to look most of the time when I look at any people who vi inspired me was always a women and because that is the inherent inherit experience of what I experience on the world so I can't easily I can find inspiration in other people but ultimately making it in life is very personal. It's a personal journey so you have to look really closely to those who share a similar journey as you are, as you even look up to those who might be different from you. and I think in different newsrooms I had many friends
00:50:07
Speaker
um who are really well-focused, a lot of really good friends, journalists, male and female, like, you know, in equal measure, that are people whom I so focused and I was like, you know, I want to be like that person, you know, in terms of focus, in terms of knowing ah what I want, what I want to do. And that has been very, very helpful. But but for me, usually it's always been like,
00:50:32
Speaker
ah my dedication to like, no matter where I am, no matter I change many newsrooms or I write for different people, it's always a reminder that, you know, ah this is a journey and it's a struggle. you You're using journalism as a vessel, but also many people have experienced these kind of things. As you, you know, I already talked about how Mona Elder, how he really had a big impact on how I look at my deep understanding of gender and what it means in the world. What it means to be a woman in the media world, and what it means to be a woman in the media world, but also looking at women in general and understanding how to represent them.
00:51:12
Speaker
and how to beat the long-standing stereotypes and and barriers that have been put because we don't live in a gender equal world. It's a hundred and plus years away from us. So the struggle would always be there. And you have to look to those who are fighting and like you, whether in other fields or in your own field. And talking about gender and media,
00:51:37
Speaker
from your perspective and based on your kind of context, what do you see if there was a there was one thing that you think was a glaring gap in all of the activism around women's rights and gender equality in media? What would you say that was?
00:51:52
Speaker
I think the the enduring struggle is literally, it's always patriarchy. And the fact that, you know, leadership, no matter where you are on this continent or over the world, it's deeply patriarchal. Even when you put women in charge, so people always say, you know, we need more women. Yes, we do, because women have a right to be there as much as men. It shouldn't even be a question. um But the question is that then what kind of politics do you espouse?
00:52:21
Speaker
it's deeply problematic that always sometimes when you push it, then the system that would rather have a woman who would represent women the same way that men have, right? But just put a woman there and say, oh, but we have women. They're making changes. Changing is hard, but it's not actually. When you know, when you agree agree that there's a system of marginalization, changing is not hard. ah Changing that is hard is to change your mindset, your old mindset as a man or leaving these places to understand that um it's more than just adding women in newsrooms, but really deeply looking at um the intersection of struggles of women and other people that have for a very long time been left out of not only newsrooms, but just based on society and public affairs, you know?
00:53:15
Speaker
So you still have, for example, in Uganda, only 20% of the news sources being women, even when you have places that are ah run by women. You know, the the new sources are not women. The new sources continue to be men. um And there's always persistent excuses about, but women don't do this. Women are not available. But yes, if you understand the structure of your society and what needs to be done in order to make women available, the problem is to think that the marginalized people will be the only one to work towards equality.
00:53:50
Speaker
Rather than looking at your position as someone um you know in charge of shaping opinion, shaping education over a country, shaping information, that you have to go an extra mile in order to bring the person who's not at the table. If women are are going home and paid care work is one of the biggest struggles for even journalists, even were women journalists, the fact that you have to go and get a child from school, teach them homework and do all these things.
00:54:20
Speaker
that oftentimes men don't do you know so unpaid care work so it's not only ah affects the women in the newsroom it affects the women that you're trying to make as news sources so if you understand this how do you work around them and the schedule but to get them to understand that their voice is important It's not that they don't work, it's just that they're burdened with so much care work already. That the availability, that you have easy availability of men cannot be the same as easy availability of women. And and for me, that was that's always a persistent, the lack of understanding of entrenched systemic discrimination and oppression of women. If no one understands that, then you do not, you make excuses for why women are noted in certain places.
00:55:05
Speaker
And also you don't put really long-term strategies to addressing these issues. You continue to blame that it's society that is like that. And we know that it's not enough to just mirror society. I think it was the great Ken Saruwa who said, it's not enough for a journalist to mirror society. Your job is greater than that. You're not just saying, oh, here they are saying this and that. And this is what they are, no, no, no, it's not like that.
00:55:31
Speaker
yeah We have a great responsibility as a storytellers, as ah as people are in places of influence who put a path to explain why things are the way they are. It's not enough to say this is what it is. you know So I think for me it's it's what remains a problem. And I guess much of what you're saying there really underlines the reason why we need to have equity. When um we're talking about equality, it's not just equality and inclusion, it's also about equity and that really, I mean, what you said really underlines the importance of that. um And we spoke earlier later on about kind of those who have inspired you towards where you are and your journey and having that kind of, you know, those people around you and looking up to others. So for those young African women looking up to you,
00:56:21
Speaker
right, coming up behind you, following your footsteps. What's your advice to them? Well, I would say that people are human and the journeys are quite unique, so don't be consumed by someone else's journey. And that's for me, I always have a very uncomfortable by idea of a role model. I don't. I just see people, they inspire me towards something and another one inspires me towards something. You can't find a person easily as a whole, as an inspiration.
00:56:47
Speaker
Sometimes there are those parts of the person that it will inspire you and other parts require you to question. So find what inspires you about anybody's journey or seek out to people who have come before you to understand the their struggles, their triumphs, and learn from them. But know that also your journey is quite unique, as much as it is still very connected to other people. So you when you understand that, then you will know how to use, I think, the influence you've been given, or where you found yourself, that you'll be able to connect the dots between yourself and the past, and then to be able to paint your own path.
00:57:25
Speaker
and bring about changes that we have not been able to bring so far. And that's what we need. We need to see new people, new voices, new movers for us to be able to shake the foundations of you know operation, to be able to advance our societies. I think ultimately that's what the call is about.
00:57:45
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, and I really love the way you framed that about that everybody's a whole right so that's which therefore means that the aspects of them that you're going to absolutely love and that's what is inspiring you. And then there's going to be aspects that actually is not so great.
00:58:00
Speaker
And I think not expecting everybody to be perfect, this ideal role model is really important. And this really resonated with me because a few years ago I met with somebody that I've always observed from my foreign the news and all those things, and just really inspired by all of the work she did. And I remember the very first time I met her, and somebody introduced us, she pretty much blanked me. And I was so distraught.
00:58:26
Speaker
And I was so like, what's this woman? And she kind of, you know, you know, when they just say hi and then walk, walk away. And I really had to take a few steps back. Cause like, that's really, you know, it was somebody that was really looking forward to meeting somebody that looked up to spoken about in spaces where she probably just never even knew that, you know, she had someone like me there. But actually took me a few days later. I just thought to myself, well, it was late in the evening. There was lots of people around. They're saying hello.
00:58:53
Speaker
She probably just had a very long, very hard day and was tired of all of your hellos. And she's only human, right? Absolutely. And actually we run to risk of letting those kind of moments you know overpower us and actually lose our dream or our inspiration because of that one tiny moment. But it's really important to understand that they're only human. And I've met her subsequently. We actually have each other's numbers now and it's a completely different person to the person I met that night. But actually I had to step back and and remember She's just human. Yeah. and And usually people, because media is about image also, so people carry a certain image. But sometimes the image does not match the politics of the person. yeah Or sometimes the person is simply tired. And also like ask you yourself why putting people in a pedestal? Our job is question of power. And when every time you put someone on a certain pedestal, you are giving them power.
00:59:48
Speaker
So ask yourself whom am I giving power and for how much power for what, right? yeah So if you finally meet the person and then maybe they don't adapt towards this image you have conjured in your head because of the space they occupy in the media industry or in society.
01:00:06
Speaker
then then you it's easier for you to walk back and say, oh, actually, yeah, it's totally possible that this can happen. And it's the same for me. It's a question of power and how you interact with power. And I think the job is for us to kind of shade that, you know,
01:00:22
Speaker
ways in which African societies but also hierarchical capitalist places give power, hierarchical power, that that then we tend to to think that, oh my god, I want to be like that person. No, but you just be yourself. yeah Maybe the aspects of that person that inspire you, but don't don't aspire to be like somebody. Aspire to be yourself because that person aspired to be themselves and that's why you find them to be ah is inspiring, you know, and also know that, you know, ah media representation, sometimes it's ah sometimes a facade. So it's your responsibility to say
01:00:58
Speaker
Does the politics match the expectation? Or it doesn't, but but then it you quickly gather yourself. Of course, we are not excusing that you the need for people to be human and and and respectful. ah For me, it's ultimately a question of power between whom you give that power.
01:01:17
Speaker
but also how power interacts with you. When that person knows they are powerful, then how do they interact with you? is that It's always something you always have to question, and and that's the way you can unravel this idea of models and inspirations. ah Inspiration is very important, but you have your own path, you know? ah Find a path. Use use whatever ah you you get. um Find whether it's experience, whether it's kindness is very important. Power is just sir ah with file you know, it can disappear, you know, ah tomorrow, you know, indeed, people retire, people move, but find people who are, you know, who are kind, who are humble, not humble, but being humble, not being humble, but actually humility in a way that is so ah deeply respectful understanding of power in in in the in the and need to be humane and relate to people in every way, ah in every opportunity you find. Absolutely. So what next for you, Rose? Wow, it's been a struggle, you know, post COVID and all this, the media environment, the online environment being totally, you know, unraveled, right? We have seen media platforms, we have seen the social media platforms.
01:02:30
Speaker
ha you know We've seen a monopolies kind of congregate around and social media platforms where most of us are basing our inform informing people where we are making communities, where we are sharing our stories. We found, a especially for women and maybe queer people, for minority people, the the social terrain is becoming extremely violent, extremely exclusionary because ah the The kind of ownership that we are seeing in these platforms has
01:03:04
Speaker
ah Zero care, they are interested in, it's capitalist, they're interested in money and and making profit over of rage, you know, so wait ah rage, there's no time to say, is this rage a good rage? Because there's good rage, which is changing things ah in a place, but there's rage that is deployed to actually attack a certain section of society, take away certain rights of a certain section of society. And unfortunately, um we see a lot of of of of that kind of rough terrain for journalists. You know, we see, you know, hate speech, disinformation, gender disinformation. So I am working a lot on the nexus of that, looking at gender disinformation already over all the barriers we've already seen of women and of coming in to be storytellers, to be journalists, to successfully be able to to to tell these stories. But also the challenges are
01:03:59
Speaker
if I imagine and you know building on those existing challenges. So I'm very much interested because having been online and most of my work being known mostly from online, although I worked in TV in Uganda, my work is mostly known online. So I'm interested in really how do we understand and in study the emerging threats on women journalists, you know ah queer journalists,
01:04:27
Speaker
you know people are marginalized doubly in society so that we are able to respond. But at the heart of it is the capitalist kind of ownership of technologies and platforms that does not care about the lives of those on the margins. So I'm interested more in that kind of um ah research, you know, sharing and making sure that we can continue to push, I see myself as that kind of at that nexus of pushing and understanding the experiences and then how do you push for change to to have platforms or um spaces that public spaces, which I see social media as a public space, that we don't go backwards where women were
01:05:08
Speaker
said there's a meeting you can't show up. You know, that that kind of thinking passes, right? Passes so you find conversations online or the very platforms very misogynistic and pushing away a lot of women. While you're also having young and emerging platforms, but often like how do you make them more and protection protection of young people who are coming up or on these platforms because that's where the stories are being told, that's where information is and knowledge is being shared and produced so it's very important that we protect or we challenge those spaces and continue to support emerging and alternative spaces that can
01:05:54
Speaker
It kind of gives us an idea of a healthy public discourse. you know that That's always going to be my dedication. What does a healthy public discourse look like for marginalised people, for women, socially? socially When we say marginalised, we don't mean in terms of like numbers, people tensing numbers. We're talking about in terms of social, political, economic power, kind of marginalisation, cultural marginalisation.
01:06:20
Speaker
how does that healthy public discourse, participation and engagement and getting whatever benefit you want to get out of it as that person work for you, how does that
The Power of Journalism
01:06:32
Speaker
look like? And there are emerging challenges that I think that you mentioned, especially highly visible female journalist and female, you know, um influences and and voices in our society. Thank ah think Absolutely. Thank you so much, Roosevelt. It's in such a pleasure hearing your story, your journey.
01:06:50
Speaker
You're an amazing person and I know the things that you're involved in now is, you know, I'm just wild, right? So thank you so much for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure. take kiss inina love italian take but
01:07:11
Speaker
It's been an eye-opening conversation with Roosevelt today, discovering first-hand what it's like to be a woman and a journalist covering war and conflict situations in any part of the world. And Roosevelt's story clearly reveals the need to find and hold on to one's own voice amidst all the chaos and noise that comes with conflict. She also emphasized the need for journalists to not only mirror society, but to set a positive agenda using the enormous power we wield in society. Drop me an email at gmc at AfricanWomenInMedia.com with your thoughts. I'm pleased if you'd like to be on an episode of Her Media Theory.
01:07:51
Speaker
Let me know. To find out more about African women in media and our work, visit our main website, Africanwomeninmedia.com. And in the show notes, there's a list of organizations and resources to support you if you have experienced any of the topics we have discussed today. And don't forget, join the conversation using the hashtag, Hemundia Diary.
01:08:14
Speaker
Hemi The Diary is a product of African women in media, an NGO advocating for gender equality in the media industry. And this episode was hosted by Dr. Yemisi Akimbopola, produced and edited by Blessen Udeobasi, as part of a four-episode series on women in conflict reporting. All music featured in this podcast is by Nana Kwabena. Thanks for listening and join us again next time.