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Episode 50: Steven E. Gordon
53 Plays1 year ago
On this week's episode, we sit down with animator, director, and character designer Steven E. Gordon! From working on some of our favorite Disney films to directing shows like X-Men Evolution and the new Disney Jr. show Arielle, Steven shares a few of the stories from his truly amazing career!
To see more from Steven be sure to check out his website HERE
DISCLAIMER: We are not an affiliate of the Walt Disney Company, nor do we speak for the brand or the company. Any and all Disney-owned audio, characters, and likenesses are their property and theirs alone.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to Sharing the Magic, the podcast that takes you on a journey through the enchanting worlds of Disney. Each week, we're joined by a special guest, whether they're a magician creating moments of astonishment or a Disney expert sharing the secrets behind the magic of the happiest place on Earth. Together we'll uncover the stories, inspirations, and behind the scenes tales that bring these worlds to life. So, get ready to be spellbound and transported to a place where dreams come true.
Meet the Hosts
00:00:54
Speaker
Hey, everyone. Welcome to this week's episode of the Sharing the Magic podcast. Matt here and I'll be one of your co-hosts this week as we sit down with another wonderful guest. But before we introduce you all to him, let's say hi to my friends and fellow co-hosts who are along for the ride. First up, Brian is on the pod tonight. How you been, Brian? Doing great. Very excited for tonight's guest. Looking forward to getting into it and glad to be here. We're all glad to be here. And I think this is the first time you've been on the pod, Brian, that you did not rub the weather in Florida in my face, because it's also warm and beautiful up here in New Jersey now. I'm intentionally trying to just eat back on that, because I know I've had you on the verge of tears a couple of times. So i just I'm just trying to keep it simple. Well, someone who sometimes also feels my pain because she is from the ah northern half of the ah country. We also have Lisa along for the fun tonight. Hi, Lisa.
00:01:52
Speaker
Hey, everyone. I am ah super excited to be here again. And yes, I'm so thankful for warm weather everywhere. Just excited to hear from our artists this evening. Yes. Joining in on the fun, we also have Joey. How have you been doing, Joey? Oh, man. Been good. Glad to be back ah talking to you guys and ah having ah on the show with a great guest. So I'm ready to do this. Awesome. It's always good to have you on and know, uh, you're not on it every week, but when you're here, it is a, it is a treat. Oh, I appreciate that. Thanks. I love being here. And rounding out the crew tonight.
Guest Introduction: Stephen E. Gordon
00:02:28
Speaker
We have of course, our goofy dupe himself, Jeff. yeah Hey, hey everyone. Hey, um, so, uh, Steve, I, uh,
00:02:36
Speaker
him I'm getting over COVID. My voice is I'm, I feel awful, but usually I ill sometimes we have a special guest. I like to to give him a goofy welcome. So this isn't my best. You know, my voice is very puny right now, but here we go. Well, gosh, well, howdy folks. Let's make goofy. We're real excited today. Cause we got a special guest. yeah um Well, it's Steve, he, Gordon, let's give him a big share in the magic. Welcome. Good to have you very good.
Stephen's Animation Journey Begins
00:03:12
Speaker
have you Now we know what goofy and COVID sounds like. So well it sounds like this.
00:03:19
Speaker
ah So as you can tell, we we are all very excited for tonight's guest. He's an animator who has worked on amazing projects from the Lord of the Rings to X-Men Evolution and many, many more. We are very pleased to welcome on to the show Stephen E. Gordon. Hi, Stephen. Nice to meet you all. Yeah, nice to meet you too. So we I know we were chatting a little bit before we hit record and you've been in contact with who we like to refer to as our ghost host, our fearless leader Barry. He unfortunately is not here with us. ah It's been a few weeks, but we honor his his legacy by asking all of our guests to start off our conversations to just tell us a little bit about where it all began. How did you get into animation? How did that lead you maybe to Disney and other parts of your career?
00:04:07
Speaker
It started way, way back in 1977, probably before any of you were around, I'm guessing. No, but that's very nice of you. Okay. okay yeah but I was in high school, and starting to get my portfolio together for to submit to art schools. Specifically, Art Center in Pasadena was the the goal. I'd already been taking some afternoon classes there here and there. So my art teacher, who was also so more or less my advisor in high school, was you stumbled across an advertisement in a trade paper looking for portfolio submissions. And so she thought it would be a great idea for me to submit my really clunky, awful portfolio as it stood then.
00:05:01
Speaker
and get a professional opinion on it and to, you know, by getting and possibly get take a little of the wind out of myself because, you know, I was ah the the art kid in high school. I was always one, at least one, and I was at in my current high school in my senior year. So unfortunately, I guess even though she was a professional artist, more or less on her own, I guess she didn't understand that A, no one gives you portfolio reviews when you submit. And so that kind of fell apart. And then on top of it, I got the job.
00:05:37
Speaker
So that kind of ruined the other plan B of hers. So and I did get humbled later on once I saw all the other artists that were hired at the same time and how much better and more professional they were. But either way, so I was hired while I was still in my senior year high school and the school bent over backwards to make it so that I could still graduate and and take this job on. So I I finished up the rest of my requirements via adult school in the evenings and graduated with my class. But in the meantime, I was now working 40 hours a week, at least, for Ralph Bakshi on Lord of the Rings.
00:06:22
Speaker
That's kind of how it all started for me. and And I kind of figured maybe it was just a summer job or you a temporary job or whatever, a great way to earn some extra money or whatever. And then from there I'd go back and finish and go to art school and whatnot. And that did not happen. So I and you know i had dated a one of the Ink and Paint girls on Lord of the Rings and she was the daughter of one of the animators. And she, you know, he was an old animator from, well, he was one of Mill Call's assistants from back at Disney, Sam James. And it was dating her for not long, a couple of times or whatever. And so she, you know, it asked me, so what are you what are your plans? And I said, well, I'm gonna get out, you know, as soon as this is over, I'm gonna get into illustration and go to school and become an illustrator and whatever. And she laughed and said, no one gets out of animation.
00:07:15
Speaker
Once you're in, you're stuck. And as it turns out, she was accurate, at least about me. So. but be and I think that's absolutely amazing that in, you know, you're going through high school and it's great that the school helped you do that, right? They were like, we understand that the opportunity that this is. And I mean, there is numerous stories of kids just trying to get that first job. So for you to land something like that on really like your first shot, you're giving your portfolio out and and getting something like Lord of the Rings, which is amazing. What was was animation, because you're telling us you had the portfolio, you were the art kid. Before that, before you got to high school, was there something that you that drew you to animation or drew you to illustration before that point?
00:07:59
Speaker
Well, illustration, yeah, I had no interest in getting into animation. Okay. um I'd seen, it may have been prior, it was prior to that, ah wizards had come out, and I don't know if that was when I was in my 11th grade or 12th grade or whatever, but I remember going to see a wizard, and that was the first time I thought, oh, this is cool, this is not, you know, silly little talking animals and stuff. So I found like that was the first time I think I reacted to animation is being Yeah, this is interesting. But even then I had no interest. I was still I was gonna, you know, you book cover illustrations and everything, and you know, like that, which was
00:08:36
Speaker
sort of viable in that time. Not now, obviously, but back in those days, it was a viable career, sort of. And so I was much more interested in that. Animation is just like, yeah, but this is a way to earn money, you know, at this time. yeah As it turns out, I seem to have a knack for it. I moved up very quickly and ended up, by the time Lord of the Rings was finished, I actually got an animator's credit on it. so i you know actually did you Most of it was all rotoscope, but ah you know good enough so that i could I had enough footage and whatever. and Ralph liked me a lot, but he you went ahead and gave me that credit. So that was a nice way to start. Is it safe to say you were the youngest animator on that project?
00:09:24
Speaker
Oh, easily. Yeah. In fact, one i had I pretended, and in those days you could pretend, that I was not 17, which is what I was. But Ralph later on said that if he'd known I was 17, he wouldn't have hired me. ah guess I guess he had started his career when he was 17 as well, I guess, and he realized that it wasn't the best way to start. So, yes, but ah yeah, it was, a yeah, I was easily, most of the other people had were either had been professional artists doing other things, or they had just graduated from Arts Center. A lot of them, he hired a lot of people from Arts Center, and not so many from CalArts.
00:10:04
Speaker
But art setting was kind of like the place to hire people that seem to understand how to get work done in those days. What was that experience like? Just as the young guy, your first job? What what is that like? Well, well, it is great. I mean, you know, i I had no idea what I was doing at any moment of time. Didn't know anything about it. So I just kind of stumbled into everything and it worked out very well for me. And like I said, I ah started but basically he was trying to hire people to help with the orcs. ah If you're familiar with the film. Yeah.
00:10:40
Speaker
Definitely. A lot of the orcs would mostly being done by what he was calling roto photo, which is you do high con, you shoot live action, you do high con cells of them or photographs of them. And then, you know, he needed someone to go in and add claws and teeth and that type of stuff with a like a grease pencil onto the photos. And then they would Xerox those photos and wipe down anything that wasn't necessary. So f but I happened to be done with whatever I was doing at the time when one of the animators upstairs was in need of an in-betweener. So the woman I was working for, Retta Shaw, suggested that I, Retta Bishop, it's been over years, suggested that they use me, give me a try. So I went in and I started doing learning how to in-between for one of the animators.
00:11:38
Speaker
And then and shortly thereafter, once I was upstairs with the animators, the actual animators and stuff, Ralph came by with a hundred foot scene that he wanted done. And he knew that it was just going to be a bear. And he didn't feel that it would be anything that someone could screw up or didn't know what they were doing like me. So he just gave it to me. And ah basically I did it from beginning to end as kind of whenever I didn't have in-betweens to do or whatever. So it ended up fine. And then slowly after that, once that worked out well, I don't remember how long it took me. It must have taken me forever to do it because I think I had to do every drawing. and again There was two horses running with Aragorn and Gandalf sitting on top. So it was just every drawing had to be done by hand.
00:12:27
Speaker
And then he started giving me more work. And I stayed on doing animation from that point on, even though it was rotoscoped, but I was learning how to do enough stuff while I was doing it.
Stephen's Disney Experience
00:12:37
Speaker
I was assimilating and, you know, getting it through, you know, just being thrown into the middle of the lake type of thing, you know, swimming that way. So yeah, that's the way to learn. Yeah. So it wasn't those days, not necessarily now, but yeah. Steve, i would I have a question for you. that The um beginning of your career with Disney, it looks like you were about seven years into your career working. That would put you at about 24 years old going to work with Disney Animation. And, you know, that this podcast, we obviously talk to a lot of animators and hear stories of who inspired them, who they'd learned from, who they got the joy of working with.
00:13:21
Speaker
throughout the, you know, ever impressive history of of Disney animation that exists out there. Do you have a particular story or person that is a 24 year old coming in to Disney, getting to work on the Black Cauldron, Great Mouse Detective Oliver and Company? Do you have a story of just that moment of awe that you were working with somebody that you had respect for or admired or just a huge lesson that you took from someone while working under the Disney umbrella? Well, I had been hired from Disney for Disney right after Fire and Ice, which is, I think, why they hired me ah because they had a lot of henchmen that were designed by Mike Blug.
00:14:10
Speaker
I don't know if you guys know who he is, but and he had worked for Ralph on Lord of the Rings and stuff, but um I immediately started working with Andreas Deja and Phil Nibelink. those were kind of the two guys that I found myself working mostly with back and forth, as well as the directors and whatnot. Unfortunately, by that point, the only one of the nine old men that were still there was Eric Larson. And he was pretty much working with the assistants and the in-betweeners trying to get them to come up to par and working mostly with anyone that was working, not on the cauldron, but on,
00:14:51
Speaker
Mickey's Christmas Carol, which was kind of happening simultaneously at the time, so I never really had much interaction with him. And I think, frankly, the little interaction I had with him, I gathered that he didn't appreciate me coming in off the street as well. So there was a little bit of that type of thing. you know And i was I got a lot of that from some of the people at the time. you know Now it's all water under the bridge and I'm friends with all those people. but And I didn't even recognize it in fact because I had no idea that it was a big deal.
00:15:23
Speaker
But I got a lot of a kind of backdoor grief at Disney at the time. They took me yeah a little while before I recognized that that's what it was. But yeah and but at the time, you know I was enamored with, obviously, Mill Call's work and Lounsbury's work and a lot of the old guys, but never had anything other than the ability to go look at their work in the morgue and stuff and whatnot and on film. But I never had any interaction with him. I wish I had, but yeah there were a couple of the older assistants that were still there. In fact, ah wrote a bishop had moved back over there.
00:16:02
Speaker
And was she was the woman who was in charge of the all the punks, like me, at the beginning of Lord of the Rings. And now she was back over there as a key assistant and stuff. So it was good to see it from her face. And a couple of people like that. And there's some of the older assistants that were still there, like Walt. And I'm trying to remember who else. But yeah they were still there. some of Very few older animators were there at that point. and you know this is after the whole blue exodus and you know they were definitely trying to find people to help work on this film and they were having trouble because this was a film of a much higher caliber and they could have definitely have used a better draftsman than what they were seeing in in general so I don't know if that answered your question or not but
00:16:52
Speaker
I think that's an awesome answer. I think we just like to hear the history of where you come from and what you experienced. And, you know, that's one of the fascinating things about this for me is just learning what you went through. And to that note, did you have a specific style that you had focused on, that you learned to alter over time? You know, did you transition your own creativity? Yeah, sure. Yeah, well, I think any time you work on a new project, especially when it's a 2D project, you kind of assimilate some of what the design sense is. I mean, back on Fire and Ice, obviously, i I learned a lot of Frazetta nuances and whatnot. And then when I went to work on Lord of the Rings, I was ah picked up on a lot of the Disney look.
00:17:43
Speaker
I mean, now it's just sort of part of my style in general, my own personal style, you know, having a little bit of Disney flair to it and whatnot. And, you know, a lot of it it was from Andreas, you know, and Phil Nibelink was ah definitely someone I paid attention to. I mean, he drew differently than much more graphically than I did, but you know, still, you know, his sense of timing and animating and stuff and whatnot. But, you know, I kind of, once again, I was kind of thrown in the deep end on one of the rooms. And i it took me a little while to get my feet under me. You know, originally I was doing the cat, Dalban's cat.
00:18:23
Speaker
until because they didn't have any of the henchmen ready at that point. And then they they started giving me some henchmen. And then I ended up kind of hitting my stride when um I was given the whole escape from the castle sequence, which involved henchmen and involved Taron and I long way and yeah creeper. I guess a little bit. I don't think girdy was with him at that point. I don't remember now, but I think is I long way and Taron and I was kind of doing a lot of the action stuff at that point. um So yeah, I was picking up a lot of the I found myself grabbing onto a lot of the.
00:19:05
Speaker
the Disney theory of cloth and hair and all that other stuff that I i had no knowledge of prior to that. It was great to be picking up on some that more traditional animation because ah yeah know obviously working for Ralph, it was catch as catch can, you did what you needed to do. And sometimes it would it was maybe some Disney looking stuff and a lot of times it wasn't. You mentioned earlier that you never thought that you were going to get into animation and then being told like, well, once you get in, you never get out. And you're like, yeah, that's that's kind of happened.
Working on 'X-Men Evolution'
00:19:38
Speaker
Was there any point where that mindset changed for you? Like that i I never thought I was going to be an animation. I want to do this other stuff. Did it change to like, I love animation. Was there a project where it really kind of turned a corner where you're like, oh, I could do this for a long time.
00:19:55
Speaker
Well, I think actually it even happened during one of the rings where I was enjoying it. I enjoyed doing the 2D drawing. I mean, I've never even, you know, when I was trying to get an illustration, which would probably have hurt me at some point, is I was never a background person. I was a character person. So animation kind of fit right in my sweet spot with doing you know drawing people and drawing just the characters and letting someone else worry about the layout and the background and whatnot. So that worked out great for me. But then just going through and you know getting hired by Ralph several times,
00:20:31
Speaker
And then being made the animation director on Fire and Ice kind of helped cement all of that, and especially with the money coming in. I mean, that was what she was referring to. But it was like the money for an artist is so hard, usually, that animation is comparatively steady. With, you know, most artists, it's trying to freelance ah for a career is just like, boy, what a struggle. and But once you're in animation, and if you do well, maybe not this current time right now, but in general, I mean, I've been doing this for like 47 years or something now, and very rarely have I had time off. So it was you it's a consistent career.
00:21:12
Speaker
So yeah, but I did find it was something that I enjoyed doing. In most of the jobs I've had, in one way or the other, I had to find something that I liked doing, even if it wasn't a great gig. And there was always something that it was like, I enjoy drawing this character, or I enjoy drawing, doing this, I enjoy directing this, or you know, there's always a way to find enjoyment out of it when you're doing something with art. I'm going to let somebody else jump in. and one side i did One more question about Lord of the Rings. says It's a great story. and You mentioned that you love being ah you know working on characters. Was there a specific character that you just enjoyed drawing more on Lord of the Rings? On Lord of the Rings, it was not done.
00:21:55
Speaker
in fact even on Cauldron it wasn't done back those days of Disney where you'd do one character and you'd be assigned one character. Lord of the Rings it is just you were assigned scenes. yeah Whoever was in the scene you did. I was fortunate enough not to get the entire fellowship often. ah but I'd say 90% of the time I was doing aorn yeah or horses, people on horseback. It was kind of my thing. And, you know, okay some reason I fell into horses very easily. So that's been kind of fun.
00:22:28
Speaker
Animal animation has been kind of a mainstay of love my career. So, okay. I just wanted to ask one more Lord of the Rings question. I'm sorry no so that's That's one of those ah fandoms that we were talking about before that we heard about like, yes yeah no no it's it's ah In my opinion a remarkable film it's a shame that it couldn't have been finished And it's a shame that, you know, he kind of had to cut corners and he went for a style all that didn't necessarily translate very well. And it's one of those things was like, OK, you're too deep into it. But I think there are sequences in there that were even better than Jackson's version, in my opinion. I think the death of Boromir and Lord of the Rings was far superior in Ralph's version than Jackson's version. All right. I will back off. No more fanboying. I know Joey's on mute in there. He's ready to go.
00:23:19
Speaker
Oh, yeah well i'm I'm just enjoying listening. I love just stories and behind the scenes, just anything on everything. But I love the X-Men and, you know, you know, grew up with ah the 90s cartoons and then forward into the movies. Then I remember when X-Men and Revolution came out, that was like the first ah show right after the movie and it kind of mirrored both you know the comics and the movie kind of. So I just wanted basic questions is what was it like kind of ah working on something that was bridging both a live-action movie and previous cartoon? Well, I mean, hey, X-Men Evolution is one of the better gigs I've had because I was not only the character designer, but I was also the director, one of the directors who for the first two seasons, at least. And I also did a lot of animation for it, actual 2D animation. You know, whenever you saw them dancing, some of the characters dancing, it was me doing that animation. so
00:24:17
Speaker
One of my good friends, Boyd Kirkland, was the producer on the show. So he hired me to be a director and I ended up, at that point I hadn't seen X-Men and God, since the sixties. You know, I didn't even know who Wolverine was really. yeah you know You know, I kind of vaguely understood because I had watched the show, what little I'd seen at the nineties show because of the poor animation. I had trouble watching any of it. I mean, I'm kind of a snob as far as animation goes. And there's a, if If it's not at least as well animated as I could have done it, then I have trouble watching. so and But we didn't know that there were certain things in the 90s show we wanted to go completely in the opposite direction of. Like Rogue, for example. mean we you know That was like a big thing. It's like, A, she's not going to have the superpowers, which was kind of ordained early on. She was just going to be Rogue taking powers from people.
00:25:14
Speaker
which made her a lot better character as far as we were concerned, made her more vulnerable and more interesting as opposed to her superwoman. And also we decided early on that she wasn't gonna be this the Southern Belle Dolly Parton character with the humongous press and the befant hairdo and the sweet Southern Belle voice and whatnot. but So we went the complete opposite and made her trailer trash and goth And when that seemed to be that was the first character that nailed what we wanted to do in general, then the others started to come easier. So that was when we landed on her and no one seemed to complain about her because Marvel was pretty much hands off at that point. there were
00:26:00
Speaker
toy company more than they were a comic company. So they kind of left us alone, but for the most part. So, you know, once we decided that that she was the way to go, everything else kind of fell into place and, you know, and the idea that we wanted to kind of cue a little bit closer to the early comics where there were students and stuff. kind of gave us a basis for where we were going and stuff. And we kind of pushed for the soap opera aspect of it, as opposed to, gee, they have to fight and beat each other up all the time and constantly, which is kind of more of the 90s show where everyone was yelling at each other and fighting constantly.
Industry Evolution & Future Hopes
00:26:35
Speaker
yeah We wanted to make it more about the characters and the situations that we kind of left leaned into that more than anything, so.
00:26:44
Speaker
Very cool. Great show. That was good. Good. Thank you. Yeah. A lot of fans. I liked it too. Yeah. I remember that. I remember it so well. I used to watch it all the time. Yeah. I mean, Joe, you got, you got to ask him about it. Wow. What's that? You kind of cut out there. Stephen, have you seen X-Men 97? Uh, I watched about three quarters of the first episode. Okay. And then my animation snob yeah doctor kicked it and I just couldn't watch it. That kind of ties into my question that I kind of want to ask.
00:27:23
Speaker
user there on yeah go Well, okay, so my question is, i I get you. I understand that. i I struggled with that a little bit too. And it's it feels like such a transitionary period in in animation right now, because there's all this new technology. There is all these the new capabilities that we've never had before. you know There's a lot more to me when I watch like that. there's a Using the new processes, there's a lot more consistency to the design and and the animation. Now the the the shadow side of that is sometimes it feels very flat. It doesn't have the heart.
00:28:03
Speaker
You know, but I want to ask a positive question, not a negative one. And I'm thinking my positive question is like, what are I know it's a weird kind of transition area. I'm with you where eyes I look at that, ah you know, and I'm like, how many. You know, things down my Facebook is like comparing the old animation of X-Men 97, you know, the old one to the new one. It's like, and some people, most people are like, well, the old one's much better. And, and I think there's, there's, there's definitely, that's this very true.
00:28:35
Speaker
But also, you know, there there were scenes in the old, you know, X-Men cartoon where I'm like, yeah what's happened to Wolverine's face? Like, you just never know. Like, there's there's sometimes an animation you'll get like in the traditional there's less consistency, you know. But but here's OK. Here's my question. All right. I've been I've been thinking about it. what are your hopes for the future of animation as an art form? And it's not like, and when I say that it's not, look, we're we're heading into a direction. It's not gonna stop. you know it And I would love, hey, let's just get up you know a piece of paper and and a pen you know a pencil and let's just go at it how it used to be. Unfortunately, I'm like, that's just not gonna,
00:29:18
Speaker
It's not going to happen. so So is there is there anything you think like if we could if we could take what we have now, where we're going, but just make it better and to actually you know evolve it? What do you think? Yeah, I think there's some great stuff out there. Yeah. And this is from a a snob. yeah i think I think Blue Eye Samurai. Wonderful. So good. From top to bottom. Yeah. The and the animation, the design, the and storytelling, everything. Yeah. The direction. I think wonderful. That's it a high mark, high water mark example of what we can be doing.
00:29:56
Speaker
uh i think arcane is great as well you know and obviously spider verse and you know features but i mean yeah features are different because there's there can be humongous amounts of money involved so there's no never any excuse for bad money ah that being or a bad film being made in features at least especially not bad animation you know they i wished they had kept doing 2d Yeah, me too. and I wish that even though they they acknowledge the fact that audiences seem to like CG better, or at least, you know, back that when they made that decision, I wish they had kept a unit going and doing 2D, just for legacy purposes for no other reason, even if it took them 10 years to make a 2D film. So release it.
00:30:44
Speaker
Yeah, you know, do it, release it, do it with a relatively small crew and budget or whatever. And then you never know, maybe one of those would have been the hit they needed. Oh, I love that idea. Yeah. like Unfortunately, I'm not the person in charge, but I think that would have been fun. Great. I think I could have kept the Disney legacy going. Yeah. What I heard was Disney like they actually forgot how to animate their own stuff. And so they're like, they did it. did Is that true? They did kind of a call to say, hey, did old time. Hey, all the old Disney animators. Can you come back and teach us how to
00:31:21
Speaker
Draw, you know, I don't know. I haven't been to Disney since Oliver. So I can't speak specifically. I know people that are there and we talk and stuff. And I know that, you know, I think they kept a couple of people there, like Eric and um met Mark Henn, I think for a while. I don't know what they were doing necessarily, yeah but I hope they were but teaching, but I don't know that they were i you because I know Disney got rid of everything. They destroyed the pipeline. So when they did that anniversary short,
00:31:54
Speaker
ah The magic of Disney or whatever it was called. I think they had most of it had to be done outside I don't I assume that a couple of people may maybe Eric and mark or whatever could do some of it I don't know but most of it had to be freelance out or you know Sent to other studios to do because they no longer have that pipeline ah Yeah, and I think that would be the big problem with Disney right now is the infrastructure is not there for 2D and it would take a massive amount of work and money to create recreate that infrastructure. yeah It can be done and if anyone can afford to do it, Disney could, but I suspect they probably just don't see the point.
00:32:34
Speaker
Yeah. I loved your little, your, your idea of like, Hey, you could do a little indie project within the Disney structure and, and grassroots and build up the 2d animation all over again. That gate. If you all are have passion of heart and you want to go at it and see what you can, I think it was a mistake that they did. The last film was a Winnie the Pooh film or whatever. I think if if they were serious about trying to give 2D a shot, make it up, make a 2D, make up 2D instead of CG or something, make something that is like, wow, this is a really great project, not a ah rerun of a cool movie.
00:33:10
Speaker
no so i No, I don't bother. Lisa, hey hey did anyone else have a question? I i i do have a question. I have a few, but I will start with one. I know you i having a house full of graphic novel readers. I hear that you may have dabbled in some of that and have something coming out soon. Would you care to elaborate? yeah Well, yeah, I have done. It's kind of been a, I don't know, selfish, but a thing that I've been toying with the idea of, you know, I'm getting close to retirement from the industry. And as it turns out, the industry is maybe getting close to retiring me. Just the industry in general was in a weak shape.
Exploring Graphic Novels & Teaching
00:33:59
Speaker
So I've been, for the last, you know, i don't know maybe five or so years, been toying with the idea of getting into comics and graphic novels. I did have a graphic novel that came out, was it last year, I guess, called Mark of Death that were but was basically written by a couple of screenwriters that were using it as a pitching tool. and they went ahead and published it and, you know, but you know, is available for sale and whatnot. And I've also you know done a couple other small projects, you know, I did a story and a jungle tales of Tarzan, I did a piece of it, I did some online stuff for Burrows Inc, which is the Tarzan people are the Tarzan people. And I also have done some miscellaneous stuff in various tribute books and whatnot. But I also have a
00:34:49
Speaker
A comic ah graphic novel that I'm working on based on an early pop novel pop story about a werewolf curse of the werewolf with Paris. I believe it's called guy and door or something like that. And Mark Ellis is writing it. Yeah, you know, I'm doing some miscellaneous projects, we're in the middle of that, and that that will probably be yeah yeah i don't know because neither we're just kind of doing it in our spare time, both of us and stuff. So hopefully, that'll come out at some point soon. But you know, we're still probably about a dozen or so pages away from, you know, even roughing it out still. So
00:35:28
Speaker
And doing some research about you, Steve, I saw an interview where you had once made a statement about the possibility to do a like a step by step book on storyboarding and animation. Is that something that you kind of. ever wanted to actually pursue to help keep that legacy going for people that were still interested in just learning some of those pure skills. Because I think one of the things that I find fascinating about Disney right now, and you just touched on it a little bit.
00:36:00
Speaker
is that they've lost a lot of the originals and the original concepts. And, there and you know, Joe Rody has been brought back into Imagineering to help train newer, younger generations to help bring stuff back to what the creative mindset of Disney was about. Is that something you envision yourself trying to leave a legacy into your industry with a book or or some kind of you know teaching to bring that to another generation? It's possible. you know I don't know that I'm a teacher, per se.
00:36:37
Speaker
yeah A lot of my peers and stuff have done that, they've jumped into it, mostly out of necessity and stuff. But I don't know that, you know, whenever I do talk to people, you know, like I do CTNX every year or whatever, I talk to a lot of students and whatnot, you know, I try to guide them and i can I can look at specific work that they're doing and guide them and say, this is how to do this and how to do that and whatnot. I don't know. and i You know, maybe if I sat down long enough with the deaf spare time might be able to figure out lessons or instructions on how to actually do things.
00:37:12
Speaker
You know, like ah right now I'm directing and which is sort of in a way teaching, you know, I have a couple of storyboard artists and I have to give them notes and whatnot and show them how I want things to be corrected and work and stuff. So it's in that vein. So it's a possibility. I haven't given any serious thought to it because frankly, I don't have the time right now. And you know to do it, I think I would have to be completely work-free, I think, and focused on it. We'll see. Anything's possible.
00:37:48
Speaker
Is that something you would find joy in? Is that something you enjoy doing is sharing the talents that you've developed over the years with others? Do you enjoy? Yeah, I like talking to people about it and showing them how to improve their work. You know, I constantly get hit up on LinkedIn and stuff and asked to, you know, get these questions and whatnot. No, I'm more than glad to share whatever I can with people. Right now, frankly, I'd feel a little weird about encouraging too many people to get involved in animation just because it's such a bad time for animation. Hopefully that won't continue and at some point by the time they're ready to actually look for work.
00:38:32
Speaker
things will have improved, but right now animation is such a shallow time that it's, you know, I can't see encouraging too many people, you know, when I do get hit up by these students that are saying, gee, how do I get into this, you know, get a job at a studio? I was like, I don't know. It's hard right now. Even people that have been in the business for you know decades that are having trouble getting jobs, so it's tough. But yeah I do like encouraging and talking to them and showing them how to improve themselves. I think there's a lot of bad habits that students are coming out of school with, and it'd be nice if they could get good habits.
00:39:14
Speaker
and stuff, especially for storyboarding, you know, usually storyboarding at least has been, if you can make money doing storyboards, then you don't have time to be teaching it. And I think that's one of the problems with a lot of the people that are teaching storyboards. So I'm not saying all, I mean, sure, I'm sure there are a lot of good ones out there. I don't want to degrade anyone. But I think I'm seeing a lot of people coming out with samples. It's like, wow, I don't know what you were taught.
Reflecting on Impactful Projects
00:39:45
Speaker
That's not good. yeah I believe it. I believe it.
00:39:49
Speaker
um I got another fanboy question. I usually try to get some really substance but I'm just fanboying right now because I was going through your IMDB and one one of my all-time favorite shows and not just animated shows but shows in general it was gargoyles and I saw that you were there was in your profile so I'm just curious like ah what you worked on on gargoyles and how that was. ah The producer at that time was Frank Parr, who was a friend who I've worked with often. He was one of the my co-directors on X-Men Evolution as well. He had called me because they were having trouble with them character the character design work. And so he wanted me to kind of give it a it kind of pass through a lot of them and kind of loosen up the characters a little bit.
00:40:39
Speaker
especially since they kind of were very similar to Nightcrawler and stuff in a way with the the animal anatomy and whatnot. And basically I spent more time yeah kind of helping work out Domona's design. So that that was about the extent of what I did for them. It you know wasn't a lot of work, but I can kind of you know make claim to having helped Domona's design. I heard design was awesome though. Yeah, but especially with the yeah, I got her action figure somewhere. right I know me too. I do too. I'm like all the Neko ones. Yeah, I got them all. and Yeah, great show again. I mean even even with a little bit of
00:41:20
Speaker
your your touch on it, I mean, yeah. it Yeah, I think in general, I was busy. I don't know what I was on at the time, both times, but that that was kind of a freelance gig. And, you know, I always like to help out friends and stuff. And I you know often like to take especially fun projects like that, where it's just like, oh, yeah, I love to kind of goose up that character design a little bit for you. And so a lot of times I get hot or had been hired to do expressions and attitudes and stuff on characters, because I've got having an animation background. makes that kind of a useful. now and weigh out A lot of shows these days do not seem to understand the expressions and how it helps. Well, her I could go on a whole tangent on on Damona, because, you know, just what's embedded in my head, especially because she's of all the gargoyles like she she had, to it tea it seems to me like she had to be
00:42:13
Speaker
Given the most detail because she's such a complex character and and she's she's the Mona She's at one hand. She's demonic but on one hand she's she's not she's she's There's complexity to her goodness and feel her pain you do and and then even just the design of her Itself it's like she looks and sort of like, you know Tarzan and Jane like she had this like, you know, what whatever hurt her her i mean just the way she was designed was like she looked like she's been in the wild for a little bit too long but she was still um not feral like she was still civilized and to hide from a like to balance that out as a character design that that I mean I think that there's complexity there so anyways that's my that's where I'm geeking out I'm like I think the show was I did not see all of it, but what I did see in the show I think Greg Weissman and that's far and such an excellent job I think they brought a depth and interest to it. That was I'm expecting for a Disney show So in a day, you know, I thought the gummy bears was complex, but you know Gummy bears was complex. I love that show, too
00:43:30
Speaker
Yeah, but that was an unexpected. Gummy Bears, which I did a lot of storyboard work on stuff and some design work, was was an an odd duck because it was started off as a stupid idea and turned into something very interesting and complex with the mythology and everything else going on. I just, we're for fanboying. I'm going to do this for Barry too a little bit because he's not here. you know You mentioned Oliver was your last Disney like feature that you that you worked on. And I know a lot, you know when we think of these Disney animated movies, we like to put them into what we call ages. right so there's And the dark ages consist of some of the movies right that you that you worked on. You have Black Cauldron and and and Oliver. And I will say that all of us love those movies.
00:44:22
Speaker
like we we don't like Robin Hood and and all like we've all said and Barry if he was here who would say I love black cauldron like I had to I just have to say that for for him because he would be like I he doesn't understand the hate he loves the you know he thinks it could be this complex story and and the characters are awesome so He does think that that stuff is great. We all think that that is great. And I think or I remember reading and an article as we're doing our research that you did mention that after Oliver, you move on to to do other work for other places and then you go, oh, shucks, I miss the Renaissance. like yeah i ah I always tell people that that I was smart enough to leave before Disney actually hit their stride. I got out before it got good. i
00:45:13
Speaker
ah you know if we're're We're fanboying here a little bit, right? Is there a film is there one film in the Renaissance era that you were like, I would love to have worked on that film? Yeah, I would love to have worked on a lot of those during the Renaissance. I would love to have worked on Lion King because, you know, my animal animation, I felt I would have fit in real well. Beauty and the Beast, especially Tarzan. I mean, I thought I would have been a perfect fit for that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they somewhat like that. Yeah, that I felt that I couldn't, you know, it didn't occur to me until later, because, you know, I left, not great terms there. So never occurred to me until later that see, you know, I could have probably gotten an Andreas to get me back in if I really wanted to, but
00:46:06
Speaker
didn't even occur to me until my maybe a couple of years ago, frankly. Not that I wasn't busy doing other things or whatnot, but I've been great to have been more working on some of those classics, right you know the new classics and whatnot. so So of course, aside from the the monetary success of these Renaissance films, as the you know the snob, as you keep saying when it comes to animation, is that, in your opinion, when Disney, is that also when they hit their stride in that that sense, not just the monetary success of of the movies, but the animation, or was there something else behind why you think they were so successful?
00:46:45
Speaker
Well, I a i think they started they learned how to tell stories. And I think a lot of that had to do with ah the songwriters. I think they were... It was Howard. It was Howard. Yeah. I mean, to be fair, I think they they understood the whole three act movement, the want versus need. but you're Mostly, I mean, and yeah, you know, you I've worked on enough story crews where it's just like, you'd be shot how many people didn't understand want versus need. And, you know, obviously, Howard dead and it was, I don't know that he ever articulated that to them, not having been there. But it got in there. And sometimes he was off to that, you know, I understand his original ah version of Aladdin was kind of all over the place and they had to be pulled together. So whatever, but still,
00:47:40
Speaker
Either way, animation wise, I think it fluctuated as far as level. I think Little Mermaid had great moments. I think what Glen Keane was doing was great and miscellaneous stuff like that. i think But it had some really weak stuff. I think Beauty and Beast had a ton of weak stuff in it, unfortunately. I think they were kind of all over the place and they weren't quite ready with a crew that could handle that. I think, you know, obviously Beast was done well, but Belle was all over the map as far as stuff. There were some good people that were working on her and some really like, God, is that Belle? Good thing they had the calories right. You know, ah I didn't come. I think rescuers Down Under was probably of those early films, their best animated film. I think that was solid from but beginning to end. Right.
00:48:34
Speaker
And you know then it varied all over the place. I think at some point they did start to hit the stride. I think ah they started to recognize the fact that the use of live action helps and stop being coy about that. you know When I went to Disney, boy, live action? You do not do that. you you The whole thing when Ralph came out with Lord of the Rings and was announcing to everyone in the world that he was using live action for reference, the Disney artists got so freaking pissed about it. yeah because he was revealing secrets that they didn't want anyone to know. And now, you know, now you go on the internet and see live action of Tinkerbell and Cinderella and all the other ones. Oh, yeah. They were not.
00:49:17
Speaker
quite the purest that they wanted everyone to believe they were. And I think that had a mark at Disney when I was there on Black Cauldron, like I was saying, the idea of using live action is like, no, we don't do that. but This film could really benefit from that though. yeah What I ended up having to do on my own, a lot of the stuff on Cauldron was ah filming my assisted, you know, and just kind of say, okay, stop and do a quick sketch, you know, God have him, especially during the castle escape, where it was two characters, how they interacted, whether running through the castle and how
00:49:56
Speaker
They were overlapping and stuff. You know, I had him and I think his girlfriend at the time or whatever that he was working there. They both, you know, they they kind of ran that way. I was able to figure out the choreography of two people running hand in hand and stuff. And that worked out well. And then by the end of the film, I convinced the director to actually let me shoot some live action for the very last shot of all the characters walking away. You know, we had a couple of ah the assistants or whatever, you know, we filmed them and we did the whole Lucy graph and, you know, whatnot to do that as live action. So that felt that shot of them walking away from camera was actually
00:50:36
Speaker
more or less rotoscope, but it was live action referenced. so yeah But yeah, I think at some point Disney started to realize during the Renaissance that live action is not such a bad idea. so No. think Yeah, but, you know, overall, I forgot what the question was, that but, you know, hopefully I answered somewhere in there. You say yeah he definitely he definitely did. I mean, listen, of course you can, you know, oh, I got out right before the Renaissance era, but it's not like you said, you it's not like you weren't working on all these other projects because you do have ah just scrolling through your your IMDB, right? You're working on a lot of the other films that aren't coming out of Disney that I think can compete with Disney animation
00:51:20
Speaker
when you're talking about things like Swan Princess and I saw like Anastasia and ah even things like Shrek 2, even when you get into the the CGI world where you're, I don't know exactly what you did on the on you know on that film, but you were with you're you're you're still very, very into all of like the the next progression of animation because I think like Anastasia is like one of the the coolest animated stories outside of you know the Disney world and Disney princesses and stuff. No, I agree. I think Anastasia is easily Bluc's best film and only kind of veers off into the crazy Bluc film occasionally. yeah but But I think that also had to do a lot to do with Fox. I think Fox kind of you know held his foot to the fire and made sure that they got the film they wanted.
00:52:05
Speaker
right But yeah, yeah, and Swan Princess and stuff. No, I don't regret anything I've done. Right, right. Thinking back is like, god sure would have been nice to get all those bonuses and the fame and the, you but, you know, do what you do. if you And just to set the record straight, I i was only freelancing animation on Anastasia. I probably only did maybe 100 feet or something for them. that you feel there yeah i was in there still part of it on Shrek 2 i was in story at that point once i went to disney oh disney dreamworks i was a story person so okay so i was on story on Shrek 2 and uh on um oh over the hill over the over the hedge so yeah and some miscellaneous other projects here and there so that never made it
00:52:52
Speaker
hey joe I know you're you're you got a question ready to go. Oh, I mean, I was just noticed because that of course, when we're kind of like doing research and stuff, I was going through your Instagram and I'm a big convention person. I noticed you do a lot of conventions up and down, especially in California. I'm in Sacramento. So I do remember seeing you at Stockton Con a couple of years ago, but I just like to just what what it's like. do Do you like doing conventions and you know, doing, I don't know, like commissions and just meeting with the fans or what's happening coming out of that. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. I enjoy it, especially fun, good conventions where you're treated well. yeah ah ah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've done a lot of the California ones and stuff. ah You know, I was back big wow. Silicon in San Jose and I've done Stockton com a couple of times, but you know, you wonder con every year in Anaheim.
00:53:46
Speaker
And I do San Diego. In fact, that's I think my next one, San Diego. I don't know if there's there may be like a signing or something somewhere else prior to that. But I'm doing the same. And it's great meeting with all the fans and stuff. it It's you know eye opening to find out what people really like.
Current Projects & Challenges
00:54:05
Speaker
And I had no idea that Kitty Pride was huge. She is. I had no idea. Well, we kind of understood that golf road was popular, but I had no idea how popular she was. Of course, you see that on Instagram and everything else, all the people cosplaying as her and stuff and all the people saying that this is their their road and whatnot. So it's always great to see and meet with people that appreciate what you've done and stuff. You know, it's a little weird when people say, gee, I sound cool when I was a little kid. It's like,
00:54:39
Speaker
God, why? How did that happen? Yeah, and I love that movie, too. i Awesome. So, Stephen, other than conventions, what else are you up to right now? Is there anything you can... I know you're still working. You're saying you're you're starting to think about retirement. You're not retiring yet. so No. when As long as I can keep clicking working, I probably will. But yeah, currently, beside I'm doing some graphic novel comic stuff in my spare time, but I'm also ah working full time for a Disney Junior series called Ariel, where I'm the director, one of the directors, and working on things.
00:55:19
Speaker
these the series and you know it's a musical series and it's for little kids and it's really sweet and seems like it should be a huge success and hopefully I think it comes out in about a month or maybe later this month now that this is true right so. That's exciting. It should premiere soon. It'll be on Disney Junior and Disney Plus I think the following day in the episode so. Okay. Awesome. I'm not above, by the way, just so you all know, I'm not above watching kids like little kid shows. like I do it all the time. Like I got to watch, you know, all the, any anytime there's like Mickey Mouse, goofy, all the, you know, I don't care if it's, I don't care how low like the age group is. I've got to watch this stuff. Like it's gotta be, I think you should enjoy it. I mean, it's good. I mean, it's definitely geared down for little kids, but, you know, we've put as much effort into it as if it was being made for adults. So I love that. I love it. I believe that. I believe it. It looks like a good blending of the live action and original animated too. So that's always fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Definitely. I mean, we're leaning into the live action version as far as some of it goes, but also there's obviously a nod to the original animation.
00:56:35
Speaker
Version with some of the characters. It's great because I think they're both I think both versions are great, you know And I think that it's kind of cool to blend that so yes. All right. I mean I'm intrigued good Jeff I get to use the excuse of having two younger kids that that's why I know but I'd be like put my my My three dogs like it's a dog dad be like, well, I definitely think that ah Parents will be able to watch it comfortably with your children. I'm not go. Oh god that's That's key. That's got to be a very difficult ah you know balancing act to ah
00:57:10
Speaker
to pull off. And I think Disney does it pretty, pretty well. Cause there's some other stuff out there that some of my, you know, my kids watches are younger and I'm like, what is this? Like what is happening? I had to go through the Barney years with my dog. Oh no. that was okay that was oh That was hard. I was a Barney. Yeah. It's different than like, Mr. Rogers, we were like, well, that's maybe I need to hear that too. We're like bluey. Now you watch bluey. You're like, ah Well, that was just a good episode. I don't you know. and and But then the Barney years, that's all I sympathize with that. That's a whole other like, oh, gosh, I can't. I didn't know it was that bad. I feel bad for my parents now because I was a Barney kid. So I have to yeah you said you were try sitting through some of those episodes.
00:57:54
Speaker
yeah tea and No, no, I don't know if I want to, but my parents actually just sent a bunch of old toys from the basement and there was a Barney doll. My kid took it. How dare you, Matt? I'm like, Oh, we should show him Barney, but now I'm not going to show it to you. You may very well like it, but you will not be able to sit still and do this. You're going to second guess your whole childhood. Every year you you you're sit there and go, and Barnish it. You voiceover for Barney that your kid should never hear.
Favorite Characters Discussion
00:58:27
Speaker
So, Stephen, we're we're I know we're we're approaching our hour. We're going to wrap up. But I got to ask you, who's your favorite animated character? That dump or that? Yes, in general. but Let's do both. on that you did Because it might be like picking your own child when you're saying one of your own. Yeah, but no that's difficult. and As far as of things I haven't worked on. I frankly, I think, even though I didn't care much for the film itself, Sword in the Stone, I think what Milt Call did with Sir Kay and Sir Ector was great. I love those two, the animation on them, and you know, Mim as well, but those two in particular, because it showed a lot of restraint, and but uniqueness is like, wow, who would have thought of having him talking out of the side of his mouth like that, you know?
00:59:20
Speaker
ah you know, stuff like that. um As far as my own, you know, yeah I don't know so much, you know, I i really loved animating the Horned King, he was unique. Rothbart from Swan Princess was fun. And maybe there's a trend here. But I also enjoyed um working on, you know, the animation for the dancers, any of the characters in X-Men Evolution, anytime they were dancing, I was basically doing that. And that that was always fun. I mean, I enjoyed doing dancing characters, obviously using live action reference whenever I can, because that's the only smart way to do it. But yeah, you know, so, you know, Gothrogue and Gene and, you know, all those characters, boom, boom.
01:00:12
Speaker
all your kids all your animation kids yeah I know brought them to life that's right and you know they didn't make you watch Barney so yes well yeah unfortunately my daughter is responsible for that so Well, Steven, I want to say thank you so much for for coming on tonight and sharing your stories with us. I am sure we need to have you back because I'm sure there's many, many more stories that you can share with us. Again, like we all say, we were just scrolling through your IMDB quickly to to get an idea as we we heard that you were our guest. And there are many projects on there that we didn't even touch on. So we would love to have you back. You are a wonderful guest. Thank you so much.
01:00:52
Speaker
Sure, my pleasure. I enjoyed it. and Yeah, anytime. Let me know as long as we can work out the times. I'm good to go. Awesome. Well, we'll let Barry know and you'll you'll probably be hearing from him. Sounds good. you not Thank you. Thank you.
Closing & Follow Us
01:01:07
Speaker
um Before we let you go, where can our listeners maybe follow a little bit more about what you're ah you're up to or what you're doing? Well, I'm on a lot of social media. I'm on Facebook. I'm on, I have also a, besides a personal page, I've got a art of Steven E. Gordon page on Facebook. I'm on Instagram and all of those things like blue sky and reds and not much on X. I've kind of pulled away from that, but I, you know, Kerr is the big one right now this weekend. Everyone's joining up and because they vowed not to have AI.
01:01:43
Speaker
involved. So we'll see see if that one it clicks in, but I'm there. So I'm around. So you know all you have to do is kind of Google my full name and a lot of stuff pops up. So we'll put a a couple of links in the show notes to to see. And I've got my own website too that I use it as portfolio work and whatnot. But if people want to look at it and see a lot of animation on there, including that first scene of the the two horses running. So And that's that's the stuff we want to see. that stuff yeah so Yeah, definitely check out my website. so Awesome. Yeah, we'll put a link to that as well. so But again, thank you so much. We really had a great time. My pleasure. It's fun.
01:02:26
Speaker
Well folks, that's it for this week's episode. We want to thank our guest Stephen E. Gordon for joining us this week and we want to thank all of you for listening. Be sure to hit that follow button to stay up to date on our latest episodes as they come out. We'd also like to invite you to follow us on our social media platforms on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok by visiting at sharing the magic pod. Thank you all for tuning in and until next time, keep sharing the magic.