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Trans women are not women (except in Australia), with Sall Grover
16 Plays9 minutes ago
It says something about the surreal times in which we live that the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom found it necessary to confirm something that everyone with an ounce of sense already knew. Men cannot be women. Unfortunately, in Australia gender ideology is still enshrined law. Sall Grover is Australia’s leading advocate for sex-based rights, and she is trying to change that.
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Read The Spectator Australia here.
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Transcript
UK Supreme Court Ruling on Gender Definition
00:00:21
Speaker
G'day and welcome to Fire at Will, a safe space for dangerous conversations. I'm Will Kingston. It says something about the strange times in which we live in that it took the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom to tell us something that everyone with an ounce of common sense has known for thousands of years.
00:00:40
Speaker
Last week, in a landmark ruling, the Supreme Court determined that the legal definition of a woman is based on biological sex. This follows Donald Trump in the United States, affirming that there are only two sexes in that country.
00:00:56
Speaker
Bottom line, man can't be a woman. Except in Australia, apparently, where this delusion is still enshrined in the Sex Discrimination Act.
Introduction of Sal Grover and Giggle V Tickle
00:01:06
Speaker
Sal Grover is Australia's leading advocate for sex-based rights, and she joins me ah today. Sal, thank you very much for coming back on Fire at Will.
00:01:16
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. it's a pleasure to have you back on. um was reflecting on this before we jumped on. And I think the interesting thing, which which we've seen in the US and the UK, is that this delusion is maintained by the broader culture. It's maintained by a political class. It's maintained by a media establishment.
00:01:38
Speaker
It's maintained by a particular legal framework. You have all of these different ingredients, which is propping up a lie. And if you chip away at each of those things, you can actually get to the type of outcome that we saw in the UK.
00:01:49
Speaker
Obviously, Australia isn't there yet. So I do want to get to each of those elements. But for people who are not aware of your situation, and I think many, if not most are now, and for anyone who isn't aware of the nuts and bolts of the Giggle V Tickle case we've chatted before on this podcast, I'll direct people to go back and listen to that episode.
Creation of Giggle and Backlash
00:02:07
Speaker
But perhaps give us the abridged version of how you've come to this position today. What is Giggle V Tickle about?
00:02:14
Speaker
And what are the latest op updates? Okay. So in 2018, my mom and I got an idea to create a woman-only social networking app Women could find roommates, freelance work, um the lesbian dating. like It was a lot of different apps in one is the best way to describe it.
00:02:30
Speaker
Yeah. women only spent all of 2019 developing it 2020 doing beta testing getting ready to launch trans rats activists discovered it on the app store on google play inundated it with one star reviews calling us transphobic me a turf i'd never heard that word before just yeah absolutely mortified started doing some research and went oh my god they're saying not and only are they saying like men are claiming to be women but governments and institutions are backing them up.
Legal Battle: Tickle V Giggle
00:03:00
Speaker
So I thought it was such a stupid thing that I was like, well, we'll just tread water. This will go away quite quickly because surely it will. I was very wrong. In our treading water, just under two years later, I received an Australian Human Rights Commission complaint from someone who um and like claiming gender identity discrimination.
00:03:22
Speaker
Basically, it was um what I learned. It was a man who claimed to be woman, woman who I had kicked off the app, not knowing it was a man who claimed to a woman, just that I saw a man and removed him from the app, which regular day at the office, men try and get on all the time.
00:03:35
Speaker
To settle it in the Australian Human Rights Commission, would have had to agree to let him on, let all men who claimed to be women on the app go to sex and gender education. could only be re-education because I know the difference between sex and say gender identity or ah men and women, pay $20,000, apologize. And I think i probably the most sinister part was moderate all the content on the app so that women men who claimed to be women weren't offended by what the women were saying.
00:04:00
Speaker
So not only did they basically want to come in, not only to come in, but wanted to control it. And so I said no, knowing that it could escalate to federal court, which is exactly what happened. So the person who's taken me to court is a man named, man who claims to be woman named Roxy Tickle.
00:04:16
Speaker
The app was called Giggle. So it created the stupidest court case name of all time, Tickle V Giggle. And it was basically the first what is a woman case that was brought on to a woman of first discrimination case of its kind that was testing sex versus gender identity in law.
00:04:35
Speaker
And we can get into what the problem is in Australia later on, but basically There is massive problems in the law in Australia. And for various reasons, we lost the first round. So tickle one, tickle be giggle.
00:04:49
Speaker
um I was told that I had done an indirect gender identity discrimination because basically I discriminated even though I didn't know.
Confusion in Australia's Sex Discrimination Act
00:04:57
Speaker
And Sal, as context there, you're in a difficult position because Julia Gillard in 2013 from memory included the word gender in the Sex Discrimination Act.
00:05:09
Speaker
Yeah, so in 2013, Julia Gillard's government did amendments to the Sex Discrimination Act and they took out the definitions of man and woman and they put in the definition of gender identity, thereby completely muddling the Sex Discrimination Act because sex is this biological, and anchored to reality, biological concept. Gender identity is this man-made concept. It's a thought. It's a... How you feel.
00:05:36
Speaker
Yeah. And so it's, well, which one has more weight in law? So these the sex discrimination commissioner within the Australian Human Rights Commission actually intervened in Tickel v. Gigle as Amicus Curie, which was friend of the court and was there to interpret the law for the court and interpreted it as gender identity having more weight.
00:05:55
Speaker
So that's one of the things we were up against.
Appeal and Critiques on Gender Ideology
00:05:57
Speaker
Sort lost the first round. Yeah, I was in gender identity discrimination ordered to pay $10,000 in damages because in court, I was asked to look at a meme and it made me laugh and I laughed at the meme and I was, $10,000.
00:06:14
Speaker
ten thousand votes So we are now appealing. is Tickle v Giggle is now Giggle v Tickle. So we're in the appeal at the moment and it will be heard in the full Fed report from the 4th to the 7th of August.
00:06:27
Speaker
Just to make it that little bit crazier, I'm not the only one appealing the decision. Tickle is also appealing the decision. So Tickle is appealing the decision he won.
00:06:38
Speaker
He wants it frustrated from... indirect to direct discrimination, plus he wants damages upgraded from 10 to at least 30,000, and he wants indirect ah sorry um aggravated damages of at least 10,000, plus coming after me for costs.
00:06:55
Speaker
So while my legal fees in are going to end up being well over a million dollars, depending whether it ends at the end of this round or if we go through to the high court, which would be the last round, which would be the next only the next place we could go,
00:07:07
Speaker
So mine will definitely be over a million dollars. If I was also to lose all the rounds and have to pay his costs, I would be in for over about two and a half million dollars because I know that a man is multiple.
00:07:21
Speaker
So that that's it in a nutshell. And now, or at least as of last week, if this same case was being played out in the United Kingdom, for example, it would be a different outcome.
00:07:33
Speaker
I could run Giggle from the UK. I could run Giggle from the UK or the US. But in Australia, they have basically made it illegal for a ah startup, a business, a group, anything to be strictly woman only. There's another group that actually went to the Australian Human Rights Commission to ask for an exemption to be able to hold female only lesbian events like there's any other kind.
00:07:56
Speaker
And... They were told no. And so they appealed that decision and lost to that. And so just the level of capture in Australia, i argue, is the worst in the world.
00:08:08
Speaker
Our laws are definitely the worst. And the institutional capture. i mean, for example, just at the end of this past week, after the UK Supreme Court decision, Anna Cody, the Sex Discrimination Commissioner, released a statement just completely just gushing all over the trans and how they're a vital part of our community and you know they have to have that there should be no discrimination, they have to rights. And you're like, look, fine, in the sense of like I don't want any specific person to experience discrimination or oh you know unnecessary hardship.
00:08:43
Speaker
Fine. However, These rights they are claiming were never rights they had. It was never a man's right to go into woman-only space. Because the moment they do, it's no longer it ceases to exist. It's not a woman-only space anymore.
00:08:57
Speaker
So it's it's basically a right to destroy something. They never had that right. And additionally, the people being discriminated against, if you're going to choose gender identity over sex, are women.
00:09:10
Speaker
So right now, I'm the one being discriminated against. Like, I'm the one that can't run my startup. I can't go into a woman, have a woman in this space. I can't say no to a man if that man claims to have a gender identity.
00:09:21
Speaker
This man who claims to be a woman has more rights than I
Free Speech and Gender Identity
00:09:24
Speaker
do. Not only that, he has the institutional support of the sex discrimination commissioner gaslighting everybody that they have nothing.
00:09:32
Speaker
Yeah. And this is the this is the part that I find, incredibly well, one of the many parts of this whole saga I find incredibly annoying. And this actually came up on a ah show on JB News that I was on last night where the token lefty basically said, well, trans people only represent point whatever percent of the population.
00:09:50
Speaker
Such a small group. Why do you guys care so much? I think what you're suggesting there is this doesn't just affect that point whatever percent. This affects all women. This affects the majority of the population.
00:10:01
Speaker
It affects every person in society because the moment you are being forced to see and and say that that man is a woman, your freedom of speech and freedom of belief have gone.
Valuing Freedoms in Western Societies
00:10:13
Speaker
So every man, woman, and children should have that in a functioning society. So this is my my whole argument is is that gender identity just simply doesn't work. in functioning society because it is actually against every single secular liberal value that we hold dear.
00:10:30
Speaker
i think that any person who claims to have a gender identity or be trans or whatever, you are welcome to. That's your freedom of belief. But your freedom of belief stops the moment that you are trying to force that belief on another person.
00:10:45
Speaker
We've all operated with that way. That's why we can all, but yeah yeah anyone can have their own religion. You just can't force somebody else. You could maybe, you can go and like proselytize, sure, but you can't force it.
00:10:58
Speaker
At the moment, gender identity is being forced upon people. And that's the problem. Before we zoom back into gender, I'm actually interested interested in this broader conversation in that I i think that classical liberalism and free speech and civil liberties, more generally in countries like Australia, are not valued in the way that they were valued um I don't know, pick a number, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago.
00:11:23
Speaker
yeah you can You can talk about examples like COVID. can talk about examples like the limitations on free speech, like hate speech laws in Australia, similar types of laws in the UK.
00:11:34
Speaker
Have you reflected on why, not just in the realm of gender ideology, but perhaps more generally, we as Western societies, and I think particularly in Australia, don't seem to value freedoms in the way that what we perhaps once
Rationality vs Religion in Gender Ideology
00:11:48
Speaker
did?
00:11:48
Speaker
I think we took them for granted. but We've, while they have, especially in our generation, there have been some hardships in terms of, you know, like economic crashes and things like that. We haven't had, you know, like sort of what like the greatest generation went through or anything like that. We've never had to go and fight like on the battlefield for rights or or safety, due protection or liberty or anything.
00:12:10
Speaker
So I think that might just psychologically have something to do do with it. Although it sounds really depressing that if we we don't appreciate it unless we have to fight for it. So let that be a lesson, I suppose. But i I don't buy the argument that it's a lack of religion. I'm seeing more and more people say that it's ah it's a lack of the church or something in our lives. And so people are going and searching for community or salvation or just ideology in other places. like I don't personally think that one ideology is needed to defeat another ideology. like
00:12:43
Speaker
I'm a huge huge Christopher Hitchens fans, that's that that was sort of he was one of the sort of the intellectuals who raised me, as if I suppose, in my early 20s, who I loved, and I always go back and revisit him. And his argument was always, you know, we had the Enlightenment, and and no one's really ever tried to create a society completely by it, where it was just that.
00:13:03
Speaker
Like, religion has always snuck its way back in And again, you can have religion, that's fine, but just it should be completely separate from the state so that it isn't infiltrating anybody else's lives.
00:13:17
Speaker
And so, yeah, so I don't think that religion is what's going to help here, at least in a political or legal framework. in in Even in every people's everyday lives, like if we could what's what's missing is rationality.
00:13:33
Speaker
and reason and truth and reality. So we don't need to bring in myths to try and defeat one myth with another. just need to maybe have some appreciation. There's also the fact that we, for the first time ever, you know, but we've got these like little devices that sit in our hand and have access to more information than ever before. And I'm like, are we overwhelmed by that?
00:13:55
Speaker
And so we have to go and make up nonsense to sort of feel powerful or like something or that there's something unknown because everything on a day-to-day basis is knowable.
Misogyny in Trans Activism
00:14:06
Speaker
If you're wondering Not making up nonsense, but it's also the ease which that nonsense can be disseminated so quickly into so many people. Like, for example, and if you're just sitting there and you're just wondering, like, you know, something about, like, i don't know, quantum physics and you know know that no normal person knows anything about, just have, like, a tiny question that pops into your head, you can literally Google it.
00:14:26
Speaker
You know, like, 50 years ago, you'd just sit there for question. You'd be like, oh, I guess I don't know. And so I'm just, like, sometimes I do wonder if it's, like, because we have access to so much information, we wanted to create things where we don't, know like, where it seems that we don't know anything.
00:14:41
Speaker
I don't know. but mean, these are just theories I have when I think it through, of like, how how could this have possibly happened? And yeah mean, if you look at the behavior, especially of trans activists, there's something very spoiled about them and undeniably misogynistic. And so I think that there is a some questions that need to be answered around that.
00:15:01
Speaker
about yeah know it's like Of course, in the Western world, in one sense, you could argue that women are in the best position that we've ever been in. But at the same time, like especially in Australia, you'd go, well, we're not even defined in law. And in the yeah UK, they just had to go to the Supreme Court to make sure they were.
Media Influence and Bias
00:15:18
Speaker
And so it's something that even the suffragettes didn't have to do. At least what a woman was then. Let's pull it back to Australia then, because in many ways, this is the foundational question, which I think many Australians and probably now many people in the UK are looking at Australia and wondering what is different about Australia where this delusion is still maintained in law.
00:15:39
Speaker
And I would argue as well, having seen your your appearance on the project recently, it's still maintained in the media class and maintained in many parts of the culture a way where it just isn't anymore to the same extent in the US or the UK. The tide has well and truly turned.
00:15:55
Speaker
in those countries which are culturally the most similar to us. So before we go into more granular areas, why in a nutshell is Australia different? Okay. The first line of that, I think, is our media pool is a lot smaller.
00:16:09
Speaker
this You would know you know this. there's really We don't have that much different media. And a lot of people now do actually get their media from international online places, but the media is very small. So if you, a lot of the people who are just consuming Australian media, or if you're getting Australian stuff specific out there, it's very easy to capture because there's only so many, like what they had in the UK that was of benefit to them.
00:16:33
Speaker
And I can't believe I'm saying this, but it was, it was tabloid that would, that would print anything. We don't have that. So that the the media in the UK that would print anything gave women an opportunity to get information out there.
00:16:44
Speaker
here, i mean, we've got Sky News that will occasionally have women on. They definitely aren't all in on this issue, not or as not all the hosts, and they don't inundate their audience with it, but they do will have us so ah have us on every now and then.
00:16:58
Speaker
We've got the Australian newspaper that will, again, occasionally write something. And that's basically it. Like, I should add for ah for completeness, The Spectator Australia has been firmly behind the sex-based rights movement in Australia, but but perhaps not quite the same distribution levels.
00:17:17
Speaker
and They did publish an article I wrote not long ago, and everyone should read it because it is very good if I could say so myself. and It's all about this issue and more information about it. But, you know, then you have like, say, you've got the ABC that's completely captured. So that's like the BBC. But it it they're just government funded, completely captured.
00:17:34
Speaker
SBS, completely captured. Then you've got the mainstream channels, completely captured. Although, is it Channel, is kind of fair on Channel 9? That one, because they had me on. And that was that was last year. And that was like, you've got like, oh, the first little crack. And then the project was la last week had me on.
00:17:52
Speaker
five and a half years I've been asking this show to have me on and they've met they wouldn't respond even respond to me. So there's I am wondering if there's been a slight cultural shift in that, but it's That's what we're up against. We're up against media that will print daily stories about how brilliant or vulnerable or marginalized the trans community is and completely sure that there's any opposition to it or that there's any problem.
00:18:16
Speaker
And when they're forced to, so say when and during the hearing and the decision last year, when the ABC was sort of forced to publish some stories about the case like this just because it was happening,
00:18:27
Speaker
It was so, so slanted against me to the point that in in the court, you know, they the barrister had just accused me of harassing Tickle.
00:18:39
Speaker
Now, I don't know this man. I've never met this man. If he hadn't taken me to court, I would have no reason to speak about him. I would have had, I would have no issue with him if he wasn't going into a woman-only space and not taking me to court.
00:18:50
Speaker
Like, this man's life is of no business to mine unless he's trying to take away my rights. And the ABC wrote the whole article framing it that I had been harassing him. So that's what you're up against.
00:19:02
Speaker
And then from there, so you've got then this this media class that just is effectively all in, let's say 85 to 90% all in. So for a politician to speak out against it, that's how much media is going to go against them.
00:19:18
Speaker
Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Well, before we get before we get to that link between the media and then the political class, let's go a bit deeper on the media. You mentioned that appearance on the project for people who are watching in the UK or in the US.
00:19:31
Speaker
The project is on Channel 10. It's a reasonably popular, fun look at the day's news hosted by centre-left pseudo-intellectual types and B-grade celebrities in Australia.
00:19:43
Speaker
What were your reflections on that appearance last week? Well, it was so funny. They call, like my phone rang at about 11 a.m. m and I didn't know the number and I don't always answer, but I was like, oh, something told me to answer. And I just heard this, hi, it's such and such from the project. And I was like, hi, I've been waiting five years for your call. And I knew it would be about the UK decision.
00:20:06
Speaker
and I mean, he was, like the producer was absolutely lovely to me. And to the project's credit, like they didn't have, I was, I was shocked that they were covering this. They didn't have to. So that's why I'm like, there's this, something's happened. There's been this tiny shift for them to even acknowledge a case in the UK.
00:20:21
Speaker
So they asked if I would come on and i was like, yeah. And to be honest, I was like, they're not going to be hostile to me. Why would they be hostile to me? Why would they have me on if they were going to be hostile to me? And I had a lot of people saying to me, oh, they're going to be hostile to you. then So like it was here at my place and the cameraman arrived and like settled up.
00:20:39
Speaker
And he was lovely on my side as well, and telling him about everything. And then it was time for the hosts to say hi to me. And it was just, well, it was very cold, professional enough.
00:20:51
Speaker
and then straight into the interview. And I was i was sort of just sitting there going, you're being so hostile. This is very stupid. You're giving me an opportunity to be the most reasonable person in this conversation.
Predictions on Media and Gender Issues
00:21:04
Speaker
like if you're like I'm not going to sit here and stampede my way through this interview and make a fool out of myself or become the irrational one. I'm literally just saying that men are not women. There's no possible way that they are.
00:21:17
Speaker
And if men who claim to be women or women who claim to be men need any accommodations in society, go work them out. We're not going to stop you. You just can't take away the accommodations that we need as well.
00:21:29
Speaker
That's all. And so I don't know. i don't I think that they weren't expecting that I was going to just approach it that way. Wally, the sort of main host, I think he said, um the last question to me was like, you know, you keep saying men who claim to be women. Is it correct that you, you just don't believe that there is such a thing as trans women? I'm like,
00:21:49
Speaker
Exactly. Because it's not. It's men and women. A man can call himself whatever he wants. It doesn't make it real. doesn't make it something that anyone else has to believe. And on top of that, like the only prerequisite to be a trans woman is to be a man.
00:22:04
Speaker
I cannot be a trans woman. And the reason that is biological sex. And that's the issue. So just you you only have to go like one to two steps with any claim that gender ideology makes and the whole thing crumbles.
00:22:19
Speaker
And it's just so amazing how much is many people, especially in the media class, have never gone even half a step from the statement. I've never seen anything like it because usually journalists, you mean, you know this, it's usually you have to question things and they just they just haven't.
00:22:34
Speaker
Yeah, this is interesting because, you know, someone like Waleed Ali, he's not stupid. He's obviously a smart person in an in a IQ type of way. And again, like I'm sure he he would have to be somewhat intellectually curious to be in the job that he's in.
00:22:49
Speaker
Surely he can see what has happened in the UK and go, the tide is turning here. But also surely... This reminds me of that line, that gender ideology is so incredibly stupid that only an intellectual could have come up with it because you need to have some baseline level of intelligence to be able to justify or rationalize such an insane idea in the way that someone who maybe isn't quite as intelligent but has common sense would just go, yeah, you know what, a bloke can't be a woman.
Political Reluctance on Gender Ideology
00:23:15
Speaker
Sometimes it is like more intellectual people are actually capable of convincing themselves of really stupid things because they sit there and like, and basically think they're rationalizing it. Whereas like someone who doesn't, isn't like overly intellectual or analytical will just so like' just go one plus one equals two.
00:23:31
Speaker
Yeah. so So my question is, why why would someone like Waleed Ali be continuing to hold on to this when, a whilst I know that there would be a slightly younger demographic watching the project, whilst I know there would be plenty of the inner city liberal lefty types who watch it, I would still imagine the vast majority of people who watch that show on Channel 10 would would be common sense, everyday Australian people.
00:23:56
Speaker
And I think the overwhelming majority, when you look at the latest surveys or polls have done this topic, would have the common sense view that men can't be women. You may have the number the back of your head, but why, despite the fact that most of the audience wouldn't be on his side, and why, despite the fact that the global sentiment is changing, would someone like him be maintaining the position that he is in?
00:24:18
Speaker
First of all, that's i was talking to the audience. That was my plan going in, was to be like, I'm not here to pick the host or to impress them or anything. think I just want to know let that audience know that anyone over on my side, we are not these scary, crazy, hateful Nazi bigots that you may have been led to believe were actually really rational, nice, normal people.
00:24:40
Speaker
so So yeah, overall, the host's opinion of me was quite irrelevant. but why do I think this is, I have a theory. So as I keep saying, there must be this cultural shift for them to even cover the story because they could have ignored it.
00:24:55
Speaker
So if there was this, if there was, there's been meetings going, okay, guys, we're on the back foot here. The culture is changing. We've got the US that has done this. The UK has done this. It is inevitable that Australia is going to do this too, because Australia is not going to be the last country in the world sitting there saying men are ah women. Like,
00:25:11
Speaker
We're like the little sister or brother who, you know, wants to do what the older, cooler one does. So we will follow suit. Could have been the leader. that's how we got into this mess in the first place. Totally.
00:25:23
Speaker
And so, look, they could have just, it could be as simple as there's been a few different meetings of like, okay, how are we going to adjust our position on this? Okay, we'll just do it slowly.
00:25:34
Speaker
And so we'll start off like hostile. We haven't really changed. We're giving it airtime, but we haven't changed. And then just slowly over time, it'll just be like, it never happened. We've always been on this side. What are you talking about? So I think that, cause I think that that's what a lot of them are going to do in a few years time. They're all going to come out and be like, I i literally never thought that men could be women. That's a stupid idea.
00:25:52
Speaker
It's stunning and brave. It's already, it's losing. It's any sort of value, like social value that it had. So That's all I can think of is that they've just made a plan to just slowly make everyone think they were always on the site the right side of history, as they would say.
00:26:08
Speaker
Yeah. A canny change management exercise to try and save face. And I think you've probably seen something analogous in the way that people who were hardcore around certain things with respect to COVID-19.
00:26:22
Speaker
that have now been demonstrably proven to be false. It's just kind of slowly pulling back so you don't have to say, shit, sorry, I was wrong. Oh, totally. like i In no way am I thinking a vast number of people are going to turn around and go like, oh, God, I'm so embarrassed I got that wrong.
00:26:38
Speaker
I think that there's more of a chance that there are some people, like both media and politicians and and sort of powerful institution types, who potentially have realized that they got sucked into the stupidest idea in modern history.
00:26:52
Speaker
ah Probably initially under the guise of being kind, we all want to, they would have just heard that there there's another letter, be kind. Oh, sure, civil rights. Yep, all in on that because all nice liberal people are.
00:27:03
Speaker
And then we're just out there saying nonsense, eventually realized, oh my God, I've utterly profound myself by saying that women can have a penis. How do i get around this?
00:27:14
Speaker
And I think there is a personality type that instead of admitting they got it wrong, they double down. Yeah. and And I think it is the right insight that most of the people who initially go along with gender ideology are doing it out of a misplaced sense of kindness is really important because I think, unfortunately, for that exact same reason, they will also be the last Japanese soldiers in the jungle. This is the ah metaphor that that Helen Joyce often uses when she's talking about the parents of trans children who have gone through gender reassignment, that those parents will never, well, at least it will be incredibly difficult for them to be able to change their views on this.
00:27:52
Speaker
If they were to realize what they'd done, then that is morally abhorrent. And that goes against their their they view of themselves as doing this out of kindness. Yes, but my theory on that, to expand on that, because completely agree with Helen. However, i would say that there the the last frontier for those parents is going to be their own children.
00:28:12
Speaker
So if we if you take it that those children never detransition, eventually they're going to be in a minority because we it's a social contagion. We know most of these people are going to detransition. So those parents, whether they did this out of like just, you know, she not just kindness, but like ah as just going, what else can I do?
00:28:31
Speaker
Or if they pushed it on their kids, those kids are eventually going to turn around and go, why'd you let me do this? So I think that that's who they're going to have to answer to before anyone else. And that may be the hope of them actually realizing the war is over and that they lost.
00:28:45
Speaker
But that's going to be tragic in their own way. Yeah, yeah, it will be. And again, the reason this story is so surreal and bizarre and sad is there are elements of it which are almost tragicomic in their elements as well, which are incredibly sad.
00:29:02
Speaker
and And it all kind of comes together in this strange, toxic stew of delusion. You mentioned that link earlier between the media establishment and the political class. I want to understand the political side of things a bit better.
00:29:17
Speaker
Peter Dutton, after that ah verdict in the United Kingdom, was asked by a journalist, the now classic question, which should be incredibly easy to answer, what is a woman, Peter?
00:29:28
Speaker
And he fudged it, basically. He said, oh, I just don't think this is a top of mind issue in this campaign. He could have said, adult human female, next question, and he didn't choose to do that. think that represented a fundamental cowardice on his part.
00:29:42
Speaker
Why do you think that The political class in Australia have not moved to reverse this in a way that particularly now the Republicans in America have moved on this as a political issue.
00:29:55
Speaker
There's quite a few elements to this. So you've got some politicians in Australia who are willing to speak out. Claire Chandler, who's a Liberal Senator in Tasmania. You've got Alex Antic in South Australia. And then you've also got... Colleen Hanson as well, to her credit, been very steadfast on this.
00:30:10
Speaker
No, what I was about to say. Pauline Hanson, too, has been incredibly good on this issue. She started with wanting inquiries into the child gender stuff. She's 100% right on this issue, which in itself could have caused a political issue in the sense that it should have been the liberals that picked it up.
00:30:28
Speaker
And so because she has, they they kind of like can't steal her policies now. Like, there could just be that. And also, just like people on the left in America almost feel obligated to go against anything that Donald Trump does, I think you'd have a similar thing with Pauline Hanson in Australia, where there'd be people on the left and even people on the centre-right who would be going, we are forced to go against almost anything that Pauline Hanson does. and one hundred percent 100%. But on this particular issue, they're making a huge political mistake on that. And maybe that hopefully will be the lesson for maybe everyone in the future of like, just don't have blanket, like...
00:31:04
Speaker
hatred or aggression towards the other side. Like I've always said, like, I never had to like leave the left or anything like that. So I was never, was never married to it. Like it was, would have always said that I was center left. I probably, think I would just say I'm center now, not married to it.
00:31:21
Speaker
I don't care where I land. I just, sometimes that one has a good idea. Sometimes that one has a good idea. It's like, work it out. Like, don't just sit there and go, what's my side telling me and believe it. So that might be something good that eventually comes out of all of this crazy tribalism.
00:31:35
Speaker
but so yeah So we've got a few politicians who are good on it, but that's obviously not enough to create any sort of political climate for change, put any political pressure on anyone, or to get anything done.
00:31:47
Speaker
The Labour government, who's the current government that's in in Australia, and who probably will be the next government because Dutton has...
Public Opinion vs Political Inaction
00:31:56
Speaker
mean, does he want to... Shut the bed, I think, is the ah is the formal term.
00:31:59
Speaker
I'm like, have you made a big bet or something? And it's like in your favor to lose because I'm like, I'm just, this is a, he is running a bad campaign. And so Labour will never fix this issue because in Australia, Labour brought in this issue. it was Julia Gillard's 2013 amendments.
00:32:16
Speaker
So the major, we've got two major political parties. The party we need to be in government to fix this politically are the Liberals. Now, they keep, the a few times that they have even acknowledged it,
00:32:29
Speaker
in terms of a topic, they just say things that we're not, we're not importing Trumpian politics. We don't want to get involved in a culture war. You know we're not America. And it's like, well, you didn't say we're not America when you were bringing gender ideology in.
00:32:43
Speaker
Like you were quite happy to import it It's been brought in. What you now don't want to import is the solution. So like, save me your nonsense. And this isn't Trumpian politics. He was just the first major politician who realized it was a win and he took it. Like, do I think Donald Trump cares about women's rights?
00:33:02
Speaker
No. Do I think he saw a political opportunity and seized it? Yes. Fine. Women in America get their sex-based rights back. Great. When everyone's sitting there going, you know, but he's making all of these different claims about him, which, you you're entitled to do. That's fine. Have whatever thoughts you want about him.
00:33:21
Speaker
He still did what the, it's like, wouldn't it have been great if the Democrats had done this? They didn't. Yeah. So they gave him the opportunity to do it. In Australia, like that could be happening here. like If I was running for prime minister right now, I wouldn't make this the center of my campaign. I don't think anyone is asking and any politicians to make it the center of their campaign. We're completely ah aware that there's many other issues.
00:33:43
Speaker
I would just be like, yep, we're going to fix it. Obviously, we're going to fix DEI in the workplace, women's rights, and get some some stuff seriously done on this child mutilation that's happening in our clinics and hospitals.
00:33:58
Speaker
And I'd also just, as my political football, I would just be like, this is what labor did 2013. They don't know what a woman is. Why should you believe them when they say anything else? And then I'd watch them try and justify it.
00:34:11
Speaker
And then every time they made a claim, I'd go, yeah, but they don't even know what a woman is. They won't even tell you the truth about that. And I'd let them just sit there and dig their hole again. I'd just use it to my advantage. It's right there. and he's just, he won't even acknowledge it. And they one of the things both liberals and Labour are saying at the moment is there is no issue here.
00:34:30
Speaker
Now, this is just, I always find offensive is actually quite a weak word, but it is offensive, but it's it's like, it makes you blood boil. So it's obviously not just me. Like, I'm going being dragged through the courts, essentially doing their job. You've got other women, like Kiralee Smith, who is being dragged through courts.
00:34:47
Speaker
Then you've got actual detransitioners in Australia who are hearing politicians say there's no issue with gender ideology in Australia. And they're sitting there going, we have lifelong health problems and no one to help us.
00:34:59
Speaker
And you're just going to sit there and tell me that there's no problem. There's massive problems. So yeah any politician who is ignoring this, it's either out of fear from either trans activist or the media class.
00:35:13
Speaker
Or I think in, say, like the Liberals case, they are listening to focus groups and not citizens. I get thousands of messages from Australians saying they are on my side.
00:35:24
Speaker
My entire case is funded because Australian citizens are on my side and people around the world as well. It is something which I think is emblematic of the political class in Australia more broadly, and that is a lack of political courage and a lack of political skill coming together at the same time.
00:35:40
Speaker
You mentioned on on Twitter the other day, we've got John Howard coming on the show in a week or two. He was called a conviction politician. He's perhaps the last conviction politician. And you remember people saying either, you know, a lot of people love him, a lot of people hate him, but everyone knew where he stood. And I think that Those types of politicians are very few and far between today.
00:35:59
Speaker
He was also a very canny politician in the way that, again, I think the political skill is just lacking. And I think you summed it up very well in that there is an attacking opportunity here to basically take the piss out of anyone who says who can't answer what a woman is.
00:36:14
Speaker
There is a political opportunity to actually very seriously say that there are male politicians who are putting women at risk in prisons, in change rooms, you know, in on sporting fields. like This should be a very easy ball to kick into the goal.
00:36:29
Speaker
And yet we just don't seem to have that class of politician politician who can do it. Yeah, it's beyond an position. like We're talking like a probably 90-10 policy here. Like the people who are against it, the people who are in the captured institutions.
00:36:44
Speaker
So if you'll if you're just listening to them, like I was talking to someone recently who is very involved in politics in Australia, and she was saying and I was saying, like, the political climate is changing. She like, absolutely, no way it isn't. I'm like, yes, it is.
00:36:55
Speaker
You're looking at the politicians. That's the direction you're looking, and you're saying no change. I'm looking at people. And it's completely changed.
Legal Challenges and Activist Influence
00:37:03
Speaker
It's like, you guys need to turn this way and stop looking at, stop looking at polls. We can all find a poll that will validate what we want it to do.
00:37:14
Speaker
But you can get a focus group to tell you anything you want it to tell you. i think Just to actually just go and talk to people. Just actually say something and get feedback for it, which is what say Twitter it can be a great tool for and you see sometimes they're using it but I just it it is it's there's such a cowardice here like I don't think Australia like breeds flu that very good political leaders part of how our system is that you sort of can't come in and have like some char of charismatic leader it doesn't really kind of work that way in a sense but just
00:37:51
Speaker
you know it is I suppose it's one thing that I've grown to respect about Pauline Hanson, even if I don't always agree with her policies, is that what I do respect is I 100% know where she stands on something.
00:38:03
Speaker
And so that's very comforting. You're like, okay, I know that she's here. And then if I'm like, even say, I suppose with like Adam Bant, I know where he stands, but if you ask me where Albanese and Dutton stand on anything, I'm like in quicksand is what I think.
00:38:18
Speaker
yeah but Yeah, I agree. It's a thoroughly uninspiring choice in this election. Yeah. The other interesting thing which has come out of the UK recently, I don't know if you've seen it because it only came out i think last night in the papers, there are leaked WhatsApp messages between several members of Starmer's front bench basically saying, okay, well, the Supreme Court have said this, how do we get around it or how do we push against it?
00:38:41
Speaker
you know And they're talking about other statutes like the European Court of Human Rights and and or other legal statutes. legal bodies. And they're basically saying, this is appalling. We need to find a ah way to push back.
00:38:52
Speaker
So the the other interesting component of this is even if you do have eventually some sort of change, whether it's driven by the courts, whether it's driven by the majority of the legislature, there's obviously still going to be these people who are so captured within the political establishment that they're going to try and resist the practical implementation of the change. So in the UK, that is, okay, the court has now said this.
00:39:16
Speaker
But that means that when inevitably the first trans woman, whatever that means, bloke, takes a stand and goes into the female bathrooms or changing rooms at the Fitness First in London and says, right, I'm not leaving. And the police are called.
00:39:33
Speaker
What are the police going to do at that stage? Or when this particular sporting team inevitably says, right, no, sorry, Phil, aka Sally, has been playing, Sally, aka Phil, has been playing for the same team for the last five years.
00:39:47
Speaker
We're not dropping her. But there has to be then the execution of what we've seen. And that level, which I think is still very much open to questions, I mean, it's amazing, isn't it? We've never seen anything like it, but also, you know, we're told constantly this is the most vulnerable, marginalized group.
00:40:04
Speaker
They've got control of governments. What are you talking about? Like, for it to say in my situation... The Australian Human Rights Commission intervened on the side of the man who claims to be woman, not the woman.
00:40:19
Speaker
So don't sit here and tell me that these people are vulnerable or marginalized. They are the most powerful group in society right now. Everyone's fearful of them. Everyone does what they say. And then even if you've got courts that say something, but you've still got these people who will be defiant of that, which in no other context would they.
00:40:36
Speaker
There's something about this. And part of it, I think, is because the claim is so stupid that some of them have to double down and be like, no, there's no possible way I could have fallen for something so stupid. It has to be real. I'm going to stay in this little bubble where it's real because that's where I feel safe. like It's like stupidity is their safe space.
00:40:53
Speaker
i mean, hopefully they just get voted out. That's how democracy works. Let's turn to the legal side of this story. So in the yeah UK, and again, I don't know the ins and outs as well as the actual UK cases as you would, but there was a group of Scottish women who brought this case initially and it went all the way up to the Supreme Court.
00:41:10
Speaker
The Supreme Court have made their decision and now it feels like, you beauty, we have clarity. ah man is a man, a woman is a woman. the Your case in Australia is the is the most analogous case in Australia.
00:41:22
Speaker
If you, as we fully hope and expect will happen, end up winning this on appeal in the high court of Australia eventually, is that the same outcome? You beauty, done.
00:41:32
Speaker
We've got the problem solved in Australia. ah Okay, so the UK situation and the Australian situation ah in terms of legal framework are different. So the UK has a few things going for or had a few things going for it.
00:41:45
Speaker
They still have the definitions of man and woman in there. So they had an anchor to reality still in their legislation that they were able to then go and argue and push and be like, and and make their case.
00:41:56
Speaker
We don't have that. They took out the definitions. So our Sex Discrimination Act is effectively a gender identity discrimination act. And they're therefore and basically saying that every single Australian citizen has a gender a identity, which I think that in itself is something that people should push back on because we don't. This is nonsense. it It would be like someone saying the the government forcing you to believe that you have a soul.
00:42:24
Speaker
i mean, you can believe that you want, but you can't tell me that I have one. I don't believe that I have a soul. So the other thing that has happened in Australia that is different to the UK, the UK had something called a gender recognition certificate, which was kind of this sort of accessory that these men or women could get that was gender recognition certificates. Exactly what what sort of it says on the tin, that they it was a recognition that they had a gender identity.
00:42:49
Speaker
Now, they were basically different institutions and organizations like Stonewall were going into businesses and clubs and whatnot, education system, and telling everybody that that gender recognition certificate meant that, say, the man who claims to be woman could go into woman's space, he sport a sport, or service.
00:43:08
Speaker
i mean, they were That was effective, wasn't it? It was really, really effective, but they were wrong. And that's so it's been proven that they were wrong. It's essentially what's happened in the UK is it's been established that it that it was always there, that women were always biologically female. So anyone who was out there saying doing all of the saying of gender recognition certificate had primacy over but that was wrong.
00:43:30
Speaker
in australia and Can I just before you get to Australia, because I think this gender recognition piece is is ah bit confusing for people who don't follow this closely. Some people assume that in order to, some people assume that there are the people who just put on a dress and then they say they're a woman.
00:43:49
Speaker
They go, well, that's self ID. That obviously isn't right. But if someone then goes the next step and actually decides to go through the actual surgical process of transitioning, well, then they may actually become a biological woman because they've chopped something off and they've created something new and all that, hadd taken hormones and that sort of stuff.
00:44:12
Speaker
Two questions. A, did you need to go through that process to get the certificate in the UK? And B, does that biologically change your sex? Okay, so the first part of the question is did they have to do that for the gender recognition certificate? Yes. However, it wasn't that – there's no, like, you know, full thing that anyone has to go through. It can be one thing.
00:44:36
Speaker
So whatever your gender-affirming thing is, now it could be puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones. It could just be living as a woman for two years. You've got proof that you've lived. So that could just literally be wearing a dress for two years.
00:44:48
Speaker
Now it could be full frustration. food job. what There's so many different, it could just wearing makeup in public. There were so many different things of how you could get one. It's not like everyone's doing the whole thing, which then in terms of anyone, even who is going to the effort to do the, right to to do the whole thing,
00:45:05
Speaker
No, it does not change your sex. Like yeah we're we're sexed in every cell of our body. but our skeleton Our skeleton is male and female skeletons are different. Like no one's having surgery to remove the female skeleton and put in a male skeleton or vice versa. Like we're just, we're just completely different from the bottom up.
00:45:24
Speaker
And so all of these surgeries, i mean, these are just sometimes really barbaric cosmetic procedures that I mean, there's a huge argument about whether I think anyone should even be allowed to have them. I understand that there's a body autonomy argument, but we don't have body autonomy arguments for lobotomies.
00:45:42
Speaker
Nor should we for castrating, very vulnerable, confused, or fetishistic people. So, yeah, so no, I mean, it's just, it's, you can't change your sex.
00:45:53
Speaker
You just can't. And then the kind of a gender identity, as I said, you can have one, but what is it changing? It's, it's I mean, you... I always talk about it in the context of a religion because that's what it is.
00:46:05
Speaker
i mean, if you you can change from, i suppose if you change from Christianity to say Islam, like you transition, like there is there is genuinely something different that's happening there in your thoughts, like of what you're taking in But if you are a man that gets a boob job, you're just a man that got a boob job.
00:46:26
Speaker
Yeah. So the UK had these, had these certificates. What this court has basically said is regardless of those certificates, the law has always been, it has always been the case in law that sex is a matter of biology.
Identity Documents and Legal Sex
00:46:38
Speaker
Australia was different to that. I interrupted you. Go on. So in Australia, we don't have gender recognition certificates. all of All of the state's births, deaths, and marriages acts, which is what deals with birth certificates, have been amended to allow people to edit the sex marker on their birth certificate.
00:46:59
Speaker
So if you are a man that claims to be a woman, you can then go for in say in Queensland, the state that I live in, think it's $126, go and change your sex marker and your birth certificate. And basically the only rule is, we do have self-ID here, the only rule is you can only do it once a year, which is incredibly bigoted to the gender fluid people who would maybe need it done daily.
00:47:21
Speaker
So that's how absurd it is, basically. you can go so A man can go every year, he'll go and change his birth certificate to female this year, male next year, and basically alternate and still have more rights to so So in terms of Australia, what has to be done, there's a few different things.
00:47:40
Speaker
And I mean, I sort of, I live in this world every day. So I'm talking to obviously my legal team every single day. And I will say sometimes my barrister does speak to me as if I have PhD in law and I sit there and sit there like Google, I think I'm like, what is she talking about?
00:47:56
Speaker
So i when I am explaining this, i'm much make clear I'm not a lawyer. I'm just explaining it to the best of my ability. So we have a situation in Australia where yeah the definitions have been taken out, gender identity has been put in, and then because they're changing the sex marker on their birth certificate, it's effectively created this concept of legal sex.
00:48:17
Speaker
So sex, as we've always known, is biological. And for 99.9% of us, our identity documents reflect biology, our biology.
00:48:29
Speaker
However, because of this tiny minority that has is changing their birth certificates, it means that now none of us have a but biological sex on our identity documents.
00:48:40
Speaker
Now we're all just classified by legal sex. And legal sex takes primacy over biological sex. That was the the ruling in Tickle v Giggle. And that's how when the judge said that sex is changeable, it's like, great, the Australian newspaper headline, sex is changeable.
00:48:58
Speaker
he The judge is right in the sense that he's saying legal sex is changeable, which of course it is because it's just editing words on a piece of paper. But because it's not tethered to biological sex for that tiny percentage of the population, we the rest of us miss out.
00:49:15
Speaker
And he the judge decided that the in Australia, the ordinary meaning of sex is legal sex, which is nonsense. You don't say, okay, so like you we're both like single people. were You go to a bar. I'm like oh, I have a child, so I don't go to bars. people that often But once upon a time, this is how I spend a large portion of my weekends.
00:49:36
Speaker
You don't like walk into a bar and go like, what's their legal sex? You instinctively, this is a human evolutionary skill that we all have.
00:49:47
Speaker
where you can go male, female, male, female, and you make your decisions based on that. You don't sit there and go, which one out of everyone's the most attractive? It's just, and which ones are for you, it's which ones of the females are the most attractive, but which ones the men, whichever your sexual orientation goes with. so just like we And we make the biggest decisions of our lives based on this, like who we're going to spend our life with.
00:50:08
Speaker
So to sit there and say to an entire population that sex has no anchor to biology in our law, is wrong. It's just simply wrong.
00:50:20
Speaker
No one is living their life with legal sex being ah dictating their behavior unless you're a person who is lying about their sex. Because the only people it benefits, like legal sex is really only going to be something you care about if it's the opposite of your biological sex.
00:50:39
Speaker
So that's what we have to want to in Australia. So how do we do it? There's a few different ways. there's different sections of the law that really back us up here that are a few elements of the law that are still, of the Sex Discrimination Act that are anchored in reality.
00:50:56
Speaker
And that would be pregnancy and sport. Sport is actually still, even though they're letting men place, the sport part of the act does still have enough biology in there.
00:51:07
Speaker
So if someone was to bring a case specifically for that, it could actually be quite successful. Unless you're dealing with a captured judicial system, which is entirely possible. Part of our defense has been a constitutional challenge, which is to challenge the amendments in the first place.
00:51:24
Speaker
So our Sex Discrimination Act is pretty exclusively based on CEDAW, which is the UN's convention of the elimination of discrimination against women, which was created in 1979, signed by, I think it's 187 countries around the world, UK included.
00:51:40
Speaker
But the UK, I don't think ratified it in law. They're a signatory, but i don't think it's in their law. Same with America. The signatories but didn't do anything with it, whereas Australia did. We signed it in 1983 and then we enacted it in law with our Sex Discrimination Act in 1984.
00:51:54
Speaker
So Australia is therefore in a very good position to defend CEDAW. Now, trans activists have tried to get gender identity into CEDAW and therefore really fuck everyone up.
00:52:06
Speaker
for well over decade. They have not been successful because to get it ratified in CEDAW, 187 countries have to agree to it. And that was just never going to happen. We've got some countries that are just not captured by this, basically.
00:52:20
Speaker
So they were sort of our saving grace. However, there are a few documents that are ratified by CEDL, sort of just on the edges of it, but are included in it now.
00:52:32
Speaker
And one of them, I can never remember the name of it, but one of them has something in there where it says and like sexual orientation and other status. Now, the argument, say, for Australia's Sex Discrimination Commission is that that other status is gender identity.
00:52:48
Speaker
the judge in Tickle v. Giggle accepted that. So this is not my legal argument. This is just my argument in response to that is, well, if they meant gender identity, why didn't they say gender i identity? see Like other status was supposed to be, again, something anchored to something real. Like the example my lawyer always gives, like Kath, no Kath, is like migrant worker. Like that's something tangible. You know who a migrant worker is. Like It's not that gender identity is not tethered to anything.
00:53:16
Speaker
So what he you know you just can't go, oh other status means gender identity because you're still there going, like but but what do you mean? So ah strict in terms of whether Australia was even allowed, like whether the Gillard government was even allowed to do these amendments, I would say ah after hearing all of the arguments that we have is no.
00:53:36
Speaker
They weren't. There's two ways you can do things. And one of them is the external affairs power. And the other one is I can never remember this part of it. This is the part of the argument where i get this is gets really like legal heavy and boring. And this the part of the high court case.
00:53:50
Speaker
Basically, the the amendment to that law in 2013 was unconstitutional. Yeah. Yeah. And so that would, so that, and so therefore it should get it, get it out. So what can happen in Australia is, so we could, we could win just because, so we have three judges in this round.
00:54:08
Speaker
We could win. We only need two, but two of them side with us. then of course is that men, not only that men aren't women, or it could even just be If sex is what it matters in that scenario, it's sex that has weight over gender
Future Outlook and Advocacy for Sex-Based Rights
00:54:23
Speaker
identity. Because lots of different ways that you could sort of win it.
00:54:27
Speaker
But whichever side wins, the other side is going to take it to the high court. I remember in the AHRC days, like when I met my barrister then, and she said, when I was like deciding whether I would go like sort of just say no to them and even let like roll the dice of it going to federal court, she was like, it will end up in the high court, just so you know.
00:54:48
Speaker
And I just didn't, at the time, really, I didn't know what that meant, really. I really learned the hard way. And the high court will just be different, like a different case. ah In federal court, you're still dealing with the facts of the case, like the he said, she said of it all.
00:55:02
Speaker
Like one of the reasons why we weren't able to go straight to the high court is because there's still so many facts in dispute. For example, in his decision, the judge said that the provision to use giggle was that you had to appear like a cisgendered female. It's like,
00:55:17
Speaker
No, you said to be biologically female. was just on the basis of biological sex. That was it. Like, it's like, not only am i being told that this man's a woman, I'm being told of what the rules of my own startup were. were And I'm just like, no, you're just wrong. So you've got it before you can even go to the high court. You actually have to get all of the facts straighted out like straightened out.
00:55:34
Speaker
The high court in Australia is effectively an error in law court. So we would be going to the high court. If we lose this round, I really hope we don't. I would really love a win on the way to the high But anyway, we'll just deal with whatever comes.
00:55:48
Speaker
So far, I've won nothing. But if we if we got to the high court, but so we would be applying to go to the high court because set biological sex was given no weight in the Sex Discrimination Act, which is a pretty big error in law.
00:56:03
Speaker
The other side would effectively be going to the high court because if like if we were to win this round, it would be going saying, well, sex has been given weight. in the federal court and the Sex Discrimination Act. So it would be, so that you see right there the different arguments and of what the what the conflict actually is, is that one side just wants biological sex and reality to be acknowledged and the other side doesn't.
00:56:25
Speaker
So yeah, so I mean, overall, while I know that it's like we are climbing like a very steep, hard mountain, I'm actually incredibly optimistic about it. Partly because there is a political element to this case in the sense that in terms of us, because like politicians and just everyone like realizing what's going on and society realizing, like, hang on, you've you've changed something so fundamental to all of our lives and we don't want that.
00:56:52
Speaker
I've always known that I could get the court of public opinion on my side. And so as the more and more that that happens and say something like the UK Supreme Court decision helps, that's, that's the, I mean, I could kind of describe how happy I was when I, when I watched the decision live, cause I was like, more and more people are going to realize what's happened and go like, why would you even have to go to court for that? And then in Australia find out that we are in court for this right now. And we actually have so far have lost.
00:57:21
Speaker
And so it just, it starts to fall. pressure on on the institutions on the media and on politicians to start acknowledging reality so that's a really good thing I'm very optimistic in how like it's all going I think that as a globally we're going to defeat gender ideology and I whatever part that like I'm playing in that with this case, whether it's that it ultimately fixes it in Australia or it's just one of the big, like it creates the next stepping stone where like we it's just, we get there quicker.
00:57:52
Speaker
Like if we didn't have this case, it would be even harder. We'd be working with nothing. So this is sort of the thing that we have to work with at the moment to get what we want. So, yeah.
00:58:03
Speaker
How can people support you with with that fight ahead? Well, there's two ways. So, and both equally valuable. So we have a crowdfund. I'm crowdfunding it because as I said, startup, I didn't have over a million dollars just sitting around. We didn't win budget for that in our family and friends fundraising round of like, oh we may end up in court for knowing what a woman is.
00:58:26
Speaker
So I had to crowdfund the whole thing and it's literally been the generosity of people from or around the country and all around the world who've allowed me to be able to do it. um The first round cost over $500,000. This one's going to be about the same by the end of it.
00:58:38
Speaker
Like, it's just absurd. Might be just slightly under. We'll see. gigglecrowdfund.com. is the crowdfunding. It's also information about the case. And when there's updates, we put them on there. It's not that frequent that we have updates. that We don't like update going you know, ah another letter was sent today. It's like when there's like major updates. So we now know, we now know the dates. We know who the judges are. As i said, there's three of them. It's two women and one man.
00:59:06
Speaker
And then the other way for everyone to help is to tell people about it. As I said, the more people that know, the better. And so even if you're in a position where you're like, oh, I just, you know, cost of living is the other big political issue. id be Like, I just, I physically cannot do that at the moment. Totally fine.
00:59:24
Speaker
Please just let other people know that this is happening and that, that it affects it. Yeah. It does affect women and girls. But it it also affects men and boys. It it it just affects everybody.
00:59:36
Speaker
It even affects people who are trying to reject their sex because you know what? At the end of the day, once eventually they're going to need their sex-based rights and they're going to need freedom of speech, freedom of belief. They're not going to be told they can't believe in this stuff.
00:59:49
Speaker
Well, Sal, just even in the the social media posts that I've put out to promote this episode, it is really encouraging to see the amount of women, also men actually, who have been inspired by what you are doing,
01:00:02
Speaker
it hasn't been a easy, obviously, and there's still a pretty tough fight ahead. Thank you. I saw one person had commented and asked, like, what am i going to do next or what like what will happen with Giggle? And I just did want to say – so There's no reality where men who claim to be women will ever be on the app.
01:00:18
Speaker
I would just not do it. But there will be an app and everyone will know when there is. And that's what I will be doing after this. like I am going to go and do exactly what I set out to do, which is run woman-only platform.
01:00:32
Speaker
Like I'm not trying to build up any sort of thing. It's just that. ah Once I've won war on on knowing what a woman is, all the people who hate me will never have to hear from me again. It'll be quite lovely for them.
01:00:47
Speaker
Yeah, it's a strange, crazy detour. I don't imagine many founders would have to establish biological facts as part of their business plan, but obviously that's something you have to do. So thank you for doing everything that you're doing and and thank you for coming on the show.
01:01:01
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me.