Transcript
Speaker: hey everyone. Just coming in here as an editor really quick. First thing, i just wanted to let you know, this episode ends early by accident. Shane, he had a record on his phone because he forgot his computer and microphone. Because of that, something has to do with the way that it stores data and it just reached the limit, I guess. So,
Speaker: Cut us off a little early. And then secondly, because of that, um I had to go back and re-download the episodes to upload them. And I just got the internet quality backup, so I didn't actually get our studio recording. So this is like a internet version of the podcast. So there's a little bit of like static stuff. it's a little bit weird. Just wanted to let you guys know.
Speaker: As you're going into this, this is not normal. We're going fix this issue for next week, so don't don't stress out. just wanted to let you know. Anyways, hope you guys enjoyed the episode. And yeah, we'll get into it. Thanks. everyone, welcome to episode, what episode is this? Is this 51? I do not know. It's it's hard to remember, but second episode back from the break, we'll just go with that.
Speaker: Anyways, we're we're we're back, we're ah launching into a new series that Mountain View just started on this last Sunday. So just kind of exciting to be back in the swing of things. So we were able to be here last week for Anniversary Sunday and now we're kind of back in the fall flow. So hopefully, like I said before in the last episode, we're just going keep going with regular episodes every Tuesday. So we're recording this Tuesday night.
Speaker: So hopefully the sermon is still fresh for everyone that was there on Sunday and was listening to it. um I try to remember everyone, but remind everyone, but go back and listen to the sermon if you haven't already. It's not required. We're still going to talk about things that you are going to find, you know, if you're somewhat theologically inclined, you're still going to find interesting. It just will help because you'll understand a little bit more of the context and there are questions that are prompted from the sermon. So I hope that's not a barrier for people listening to this. You don't have to, like if you don't go to Mountain View and you don't have time to listen to the sermon before you listen to these podcasts, it's okay.
Speaker: It does help though. So I will, I will just throw that out there for you. And if you're going to Mountain View as a near church, I think, you know, you should be engaged with the sermons anyway. So there's that. This is more for the people that are not. Yeah.
Speaker: So anyways. All right. So Shane revelation. Yeah. Is that the title? What's the title of the year of the series? or Letters to the church. Letters to the church.
Speaker: Awesome. Yeah. I should know that. So the first question really is, I mean, So what set this up for us? Why why pick Revelation?
Speaker: Why are we only doing a few of the chapters, not the whole book? And then what you know what was this on your heart? you know What was the thought process behind picking this? i just want to hear the whole the whole shebang. um I really like i like the idea of the set covering the seven churches because I really do feel like it it just helps set up like – what we as a church should be focused on, you know, where our heart is. um And i felt like it was a good way of talking about where a church's focus should be and the heart should be, but also be doing some exegetical preaching through, you know, ah sections of scripture. So what is, what is exegetical for those of us? I know what that is, but just if anyone doesn't. Yeah. Basically just taking, uh,
Speaker: um a section of scripture and going through it and you know like yeah pulling pulling that out, um looking at what it's saying and then applying applying it to today versus a topical sermon. right And when we do both um at MVF. We don't have a like, oh, only one or the other.
Speaker: um But, you know, a topical sermon is more you the idea that you are thinking about stuff that we are dealing with as Christians, and then you're specifically kind of handpicking passages of scripture that that deal with that topic.
Speaker: um And... Yeah, but you know done in a healthy way, it's still there's there's like an unhealthy way where people just kind of like they decide what they want to say and then they find scripture to go with it. um But the healthy way is you know to to find, to to know what scripture says and and you know and then use that as a way to guide you on ah on a topic. and Most people I know who do topical preaching and the way I try to do it um in a healthy way is you kind of based it you're you're basing on a concept you pull from ah a a passage and then you use that as your basis. And then you kind of you kind of go all over the place and pick other passages and whatever. But but exegetical is just you know through a one passage of scripture and and using that as your your key text.
Speaker: Got it. No, i think I like that that you're doing both. I think there's pros and cons that are obvious to yeah but Actually, and now that I'm saying that, it's actually expository is the style of preaching. Exegetical is the way of preaching.
Speaker: of more of like reading it where you're, you're, um, yeah, you're right. pulling Yeah. So exegeting is, yes, you're taking things out of scripture and there's two ways to do that, which does apply to this. There's, um, I said Jesus, which is reading your meat, which which is reading your meaning into scripture. So for example, and is said Jesus might be, I think that God wants me to be rich. And then you read certain passages,
Speaker: messages in scripture, like add a context completely that get you to that conclusion. Or I think that I should have to have, um, I should be polygamist. Like I should have 30 wives. And so then you read into the, into like, you know, an eisegesis into, versus exegesis, which is taking the meaning out of scripture.
Speaker: So if you're like, you know, if you've ever heard, I'm sure a lot of you guys have heard somebody say something totally wonky about scripture and you're like, huh? And they're like no, see these verses say that. And it's really, it's really clear. And you look at the verses, you're like, huh?
Speaker: The verse does say that, but I'm pretty sure that's not right. You're, you know, if you dig into it, you have to look through the culture and the context and all this other stuff. and then you're like oh, wait a hold on. That's not true at all. Like that's not, they were, they were using, um, I said Jesus and not exegesis.
Speaker: which is yeah a funny word. Not Jesus. yes It's spelled weird. It's not Jesus like J-E-S-U-S. It's not Jesus at all. Yeah. Yeah. It's G-E-S-I-S. And yeah, so I was mixing up the words, but yeah, but expository preaching is basically where you're going through the scripture and you're explaining just the passage of the Bible. But exegeting the scripture is kind of how start study to to explain the Bible. so you So you really should be doing exegesis even if you're doing topical sermon. Correct, yeah. And then you preach it expository. So anyway, my my brain got off on saying it. No, I knew what you meant. Yeah, I knew what you meant. Yeah, but in case anyone else didn't. so
Speaker: I think there's people that do teach both ways, and you it's like – you could be reading your own meaning into scripture with both styles of preaching if you want to. Oh, it's a lot harder with expository, but it's still possible because you're the one that's guiding congregation through things. Yeah.
Speaker: I don't know if anyone listening can resonate with this, but like you could listen. And I think you kind touched on this chain a little bit, but like you could listen to one section of scripture and have someone explain it to you and you're like, I could totally see that meaning. And then you listen to a totally different commentator. And it's a totally like, Oh, I totally actually understand what he's saying. It's totally opposite. And it, so you could misuse. and I'm not saying people do this. I'm just saying it it could happen. You could read your own meaning regardless. It's a lot harder with expository because a lot of the context is surrounding it, but it's still, it's still possible.
Speaker: Yeah, it's funny that you say that because that we'll get into that as you talk about the four meanings, the four ways of looking at Revelation. But that's one of the reasons i don't tell people like my way of my view of Revelation because i will. I'll hear one guy who's really scholarly in one view, and I'll be like, yeah, okay, I see that, and I'm that. look And then I'm like, oh, wait, I heard this other one. i So I actually i don't have a hard enough view on it, and so I'm like, yeah, I'm not even going to share where my view is.
Speaker: No, that's fair. that's fair But a anyway, so yeah, because we we can we can easily do that. But yeah, anyway. Okay, so right so yeah, back to Revelation. so you picked it.
Speaker: um Yeah. So yeah, whats why so few chapters and what else? Yeah, i'll just keep going into it. Well, like said, I wanted to hit the the church and what we should be doing as a church, what our purpose the church and everything. But i was like, well, these letters really hit that, you know, and so just thought we'd cover it.
Speaker: but And I've never preached out of Revelation. um I've used passages from Revelation, but I've never preached them as a as the starting point, right? So that was another reason. And you know and the first three chapters, you know only doing a few chapters, because quite frankly, um i kind of talked about it. I think to do Revelation justice,
Speaker: and really, really preach through it without just covering like major themes, yeah you know, I guess you could do that. it It would take a long time because I think all four views kind of need to be presented and it would be a long time. And I'm not willing to spend that much time of the entire congregations to to do that. At this point, I don't think that's where our best value is for us to be learning all together as a church. yeah i totally see the value in it and i i think a class is great um but we just we haven't gotten to that point um where we have someone willing to do that um and uh yeah so that's fair that's fair yeah so and you know it's so this the first three chapters you know yeah you're hitting the seven churches they stop after chapter three you know so you're getting this whole theme and then also if you look through revelation those
Speaker: those three chapters are the main part of Jesus speaking in revelation. After that, it gets into John explaining the whole vision, but this is the, the part of Jesus speaking. So got it. Okay. A few reasons.
Speaker: Yeah, no. Okay. That, that, that checks out. Um, is there anything else, you know, why it was like, like, ah you know, talk little bit about why it was in your heart, but is there anything else like leading into this that you want to tell people on the podcast that you like, I hope you guys know this about the series or whatever.
Speaker: yes Not so much anything im my other than just, you know, my guess is if people have heard chapter one preached in the past, and I'd actually love to hear your thought on that. I've never heard chapter one preached the way I preached it before.
Speaker: up until about six months ago, I heard a sermon um from Mariners Church, where it not at all, like if you were to look at the points, they they were a little bit different in the points, but his focus was on the love of Jesus being displayed there. And and it kind of really, it really challenged my thinking in the way I've always read read chapter one. I always have always focused on his holiness and the glory, you know, that aspect. but And I still did try to like hit on that in a way that, um,
Speaker: was a little different from the one on the sermon I had heard. But um anyway, just really, I really liked that view of like, really, when you read those words, i mean, there's a lot there that shows his compassion, his love, his heart. And so I don't know I mean, was it different for you from any sermon you've heard on chapter one? Or have you- I have never- Well, i'll take that back. I listened to a sermon series a while ago on Revelation, and it was an overview of the whole book.
Speaker: And the whole point was it, or not the whole, well, ah a couple of the main points were more like more like you were saying earlier, like the themes, like it wasn't into the nitty gritty. It wasn't... you know, an expository verse by verse. We're going to go through every single detail. So he had a lot, and it it was a lot more about like John's perspective. And a lot of it was, you know, what did John see next versus not necessarily what happens, um, is, you know, chronologically like this is, you know a lot of these things that he's seen are, it's the whole, know,
Speaker: now and not yet kind of theme of like some of this has already happened or happening to the, you know, the Jewish people and some of it's not yet to happen. This is going to look, you know, this is obviously in the future. um so he was talking a lot more about that. It was a lot less of like the gritty. So I've never actually heard a, okay, here's chapter one of Revelation and and we're going talk about this. So for what it's worth. Okay. All right.
Speaker: Anyways. um Well, cool. Well, that's, that's, that's exciting. um Yeah. I was surprised. i I, you know, like when you first mentioned revelation, i was like Oh wow. Dang. So cool. It'll be fun to get into it. Yeah.
Speaker: Quickly, can you just describe those four views up that people have about Revelation? We don't need to go into every nitty gritty, but just like what are the four main ones? And then give give me like a two sentence, like this is what they believe essentially, or what the person would say. So um there's even kind of two different ways to answer this. um And so there's there's kind of four ways people read Revelation, and um they would be the preterist, historic, futurist, and idealist. But those are even kind of based on four views of the end times. huh and those four views would be, well, it's actually, I would say there three, but... premillennial, postmillennial, and amillennial. And then it' um it's partial amillennial, I think. is um Anyway, it's something, there's two different ways of seeing it as in an amillennial view. But premillennial is that Jesus returns before the millennium, the thousand-year reign.
Speaker: ah And then postmillennial is Christ returns before after a prolonged period of, you know, really or kind of horrible situations and then the whole apocalyptic stuff that everyone reads about and hears about and then establishes his kingdom. And then the amillennial is that the thousand years of Revelations 20, see, i I said Revelations, I do that. right right it's It's Revelation, but I call Revelations all the my um Anyway, that thousand year reign that thousand years in in Revelation 20 is basically considered symbolic um and that it's the present reign of Christ during the church age um instead of it something to really to come. So rather than it being kind of a future literal thousand year earthly, kingdom and then it's more seeing it Christ returns at the end of this age and then there's the judgment and the eternal state. So um those are kind of the three key views um but um like said people kind of your view on that is kind of based on how you see it. is If you see it there's
Speaker: preterist, historicist, future, and idealist. So, um I don't know if that, does that clarify it or is that even? Yeah, no. Yeah. I think people are still going to have questions. And you mentioned that four views book. Like for those of you who are like, I just don't understand what at all he just said.
Speaker: It's fine. There's lots of that. lot That's confusing. I mean, you could do some Google searches and do some commentaries and books and you know, it's, it's, yeah it takes a while. Most people who are experts in this field,
Speaker: our experts may be in an unhealthy way. So it's it's not always bad to be a little bit ignorant and go, I'm going to go into this with like a, you know, open mind as opposed to. The one thing I would say with, with revelation, what I always try to caution people is this is one of the key areas where I would say, read actual theologians on it. Don't read just books where people are promoting their view on it. um You know, because a good theologian on it will,
Speaker: will take their view, like like even just by a commentary on it, like a good commentary um on it, oftentimes will give, as you're going through, give the four views. And you know and yeah, I mean, the kind you know if you're confused by even the word millennial, when we talk about that, millennialism and all that, you you probably need to start there. You need to kind of start with understanding what what we're even talking about with that. um But I just, every book, i you know, if if a book is like 180 pages and it's about revelation, it's usually, it's kind of sensationalist. I i haven't read very many
Speaker: the that I'm like, okay, they're doing the book of Revelation justice. It's more like they're trying to get people worked up about stuff. That's the way I personally know. Someone might bring me a book and I might go, okay, there's one I i didn't know about that one. sure you know But that's why I was recommending that in Four Views because though it is it's a very basic verton written out book.
Speaker: um, uh, outline of, of all four views written by, you know, good, strong theologians.
Speaker: Yeah. So that kind of just totally like brings up this s thing next, this part of that same question is just, why do you think people are so passionate about their point of view on this more than, I mean, truly more than almost anything else. And I don't know what it is, but like, I've noticed that just like you, you, you'll talk to people and they're like, I'm, I'm, I'm willing to die for this. Like I'm willing to die for my view and that it, that it's correct. And I'm like,
Speaker: I don't see that about honestly anything else. And I mean, I, and I get that there are some places in scripture where there's not as much argument over the interpretation, but there are others that are. And I'm like, man, what is it about this specifically? And like, I mean, I've seen people, they could go on tirade for two hours talking about their view and anyone else that doesn't think it but that doesn't think the same way. And I'm like, out of all the things that,
Speaker: It just, yeah it it surprises me. Why do you think that's the case? Like what's, what's going on there? I think there's a few reasons. one I mean, people are interested in in the end, you know? i mean, we want we all kind of want even people who aren't believers, really, they like, we kind of want answers, right? We want to we want to know what is this really all going to come to in the end? And, you know, we also want to know that that it matters at some level, you know? And um so I think it starts with that, and then that kind of builds a passion in people. um
Speaker: And then it is interesting. So if you're, like said, there's two ways of looking at people. There's people who are really timid and and don't even, they're scared to get into it.
Speaker: And then there are people who get into it. And there are some that started scared and they get they get into it And then once you start getting into it, it is interesting. They get really, if especially if you have the kind of mind who likes to figure things out.
Speaker: right So you have people who don't really care about figuring things out. right like like yeah you know Our family is kind of divided into that. like People who just have faith and they believe and they love Jesus and they know he loves them and they're good. right And then you have some of us who are a little bit more like, no, we gotta figure this out and discuss it. And people who like to figure it out, revelation is a lot to figure out. so And what I've found is people who like to figure things out,
Speaker: They have a tendency to also think once they have that they're right about it. And I don't care what what it is, if it's the Bible, if it's engineering, if it's, ah you know, math equations or, you know, whatever it is, they have they have a tendency to be the kind of people that like, well, I dug into this, I figured it out. And then, so then once we think that way, we're we're usually kind of passionate about it, you know? yeahp um So i think it is kind of a combination it attracts a certain kind of personality, but all people,
Speaker: you know, have a little bit of a passion of wanting to know how it all works out in the end. Yeah. So I don't know. There's, I mean, and there's, there's more to it than that. Well, okay. And then a negative reason, I'll give you a negative reason.
Speaker: Yeah. And that's kind I talked about it when I went in the beginning of the sermon. the The only two people I've ever sat under in um learning about Revelation were people who taught it as though this is the truth.
Speaker: So so i don't know about you, well, we have some of our LDS friends, right, that come to church that have have come out of the LDS church. And like, when once they like, oh, wait, that wasn't true.
Speaker: like did Like it really rocks the world, right? So same thing goes with with this. Like if you you've got a lot of people that spent 10, 15 years thinking there was only one way to see it.
Speaker: And then all of a sudden you're saying, oh, wait, there's a way to say There can't be a different way to say it. I've spent my whole life thinking it's this way. And, you know, because i do I think a lot of people who teach it, they just teach it and say this is this is it. i've Most people I've read never go, hey, here's a theory that I have based on my theology and, you know, that that kind of thing. So anyway.
Speaker: No, that's interesting. Okay. No, that's that's fair. Oh, yeah. and And I mean, I'm not trying. And if you're listening and you're like, well, I have opinion on this and I'm like i'm not bashing you. that's I think it's not wrong to have a stance. I think it's more if you are so aggressive and hurtful to other people that are that are still, again, trying to go to the words or not trying to get different. You know, there's.
Speaker: you know There's different you know heretical opinions, I guess. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying you know you're within, like you said, orthodox Christianity of like this is you know this is a way to read the Bible, and you're like, no, that person is demonic because it's actually this, and you're like, whoa, hold on. Yeah, and then I guess that's what I really want to get across is that there are Bible-believing, very smart theolog theologians You know, cons conservative, they'd all be within Orthodox conservative Christian doctrine in their theology that have, that take differing of these four views.
Speaker: Right. so, so I, know and so I just, that's why I just want be so careful not to ever teach it like, hey, this is the only way to see it. so Yep. No, it's fair. Oh, awesome. Well, cool. Um, I had just a few questions just about the passage and some things and, um, you know, no one actually sent in questions this week, you know, I guess we're, we're slowly ramping back up. And then for those of listening, I'm sorry. I had a whole issue with Apple podcasts, which is where like maybe 80% of our listeners are located, but Apple podcasts decided they just hated our podcast for some reason. And it would not update. Like if I was posting something, like that it's called an RSS feed and it's just nerd learn nerd language for basically Apple podcast is hosting it and they need a link to host it, to host your podcast. And they just did not want to host it for some reason. So I had the right link. Everything was correct and it wasn't updating and it took me all week to figure it out. And I just figured it out this morning with someone on tech support. So
Speaker: It was issue on their end. It wasn't an issue on our end. No. So sorry the podcast was posted to Spotify, but it wasn't posted to Apple podcasts. And I got so much grief. I had like four people text me about it and I was like, sorry, like, yes, we're back, but no, it's not on Apple podcasts yet. So anyways, um, so I just, yeah. Anyways, we don't, we don't have any questions. These are just mine. Um,
Speaker: I was curious. four texts, so half of our listeners texted you? Yeah, exactly. they are the People are eager. People are eager. ah um So, first question I had i just had. what What does John mean in verse 10, chapter 1, verse 10, when he says, I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and then he he goes on from there.
Speaker: don't know if you have it front of you, but I was reading that, and I was like, what does that mean? Okay. here's It's pretty complicated. Here it is. I have no idea. yeah ah so Okay. Okay. And honestly, I know, see nobody. read i mean, I, I read, you know, and I've read before just so many different views on it and everything from, and that's why in the sermon, I just said, Hey, he was worshiping. So I would say the, the base standard is he was worshiping.
Speaker: Now, what what what did that entail was it um you know was he under a certain empowerment of the holy spirit was he um in a just a deepest state of meditation um you know and and obviously we're talking about meditating on on the word and and just really just seeking to allow the holy spirit in um there's there's some differing views um And then all the way down to, like I've read, you know, liberal people kind of say, oh, well, you know, that means he would, you know, that shows that John was using drugs, you know, I mean, you know. So you've had, I've had people here just kind of throw heretical things. to Wow. But but all, oh based you know, all standard theologians would say, hey, at the very least, he was in a state, he was worshiping.
Speaker: And then what, what, how much more did it mean? That's up to, you know, there's some different interpretations. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Cause I i see that and I, and my mind instantly goes to, well, first of all, the Lord's day, is that talk? Is he talking about like the Sabbath or is the Lord say something different? Or ah i wasn't, yeah say like the sort is well, you've heard like the whole day of the Lord is like the return. Sorry.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, no, I have, we have heard that, but, but, ah yeah, but there again, most, I, there again, I tend to go with the most, like, okay, 70% of, you know, theologians I follow and listen to and, you know, study would say,
Speaker: you know, it fits at least this. So let's just at least say that. and then we can, you know, throw some other things from there. No, that totally makes sense. Yeah. Again, that was just, just stood out to me as I was reading through that. Cause again, I don't say a lot of people. Yeah.
Speaker: Well, I try to do that. Like when I'm like, when I'm, you know, even if I like listen to the sermon, like I'm like, I'm just going to read it. Cause sometimes like, I'll just like, Oh, that's interesting too. you Like, what does that mean? And that one just like, it stood right out. was like, what in the world?
Speaker: So yeah cool. Um, The next question, and that you did talk about this a little bit, but I didn't know if you wanted to unpack it any further. why Why was it good and why is it and and like a good idea that John was in exile and that and he kind of used that to relate to the believers because he's also you know he's also going through suffering and that kind of gives them hope. Can you kind of break that down a little bit? You talked about a little bit about how you hate when you're going through a hard time and the person next to you is having the easiest time they're like, hang in there, bud, and you're like, I i hate that.
Speaker: yeah Yeah, and don't know, I mean, maybe and maybe not everyone hates it that way, but I definitely get, like, I'm like, no, you don't get what I'm going through. So, um you know, and i I just felt like, you know, I noticed, like, if you look through the different letters ah that the apostles wrote to the churches, most of them, they they greet with some level of their authority.
Speaker: You know, yeah um they'll they'll mention ah that they're apostle. You know, Paul even has a progression from, you know, at one point he's, you know, the the least among the apostles and then he's just an apostle, you know, all um they So they usually...
Speaker: hitting on that authority level, where in this one, John, he doesn't do that. He comes alongside as a brother and partner in their tribulation.
Speaker: So, yeah you know, I'm a brother in Christ, but I know that you're suffering and I'm going through that suffering as well. And you know this, you know, and just so you, know I mean,
Speaker: we we basically believe based on the timeframe that Revelation was written, that by this point, John had seen all, most if not all of the other apostles um like killed for their faith. So yeah so he's he's lost people, he's he's gone through the tribulation. And I even love that he's he doesn't say, hey, don't talk about your suffering. If you wanna talk about suffering, like, you know, i look at my suffering. He's not doing that. He's just saying, hey, you're going through hard things and I want you to know, i know where you're at. i
Speaker: I've been through this with you. And I just feel like it it opens up the listener you know, here's these churches that some of them are suffering. Like we're going look at in two weeks. Is it sar it Smyrna, right? can't understand I'm saying in these churches, right? Anyway, you know, they're just, they're going through suffering and they're just going to continue going through suffering, you know? and um And, you know, and he's just,
Speaker: saying and he's been going through suffering as well and so yeah i don't know if that's answering the question you were asking yeah that was fine i just wanted you to expound on that and then this might be oh i gotta be careful here i'm gonna i'm gonna ask this like an interesting not off off topic or not off script there you go off script question do you think it ruins the witness for certain pastors to be preaching to their congregation about how to how to suffer well when they're in like a crazy, lavish lifestyle? And I'm not saying they're comfortable. I'm talking like crazy, lavish. like They're taking you know private planes everywhere. and they They're just like making making so much money. do you And again, I don't know where you're at on like where you're out in this, but do you think that kind of is like a
Speaker: hey, trust me, guys, hang in there. And meanwhile, there you know people are just suffering and starving at their church and and struggling. and struggling i don't know where you – what what what do you think about that? Like, and that's a little bit of a can of worms. So, okay, I am not one that says a pastor should make a certain amount of money. I'm not the one who's going say, hey, a pastor should only make this amount or anything like that. The way I look at it is a pastor should not – my My personal philosophy, and this is not a theology, this is a philosophy, and there's a big difference, right? Do we get that?
Speaker: Yeah, sure. Okay, okay. So this is a philosophy of mine, is that that a pastor should not be probably in the top 30% of his congregation.
Speaker: Okay, so interesting. So, you know, if your congregation is, you know, making, say let's just say, on average between 200 and 100,000 a year, you know, I don't think the pastor should be at that 200,000. I think the pastors, you know, should be somewhere probably, i mean, if the church can afford it, if the church can afford it, I think, hey, you know, if they can pay the pastor 160, 170, that's awesome. Good for them. And that that's awesome. um But if, you know, so i think it should be somewhere around in you know, you know,
Speaker: that line and So I definitely don't think the pastor should be the lowest. yeah There are some people that think, well, the pastor should be the lowest paid person in the church. you know um And then there are some people who go too far the other way, like you're just saying right now. And and my guess is the pastor who's taken private jets anywhere, I've yet to find a church where 30% of the people have a private jet. So I would say when you're as a pastor, you shouldn't be probably in the lavish side of your congregation. You should be you know probably somewhere more the along the lines of the humble side, but able to be still in relationship with your congregation.
Speaker: So um you know I don't think there's a certain amount a pastor should make. I don't think it's too much. i don't And I'm, you know, I'm probably getting some upset with this, you know, you, you touched on being careful on this, but I'm just being honest. This is, you know, where my philosophies would be. And I, and in you know, when I first got into ministry, I kind of had a little bit more of a pastor should be poor mentality. um and um but I've just seen some, know, I've gotten to know some very godly pastors who I really look up to that they pastor some churches with,
Speaker: like very high level financial people who are able to finance awesome vision and ministry and, you know, see awesome things happen. And those, those pastors, you know, have to be able to spend time and a relate relationship with them and kind thing. And, you know, if they're, so it's just a tough, it's a tough balance. I don't think there's a right or or wrong yeah other than personally, i get, so I would get,
Speaker: I would really have a problem with a pastor trying to live in a lavish lifestyle and then especially talk about suffering. Yeah. That makes sense. You know, like, joel let's just take Joel Osteen, right? Forget even his theology.
Speaker: i you know, my theology doesn't probably, you know, I don't want to judge his heart. I'm not i'm not judging where Joel's heart is. You know, and I'm not even going to call him a heretic. Like some people would, but I i i don't see that. um and From what I see, he's probably he's probably at the top end of anything I would be like, well, maybe that's okay. you know But there are guys that like make him look like he's living in poverty. Yeah, I have no idea. i don't even know what he makes. i'm I'm curious. No, I don't know exactly, but i've I've looked into some of that a little bit. And you know i mean and he he only he he definitely makes a lot of money, but he but he also has a lot of people that...
Speaker: yeah you know, fun, big, big thing. So that it's ah it's a tough one. Yeah. I think for me, like, again, I don't know like a money line or anything, but I think kind of just going back to like the, like, you know, with John, like if you're,
Speaker: tough you know you're if you're leading a group of people, you've got to be in it with them. And so if you're so far ahead or so far outside of their reality, yeah I mean, like it's like you're not really leading them. And I um i can't remember.
Speaker: i you know like oh who was it? I want to say it was Napoleon. Oh, hold on. this is this this This is worth it. I'm going to Google this right right now, but this this is worth it.
Speaker: Okay. I have a cool quote or a cool story about this.
Speaker: while you're doing that real quick. um You know, like there's, there are there are people who are, in my mind, just wolves in sheep's clothing, and they are purposely getting rich off of even keeping Christians poor.
Speaker: Got it. You know, and, you know, that to me is is flat out wrong, you know. So, you know, I definitely think that's that stuff is stuff that we gotta be very mindful of and careful of.
Speaker: Okay, I found it. So it's not Napoleon. It's ah ah like Alexander the Great. And I love this. This is like, to me, this is like, oh, chills. I love the story. So Alexander the Great is, you guys don't know who that is. you know i'm not going to have to, I can't give you a whole history lesson. Like it's going to be it's going to be tough. yeah You should know who Alexander the Great is. is um Anyways, so he i mean he conquers and he's a young he's a young guy. and He conquers like everything. But there's this point and this story where I'm just like, I love this.
Speaker: um he has his his army is just grumbling with like to him, and they're pretty much threatening to mutiny. And he kind of gets up in front of his entire...
Speaker: army and while they're all just like giving him so much grief and telling him like you don't deserve to be our leader we need to get somebody else because at this point they're just tired and like you know you know he has conquered so much and they've been in so many battles and he starts to like in front of his entire like entire army he starts to like he takes off his hat first and then he takes off his shirt and like his tunic and like his anyways he he pretty much completely stripped all the way down in front of his um his army.
Speaker: And he said, look at my body. He said, look at all the scars that they have. And then he says, notice that they're all on the front. Pretty much just pointing out that in every single battle, he's been the first one in the fight and all of his scars are on the front of his body. He has nothing on the back of his body because he's never turned around and went back. He's only like gone forward and he's been at the front of the charge with every single battle, which he was like known for. so I'm like, Oh, that's, that's such a great like picture of,
Speaker: like a great leader is he's not the kind of guy that's like, I'm leaning from the back. I don't have any scars or my scars are on my back because I was actually, you know, I would get a little scared and then have to run back. He's like, no, I'm, I'm in it with you.
Speaker: Um, so i I don't know, to me, I'm like, I love that story. thats stuff That's a great story. Yeah. So yeah that that, that, that concept, yeah Yeah, and I know we kind of opened up a whole can of worms. you know, your question was, what do I think of the person who then I would say exactly what you're saying, you know, you've got to be willing to go where you're asking people to go.
Speaker: So if you're not willing to do that, then you shouldn't be, you're not leading. you know and But as far as, you know i kind of got into like you know how much a pastor makes or what ah what ah all I'm saying is that you know I think there's somewhere in that line of a pastor that needs to be with the people, needs to be able to do those things. If a church can afford it and still be able to do all the ministry, like a church never be suffering.
Speaker: to pay a pastor. And um and you know the pastor should be the first one, like you said, just like that, to make the sacrifices, to to dig in deep and do the things that need need to be done. you can't we you know We had a spiritual leadership class that we're doing and the first thing I said is you can't lead where you're not going.
Speaker: so yeah No, i totally I totally get it. um and I think that's, yeah, that that that last phrase just sums it up You can't lead where you're not going. so yeah um Well, cool. that Yeah, again, that was totally off script. I was just like, oh, that just, some throw something and wild in there.
Speaker: um Next question. Why is it important, and you, again, touching it a little bit, I just wanted to talk more about it. Why is it important that we are all priests? And can you break down the cultural cultural significance of that?
Speaker: Why is it important that we are all priests? Well, you know, under the old covenant, only a priest could enter into God's presence. um You know, we got get into the whole temple thing with,
Speaker: the holiest police, the holiest, you know, the holiest place, the, um, uh, the courtyard, all, all that kind of stuff that the people could only go in to the courtyard and then the priests could only go in to the holy place. And then the, only the high priests could go into the holy of holies. And that was even only once a year. So, you know, so for the,
Speaker: for what, not just the centuries, for a millennium, right? About a thousand years. that They, yeah they um you the people knew it was ingrained in them that I can only get so close to God.
Speaker: A priest has that special place with God, that special relationship, that special connection. And so when John says, you're made a kingdom ah and priest to God the Father,
Speaker: he's he's saying you are now in this place where you you are brought into the presence of God, fully into the presence. yeah There is nothing separating you from him. And um that, for us, it seems so like, yeah, we hear that all the time. Like every Sunday, right? where're We're constantly hearing that. yeah to To put that in the mind of these first century readers, it that was mind blowing for them.
Speaker: um Totally, you know, total culture shift for them. right I like that. I think. well good Well, here, go ahead. ahead get more Well, I was just going to say, you know, I mean, it's i because it's it breaks my heart. I kind of think it's funny and it also breaks my heart.
Speaker: did There are every once in if you're one of these people that has done this to me, know that I'm not, you know, laughing at you for doing it. i i just it just shows how we how easily we we kind of get off um and forget things.
Speaker: at least three or four times a year, someone will come up to me and ask me to pray specifically for something and literally say something along the lines of, I know you have a special connection. Like, or I know, i know your prayers work.
Speaker: Or, you know, that kind of thing. And, um you know, and I kind of laugh at the innocence of that, like the like the lack of understanding there. But it also makes me sad because I'm like, oh,
Speaker: Like, you know, and I always try to make sure I explain it to them. like Like, I will certainly pray for you, but my prayer has no more effect than your prayer. We all have that opportunity before God and and no one has, us i am and i am no more special in God's eyes than you are.
Speaker: Yeah, so no, I like that. um This is probably not where you're planning on dealing with this, but I think it just reminds me of, um you know, certain, I think, sexism that kind of sneaks it a little bit into the church.
Speaker: And I've seen this firsthand, and I think this is also something that, like, you know, the culture and right now is facing and kind of it's, there's a, there's a swing one way and like run that kind of experience in the swing the other way. But just to set this up, I think over time there's been this more patriarchal, patriarchal view of what like a man's role in the house is. And I've heard this before. And I know people that have said this, that like the man is the prophet priest and King of his house.
Speaker: and Like that's his domain. And I don't like that, especially the priest part because Again, the whole point of a priest is like a go-between between you and God. And as soon as that temple curtain was ripped, when Jesus died, as soon as that happened, as soon as he made that sacrifice, we don't have that. and We don't have a priest like that anymore. Jesus is our high priest. And I mean, if you read Hebrews, which, you know, Hebrews is all about that, is how Jesus is our high priest. So like, it's like the theme of Hebrews, if you haven't read that.
Speaker: So to me I get kind of bugged when a guy will kind of, and and I don't know if anyone does this intentionally. And I've never, I haven't heard anyone personally that says this. I know people that have said that phrase, but I know people will think and can take that to the logical conclusion of I'm kind of my wife's go between before God, which that sounds just like, you know, Latter-day Saints. And I could talk about that for a while because of the way that that relationship works, the way that eternal glory works for them. So it's a little bit like it's, it harkens to that, but still, I'm like, your wife, and for men listening to this, like you have different you are different in role, but equal in value and equal in personhood before the Lord. so yeah
Speaker: Someone might might even say, and i don't you know i'm this is with a transgender conversation, I'm not getting weird with that, but she's a son of God in the same way that you're a son of God. totally and like You would say she's a daughter of God, but she has the same so same sonship. She has the same firstborn heir.
Speaker: relationship with God that we all have. and say Exactly. yeah there's not It's not like, and and i'm hopefully I'm not losing anybody here with my words and that this is making sense. what i'm saying I'm not saying and men and women are women men and women are the same. I'm not saying they have the same role. I'm not saying they're identical. I'm saying for the Lord in terms of value and personhood and inheritance, they're the same. So if you're yeah using out, and again, I'm hoping most men aren't feeling this way towards their wives. And again, sometimes it's actually like too far the opposite and you take it too far and trying to blend gender roles and everything together.
Speaker: But as a man, you should not be looking at your wife and going, Oh, she's so lucky that she has me to go before her for the Lord. Not that you shouldn't pray for your wife, but you're not your wife's means of salvation. And I hope guys realize that. like that's Even for your whole family, you are responsible for what for how you take care of your family and how you teach them and train them. And you're responsible for all that, but you're not responsible to the degree of you are the conduit of how your family will become saved, if that makes sense. yeah And if you put that much pressure on yourself, it's it's very dangerous. I think it's very dangerous. And I don't think it's difficult.
Speaker: You know, it's interesting because you... um the The most godly men I know who I know are leading their families well spiritually are also men, especially as they get older and mature, um who are the first to say loving lucky they are to have their wife who they know lifts them up in prayer and who they see who God speaks to them through her. they like like They still take that responsibility of leader, but yes they they very much go like, man, I couldn't be doing what I'm doing if my wife wasn't the godly woman she is. you know so Yeah, 100%. Yeah, the men I know who take who do all that the right way
Speaker: this And I do believe, especially as you mature in age, they you give more credit to their wives. I will say, going to push back just for a minute with you on that prophet, priest, king thing. Tell me.
Speaker: I totally get where you're going with it. I totally get where that's. Like, it can be used to make it like there's the abuse of it, right? There's the abuse of of all that. But don't though I've actually used that in the pastes To say that, and here's what I would mean by it. It's not at all that you're the priest and your wife can't be a priest. But it's more to say, you need to take the role that a priest would take and that you should be constantly going to God on behalf of your wife. I 100% agree with that. That's a great. yeah and and Yeah. And then profit. You should be looking forward to what God has for your family. Like should be carrying the burden of that. you know And then King, you should be taking the daily care and responsibility to make sure your wife and kids have everything they need. yeah so So you should take those responsibilities, but don't take the power of them.
Speaker: The responsibility, but not power. I 100% agree with what you said there, especially about like the priests. like go like Act in obedience and go before the Lord like on behalf of your family and you know seek to intercede for them. I 100% agree with that. I would just say, but don't take but don't steal Jesus. like Even though you might want to take some of those roles, don't steal the ultimate roles of of Jesus that he gets to fulfill all those because that's who it you know that's what the Bible talks about being the true prophet, priest, and king. So don't try to be that for your family, I guess, is more like where I was going. Don't try to be that. You're not the priest in that way. Yeah, don't ever make your wife feel like a second-class citizen in God's kingdom. yeah Don't ever think you – God sees you higher in the kingdom. Don't – no, none of those yeah things. Yeah, yeah. And again, the biggest thing there is just notice like noting there is there is distinct role differences between men and women. And you know I firmly believe that. I think that's very biblical. But there's not there's not distinct value differences. And I think people have a hard time with that sometimes. But the value thing I think is incredibly important that –
Speaker: You really got to be treating your wife and your kids like you know equal members, you know assuming that you're like for Christians, that equal members of that inheritance that you all receive. So that's yes that's where I was going with that. Sorry, I didn't want to um throw the baby out with the bathwater, I guess, with that.
Speaker: I knew where were going with it. just wanted to make sure I clarified that. That's fair. I actually didn't know that you used that, but interesting. I don't use it regularly, but I have. i have i have Especially in...
Speaker: I've used that in um a little bit in um marital camps, like when I'm talking to couples and kind of trying to get, usually it's because a man isn't taking any spiritual responsibility. and I'm trying to impart on him something, get with it.
Speaker: No, that's fair. Yeah. I think that that tends to be a little bit more of the leaning and more of our culture now. And that's where I was kind of saying there's lot more of an extra backswing, which is you see less. yeah There is that macho that resonance with some people, but I think there's also that total passivity of like, I'm not going to lead me. being my wife yeah My wife's in charge of everything. And I'm not going to be, I'm not going to go before the Lord and intercede for her. Like my wife's the one that takes us all to church. Like, yeah, I totally, it totally see what you're saying there. So um yeah. Hope maybe i ruffle feathers with some of that. i don't know. We'll see.
Speaker: um No, you didn't. I'm sure. Well, we'll see. um Main takeaways from the from the chapter, just as we close, just what is, you know, if people are come come away with one to two, maybe three things from this chapter, what would you hope that they come away with based off your sermon and based off the podcast, like what we're trying to talk about?
Speaker: um Well, off the sermon specifically, I mean, I tried to be really clear that you know, that Jesus loves his church, you know, he's in the midst of his church, you know, so he's he's near, he's with us, he's he's right here with us in the midst everything that you're going through in life. um And that, you know, that, require that
Speaker: it requires a response, you know, and John's response was to, you know, fall down in in fear before the Lord and and and humble awe before the Lord and yet still reminded that what did Jesus do? He put his hand on his shoulder and said, fear not, you know, and that that he he loves us that much and,
Speaker: yeah So, you know, we need to respond um and we should, we, you know, there should be an urgency in what um our desire to be obedient to Christ. So that's through the sermon, I think i would say that was what I was trying to get across. And, you know,
Speaker: and you know um today i Hopefully, you know, just give a little bit more insight into some of those things. I i do feel like i maybe we're more done with this or whatever. i Or even, i don't know. it It probably would be good to just maybe we just do a whole...
Speaker: um podcasts on the four views because i tried to hurry through them and in my mind i'm not even going to want to listen to that because i feel like oh i probably just confused it um by trying to give these quick explanations yeah and i knew that and that's why i tried to say if you're confused go back go do some of your of your own research maybe we could we could do that i'd be down that's there's a lot there that's hard so yeah okay um But yeah, because it is worth it is worth looking at and it's it's worth understanding. and i And I think just even just understanding those four views, just so that you understand, no matter even if you have a really hard line view, like you can, like, you know, we have people on staff. I mean, I bet you we have at least three views represented on staff, you know? and okay
Speaker: And yeah it's interesting to then... you know But having those conversations in love and being able to know that, okay, there's people that I totally respect who have a different view than me. you know And that's that's all I'm trying to get to with with that. sure Sure. so No, I love it.
Speaker: that That was perfect. I think that's a good little summation. Next week, what's the what's the title or what's the topic of the sermon in terms of like, i know we're chapter two, but what's the... It's Ephesus, we're doing the Church of Ephesus, so it's the first seven verses. And it's, um I can't remember exactly how I titled it, but it's basically remembering your first love. um know that Not letting works and theology and everything get in the way of just ah really loving in Jesus.
Speaker: Right. Okay. so Perfect. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you everyone. Um, hopefully, you know, you guys kind of tracked with where we were going. I know we got off topic, which is my fault a couple different times. Um, you guys enjoyed, enjoy our little, uh, rants about things and pirates. Um,
Speaker: Yeah. Do you have anything else to add before you wrap up? I think, I think we're pretty much done. No, I think that, I think that's it. I'm just, I'm just glad we're doing it again. I missed these and now conversations. and I know. I know it. I know it. It's, it's fun to do this. So anyways, awesome. We will see you guys next week. In the meantime, if you guys are listening to this, just remind reminder, you know, we'd love to get questions. So if you happen to listen to sermon live or on the podcast before we record, which again, Tuesday afternoons or Tuesday evenings is kind of
