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Please explain, with Pauline Hanson
0 Playsin 2 days
If there’s one theme that cuts across Western politics in 2025, it is the rise of right-wing populist parties and politicians, tapping into a well of resentment towards establishment politics. Trump, Farage, Le Pen, and Wilders, to name a few. Some would argue they were all late to the game, trailing an unlikely figure; a female fish and chip show owner from the Queensland town of Ipswich.
After first entering the Federal Australian parliament in 1996, Pauline Hanson has been one of the most consequential and enduring political figures in modern Australian political history. And to pinch a quote from her one-time nemesis John Howard, in 2025, the times may just suit her.
Follow Will Kingston and Fire at Will on social media here.
Read The Spectator Australia here.
Watch Pauline Hanson's 'Please Explain!' series here.
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Transcript
Introduction: Right-Wing Populism and Pauline Hanson
00:00:20
Speaker
G'day and welcome to Fire at Will, a safe space for dangerous conversations. I'm Will Kingston. If there's one theme that cuts across Western politics in 2025, it is the right rise of right-wing populist parties and politicians tapping into a well of resentment towards establishment politics.
00:00:40
Speaker
Trump, Raj, Penn, Wilders and the AFD to name but a few Some would argue they were all late to the game, trailing an unlikely figure, ah female fish and chip shop owner from the Queensland town of Ipswich.
00:00:56
Speaker
After first entering the Federal Australian Parliament in 1996, Pauline Hanson has been one of the most consequential and enduring political figures in modern Australian political history.
00:01:07
Speaker
And to pinch a quote from her one-time nemesis John Howard, in 2025 the times may just suit her. Pauline, welcome Fire at Will. Thanks, Phil.
00:01:18
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. Alison, I've got to question you. Define to me populist party. Why do everyone head down the path of a populist party? a good question. And it's funny you say that because I was on a GB News show last night in the yeah UK and I was speaking to a Labour MP there.
00:01:36
Speaker
And he basically was saying that Elon Musk was far right. And I actually asked, what does far right mean? And then he said, well, far right means that he's tapping into populism.
00:01:47
Speaker
And so i think what you're getting at is is a fair point. And maybe the word that I used was wrong because populism potentially just means, well, it is tapping into what people want. and So maybe I'm using the word that that that you know people kind of associate with these groups but without actually thinking through what it means. What do you think it means and what it should mean?
Hanson's Political Journey
00:02:07
Speaker
Populist party means the word comes from popular, meaning it's in tune with the general majority of the people and for the people. And that's what it is. It is populist politics, whereas the politicians, they don't want the, as they call them, the plebs to have a say. We know better than what they know.
00:02:26
Speaker
Why should we give them a voice? And that's why they get so annoyed with it that why the populist party. They won't admit that it's the majority of Australians that are getting behind on people like myself because a lot of it's common sense that the major political parties won't even address.
00:02:42
Speaker
It's interesting in that answer, you you referred to the politicians. The politicians say this. You've been a politician now for 30 years. In fact, you're one of Australia's longest serving politicians ever, i would have thought. Yep. I'm going to pull you up there.
00:02:54
Speaker
no I haven't. You see, ah I was elected in 1996 till 1998 for two over two and a half years. And then I never got to be a politician again till 2016. So I was out of politics for, what, that's 18 years.
00:03:10
Speaker
Fair point. In and around the political system, let's say. But yeah the question is, do you still feel yourself as being an outsider? Do you still feel separate to the political system? not separate because I've become very knowledgeable and experienced and I know my way around now in politics by all means.
00:03:29
Speaker
And I probably know a lot more than a lot of the other politicians do or say and the way they act. But I'm still a grassroots Australian, meaning no I'm not a career politician.
00:03:41
Speaker
I haven't come up through the ranks through the unions or through the universities and have this way of thinking. You know, I have my own way of thinking of sorting out problems, issues, and I think that's what people like about it.
00:03:55
Speaker
And what I always have tried to do is be upfront with the people, with integrity and honesty. The people have a right to know who I am, the way that I think, and therefore they know who they're getting as the person to represent them on the floor in Parliament.
00:04:10
Speaker
interesting that people have a right to know who
Controversial Image and Consistent Policies
00:04:12
Speaker
who you are. And I think something which is interesting about your political career is that you have labels have been attached to you very easily. I asked for questions for this interview on Twitter and some people look at you as the saviour of Australia and look at you with a great deal of affection. There's a lot of people at the same time who who have negative things say about you, whether it be bigoted or racist or whatever. You've copped that stuff since 94, at least.
00:04:35
Speaker
The good thing about this sort of format is it enables people to to actually provide who they are and what they believe in in their own words. So Pauline, my I guess the foundational question for this conversation is, what do you believe in What do you stand for?
00:04:50
Speaker
Look, I love my country and my people, you know, because I'm one of them. I'm an Australian. And I respect the men and women that have fought for and sacrificed their lives for our freedom, our democracy, and what this country is about.
00:05:04
Speaker
ah I suppose I believe in in integrity and honesty in being up front the people. And it's a privilege and an honour to be a member of parliament. People voted for me to represent them to the best my ability.
00:05:17
Speaker
I'm not there for fear or favour. People don't always agree with everything that I say. but I've been consistent over the last past 30 years, Will, and i don't chop and change whichever way the wind's blowing, whichever way the poles go.
00:05:32
Speaker
and I've stuck my head out on many an occasion to put my point of view across against everyone else. And at the end of the day, I've been proven right.
00:05:43
Speaker
So whether it be on immigration, multiculturalism, I was the only one ah who posed multiculturalism in 1996 in my maiden speech. And now all these world leaders coming out and saying, no, it hasn't worked, even including John Howard.
00:05:56
Speaker
Immigration, I've been ridiculed over that. The COVID-19, when I said, don't put that shit into your body. All that is coming out now. The health issues that many people have. It's been a lot of issues, even The Voice. I was the first one to come out against The Voice before the National Party or the Liberal Party or Jacinda Price.
00:06:15
Speaker
So a lot of issues that I really have you know, followed with my gut feeling, knowing the way these Australian people feel and because I'm one of them. So if I feel that way, majority people feel that way.
00:06:30
Speaker
Yeah, it was one of the reasons why I was so interested in having this conversation with you because having looked back at your maiden speech, having looked back at your positions in 96, which at the time were outside of the political mainstream, they are now very much within the political mainstream. And those views around immigration and multiculturalism, which from many quarters got you labeled a racist and all that sort of stuff.
00:06:53
Speaker
People are now recognizing the issues or the problems associated with mass migration, with multiculturalism. I'm speaking to you from the UK where those problems are perhaps even more pronounced than they are in Australia. We will get to that stuff.
00:07:05
Speaker
But before we do, I'm just keen on pulling the thread a bit more around how you have evolved and how you've stayed the same throughout your career. You said there you've been consistent over 30-year period.
00:07:16
Speaker
I was listening to Paul Murray last night. For international listeners, Paul Murray is the face of the conservative Australian news channel, s Sky News. He said that this is a very different Pauline Hanson to even 10 years ago or 15 years ago and a very different One Nation party.
00:07:31
Speaker
Do you think you've changed over that period of time? Not so much my policies will because I still feel the same as what I delivered in my maiden speech in 1996. I still stand by those comments that I made.
00:07:45
Speaker
I think it's because the delivery of how I deliver my message now and also the fact is I haven't got all these hangers-on who are trying to drag me this way or that way. and trying to control me.
00:07:57
Speaker
And that's what it was all about. They wanted to take over me, they wanted to take over my party, and they wanted to control me. Whereas I haven't allowed that to happen. I've had to stand my ground on many issues.
00:08:08
Speaker
But I think ah I've experienced knowledge and understanding and, course, I've aged, you know, so that's nearly 30 years ago. So you tend to mellow a little bit in your in your old age and you try to to look
Leadership Transition and Policy Consistency
00:08:25
Speaker
through.
00:08:25
Speaker
i don't try and look through rose-coloured tinted glasses. I try to see it for what it is and and because it's very important that we do be honest on the floor of Parliament and to the public. They have that right to know the truth.
00:08:38
Speaker
It's interesting you you don't have the same people around you who may be distracting you or maybe putting you into the the wrong direction. yeah that could be and That is interpreted as a positive. It could also be interpreted as a negative in that some may see a problem with, say, a potential cult of personality around your party.
00:08:55
Speaker
And when you eventually leave the scene, there may not be that same person to to take it forward. Do you see that as being a potential problem in that the party is too focused around your personality and your popularity?
00:09:09
Speaker
Well, I've always thought that, and that's why slowly I've been getting rid of the name Pauline Hanson off the party name. okay but At the moment, I've still got it federally because I don't want to confuse the voters, because a lot of people switch off during election time. got a lot of minor parties, but once they see the name Pauline Hanson, they know it is the the party that I represent. So there's all reasons behind why I do this.
00:09:29
Speaker
Yes, it the party has to move on. I have started with this, but I think with good people that we've got elected to Parliament, Sarah Game in South Australia, and then you've got Ricky Lee in Victorian State Parliament, got another one in Western Australia State Parliament, and we've got Malcolm Roberts, and you know he's his own person as well.
00:09:47
Speaker
So as the party grows, we get more people elected Parliament. It will move on, and it has to move on from Pauline Hanson. And when I'm ready to step back and and retire from politics, we'll have a lot of good people there to take on.
Race, Identity, and Equality
00:09:59
Speaker
The legacy of the policies and driving forward what we want to see for Australia moving forward. and Let's go on to to policy and and some of the areas that you have been consistent on over a long period of time.
00:10:12
Speaker
And it is so interesting going back to that first speech. So you said at the time in 96, I won the seat of Oxley largely on an issue that has resulted in me being called a racist. That issue related to my comments that Aboriginals receive more benefits than non-Aboriginals.
00:10:27
Speaker
You went on to say that the country was being swamped by Asians and that these immigrants have their own culture and religion. They form ghettos and they do not assimilate. You argued instead that mainstream Australians were being so subjected to a type of reverse racism by those who promote political correctness and those who control the various taxpayer-funded industries that flourish in our society servicing Aboriginals, multiculturalists and a host of other minority groups.
00:10:54
Speaker
Do you feel a sense of vindication today? Well, people's eyes have been opened up over the years and there is resentment in our society, especially when the Labor government tried to bring in the voice, which is the voice to parliament for the Aboriginal people.
00:11:07
Speaker
And when you only have 3% of the Australian population, last census of 2021, it was about to eight hundred but approximately identified as Aboriginal And a lot of these people tick in the box who aren't really Aboriginal.
00:11:21
Speaker
It's not based on a percentage. It's just based on, I acknowledge, self-identify as Aboriginal. I think it's ridiculous for us to get to that state in this country. It's caused divisions.
00:11:32
Speaker
You know, there's special privileges because the kids, the classrooms get get but special privileges because they're Aboriginal, yet the kid next to them may be living in poverty with their family, they don't get those tools, actually education, they don't get that extra benefits that may help them along in life.
00:11:50
Speaker
Then you have housing, then you have cheap loans, then you have business agreements, then you have government procurements of given to Aboriginal companies and jobs. It's ridiculous. ah Okay, we've moved on.
00:12:01
Speaker
This country is, you know, 250 years or approximately that since um settlement happened in Australia. We've moved on. We've endorsed and we've brought the Aboriginal people on. They had the vote prior to our federation of 1901 in some states.
00:12:16
Speaker
They've been allowed vote. They've brought in the census in 1967. We've acknowledged the mistreatment, what's happened with previous generations. We've got to move on from there. If we don't get over the fact dividing us based on race,
00:12:30
Speaker
and treat people on an equality basis. So if you need help, you'll get that help. You'll get that assistance, but not based on your
Cultural Integration and Multiculturalism
00:12:37
Speaker
race. so That in itself is racist, and I will keep fighting against that.
00:12:42
Speaker
The question of race is an interesting one. And I think race and culture have been conflated by the left in in recent years to say that if you are part of a, say, particular religious group, for example, being Islamic, and someone has an issue with, say, the Islamic faith,
00:13:00
Speaker
Too many of them are tarred as being racist as a result of that race and culture have been pushed pushed together. At the same time, there are some on the right, and this has popped up in the UK of late, to say that race still matters and that they're worried about the displacement of an ethnic English population in the UK.
00:13:16
Speaker
There is, i think, to a lesser extent, but there is a decline relative to other ethnicities of the Anglo-white population in Australia. Should we care about race? do those race does Does race matter?
00:13:30
Speaker
look, we've got, so i've I've got some very close friends from all different cultural backgrounds and I had former, who was former Indian, he should second on the ticket to me when the last election when was up for a re-election, Raj.
00:13:45
Speaker
And Race never mattered to me. It was there their ability to it. And Raj considers himself a very proud Australian, loves his country, as many migrants have come here from many parts throughout around the world, have come here for that for the new way of life here and they've embraced Australia. What I get angry about, the people that come here and then they want to use their laws to change our culture, our way of life, and use our laws against us and don't assimilate into our society. And we've had many people here that still can't speak the English language.
00:14:16
Speaker
And I think that's not going to... If you want to assimilate, you must be able to communicate. And that's the problem is, but we don't make it a big a big enough issue that you must be able to speak the language.
00:14:28
Speaker
So why do we still put out how to vote cards in a foreign language? That tells me at what point do they really know why they're voting, who they're voting for, and what policies. So we're allowing strangers into our country that can't understand our language.
00:14:42
Speaker
They're casting their vote and that's that's a turmoil that we're going to face further down the track. So I think it's necessary that people must, if you come to Australia, you apply to be you know an Australian, well then you assimilate into our country, you must speak their language and you must understand our laws and be expected to be treated the same under our laws.
00:15:06
Speaker
And I think that's pretty common sense. The elephant in the room in this conversation is Islam. So when you were looking at multiculturalism in in the 90s, you were looking at immigration predominantly from Southeast Asia and from China.
00:15:22
Speaker
And that's because that's where the numbers in Australia at that period of time were coming from. By the way, numbers that were much smaller than they are today. You couldn't have seen, I imagine, the massive increase. in migration that we would see in the 30 years subsequently.
00:15:37
Speaker
But a lot of people said at the time, yes, there was a problem with integration with Asian cultures, but most, the vast majority either kept to themselves, there wasn't a huge problem when it turned to cultural fracture.
00:15:50
Speaker
The game has changed with Islamic immigration and a lot of people would suggest that threat is considerably more dangerous for societal cohesion. The question would be, do you think Islam is compatible with a Western liberal democracy like Australia?
00:16:06
Speaker
No, it's not. Definitely not. The ideology and their beliefs are totally incoherent or there then they don't assimilate with the Western culture. And is why these people are moving in countries around the world, setting their tentacles out.
00:16:22
Speaker
And they're actually we've got suburbs in the western suburbs of Sydney that people are fear to walk down the streets. I went through Lakemba there quite a few years ago now, and I had to have state and federal protection.
00:16:35
Speaker
um My staff had walked in into a shop to buy a loaf of bread and said, What are you doing here? I want to buy a loaf of bread. Where's your husband? And it's like, you shouldn't be out. And without your husband, I'm talking about a woman in her 50s and 60s.
Islamic Influence and Immigration Concerns
00:16:50
Speaker
And yet you question where it is. And then you have, you know, the burqa, full burqa, which I totally oppose. I'm totally against it. That's suppression of women as far as I'm concerned.
00:17:00
Speaker
And then you hear of circumcision, female circumcision. That's a big problem in Australia. And then you have these mosques. Then you hear from the police. They're not going to go anywhere. As soon as they set foot into these areas, they're surrounded by the locals, come out and surround them.
00:17:16
Speaker
They're not backed up by their own personnel. And I know what's happened in England. You've got over 1,000 Sharia law courts. You've got areas there.
00:17:26
Speaker
that the police or no one is allowed to go in without the permission from them. That's not the country that I want here. But we've had weak politicians. Even now the Labor Party under Albanese has brought out 3,000 plus people from the Gaza, where 75% of the population support Hamas, which is a terrorist, non-terrorist organisation.
00:17:48
Speaker
So why are we bringing them into Australia with, you know, 24 hours investigation into who they are? We have big problems we're going to be facing. And they these imams and different ones who get on the streets preaching their hate and they're all, old you know,
00:18:06
Speaker
congratulated by the crowd around them because they believe in this. We are going to get to stage in this country. will not be able to to defend ourselves from this. And we've got to look at other countries around the world.
00:18:18
Speaker
Like you have in France, you've got a hell of mess there. England is a mess. Netherlands is a mess. Denmark, Canada, all these countries, they're hell of a mess because they have allowed them in And I say, control the numbers.
00:18:33
Speaker
I don't want any people from Gaza here. and like And you know what? These other Arabic countries won't take them, not one refugee. So we're taking them in and I think we're in for big troubles down the down the road.
00:18:46
Speaker
And I'll tell people why I wore the burka on the floor of parliament, because I spoke to the president and an issue came up about one of the senators wearing a hat. And I said, well, they shouldn't be wearing a hat in the parliament.
00:18:58
Speaker
And he said, oh, there's no dress code. And I said, what do you mean there's no dress code? You can wear whatever you want to. So that's why I wore the burqa. It's a set of point. There's no dress code. Our parliament is around the Western culture.
00:19:11
Speaker
Our parliament's based on facial recognition. And I wanted to make sure to get them to change this dress code in the parliament so that We don't ever have a person get elected who wants to wear the full burqa because it would be too late then.
00:19:25
Speaker
Guess what? They haven't heeded my words. They haven't changed it. So we've got big problems. If we ever get someone elected to parliament wants to wear the burqa full time. Some people would say that the problems are just around the fringes of Islamic culture, just the extremists.
00:19:42
Speaker
How do you respond to that line of argument say that Islam is not so much a problem as much as the bad apples on the edges? Well, the trouble is sometimes we don't know whether the apple is bad or not until we cut it open and see if it's been infested.
00:19:58
Speaker
And that's what we've... can Are you willing to risk it? Because people we've allowed in the country as refugees have turned out to be terrorists. So how far are we prepared to go?
00:20:10
Speaker
We know we've let Sudanese in the country that have actually ended up commit committing crimes in this country, who come from war-torn country. And look, I acknowledge there are problems around the world.
00:20:22
Speaker
But when you have the Islam and its beliefs. And when you hear about Allah Akbar when you hear about, you know, jihad, jihad means war and it means to unite.
00:20:38
Speaker
i just, I'm sorry, I'd rather be on the safe side than being sorry for making the wrong decisions down down the path. And when we have approaching nearly a million Muslims in the country, and I don't, you know, I've had a Muslim stand as a candidate for me, Will, and she's proud. and She dresses like an Aussie, runs a business with her husband, and very proud. She's not, you know, she's not a practicing Muslim by no means.
00:21:08
Speaker
But when you have people that go and preach their hate towards our society and and the Western civilization. They're the ones I'm terribly concerned about and they're the ones that we should think twice about allowing those migrants from those countries.
00:21:25
Speaker
Yeah. So what would the policy response from One Nation look like, both from in terms of immigration, but also in terms of the people who are currently in our community or already in Australia, many of them are Australian citizens.
00:21:37
Speaker
How would you solve some of the existing problems around integration between Islamic communities and the rest of the Australian community? I think we should ban the burqa. I don't think it should be worn in Australia.
00:21:50
Speaker
You're actually these people who wear the burqa can only be employed in their own communities. So a lot of these people are unemployable because they'll never get a job outside of that.
00:22:00
Speaker
And then you have these workers What's happening in Australia also, you have multiple marriages under Islam. So they have multiple wives who having children, who's funded by the taxpayer. And I've spoken to ministers about this and previously, but they're not prepared to do anything about it.
00:22:17
Speaker
It's not going to be reined in. So this is another big problem that we have. Look at the countries and and we don't bring in migrants from certain countries that Iran, Iraq and some of these other countries unless we have a full investigation into these people and their families and their beliefs.
00:22:36
Speaker
We need to get strict about it and I'm strong on this. I'm not going to change my views. All I got to do is have a look what's happened to England.
00:22:48
Speaker
And I tell you what, that makes me stronger in my views. And I don't want it happening here. The interesting thing that you've pointed to in your answer is this strange relationship on the left between liberal elites and fundamentalist Islamic religious figures.
00:23:07
Speaker
And the great irony is that there are elements of Islam which are flat out sexist. And yet the left prides itself on being the kind and and diverse party and particularly the the party of of embracing women's rights.
00:23:23
Speaker
How do you reflect on that strange tension that has emerged on the left between supporting on one hand diversity and and affirmative action for women and women's rights and all of that sort of stuff, and at the same time also protecting a religious group, which does seem to have a fundamental problem with how it treats women?
00:23:39
Speaker
It's a joke, isn't it? Really, it's when you look at it, where's the fine line? You know, when do you say, oh, no, we're not going to support these women that are actually suppressed in female genital mutilation, but we'll we'll stand by the feminists and, you know, a transgender, and we we won't define what's a male or female.
00:23:57
Speaker
What an absolute joke. These people are sitting on a barbed wire fence. Whichever way, we'll get them the votes and support them. You know, they wouldn't know Arthur to Martha, and that's what makes me sick about the whole lot.
00:24:09
Speaker
you know If you want to practice this and wear the full berk and everything, go to a country that suits you. Go to a country that you're you're going to be happy there. That's your surroundings. if you're cut If you can't get a driver's license, you can't walk the streets without a male figure older than a 12 or 14-year-old child boy to accompany you and you can't get a job and you've got no control over your children and husband can control that, your movements, where you go, if that's your way of life, if you're happy with that, then go to a country that suits you.
00:24:39
Speaker
Don't come out to Australia and expect to change our culture and our way of life to blend in with you. Because what will happen, people, is that once they get a certain percentage, then they actually get members elected to Parliament, then it starts from council, which they are, then it goes into state government, then it appears in federal, which has happened in the UK, and then you've lost control.
00:25:00
Speaker
So you can kiss your Western standard living way of life away because they will control.
Changes in Australian Identity
00:25:08
Speaker
And the general populace, you know, are not having the children.
00:25:12
Speaker
Who's having the children? Look at the breeding patterns. And I'll be honest with you, that's what we've got to be concerned about. So if you think you can just bury the head in the sand and this isn't going to happen because politicians are only looking at here till the next election and they're not having, they don't have long-term vision will and that's a problem. A lot of things I said in my maiden speech has actually eventuated and you were talking about swamped by Asians when I said that.
00:25:39
Speaker
Yes, okay, I probably could have selected my words a bit better but it hit the mark. At that time we had about four 4% of Asian population in the country. From Tiananmen Square, when we brought these, and Bob Hawke said, no, the 20,000 students automatically could stay in Australia. We're going to give you citizenship.
00:25:58
Speaker
So they stayed in. So then they brought in family reunions. So all those ones that came in, they then had 75% of the next lot had to be from their family.
00:26:09
Speaker
So over a period of time, we were bringing a lot of Asians in the country, about 300,000. out of that. So that's where the Asian population grew. And my figures that I was told at that time, if we kept heading down the path, because and lot of them were coming from Asia at that time, by 2050, we would have 54% Asian population Australia.
00:26:32
Speaker
Well, I'll tell you now, it's approaching 20%. Asian population in Australia. Now a lot of these people are good people, hard workers. They've come here. They embraced Australia.
00:26:43
Speaker
But if we had kept with the same policy, that's why I spoke out about it, Will. I love my culture. I love the Western culture. You know, if I wanted to be surrounded by ah yeah and Asian way of life, I would have moved to an Asian country.
00:26:57
Speaker
But why do you think these people are coming to Australia? Why are they coming here? Well, because they don't want to live in their own countries. And all I'm saying is you come here. Don't bring your rubbish with you.
00:27:09
Speaker
Come here and embrace this country and everything it has to offer you. And Australians will embrace you. a few sort of threads that I want to pull on there. and let's talk about where Australian culture sits today and Australian national identity.
00:27:24
Speaker
It obviously is changing and evolving. The demographics are changing, so that will lead to change. I reflect on how we think about Australia in our minds. you know We think about the Paul Hogan view of Australia, the laid back, irreverent, anti-authoritarian type of country, all those sorts of things that come to mind when you think of the the stereotypical Australian.
00:27:47
Speaker
And I've had this conversation with several people now where if you actually look at what is happening in Australia in practice, we're perhaps not those things anymore. We're not anti-authoritarian. If you look at the way that we laid down during COVID, again, with some notable exceptions, we seem to be quite happy with authority.
00:28:03
Speaker
We're not irreverent. We seem to to cancel people with edgy you know edgy views. There seems to be, I think, now a disconnect between how we think of ourselves, the historical representation of what it means to be Australian, and and how many people in Australia today are acting So maybe this is a bit of a choose-your-own-adventure question, but how do you reflect on the Australian national identity today and do you think potentially it it is it is in decline?
00:28:30
Speaker
I think it is, yeah. I don't if you were, but I've been told that 50% of our population are actually foreign-born. So, you know, we've... learnt a lot from those kind of people that have come to Australia, added to Australia, and I'm not taking that away, you know, at all.
00:28:48
Speaker
But I think people have embraced the different cultures here. ah think we've probably done a lot better than a lot of other countries around the world. But to me, the the Australian way of life is, you know, g'day, mate.
00:29:02
Speaker
You know, so we've become too laid back and people are frightened to stand up and have their say because they'd be tagged. And they saw me tagged because I raised issues about immigration, multiculturalism or questioning about the Aboriginal industry that they tagged me, the racists.
00:29:18
Speaker
People have been snowed down with lot of issues that are affecting them, whether it be cost of living, finding a job, putting roof over the head, housing. Oh, so many issues, Will, that people...
00:29:30
Speaker
ah They don't want to fight anymore. We've got enough going on in our own little world. We're not worrying about you know those community groups and organisations. And one time Australians always worried about each other and the community there.
00:29:45
Speaker
And I think they're you know half the time now they're trying to sort out their own house without worrying about the neighbour's house or getting into arguments. And they distance themselves from politics in so many ways. lot of people don't follow politics, not interested.
00:29:59
Speaker
And so hence, they don't know what the hell's going in their country. And they have this feeling that what's the point? They're all tarred with the same brush. They don't trust their politicians. And they just feel there's no hype because no one's listening to them.
00:30:12
Speaker
So Australians... are just sort of hanging on by their fingertips in a lot of ways. And, you know, here we have, and I'll tell you this one, we've got ANZAC Day coming up.
00:30:23
Speaker
Do you know some schools are telling selling pupils they don't have to attend for ANZAC Day? So we're not teaching our history what's behind Anzac Day and the meaning of it.
Education, History, and Political Influence
00:30:35
Speaker
And it's not about war against war. That is part of our history. They don't even teach about the pioneers, the Australian pioneers in the classrooms anymore. They don't teach what Australia is all about. It's all about this welcome country hands on the ground.
00:30:50
Speaker
For 3% of the population, we're not Aboriginal. We are not Aboriginal and this is the path we're heading down. Just been talking to James tonight too about, you know, in the universities, they have to go along with including Indigenous in the curriculum for getting a law degree.
00:31:09
Speaker
So you have to acknowledge welcome to country. You have to do the walk and all the rest of And if you don't go along with it, which is yeah know and tens of students walked out the classroom and the lecturer said, well, if you don't go along with this, be very careful of the marks that you're going to get.
00:31:24
Speaker
So threads have been made to these organisations that are teaching about Indigenous in their learning, in their teachings. even to do with psychiatry classes, everything.
00:31:35
Speaker
Everything leads to this. So we're being pushed down this path to do with wokeness, agenda, transgender, all this rubbish that's being forced from the strands and they're throwing their hands up in the air.
00:31:47
Speaker
What can we do? Well, what can we do? That's a good question. I think it's interesting you mentioned education there. And something which really irritates me is on the right in Australia, whenever they get the levers of power, they seem to have this laissez-faire approach to education.
00:32:02
Speaker
When the left gets in, school curriculums are always on the agenda. There's always this attempt to put a black armband view of history into the Australian school system. And I don't think the the right does it particularly well.
00:32:14
Speaker
So I'll throw your question back at you. to In order to change the way that younger people particularly think about their country, what would you do? like Okay, you start with the educational system. We've got kids in kindergarten before they're grade one are actually doing welcome to country and they're taught all this in the classrooms. They talk about gender affirmation, which is wrong. In the books that they're read to, know, and So anyway, you start from the educational system.
00:32:41
Speaker
The left have been smart because over the last 30 years, and when I first got elected to parliament, I had two lecturers from the university come to see me and they said, Pauline, we've been told we've got to teach this way. If we don't, we're going to lose our jobs.
00:32:54
Speaker
And that was to the left. And they were concerned about it. That was 30 years ago. This has been put in place for a long time.
Free Speech and Hate Speech Laws
00:33:01
Speaker
So through the through the time, they've actually brainwashed these kids through the educational system, through the universities, and that's why they're now getting the jobs. They hire their own into the positions as bureaucrats, consultants, and other people into the parliament's offices are coming through that they're actually passing on their thought processes to these parliamentarians.
00:33:23
Speaker
And most parliamentarians, I don't have respect for them, Will, because they don't do the research. They're all aligned. They follow the lead. And they will not go outside of what the party is saying. You've got to vote this way.
00:33:36
Speaker
So they're the ones a lot to blame for the way of the state of our nation. Because I know they don't all think that way. They've said to me behind closed doors, you know, ah love the fact of your freedom that you can actually say and do what you want to do.
00:33:51
Speaker
We can't. We're bound to it. We have a contract with the Labour Party. So what hope have we got? Until we get a change in that parliament, vote people in like myself who are prepared to stand up and represent the Australian people with truth and honesty and what we think is right for this country.
00:34:10
Speaker
want to pick up on that comment. You love the sense of freedom in One Nation. We love that you can say and do what you want to do. This brings up what was without a doubt the most common topic that people wanted me to discuss with you, and that was One Nation's position on hate speech laws.
00:34:26
Speaker
They do associate One Nation with free speech. They do associate it Many people were disappointed with One Nation's decision to abstain on the policy of hate speech laws, which have recently gone through the Australian Parliament.
00:34:38
Speaker
Talk me through why you took that position. right I am very much for freedom of speech because I actually put up a my own private member's bill to enshrine it in the Constitution, send it to referendum, so I'm very much for freedom of speech.
00:34:50
Speaker
And all people I've been trying to be shut down over the years and criticised over my freedom of speech It is up to the public to judge me, not that. I said in principle before the bill went up in the House that in principle I support it.
00:35:03
Speaker
But when I went and actually had to look at the bill, um the sections of it that were actually shutting down based, oh do well, now I've got to think back to this. um It wasn't, I'm just trying to think of the wording for it.
00:35:18
Speaker
It was intent. I think the word was in it. So it wasn't a matter of law. It was basically on the intent. And there was a couple of other things in it that I thought, no, that's not right.
00:35:31
Speaker
Part of the bill I agreed with and the other part I didn't. So that's why I abstained. The bill needed tidying up. yeah I can't support something that that in general, I don't think it's the right thing for the Australian people.
00:35:44
Speaker
To be clear, on principle, do you support or are you against... enshrining laws against hate speech in in polity in in in legislation? Well, we already have that, okay?
00:35:56
Speaker
Now, i'm before the I went before the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity, and course we have a hate speech under 18C. So we have these laws already in place, which I found myself going through the federal court at the moment, which I was found guilty. Now I'm feeling that, and that comes up in in August.
00:36:13
Speaker
This is in place. What we were doing enshrining this to take away you know, people's rights more so. And I didn't like the look of the legislation. This is where, you know, i've I had a good look at it and I thought about it. I thought, no it's not the best way to head down.
00:36:30
Speaker
My vote made no difference. It was supported by the both major political parties. But I'm not going to be half-hearted about something. You're best, if you don't fully support the bill,
00:36:41
Speaker
then you you know you should vote against it. But there was parts of the bill that I did, so I was torn between the two, so it was best for me to abstain. Hopefully, this bill might be able to be brought up again on the floor of parliament to get it right.
00:36:55
Speaker
Would you repeal 18C if you had the ability to do so? Oh, most definitely. Well, that's why I'm fighting this case against Marine Faruqi and it's coming up and I'm appealing against that. If I win this case, 18C will be thrown out.
00:37:09
Speaker
So then there'll be no more 18C. So that's the whole fight. You know, our former prime minister's had the opportunity to get rid of it and they're sorry they never did. And this is another thing, you know, for me, I'm constantly going through battles. I'm fighting everyone else's battles, things that politicians should have done in legislation, but it's a continual fight for me all the time to get justice for the Australian people.
Gender Ideology and Policy
00:37:31
Speaker
So I'm all for freedom of speech. No one can question me on that. And I've always stood up for what I believed in. But you have to respect my my opinion that I really did have a good look at this bill.
00:37:43
Speaker
And i just I can't bring up the the sections at this time. I've got so many bills and legislation going through my head. But it wasn't in the best interest for me to put my name to it.
00:37:54
Speaker
It would have made no difference whether I vote for it or didn't vote for it. The bill got passed. But you are, you know, i think Australians are sometimes... not told the upfront truth of what's in something, the same as what we won't tell the truth about the voice.
00:38:12
Speaker
You mentioned gender ideology a couple of times, and this is something which has ah potentially expanded your appeal beyond perhaps where it once was. There was a tweet, which I thought was quite funny, which came through to me the other day, which said, I used to be a Greens voter.
00:38:29
Speaker
you know I was certainly not the type of person that would have looked at Pauline Hanson with a great deal of fondness. And yet she voted for you at the last election and she plans on voting for you in this election for your views on gender and for standing up for women.
00:38:43
Speaker
And she was not the only one to that. There were several TERFs is what they're called, several old school, I would say, kind of lefty feminists who say have said that they support Pauline Hanson because of her views on gender. How have you reflected on what 20 or 30 years ago would have been a very, very strange thing to try to describe to someone?
00:39:01
Speaker
It would have. It was never part of legislation. We never saw it. How the world's changed so much and you know really and in a couple of decades. so I reflect on what happened in Tavistock and in the UK and to the gender affirming and hormone treatment.
00:39:19
Speaker
And I think what turned me and I got in... Just quickly, Pauline, for people who don't know, the Tavistock Clinic was a centre in the United Kingdom which was responsible for gender-affirming care, that euphemism for young people, which has now subsequently been seen to cause all manner of problems like mutilating young kids and without any real scientific basis for it. And the Tavistock Clinic has now been shut down.
00:39:42
Speaker
Sorry, go on. Yeah, well, that's right. And what happened was, so I had about a half a dozen mothers came to see him at Parliament House along all the other politicians. You get the point across, they wanted to to have a Senate inquiry into it.
00:39:53
Speaker
The outcomes of their children being put through hormone treatment or having these gender-affirming treatment that was given to them, and it just actually destroyed their children.
00:40:05
Speaker
Now, I said, what sort of response have you had from the other politicians? They said, great, absolutely fantastic. So then i I moved forward to put a private member's bill on the floor of Parliament.
00:40:15
Speaker
Guess what? The first vote, three. Only three of us. And guess what? Half a dozen Libs voted with the Greens and Labor to oppose it with some of the crossbenchers.
00:40:27
Speaker
And then the the rest of the nats and libs walked out of the chamber and abstained from voting. I've put it up six times. I think the last vote was about 25 to 31. So I've shamed a lot of the men to actually wake up and understand what the hell's happening out there.
00:40:43
Speaker
And it's only just to have an inquiry, to allow the parents to tell us what is happening so we can get it right. Because we're talking about children as young as 12. having hormone treatment, and which is irreversible.
00:40:58
Speaker
We're going to destroy these kids' lives. I'm passionate about this. Then we have transgender playing in women's sports. I'm totally opposed to that. No way in the wide world. We've got two biological sexes, male and female. That's it.
00:41:10
Speaker
And if you're a transgender and you want to play in sports, I suggest you go and start up your own teams and and compete against each other. Get out of women's sports because I tell you what, you're cheats.
00:41:21
Speaker
your biological males your hormones are totally different your muscles are different no matter what you've done you are still male underneath all that skin and bone you are male so why don't you go and play in some of the the male sports because you know you can't win We could go on that topic for a while, but there's a couple of things I want to ah get through before our time finishes
Economic Protectionism and Manufacturing
00:41:45
Speaker
up.
00:41:45
Speaker
I want to turn to economic issues. So you you would be well aware, as the rest of the world is, about Donald Trump's tariffs and this move towards protectionism and and away from a more free market view in the US.
00:41:59
Speaker
How do you feel about that move towards a less open, less free markets view of global economics? If you read my maiden speech, I did mention about tariffs in my maiden speech, and I call for the reintroduction of tariffs.
00:42:16
Speaker
we were once a very productive country. We supplied white goods, footwear, clothing, cars. We were very productive, even our own steel manufacturing, everything it produced here.
00:42:28
Speaker
After the First World War, we ah we've always always had tariffs on in Australia. So after the First World War, were bringing lot of product from ah overseas, and they said, okay, we're going to put tariffs on. So they increase the tariffs.
00:42:42
Speaker
which created investment in Australia and innovations. Inventions were made and we actually farm machinery. We started up biscuit factories.
00:42:53
Speaker
And from once a country that had most of its populace working on farming, we had more people in manufacturing industries. So we were such a productive country. We supplied most of the goods ourselves.
00:43:07
Speaker
We had our own car industry with Holden. Then in the 70s, they started taking off tariffs. There was a Lima Declaration in mid-70s, and that was about that first world countries like Australia would sell our raw materials to third world countries to build up their lot in life and and make them more productive and that type of thing, and we'd buy back their finished products. Well, what that did was, and slowly as the tariffs came off, we were importing cheap products from other overseas that only paid a few dollars a day
00:43:38
Speaker
in wages. So that actually destroyed our own industry's manufacturing. Everything shut down. We've lost that workforce and you it's a shame.
00:43:50
Speaker
So my attitude is that put some tariffs on protect our own industries. We need to be self-sufficient. The world is full of turmoil at the moment and especially we don't produce our own oil here with the refineries that we need.
00:44:08
Speaker
We've, um you know, we'd run short of oil. ah We'd run short of we don't produce the steel. We send all our minerals overseas. Everything that we've done is has been to the destruction of our own productivity and the wealth of this nation.
00:44:26
Speaker
I take my hat off to Trump. He's actually putting those tariffs back on. lot of these companies have actually gone to overseas to get the cheap labor. Then they're actually made them the the country where they're paying taxes there was a lot cheaper than taxes their own country.
00:44:42
Speaker
So Trump said, no, if you want to actually partake and sell your product in America, you bring your your wealth back here and billions, trillions of dollars now flow back into his country.
00:44:53
Speaker
We could do the same here. Probably not on the scale that he's done because America is a totally different country, but we need to start protecting our own industries, get industries manufacturing going again.
00:45:04
Speaker
There are people who should be in our... manufacturing industries rather than pushing them through an educational system they don't have the academic skills and force them into a higher education which they end up with a debt and no job at the end of it we're wrong in way we're treating our people here ah agree with the loss last sentiment there, but the the interesting words there for me were were as tariffs came off in the 60s, the 70s, we made that exchange for slight de-industrialisation for considerably cheaper products because they can be produced more cheaply overseas.
00:45:38
Speaker
Australia is facing and continuing to face a cost of living crisis. We know that tariffs raise prices. How can you argue for tariffs at the same time as saying that we're facing a cost of living crisis and that this would exacerbate that further?
00:45:51
Speaker
Exactly, and it will too in the in the short term. But see, what they've done is over the period of time, Australia has become a dumping ground for a lot of these products. So you've got the same product a lot cheaper in America.
00:46:03
Speaker
So they're actually using us a dumping ground. You can't tell me what we pay for a pair of jeans. They bring jeans in this country of about $5 or $10 a pair. We're still paying the high price for it, Will. Where are we getting cheap product, really? And if you look at the product that we've been buying from overseas, it's a throwaway product.
00:46:20
Speaker
It doesn't have the quality of what the Australian product used to be. you know, i'd um the Australian product was well made. It was well respected for the quality that it was.
00:46:31
Speaker
So we're replacing that product two or three times. Australians want to buy Australian made. They want that quality. and if we want jobs for our own Australians instead of throwing them on the scrap heap or paying you know 850 or 900,000 people to be on unemployment benefits it's costing us more that way as well get innovation back get productivity back get people back in into jobs give them a way of life give them something to live for let them ensure that they they make their own way in this world pay for themselves you know no taxpayer
00:47:04
Speaker
should be paying for someone to be on a dole for 10, 20, 30 years.
Communication Strategies and Political Innovation
00:47:08
Speaker
The whole system is broken. A few inside the beltway politics nerds, common questions for you in the last 10 minutes.
00:47:16
Speaker
First is what I think is one of the more fascinating developments in modern Australian politics, which again, I would not have seen coming in the 1990s. And that is that Pauline Hanson and One Nation have effectively revolutionized political communications in the country through your Please Explain videos.
00:47:35
Speaker
And I say this sincerely, some of the best content, not just political content, I think there's some of the best satire in Australia. um where did the ah And for people who don't know, I strongly will put a link in the show notes to this.
00:47:46
Speaker
There are satirical cartoons that One Nation is putting out, which are shining a light on the issues of the day in Australian politics. And they're very funny. They're very well done.
00:47:57
Speaker
Where did that idea come from? And I guess the other question is, why are so many other political parties so afraid to be innovative in how they communicate to voters? Yeah. I'm very fortunate that when I got back into politics in 2015 to kickstart the political party, James Ashby came on board with me. He's been my chief of staff for the last nine years and very much an executive with the party.
00:48:21
Speaker
It's all his idea. He brought the idea to me. I said, that sounds great. We've got a company in Australia who then started at the cartoons. We were very, very good with it. At the moment, those cartoons, we've put out over 100 episodes ah of it over the last three years.
00:48:37
Speaker
We haven't put any yeah out any this year, but we're working on a movie. So we were bringing out a movie. That's what's happening at the moment. We've woken up a lot of people. we were going to target people between 18 to 35 to open up their eyes to politics.
00:48:52
Speaker
It is satirical, but it sends a clear message. What is actually going on in politics? It woke up a lot of people, but It didn't just go from 18 to 35. We've got people as young as 12 going up to 90 or 100 that have pulled me up with it.
00:49:06
Speaker
It's really, really interesting. And ah to follow up, again, most political communications remain rubbish. And to be honest, that a lot of the ads, even the social media posts, they do look dated. They look, oh, from from the other parties. Why do you think there is a general reticence to actually do something different when it comes to communication in politics?
00:49:24
Speaker
Because they're afraid of offending people and that's why they won't do it. They sit on the fence. And that's why they've followed my lead in many things, Will, whether it be politics, whether policies, whether it be moving forward, doing my own home interviews with my own camera. They all followed my lead. we We're the first ones to do it.
00:49:43
Speaker
And so they they're all terrified of it. They don't have that vision for the future moving forward.
Political Terms and Bipartisan Agreements
00:49:50
Speaker
So anyway, I don't care. I'll leave them in my wake. And with lot of issues, whether my politics or my policies, my vision for Australia and all the rest of it.
00:50:00
Speaker
So they pick up a lot of things that I say and do. So anyway, good. The vision question is really interesting. We have three-year terms in Australia. I personally think that they are too short. I'd probably have four if I had had the choice.
00:50:14
Speaker
And that does, because you are incentivized to get re-elected, it inevitably leads to short-term thinking. Something you've said throughout this interview is that you've had a longer-term vision for Australia. You've had a longer-term view.
00:50:25
Speaker
What are practical ways that you think we can get politicians to encourage more long-term strategic thinking as opposed to short-termism in Australian politics?
00:50:35
Speaker
like Okay, we need that four-year term. We just put up an electoral act in the last sitting of parliament of course, it was passed. I put it up an amendment to it to actually make it a four-year term.
00:50:46
Speaker
That was voted down. Also part of that, I wanted the Senate not to get eight years. I think it's too long for any member of parliament to be there for eight years. Both the lower and the upper house must go to re-election every four years.
00:51:01
Speaker
That was voted down. They weren't interested. What I'd like to see with legislation, especially around defence, to be agreed upon by both the political parties at a time.
00:51:15
Speaker
What I'm frustrated about is that they make a decision as we did with the barracudas with the submarines. Now that was signed, the deal was done, and then the next government comes in then they change that.
00:51:27
Speaker
And that's that's cost us over a billion dollars. It's constant taxpayers' dollars that are wasted. Important issues like defence or foreign affairs or different things like that, it should be adjoined by the parliament and that should be in place then for 10 years and not for the next government to come and change it.
00:51:46
Speaker
We have to have longevity in our some of our policies and politics and not just the whim of someone else coming in. Let them both work together for the people and start saving us those tax dollars.
Right-Wing Party Fragmentation
00:51:59
Speaker
Two final questions, Pauline. The first, there is now a grab bag of smaller or minor parties on the right in Australian politics. You've got the Libertarians, you've got One Nation, Clive Palmer seems to pop in in and out as you know as it suits him.
00:52:13
Speaker
And I'll say at the same time, as someone who is centre-right, as someone who you know would have traditionally voted Liberal, I won't vote for the Liberal Party in this coming election. i i I think they've given up on classical liberalism and I think they're not doing much better on social conservatism, the two pillars of John Howard's Broadchurch.
00:52:29
Speaker
That grab bag will fracture the right. Do you think there is a way to unite those minor parties on the right and is it something that you have any interest in doing? No, I don't you're aware, but Clive Palmer approached me at the end of last year that he wanted to to join our parties together.
00:52:44
Speaker
he wanted me to get rid of the the name Party One Nation. He wanted to call the Clive Pauling Party. He was going to inject $10 million dollars into the party, but he wanted to control the board by having five of his people and four of mine.
00:52:58
Speaker
I would control the Senate and that was it. I was coming to end of my time in politics. Why would I want to keep going? That's not for him to make the decision. And I said to him, Clive, do you think that's good deal? He said, yes, I do. Well, I said, oh, I don't.
00:53:12
Speaker
I said, I've had that many people over the years wanting to control me, take over the party. Well, I've stuck to my guns over the period of time and I'm not going to have all these would-be's that they could be but never have been, sit around the table and have have the division because that's what will happen.
00:53:28
Speaker
We all don't think the same as about policies and that division, that infighting will happen and I'm not going to have it. You know, I think that I've tested, you know, done the test of time and I've been around for quite some time and getting people elected to parliament.
00:53:44
Speaker
And I think that, you know, you have to accept the One Nation policies. I'm happy to work with anyone. And if these other parties do get themselves elected, fine, I'll work with them. But they're not going to be around the table with me and dividing this party that I've fought so hard to keep together.
00:53:59
Speaker
Clive Palmer at the moment, he's not going to go anywhere at this election. If you watch his advertisements, it's all motherhood statements, no solutions. We're going to put in the rail lines. We're going to do this. We're going to, you know, they're all motherhood statements. I could make those statements too.
00:54:15
Speaker
And he ah he hadn't bothered to re-register the party. He deregistered because he didn't want the paperwork. He didn't want the hard issues to deal with running a political party. So he pops up just to push his he's millions of dollars into an election and just cause havoc.
00:54:30
Speaker
That's not what this about. I'm not about to havoc. I'm about pride in my country and and I want the right thing for the people. The people have a right to fair go. not these has-beens out there that want to have and have a go and control.
00:54:43
Speaker
It's not about control.
Encouraging Political Participation
00:54:45
Speaker
it's It's working for the people. My final question. Your daughter, Lee, is standing for federal parliament in Tasmania. You've gone through hell and back in a political career.
00:54:56
Speaker
It sent you to jail. decision was was overturned. You have been slandered. you have It hasn't been easy. There's been a lot of victories as well, but it certainly hasn't been easy. And yet you obviously still believe that it is a noble and a worthwhile pursuit.
00:55:11
Speaker
And I imagine you've told your your daughter that. Why do you think people like Lee should continue to enter the the public sphere and what advice did you give to her? She said to me, Mum, I've seen what you go through. She said, I don't really want that for me and my family. I said, honey, I'm not you and you're not me.
00:55:29
Speaker
And I said, unless good people put up their hand, nothing will happen in this country. I said, yes, it has been a fight and a battle. You know, I was the first independent woman on the floor of Parliament at the House of Reps.
00:55:40
Speaker
I've started up the the only woman to start up my own political party. And if we do, she does win a seat, we'll be the first mother-daughter team, I think, in the in the Senate. And it's all about, okay, we're we're putting our you know best foot forward to actually represent the people of Australia.
00:55:58
Speaker
She's a very competent, um tenacious, independent, resourceful woman, and she's done so exceptionally well in the jobs that she's held. and I'm so proud of her.
00:56:10
Speaker
She understands now what I've been saying. She wasn't interested in politics 10 years ago, but the whole fact she said now that she's had her children, she can see that unless she does something and speaks up and has that voice, nothing is going to change.
00:56:25
Speaker
I can't be here forever. You know, my time's coming to an end in politics, but if I get the right people elected the floor of parliament to carry on the legacy to fight for the Australian people, And that's that's what I want.
00:56:38
Speaker
I'm so proud of her and people will get good value. She's not a person to sit back and not have her say. She's community minded. She loves her family. She cares about it. She's watched me go through it.
00:56:51
Speaker
It has been hard for but she's learned a lot from me. But I've also accepted knowledge as the younger generation that also have a lot to offer in the floor of parliament.
00:57:03
Speaker
Well said,
Conclusion: Gratitude and Reflection
00:57:04
Speaker
Pauline. You should be very proud. Thank you very much for coming on the show today. And more generally, thank you for your efforts and your public service now over 30 years. Thanks for having me on, Will.
00:57:16
Speaker
It's been actually, I've enjoyed the interview with you.