Transcript
Speaker: Hi everyone, a quick heads up ahead of the episode. Unfortunately, it's been brought to my attention that there is a scammer impersonating me. They've been emailing people from a faked account, posing as me, and offering paid packages to come on the podcast. To be clear, there is no payment involved for guests. I do not charge guests to come on the podcast, and obviously that means there are no packages for guests and the like.
Speaker: If you're unsure that you are in communication with me or the scammer, you can check by messaging me on my verified Instagram account at rightandwrongpodcast or through my website, contact page, rightandwrong.co.uk forward slash contact. That's all from me. Stay vigilant and enjoy the episode. Ooh, a spicy question. I love it. Because the writing is sort of everything, right? You can fix plot holes, but if the writing there. So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of, it's kind of a gamble.
Speaker: Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. On today's episode, I am joined by literary agent Mia Dakin. Hello. Hello. It's lovely to be here. Thank you for having me.
Speaker: So nice but send us to have you on. um Let's jump right in. And with agents, I'm always curious to hear about how you kind of got into being a literary agent. So um from what I found online, you did a master's in publishing at UCL.
Speaker: That's right. And then, and then did you just go straight into Green and Heaton or were there some steps along the way? Yeah, I did. So, I mean, I did the publishing master's partly because I graduated in 2020. So had sort of decided in that year that publishing was kind of what I want to go for. And then it was COVID. So every sort of internship was kind of shut down.
Speaker: it was all, I mean, it's a very competitive industry anyway, but it was all kind of avenues closed for a bit. So I had a little look and UCL master's seemed to have great reviews and they did have part of it where you sort of speak to an industry professional, which is obviously very helpful. So that was part of the reason why i chose to do that. And it was really great because I really only knew, I guess, the editorial side of things. And when I started the master's, um The course leader essentially said, you know, 80% you are going to come into this wanting to be an editor. And yeah i maybe 20% are going to come out and actually still want to do that because there's so many roles in publishing that you just don't even know about. And I kind of heard about literary agencies through the masters and through my tutor.
Speaker: who kind of said, if you like the editorial side, the creative side, but also like working with people and more admin-based roles too, then being a literary agent is a great thing to do because you kind of get to a little bit of everything, and which was great advice because it's absolutely my dream job.
Speaker: So that's great. um And then from that, I met Laura Williams, who is an agent at Greenheaton, who And then ended up doing a month internship at Greenheaton, where originally it had been just for the month.
Speaker: And then I sort of go off and see, and I was applying to lots of different things. And as anyone who has applied for any jobs in publishing would know, is just insanely competitive and getting more and more so.
Speaker: then there was a role that ended up opening up at Greenheaton. So they called me back and sort of said, you'd be interested in being assistant, then we would love to have you. of course, I was... completely over the moon and couldn't say yes fast enough. So then I started in 2023 as a full-time agency assistant.
Speaker: Okay. Right. I mean, it was very fortunate the timing of that role opening up obviously, because you were intern and then assistant. And my understanding is with agencies, um most people start out as an assistant or an intern. And then at a certain point you start building your list and and you're you're still assisting, but over time you're assisting less and you're agenting more.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. And that's basically what happened with me. So I would say I was sort of full-time assisting me for about two and a half years until up to maybe last year, April, May time. And then it's kind of I guess it's sort of a um difficult balance because it's essentially, you know, if you can find something and if you're able to sell it, then of course that is encouraged and what sort of you want to be doing. So it's quite a nice way to go into it because you still have all the assisting things.
Speaker: side of things and that part of the job which is quite nice to kind of ground yourself in because when you do eventually sign authors and go out it's very daunting and it is um you know very exposing because you're sort of putting yourself out there on the line so it's nice to sort of continue having that duality of the role and i think i certainly found it really helpful my first time going out um But yeah, I mean, I think the assisting, I know it's different in all different agencies, but at Green and Heaton, really was assisting and I continue to assist everybody in sort of all aspects of things. So I do some author care, I do some sort of actual admin web website stuff, social media things. um I mean, it really differs from day to day.
Speaker: At the moment, I'm doing a lot of work on the anthropic settlement, which is not something that I previously would have known much about, but you kind of just throw yourself into it and learn on the job, which is very helpful for eventually agenting full time because you've got sort of all this experience and all these very niche situations that don't always come up, but when they do, need to know how to do them. Yeah.
Speaker: There's always a new adventure with yeah being a literary agent. You never really know what each day is going to entail. Yes, exactly. So you started at the agency in 2003. When, so how long was it before you signed your first author?
Speaker: So I signed my first author, believe it was April 2025. Okay. okay so that was, and then that was a sort of very much work in process, as sorry, work in progress manuscript that then was actually ready to send out this year in March. So I guess sort of the actual, from first signing first author to sort of doing, sending something out for the first time and doing a first deal,
Speaker: can be, you know, sometimes a year in the making. um But then after I signed my first author, that then meant that I could sort of be on our website as a literary agent.
Speaker: I was more discoverable. i then sort of was open to submissions and doing more sort of author, agent, event type things. Which meant that I actually ended up signing other authors and sort of doing my first deal in, I believe it was November of last year. so before that first author that I signed.
Speaker: Yeah. Okay. so yeah So, yeah. So my question is obviously once you've signed your first author, then you go on the website as a literary agent, open to submissions. How did you, so how did you find that first author then if sort of to the, to the outside world, you're not available as like someone to represent?
Speaker: um I found her through Instagram actually. okay So I was kind of just trawling through because I mean, again, it's sort of making that jump from assisting to starting to look for your own authors is difficult because it's kind of a what comes first, because you need to be available and be sort of discoverable and have people know that you are looking. um And I was sort of just going through and found this author, my author, Amy Hughes, and she had basically created a mood board for the vibe of her book.
Speaker: if that makes sense. um And I kind of saw it and had been looking and thinking about the kind of thing I'd want to represent. And then just reached out to her and said, you know, if you do have any pages available, I'd love to read them. and Then read them and really felt, because I've done a lot of reading and throughout assisting for the other agents. So I've had sort of a lot of experience doing that and kind of thinking, editorially and thinking where i would position people um when sending out on submission. So I kind of already had exercised that muscle. And then when I found her work and read her pages, I thought, you know, I think actually have a conversation with her and see what we can do, um which we then did do. And then, you know, it's been a great relationship so far.
Speaker: Yeah. When you're at that point, you know, you're still an assistant at the agency. Do you have to sort of run that up the flagpole and go to, you know, the other people in the agency and say, I'd like to sign my, my first author? Yeah, that's exactly it. So I basically went to, um, the director of the company and said, you know, I found this author. I think this is how I would position it. I think it's got potential would that be okay? And we had had discussions the year before about sort of that eventually being the goal. And I suppose when people come and start to work in agencies, there are some people that perhaps don't plan to be an agent and they don't have that goal and they want to sort of stay in the admin side of things. But I'd always made it super clear that that was definitely what I was aiming for. So yeah um I think they were expecting it anyway. And then, yeah, I just basically went and said, please. And they said, yeah, I mean, and I'm very lucky because it's a really collaborative agency and we really work together and help each other. So i think that um everybody was just sort of said, have a go and see.
Speaker: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Very lucky for me. Yeah, that sounds it mean sounds great. I think generally all the the literary agents I've spoken to when talking about kind of how they got into it, it it's the agencies in general are just very encouraging. The whole kind of setup, which is has this sort of apprenticeship style, um, uh, sort of conveyor belt. It, it, it, it really does, you know, when you're signing in, when you're joining as an assistant, it sort of goes unsaid that it's like, we are going to try and encourage you to eventually become a literary agent. That's kind of just how it works, which is, which is great.
Speaker: So that was your first author. How many authors do you have on your list now? I think I now have, because did inherit some authors from other agents sort of who've moved on as well. So I think I have maybe about, but think about 20. Okay.
Speaker: okay um There's quite, yeah, there's quite a few. and I mean, in various stages. So actual sort of projects that I've sold, think. I've sold um five authors' projects since becoming an agent.
Speaker: And then i sort of handle other authors that I've inherited that are published and sort of currently out there. And then I have um only only one of the deals that I've done so far have actually been announced. So there will be four to come, which you can include that. um okay and But they're just not actually, i won't sort of say who they are yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So yeah, so I've got, and I'm always looking for new authors as well. Obviously, it's a balancing act of sort of having the time with assisting and taking on new people. Yeah. um
Speaker: So far, that's where I'm at. You've still got a lot of room on your list. You're still very much kind of growing at this point, building at this point. and You mentioned inheriting authors. Is that, would those be authors that you had already worked with in a sort of assisting capacity? Like there were authors were already known to you and you were known to them, or was it just that you had space and the other agent or or whoever agent was with them before had kind of moved on to something else?
Speaker: Yeah, it's kind of I guess it's a little bit of both. So whenever, I guess, an agent has authors and they don't take them with them, then you kind of... within an agency decide who would be best to sort of offer the representation to keep them with the agency, which sometimes, you know, authors might decide they want a complete fresh start. And sometimes they want to stay. And sort of all the authors that I inherited were authors who work whose work I really liked or who I already had sort of had quite a lot of contact with when assisting anyway. So it sort of felt like quite natural matches. Yeah. For me. And i so far, I think for the authors, this is all good Yeah. Wow.
Speaker: Okay, well, let's talk about the list as a whole then. um What are the sort of age ranges and and and genres that you represent as a literary agent?
Speaker: So I mostly work in the adult fiction space. um I do represent a couple of nonfiction, sort of one memoir and one in sort of pop culture space, but fiction is mostly where I'm kind of sat. And it' I would say I'm sort of so looking for...
Speaker: I do romance. I've done a bit of romanticity and a bit of fantasy. i'm i'm kind of moving more into the crime thriller space as well. So I'd say pretty genre fiction.
Speaker: um but I mean, I read very widely and assisting everybody has been quite helpful for keeping my tastes pretty broad. So it's it more is about the author and the work. And if I feel like i know who I can send it to and know how I could sort of package it up.
Speaker: type of thing instead of necessarily sticking with just one or two genres or sort of areas okay but no you don't do children's books No, I mostly don't do children's. I am actually representing an author who's writing YA at the moment um in sort of the fantasy YA space, which again is a little bit of a weird part of, I guess, publishing because a lot of fantasy at the moment kind of does sit between YA, new adult and adult. So we're kind of going between...
Speaker: all it and I wouldn't necessarily not send anything I represent anything in children's or sort of more middle grade but most of my experience has been working with adult fiction so I think any author that would come to me even if they had something that I thought was really stand out I'd maybe be slightly hesitant to take on if it was children's or middle grade just because I don't have as much experience and I wouldn't know if that would give the author um the best shot if that makes sense Yeah. Okay. So you have some sort of exceptions to what you represent, but I mean, there's a lot of agents who have, who will say, you know, something along the lines of, yeah I only represent adult fiction. I do happen to have, you know, this, which isn't in why i represent this, but it's because an author I was already representing decided to write that kind of thing, but they're not necessarily, you're not looking for it in submissions. Yeah, exactly, exactly that. And um I mean, with all of my authors, everyone I represent, and whenever I have conversations with new authors, you know, it's very much about the whole um career for them and our sort of working relationships. so usually I would guess I would know upfront if an author was thinking about going into children's or YA or nonfiction or something like that. And for the most part, I would definitely always consider and say, you know, that I would have a go and see. But I know that a lot of other agents do this too. If it was something that I just felt they would have a better shot with someone else, then I would just say, you know, for that particular project, maybe sort of look for other representation for that. So let's say if it was an author written fiction and then they had come with some nonfiction, um let's say, don't popular science, because that's quite far from what I usually do, then I would suggest maybe having a look for just that part of their work for representation in another space, which I think does happen a fair bit when authors write in both fiction and nonfiction.
Speaker: Yeah. And, and sometimes in, in age groups, uh, one of my friends has, uh, an agent, an agent for the children's stuff and then an agent for the adult stuff. Um, is that an important conversation? Is that like the, the kind of the conversation that you have after you've read a submission, you've, you've, you've read the full manuscript and you you're thinking about offering representation. Is that the kind of, when you, you arrange the call, is that where you're discussing? Like the, where that the author sees their career going, what else they want to do?
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. i would say that usually the way that I would speak to new authors would always be about what they actually sent to me. But for sure, I'd want to talk about sort of the career long because obviously I'm at the beginning of my career. And I also like to work with authors knowing because the market is very tricky, especially at the moment, that, you know, if for some reason their first novel that we send out doesn't get any bites and that nobody... sort of goes for it, that we can then move on to something else and then perhaps revisit that in the future or sort of rework it and come back to it afterwards. So it's definitely a big part of the conversation.
Speaker: Okay. And it is as of recording, it is September, 2026. And like you mentioned, you are open to submissions and actively building your list. Are there any, you know, we've talked about it broadly, but are there any like specific things, maybe a specific genre, a character or a setting that you are really hoping to see pop up in your submissions?
Speaker: I mean, at the moment, what i really would love to see a little bit more of is sort of multi-generational, multi-narrative, sort of big saga type stories. I think I really love, um of I mean, one of my favorite books is The Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan.
Speaker: And I feel like I'm not seeing a lot of that at the moment. And those are the books that just really... ah kind of all-encompassing for me. So I would love to see some more in that space. I also am big fan of retellings. I think that there is some really sort of fun, fresh ways that you can do that. And especially the type of retellings where you almost don't realise...
Speaker: that they are a retelling of sort of a older popular story um i mean on my manuscript wish list an example i use of that is the film 10 things i hate about you which is the taming of the shrew but sort of modernized but in the way that someone could watch that someone could you know if it was um a book someone could read that and not even realize that that was what the inspiration was for because i think that we can use sort of those older stories and modernize them in really fun and new ways and sort of you know they are stories that we can i guess sort of fall back on and know that
Speaker: are popular and work well and everything like that. So yeah, definitely that kind of thing. um As I said, I'm looking a little bit more in the crime and thriller. I used to read a lot of Agatha Christie when I was younger. So I would really love to see a little bit more in the kind of locked room murder mystery type of space.
Speaker: But sort of those real twists and turns where you just can't guess them because I usually am pretty good at guessing when there's going to be sort of plot twists. So anything that really takes me by surprise.
Speaker: Okay. Yeah. i but we're We're about to get, what's the one that the one that I always think is funny is ah Clueless is Emma. a um And we're about to get a lot of Jane Austen reboots yeah on Netflix and stuff. So that could be a fun, you know, there's there's opportunities for retellings in there. Do you think there's any retellings which of certain things that are maybe too saturated so like maybe Arthurian legend or Greek mythology. I was going to say I think Greek mythology for sure is sort of i mean it's difficult because I think that perhaps that is pretty saturated market and to be honest I think Austen retellings are a little bit of a saturated market but It's why I think that sort of having it be maybe a step away from that. So it sort of is still in the space and is inspired by those stories, but is far away enough that if you maybe weren't super familiar with the stories, like let's say if you use Persuasion by Jane Austen, which isn't sort of one of her as well-known stories, um using something like that I think would be really interesting because...
Speaker: I know it's quite hard with retellings of Austen and yet with the Greek mythology because there is just so much of it out there. um i mean, I would love to see some more mythology from other cultures that we don't hear as much about. um i think that that's been quite a common wish for quite a few agents, but I haven't seen it sort of come through super strongly yet. So i definitely think that would be interesting to see.
Speaker: but yeah, I think, that I mean, Greek mythology for sure. We've had a lot of it. Yeah, we could try something else. Yeah. yeah Although, you know, now the Odyssey's come out, I feel like we're going to have a whole sort of rush back to it again. So we'll have to wait and see.
Speaker: Yeah, I have no doubt. i was actually talking to someone the other day about this, about about retellings, because... Um, is there like this, there's a sort of unspoken rule where it's like, it needs to be a certain aid, like it needs to be old enough to do the retelling. And like, now we're in like 2026. It's like, if a story came out in like the nineties, do we, is that, is that old enough now that you could do a retelling of it?
Speaker: I mean, I imagine, it i guess it just to all depends on how you do it and how recognizable the story is. I think that's sometimes the fun part of those retellings is when you're reading them and then suddenly you start to recognize sort of, you know, where the plot might be going or there are just things that you're almost like a deja vu type. feeling um but i'm sure i mean i think that there's been and it's a shame i can't think of a single one right now but there's been a lot of retellings where i have read them and maybe not realized or sort of slowly come to understand or if someone has said you know it's a retelling of this and i think how are they possibly going to do that and then it's done really well so i think that when it's done well it's yeah i think if it was from the 90s that would be absolutely fine
Speaker: Yeah. And I guess sometimes it it doesn't matter if you don't know that it's a retelling or it's so far from the original that it's more of an inspiration and you kind of, someone told me that, have you watched Ted Lasso?
Speaker: I haven't watched it, but I do know. all that it's yeah was That it's the Wizard of Oz. There are three characters in it. No, I have not heard that. That's so interesting. I have a friend that loves Ted Lasso. I'll have to let her So yeah, that there's these three, like the story is not the Wizard of Oz, obviously. Yes. But there's these three characters who are supposed to be the Tin Man, the Scarecrow and the Lion and their story arcs are entirely inspired by the Wizard of Oz. And there's lots of Wizard of Oz references throughout the whole series. And I thought that's fun. And it's, it's not a retelling, but it's like heavily inspired by, but it's so far removed from it that unless someone tells you, or unless you're very like good at looking at Easter eggs, uh, you don't really realize that. So yeah, I guess it does work that way. Um, yeah, that sounds great.
Speaker: Just before we get to the cabin, ah just have one more question. do you, and this is one I always like to ask literary agents, um do you think that you would ever write a book of your own one day?
Speaker: Oh, um that's a great question. I don't think so. i mean, when I was younger, I just completely loved reading and sort of, you know, would inhale anything, which I'm sure is you a kind of requisite for coming into the industry. um But no, I mean, and definitely not since I was a lot younger. I think when I was sort of in secondary school, it was certainly something that I was interested in. But to be honest, I think I'd find it quite hard and I'm always very impressed by anyone who works in publishing who then sort of goes on to write because I just read so much and I'm constantly reading, you know, new stories and new writing and new work that I think I'd find it quite hard to sort of fully shut that side off and sort of, I guess, the critical thinking part of it as well. So i feel like I'd find it hard to even...
Speaker: you know, get a page down without sort of overthinking everything. But no, it's not currently, I mean, I really love being this side of it. And I really love the creative parts of my job that I can get with working with authors on their manuscripts and sort of plotting and characterization.
Speaker: and then sort of the more business side of things as well. So. hmm. But like you said, you' you know you you're quite near the the beginning of your career. Yes. There's plenty of time, maybe maybe some years down the line, you'' you'll have an idea where you're suddenly like, oh no, I could turn this into a book. This could be something, but maybe a long way off.
Speaker: Yeah, perhaps. And I think that also it's been interesting to see how many books have been coming out the last few years that have been based in sort of publishing and around this area. So I think that I've definitely found that interesting to see how that's kind of gone into fiction and sort of reading patterns and things.
Speaker: Yes. I spoke to someone the other day who is sick of all of the books about publishing. Well, I actually thought that I was too, but then I read Fruit Fly by Josh Silver and that was incredible. So I'm back in.
Speaker: That's the thing is that I think ah a great story will stand out no matter where it's in. Like, you know, people say romanticcy is so oversaturated right now. But if an incredible story that was also romanticcy came out, it would still stand out and people would be like, oh no, this this is good. we just yes It's just surrounded by lots of things which are sort of just following a trend.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. um Awesome. So that brings us to the point in the episode where I ask you Mia, if you were snowed in at a cozy woodland cabin in the middle of nowhere, which book would you hope to have with you?
Speaker: So I thought about this a lot, as it's a very hard question. um But I think it would be Rebecca by Daphne du Maurier. It's one that i frequently revisit, and every time I enjoy it just as much as the first. It's one I recommend to everyone, and people who've read it before, you know, sort of agree that it's fantastic, and people that have never read it love it. I've had so many people read that book who are sort of, you know, they're not big readers, they don't usually read fiction especially. and have just been completely won over by it and yeah i mean i think the setting would work well for because it's sort of that gothic kind of haunted feeling yeah um yeah every time i read it it sort of brings new things for me so i think it would be that yeah it's an like it's an iconic book it's a lot of people's like number one like this is this is like the best book for me yeah i can imagine what about what about that then what about a retelling of rebecca
Speaker: I would absolutely love a retelling of Rebecca. I think it would have to be done so well to be able to sort of break through. And I know that as so many people in publishing love that book and obviously have Anthony DiMaurier. So I think that again, it would have to just be completely stand out and done in a really interesting way. But yeah, I mean, anyone, any writer who's listening who wants to do that, please send that to me. I would love to read that.
Speaker: Yeah, I think when the like source material is like so close to people, um it's you have to be you have to to be even better than I think. I think something like, you know unless you're a scholar of Arthurian legend, people kind of loosely are attached to the Arthurian legends. But unless you're like, you've really studied that, people aren't that close to it. But i think something like Rebecca, like you say, so many people in publishing, that is one of their like favorite all-time books. I guess it's like, the you We were talking about the Odyssey just now. yeah There was the, the translation, the author of the translation who they based it on didn't like it.
Speaker: Yes. Yes. I saw that. And I read, I read it after seeing the film and I thought, yeah, you make a lot of good points here, but I think the thing is I'm not nearly as attached to this um text as, as someone like the translator who has spent years of her life, you know, working on this and working with it. So it's it's very close to her. where it So ah when i'm like when I see the Odyssey movie and it's like, there's a lot of, don't want to say inaccuracies, because it is a myth after all, but like, it's, you know, it's not...
Speaker: exactly as translated, it doesn't bother me because I'm not attached to that to that source material. Yeah, exactly. And I do think there are things like with the Odyssey and i with Austen even, where because there have already been so many interpretations of it, I feel like I have a little bit more...
Speaker: leniency with like sort of allowing people's interpretations to be different and sort of all that kind of yeah thing um whereas yeah if there's something that hasn't been covered a lot then it definitely opens up for it to have more i guess um criticism to it but yes i mean with the odyssey i sort of have i was really into Greek mythology when i was younger as again don't And I'm sure a lot of people in publishing were in art, but actually have haven't read The Odyssey still and will, I'm sure, at some point read it. But I did watch the film and thought that I was almost glad that I hadn't read it before. yes Then I could go into it and just, you know, there's so many things, especially book to film adaptations or book to TV, where I do go in and app I can feel myself be sort of hypocritical because I'm just, you know, aware of all those things. Whereas it was quite nice to just go in
Speaker: sort of I guess as blind as you can be for such an old and well-known story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like that with any, I was talking to some people about the 1917, the World War One movie, and I was like, this is an incredible movie. and then i And then I was lectured on the inaccuracies of it and how it was didn't make any sense. And I was like, okay, sorry, I'm sorry. I guess because with um working in this industry, I feel like I do try and make myself be a little bit more forgiving with things like, and of especially historical inaccuracies, because there are, obviously there are some books and some films where it's incredibly important to keep those um and make it as accurate as possible. But also sometimes it it is just about interpretation. It's about, you know, creativity and the art and just enjoying that as it is.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But, uh, Rebecca, timeless, uh, and a great choice to take with you. Um, next up, we are going to get, uh, into submissions and cover letters and all that fun stuff that will be available in the extended episode, which you can find at patreon.com forward slash right and wrong. Yeah.
Speaker: exactly Exactly. And definitely with the author bios, I think that helps too, because I know that it's quite tricky to sort of, you know, be shouting about yourself, but also it's very needed. so Yes. It's not something we're good at in, in, in Britain. no definite i of ourselves yes um And on that note, uh, we're at the end of the episode. Thank you so much, Mia, for coming on and chatting with me and telling us all about your kind of journey into publishing, as well as kind of what you're looking for and, uh, and your ever growing list. It's been so interesting and fun chatting with you.
Speaker: Thank you, you too, Jamie, and thanks for having me. And hopefully it's been um helpful and so sort of slightly insightful and not too waffly. No, it's been great. It's been fantastic. And for anyone listening, if you want to keep up with what Mia is doing, you can find her on Instagram at mdakinagent. And if you're thinking about submitting to Mia or anyone else at the team Greenheaton, you can find the website greenheaton.co.uk.
Speaker: There's submission pages with all of the guidelines and everything you need to know. as well as each of the authors with their own little bios and stuff. To support this podcast, like, follow and subscribe. Join the Patreon for ad-free extended episodes and check out my other podcasts, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes.
Speaker: Thanks again to Mia and thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode.
