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The uneasy relationship between politics & sport, with Andrew Bogut
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Andrew Bogut is Australia’s greatest ever men’s basketballer. His glittering professional career started in 2005 when he became the first Australian to go number #1 in the NBA draft, it reached its crescendo in 2015 with an NBA championship for the Golden State Warriors, and ended back in Australia with the Sydney Kings.
Off the court, he has developed a reputation as an intelligent, contrarian thinker on a wide range of issues. In this conversation, Andrew and host Will Kingston discuss the relationship between politics and sport, trans athletes and whether sporting clubs should take a position on the Voice referendum.
Follow Australiana on social media here.
Subscribe to The Spectator Australia here.
Listen to the Rogue Bogues podcast here.
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Transcript
Introduction to The Spectator Australia
00:00:00
Speaker
The Spectator Australia is a weekly delight for anyone who loves insightful analysis, contentious opinion and hard-hitting comment. With the finest writing on current affairs, politics, the arts, books and life, you will read regular columnists who delight, provoke and amuse, and editorial features of incredible breadth and depth.
00:00:20
Speaker
There is no party line to which its writers abound. Originality of thought and elegance of expression are the sole editorial constraints. A digital subscription is just $16.99 a month and you get your first month free. Sign up today at spectator.com.au forward slash join.
Who is Andrew Bogut?
00:00:52
Speaker
G'day and welcome to Australiana from the Spectator Australia, a series of conversations on Australian politics and life. I'm Will Kingston. My guest today is Andrew Bogert. Andrew is, almost inarguably, Australia's greatest ever men's basketballer. His glittering professional career started in 2005 when he became the first Australian to go number one in the NBA Draft. It reached its crescendo in 2015 with an NBA Championship for the Golden State Warriors and ended back in Australia with the Sydney Kings.
00:01:22
Speaker
Perhaps most endearing of all to Australian fans, he wasn't one of those entitled basketballers or tennis players who thought he was above playing for his country. On the contrary, he was a stalwart of the Boomers and is widely credited with revitalising Australian basketball.
Bogut's Political Beliefs
00:01:37
Speaker
All that stuff is marvellous, but it's not quite why he's here today. Andrew has used the platform given to him by basketball to speak his mind on a range of issues. I think he's one of the most interesting voices in the Australian social discourse. Andrew Bogert, welcome to Australiana. Thanks for having me. So you're almost entirely unique actually amongst retired Australian sportsmen and women.
00:01:59
Speaker
There are some sporting figures who speak out on social issues, but they're almost always taking safe positions that are supported by the mainstream. Craig Foster and Nova Paris are two that come to mind. I don't want to put a label on you. So how would you describe your, your political beliefs? My political beliefs though, a case by case basis.
00:02:19
Speaker
as I think most people should be. I get labeled a lot with right wing. I get labeled a lot with different things. People get mad because I won't label myself to a party and I won't label myself to a side. They want to box me in so bad that it's like I start getting, people get more and more aggressive with it, right? I think every case as it is, whether it's what's going on right now in
00:02:40
Speaker
Sport with transgender athletes with whatever it is I've got a different opinion and some of my stuff leans left Some of it leans right some of it leans in the middle, but I think that's what it should be I mean I think people are morons if you're if you need to go back to look into your party creed to say okay What should I think I'm team red they say this or that's what I am I got no time for you because you're not thinking about it you're programmed and you're told what to say because you're partying and
00:03:05
Speaker
That's why I've really struggled. I'm politically homeless. I don't have a party for that very reason. There's elements of parties, like a certain party that I like, and then I see something I'm like, oh, I don't like that. I can't support you. So that's kind of where I'm at. And it's just disappointing that in Australia and the Western world that you've got to be all into your team. It's not sport, in my opinion. I think it's very, very important issues that should be taken case by case.
The Shift from Religion to Politics
00:03:31
Speaker
Yeah, it is interesting. We had this conversation on this podcast with Konstantin Kissen and he basically talked about the way in which politics has become sport and you have to support your team and the good bits and the bad bits that go along with them, as opposed to just looking at issues on a case by case basis and saying, well, look, these are the issues that align with my values. These are the ones that don't and going from there. It is quite sad, actually, the way that's gone.
00:03:56
Speaker
And on the contrary, it's calling out your team when they, when they do something stupid, everyone makes mistakes. You should be able to, you know, we saw the last three years with the COVID stuff. It's like, there was a horrendous things put out there by certain parties and governments. And I can guarantee you there were people in that party that didn't agree with it, but they didn't want to say anything publicly. That's the time you go to use your voice. Why do you think people are less willing to call out their own side than perhaps they were, I know, 20 or 30 years ago?
00:04:22
Speaker
Because become religion. I'm not really religious. I don't frequent church on a weekly or regular basis. But I think I understand the need of what religion brought to community and to outside of people that say, oh, you believe in a fairy in the sky, whatever outside of that, I think the importance of religion was the community, the sense of being the weekly catch up with like minded people, having discussions about world issues, all that, right? We've seen it move away from that.
00:04:50
Speaker
And people, it's left a void in a lot of people's lives. I truly believe that. I think it's, I'm not saying people should go to church, but I'm just saying it's, it's, it's interesting to see how that's changed over the years where now it's gone to politics. That same mindset has gone to politics where it's, it's, it's very, very interesting. And I've noticed that over the last 10, 15 years that people are treating
00:05:12
Speaker
the political party, people treating all the rules of the last three years, it was like it was a religion, it was a cult. It was like, if you're not in our cult, you're an outsider, or you're this, or we're going to label you with this. And that's what religions that, like, that was the negative part of religions in the last century, right? It was like that, that was the knock. It's like you're discriminating against this other religion, because you're this religion where you're doing the same thing in the same kind of format, just with the political party or COVID policy or climate change policy or whatever it is, right? And that's why
00:05:42
Speaker
I think it's conical. And it's the very same people, mind you, that hate religion. I always laugh because it's like, we hate religion, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, well, you're treating your point of view as a religion and a cult, right? You're discriminating against other people, you're making fun of them. So it's just an observation that I've always laughed at over the last probably five, 10 years.
00:06:02
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I don't think it is a coincidence that the rise of woke progressive ideology has coincided with the decline in organized religion. That decline has led to a vacuum and I think kind of that vacuum has been filled with some pretty troubling stuff. The thing about religion as well, it heightens your emotional response to a particular issue. It's so deeply embedded in who you are. And that can be a good thing. It can also obviously be really bad thing.
00:06:30
Speaker
I noticed, for example, just putting out a tweet to promote this particular conversation.
Why Bogut Speaks Out
00:06:36
Speaker
A lot of people love you, as you know. There are a lot of people who will give you a lot of flack, and I noticed that in this tweet, this would be a fraction of what you'd experience on a day-to-day basis. Given that, why do you keep speaking your mind? What drives you to keep doing what you're doing regardless?
00:06:52
Speaker
I'm happy to give an opinion. I've always said I'm not always right, not always wrong. I think if we had more people kind of give an opinion and give their point of view on things, especially with what we're seeing today in different, different facets of, you know, social commentary and whatnot, I think we'd be in a better place. I guess it bothers me to an extent is I've lived around all these people
00:07:13
Speaker
that are online and in media mainstream media and social media that project this holier than thou attitude always the next whatever the next in thing is I'm going to promote it whether it's this or whether it's that
00:07:28
Speaker
I saw these people behind closed doors for the last 20 years and it really changed my view of all these people that were the do-gooders and we're all about humanity and we're all about bettering, bettering the earth and we're all about bettering this and bettering that and social harm. And then the complete opposite was that once the cameras are off and it really kind of, it really early on in my career, it broke my heart.
00:07:50
Speaker
Like I was really, you know, people say I'm a cynic to this day. Once I finally get out everything that I've seen, maybe I write a book one day or whatever, people understand like being around Hollywood and being around all that kind of stuff. You're just like, this is all a grift. It's all, it's all done for to be in that cool community group, to be in that elite way of thinking, to keep my TV contract, to keep my radio contract.
00:08:13
Speaker
I just never was going to be born and look hypocritical maybe because I've got enough finances for my playing career where I don't need to rely on a paycheck, but I'm in a position where I can call all that out. I can't be canceled or penalized for it financially. I can't lose my job.
00:08:27
Speaker
And I'm in a unique position, so I understand that. I understand to an extent why people, you know, at times are too scared to say anything, to jeopardize putting food on the table. But there's going to come a point in time, as we've seen in human history, where you're going to have to not just toe the line, you're going to have to step over it and use your voice. Otherwise, I'm more worried about my kids and my grandkids than myself. That's what I'm worried about. What's the future going to be like for them? If this is a craziness going on now,
00:08:50
Speaker
and this is allowed to continue to fester, where are we at in 30, 40 years? That's probably a world none of us want to live in. Yeah, it's a very powerful observation. You've also made the point that you do have a platform now where you are in some respects uncancellable, which is fantastic. And I asked this question of several people on this podcast because several of them have been incredibly successful and through the courage of their convictions and their success, they've got themselves to that position where they are in a respect uncancellable.
00:09:19
Speaker
As you know, a lot of people listening to this podcast will be listening on their way to the office where if they say the things that you say, they'll probably get fired. What practical advice do you have to those types of people who may hold the similar beliefs to you, who may just have this feeling that you had of incredible frustration, but they're afraid if they speak their mind, they'll be shamed, they'll be cancelled, they'll be fired?
00:09:41
Speaker
Well, if you're fired first and foremost, there is a form of somewhat, it's a form of discrimination. So I think there'd be some legal advice that you could probably get if you were fired for a view or a political view or being against something that's mainstream and your workplace has fired you because of it. That by definition is what, that's what the worksters used to fight for, was those people to have that opinion because you are the minority.
00:10:04
Speaker
But I mean, you hear, like people will whisper these things. Like people will still talk about it at work. So it's, it's, my whole thing is if that's your belief, as long as you're not hurting or harming anyone or inciting violence, I think you should be allowed to have your belief. Now there's certain people that are protected to have their beliefs. If there's certain religions or part of certain, you know, groups, um, I call the rainbow mafia, one of them, like you're going to have certain beliefs and voice them publicly and no one's going to say anything. You can be actually very aggressive with your beliefs.
00:10:33
Speaker
But if you're on the contrary to that, you're going to get shunned. And I think everyone should be allowed to have their own beliefs, like I said, as long as you're not condoning violence or discrimination or you're saying,
00:10:45
Speaker
Hey, I run a cafe and I don't allow your kind in here. Well, that's, you know, like you should be, you should, you should conflict for that. But if you just have a belief that on certain different topical issues that are not mainstream and your contra that this whole cancellation things, just what people don't understand with cancellation is going to come for you eventually. Like eventually you're going to, you're going to hit a point in, in the future where you're, you're disagreeing with the government or you're disagreeing with something that's.
00:11:10
Speaker
whatever the hot topic issue is of the day, you're going to get cancelled. That's what I don't understand. It's going to come full circle eventually. It's just a matter of time. And that's what you try to explain to people. So I'm strongly against cancellation. People still try to cancel me. It's quite funny. I still have people, email sponsors of mine and people that I've worked with and why do you work with him or why do you do this or why do you do that?
00:11:30
Speaker
People that have met me and sat down with me and had coffee with me and lunch, and I have no problems with, they know what you see is what you get. I'm big on honesty, I'm big on trust, I'm big on all that kind of stuff. And I've had no issues. Like my human interaction on a daily basis in person, I rarely have an issue. But on social media, people can have 10 or 15 different accounts and try to troll. It's a different story, but in public, funnily enough, it's heavily, heavily positive.
Bogut's Working-Class Roots
00:11:59
Speaker
Have your views ever cost you sponsorship dollars? 100%. Yeah. I've dealt with numerous companies where, you know, I've spoken to people about potential sponsorships or vice versa. They've reached out to me and then I know for a fact that someone's done an internet search and seen some things and like, oh, yeah, and then it just goes cold and there's not really a reason. So that's definitely happened.
00:12:22
Speaker
Um, like I said, there's been people that have reached out to sponsors to try and might have them work with me. And thankfully the people I work with and the sponsors I work with are pretty good, but it's definitely, definitely happened no doubt, especially mainstream media wise. I lost out on a lot of opportunities to do stuff in the mainstream media because of it, but I don't care. It's just like, because they know that, you know, they're scared that if they hire me or.
00:12:42
Speaker
I go on a show and I say something that isn't scripted like most of them speak on these daily talk shows and whatever. I don't go off the script. I go off living on three different continents at different parts of my life. I go on experience of everything that I've been through in my life as a young child of a migrant family growing up in rough suburbs. I've experienced that firsthand. I'll talk about it and it's taboo. You can't say that. So I'm not that guy. I'll say it and I'll live with the consequences.
00:13:07
Speaker
How has that upbringing influenced your personality today and the way that you approach those issues today? A fair bit. Like I've lived in, not even that, I've lived in Blue Collar, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I've lived in, you know, Super Left, California. I lived for a number of months in Croatia. I had a property over there. There's a little bit over there in the summers and the off seasons and then obviously growing up in a pretty rough suburb in Melbourne.
00:13:32
Speaker
I mean, I've experienced all different walks of life and different people, but generally I relate more to the working class, everyday people, in my opinion. Some people say, oh yeah, you got money, what do you mean working class? Well, most of my friends and family are middle class people that have own businesses that weren't always middle class. And I have a high respect for people that build themselves out of one economic box to the next. I really respect those people because I know how hard it was for my father to do so.
00:13:59
Speaker
I mean, my journey from, you know, just as a young child, like catching the bus to, from Devon Hills to Dandenong to go to high school was, was a, was a journey in itself, you know, getting on there's drug addicts, there's our bus had the, the, the blue lights on them. So you couldn't find your veins. Like, you know, it was, you kind of had to know, I don't want to get off at this stop because there's a dude that's probably higher on ice. So I'm going to get the next stop off or, Hey, some, some, some guys are not looking right, sat near me, I'm going to move. Like it's just.
00:14:26
Speaker
I had my head on a swivel from probably which wasn't a good thing at 12-13 because you're young and you're not fully developed but had my head on a swivel and was very observant about my surroundings at a very young age and I took that in when I lived in different countries and I've taken bits and pieces of it to
00:14:42
Speaker
Form the opinions I have on different things, whether people disagree or agree. And I find it funny that the most people that are against what I say or don't agree with what I say are people that have lived in their inner city bubble in Melbourne or Sydney or they're in a city for their whole life. They've not traveled the world. They've not experienced different cultures or creeds other than going to their local restaurant.
00:15:02
Speaker
of a different nationality. That's as bad as far as I go. So I think I'm pretty well spoken to be able to speak on these issues, even though I don't have a degree in sociology or social science or whatever you want to call it.
00:15:13
Speaker
I think it's important that people are speaking out for that traditional working class demographic because I think they feel that they've been left behind. The Labor Party in Australia or the Democrats in the US 30 or 40 years ago, that was their core constituency. That was who they represented. As they've moved into more of this progressive politics realm, to your point, the inner city elites,
00:15:35
Speaker
that group doesn't particularly have someone who is speaking for them as much anymore. That's probably why they are looking to people like the Donald Trump's of this world or the Boris Johnson's of this world in the UK. They don't really have a home in the political class anymore. And that's, that's led some really kind of, I think, troubling outcomes. Yeah, I think people are just gone with what I think the reason why I got like Trump got in with people, like you said, they're so politically homeless. I don't think a lot of the people that voted for Trump agreed with him. I just, I just think they voted for him because it was an FU to the establishment.
00:16:06
Speaker
Got some wild guy that's just starting off all this crazy stuff and saying, you know, he's tweeting at two in the morning. Can't be any worse than what we've had in the last 50 years. You know, so I think it was that mentality. And, you know, we were, you know, my family was a Labor family early on in their journey. You know, you come to Australia, Labor's probably helps.
00:16:24
Speaker
more at least financially to an extent and then they do help migrants until they become self-sufficient and that's what my father learned very quickly. He learned as soon as he became self-sufficient and was working 50, 60, 70 hours a week sometimes from his own business, he was labored till he got his tax bill and then realized that his taxes were going to sometimes people that don't want to work.
00:16:46
Speaker
that don't want to put the time in. Now, I've moved my position on this. I used to be a staunch pull yourself up by your bootstraps kind of guy, where everyone should be able to work. What's the big issue? I really do think I've moved off that to where I think there is a small percentage of people that just have shit luck and have a rough go at it, whether migrants or local Australians that are just
00:17:09
Speaker
life is on the dole or just struggling to get jobs or weren't educated, bad family environment growing up, domestic violence. I've moved off that now where I think there is a portion of people that really are hard done by and need to be helped, but I think there's a greater number that don't. I think there's a greater number that are manipulating the system and that's where you need to differentiate and draw the line. I think having the dole and benefits and all that for people that are hard done by, I totally agree with it. What we need to weed out is there's people that can definitely go and get a job and help the economy and they just don't want it because it's easier to do it the other way.
00:17:39
Speaker
It's interesting to see how it's shifted, but you know, it's, what do they say? It's most, most kids coming out of school and university are generally more towards the left. And then once they start running their own business or earning a living, which is becoming actually rarer by the day.
00:17:52
Speaker
But those people end up realizing why are my taxes going towards things that aren't really helping my business and helping me. And I'm putting in 60, 70 hours and someone's not even trying to work and they get the salary. So that's where I differentiate it now, I think. It's the old Churchill line. If you're a conservative at 20, you've got no heart. If you're a liberal at 40, you've got no brain.
00:18:13
Speaker
We'll get back to that and I think particularly get back to maybe the difference between the US and Australia in that regard because you've got a pretty unique insight into how the countries compare.
Should Sports Be an Escape from Politics?
00:18:24
Speaker
I want to go back to something you said just a bit earlier, which is really interesting. And that is that gap between how many people in, I guess, elite institutions, the image that they convey, the virtue signaling, and then how they actually behave behind closed doors. And I think that's a fascinating insight. And I want to make it real for listeners and maybe a good example potentially.
00:18:47
Speaker
If I take you back to 2016, if my research is correct, you've just moved to Dallas to play with the Mavericks when Colin Kaepernick takes a knee during the anthem of an NFL game. This pulls rocket fuel over the whole question of should politics be part of sport, particularly in the US, but it then comes to Australia as well. Can you take us into the Mavericks locker room at the time?
00:19:11
Speaker
What were the players saying about it? How was the club, the coach, you personally, how was the team trying to navigate this issue? At the time, Mark Cuban was owner of the Dallas Mavs. He's a heavy pro troops. So the Mavs do a lot of stuff with having veterans and people that have served and have disabilities, deficiencies because of that. They come to the games for free. They have a section.
00:19:37
Speaker
So I believe he was one of the few owners that came out and basically told the team, we're not kneeling, like you're standing for the anthem. I wasn't there when he said that, but I believe that was the manager. It wasn't really discussed in Dallas. And I think the players knew like you're in Texas, like, you know, these were flying Kelly in New York and Chicago, but not in Texas. So it was interesting. I didn't really have too much of an into that, but
00:20:02
Speaker
Yeah. Look, I'm more on the whole politics should stay out of sport to an extent. Like I think if a player's in their own time away from their club wants to go and promote whatever social political call, no problem with it. Whatever whatsoever. Just spend hours, do PSA on your own time. No problem with it whatsoever.
00:20:20
Speaker
I think where I draw the line is like if you're doing a post-game interview about the game and you start spouting about different political issues, that's where I draw the line. And why? Because I think we need a time to disconnect from what's going on in the world. And that was sport, was the escape for a lot of people, both mentally and
00:20:36
Speaker
get away and we all hear the crap going on Monday to Friday about politics and social issues and wars. Saturday, Sunday, let me just decompress and get away for two or three hours. And I think that's important. People will say, well, they should bring athletes in a privileged position to bring these conversations to light. Yeah. Do it in your own time though. Like don't do it during the actual broadcast of the game. That's, that's why I draw the line. So I think it should be a balance, but it's
00:21:01
Speaker
The US was an interesting time, especially the last five or six years. And I wasn't part of the NBA during the mandates. I wasn't part of the NBA during the BLM stuff. And I believe I would have stood for the anthem if I was playing. Not out of disrespect to anybody, but out of respect for a country that I lived most of my life, a country that gave me my wealth, a country that gave me my opportunity. I just felt like, even though I'm not American, that I can't
00:21:26
Speaker
stand down on a country's anthem that gave me my life. It didn't make sense to me. If I was playing at that time, I would have got a lot of flack for it and I probably would have lived with it and would have been called racist and this and that. I would have lived with it like, yeah, I respect America enough for what it's given me. Do I agree with everything and the way America goes about things politically and socially? Definitely not. There's a lot of things that I don't like about the way they go about life as most human beings would have about any country. But I'd show enough respect and I was taught whether you're in
00:21:56
Speaker
Australia or America or Croatia or China, you stand for that country's national anthem. That's a sign of respect. And I think that as you start to lose those kinds of respects, society goes down the gurgle. It's a hypothetical, so you can't say for sure. But let's say you are playing for Golden State Warriors at that time, very liberal city, and you do choose to stand for the anthem. And I imagine there would potentially be other players on the team that would not be doing that. How do you think that would play out in the locker room with the other players?
00:22:23
Speaker
It'd be interesting. I mean, look, I had a lot of teammates that you could have, not a lot, sorry. I had a small number of teammates that I was friends with that you could have conversations with. Harrison Barnes was still one of my, one of my greatest, most favorite teammates to this day. Cause we could have passionate discussions about race, about this, about that, without taking it personally and actually hearing, like I learned some things from him. Like a prime example was we were speaking about racism one day.
00:22:50
Speaker
I was speaking with Harrison and I said, look man, no one in this locker room would have any idea, but I faced racism in Australia. What do you mean? I said, look, I'm Eastern European. There was a word called Woggin in Australia. I copped that every other day at school. My father copped it even worse.
00:23:05
Speaker
So like, I understand, you know, where you're coming from as a black man in America. And he was like, Oh man, that's really strange to hear. I didn't even think that, you know, I just thought white Australian, white Australian. So he learned that. But then he said to me, yeah, but those are difference with you is they can't, you know, people can't really tell you that until, until you speak, they can tell that I'm black because of my face, because of my skin color. And I was like, wow, that's actually a different point of view that
00:23:29
Speaker
I never thought about it that way, you know, you can face, you can just face racism immediately by someone looking at you because your skin color so like, that's a prime example of a conversation that we had. That was awesome because we both learned something we both learned and but you couldn't have that conversation in an open forum because I had teammates tell me like,
00:23:46
Speaker
I remember during the Clippers series, this was during Donald Sterling. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but Donald Sterling was the owner of the Clippers. He got recorded saying some racist stuff secretly recorded by a girlfriend of his or whatever. It got leaked. This was during our playoff series against him when it was the Warriors.
00:24:04
Speaker
And there was talks about what's the NBA going to do? Are they going to suspend him? Are they going to take the team off him? And our team was saying, if he doesn't lose his team, they're going to, we're not going to play, if it was game five, we're just going to walk out and then boycott the game. Anyhow, that morning of the NBA announced, the morning of the game, the NBA announced, we're going to, we're going to squat. We're going to, he's banned. We're banning him. He's going to, we're going to force him to sell the team. I still had a few teammates saying, we're still going to boycott. And I said, like,
00:24:31
Speaker
You've got the result you wanted. He's losing his team. What more do you want than that? You wouldn't understand. Through that hole, you wouldn't understand racism. You've never dealt with it. I just thought that was ignorant because number one, the people that were saying in the locker room never spoke to me about my journey and knowing that.
00:24:48
Speaker
And number two was like, Oh, cause I'm like, I've never experienced pro racism. Well, hang on a second. So that's why those conversations with like a house of bars were really important to me. But to turn to your question, it is long winded. Yeah. It wouldn't have went down with some of the guys in locker rooms. Unfortunately, we'll just follow the mantra of what's on CNN or Fox or this or that. I'll follow that mantra.
Athletes and Climate Activism
00:25:07
Speaker
Oh, you don't stand racist.
00:25:10
Speaker
And you just be like, well, no, actually, no, hang on. Like I'm a migrant, I'm a green card holder. I respect your country. Do you want to have a conversation? No, no, no conversation. You're racist. So with those kinds of people, you just got to let it lie where it is. And I hold my head up high knowing that I made certain decisions based on what I did because I thought it was the right decision at the time.
00:25:29
Speaker
And unfortunately, debate is becoming less and less accepted across, not just sport, but across society. You mentioned that particularly when it comes to political issues in sport, there is a bit of a fine line there for you. So making it practical, a couple of examples from Australia that you'd be aware of. First one, someone like a Pat Cummins, captain of the Australian cricket team.
00:25:53
Speaker
He's long had a very strong position on climate change activism, aside from say whether or not that's the right thing for him to do. Do you think that's a net positive or a net negative for his brand to be so vocal on issues like this? I think it's a net positive for his brand.
00:26:10
Speaker
Because I think we've seen all these corporations, all the banks, all the fast food industry, they love this stuff. And they're all pushing it the same way. So they love that. And he has every right to expose, to expose his views and say, I'm pro this, I'm pro that, no problem with it. It is the mainstream side. So like you said, it's a pretty easy fence to sit on.
00:26:29
Speaker
An example would be, I believe he was sponsored by one of the- Linter Energy. Linter Energy. Took a bunch of money, did adverts for him, and then all of a sudden became enlightened by climate change, or give that money back. Or have some sort of, buy a mirror. You're a sportsman that's on a plane every other day.
00:26:48
Speaker
You're preaching to people about pollution and you're on a plane every day, you're in hotels, you're eating fast food out of boxes. I understand that. I'm going to preach to people about climate change. We're on a charter jet 50 nights a year. I've seen the amount of waste that goes on with food. We're using buses to get to arenas. I'm going to go preach to an average schmoe that takes one flight a year. Hey, mate, don't take that holiday overseas because it hurts the climate. Please.
00:27:14
Speaker
that's where the hypocrisy of it becomes too high for me to bear and I just I just tune those people out because I'm just like it's like the the summits up in Switzerland you know and there's like what thousands of private jets and helicopters flying in what you can't all charter a jet together I think convenience is you by five hours but you want to save the earth right that's why I just I just switch off I don't I don't hear anything you have to say after that because I'm like you're if you're not living the life you're preaching
00:27:40
Speaker
I got nothing, I got nothing for you. You know, it's like saying, oh, you need to eat a healthy diet and you, and your way, this is in fact shaming, but you, you know, you're severely overweight and you eat McDonald's, but you're telling me to eat a healthy diet. Like, hang on a second. Or, you know, Hey, don't go pollute the earth and then you're driving a Mac 10 truck. Like can't do it. So, and that's, that's where we're at in a society, but Cummins would definitely be reaping benefits from having that position in society because it's the accepted or welling and okay position by the state or the government. Yep.
00:28:08
Speaker
Absolutely. To clarify, there were two issues going on there with Cummins. So I think the sponsorship you were referring to was either Land Rover or one of those car companies that he was taking a fair bit of money from, which is a gas guzzling car, I think it's Land Rover, and that money wasn't going back to the company for sure. And then separately, Alinter Energy had a sponsorship agreement or a potential sponsorship agreement with Cricket Australia, which was then pulled potentially, and we don't know this, but potentially
00:28:37
Speaker
as a result of pack Cummins position. And it was similar to another study around this, which was nipple Australia for.
00:28:46
Speaker
international listeners. Gina Reinhardt is one of Australia's wealthiest people. She threw about $15 million as a lifeline to Netball Australia, which she then subsequently pulled after an Indigenous player, Danelle Williams, refused to wear a singlet with Reinhardt's company logo on it. It's a mining company.
00:29:08
Speaker
Do you think on principle current sports stars should be speaking out on these activities if it costs the team sponsorship money like that? As a speaker on this pretty frankly team in ownership group of the Sydney Kings are a minority stake holding the Sydney Kings. Australia especially is very hard to get sponsorships. It's a very competitive market. Australia per capita has
00:29:31
Speaker
be up there in the world as far as sporting leagues and professional sporting clubs. Per capita would be about above the average. As basketball competing with cricket, with netball, with AFL, with NRL, with this, with that, with that, with this, with Union. You look at a sport like netball that has struggled financially the last decade. Very, very
00:29:52
Speaker
poorly managed at times, maybe financially, but just struggled, right? You get a deal like that. And it just goes over the line because the reasoning was, it wasn't because of the mining company. The reasoning was, I think Reinhardt's mother, father had made some investments back in the, what was it, 50s, 60s, 70s? A long time ago, yeah.
00:30:12
Speaker
long time ago, right? And I think that the thing was, well, Reinhardt needs to put out a statement, just being against those. And it's like, well, number one, number two, like she's given $15 million. I'm pretty sure she's pretty pro sport. I also know for a fact that she's done a lot for indigenous causes. So maybe that is her
00:30:32
Speaker
somewhat sorry about family history or whatever, right? But it's not her responsibility. And it's not my responsibility that a friend, brother, cousin, auntie, uncle said something stupid. I don't get tainted with that brush. That's them. Like, you know, we got to separate that, right? Everyone says silly things along the line.
00:30:51
Speaker
The purse someone that's connected to him shouldn't be, you know responsible to that extent. So I thought that was really really interesting, but I scratch my head just the fact that they turn down that money and then obviously the good old Victorian government is just got a.
00:31:04
Speaker
somehow war chest of money that now we're seeing ramifications of to this day. Land taxes going up again. Apparently they're taking money away from the TAC. So those plot holes in your roads, country Victorians, they're going to get bigger and bigger. You might want to build a house next to them because it'll be a pool one day. Victoria is taking over the sponsorship for those overseas wondering. They've come in and said, we'll be the white knight. We'll give them that ball 15 million. This will be seen as a great social cause. Well, it's like, well, number one, it's not free money. It's Victorian money.
00:31:32
Speaker
Victorians had a vote where that money should go? No. And will this hinder, further hinder their kids and their grandkids? Yes. Because the debt's going to be through the ceiling continuously. And this isn't a shot at Metball. I mean, but at the same time, I think it was not, not a very smart play by them. Now on the flip side, if it was something completely detrimental, like, you know, if it was some sort of brand that has really
00:31:55
Speaker
why we're on one side of the political spectrum about certain things, you can kind of understand players being asked and pushing back, but this wasn't that, this wasn't even close to that and it went astray. Yeah, I've got the state of Victoria on my list of questions to ask you about and we will get there, but first,
00:32:14
Speaker
You are a part owner of the, of the Sydney Kings. So the voice debate is something that you have had to grapple
Political Stances in Sports Organizations
00:32:21
Speaker
with. I imagine with, with the other owners, the AFL has come out supporting the voice. The OSC has just this morning. I don't know if you saw the NRL has formally come out supporting the voice. What has the conversations been at the Sydney Kings and what position do you take on this, on this issue? We haven't had any conversations about it. I'm sure I think the NBA was pro. I'm pretty sure. I just think it's vote for who you want to vote for.
00:32:44
Speaker
I don't think us as sporting clubs should be influencing a referendum or debate or political bodies. Now, my whole thing is, as a league, you're the AFL, right?
00:32:57
Speaker
Have you polled every player in your league, whether they're yes or no? Confidentially, right? Because if you do this publicly, everyone's going to say yes. Do you really think everyone in the AFL is yes? Of course not. So this is my point. It's like, it's like a shaming way of pushing this, whether you're a yes or no. Well, you know, there's people in the organization, whether they're coaches, players, whatever that are, I'm probably not for it. I don't agree with it. Just get to say it. But then the AFL comes out and says, we're a yes organization.
00:33:24
Speaker
That's ridiculous, in my opinion. I think keep that separate. Like, if you want to vote your certain way, keep, you know, go that certain way. But people have relevant gripes with the voice that I agree with. And there's yeses and there's noes, and there's parts of it that I agree with both. Like, okay, I agree with the yes because of this, but then I see the yes is this as well. And I'm like, oh, it's a bit much. And then, you know, the opposite on the other side. But I think the organization is going to stay away from that. That's my position. I'm probably in the minority of NBL team owners.
00:33:54
Speaker
I was in the minority on the MBL rainbow rounds.
00:33:57
Speaker
I wasn't for it because I knew what was going to happen. I knew exactly what I thought was going to happen to happen. There were players that didn't want to wear it, cans most notably, and it created a shit storm of media attention for the NBL and cans. And the league didn't know that, was trying to put band-aids on it and put spot fires out here and there. And I'm like, well, did the NBL and the Play Association poll the players about this beforehand, which I heavily influenced them to do on an anonymous poll?
00:34:24
Speaker
didn't do it. Oh, no, everyone's for it. No, no, it's impossible. Not everyone's for it. I know for a fact, because people have reached out to me, there's people of certain religions, there's people of migrants from overseas communities that weren't for it. Now, if you want to call them bigots or whatever, that's separate.
00:34:40
Speaker
But I'm not for those rounds because I think they divide people. Even the majority of mainstream media says everyone's for it. It's not the case. And I just think you need to keep that away from sport, especially AFL. I mean, the AFL has a bloody round for having a pin drop these days. It's nonsensical in my opinion. You have a round for everything under the sun. I just kind of, you know, I tune out from all that stuff. Yeah. And look, the other uncomfortable thing is that there can be an assumption that
00:35:08
Speaker
there isn't really a good faith reason to do some of this stuff. It's a branding exercise. It is a way to basically be perceived to be virtuous and therefore to be able to flog jerseys or singlets that have a particular brand for that particular round, which is a concern. I wanna get your thoughts on a few of the hot button kind of issues that you've been talking about recently. Before we do, if you are enjoying Andrew's no BS approach, you will love the similarly straight talking Spectator Australia.
00:35:38
Speaker
We've covered all the big politics in sports, controversies in recent times, and we will continue to do so. Go to spectator.com.au forward slash join. Digital subscription is $16.99 a month with one month free when you sign up.
Controversies in Gender and Sports
00:35:52
Speaker
Hot button issue of the moment is trans athletes in sport. You've been an outspoken critic of biological men competing in women's sport.
00:36:00
Speaker
What do you say to someone like, I saw this on Twitter the other day, what do you say to someone like Peter Fitzsimons who says, this is an American culture war issue. Not a problem in Australia. This is a Sky News spectator beat up. How do you respond to that sort of argument? A wedding start. I mean, it's
00:36:20
Speaker
The amount of people that I speak to on a daily basis, just in my daily ongoing going to the physio, you know, go in here, go in there, I'll get to that a little bit later. But first off, the case that I brought forward, the case of the man that was going to play for the Kewesyth Cobras as a female, I had people reaching out to me from NBL one, which is the minor league of the NBL, the sub league that were like, Hey, where are this?
00:36:39
Speaker
blah blah blah this is happening and i was like no ways can be happening like you know what's what's the process what's this once they started to tell me the process of how it went down i was disgusted they gaslit these female athletes they put the the the minority of girls that were okay with it on the media pedestal to pull messaging out
00:36:58
Speaker
But before all that, this was ongoing, right? And it was about 10, 10, it was about two weeks before the season, they told all the coaches on a Zoom call, hey, this is happening. It's been decided. We're done, right? Nothing's been made in the media. So I got ahold of it. I put a tweet out. It blew up, which was good. And then all of a sudden, oh, yeah, we're still kind of deciding. We don't know. So what their plan was was to push this through.
00:37:25
Speaker
The start of the season was two weeks away, have it happen, have the athlete in question play, and then be like, oh, it's already happened. What's the big deal? See, nothing happened. Because I put it out there, shit at the fan, essentially, and then the girls had to be met with and whatnot. So much so, the basketball Australia overtook and oversaw the process and deemed the athlete ineligible.
00:37:48
Speaker
That was a case in a semi-professional sporting league and I was able to get enough attention on, the more and more people I speak to, this is happening all over Australia. This isn't just a one-off case. This is happening in recreational third division netball in your local association, to rugby leagues, to this and that. And I've spoken to a lot of people, I'm still getting an influx of emails and messages on social media about people sending in photos and people's kids being hurt by males playing female sports.
00:38:15
Speaker
You know, I'm not going to name where I go, but secretary at a, at a medical clinic that I go to, I get a lot of people coming up and you say, and thank you for your voice, especially mums and grandmothers said my nephew, his fiance plays in NRL W.
00:38:31
Speaker
and got her cheekbone and nose broken by a transitioned big Islander man who's now a woman the other week. Not in the media, not known. Cheekbone and nose broken in a tackle. And this, these conversations that I have, people think this, you know, you're making stuff up, you're inflaming. This is everywhere, man. And a lot of the pro leagues now are going to have policies or they're going to have a board of
00:38:56
Speaker
I laughed at basketball Australia that a board of experts sit on whether this male should play in the female league and I'm like, I can be the expert. It took me about five seconds to figure out yes or no. But anyway, but these lower leagues and your local rep league or your local this league, there's no policies. You can literally just rock up and be like,
00:39:19
Speaker
Yeah, I've got a beard. Yeah, I'm seven foot. I'm 120 kilos, but I feel like a woman today. I want to play in that league. Nothing you can do about it. This isn't, you know, Peter Simon saying it's not, it's an American thing. It's not, this is happening at a lot of our local sports. Soccer is the other one, New South Wales, and I believe it's Riley Dennis is the name. A well-known transgender, transgender activist, male playing in the female league. A leading goal scorer, I believe in the New South Wales league. The athlete is in the football in New South Wales instead of
00:39:49
Speaker
meeting what they've done just they've put an unknown player's name as leading goal scorer it's unknown because they know they know what's good so but they've showed their guilt just by doing that why have you given the name because you've got a male you've got a male leading your female goal kicking right and it's just
00:40:07
Speaker
The more and more you look, the more and more people you talk to, even though this isn't mainstream because the media don't want to touch it. It's everywhere, man. It is every sport all over Australia. And unless parents stand up and say enough, it's good for me to put out a case that got media attention. I can't do that for all of them. And people will ask, well, what's your advice to me if my daughter's playing under 18s with a male?
00:40:30
Speaker
I would say if the girls don't want to play, show up to all your games, show up to your track meet, show up to your 100 meter race. As soon as the gun goes off, don't run. As soon as the ball gets thrown up, don't move.
00:40:43
Speaker
We're not going to play under these circumstances. And if you don't do this, the sanctity of female sports is going to go down the gurgler. And what females and even feminists have fought for so long is female-only spaces, female-only sports, female-only communities. I've got no problem with that. That's great. You know, you need that.
00:41:02
Speaker
Outside of thinking you're going to become a professional in sport, which is very rare, the journey that young athletes, both male and female, take as kids is very important to your afterlife and your adult life, right? Like you learn about team bonding, you learn about
00:41:17
Speaker
playing sports with people you despise. You're on a team with someone you don't like their personality, but hey, I've got to work with you. You're on my team. All these things are important. So we want young girls playing sport. What we're seeing now is there's girls pulling out of sports. There's parents pulling their young daughters out of sports because they don't want to play against men. And that's fair enough. And that's, that's what I'm standing up for. If you want to play sport as a transgender athlete, let's make a third category. You got male, female, other than everything else.
00:41:43
Speaker
That's you're playing that sport and get your exercise, be healthy, learn team building, but you shouldn't take over something that's been a long-standing tradition, which is female categorized sports.
00:41:55
Speaker
Yeah, I think hard to put a number on it, but the vast, vast majority of people have a common sense approach to this issue. And they go, if there is a biological man playing a rugby league game against women, that is dangerous. Why do you think you mentioned there are a lot of leagues that either don't have a policy or alternatively, some of them are just digging in and saying, we're going to continue to allow this.
00:42:20
Speaker
Why do you think they are doing that? I think because it's the mainstream view, but it's not. This is the mirage in the desert. It's not the mainstream view. It's the mainstream media view of what we're told every day, but it's not the everyday people's view. And like you said, it's an overwhelming majority of people that are like, no, I don't want this. And then we go down to the bait of puberty blockers. We go down the bait of hormone blockers on, okay, yeah, he transitioned at 18. He's been on testosterone blockers for
00:42:49
Speaker
for 10 years, he's 28, why can't he play? Well, he's got the bone density of a male until he was 18 and the muscle, like it's not as easy as that. And even outside of that, I just think, no, it doesn't matter when you transition to me, no. Have a third category and we go for our life. And you've got three categories of sport and everyone's happy. You've got male, but it's not about that. It's they want to be in female sports. Why don't we see females transitioning to male sports?
00:43:13
Speaker
We don't, we don't see that very often, do we? We don't see, I don't know, I could be wrong. I mean, you're listening to this, let me know, am I wrong? It's always, it's always male and female. And you look at the swimming with Mia Thomas, Aliyah Thomas, sorry, you know, 300th in the NCAA, you know, it goes over to become a female and lapping girls for first place, you know, like the, like he's the,
00:43:39
Speaker
He's done swimming and they're still, they're still swimming. There's still two laps left for the girls to get second place. And you're like, you know, they find social media accounts of maybe what I believe historical social media accounts of certain athletes that like to dress as women back in the day as a kink and all that. It's just like, I don't care what the motivations are. Have a third category. We move on. Like I said, people will say, I transfer because this don't care. I see someone that's transgender in the street.
00:44:05
Speaker
Good morning. How are you going? Have a nice day. That's it. I'm moving on with my day. I'm not shunting them. I'm not abusing them, whatever. But if you want to go into female sports, yeah, I'm going to fight. I'm going to fight you. And I'm going to voice my concerns against it.
00:44:17
Speaker
Yeah. Well, the, the really worrying thing is that this ideology is seeping into children's sport specifically.
Gender Identity in Sports Registration
00:44:24
Speaker
You talked about this, there was a viral tweet relatively recently, you signed up your six year old boy for a soccer team. One of the questions was, what is his gender? What is the gender? I guess. And the options were male, female, non-binary dash gender fluid or gender, not sufficiently represented for a six year old sporting team.
00:44:45
Speaker
Football Australia responded to you calling this out on Twitter by saying that the form represented the game's inclusivity and diversiveness. Your response to Football Australia.
00:44:56
Speaker
I mean, the other response I got was, are they supposed to make a different web form for all age groups? Well, how hard would it be that if you click six, it doesn't show up and all that stuff. It shows up once you click over 18 or your gender. How many is there these days? I've lost count, but they all show up. If you click over 18. Football, New South Wales is trying to hide behind the whole inclusive hashtag, but not for it. Like a child can't smoke, a child can't get a tattoo.
00:45:21
Speaker
Consensual sexual relations at that age frowned upon, obviously, for obvious reasons, you know, disgusting by that, by that metric. And, but, you know, you can appease a child that thinks, you know, they want to be a different gender. Like, I mean, my child, my child, I got four and a six year old and they, we have different, um, superhero suits with border and costumes. When they put on the suit, they actually think that they are that character.
00:45:45
Speaker
Like my son puts on a Hulk suit at four. He thinks he's Hulk. He's walking around smashing stuff. Am I going to then appease and say for the rest of his life, he's Hulk? Like, no. So that's my pushback on that. My problem is with these, you know, football, New South Wales, huge government funding, like most sporting bodies that have to toe the line is it's the normalization of this. We can't allow like, this is, I'm not, I'm not allowing this to be normalized. So are you triggered by a web form? Like, no, I'm showing people how stupid the world's gone by.
00:46:13
Speaker
having to list agendas for a six year old child that just wants to play soccer. Yes, I feel performing and that's why I thought it was stupid. So where do you draw the line? But I just want, I'm not going to stand for this being normalized. Cause it's not, it's not, we're not, we're not doing this with children. You look at, you know, the studies and, and, and cases now that are starting to come out with people who are now adults that were transitioned at young ages. They're not, they're not glowing of, of transitioning. Are they like, you know, these, these feel bad for these kids. And a lot of them are.
00:46:40
Speaker
fall under the spell of their parents' ideology. Let's be serious. It's the parents. You know, it's like having a vegan cat. The cat's not vegan. They're only vegan. It's not a cat or a vegan dog. It's the adult in the room that's doing that. And to do that to a child, cases of gender dysphoria, we all know, many kids go through it. Look, here's something for you viewers. As a young child, I used to watch my mother get changed to go to work or get ready to go to work every morning.
00:47:06
Speaker
to go and work for my father. So when I was three, four, five years old and I'd go along with him, we couldn't afford a babysitter. So what did I see? I saw my mum putting lipstick, makeup, high heels on. What did I do one day? I went and put on lipstick to copy my mum. I tried on her high heel shoes. So by that metric these days, they say, oh, little Andrew wants to be Andrea. Are you serious?
00:47:26
Speaker
And where are the days of tomboys and tomb girls gone? Are they just out of the window? I had heaps of female friends that would play basketball with us, like kick our ass sometimes at our age. Like, you know, and, you know, guys, people make jokes, oh, she wants to be a man, this, that. They're happily married with kids now, right? So we're going down this path of appeasing, you know, some, some young children who have these, these illusions of who they are at that certain time. I mean, that's a very dangerous path to go down.
00:47:52
Speaker
Yeah, well, you mentioned that you're calling out how stupid the world has gone. The thing which I am taken aback by is just how quickly this has happened. You know, this is stuff which 99% of the population would have said is just outrageous 10 years ago. And you'd certainly never would have heard this stuff in mainstream conversation. And now we're talking about all the day. How has this happened so quickly is my question.
00:48:13
Speaker
Has it happened quickly though? I think it's happened quietly. I think it's been going on for 10 odd years. You look at the institutions and schools and universities, Victoria famously the safe schools program. That was what 18 years ago now it's been renamed as something else. You got the DEI policies all around the world, diversity, what is it? Diversity, equality, inclusion, or whatever it is, equity. Equity. Yeah, equity. Sorry. You know, this has slowly been happening. The issue
00:48:41
Speaker
The issue I've got is we've got to, we've got to let the working class know what's happening because my parents had no idea what I was doing in school. They were working from, you know, seven till seven, get home dinner. Good night. Then maybe you hang out a little bit on the weekend. If they're not doing chores around the house or fixing the house up, maybe you go to sport and that's it. You don't really have that. So most working class people can't really, that's why I influence, I tell parents all the time, talk to your kids.
00:49:06
Speaker
pick them up from school and ask them questions about, don't just say, how was your day? Good. Cause kids are like my son, how's your day? Good. No, you got to ask prodding questions. Hey, what did you like about today? What did you learn today at school? What did you not like? Like.
00:49:18
Speaker
What did you think was strange? What was funny? Did you, you know, prod them and make sure that they're not, you know, becoming stuck in some ideology because they're teachers one side of politics and that's both sides of politics, right? So that's what I think it's been, it's been happening quietly. I just don't think many people have noticed that now that it's become mainstream, it's gone bang and now it's hard to push that cart back down the hill. But my concern is with everything you look at human history,
00:49:46
Speaker
the pendulum is going to swing and I think it's going to swing too far eventually, right? You don't want that neither. You don't want it to, you know, it's going to swing all the way the other way where we're back to shunning people and, and you know, you should just stay locked inside all the time because of who you are. Like I don't agree with that neither. So you have to be very careful, right? But leave the kids alone is my thing. If you want to, if you're an adult and you think you're whatever you are, I've got no problem with it. Go live your life, be happy, do whatever you got to do.
00:50:14
Speaker
But when you're a child, you should not be bombarded by this thing. I think the human brain fully formed with mid-20s, right? Somewhere around there. I mean, we're really going to go tell primary school kids there's an infinite amount of genders when they have to deal with everything else going on in the world. There's a time and a place for that. And it's not in primary school or even early high school in my opinion.
00:50:36
Speaker
powerful reflection to leave listeners with. Andrew's podcast, Rogue Bogues, it's one of the most quirky, interesting podcasts going around. Some episodes are the ultimate insider's view of basketball in the NBA. Some are personal reflections from the man himself on his career.
00:50:52
Speaker
Summer interviews with leading public voices on the issues of the day. I listened to one with Catherine Deves, who's a women's rights activist in Australia. And that was fantastic, that conversation. I'll admit, I'm not a massive basketball fan. I still loved the podcast. I'm sure all of our listeners will as well. You can subscribe by the link in the show notes here. Andrew, this has been such a fantastic conversation. Thank you for coming on, Australiana. No worries. Thanks for having me.
00:51:17
Speaker
Thank you very much for listening to this episode of Australiana. If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a rating and a review. And if you really enjoyed the show, head to spectator.com.au forward slash join. Sign up for a digital subscription today and you'll get your first month absolutely free.