Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 74: Sandro Cleuzo
49 Plays2 months ago
This week we are joined by award-winning animator Sandro Cleuzo as he shares stories from his amazing career in the industry.
DISCLAIMER: We are not an affiliate of the Walt Disney Company nor do we speak for the brand or the company. Any and all Disney-owned audio, characters, and likenesses are their property and theirs alone.
Recommended
Transcript
Intro & Theme Overview
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to Sharing the Magic, the podcast that takes you on a journey through the enchanting worlds of Disney. Each week, we're joined by a special guest, whether they're a magician creating moments of astonishment or a Disney expert sharing the secrets behind the magic of the happiest place on Earth. Together we'll uncover the stories, inspirations, and behind the scenes tales that bring these worlds to life.
Host & Guest Introduction
00:00:32
Speaker
So, get ready to be spellbound and transported to a place where dreams come true.
00:00:54
Speaker
Hello, welcome to the latest episode of Sharing the Magic. I'm your host, Barry, and you haven't heard me in a while, but I'm glad to be back. And we have a very great guest tonight joining us, and we're going to learn more about him in a minute. But first, I want to say hello to our co-hosts joining us. First, let's say hello to Brian. Brian, how you doing tonight? I'm doing great. Thank you. Glad to be here. And this is a very, I'm very excited for this episode tonight.
00:01:24
Speaker
Awesome. All right, next we have Dawn. Dawn, how are you doing tonight? Hi, I'm doing great. Had a good weekend, busy, looking forward to not thinking about work and hearing some fun stuff about Disney. Yeah, a lot of times life gets in the way and it's always great to talk to Disney when you can. So last but not least, we have Lisa joining us. How are you doing Lisa?
00:01:46
Speaker
I am great. How is everyone? i am I am looking forward to speaking with our guests tonight, especially because of all of the the amazing projects that he's worked on. I can't wait to hear some of those.
Sandro's Disney Influence
00:02:02
Speaker
Absolutely and before we jump into our guest tonight I want to just just say how grateful um I have been as well as the rest of the co-hosts have been of all the guests that we have that come on here and talk Disney with us each week and like I said tonight is no different than before.
00:02:27
Speaker
Tonight, I am incredibly thankful for having this guest on because we tried to have him on before and we had to reschedule. So I'm glad it worked out. And I can't wait to hear all about his incredible journey through Disney and any other stuff that he he has or had throughout throughout his career. So without further ado, I would like to introduce our guest, Sandro Cluso. How are you doing tonight?
00:02:55
Speaker
and Very good. I'm very glad to be here. Very happy to be here with you guys. Yes, we are so incredibly thankful for you to be here. um Sandra, let's let's jump into this one of the questions I like to ask when I'm doing the podcast is how you ah fell in love with Disney or how you got into Disney. Why don't why don't you go ahead and and tell our listeners about about that.
00:03:16
Speaker
Well, OK, it's a long story, but I'll try to come dance. When I was a kid, I used to watch cartoons like every kid, right? um On TV, I grew up watching Saturday morning cartoons. um I'm from Brazil. I was born in Brazil, Sao Paulo, Brazil. I remember in the 70s, we used to have like a whole block of cartoons in the afternoon.
00:03:39
Speaker
on one of the TV stations here. And I remember coming back from school and after lunch I would be, you know, going to the TV set and watch cartoons all afternoon. um And also I used to copy the cartoons. I used to draw them. I had like sketches, that like sketchbooks and crayons. And I used to copy the cartoons ah as I watched them.
00:04:02
Speaker
So I grew up with with lots of cartoons, all kinds of cartoons, Americans, Japanese, European cartoons, all kinds of car cartoons. But for me, ah Disney cartoons were special because I could tell, even even though I was ah as a kid, I could tell the Disney characters moved better. They had more, but the animation was, it feel it felt more alive.
00:04:23
Speaker
And there was something special about the way they moved and the way they were drawn and the color. So I was very much drawing to that that style, the Disney style. Then I started working, I was very young. I was 15 when I started working in commercials, TV commercials, which was my school. I never went to school for drawing or ah or animation. I learned on the job working on commercials.
00:04:51
Speaker
And after a few years in commercials, I went to work for Dan Bluth, which was a former Disney you know animator. I'm sure you guys know the story of Dan Bluth. So I went to work for Dan Bluth and from Dan Bluth after four, actually six years with Dan Bluth, I went to Disney. So what what were some of the, ah you know, you used to watch some of the cartoons in the 70s. What were some of the cartoons that you used to watch that you select to draw?
00:05:18
Speaker
Yeah, I used to watch and like lots of Japanese. The American ones that I loved were the woodpecker. and And the Hanna-Barbera ones, Yogi Bear, the Jetsons, all those classic Hanna-Barbera cartoons, I used to love it for the design, mostly, because i I knew the animation wasn't what I liked it, because i like like I said, I liked it i like the animation that Disney
00:05:51
Speaker
did like the full animation. But I used to love the the designs of the Hanna-Barbera ones. The drawings were very interesting for me, you know. So I used to watch Hanna-Barbera, Woody-Woodpecker, and I used to draw Woody-Woodpecker very well, actually, because used I used to copy the character a lot from from the shows. Some Japanese ones that I don't even remember much.
00:06:18
Speaker
There's one that was called Batfink. Have ah have you ever heard of Batfink? It was a little bat character, superhero. I do remember Batfink, yes, I do. I remember, okay, yeah, he had a like a ah sidekick, ah which you was ah Japanese, are like Karate.
Classic vs. Modern Animation
00:06:34
Speaker
Karate, I think he his name was Karate, his sidekick. It was very funny. um I used to copy that, I used to draw Batfink a lot too.
00:06:44
Speaker
But mostly I used to love Woody Woodpecker a lot, which was very popular in Brazil. It still is to this day. Very popular character here. Yeah, Woody's great. Yeah.
00:06:57
Speaker
And I think one of the one other the thing is, like I remember growing up, you used to have like Captain Cave Man. You used to have yeah out the Wacky Races. You used to have, um like you said, Yogi Bear, the Flintstones, things like that. so and i And I think looking at it, especially when you're a kid, you look at those cartoons. And the first time you ever you ever seen a Disney movie,
00:07:27
Speaker
yeah As you get older, then you can separate the two and say, hey, oh, but but when you were a kid, those those were just cartoons. There was no A or B. so So what was the first Disney movie that got you interested into but drawing Disney characters? Well, I think the first one I remember seeing, watching, um was that the Aristocats.
00:07:54
Speaker
That was the first one that I went to the cinema, to the theater to see because yeah at at that time they used to release every five, six years. I'm not sure, but something like that. It took a long time to reshoot the features.
00:08:10
Speaker
So I remember they were really showing the aristocats and I went to see that on the, it was my first Disney feature film and I loved it. I loved the you know i love the the style the style, the design, I loved the du animation. It was so different than, I knew it was different than the classic, like Peter Pan or, you know, Cinderella. I think it was different because of the line quality. And even though I was young, I could tell there's something is different, but it's still interesting. It's too nice to to watch. But I could tell the difference. It's funny that even to this day, Thomas O'Malley is my favorite Disney Disney character. He's a great character. Yeah, it's a great character. Classic character that doesn't get enough credit.
00:08:55
Speaker
yeah Yeah, true. and The one I love the most is the sequence with the geese. Uncle Waldo. ah so it It's amazing animations, beautiful design. It's just funny. It's just really entertaining. you That's a great one. Yeah. Cause it has to, we have to get more people to go back and look at some of these classics because a lot of the young kids don't do that. So they don't understand that value and the love cause it's still, they're still good. There's, you can watch them again. They're still great. They're still great classics.
00:09:28
Speaker
I agree, I agree. they It's funny, I talk to many students, animation students, and I give workshops, and I meet many of them. They don't they don't even watch those classic movies anymore. it's It's very sad to me. and I tell them, listen, watch these films because you can learn so much from them you still. I agree.
00:09:52
Speaker
Well, it's it's funny you say that because I think a lot of people in their minds, I think there's like a wall between I think the wall is the Little Mermaid. And I think people start with the Little Mermaid and go forward. They don't go backwards.
00:10:13
Speaker
you have you have people that that will will talk about Peter Pan they will talk about Alice in Wonderland they will talk about Snow White and Cinderella but then you know there's a lot of movies that people don't talk about and I think a lot of it had to do is the hard push that Disney Pictures came out with with the wood Little Mermaid and how it just it just looked it looked different and And it kind of reminds me of like when you look at a brand new car You're like wow look at all these features, but if you put it next to an older car You're like well their cars is just one is better than the other but no they still run the same way It's just
00:10:58
Speaker
the presentation of it and and it's unfortunate because you know some of the some of the movies that you had the honor to to work on a lot of them don't get the same billing than a lot of other movies do and that's unfortunate because when you say it's a Disney movie or Disney product unfortunately people look at it and say it's kind of the what have you done for me lately it's great but you know compared to this movie it's And I think a lot, is that a struggle for animators though, when they look at it? Because in your mind, you want to present the best, best thing forward, but in the end, you know, it's kind of a, you're you're in the catch 22.
00:11:44
Speaker
but yeah Yeah, its it's very it's very difficult for us. First of all, um the animators, well, especially when I was there, I don't know, maybe before it was different, but we didn't have anything to do with the story.
00:11:59
Speaker
we We maybe could suggest something, but usually not. Usually we're just animated. So I talk about my friends too. We all did our best. Our best animation. We worked so hard and we're proud of the movies we made.
00:12:17
Speaker
but then it's released and you know it doesn't do well and we just we just don't know we just feel like sad but we worked as an animator i worked so hard on all my scenes on my shots and i tried to do my best the best i can and but there's no control on this there's i mean there's nothing we can do about about this story it's a different department But it's it's difficult for us, because sometimes we do a beautiful movie, like, comedy range, I think is beautiful. Yeah, and beautiful. so it is design the The design is amazing. It's by my friend, Joe Mosier. He was the designer, amazing artist. And animation is, I think is great. The animation that Delbert did on the Dylan and the rabbit has great scenes. And it's just beautiful. The the backgrounds are
00:13:08
Speaker
amazing, just amazing. um But the movie didn't do well. um People, you know, they see the story is not good. or But again, as as an animator, we didn't have control on that, you know, as historic people and directors, and we just had to animate.
00:13:28
Speaker
You know, and I think the story is good. And it's funny that you said. Yeah, I like it, too. Yeah. I think it's another one. I know my kids are watching. They like it. And the story is good. It's just that I think at the time he came out yeah and the competition that was there at that time, it just didn't sit well. If it had come out at different times, who knows? Yeah. Yeah. But many people complain about the movie that movie. They don't have many. This is Galway the Cow. we could but My last name is Galway.
00:13:59
Speaker
Well, and I think another thing is it's like, you know, Brian, you hit it on the head because I think i think timing is everything because you look in a movie like Treasure Planet or a movie like, you know, The Black Cauldron, but yeah movies like that, where I think, um and and the the best example is a movie that you worked on, Tandro, The Emperor's New Group. I think a lot of it, a lot of these movies that um are not extremely popular. I think they're they're niche movies. I think people, you know, there's like a handful but handful of people who love the movie. You know, I'm a huge Emperor's New Group fan. And I think, and and and it just rubs me the wrong way when everyone was like, hu I'm like, there is just so much in it. And even Croc's New Group, the sequel after,
00:14:52
Speaker
I think think a lot of it has to do with, you know, i just some of these movies, I just don't remember how hard Disney pushed them when they when they came to the theater.
00:15:03
Speaker
ah they did they did didn't yeah Right. and and and And it's sad because, like like you said, you you guys all worked hard hard on it. you had um you know You put your expressions, you put your hard work into it. And for it to be, I guess, for it to be cast aside for something better. It's always like, you know, you see something that was shiny. you You always want to go after it. and But you know, just one thing, the de emperors knew Groove it became a cult.
00:15:34
Speaker
cult movie, because I know, like, for example, in Italy, it's so big there. Everybody loves that movie in Italy. when when When I go to Italy and I talk to the students, and they all love the in-person group, they want me to draw the characters for them. It's very big there. It's very popular. um and Also, um um right now, I'm in Brazil. Here, it's very popular, too. It's amazing, though. is It became a, slowly, but it became a cult movie. you know Yeah, my my daughter, one of my daughters, her name is Mackenzie, is that's her favorite movie. She actually goes on these big tirades about the fact that it's so underappreciated. People should like it more. And she she goes out of her way to to get people to watch it. And she's oh, no, she's one I mean, she'd love to talk to you so funny because I wish I had known I would had her come on. But but this this is um
00:16:26
Speaker
it's It's great because it is one that you can still watch that today again. Oh, yeah. You will laugh. You people will laugh. that i I guarantee you totally. Yes. I if you can't if you watch that movie and you do not laugh, there's something wrong with you.
00:16:40
Speaker
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's funny because ah I worked on animation and sometimes I don't laugh as ah but like a ah regular people a watches. But this one I laughed even though I worked on it. It's so funny. yeah I still laugh at the scene. I do too. She watches it all the time and I watch it again with her and I still laugh. yeah And I think it has something, you know, if you're looking at it, like, especially the in-person group, I mean, this was like Eartha Kitt's kind of last big hurrah with we're ah doing easement in both in both of the movies. And it's sad because when you when you mention it to people and you say, well, it has David Spade in it, it has Wendy Malick, it has Patrick Warburton has Eartha Kitt. Yeah. And they're like, so.
00:17:29
Speaker
You know what, maybe I need to move to Italy or to Brazil.
Sandro's Animation Projects
00:17:33
Speaker
i mean Maybe i can i pre I'll be around like minded people but um I'll go ahead and I'll turn it over to Lisa and Don and Brian and you guys can ask whatever questions you need to.
00:17:45
Speaker
um I was going to ask a question about Tarzan. So that you were an additional animator in Tarzan. Can you talk about that just a little bit? Sure. What happened to to Tarzan is that they had to, we're working on other projects, right? But then um if I remember correctly, there are some story changes I think it was The Emperor's New Groove, actually, because The Emperor's New Groove, I don't know if you guys know, but it became started as a it's a different movie. It it became The Emperor's New Groove, but it used to be called Kingdom in the Sun. And it was a different totally different story, a different director, different tone. It was a more epic kind of movie. ah They had some of the characters, ah like Isma, but it was very different. But anyway, we
00:18:37
Speaker
It didn't go well with the screening. They had to redo the story. So I remember Tarzan needed some help to finish the animation. So they put everybody to work on Tarzan to help out. So that's that's why I animated a few scenes, just to help out finishing the movie, because we're waiting for the story changes for the Emperor's new groove. That's what happened.
00:19:03
Speaker
Well, that's definitely something to be proud of, because I don't think that there is anyone alive that doesn't know what Tarzan is. Oh, yeah. That was a big movie. That was a big movie. I didn't do much of Tarzan, i just ah because I was ah doing additional animation, helping out. And I was kind of new at Disney at the time. They they didn't know me much. So they gave me gorillas to do. So I did most gorillas in walking, in the background. So just to help out.
00:19:34
Speaker
That's neat. so i have So how about the Proud family? That's a very interesting one. um did you so did you do a lot did you have to Did you animate a bunch of different people on there? That's a very different compared to some of the other ones.
00:19:50
Speaker
and The proud family, what happened was, I didn't work on the TV series. ah they They made a feature film that came out on DVD, the whole full feature film with the proud family. And on the DVD,
00:20:05
Speaker
It wasn't theatrical, it was like on the DVD that was released. ah With the DVD, they put like a bonus, which was like a three-minute sequence, and the director and the creator, Bruce Smith, he so so he knew me from the disney you know from working at Disney with him.
00:20:27
Speaker
so So he asked me if I could do these three minutes as a studio. And I was here in Brazil at the time. what That was when I left Disney. I was here, I opened a studio you here, a small studio to do animation. And that was my first project as a studio.
00:20:47
Speaker
And that was to do the three minutes, the the whole thing, from storyboarding all the way through cleanup. And I couldn't handle inking paint at the time. So inking painting was done in in Canada, in another studio. But yeah I was able to animate with a team. I got a team here in Brazil, and I did the layouts, I did the you know some of the designs, and I kind of directed that segment ah for Bruce. Actually, Bruce was the director, but I was kind of ah producing here the whole thing for him. And I would send the the the cleanup drawings to Canada, they would finish there with the layouts and backgrounds. So that's what I did on the problem in Canada. Okay, that's interesting. Yeah, they they did the color.
00:21:38
Speaker
A background painting was done in compositing was done in Canada not but because i my studio was new, I couldn't handle at the time. but I did the storyboards, the layouts, i did the animation.
00:21:52
Speaker
And ah actually I did design, character designs for the feature, um but the animation, I didn't work. I didn't do animation for the feature. I just animated for this this segment. if you If you somehow you get the DVD of the proud family feature, there's a three minute segment that I was done by myself. Really? Okay. Well, I'm gonna have to go look for that now. That was fun. It was fun to do. It was a different style.
00:22:19
Speaker
Yeah, very different style. that's why That's why, to me, when I was looking at the names, I said, wow, that's a little different. That's a little change, but that's it's pretty cool. Yeah, I love changing styles. and throughout Throughout my career, I was able to do so different many different styles. yeah It's a challenge, and I liked it. I like changing styles.
00:22:42
Speaker
I've been um looking through all of your IMDB contributions, and I see and not only um lots of Disney, but lots of still, um I believe some of these were still 2D animation. um Are you seeing, so like I remember Cuba was one, like it was that. Yeah, I mean, there are so many things that were that I see in your credits, that was still 2d. And I it seems like a lot is not anymore. um Would you like to speak on that at all?
00:23:20
Speaker
Yeah, okay, what happened was I was working at Disney. ah Happily animating at Disney, I started on Fantasia 2000. I did the Firebird. I think it was the last sequence. That was my first job at Disney, doing the Firebird. And then in Kingdom in the Sun, that became the Emperor's New Groove and a little bit of Tarzan and then Home of the Range. And what happened then?
00:23:48
Speaker
Yeah, after Home Modern Range, they they they they finished the whole 2D animation department. They ended. So I decided to to leave. And indeed there was no more 2D animation, right? There's no more hand-drawn animation. So I was like, OK, I could train in CG. I could do CG. All my friends, everybody was doing CG. Disney gave him gave everybody, ah even myself, ah ah CG classes, computer classes.
00:24:18
Speaker
And I did it because I wanted to understand. But I didn't like it. I hate it. um I don't hate CG animation. i I watch it when the movie is good. I liked it. But I don't like animating with a mouse, with a computer, a CG know puppet. you know I don't like it. I like to draw. So I decided to continue on the hand-drawn animation side.
00:24:42
Speaker
and drawing. And it was a gamble. It worked for me. and because a dry like draw I I went into design work, doing character designs. And that's how I got involved with Leica, doing Kubo and missing link, because I could draw and as an animator, I understand the character and all the angles. And so I did the like,
00:25:14
Speaker
ah some turnarounds for them. I did the ah expressions for the characters because it helped them. It helped them build the maquettes. Our drawings helped them. It helps the CG too. you know ah everything Everything starts with drawings. you know many people don't Many people don't know that. they start Everything starts with drawings. So that's why I was involved with Laika doing Kubo because ah There's no more hand-drawn animation, so I went into design. But then they started asking me animation tests and hand-drawn animation tests for the animators, the stop-motion animators, to study and try to understand the characters.
00:26:00
Speaker
before they did the stop motion animation. So my hand draw animation help them doing the stop motion animation. And same thing happens to a CG animation, CG projects. Sometimes we do hand draw animation for the CG artists to try to, you know, understand their rigs, their models in CG.
00:26:25
Speaker
So that's that's how I got involved was because i had to I want to continue drawing. I didn't want to animate in CG. So I started doing animation tests and character designs for CG movies and stop motion movies, which it was fun too. the The only problem is that the audience won't see my and my work.
00:26:46
Speaker
You know, like when I did animation for Disney, what you see on the screen is my animation. Okay. So of course there's a cleanup parts of that went over and did the final line, but the acting is mine. So for the Kubo or any other CG movies, the audience won't see my work. My work is only for pre-production.
00:27:10
Speaker
and Okay, so a lot more of like concept and some of the, like you said, some of the design. So that makes yeah makes a lot of sense. um And I know, I've heard you say that you are speaking to students and and and new animators. Are you teaching the concepts in the the drawing, the 2D, mostly when you're speaking with them?
00:27:36
Speaker
Yes, um yeah when I give workshops to the students, I ah show my process, but the drawing process. yeah how i Let's say if I had had to design a character, how i what's my approach to design a character? that's how That's what I talk about, and I show them. Or if I had to animate a scene, a hand-drawn scene, I would show them how I start, you know like my process.
00:28:04
Speaker
on your phone. And what what is the one is what is one or two of your favorite characters that you have ever developed start to finish? Okay, um ah for me, very, I mean, my favorite is in personal group, because because I worked on so many other great projects, but that one is special to me because the director or Mark Dindl, they gave me all these small characters, like four four or five characters. And he told me, Sandro, these are your characters, you can have fun, you can do whatever you want.
00:28:41
Speaker
with this character, these these are yours. i didn't I didn't have to show anybody, just the director. So whatever I did, it was what I wanted to do. And that was a unique ah situation because usually you have a supervised animator or you have a character that's, so you have to, chew there's some rules to the character. And those who were like, okay, these are yours and just have fun. And I kind of created the character also because Even though the designer was Joe Mosier, my friend, came just he created a concept, like a drawing. But then I took that drawing and I developed and did my own version of it. And so that's why me in-person group was a special move because they gave me the theme song guy, the old man.
00:29:32
Speaker
And the official, the guy with the funny hat that's helping Cusco choose the brides. And in the waitress, they gave all these characters to do. Each one of them were very different than each other because the personalities are so different. For example, ah if you remember the waitress, she's very deadpan, she doesn't move much, she's very sarcastic, she gives a smile. you know the um the official that's helping Cusco choosing the prize, he's very nervous. So he's always with his hands trembling and he's like trying to please the Cusco and his law afraid. So he's very very anxious and nervous. ah The team song guy is a performer. is know he's he'singer He's a singer, so he's performing. The old man is an old man trembling and he's like,
00:30:27
Speaker
um trying to get along with his life. But yeah each one of them are so different, so I could change the personalities, you know. So I had a blast. So that was my favorite.
Disney Parks in Brazil?
00:30:40
Speaker
That's awesome. I had one more question about my my daughters would be upset with me if I did not at least um ask about Princess and the Frog, Princeton. That is one of their favorites. So can you tell me a little bit about your work on that particular film?
00:31:03
Speaker
Yeah, um after after a few years out away from Disney, they got everybody, I mean, not everybody, but most of the us back, you know, and to do hand-drawn animation again. So it was a big thing at the time. So i was I was glad to be back with the team and some of my friends. And so they gave me, like John, Ron and John, the directors, they They give them as a lead, those two small characters, the Fener brothers, which was fun to do. They are very small, a small role, no not nothing big. um But for me, it was very fun to develop those two characters, those two brothers, one that's tall and the other one that's shorter. And it was very fun to do. But then I had a lot of blast. I love it doing it the praise when he's ah
00:31:56
Speaker
the butler the butler transformed into the prince the sequence where he is pretending to be the prince he he looks like the prince but he's the butler so i had to animate him the prince the with the physicality of the prince ah the design of the prince, but behaving like the butler. That was amazing because as an and animator, it was ah just great. and it is depressing The prince talking with the butler's voice and behaving like the butler. Even though he looked like the prince, he was pretending to be transformed into the prince. There was like a head of glass doing that. I love it. yeah Just for the challenge of the acting. you know
00:32:43
Speaker
So on that same note, do you so for the princess and the frog, How do you feel about the new um attraction at the parks? did Did anything that you animated get made into something there on on one of the rides? Well, well actually, and I haven't seen it yet. I haven't yeah i haven't haven't been to the parks for more than 10 years. I think it was 10 years ago since I went to last time I went to Disneyland, actually. So I i don't know much. I've seen stills and ah a few videos on YouTube. um So I don't know much.
00:33:17
Speaker
That would be interesting to see if there's something that you animated that shows up on the ride, which would be awesome. Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I wonder if the Fender Brothers are there. I don't think so. They are very small characters. I mean, the Butler transforming into the Prince, maybe. I'm not sure.
00:33:38
Speaker
let's hope so yeah I haven't seen the new one yet, but I'm going to see it next week. so i will oh cool ill I'll definitely keep an eye on that. Let me know. let me know we'll wait definitely well I know the the anime animatronics are getting better. so yes oh yeah maybe Maybe it's moving nice. and I'm sure it's beautiful, but yeah I'm very curious sure to see.
00:34:03
Speaker
So so ah ji you've been to, at which parks have you been to? You've been to Walt Disney World or Disneyland? Yeah, I've been to both them both ah of them. Yeah, but a long time ago. Okay. Do you ever feel that, and that this is is an open question because a lot of people are talking about this all the time. And I just, it's it's it's nothing to do with, but it's just just your opinion. Do you ever think that they're going to move a ah Disney park into Brazil is that's a because I did that's what that thought's been out there. i see i heard i saw discussion Yeah, it's funny because I heard actually I read something about this that many years ago, they had plans to do that here. Yes, it never happened. I hope well, I don't know. I have feelings about that. I don't think they should my opinion. But you know we never know. I don't think it Brazil is the right place for Disney Park.
00:34:52
Speaker
It's interesting, because it's got the land and it's got the people. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but um I don't know. is it My country is very i'm mostly Italian. So um um I have dual citizenship, have Italian in Brazil. And so I live a part of the year in Brazil, part of part of the year in Florence in Italy. Oh, that's great. Yeah. So ah but but I can talk about both because I'm both.
00:35:15
Speaker
My country here in Brazil is very chaotic, you know, the economy is not the government's corrupt, but I'm not going to go into that because I don't think it's a great place for a park at Disney Park. That's interesting. No, it's good to hear because I heard it on one of the discussion points. It was one of the one of the there's like 10 locations where they thought about and one of them was in Brazil. Yeah. Yeah. But that was a long time ago, I think.
00:35:44
Speaker
There's a talk about and Brazil coming into Epcot. Oh, no, that's, that's, that that like that I can see happening, which is, is fine, because they they have the many countries represented, you know, they'll they'll be okay, you know, because they're going to be doing something ah Brazilian related there yeah in Epcot, but having a whole park here, I don't, I don't, yeah I would never do it.
00:36:13
Speaker
I have a question about your drawing style, I guess. So what I learned, and I guess some of our listeners learned that maybe we didn't know this, is that when a storyboard is done, ah there may be five or six people drawing one character.
00:36:31
Speaker
animating one character yeah and it they may pick one artist that does the angry character and they might pick another artist that maybe caters more to the funny character. um do you Do you have any experience with that or what are you drawn to more? ah Do you feel like no pun intended or actually pun intended? Would you for say you kind of lean more towards the funny character?
00:36:59
Speaker
Yeah, I love comedy. I love the funny characters. um Of course, as an animator to survive in this business, you tend to do whatever assignment you you get, right? yeah Let's say if you have to do something something that's more realistic, you should be able to do it more subtle. Let's say something more like maybe ah the Prince of Egypt, that kind of animation, more realistic. You should be able to do that and also the opposite, very cartoony, broad one. At this end, they used to have teams of animators, like a team for one character, team for another, team for you know the main characters. And they, indeed, supervised animators would ah choose the the animators. And they would choose like, oh, that guy, I know he can draw very well. Let's say the character is very realistic, like a princess, OK?
00:37:55
Speaker
And the supervising animator is going to choose people that he thinks can draw that but really well and control the animation more. ah The other guy who may may be doing, let's say, Lumiere, Nick Raniere, Lumiere. Lumiere is more cartoon-y broad. He's going to get people who can do that kind of kind of animation. So that's how he that's how it works. They cast be um just like an actor. you know um But in my case, I love the comedy. If I could choose, I would
Current Work & Digital Transition
00:38:28
Speaker
choose comedy. i more more broad and More broad, more fun, entertaining characters. That's what I like. I'm not crazy about animation that doesn't is very subtle, that doesn't move too much. It's it's more realistic. I'm not crazy. I can't do it um because you know way I can't draw, I can't do that. I can't control. But it's not as fun as being broad.
00:38:53
Speaker
invent movements, invent, you know, having more squash and stretch. him the the In comedy, you can do that more. So I'm more inclined to comedy. What are you working on currently? um Right now I'm working on a video game, which is my first, first video game. Yeah, it's hand-drawn.
00:39:14
Speaker
yeah So I'm doing design, doing doing the designs for the characters. I'm not animating at the moment, maybe later, but at the moment, I'm just doing designs, model sheets, expressions, and the final design would the with the style that they're looking for. It's the style of the, I would say, like going back to the 50s or 60s, more like Sleeping Beauty or I would say, but yeah, I would say is the beauty, that kind of graphic style. That's neat. I like that. Going back to the classics. Yes, yeah. The did those those the directors, the creators, they love that era of animation, that style they had, like UPA or Chuck Jones at that at that time.
00:40:02
Speaker
So they are very open to to go back to have something that looked like that, which is is great. I've seen some backgrounds that did ah they look like something from Disney. It looks like something from Ivan Laurel that did the Sleeping Beauty. It's just as good as that. So it's very interesting.
00:40:24
Speaker
Yeah. I remember the backgrounds almost look like just watercolors or paintings, you know, yeah trees in the forest. And it it just, it makes you relax and just ah take away the stress, even if it's a tense scene, when you're looking at the way the animation was done, it's different than graphic, computer graphic. It's so different.
00:40:44
Speaker
Actually, I agree with you, and I miss that kind of animation, that kind of color. It's funny, I was watching the other day, after many years, I was watching Mickey Short. um What's the name of the short? I don't remember the name now, but it was like the impact, again,
00:41:06
Speaker
with the color that I saw on on the screen it was like, it's so beautiful. How come we don't see this anymore? The background is so beautiful and making the beanstalk.
00:41:18
Speaker
Oh, yeah, that's really giant. Oh, it's the color, the art direction that move in that short is unbelievable. Actually, it's a feature. I think it's longer than the short. But it's just breathtaking. It's just amazing the color. It was done in the 50s, maybe 40s. I think Yeah, but the impact that ah yeah I had last week when I was watching was insane because the color is so vivid and so beautiful and we don't see that anymore. and it's ah People say it's because it looks it looks old fashioned, but i i I don't know. I don't i don't i don't agree.
00:41:59
Speaker
I think it's kind of like if we buy a quilt that's already made in the store and it's so perfect and you just get it and maybe you don't you know think anything of it, but if you receive like a handmade quilt from your grandmother that's as imperfections, but it's done in such an artistic way, you just appreciate it so much more. I don't know if that's a good analogy, but. Yeah, I think it's a good one. Yeah, it's something like that.
00:42:27
Speaker
Because there's the human element. The human element makes it better, in my opinion. And that's why I like a lot of those that do because it there it's, I don't know, there's just more more involved because there's more creation. It's not just slapping together an AI program that comes that comes up with a character, which right sometimes I do that. you know We do i do a lot with AI right now. And I'm i'm like, okay, we're losing something there. you know It is cool. The technology is amazing. yeah But that human element is going away. I get worried about that.
00:42:56
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Now, me mitu no um Brian, I agree with you because I think there's a lot of um imagination lost using AI because I think most of it comes down to an individual's thought compared to a computer's plan or a computer's thought But Sandra, let me ask you about, um you know, one of the movies that you worked on, ah you worked on Fantasia 2000, but before that, you also worked on The Iron Giant. And some of the more recent movies that you worked on, you know, Kung Fu Pien Da Four and Angry Birds and and Mary Poppins Returns. So going into that, um
00:43:50
Speaker
trying to separate you know first of all Disney's um I guess Disney's toolbox compared to you know maybe Dreamworks or maybe um you know Warner Brothers or something like that so going into it do you have to know all that before going in what you what you're going to expect or do you say okay well at least it's not Disney I can I have a little more creative freedom on that.
00:44:23
Speaker
Well, it depends on the project, of course. Some projects, you can have more you can have more freedom than others, right? But when ah when I worked on these other projects, ah usually as is said as an um as as a designer, as a character designer, and sometimes many times they have the designs already set. and They just asked me to develop further.
00:44:48
Speaker
so Yeah, sometimes you have more freedom. But usually, ah they have something like set like, okay, this is the design, you just just make it just make it work. So ah as an animator, I just, with my knowledge of animation, I tried to make their designs animatable, or they have to work for animation. That's, that's what I do. No.
00:45:15
Speaker
So, Sandro, here's my other question. um You won an award for Mary Poppins Returns. How how was that how did that feel, and how did you um and did you find out about that that you won? Oh, that was great. That was great, because of ah it's the annual award, and the annual award is the is is given to you by your peers, like people in the industry. They are the one yeah they are they are the ones who vote for the artists.
00:45:40
Speaker
So why I was here in Brazil, actually. I i knew my i knew was I was nominated um before, but and of course I didn't know if I was going to win. And then I was actually sleeping. And when I woke up in the morning, I saw the news that I won.
00:45:57
Speaker
I was very happy. I couldn't make it at the ceremony. was I couldn't travel there. But my friend, because it was was me, Chris Alvey and James Baxter, with three of us were nominated together. So my friend Chris Alvey went there and received for everybody. and That's great. though That's great. So you have but you so you is that you keep it on the wall? Or what do you where do you keep? yeah Yeah, it's actually is in my my place in Italy. I left. Oh, okay. I left it there. Yeah, I have a heavily displayed. Yeah. but So the next one, next one is the is the Oscar. I need to get the Oscar. You got the option. Yes. Yes. There you go. Need it. Congratulations. Oh, thank you. Thank you.
00:46:41
Speaker
So enchanted and disenchanted were both live action and um um and animation. Is it any different for you when you're doing the animation and it's transferring from the live movie, I don't know, it just seems like it'd be something a little different, because you have to follow it and really capture what was portrayed by a live character.
00:47:09
Speaker
ah you in your line So youre you're, you're, you're me, you mean, like, refer ah using the live action as reference? Yeah, like, you know how it jumps back from the scenes from Enchanted, where they're so when you're, you know, when you're just doing animation, you don't really have to follow up on a reference point, I wouldn't guess, as, because there's not a live character. So are you having to, like, look at the, I guess the footage or the rehearsals or anything like that with the characters?
00:47:39
Speaker
no No, not really. no um oh well Actually, we we didn't have to watch the live action for for for reference, for for the animation section of it. We didn't have to do it. We could invent ourselves. But I know there actually in that case, it was like that. We could invent the the input the acting ourselves. okay But ah there's some cases where, like for example, Anastasia that I worked on, for Dan Bluth, we had to downshot the whole movie in live action, the whole movie entirely. We have actors and very actually very good actors that he found. And we as as animators, we had to follow pretty much the way he shot.
00:48:25
Speaker
And even though we had different ideas for the acting, as an animator, you have your, you're the actor, right? The animator is the actor, we just use the pencil or, you know, if it or the mouse for CG, but we're the actors.
00:48:42
Speaker
so So we have ideas. We have ideas for the acting. But with Dan Bluth, on Anastasia especially, he made it a point of everybody had to follow. And we couldn't move away too much from why he what he shot. We tried to do a little bit, but not much. So in that case, what we had to stick to the reference. But for intended norm, we could invent the animation, the acting ourselves, do which was more fun.
00:49:12
Speaker
Yeah. I love that movie. I love both. I liked it too. Yeah. I liked the first one. I love it. Yeah. Very good. Very well done. And I animated like the the first time you see the Prince and I made him the close up and then he's, he's riding the the big auger and then the monster it falls. And I did all that. I wow ah did the, the end at the end, the the wedding when he, when the, the other character forgot her name now with the black hair.
00:49:41
Speaker
And she marries the brain scene at the end. and Oh yeah, the evil battle. Yeah, and then and then the phone rings and I did the whole so the whole scene there.
Animation Techniques & Future
00:49:51
Speaker
Oh wow, that is so neat. I can't imagine. That was fun because I remember it was something smaller. Yeah. I animated and the the director saw my animation. According to James, James Baxter was the director, the animation director. And he told me later,
00:50:07
Speaker
I saw, I did the first test, which was something smaller and the director liked it so much that the he made it bigger with a little bit of dialogue and yeah he changed the ah did the scene because he liked my animation. that that um um It felt good to me. Oh yeah, that's impressive.
00:50:26
Speaker
So how, I mean, just from a lay person, how long does it take to maybe draw a scene? Like you were saying, the prince writing up, are we talking days, hours?
00:50:38
Speaker
Yeah, the price, it didn't took too long. It was just a close up, the first one. And then when you see the next scene where he's on the top of the ogre and he falls down, it took ah took a little longer. Maybe, I would say, three weeks to do that.
00:50:57
Speaker
I know the wedding at the end, it took me longer. It took me a month, like wow at least one month to do, because if you remember, there's a her, there's the prince, there's the priest that's marrying them. There's some birds that come in flying and then, and they lifted the veil and there's someone, it's very intricate. I had to plan the whole thing. like Birds come in when the phone rings and when the priest reacts,
00:51:25
Speaker
when the priest reacts to them, it's like each one had to be animated separately. And according to the first one, the other had to react. So it took ah it took like a month to do. it wow And actually more, because I had 20, the way we do, we do like a rough pass, very rough, no detail, just like the shapes.
00:51:49
Speaker
for the the day supervising the director to approve the the performance in the acting. And then when he likes it, we'll go back and we'll have to draw everything again with the Everything, the right, like the character on model with the eyes in the right place and everything locked and and did the dress correctly drawn. So I think it took like more than a month because I think it took like a month and a half to do that because we have to do a rough pass and then show the director get it notes and then go back after it's approved, go back and redraw the whole thing completely.
00:52:29
Speaker
Like my drawings, when I finish my drawings, they are ready for the cleanup artist just to trace it. I don't want them to guess or to put the line. My drawings are precise. So that takes a long time to do. Is the rough path or pass, I can't hear what you're saying, if it's rough. Rough rough rough pass, like the first pass. So the rough pass, is that something I'm imagining that you're doing on like sketch paper with charcoal pencil?
00:52:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's very, scribble it's a scribble, scribble test, no detail. It's just like she right for the the like maybe where the eyes are, the eye line with the dots for the eyes and just for the performance. So we don't do a lot of the details at that stage because If there's change, it's easy to do. If you draw everything perfectly and then the director looks and asks for change, that's a big problem because you spent weeks doing it and then it's not right. yeah So they like to see a rough past with no details. So we don't put the dress. you just If there's a cape, we don't do the cape. It's just the main performance. Very scribbled, very rough.
00:53:45
Speaker
And that's how we show the director first, they should be able to understand that those drawings are going to be turned into something beautiful later. Yeah. So they have to understand that, you know, you save your rough passes, because I would think those would be historic. I mean, how ne i have I have a feel. Yeah, I have a few. I bet Barry would like some of those, huh, Barry?
00:54:06
Speaker
absolutely i think you know it it's funny that you say that because every time you were talking that i was trying to go back to when they were doing mary poppins and how you know they did not have the technology that they had today but You can see all the drawings between, you know, the live action to the the cartoons. yeah You know, yeah, it wasn't as much as, you know, enchanted or some of the other ones. But I think you would take a little more pride knowing that, hey, I've ive actually sketched these out. I didn't have to use a computer on it, things like that.
00:54:48
Speaker
So when when you did like Mary Poppins Returns, how much did you have in the drawing and and on that movie?
00:55:00
Speaker
Oh, okay. That was, first of all, that was done on paper, which is good because today we do all digitally. Like, ah for example, Klaus, we animated digitally for that movie, but for the Mary Poppins returns we did on paper. And again, it was the same thing. We had live action. We had 20 made, we had the live action stats, like copies of the,
00:55:25
Speaker
live action on paper printed like all the frames printed for us. You could draw on top of it. we draw we drew the ah our animation on top of the live action. So we knew we knew where the actors were. So we they could relate to the live action. um And again, the approach is the same. I did the first pass, first first ra ah rough test for the director to to approve. And then I went back and we drew everything properly on model with the right, you know, locking everything, everything controlling a volume. And it's the same approach. But the only thing we had live action printed every frame before us to work on top of it.
00:56:14
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's amazing. I mean, compared to, like I said before, compared to some of the older animated movies, especially Disney, to where it is now, um how ah how how do you feel um the whole animation business, I mean, where where do you see it going, you know, maybe in 15, 20 years?
00:56:39
Speaker
but It's what hard to say, but i mean just I can see more and more CG, of course, but I'm also concerned about AI a lot. Yeah, and so am I. departments from the animation, even the CG animation pipeline.
00:56:59
Speaker
Well, the only problem is right now that they all have six fingers. So that'll that'll never work until they get that fixed. It's not there yet. yeah So i'm I'm concerned about that. So in terms of hand-drawn, it's very difficult to say. I'm hoping we can still do it. of Not me, but people can still do it, at the the new generation. but It's going to be all digital, of course, not no paper anymore, which is happening right now. I'm working digitally mostly, you know but it's still still drawing. It's still a draw. It's a syntax. It's digital, but it's still the same process, the same approach that drawing rough and then going back on a different level and redraw. It's the same process. It's just not paper.
00:57:45
Speaker
So but in the future, i don't I hope they still make some kind of a hand-drawn animation or something hybrid. But it's hard to say. Yeah, I think i think for for Disney's sake, i'm I think think any state where, I mean, as far as it's gone right now, it just seems like it it doesn't feel animated anymore. You know, it doesn't feel, you know, and and maybe it's my generation that feels it the most or maybe because, you know, like you said, we had the 70s, we had the 80s cartoons and they were kind,
00:58:24
Speaker
you know especially me going back and watching Scooby Doo and seeing how you know how bizarre it is now watching it and me growing up watching it and thinking it was the coolest thing ever. And I think there's there's they're just there's a charm to it. There's a charm to knowing that, hey, you know we don't need to make the Flintstones into something that it shouldn't be. yeah you know there Um, and, and, and I hope Disney gets it and I hope other, uh, other companies dreamworks, things like that realize that, you know, if you want to have six, six, seven, eight, nine different, um, you know, despicable me movies, that's great. Unfortunately, it looks like that this, this younger generation is coming up now. They're not going to care about.
00:59:18
Speaker
what was in the past, unless the parents are gonna be like, hey, you know, they're not gonna sit and watch it because it's not cool. And- Yeah, it's true, it's true. And also, Barry, I don't know if you agree, Disney's not helping. ah Like, the reason I got Disney Plus was like, oh, I'm sure they're gonna put all those classes there. All the, this I mean, the wonderful world of color, you know, there's nothing there, just like,
00:59:45
Speaker
It's all the new stuff. And yeah, and there's not as many that some of those classics there are some there. I feel not all like, you know, the Apple dumpling dumpling gangs there, which is one of the best ever or that dumb cat they're there they are. But there's other ones that are not there. You're right. You're right.
00:59:59
Speaker
Yeah. And also I was, I was hoping for, you know, there's so many, you know, TV, um, product that they did in the past with the wall himself, you know, presenting and Jiminy Crickey. There's, there's some, there's so much stuff that they should be there. And like, maybe, uh, like a channel, like a classic channel or something, just call something, but put everything there. So they're not helping, you know, it's mostly new stuff.
01:00:29
Speaker
Yeah. There's a, there's a, there's a perfect series that they could put on there and everyone will be happy. It's called the house of mouse. If you find it, yeah if someone can get it and put it on Disney plus that is the animated animated. It's not new. Yeah. It's perfect. Yeah.
01:00:48
Speaker
So we're going to go ahead and we're going to wrap up this episode.
Conclusion & Social Media
01:00:53
Speaker
So Sandro, before we wrap it up, why don't you go ahead and promote anything you would like to promote. And so listeners can follow you.
01:01:03
Speaker
Well, ah I'm on Instagram, um mostly in Facebook. I don't have a site, a website, but yeah, they can find him on on Instagram. And yeah usually I answer people there when they ask him something. And I have a few books that animation, I have um a book that's called My Approach to Animation Design. That'll be, it's gonna be reprinted, and I'm going to announce soon on my Instagram and when it's going to be available for purchase. Yeah, so it's a new book, my approach, how I do animation and design. And you you know people can find them on Instagram. I usually post my pencil tests there or projects or drawings.
01:01:49
Speaker
So Sandra, I'm going to send you out my my my daughter. I'm going to send you your information to my daughter because she's a designer and she's a big fan. So yeah, we'll reach definitely reach out. You'll still'll see if you hear from us. Okay, fantastic. What is your Instagram, Sandra?
01:02:06
Speaker
It's my name, Sandro Clouseau. Okay. Thank you. Sure. Used to be Sandro Clouseau, but now it's Sandro Clouseau. Hey, we really appreciate you coming out. We were looking forward to this. Thank you so much for your time. We know you're busy and it's been hard, but this was a great one. All of us, we're all fanboys. We are all really happy to get to talk to you.
01:02:31
Speaker
No, I'm glad it happened. And thanks for having me. It's been great. I love it. I love talking to you guys. I can see the love for Disney, which is great. I love it. This is my favorite. in still I mean, I love the classic Disney you know a lot.
01:02:47
Speaker
I personally want to thank you for Home on the Range and Emperor's New Group. I know you had a little part in it. Rudy's one of my favorites and um from Emperor's New Group, the old man. I love him. um So I just want to say i'm I'm thankful that we were, like I said earlier, I'm glad that we were able to have you on because, you know like I said, I've been following you for a while and I thought,
01:03:13
Speaker
it's It's great to have a little conversation about how how animation was you know but and and how, unfortunately, it's not that way anymore. And it's it's it's great to hear from your perspective on how ah you dedicated your your life and your talent to making great, great projects. But thank you. Thank you so much. Appreciate that. Thank you.
01:03:44
Speaker
Thank you for joining us for another enchanting episode of Sharing the Magic. We are the Thinking Fans podcast, an entertainment show where education and entertainment collide each week. We bring you whimsical interviews with Disney guests who share their magical experiences and reveal how they are woven into the Disney fabric. Don't forget to hit that follow button to stay updated on our latest episodes.
01:04:07
Speaker
Spread the word and let your friends know they can tune in wherever they enjoy their favorite podcasts. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok and ex formerly Twitter at at sharing the magic pod. Until next time, keep sharing the magic.