Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Sharing the Magic, the podcast that takes you on a journey through the enchanting worlds of Disney. Each week, we're joined by a special guest, whether they're a magician creating moments of astonishment or a Disney expert sharing the secrets behind the magic of the happiest place on Earth. Together we'll uncover the stories, inspirations, and behind-the-scenes tales that bring these worlds to life.
Speaker: So, get ready to be spellbound and transported to a place where dreams come true.
Speaker: Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Sharing the Magic. It's freezing in most of the country as we're recording this, so if you're in somewhere warm, it's probably not that warm. But we're glad you're here tonight, and have a really great guest joining us tonight, and we'll hear more about him in a moment. But first, let's say hello to our cast of characters joining us tonight.
Speaker: First, we'll say hello to Lisa. Lisa, how are you doing tonight? Hi, everyone. i'm i'm great. Happy to be here. Next, we have Brian. Brian, are you doing tonight? I'm cold, too. it's ah It's freezing here in old New Jersey, but yes, I'm very excited for this episode tonight.
Speaker: And James. James, are you doing? I'm doing good. I'm not as cold as you guys, but it is rainy and cold, so that's, I think, a little bit of a consolation, I take it. But I'm excited for and tonight. i I love Disney history, so this is a really big like episode for me. It's right up my alley in my wheelhouse, so I'm excited to ask some questions here.
Speaker: Next we have we have Josh. Josh, how are you doing tonight? What's going on, everybody? Hey, my head is cold, but my face is okay. i feel good. All right, and we also have Chrissy joining us. How are you doing, Chrissy?
Speaker: Good, I'm glad to be here. It is cold and snowy here in St. Louis, so I am on that cold train. And joining us, my fellow North Carolinian, Jeff. Jeff, how you doing? I'm doing good. Hey, Barry, it's probably pretty warm where you're at because over here it was like, oh we're good. It's going to be the apocalypse. And guess what? It wasn't. And we're all disappointed. So, yeah, it's I don't get it. um For anyone who don't know, I used to live in New York and Nebraska and since moving here to North Carolina.
Speaker: We had less than than an inch of snow and the whole state closed down. So, you know, and they have school canceled tomorrow and there's no snow on the ground. So I'm not sure. So.
Speaker: All right. The Goofy Doop says hi. Yes. Go ahead and introduce our vics. I don't know. Come on. Do it. Oh, Landru. All right. Oh, it's happy to have you. Oh, Gorge.
Speaker: Welcome, my friend. Thank you. Goofy Doop. Welcome. There you go. Goofy-doop out. All right. Goofy-doop out. So, um as you heard, our guest, Andrew Keist, is here tonight joining us. He is an author.
Speaker: and also is a historian. So, Andrew, like I ask every single guest that we have on here, and I'm going to ask you, tell us about how you fell in love with Disney.
Speaker: Yeah, so I grew up um in ah family where my parents were like they were honeymooners at Walt Disney World. And so every year to every 18 months, we would travel down to Walt Disney World for a family vacation.
Speaker: and We would stay on property. And so that was someplace that I just kind of grew up and made a lot of really good memories as a kid there. But then as I got older, I became more fascinated with um some of the story of Disney, some of the story of the attractions and the resorts. It was less about the Disney magic and more about the technology and the art that kind of went in behind it.
Speaker: um And so we actually had there there were two or three pivotal trips that we took and that really kind of. made me fall in love with disney um the first that we took was uh right after the 9-11 attacks december of 2000 and we pretty much had the entire resort to ourselves um there the the parks were empty um and then we ended up going back the following year in 2001 was during the millennium millennium celebration um And so we got to really enjoy ah the parks there as well.
Speaker: um And then in 2005, I went back and we went for a really long trip. We stayed for 10 days, Animal Kingdom Lodge, and got to the point where we almost got tired of the theme parks because we had been there for so long. But it really kind of allowed me to kind of immerse myself in the culture of the Walt Disney World Resort, the different restaurants, the the hotel resorts, the theme parks and the attractions. And so my My love for Disney has just kind of shifted over time.
Speaker: But I was at that that pivotal time of fascination with the parks as the Internet was starting to develop. So starting to listen to podcasts, reading blogs, um doing some of the early stuff on YouTube, just to try to learn as much as I could about Walt Disney World. And so that's just kind of flourished as I've grown older.
Speaker: So with you um you know visiting the parks, how often have have you visited the parks and what um but usually catches your eye when when you're there? Because i know you know every time you go to the parks, something different, you see something different.
Speaker: And then you're like, you're like oh, that's odd. you know I've never seen that before. You know, you you probably saw it a hundred times, but that particular time you actually noticed it. So what was about the parks at um that really got you really jazzed about it?
Speaker: Yeah, so I grew up in Michigan. And then after I got married, moved down to North Carolina. So I lived in North Carolina for 11 years. And now I'm back in Michigan. We made that foolish choice to go back north.
Speaker: So we don't get to go as often as I would like, but I've been probably 25 30 times. um But when I go, you know know, there's there's a few different lenses that I visit the parks with now.
Speaker: I'm to this point in my life now where I'm able to go to the parks with a lot of people who haven't been before. And so kind of being able to almost be like a tour guide to them and like.
Speaker: dispense my love of Disney to them and try to get them excited about the things that I see to the point where I see myself almost as like that annoying person that's going to the parks of like, oh, look over here and oh, there's a hidden Mickey. And who do you hear how that music shifted? And oh, look, it smells like skunk. And like showing them like all these details that they probably don't care about, but that I get excited about.
Speaker: But also when I get to go down, just really immersing myself in the story, like the transition from Liberty Square into Frontierland and kind of noticing like how the architecture just subtly changes or the colors, how they kind of shift to help tell the story.
Speaker: So that's really fun for me. But then even some of like the the subtle nods to Imagineers or inside jokes for Disney or um the Society of Explorers and Adventures that are kind of interweaved throughout the parks, like some of that stuff that unless you're really familiar with like Disney lore and Disney history.
Speaker: um Even like the tombstones at the Haunted Mansion and how they're referencing like Claude Coates and Mark Davis. um that That kind of stuff is kind of what i'm where I am when I go to the parks. I'm looking at that stuff a little bit more deeply.
Speaker: you're the west coast You're the East Coast version of me because I grew up going to Disneyland, kind of like you did. And hearing the way you describe things and the way you you do things, that is exactly how I am. I'm that one friend that my friends can't stand half the time because I'm dispensing my love of Disney and Disneyland and Walt's Original Park. And What was your draw to be that way? Because I know for me, it was just my overall love of history.
Speaker: And then when you match Disney, which I had a huge love for, and that it just seemed like a natural fit. So what was your, like your gravitation to that sort of idea? In terms of why I was able to kind of combine history and Disney together? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, so ah my major in college was history. I've always been kind of a love of history, um American history in particular. But in college, there was very little that I could do with a history degree, short of like writing about it or becoming a professor. And so I decided to become a history teacher because there wasn't much else.
Speaker: And obviously it wasn't because of the money. So I became a history teacher, um but I also was absolutely in love with Disney. And so i was I was kind of like balancing this idea of how do I combine my enjoyment and fascination with history with my passion and love for Disney, which I'm i'm an and i'm an incredibly nostalgic person, right? So when I go into the parks, I'm remembering all those memories of growing up there when I would go every 18 months or whatever. And, oh, like I remember when we stayed at that resort. And I feel like...
Speaker: um You know, that that detail wasn't there when I grew up or like noticing different things. So like, how can I combine my fascination with with history, with my love of Disney? And what that essentially became was, you know, several books that I've written magazine articles.
Speaker: I've gone on research trips, which are really just excuses to be able to go down to Disney or to go out to California. But I convinced my wife by saying, you know, I just need to go over there for 10 days for research. And she she knows what my true motivations are. But she's she's a good sport about all of it.
Speaker: I think one of the big things is and and you nailed it on the head, and my my wife calls me a nerd all the time because I'll stand, as you see my background is Tomorrowland, I will stand for hours and listen to the area of music on different areas just because i think it's so underappreciated.
Speaker: within the areas and how long it took them to come up with, you know, the Jungle Cruise, like the shortwave radio or Tomorrowland or things like that. and And I think especially someone like you who, you know, you'll take different people to the parks and things like that.
Speaker: I think there's a a true appreciation with that. need You know, because I remember the first time I heard Tomorrowland music, it was on mouse world radio and I've never heard, heard it before until I got to the park for the first time.
Speaker: And then I was like, Oh yeah, that's where it came from. So yeah. So, uh, major props to you for, uh, for, uh, taking people down there and showing them the, you know, the actual love there. Because i don't think it's as annoying as you you think it is, because I think an experienced tour guide at a park like that, sometimes i wish would have when we first went.
Speaker: Because playing Blue's Clues or Where's Waldo the whole time down there trying to figure out where you're going with it but a sketchy map. And I think someone like you telling people that, you know,
Speaker: look over here, this is that, you know, or, you know, look at um Cinderella, you see her bent over, you can see the crown over top of her, things like that. And I think having you mentioned that, and I think, I think that's, that's outstanding.
Speaker: Thanks. So moving on, you've been there numerous times. So what do your friends you or the people you take, what do they say about the parks when they're there, when you're showing them all um you know all the fun that's there?
Speaker: Yeah, so some of the more recent special trips that I've been on, when I was ah a high school teacher in North Carolina, I was at a small charter school. And when you're at a charter school as an educator, you kind of wear several different hats.
Speaker: Well, at this particular school, I was the senior class advisor, which meant that I got to plan our senior class trip. And so I threw out the suggestion to our administration, hey, let's let's take our students to Disney World um because the population of students that we were serving, our school was in Greensboro. So we had a lot of really low income kids ah in that area and they they probably wouldn't have been able to get to Disney on their own. And so um we were able to swing it to be able to bring them. And let's be honest, we just did that because I wanted to go to Disney World for a week and get paid for it.
Speaker: But we went down there. we ended up taking like 40 or 50 kids. And like I said, a lot of these kids hadn't been to Disney before or likely weren't getting the opportunity anytime soon.
Speaker: And so just being able to kind of like step back like I had I was a chaperone on that trip as well. So I had like seven or eight senior boys who were 18 19. They were a lot of them were basketball players, so they were a lot taller than many of the people that were in the crowd.
Speaker: And being able to just walk like 15 to 20 feet behind them and just watch these these boys who were, you know, tough high schoolers getting ready to go into the real world, just become like little kids walking down Main Street, USA.
Speaker: Like it was just such a sweet experience. um But being able to point things out to them. And I didn't know any of these boys that were in my my small group for that trip before we got there.
Speaker: And by the end of the trip, they were like, you know, we were kind of unsure that we wanted to be in your your group because we had heard things about you. But like we got the best chaperone because you knew all the restaurants to eat at.
Speaker: You knew all the fun things to do. Like you were showing us different things. um So it's kind of like that fine line of like letting them make the trip their own, but also being like, hey, we're going to go.
Speaker: When we go in the Magic Kingdom, we're going to go to the left instead of the right like everybody else is because we're going, and you know, against the crowd or, you know, we we want to get out of the park during fireworks. Well, we're actually going to cut through the Emporium and avoid all the crowds or better yet, we're going to go and do all the attractions while everybody's standing around the castle. So kind of doing all of that kind of stuff.
Speaker: You know, ah it enriched my experience. It blessed me because I got to experience it through their eyes for the first time. But then also being able to kind of turn that around and and give them a good experience that they might not have had otherwise.
Speaker: So you said you you got into the history of different things, you know, the parks, things like that. So what what were some of the big history things that you learned that said, oh, this is something I need to get, this needs to be written or this needs to get out there so people can understand that, you know, there's some hidden information that people need to know about?
Speaker: Yeah, so when I first started writing about Disney was back in mid 2007. um There was a magazine that had started up. It was one of the only Disney magazines that were out there.
Speaker: And I wrote an article about the time that I went and ran a half marathon at Disney World. I just kind of wrote about my experience. It was one-page article. um And that article ended up through some additional blogs that happened later on through that same magazine.
Speaker: A publisher ended up seeing my work and reached out to me and said, hey, I would love for you to write something. The sky's the limit. Like, whatever it is that you want to write about, you're good writer. I need more writers for my publishing company.
Speaker: um And so one of the concepts that I had floating around in my mind was I love history and there's a lot of history based attractions at Walt Disney World. How accurate historically are these different attractions?
Speaker: And so I i was like, OK, where do I start? And one of my all time favorite attractions growing up was Pirates of the Caribbean. So i I basically took like a minute look at pirates and said, OK, what details in this ride are historically accurate and what are culturally developed? What are our our perceptions of pirates that we've developed through culture, whether it's ah movies or Peter Pan or literature? And what concepts or ideas did Imagineers just completely craft in order to immerse guests in the story? Yeah.
Speaker: And I ended up writing, i think on my my word document on the computer that I ended up typing was like 20 or 30 pages of just historical analysis of the details of Pirates of the Caribbean, which was just really, really fascinating. Just some of the stuff.
Speaker: and And maybe it wasn't intentional by Imagineers. I like to think that it was. But like even the ride vehicles. were a specific type of boat that was used in canals in Caribbean ports. So like just looking at all of these different things was just really, really interesting. And that just kind of led to an entire book series um that I wrote, looking at historical details and historical accuracy of different theme park attractions.
Speaker: All right, here's here's my last question, and then I'll let the the gang jump in here. but i'm So were were you just mainly focused on ah rides, or was it was there a restaurant that you saw that ah you um also were looking at the history of, you know, maybe it was...
Speaker: you know, something and in world World Showcase or so something that you so you saw. But were you were you specifically just right So I started out with rides. And then i as I developed the book series, my my opera um my options started to shrink.
Speaker: um And so i started looking at resorts and I started looking at restaurants. I didn't do a whole lot of restaurants. Just off the top of my head, I think the only restaurant that I did was Casey's Corner.
Speaker: um and kind of taking that that idea of like baseball history and Casey at the Bat, the the poem that was written, um and kind of analyzing that a little bit. I did Port Orleans, ah Riverside specifically, and kind of analyzed some of the the Southern plantation history through that.
Speaker: Another another favorite of mine for for the attractions was the Carousel of Progress and kind of picking that apart and Spaceship Earth. um So I was primarily focused on the attractions for that book series. But I did a couple couple of restaurants and resorts as well to try to diversify a little bit.
Speaker: In all of your research that you've done, what is why the most fascinating fact that you found out about Walt Disney the man? Because the ideas came from him. That starts some from somewhere, and there's to be some fascinating little pieces of nuggets in there that you found along the way.
Speaker: Yeah, so when it comes, so just for for kind of contextual purposes, so i've I've done three different history-based book series that I've written.
Speaker: So I had the one that I was just speaking of, which was the historical tour of Walt Disney World. So it was looking at different attractions and lands and and that kind of thing and their historical accuracy. and The second book series that I wrote or that I've been working on, i have two books out of hopefully four about the New York World's Fair and the attractions that Disney developed for that.
Speaker: And then I'm also in the midst of writing a biographical book series for a separate publisher out of Britain um about Walt Disney. And that's hopefully a three book trilogy really kind of going through Walt's life um completely.
Speaker: um And so, you know, i'm I'm absolutely fascinated by the New York World's Fair and how the World's Fair kind of helped ah develop. You know what became Walt Disney World and how if the World's Fair hadn't happened or if Disney hadn't been involved in the World's Fair, there's probably not a Walt Disney World and Disney probably wouldn't be as big as it is today.
Speaker: um But like learning that Walt's father, Elias, actually was after after him and li ah his wife, Flora, got married. They moved to ah Florida. And they lived in Florida and they tried to do some agriculture down there.
Speaker: Elias ended up getting very sick at the same time that there was a huge frost snap, which killed all of their citrus down in Florida. So they basically were they they didn't know what to do with their life.
Speaker: And so Elias ended up hearing through the grapevine that there was a World's Fair that was going to happen in Chicago. um And so he went up there as a carpenter to go work on the World's Fair in Chicago. And that's where he and Flora ended up settling.
Speaker: um And together they ended up designing and building the house that they would live in when Walt was born. And not only that, they also built several houses that were in that neighborhood as well. And so, you know, being like learning that not only did he work at the Chicago World's Fair,
Speaker: but that he also built the family home and built several homes in the area and helped construct the church that they went to. You know, that that those very early years, Walt Disney's history is fascinating, but I've been really, you know, entranced by probably those first 25 to 28 years of Walt's life, just because it doesn't get covered as often. Like, a lot of Disney fans know the animation history and the theme park history, but it's his history from, you know, his the the times before he was actively working in animation, or at least before where the Disney Brothers studio began, that a lot of people don't really know a lot about.
Speaker: It's so interesting that you bring that up because I'm actually in ah production right now. It's going to be a voice broadcast ah podcast of his early life from 16 to like 18, the years of the war. So it's I love the fact that you're reaching into that part because you are very right that that part of his history is very well overlooked.
Speaker: And it is very much about the animation. It's not about the stuff beforehand. What was it about the beforehand that really drew you into the the depths of this series so far than the first part?
Speaker: So whenever I'm researching... ah For a book, I like to go in and put myself in that place. So like, just like I am at when I'm at Walt Disney World, the idea of immersing myself in story. So i as ah as a writer, don't feel like I can do justice to a topic unless I've been there and I've put my hands on things and I've stepped inside of things and I've immersed myself in the environment.
Speaker: um And so when I first was approached to write a biography about Walt Disney, the publishing company only wanted me to do one book. And they were asking me to write approximately 200 to 300 pages in this biography. And I said, that's not something that I can do. I'm thinking like Neil Gabler's biography of Walt Disney is like 700 or 800 pages long.
Speaker: And so I was able to negotiate, okay, what if we did a biographical series of Walt? And so they agreed to that. The first volume of that series was, you know, the early life of Walt Disney.
Speaker: So you've got, you know, from before he was born, going all the way back to when his ancestors lived in Europe, all the way up until the the start of the Disney Brothers studio. um But my I was able to convince my wife. It was during the the lockdown, during COVID. we Schools were out. They were virtual. And so we packed up our our family and we drove out to Missouri and we did a week-long research trip in Missouri to actually go and see the areas that Walt lived in. Just prior to COVID, we had gone to Chicago
Speaker: And we were able to to tour the Walt Disney birthplace in Chicago and actually go into the bedroom where Walt was born. um And so being able to go and just see the places where Walt Disney was going. And we were we were very lucky to be able to have ah dessert and drinks in the living room of Walt's Marceline home.
Speaker: um or being able to go up into the backyard of Walt's home that he lived in in Kansas City and touch the barn that he and Elias had built together. um Like that was just what really brought it alive to me. So like it went from, you know, essentially theoretical history to know like this was a real person who did real things.
Speaker: And just kind of almost like stitched my story to Walt's story. Like he became less of an American mythological figure and became much more of a real person. Like we walked through and drove through the neighborhoods in Kansas City where he delivered the newspaper. Or we were able to see where the Kansas City Star Building was. And we were able to imagine like...
Speaker: Walt and Roy walking with Elias into the Star Building to to purchase that newspaper route. So just seeing that really brought it alive and really brought passion to the project.
Speaker: Also have to say, said Chicago. I've never been in Chicago, but people that I know from Chicago, sounds to me like you said the word Chicago like you're supposed to.
Speaker: Oh, good. Well, I think so. but But it seems like Yeah, you know, you get, it's like, i but i lived I lived in Kentucky for a while, and that was a learning curve, because it was like, Louisville, no, it's like, Louisville, Louisville, you just have to say it as, you gotta say it like people say it, and people, know,
Speaker: you know so You know, but Chicago, you know, there's the whole stereotypical thing like Chicago. That's not how you said it. That's not how you said it. You said it like in between. like You got to do the nasally a Chicago. There you go.
Speaker: Yeah. yeah So I know what you sort of, um okay, I'm going to talk about myself for a second, a brief second, and then i'm goingnna I'm going to use it as segue, and I'm going to invite you to talk about you.
Speaker: um Well, I sort of do churchy things. i I was a youth director for a long, long time, and... One of the things that I know, you know, while I was doing all that stuff is that most of my youth kids loved stories. And you've been talking about stories and we've been talking about Disney.
Speaker: And ah most of my youth kids love Disney and they love stories. And so a lot of my sort, of whether it was a lesson for them, whether it was, you know, we would just sometimes, sometimes youth group was just invite your friends and let's just watch Disney movies. Yeah.
Speaker: But it would be it would be very meaningful, and we would have great conversations. And we I've said this phrase on here all the time, story shapes life. Story shapes life.
Speaker: And, you know, i think you've already touched down upon it quite a bit, but... I don't know, when you when you when you think of Disney, when you think of maybe your own involvement in the lives of other people, right? So whether they're youth, whether they're adults, and stories and Disney, and how do you think story has shaped your life? And how do you think you've used, you know, stories like Disney?
Speaker: doesn't have to be Disney, but could be Disney to shape the lives of other people that you mentor and you care about. Yeah. so story is, very important to me because when I, when I write, I don't want it to just read like a history textbook.
Speaker: Like that's, that's part of, like you said, that's what makes Disney special is that they're all about story. They're all about creating immersive worlds. Uh, and putting their guests into the story.
Speaker: And so when I write history, you know, I want the reader to feel as though they are experiencing. i want the reader to feel like they're going and sitting in a vaudeville hall listening to the country bears. I want the reader to feel like they're able to, you know, ride in 1964 convertible Mustang. This is the first time they're seeing it. And they're riding through the magic skyway at the New York World's Fair or enjoying a Belgian waffle.
Speaker: um You know, I want my reader to, be standing there with Walt and Ruth as they're painting pictures on the side of their house in Marceline with Tar and Elias coming home and being ticked that they've now destroyed the side of their house.
Speaker: um And so, you know, that's very important to me. I think that's what makes a ah good historian. Not that I always consider myself to be a good historian, but I think that's what makes somebody a good historian is that they're telling a true story. Yeah. um And then on on more of a professional level, I, too, am in youth ministry.
Speaker: And so um we are constantly using stories, connecting stories. students' stories to our own stories, and then connecting that to the bigger story as well. So I think in order to to reach people and for there to be connection between people, regardless of of what it is, you know, story is...
Speaker: Story is what draws people together. Exactly. And we don't have to get super religious on here, but I'll tell you what, there is a thing called a meta narrative, right? So meta narrative, you got me all, got me all up on my soapbox right now.
Speaker: But a meta narrative, think is a powerful thing because we all have our own little stories, little s, right? Then there's that but The minute you utter the phrase happily ever after, that becomes a grand metanarrative. It's a big S. And I think, you know, one of the things I miss about storytelling, you know, I i think we have sort well, I think we don't hear that sort of metanarrative stories as much as we used to. Maybe I'm old, getting old and crotchety. i don't know. I don't know.
Speaker: But what do you think about that as a writer, as somebody who tells stories? Do you think, um and as somebody who ah sort of in the same kind of realm as I am, which, you know, we could be a little covert about it. But but when I think of a metanarrative, I think of a story that's that transcends our stories. And I think Disney, you know, you go you go back, gosh, I mean,
Speaker: Well, most best the best all the best stories tell a meta narrative. Do you think we've lost that? Do you think we do you think we're on the right track? What do what do you think about that?
Speaker: I think it kind of comes and goes in waves. Like if we're talking about Disney, I think Disney is so regardless of what your opinion of is the of the film, ah their recent release of Wish, you know, they've kind of got like where they're they're drawing all of these different Disney ties together, right? Where, you know, they're they're making those Disney connections where Asha's friends are like the seven dwarves and she, spoilers, she becomes like the fairy godmother at the end and the villain ends up becoming the magic mirror and kind of like pulling all of this together where it's like, oh, like this isn't just a story.
Speaker: um You know, there's something that, that bigger that's going on or, you know, looking at the lands of the, of the theme parks, you know? It's not just Frontierland where everything's cute and you've got all these individual attractions. They all kind of fit into this bigger story of Frontierland as well. So I think it's something, you know, that that we are kind of losing out on, you know, thinking about.
Speaker: Even like if we go back, you know, 50 or 100 years ago, where people are making allusions to, you know, you're watching a movie and they they use a line from Shakespeare. Well, a lot of these kids today, they don't recognize recognize the reference so much as before, you know, it was something like, oh, they're quoting Macbeth.
Speaker: um And that's not something I think that that cultural literacy. Yeah. um is starting to slowly fall by the wayside and i don't necessarily know what's to what's what's responsible for that well i think um i mean nihilism maybe you know but i think like in storytelling i just got a gray hair like two years ago and the minute i saw that i felt like i was like cursed like i'm i'm lumiere i suddenly turned into a house lamp or or like don't But it was like, oh, no, what is this?
Speaker: And then that phrase happily ever after. I'm like, oh, no. ah Well, I'm being hyperbolic. But that sort of was the experience where, you know, that the idea of every tear one day.
Speaker: happily ever after will come, you know, in our, in our, in our story and our meta narrative, there will be ah a day where the sky is rolled back like a scroll and every, you know, the, the curse is undone and then every tear is wiped away and all the things are ah broken dreams are, are everything comes back to us. And well, that's a powerful narrative and I believe it, you know, that's something I believe in.
Speaker: But i think I think our culture has sort of lost that hopeful optimism of ah that. And and i i would you know I think they well i think that is very it that is told very well in a lot of our old stories, includ mostly in Disney. you know There's the happily ever after.
Speaker: Look at Beauty and the Beast. I mean, it's it's I think it's... You know, where, you know, they're under a curse. is Life is not the way it should be, but suddenly something happens, and then they're restored.
Speaker: Right. Well, shoot, I miss that kind of storytelling, you know? like I don't know. I digress. i'm go I'm going to turn it over to you all, and and there you go.
Speaker: Jeff, they called out the tale as old this time, by the way. Yeah, there you go. but Yeah, that was true. Well said, well said. Okay, I have a question that has nothing to do with what we just talked about, even even though that was a great conversation.
Speaker: I am a big fan of the the World's Fair, just like you you have been. And maybe because i have a picture of my parents right before it closed, end of 65, I think when it closed, of me when I was like, I must have been like two weeks old in a stroller there. And is I'm always laughing. the Why did you bring me there so young? But but you know my day maybe that's why my parents were. I'm such a big Disney fan. But I'm just, I have a lot of cool things. I have a lot of programs and I have a lot of things that my parents kept, but ah yeah you've done, I know you've done the research and I may i probably have to get your book and read about it, but how did they get the attractions from there to the parks?
Speaker: How, I mean, how difficult, you know, back then too, ah you know, understanding there weren't, there probably weren't the same things that people can move with today. How did they do that so well?
Speaker: You know, what was involved with that? Yeah, no, that's a great question. So there were four attractions that Disney developed for the New York World's Fair. So you had the state of Illinois, great moments with Mr. Lincoln.
Speaker: You had Ford's Magic Skyway. um You had General Electric's Progress Land slash Carousel of Progress. And then you had the Disney created It's a Small World, which was sponsored by Pepsi, but was a fundraiser for UNICEF. So that one just kind of had all sorts of little intricacies with that.
Speaker: And each attraction kind of had its own relation to the parks. So, for example, with the Illinois ah Pavilion with Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln, Disney had initially signed a contract that the New York World's Fair and the Illinois Pavilion had exclusive rights to Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln.
Speaker: But it was so successful after the 1964 fair that Walt decided that he was going to replicate Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln and open it the summer of...
Speaker: the spring it was in between the the the fair season so either late 64 early 65 he ended up bringing that attraction to Disneyland I believe it was early 65 because it would have been for the the parks 10th annual um but he basically brought that attraction and and replicated it so the the attraction from New York was not brought back to Disneyland a second great moments with Mr. Lincoln was built in Disneyland while there was an east coast version at in New York as well where is that original one um So, and if, when you go in Disneyland, it's in the opera house.
Speaker: So, no, no. I mean, I'm saying the original one that was in New York that, that he replicated. So he replicated what but what are you, the one he replicated it from is that one still around too? So, no. So I don't believe they ended up bringing that back. I think they just brought everything back from New York and then just kind of gutted it.
Speaker: So you've got that one and it was a carbon copy from what what was originally built in New York for 64. They built a brand new version of it in 65 for Disneyland while the East Coast one was still happening. And then when the fair was done, brought the the original Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln back to California and just basically harvested it for parts.
Speaker: With Ford's Magic Skyway, that was the only of the four attractions that wasn't brought back to Disneyland. So they ended up taking the dinosaurs from the Ford Magic Skyway because essentially what it was was you get into a Ford Mustang and they bring you back in time to show you kind of the early days of transportation. So you go and you see dinosaurs and then it kind of transitions to woolly mammoths and then it transitions to cavemen and how cavemen have dinosaurs developed transportation, and then it skips a lot of history and brings you into the future to see what transportation would look like into the future.
Speaker: Well, that that wasn't brought back to din to Disneyland, but what they did bring back was the big dinosaur animatronics. And that was then put in the Grand Canyon panorama on the Disneyland Railroad.
Speaker: So that's really the only bit that was brought back. Now, there were other bits that were kind of harvested for other things. So the the technology that was used to propel the Ford Mustangs through the the attraction ends up becoming what they did for ah the Wedway people mover and what you still have with the Tomorrowland Transit Authority people mover over at the Magic Kingdom where you have the tires that are in the ground that are basically pushing the ah the cars forward.
Speaker: And then some of the storyline ends up getting reused in World of Motion at Epcot when World of Motion ah opened in the early 80s. Carousel of Progress, they end up tearing that down because remember, at the World's Fair, everything was built to be temporary. None of those structures were were built to be permanent. So as soon as the gates shut in October of 65,
Speaker: You already have bulldozers going through and cranes just completely destroying everything that's there. So they had to get their their stuff out quick, Disney did. But they end up shipping a lot of the carousel stuff back to Disneyland by literally just crating it up. um In fact, when they brought the figures from...
Speaker: Disney or from California out to the World's Fair in the first place. Somebody at Disney thought it would be funny to bring the animatronic figures onto airplanes and bought them plane tickets. um And so like there's one great story of ah they had brought the grandmother figure.
Speaker: onto an airplane and ah there were other passengers that were trying to talk to her and she wouldn't respond obviously because she was a ah shut down animatronic. But she went the entire ride from California to New York City on an airplane seat and people thought she was a real lady, which is ah a testament to the quality and the realism of animatronics back in 65. Obviously we look at them today and we're like, those are not very good compared to some of the more modern figures.
Speaker: But for that time, obviously, it was it was very good. um And then It's a Small World. um They ended up destroying the original um trough that the boats went in um and ended up building a second trough brand new in California.
Speaker: They had Rolly Crump and Mary Blair decided to design a new facade at Disneyland that the the attraction would flow through um and then end up using some of the same figures and some of the same toys from It's a Small World to go into the new attraction. But I mean, it was, you know, in some cases, they're obviously the dinosaurs from Magic Skyway. They're putting them on the back of semi trucks and driving them across the country.
Speaker: At one point, some of the the stuff from the Lincoln attraction, they did a road show with it where they drove it to different cities throughout the country and kind of did exhibits with that. um So, you know, they weren't putting it in semis. They were on flatbed trucks.
Speaker: But there's also a great picture of. some of the dinosaurs on flatbed trucks going down the California highways in Los Angeles, going to Disneyland. And there's there's kids you know sticking their heads out of a school bus as this giant flatbed truck with a giant dinosaur is going by next to him on on the highway.
Speaker: That's amazing. I've seen that picture. yeah so the So the oldest animatronics then would be Lincoln and the dinosaurs. Are are the theyre there are they the two that have been around the longest? Yeah, so it would have been Lincoln, the the dinosaurs and cavemen, which the cavemen were just, they were very archaic. They didn't have a whole lot of of individual movements from Ford Magic Skyway.
Speaker: And then carras at the carousel family, and and those those all would have have been. But even earlier than that, you know, you've got... um the robins on mary poppins so those were some of the oldest ones um but it all kind of goes back to that little wind-up birdcage um or the automaton birdcage that walt had gotten when he visited france and brought it back home and had his imagineers basically tinkering with it trying to figure out like how does this work and from there that's kind of where they developed uh animatronics and they still have that birdcage in walt's office at the studio today
Speaker: Amazing. Thank you for that. Yeah, thank you. Great tidbits. And all of your research for the World's Fair, ah did you talk to any of the living Imagineers at the time when you were doing the research?
Speaker: So I had reached out to several. um the The research process that I went through for the World's Fair books, that's that's some of my favorite research that I've done and all the books that I've done. um So I actually was lucky enough to go to Springfield, Illinois and dig through the Illinois State Archives to look at all their World's Fair stuff. And then I did the same with Ford. I went into the Benson Ford Archives um in Dearborn and went through all of the Ford Archives for their World's Fair stuff.
Speaker: I had reached out to several Imagineers. Unfortunately, guys like Bob Gurr and Rolly Crump hadn't didn't get back to me. um This was before Rolly had passed.
Speaker: I had reached out to a couple of Imagineers that worked on It's a Small World. But one of the things that I really, really enjoyed that's similar, they were not Imagineers, but I was able to find in my records through my research manifests of people who actually worked at the New York World's Fair on these attractions.
Speaker: and was able to hunt some of them down and actually had phone conversations with some of these people who are now in their late 80s and early 90s who worked back you know at great moments with Mr. Lincoln or the Ford Magic Skyway 60 years ago.
Speaker: And they they remembered all of the stories and they remembered the jobs they did. And we had some wonderful conversations. I'm good friends with them now, 36-year-old me with 92-year-old ladies from Illinois that...
Speaker: worked at the New York world's fair and just being able to kind of hear their story and okay, why, why did you leave your family, your husband with your young kids for two summers to go work in New York at a world's fair? And like, what are, what are some of your experiences with that? So that was probably a richer experience.
Speaker: I didn't get much on the Disney side because a lot of their information was proprietary and and and confidential. But I was able to get enough just from, you know, the the Ford Company archives and the Illinois archives to be able to go off of plus other books that have been written by Imagineers or published by Disney um about the New York World's Fair attractions that I was able to kind of get what I needed from it.
Speaker: You are a history teacher. Do you incorporate Disney into your history lessons? I know you said that your trip after 9-11 was a pivotal trip for you at the time. i was a cast member at Walt Disney World during 9-11, so I remember how empty the theme parks were. So, I don't know if you teach US history or world history, but do you incorporate any of like Disney's impact, um whether it be theme parks or media?
Speaker: in In history in general or are how they incorporate or, you know, what what their impact in history in general is. Yeah. So, but you know, when i when I was teaching, I taught a number of different classes.
Speaker: um One of my favorite activities that I would do is when we would get to the 1930s and we would analyze the culture of the Great Depression, i would actually take video clips because that was like the golden age of Hollywood. And so we would watch different video clips or different shorts or And I would have my students kind of analyze, like, what is this what is this film clip saying about the culture or the belief system of the Great Depression? So we would watch clips from Shirley Temple, and we would watch clips from the Marx Brothers and the Three Stooges about being the Disney fan that I was. I also included, you know, the the original film trailer for Snow White and the Silly Symphonies, ah The Three Little Pigs and Grasshopper and the Ants.
Speaker: And so we would kind of use that to analyze like, hey, what what were Americans feeling and what was Hollywood portraying? during the Great Depression in the 1930s. and We did a similar activity when it came to World War II propaganda. So we would look at propaganda posters and stuff that was created by Dr. Seuss.
Speaker: But there's a ah very rich collection of World War II propaganda films that Disney had created as well. And so we would watch those and we would look at, OK, what type of propaganda was this? What was the central message? Who is the intended audience of this propaganda film? Because not all of them were released for general audiences. Some of them were specific for, you know, teaching factory workers how to do flush riveting.
Speaker: on airplanes and ships, while others were geared towards ah people buying ah war bonds to help pay for the war, and others were geared towards farmers to encourage them to grow more food for the war effort.
Speaker: So we did that activity, which was always really fun. But I also was lucky enough to develop a film history class. and teach a year long class on film history. The first half of the year was always focused on animation.
Speaker: um And so we would go through the history of animation, which really just meant we were going through the history of the Walt Disney Company. But then at the end of that first semester, the student's final project was they had to create their own 10 minute animated film.
Speaker: And so I had some kids who would do hand drawn animation where they bought like, you know, the old transparencies that we would use in school back in the day. So he bought like a 500 pack of those and essentially use them as celluloid to basically ink and paint his own animation on there with you know, static background. And and he did a hand drawn animated film. I had other kids doing ah stop motion Lego animation.
Speaker: um And so they would create their own animated film. But that really, again, that was just an excuse for me to be able to watch and share some of my favorite ah Disney films. Another really fun activity for that first half of the year was we would also do a Foley studio.
Speaker: So I would put an animated film up on the screen and then give students all these different props. And they had to create their own sound effects and their own soundtrack ah for the animated films as well. So it was really fun to just kind of teach them like, here's how films are made.
Speaker: Here's what animation was like. Here's how animation was created, you know, back in the early nineteen hundreds and get to kind of show them a lot of films that they hadn't seen before. A lot of kids hadn't seen Snow White and the Seven Dwarves or the 1950 Cinderella or the 1967 Jungle Book.
Speaker: So, you know, kind of exposing them to some of those cultural things that they wouldn't have been able to experience otherwise.
Speaker: Have you talked to or or spoke about um these ideas to other teachers, um other groups, you know, presented at Comic-Con or anything such as that, some of these ideas?
Speaker: um So I've talked to a few teachers. This was several years ago that I did all of this. I've kind of been out of the teaching world now for three years. um And I miss it sometimes, but I still get to work with students. So that's super rewarding.
Speaker: um But back when I had developed Know the Film History class, I think I ended up posting something about it online. And somebody had encouraged me to put it on Teachers Pay Teachers, which is a website where teachers can upload their lessons and their worksheets and then other people can go buy them.
Speaker: But I never really liked that. i I was more like here, like, here's my stuff. It's free for anybody that wants to use it. It's it's not especially just for me. um And so there were a few teachers that I had spoken to, none at my school, because I was the weird Disney guy and nobody else was really into that.
Speaker: But yeah, there was there was a few things that I had shared. um I know another example was I was teaching an AP history class, which is like a college level history class for high schoolers.
Speaker: And for their final project, I had them create their own, don't remember if it was their own theme park or if it was their own attraction based around history. But I gave them, of course, you know, Disney World as their case study so that they kind of knew to like, hey, like this is what it should look like.
Speaker: So I had a student that created a theme park attraction about the French revolution. And at at the end, everybody's heads were chopped off. So, you know, it was, I mean, it was, it was good, but you know, nobody was really into that kind of stuff as much as I was. So I was kind of a lone ranger when it came to using Disney in the classroom.
Speaker: And did you find that students just, I'm just curious, did you find that students that had some association or tie or had been to Disney World or land had a better frame of reference or were some of the best projects by someone who'd never Yeah.
Speaker: It's little bit of both. um So I had some kids who found out that I was really into Disney. And so they decided that they wanted to create a Disney, build your own Disney park club.
Speaker: And so of course I got roped into that as their advisor and kind of helped do that with them. um What was really neat was that particular group of students. When I started working with them in that club and we started learning... Disney had published an Imagineering toolbox or Imagineering toolkit that was online. So we downloaded that and I kind of went through that with them.
Speaker: But they were sophomores at the time and they were my last group of seniors that I took for the dis the Disney senior trip. So being that was kind of that full circle of like, hey, we're going to look at these attractions. And then three years later, when I took them to Disney World for their senior trip and being able to go on things like Test Track with them and wander around Epcot at nine or 10 o'clock at night with them.
Speaker: You know, that was that was really neat to be like, hey, like, remember when we did this three years ago? Like, this is now the the fruit of that. But like there were there were some kids who who had no Disney frame of reference. So they thought that it was for kids who ended up doing a really good job just out of pure creativity as well.
Speaker: But trying to convey to somebody who's not been to Disney. What's different about Disney or the level of detail or the way that something is structured and organized is very, it's it's not easy to do either. so I think it's pretty pretty amazing that your reference of different things, because i know, and I brought this up a couple times on the podcast before, that I like listening to old-time radio. I think that's think that's one of the the best ways of ah hearing different things, because the generation now know television. They know... um
Speaker: things that they see, things like that. Unlike on the radio where um all the sounds were made by someone there, it wasn't on a soundboard and it wasn't on a... When glass broke, you had glass and you dropped it on the floor and and it broke, things like that.
Speaker: And I think i like the um the comment that you said that you instill that into your kids to say, okay, you know... this is nineteen thirty s you know Think like that. And I think a lot of times, especially when you look at Disney and you see the...
Speaker: how the the parks are, how the movies are now and how advanced they are in certain areas. But it took a while for that to get like that because back in the day, you know, they were in the same boats as the old time radio people. They had to, you know, make their own horse sounds. They had to make their own ah thunder sounds, things like that. So I think the way you, you taught your kids how to, um,
Speaker: go back to it. I think, I think that's kind of like, you know, if, if Walt was sitting next to you, that, that would be something he'd be like, yes, this is what I was trying to lay in front of you. And I think, uh, think it's pretty amazing that would probably be the perfect, uh, perfect timeframe for it as well, because there was so much going on at that time.
Speaker: Yeah, for sure. All right. Josh, you have a question. I do, man, but this has been so good. Just listen to all this stuff. So I've been trying to take it all in. I have a pretty, um just a question from me personally. I'm a huge Pirates fan.
Speaker: Just circle back to that a little bit. I mean, my YouTube channel logo is we remastered the dog to our dog that passed, put the key ah in the mouth. And that's our that's our logo for our channel. also So um my wife, when I told her about your website, was like, let's get some facts here.
Speaker: that you discovered along the research process for pirates. um I just love pirates. I know nothing historically about pirates, but i would love to hear some things that maybe surprised you when you were researching that you found that the, that Disney got wrong.
Speaker: Yeah. So obviously the, the, the smell of the pirates water is probably not what the smell of, of ocean water in the Caribbean is, but I just love the pirate water smell. So I had, I had to bring that up.
Speaker: You know, in terms of of pirate language, that was really interesting to me, right? Because the pirate language is just so iconic. Like what we see in the movies or even in Pirates of the Caribbean, like how the pirates talk.
Speaker: And it was actually like, you know, the the Treasure Island movie that that Disney created, the first live action um that Disney did. And then Pirates of the Caribbean kind of put this this pirate lingo in the vernacular. Like there wasn't a lot before that.
Speaker: ah In terms of like, oh, like this is how pirates talk. Like Disney helped craft that culturally for us of like, no, like arg me mateys like that, like talk like a pirate day kind of came from what the image was that Disney kind of created for us of what pirates were.
Speaker: You know, the the more accurate pirate language. would have been kind of a conglomeration of the different languages because pirates were actually like privateers right so they were essentially people who um had separated from their european governments their imperial governments or maybe they were escaped slaves or or maybe there were people who were colonists that decided they didn't want to be part of the colonies anymore and so you know they were multi-ethnic crews and multi ethnic groups of of pirates. And so their language was actually like a conglomeration of, you know, French and Portuguese and Spanish and English, all kind of put together, which was kind of interesting to me.
Speaker: But, you know, another thing that I thought was really fascinating was um the laws that pirate ships actually had on them. So we kind of see pirates as, you know, the the song that Exitensio wrote about, you know, they're rapists and they're pillagers and they're plunderers and they rifle and loot and they're alcoholics and like they're just all of these terrible things.
Speaker: um But, you know, pirate captains and pirate crews for the most part had quite a bit of honor. to them like for example looking at the the pirates of the caribbean like the original incarnation where they're selling brides like that would have been a big no-no like that would have been a big reason for pirates to be um removed from the ship or punished or taken off of a crew because you know there were specific rules of like you don't assault or harm innocent people they're they're
Speaker: A pirate's role was not to go after civilians. It was to go after imperial ships and imperial treasuries. Right. So they're going after, you know, the Spanish ships on the Spanish main or they're going after the British ships or they're going after the slavers.
Speaker: They're not going after necessarily, you know, the common people who are living in villages on the islands or on the American coast. And so pirate captains actually had specific laws that were written and instituted and held accountable to their crews in order to protect, you know, the innocence that were there.
Speaker: And similar to like the treasure, right? We think about pirate treasury and even looking at that final scene that you see now with Jack Sparrow and he's like in the town treasury and, you know, that's all the jewels and it's the necklaces and jewelry and it's the, the pearls and the gold coins.
Speaker: But a lot of the stuff that pirates and privateers were selling were things like chocolate and coffee. And they were capturing slaves because that stuff was actually a heck of a lot more valuable because you could then take control of the market. And so a lot of pirates were actually going after that kind of stuff and taking over things like silk or ah fresh water or, you know, that's the kind of stuff that they were going after.
Speaker: Not so much like the tangible you know wealth that we that we typically think of. So those are a few facts. I've got a whole treasure trove, pun intended, of other facts as well of things that but Disney didn't necessarily get right.
Speaker: And things that they've actually kind of remedied now, right? This idea of Red in where where the women are no longer being auctioned off. But now you've got Red the pirate who's kind of stepped up as that that new strong um woman figure. You know, there were a lot of women pirates who were quite prominent ah in in pirate lore as well.
Speaker: That reminds me of the show ah Black Sails. ever heard of that show? I've heard of it. I've not seen it. Oh, it's great. It's great. I love that show. and Yeah, it does remind me of the Pirates the Caribbean movie because our I love watching it, but then I'm like, especially reading like treasure planet i mean Treasure Island or Kidnapped and how ah different the those books compared to Hollywoodized these movies are compared to you know um you know with the whole Jack Sparrow thing. And again, you're looking at it as it's Disney-fied, so it's going to be a lot more over the edge compared to the true...
Speaker: the through how the how the true pirates really were. Because, you know, like the first time when I saw the auction, i was like, really? that That's just, it just seemed too much compared to, you know, and and and reading reading on pirates, you know, especially like Captain Cook, people like that, and how they ah they handle themselves and they actually, you know, ah did good.
Speaker: they didn't They didn't basically go out and dealt with you know different – the Spanish or dealt with that. Yeah, in some ways they did, but – the way you look at it is totally different than how Hollywood spins it.
Speaker: and i am and and And it's unfortunate because you know when you when you ride to the Pirates of the Caribbean, you go into it and you know like you said, the first thing you smell is a bromine and then you're like you're like hooked back into...
Speaker: yeah Okay, we're going to see Barbossa, we're going to see Bill drinking with the cat, and you're going to see the the ah dog um with the keys.
Speaker: So, you know, that that's great that you brought up some of the other ones, but is there um now is is there any past rides that are are no longer at Disney that you wish you could actually worked on?
Speaker: they get the history on like, uh, some of the older ones. So I think world of motion would have been a fun one to kind of go through. Um, even though that one was,
Speaker: obviously not necessarily a ah serious attraction, right? It was, it's all meant to kind of just be tongue in cheek and, and funny. I mean, it does have the opportunity to be able to um kind of walk through like, okay, like what was like, oh, they're showing the invention of the wheel. And, you know, you've got the guy with a square wheel and the guy with a triangle wheel, and then you've got the the guy with a round wheel and,
Speaker: Hammurabi sitting up there and he's laughing at the guy with the round wheel because it's brilliant. and And obviously that's not historically accurate, but like what was the invention of the wheel or, you know, you've got the scene where everybody's on the highway and they're on the open road and you've got the family that's headed to Disneyland because they've got their, their mouse ears and you've got the college kids with their penance and okay, well, that's, that's cool. Yeah.
Speaker: But like, what is the history of the interstate highway system and how that kind of opened? And so almost like almost like a traveler's companion to the world of motion of like, oh, like this is what ah is actually going on. So as I'm sitting in this scene, even though it's funny and it's not accurate.
Speaker: This is kind of what's going on. So that's a good one. I think something even even something like Horizons. So I'm writing ah a magazine article for a Disney magazine right now about Horizons and even kind of that first quarter of the ride or first third of the ride where it's talking about like, oh we're going to look at the past and and what the past believed about the future and looking at the Jules Verne or, you know, looking at the 1950s view of the future with the robot butler and the robot cook and.
Speaker: and the robot haircut and massage guy and and kind of but the old time version of the future. And then even looking at, okay, did, did horizons get technology, right? Like they've, we're we're zooming with you right now.
Speaker: Well, they had kind of their video chat that they had between the different areas, but we're still not living under the water or on a, so on a space station or growing citrus in the desert.
Speaker: Yeah. Or have a hoverboard. What's what's up with that? Where's my hoverboard? Right. Right. Or even something like Delta Dream Flight and kind of going through again, that's another example like World of Motion that it's humorous and tongue in cheek, but it's going through the history of aviation. Like, I think that would have been, you know, a really cool one, too. And I've kind of thrown around the idea of doing like a historical tour of extinct attractions. Yeah.
Speaker: um But I don't know that that would be as as popular, especially if you didn't necessarily experiencing them. Unfortunately, a lot of my historical tour books are now historical tours of extinct attractions because so many things have changed since I wrote those books. They probably need an update. Like my Country Bear Jamboree chapter is completely obsolete as of this year because of the update. So...
Speaker: You like the update? Because I'm not a fan of it. I have not seen the new show yet. I'm hoping to see it this summer. um But I almost want to almost want to boycott it. because i yeah i i feel and After you go on it, once you want to boycott it, I'm telling you. That was my one of my favorite attractions. and i I'm just heartbroken.
Speaker: Yeah. ah So what what was, especially in Epcot, what was so the idea with Jules Verne? You know, ah because in both ah but World of Motion and The Timekeeper, I mean, those attractions, they really focused on that, but it just seems like...
Speaker: you know I know that i you know what he wrote and also with HG Wells and things like that. um It just seems like all sudden they just like went away with the those two rides.
Speaker: And I think, yeah especially Timekeeper, when I know it's hard to bring history back because people just don't want to have stand around and look at history all the time. They they want to see what's what's in the future.
Speaker: But it just seems like, um especially like Jules Verne and e sheet Wells and they' ah their impressions on on those two rides, and that um it's sad that they're gone, but Do you think more rides should be like that, more historical or um more more futuristic?
Speaker: I mean, I love the historical rides. Those are some of my favorites, like Pirates of the Caribbean, Spaceship Earth. Like I could go on Spaceship Earth three or four times in a single trip to Epcot. We always hit it on the way in and we always hit it on the way out.
Speaker: um Carousel of Progress is one of my all time favorites. um I think there's something to say as we get older. Now I'm an old soul, so I don't count, but as we get older of looking back at nostalgia, right. And being, and like the, the crew that went on the carousel of progress, when it came to the magic kingdom, they grew up with some of the stuff that, that John is talking about in the 1950s. And so there's something endearing about that.
Speaker: Like I understand Walt said that Disneyland and Disney world are an ever changing place. I would love a theme park where everything that I grew up with stayed the same, like the Jeremy Irons version of Spaceship Earth. Bring that baby back.
Speaker: you know the the uh ellen's energy adventure even though controversy like mean that was that was what i grew up with still i haven't been on guardians of the galaxy but i would i would take ellen's energy adventure anytime be happy so going on some of that old stuff yeah well here's the thing too here's what and james i know i know king james you got you got something to ask so we're i'm gonna i'm not i know i i have you in my heart in my mind but But here's here's what I wonder.
Speaker: I wonder if, you know, when Walt said that that, right, Disney was still in sort of a place of, it meant you know, good when you talk about good art, good art is timeless. And it's meant to be timeless. It's not meant to be...
Speaker: art that just is here for a summer or a sweeps week or whatever it is. it It's meant stick. And would i how I feel about art, I'm not saying Disney art, I'm just saying all art in general, is getting very, very more transient. It gets more and more...
Speaker: It's here one day, and then it's... What was that movie again? Oh, yeah. No, what was that? Oh, that was oh last summer that they popped that out. And it comes and it goes.
Speaker: Well, Disney used to really be when they would slow it, they would make a movie, and you knew, okay, is like let's all get ready. This new movie's coming out, because it took years to make this story.
Speaker: It took years to animate it. took years to find the right voice actors. took years. And so when they would incorporate that into Disneyland, I think it was like, sure, they earned that keep.
Speaker: But now it's just sort of like, oh, yeah, yeah, here, you know, know with this new, that thing that we cranked out last year, yeah, that's going to replace that old ride that you love and that story that took a, you know, it had a pivotal part of Disney. But no, no, no, this new thing that we just...
Speaker: like pooped out yeah yeah that's totally gonna take over well that's not I don't think it's crotchety or old I think it's I think what it is is just So I agree with Walt when he's like, you know, this isn't... Disneyland needs to is it it needs to be progressive. It needs to move forward. It can't just stay in the past.
Speaker: But here's a big question. What do you do when the stuff that's coming out now is... I don't know. it's it's It's, you know, what do you do when when the people look at the past and go, man, it just doesn't have the heart or it doesn't have the right, the same storytelling.
Speaker: i don't think that's just old people, you know, lingo, you know, missing the the days of once was. I actually think it's a very...
Speaker: that That's a critique on art and and art nowadays. you know What do you think about that? like do you think it's do you think and How do you how do you i guess here's my question how do you sort of navigate the tension between the new which is maybe not maybe really good sometimes but not always But the old that took a lot longer and sort of has not only more nostalgia, but really has a lot more by time and energy. and stuff
Speaker: you know does that Does that make sense at all? Yeah, I think. Okay, thank you. yeah and i so So I think i think one of the things that that is a trend that we're getting away from. And I know this is a big argument in the community yeah is original attractions versus IP attraction. Yes.
Speaker: You nailed it. Thank you for saying what i wanted to say. That's it. That's it. Right. Like Haunted Mansion and Pirates, right? They're classic for a reason. Yes. we're on um And like when when Curse of the Black Pearl came out in 2003, like it was awesome, right? Because they added all of those little nods back to the attraction in the film.
Speaker: And even Dead Men's Chest. But then they went back and they added elements from the movie yeah yeah into the ride. and And the argument was, well, when people come to Walt Disney World and they go on Pirates of the Caribbean, they want to see Jack Sparrow.
Speaker: And I want to be like, okay, well, what people are are they? Let me talk to them. Yeah. Who, who? Show me who it is that says that they want to watch Jack Sparrow. Yeah. Or is it really just an opportunity to advertise the next movie that came out, which was not very good?
Speaker: Yeah. um But even thinking about something like, you know, Tron, you know, that movie came out in what, like 2013, and thirteen and they're they're going to release a new one. But that ride, even though it's based upon an IP, it's not a current IP, but yet it's still popular. And yeah, you've got the thrill behind it, but I think it's popular because it's thrilling. It's not popular because of a film.
Speaker: yeah Whereas it's like, okay, you're getting rid of dinosaur, which then they created the dinosaur movie, but you're putting in Kanto there and Indiana Jones, which are based upon IPs. Well, what happens?
Speaker: Indiana Jones has become timeless though. It's pretty timeless. Yes. i Yeah. Yeah. yeah But what happens 20 years down the road when Encanto is not as popular anymore? Right. Encanto is not as popular. I mean, f Frozen is bad. Indiana Jones is sort of like, it's Indiana Jones, Star Wars, you know, some of these, i what was an IP sort of proves itself in...
Speaker: in pop culture history and become something that will transcend space and time in history, you know, you know, but not everything does. And, and that the way you said IP versus, what did you say? IP versus ah original?
Speaker: Yeah. Well, that's just well very well said. Right. Yeah. And a fit, too, because I think, I don't even think Indiana Jones fits he fits into Animal Kingdom. I'm sorry. I just don't understand that one at all. It doesn doesn't seem, it's just basically they're putting it there to match the ride that's in Disneyland that's very good, but they know they wanted to try to use the same tracks and the same cars and do it the same way. And I just don't, to me, I don't, i don't that's a big stretch.
Speaker: It's a big stretch. Right. The only thing my eyes I can see it being anywhere in Animal Kingdom is the jungles, and lot of Indiana Jones, especially Temple of Doom, takes place in the jungle. Yeah, archaeology, you know. It feels like geographically it fits, sort of, or sort of, like, you know.
Speaker: So I sort of get that, but but I don't know. like Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's part of why Epcot worked as well as it did. back in the eighties, because there was no IP. Like there's a story about how people would go into Epcot and they were walking in there like, well where's Mickey mouse.
Speaker: We're at Disney world and there's no Mickey mouse. and And they were like, well, that's not really our focus here. If you want to see Mickey go to the magic kingdom. And people were such in an outrage that then they brought those really creepy, big heads, like nine foot tall walk around doll things.
Speaker: Right. um And then they started creating their own original, uh characters for attraction that's where figment came in yeah don't even get me started on journey into imagination they got to pull in you know honey i shrunk the kids and that whole thing that then ruined figment but oh now i know we' know we've had that podcast sharing the magic season one we all go back and now we we had that discussion and we've yeah but no i agree agreed agreed Well, who else? What else?
Speaker: What's all burning on your mind? Hey, you know I think this is an interesting discussion as far as the parks. Because I think we're sort of in a place where, mean, it's not just Disney. it's sort of the world in which we live in.
Speaker: Things are a-changing and things are- What do you think of Tom Sawyer Island? That's a great one. There you go Jeff, that's a great one. What do you think about what's going on with Tom Sawyer Island and the riverboat? That's another one that really bothers me.
Speaker: So I will i will admit, i will confess, I have only been on the riverboat one time and I'm pretty sure I've only done Tom Sawyer Island one time. I'm sorry.
Speaker: Don't cry. no and you shouldn't because you look, I will say, i will say to me, cars does not fit in frontier land. If you're going to put cars anywhere, put them in Hollywood hollywood studios and,
Speaker: But also, like even if I have not gone on Tom Sawyer Island and don't go on the riverboat again, there's something establishing about them being there.
Speaker: I feel like I am... along the Mississippi river, seeing the river boat. And it puts me in frontier land and Liberty square, or I see Tom Sawyer Island and it fits, you know, you've, you've got the, the, the grist mill that's out there by aunt Polly's that's just turning. And it's like, okay, but you're establishing place. Like I was having this conversation with a couple of my boys.
Speaker: I've got twin 13 year olds and we were having this conversation after all the D23 announcements. And I said, can you imagine walking around in frontier land coming out of Pecos bills and you hear the sound of race cars driving by like, that's just completely killing the atmosphere of the that you're supposed to be in the old West in the 1860s, 1870s era.
Speaker: And they can kind of make Tiana fit. Yeah. Kind of, because as you progress from Liberty Square through Frontierland towards Adventureland, you're not only moving forward in time, but you're then moving southward and westward.
Speaker: So, you know, the Louisiana, because that's that's the south plantation area, that's where Splash Mountain was supposed to take place. And then as you move into Adventureland, then you're moving even farther south down into the Caribbean and getting into imperialism and all that all that kind of bit.
Speaker: But... So you can kind of justify Tiana. Yeah. I like that. not You're not being over... You know, I just hit 40. I've got really check myself.
Speaker: This is a podcast called Sharing the Magic. I've got to share the magic. I can't just be like, sharing the So I think... you know so i think I think that's well said, though, it's balanced. It's like, well, you know, it's not I'm not just trashing on things, but it's ah it's is the word is diagnostic.
Speaker: Diagnostic. And I love that. There's tons of room on here to be diagnostic. Now, St. James over here had a question, or correct? I'm not an infirmary, by the way.
Speaker: St. James Infirmary. Come on now. Get it right. It's James. I'm sorry. It's King James. Get right. King James. St. James. All right. Heavy is the head that wears the crown, you guys. Thanks. Okay. Okay. Just.
Speaker: So, no, my my question going back, but I actually going back to it, something that Barry said earlier. Yes, yeah i want history resurrected. Gosh, darn it. I want the people mover back in Disneyland.
Speaker: And it was due to a Jules Verne idea that ruined that damned track, by the way. So. I will argue that till my day's days done. That's my question.
Speaker: It goes back to your your idea of doing a book, and you hear some of your stuff is already outdated. One is is it one of those things you go back and maybe append um the books because of the different things that have changed? And also, could it spawn a whole new series of books through the history of Disney? Because there is a lot of...
Speaker: forgotten attractions or lost attractions due to um time, ah you know, time forgotten, like the Encanto House or even ah the Skyway into Tomorrow at Disneyland going through the Matterhorn, stuff like that that, that people may, yeah, there may not be a an outwardly large culture, but I do think there's a large subset of Disney folks who would love to hear that. Yeah, it's talked about, but it's not so...
Speaker: Thank James, that's a lot of questions you just asked. but Well, no, it's just one immersive question is what it is. Hey, you know what? it's why It fits in the box. um But is it is it one of those things you go back and maybe write a whole other series of books or append your books or add some different things?
Speaker: think it's totally a possibility. I mean, you kind of tie in in Disney history and looking at you would you would be more focused on Disney history than it would be on real history. Right. Because the the current series of books is more focused on how Disney has represented real history.
Speaker: which I do a little bit of the the the real history background stuff, right? When I talk about the Country Bears, I'm talking about, um you know, the the ski resort that Walt created that the Country Bears were originally for. When I talk about Adventureland, I've got a chapter on Adventureland and we talk about um the Tiki culture.
Speaker: And so we we touch on that a little bit. So I think it's definitely an option, things like flight to the moon and talking about some of those little attractions.
Speaker: We're talking about Splash Mountain. I know Jim Korkus, some of his stuff, um when he would do his books, he talked about some of those old attractions. But even things like ah the old Epcot attractions, like i've I've even tried to find stuff online. Like I have very vivid memories of the Living Seas prior to it being Nemo and like going in the Hydro Lators. And like, unless you know to look for that stuff, you don't you don't find it online. And even some of like the old videos that you see, like Martin's videos, Martin does a really good job on YouTube of going through and and recreating from different videos that he had taken.
Speaker: of documenting those old attractions. But again, unless you know to go look for them, you're not going to see them. So anything to kind of bring that back, some of that old stuff, or even just the different iterations of Spaceship Earth.
Speaker: Like, you know, before Jeremy Irons, you had other other ways as well. You had the Walter Cronkite ah going through with Tomorrow's Child. Like, there's there's definitely a rich harvest.
Speaker: But unfortunately, it looks like, you know, that series would be an ongoing series because of the stuff that's just starting to phase out. I think it's it's sad when you when when you think about it, because the only time I've heard of most of these old rides is by listening can i listen to Subsonic Radio. And they play a lot of like ah the Hydroletters, some of the older ones, like Delta Dream Fight.
Speaker: Dream Flight, where where it has one of the the best songs of all time on there, because love that. So I actually downloaded it, has have it as one of my alarms in the morning. but But you're right, because it feels like Disney and the Imagineers have this what what have you done for me lately kind of vibe when it comes to the parks.
Speaker: And it's more of, okay, let's change. Instead of let's fix this up and make it better, Let's put something else in there. And unfortunately, i i don't feel that's totally the vibe that Walt was giving off.
Speaker: Because there are untouchables that you don't mess with, like Carousel Progress or Tiki Room. But who knows in 20 years what that will look like. Because if you're already doing it with some, why can't I do it with some and I can't do it with all?
Speaker: And it's sad because won't be your mom and dad's park much longer. It's going to be something totally, you know, the car's land, the car lands, which drives me crazy thinking of where they want to put it and how much of the history is going to be gone in that area.
Speaker: You know, eventually, who knows what's going to happen the Hall Presidents, things like that. Are they going to eventually just take it out? that Oh, I hope not. Because um they don't want to offend anybody, so it's going go out because of that.
Speaker: You know, you have to look at it. ah You know, they try to spruce it up by putting the Muppets in there for a while to get more more more attraction over there. It just it seems like there's certain areas that need to be left alone.
Speaker: And when you get younger and younger Imagineers coming in and unfortunately, these young Imagineers, they're going to want to make a mark in a park somewhere to say, down the road, I worked on this. you know Instead of saying, look,
Speaker: hey look Rolly Crump worked on this one or Bob Gurr worked on this one or Claude Coates worked on this one. It's not going to matter because someone is always going to want have ah legacy where in 20 to 30 years, somebody is going to say, Oh, Joe Thompson worked on this one.
Speaker: Can you believe how awesome this is? Look at this. You know, right. You know, you gotta, you gotta, You got to make a choice. And unfortunately, they're not expanding, they're replacing. And that's the state of the parks now. And that's unfortunate for those who worked their entire lives to create something that is at one time was beloved by everybody.
Speaker: Man. All right, Barry, you're not wrong. No. You know, on that same on that same note, like, Innoventions was but such a cool place. And that was the place where I thought it would be a playground for the Imagineers. They can go in and put new things in there, try them out.
Speaker: And it was a great... My family loved that. we had such We had so many great memories there. And then just get rid of the whole thing. i just don't understand that one. And I still look at it now. What's there that... that That one facility looks like a prison rec room.
Speaker: I don't know what, you know, community court hall. I just don't understand what was why you know what was the benefit of doing that. That's the thing. I want to know, okay, if there's a change that needs to be made, yes, but make a good one.
Speaker: But don't make something just for the sake of making a change. right Right. think there's a little bit of a move. I think Disney is trying to recognize its legacy and and trying to keep some of that. Like the example that I go back to, and I know it's been a long time now, is when Zazu and Iago finally got set on fire in the Tiki Room and they decided to bring the Tiki Room back. Like, got got got rid of that terrible...
Speaker: under new management and and went back to their roots and brought their history back um like i i i believe in my heart of hearts carousel progress is not going to go anywhere like if anything they're going to freshen up that final scene um but i think i think there's wisdom regardless of or at least there's there's vetting from the older generation of imagineers of like okay these are the things that we will not touch um You know, Muppets, more Muppet Vision 3D, that breaks my heart, partially because I grew up with that. But that was also the last thing Jim Henson worked on before he passed.
Speaker: So it it it seems like there's a little bit of of lip service that they're moving it over to Rock and Roller Coaster, essentially or especially because it seems like Aerosmith is kind of on its way out. But like some of that stuff, I feel like Disney is still kind of acknowledging that.
Speaker: you know kind of its past and and the things that they don't touch and i think a lot of that is this things that kind of have their connections back to disneyland like they're never going to get rid of mansion or pirates they might shift it but they ah then you go back to that whole piece of relevancy right when somebody goes to the parks you know they want to see anna and elsa so we've got to make sure that we include them somewhere yeah i love that word you used it's a good word wisdom And the reason why I think wisdom is such a good word is because, well, it's not as if we, you know, oh, we just can't. not we
Speaker: Some things, some IPs need to be enfolded into the parks. This isn't yesterday land. This isn't this is, you know, everything does need to move forward.
Speaker: But at the same time, you can't just, oh, here's our newest thing, like dinosaurs, right? Or something that's just like, oh, here here's the new we're going to completely change it. And then it like bombs, you know, and it's like, OK, what do we do now? Well, some of these things are timeless.
Speaker: And you have to, wisdom means you sort of hold on to the things that are timeless and you sort of unfold the things that are timely, timely.
Speaker: But right. So like frozen is timely. It's like, wow, look at this. Cool. Let's bring it in. But how do you decipher between the two? Wisdom. And you said it well. I think wisdom is it's sort of that middle ground between it's not, we're not all, oh, you know, they shouldn't change anything. I just want to keep it the way it was. Well, it's not. And it shouldn't.
Speaker: But at the same time, Disneyland should not be just anything new. It's just, it's transient. It's just moves forward. Every, everything just gets rebranded, rebranded every, because for every movie that comes out, just gets some new ride gets usurped and gets, you know, reconditioned it and rebranded. That's not great either.
Speaker: It shouldn't be like that. But how do you, how do you, ah I don't know, wisdom. Thank you, Andrew.
Speaker: If they give it canoes, I'm rioting, by the way. does I love the canoes at Disneyland. Florida doesn't have them, but they give a canoes, I riot. Well, wisdom is sort of that middle ground. You know what i mean? Like, how do you how do you bring certain things in the new?
Speaker: how do you How do you preserve things of the old? And then where're then and then what's how do you decide what gets preserved and what gets gets brought in the new? Well, it's that word wisdom, you know? Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I think there's definitely been things that have been updated that ah that have been good updates. Like Test Track 2.0 was better than the original. And I'm hoping that Test Track 3.0 is better than 2.0, which is from from all indications looks like they're kind of going back to World of Motion a little bit when it comes to to the new Test Track. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. See, that's where they should put your guys' as cars land, because it it fits the mold. The test track is already there. You know, because that's that's all they did in California is they took the the test track model from Florida and transplanted it to California. So why not reverse engineer in a way and take what you've already put in California and just rebrand it, as Jeff was saying earlier, with an IP that is already fairly popular on an attraction that is already super popular.
Speaker: You keep the history... Frozen ain't going anywhere, man. Like, you can't... Like, you could bring that back, you can, well, not just, it's not just that, but it's it's other, there's there's there's i p that sort of,
Speaker: And I like that. I like that, that, um, the language of IP, it becomes an IP, but then it sort of gets, it plants roots and it's like, okay, what, what IPs plant roots? And, oh, they're getting rooted. oh man.
Speaker: Well, maybe that, maybe, maybe at that point it's like, okay, now maybe there needs to be like a, a, a certain like year or two or three. We're like, okay, this, before we just,
Speaker: blast something that you love and rebrand it. Well, maybe maybe you know you let a new IP take root. But they're not going to go back and get some old IPs. You're not gonna you're not going to see a Apple Dumpling Gang ride coming up or something like that. For me, I would. yeah yeah we would like it, but I don't think dont think the young generation would like that.
Speaker: Well, fine. Okay, I'm going to shut up. Okay. All you need to do all you need to do is just take one of the cars out of the Tomorrowland Speedway, paint it like Lightning McQueen.
Speaker: You know what mean? I would just like anything goofy. I'd be like a goofy movie. I'd be like... ah goofy movie and be like yeah Yeah, that's rooted. Apple Dumpling Gang, you said that. I'm like, huh, yeah, but... The Rockers Roller Coaster, do you make it Apple Dumpling Gang? i mean, it would be great, but... I would.
Speaker: I wouldn't hate that. I'd be like... They're going to turn that into... We made you laugh. I love it. ah but what You're not wrong, man. You're not wrong.
Speaker: Next thing you want to say is we're going to turn Slinky Dog's Dash into Pete's Dragon attraction. Like Herbie the love bug. Can we just make Autotopia? it's Just all Herbies.
Speaker: Alright. I don't know. This is getting squirrely. Let's go. um but yeah But it's fun. It's fun though. Alright. Before we sign out, why don't you go ahead and let our listeners know about your website.
Speaker: Yeah. So my website is
Speaker: On that website, you can see excerpts of some of my books. You can see all of the books that I've written so far. I'll occasionally post blog posts. But something that I'm super excited about with my website is that a lot of the research that I have done has been either ah cited or annotated or even uploaded to my websites. So a lot of the research that I did on my World's Fair books in particular have been scanned and uploaded to my websites so that those who are interested in learning more
Speaker: about great moments with Mr. Lincoln or looking at the ah memos that were sent in between Wed and Robert Moses, the fair czar, or even if you really want to get down into the into the weeds about invoices for the Ford Motor Company about the lounges that they built and the type of cloth that they put on their couches. Like if that really interests you, you can see all of those documents on the website as well.
Speaker: um And so, you know, extensive, extensive research. There are lots of cool things. There's photographs on there. um But it's it's ah it's a neat resource resource for anybody that's interested in learning more, not only about my books, but about the information that I've written about as well.
Speaker: but i was going say, Andrew, just so great to have you. Well, thank you. It's been fun to be here. Yeah, it really was. And Barry, back to you, my friend. Yeah, ah going off of King Jeff, I'm overwhelmed by information you've given wish there was home for...
Speaker: overwhelmed by the information you given so i wish i too wish it there was a home for Forgotten rides like the Forgotten Toys in Rudolph, you know, one little land that they all can go and play and we all can sit there and get on Snow White Scary Adventures.
Speaker: you know, Mr. Toad's wild ride, WDW version, um and things like that. So I am thankful that you came on and I'm, I'm, I'm happy that we were able to hear your information and all that hard work you've done. And, um, we have to have you on again, cause we have to hear more history and more, more good stuff from you. Well, thank you. It's been a lot of fun.
Speaker: Yeah. All right.
Speaker: Thank you for joining us for another enchanting episode of Sharing the Magic. We are the Thinking Fans Podcast, an edutainment show where education and entertainment collide each week. We bring you whimsical interviews with Disney guests who share their magical experiences and reveal how they are woven into the Disney fabric.
Speaker: Don't forget to hit that follow button to stay updated on our latest episodes. Spread the word and let your friends know they can tune in wherever they enjoy their favorite podcasts. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and X, formerly Twitter, at at sharing the magic pod.
Speaker: Until next time, keep sharing the magic.
