Transcript
Speaker: Hello, potty people.
Speaker: Welcome back to We Can Do Pod Things.
Speaker: I'm Emily.
Speaker: And I'm Annalise.
Speaker: And we're so happy that you're here.
Speaker: We're happy you're here.
Speaker: We're happy to be here.
Speaker: We're happy that we have technology that works.
Speaker: We're just generally positive podcast people today.
Speaker: Yes, we are.
Speaker: We're going to ignore all of the joyous screams of
Speaker: children's laughter and or shenanigans.
Speaker: Story of my life.
Speaker: And mine as well.
Speaker: So who's ready for a quote of the week?
Speaker: Me.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: This one is not really relevant to our topic today, but I'm still going to read it.
Speaker: This comes from Morgan Richard Olivier.
Speaker: You can't create chaos in the lives of others and expect peace to come into yours.
Speaker: No matter what they did or how you feel, causing hurt to others will never bring healing to you.
Speaker: How very dare you.
Speaker: Yeah, you know that wasn't about you.
Speaker: That was about somebody completely different, right?
Speaker: But maybe also just a little reminder for myself.
Speaker: Yeah, it never hurts to be reminded that...
Speaker: What is it?
Speaker: When they go low, we go high?
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Thank you, Michelle Obama.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: That what goes around comes around as Justin Timberlake is finding out.
Speaker: He sure is.
Speaker: I'm wearing my Britney shirt under here.
Speaker: Good for you.
Speaker: I'm wearing my Mean Girls sweatshirt that I bought at the... Oh, you did?
Speaker: Look at that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It says, she doesn't even go here.
Speaker: I saw a kid at school today who was wearing a blue hoodie with the hood up and sunglasses.
Speaker: And I go, she doesn't even go here.
Speaker: And he looked at me from under those sunglasses, I'm assuming, like I was a crazy person.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Well, first of all, asshole.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Come on.
Speaker: I don't care that you're 12.
Speaker: Get my references.
Speaker: Know what you're doing.
Speaker: First of all, you asked for that.
Speaker: Like you literally wore the outfit.
Speaker: It's iconic.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I thought it was intentional for Halloween, but it seems like maybe it wasn't.
Speaker: It had to have been.
Speaker: I refuse to believe that it wasn't.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: At least he didn't say, Danny Tevito, I love your work.
Speaker: Well, I don't know.
Speaker: Nothing.
Speaker: It would have been funny to see.
Speaker: All right, so Morgan Olivier, thank you so much for that.
Speaker: All right, are you ready to get on to the episode?
Speaker: I am.
Speaker: This episode has been in the making for quite some time.
Speaker: We are covering the episode of the Mark Groves podcast, Mark Groves Create the Love.
Speaker: And this podcast episode was recorded in August of 2021 and features Brian Reeves and
Speaker: who also has his own podcast called Men This Way.
Speaker: And the title of this episode is Inside Male Emotions.
Speaker: We decided to kind of continue with the theme from last week.
Speaker: Did we not?
Speaker: Say more.
Speaker: The last episode.
Speaker: Oh, no.
Speaker: The last episode we did was JVN.
Speaker: Before that, though, we did the episode with Glennon Doyle and Justin Baldoni.
Speaker: This one dovetails nicely with that episode.
Speaker: So full disclaimer, we are women.
Speaker: We have been socialized as women.
Speaker: We are not experts on male emotion.
Speaker: We're just a couple of bitties trying to learn.
Speaker: Learn better so we can do better.
Speaker: The first thing I have written down is what does it mean to choose your person every day?
Speaker: Oh, boy.
Speaker: Well,
Speaker: Of the two of us, only one of us has done this successfully.
Speaker: Well, successfully is relative.
Speaker: Some days go better than other days.
Speaker: Only one of us has a longer track record of it.
Speaker: Yeah, I suppose.
Speaker: But that doesn't always reflect success.
Speaker: A lot deeper into the episode.
Speaker: In fact, one of the last notes I have was when they said...
Speaker: The ideal is two parents together who love each other.
Speaker: The next best is two parents apart who have love for each other.
Speaker: I feel like you guys do that pretty exceptionally.
Speaker: It's the best we can do under the circumstances and with the tools that we have available.
Speaker: I think, though, that's its own way of choosing each other.
Speaker: Oh, my God.
Speaker: Thank you so much for saying that.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: I'm so glad you said that.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: You each chose happiness for the other person.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: We did.
Speaker: So that's just how you do it, I guess.
Speaker: It's just that easy.
Speaker: Well, this was a short episode, you guys.
Speaker: And there you have it, everybody.
Speaker: Five minutes and you're done.
Speaker: It reminds me of my very first, well, not my very first, but my first therapist, previous therapist before Laura, sweet, sweet Holly.
Speaker: And she would talk about that, that the
Speaker: being in a relationship is getting up every day and choosing to be with that person.
Speaker: Choosing.
Speaker: Well, I think the key is kind of something they say earlier on is it's not where we fall short.
Speaker: Isn't when we don't recognize the differences between the two of us.
Speaker: It's where we try to eliminate them.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Or erase them.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So I think that's how you do it.
Speaker: I wonder how many times in this recording I'm going to say, how very dare you.
Speaker: It's not me.
Speaker: It's Mark Gromes and Brian Reeves.
Speaker: Blame it on the men.
Speaker: So one of the very first things they say is that men feel picked on relationally
Speaker: recently because – and then Mark's the one that said it.
Speaker: I ain't saying it.
Speaker: We've had the advantage of not having to look at our shit, and now we have to look at our shit, and it feels really unfair.
Speaker: And that's privilege.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Don't they say men have been picked on, but women have been sat on?
Speaker: That's exactly what I – yep, I wrote that down.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I think, though, that it is still important to keep in mind that all feelings are valid.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And... I don't mind saying that I don't envy the job of men when it comes to examining their feelings at all.
Speaker: Not a bit.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: There's so much more room for women to do that than there is for men.
Speaker: There's a lot more safety, it seems like.
Speaker: And it's only fair to...
Speaker: not fair.
Speaker: I don't even like the word fair.
Speaker: It's only moral to ensure that that kind of environment is available to all people.
Speaker: Because yes, one of the universal laws, one of the laws of the universe is that polarity, the masculine and feminine, but socially speaking, our liberation is tied to each other.
Speaker: If we, and if we,
Speaker: insist on this binary, we're eliminating an entire spectrum of people who don't subscribe to just one.
Speaker: And like we've talked about before, we all have both.
Speaker: It's balance.
Speaker: It's yin and yang.
Speaker: And ignoring the other half of the equation is not balance.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: In fact, a lot of times when they were talking about relationships and the masculine and the feminine,
Speaker: I feel like in my own relationship.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: In a lot of examples I am.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because what he said was with masculine and feminine has nothing to do with colors or strength or anything like that.
Speaker: One is seeking connection and one is seeking freedom.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm the avoidant attachment.
Speaker: You are the seeking freedom and your husband is seeking connection.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I've listened to this podcast probably four times now, but it hasn't been until the last few times that that's really been driven home to me that you can think of them in those concepts.
Speaker: And that maybe helps us understand and accept and see them and recognize them in ourselves.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: When we take away this coded language that doesn't really serve the purpose that we need it to right now.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: He says, men are set up to fail in relationships because no one, and then Brian says, and this is very Justin Baldoni.
Speaker: The first chapter of his book was no one ever taught me how to be a man.
Speaker: I just shared something with Justin today from Instagram about the father wound.
Speaker: Oh,
Speaker: Say more about that.
Speaker: So to summarize it the best that I can on the spot, which I love doing.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: That's your favorite thing.
Speaker: You're so welcome for this opportunity for growth.
Speaker: It's basically the shame and feelings of inadequacy that a father passes down with
Speaker: to the next generation because when their children brush up against their insecurity and their inadequacy, they respond by...
Speaker: withdrawing or being explosive.
Speaker: And then it just perpetuates the cycle.
Speaker: So Justin Baldoni talks about that in boys will be good humans.
Speaker: And I'm sure that means he's talked, he talked about it in man enough also, but he really examines it more from that parenting angle in this book for the kids, which I really appreciate because it helps us kind of put, paint a clear picture in our minds of like,
Speaker: It's not, it's a source.
Speaker: It's not an excuse.
Speaker: So then he says, the one skill that ensures relationships succeed is presented as the opposite of masculinity.
Speaker: And going back to our, if we use the definitions of masculine and feminine being feminine seeking connection and masculine seeking freedom, then that, I mean, that's pretty accurate.
Speaker: I also thought it was interesting.
Speaker: when they start talking about enoughness, we, obviously we know Justin Baldoni's stuff about man enough from his podcast and from that episode that we covered that he did with Glennon.
Speaker: And I just, I think it's so interesting to think about women are told that we are too much and men are told they're not enough.
Speaker: Why?
Speaker: patriarchy.
Speaker: I mean, I think you're right, but I still, I just... And I think that it...
Speaker: can flip-flop.
Speaker: There are other times where women are told we're not enough.
Speaker: I don't know if there are that many times where men are told that they're too much, though.
Speaker: Oh, I would say- Well, I guess when they show emotion.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: That's when they're told, nope, reel that in.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: Pack that up.
Speaker: I think about our interview that we did with Craig when he talked about
Speaker: people assuming that he was gay because he was theatrical and outspoken.
Speaker: And when I think about that stereotype of shit, one of the guys that I had been dating that is a performer and he's outgoing and he is artistic and everyone's like, oh, he must be gay.
Speaker: He's not.
Speaker: He just has some bigger personalities.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Interesting.
Speaker: I also wonder if it's a...
Speaker: Snake eating its tail sort of situation too, where because we feel like we're being told we're too much, we have to, or we or women, one party is told that they're too much.
Speaker: And so they have to make the other party seem smaller in order for themselves to feel bigger.
Speaker: It's like a defensive reaction.
Speaker: And this party over here is constantly feeling like they're not enough.
Speaker: And so they're trying to take away from the other person's enoughness.
Speaker: Yeah, it's so much easier to point in the other direction.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because you've gotten used to the advantage of not having to look at your own shit.
Speaker: Both of us, though.
Speaker: I think that's both men and women.
Speaker: And I think that's one of these issues that we're finding with quote unquote feminism is...
Speaker: How much of feminism is about equality and how much of it is about stepping on the other person to get higher?
Speaker: That's not equality.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And if that's the kind of feminism that we are living in, then I don't want a part of it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because that's not what it's about.
Speaker: I wrote down how hard it is to hold shame and connection at once.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: He said, I buy shit to avoid inadequacy.
Speaker: And that's why it's so hard when you do have to look at your own stuff.
Speaker: It's difficult to pull back the curtain and not feel shame.
Speaker: And it is very hard for shame and connection to exist at the same time.
Speaker: Which is why there is no vulnerability with shame.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It just makes you want to withdraw.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: And this – so then he goes on to say it's the armor that he puts on to protect him.
Speaker: And I have written in here, anger is the armor to protect us from grief.
Speaker: So when we think about – and I'm sure we've talked about this in the past.
Speaker: When we think about what is the one emotion that men are allowed to show, it's anger.
Speaker: But his anger even and emotion.
Speaker: Yeah, we're still waiting, you guys.
Speaker: We were hoping you were going to answer that one for us.
Speaker: Yeah, like, come on.
Speaker: We need some help.
Speaker: We can't do all this work for you.
Speaker: What kind of relationship is this?
Speaker: So if men are socialized...
Speaker: to ignore all those other feelings only embrace anger as brian talks about with his experience in the military he says i've served with many many wonderful women so i don't want to discredit them but there is a
Speaker: There are more men in military than women.
Speaker: And there's kind of a culture of masculinity.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And when you think about it, if masculinity is seeking freedom, then yeah, of course the military is going to be.
Speaker: And I don't know if freedom is quite the right word, but it's almost like.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Security.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: To be the protector.
Speaker: The protector.
Speaker: That's how you prove yourself.
Speaker: But you don't protect by connecting.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: You protect by eliminating whatever threat there is.
Speaker: Eliminating the threat.
Speaker: There you go.
Speaker: So he says, I think men are drawn to the military because we are natural, because we're socialized to be, to withstand discomfort.
Speaker: I beg to fucking differ.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think maybe men are encouraged to withstand a certain kind of discomfort through disembodiment.
Speaker: But men are not encouraged to have difficult conversations or uncomfortable conversations, especially when it has to do with feelings.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that, dear reader, is a huge issue.
Speaker: It's...
Speaker: Not that men are conditioned to do hard things.
Speaker: It's that men are conditioned to not think about the hard things that they have to do.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That's right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's even somehow they've branded that as a bonus.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like that's preferably in positions of power.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: They will argue that women are too emotional or they feel too many things.
Speaker: That it clouds our judgment or ability to make decisions.
Speaker: I will say, like we've talked before, we don't perform specific surgeries, most surgeries, without anesthesia.
Speaker: However, too much anesthesia and your patient dies.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So it's not this one-size-fits-all solution.
Speaker: You can't automate it.
Speaker: You can only use that skill in certain situations and really under the most dire of situations.
Speaker: I know a lot of places try to do these with the least amount of anesthesia or numbing pain medication as possible.
Speaker: Unless it's a... Well, never mind.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: I'm not going to get on that tangent.
Speaker: That was something that he had said that I really wanted to speak to because there's a difference between that.
Speaker: And it might sound like... Trial.
Speaker: Splitting hairs or semantics, but I think we've established words matter.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And we've also established that many times...
Speaker: We misunderstand each other because you have one definition of a word and the person that you're communicating with has a totally different definition of a word.
Speaker: It's all based on your context, where you come from.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: The next thing that we talked about, the armor, masculine and feminine laws of attraction, partner wants more connection.
Speaker: Okay, I love it.
Speaker: Where he was like, and sometimes I'm capable of doing that.
Speaker: I'll take mushrooms and
Speaker: for a day and I'll spend the whole day with her and I'm very affectionate.
Speaker: I'm very in my body.
Speaker: And all I'm hearing is this person has to use mushrooms to re embody themselves.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Which is not to say like a bad thing, but this is true.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: When you spend your life disembodying, the process of remembering often requires a lot of
Speaker: outside influence because you've learned so well how to build up those walls and maintain those separations between the joints that you need a joint to remember.
Speaker: And you know, as someone who is not particularly good at that brand of disembodiment, because with my fearful or fearful, anxious tendencies, I
Speaker: Do you have any thoughts to add on that?
Speaker: About feeling disembodied?
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Or feeling more connected, more in your feminine.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Do you find that you need some sort of support for that?
Speaker: I mean, everything can be a drug.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And so it just depends on what is the quote unquote drug that unlocks that for you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think it's a specific kind of drug.
Speaker: Not all drugs do all the same things, right?
Speaker: So some drugs might numb, some drugs might
Speaker: make us more task oriented or focused.
Speaker: Some are going to increase dopamine.
Speaker: Some are going to decrease adrenaline.
Speaker: What is it that we need to feel more embodied?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: If by being embodied, we're cutting down on our-
Speaker: boundary, not boundaries, on our defenses.
Speaker: For me, it's more about what needs to be removed than what needs to be added.
Speaker: For me, it needs to be a removal of distractions because like all of us, I have a finite amount of energy and there are so many things that
Speaker: that require my energy with or without my consent.
Speaker: It's just factual that I don't always have energy left to spend on connecting to my partner.
Speaker: But you can't connect to your partner until you connect to your own body.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then sometimes that's the last bit of gas in the tank.
Speaker: If I connect my body so I can fall asleep.
Speaker: Connect it to myself.
Speaker: And then it's like, well, that's all we've got time for today.
Speaker: Try again tomorrow.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Try.
Speaker: God.
Speaker: And how can a partner support that?
Speaker: Try.
Speaker: That's just a... I mean...
Speaker: To the best of our abilities.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Splitting the physical labor and the invisible labor of a household.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So that the other person has, or at least our cups are being refilled throughout the day.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: I had on here, all the best feedback I've ever gotten in the world is from a woman who was trying to love me.
Speaker: Oh, I think I must have missed that.
Speaker: Really?
Speaker: I thought that that one would be in both print.
Speaker: Like a get out of my head.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Man.
Speaker: We'll say more about that then.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I just think that's interesting.
Speaker: And that seems to ring pretty true.
Speaker: I mean, not every woman in a man's life
Speaker: is giving him guidance or advice out of the pure goodness of her heart.
Speaker: I mean, there are motives and there might be an agenda.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But... Oh, I am starting to remember this because that's when he talks about the different breakups that he's been through.
Speaker: Yeah, I do remember him talking about that.
Speaker: That's right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think he's saying that the women who have been in his life, whether it worked out or not...
Speaker: They were a pretty good barometer of where he was at and where he maybe had some work to do.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I, and.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: He talks about sometimes that creates this resentment at the partner who exhibits the thing that we, that we are lacking or that we can't do it because you're, he's, we're drawn to people who balance us out and have that thing that we're missing.
Speaker: He says, there's a reason why I'm with my wife and not with my buddy Tate.
Speaker: Like,
Speaker: Because she has these aspects of her personality that I'm missing.
Speaker: It's so hard to align on the right things, but then also balance each other on the other things.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because you can't, that's the choose every day.
Speaker: You have to be aware of the fact that that's going to be your battle and you can't automate that part of it.
Speaker: And I think at least in my relationships, maybe...
Speaker: I tried to align on the wrong things.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I have trouble figuring out.
Speaker: They talk about radical acceptance.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And I have trouble figuring out where radical acceptance becomes settling.
Speaker: See, that's really interesting because my point about radical acceptance, where he says radical acceptance of our partners, that doesn't include violation of boundaries.
Speaker: It's not about abuse and we're not abusing our partners.
Speaker: What I said was be careful because that radical acceptance, you can't take back.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: But it could also be, you also have to be careful because it could be settling.
Speaker: What is, yeah.
Speaker: How do you know when radical acceptance is in service to the good of yourself and your relationship?
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Versus when it is creating toxicity.
Speaker: I suspect it has something to do with, does that radical acceptance require you to abandon your own boundary?
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Is this a, and not just a boundary of a, oh, that makes me feel icky boundary, but a core need.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You got to have a really good understanding of what a boundary is meant to be.
Speaker: Oh my God.
Speaker: Because if you go around thinking a boundary is just something that makes me uncomfortable and that's it.
Speaker: We're looking at you, Jonah Hill.
Speaker: Definitely only at Jonah Hill, not at anyone else that I fucking know.
Speaker: That ain't it.
Speaker: You're not going to get anywhere.
Speaker: You're going to keep following the same cycle and the same pattern of choosing the same people over and over and over again because you're not looking at yourself.
Speaker: You're assuming that the flaw or the...
Speaker: issue is in your partner and rather than looking at yourself and with curiosity and going, okay, so this very clearly makes me uncomfortable.
Speaker: Why is it that that makes me uncomfortable?
Speaker: Is it because it's a core need or is it because it's something about myself that I need to challenge and learn and grow through?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: that's so hard.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's so much easier to look at everybody else and try to encourage them to grow.
Speaker: It's a lot easier.
Speaker: And focus on their growth and support them and love them through their growth and be so invested in their growth that you don't have to look at yours because then you don't have to do any work.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I would like to hear from the women when he said all of the best advice I've ever gotten was from women.
Speaker: I would like to know from them
Speaker: how good they are at guiding themselves towards their own growth.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So that is a fair point because he does talk about one of the, one of the relationships that he was in where it was, it was pretty abusive, like emotionally and verbally abusive.
Speaker: She would say things to him and about him.
Speaker: to hurt his feelings but there was like a little bit of truth in them and i think that's when we get to this resentment at the partner who exhibits what we can't do if she is having a strong reaction if one partner is saying these really extreme intense hurtful things to the other person that are sort of based in truth it's it's a double-edged sword it's that person has to be able to look and go oh i'm having a strong reaction
Speaker: To this thing that I'm saying, not only is it true for them, but what is it true about it for me?
Speaker: Because if we don't, that's when we are, it's a good clue, I think, maybe that we are sitting with some resentment.
Speaker: That anger that's really about our own insecurity or our own fear of not enoughness or too muchness.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And why is it okay for you to be able to do that but not me?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It gets so easy to turn a relationship into a scoreboard.
Speaker: And who's –
Speaker: doing more or who is racking up more points, who is winning, who needs to pull more weight.
Speaker: It's just so easy to look at it.
Speaker: From the binary like that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And like we're adversaries.
Speaker: God, which is the best way to ruin your fucking team.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: You know, this does tie in, though, with you can't create chaos in the lives of others and expect peace in yours.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: That quote that we had at the beginning.
Speaker: Because you can't heal from your own shit if you are continuing to perpetuate that shit on other people.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And other people aren't going to be able to heal their shit if you don't heal yours.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Well, and he said everything that is in your life is there because you said yes to it.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: And Mark was like, initially he was like, I think that's, he was like, I have a very strong reaction to that, which is fuck that.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Which is ding, ding, ding.
Speaker: How dare you?
Speaker: We found a clue.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And I think that can bring me back to a point that they made earlier in the episode when Brian is talking about this disagreement or misunderstanding that he and his partner had, which by the way, his partner is Sylvie Caucasian and she is Caucasian.
Speaker: Sylvie Caucasian.
Speaker: She is a fantastic person.
Speaker: expert on attachment and relational awareness.
Speaker: I follow her on multiple multimedia social media platforms.
Speaker: It's so interesting when you get a peek at how these people relationship in the wild.
Speaker: Yeah, right.
Speaker: Like you have all this expertise and
Speaker: But you go home and you're a human being just like anybody else.
Speaker: Knowing that these things are traps doesn't always keep you from falling in them anyway.
Speaker: You have an amygdala just like everybody else.
Speaker: You're not special.
Speaker: You're not special.
Speaker: You are not fucking special.
Speaker: There is no those who can't do teach.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: You have to be able to do it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it's going to be hard.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: But you need it just as much as everyone else.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: He talks about we laugh at these differences when they're brought up, brought to consciousness.
Speaker: And he said the differences aren't the issue.
Speaker: And this is what we talked about.
Speaker: The differences aren't the issue.
Speaker: It's the trying to solve them.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That creates problems in relationships.
Speaker: Because then again, it's not balance.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: It's...
Speaker: conformity and distortion.
Speaker: And then somebody, you can't help but play that comparison game of who's pulling their own weight because y'all can only pull the same weight.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: There is no other side of that.
Speaker: There is no someone picking up the slack in an area that we're just, it's just, we have a finite amount of energy and that's not a gift that we're given.
Speaker: That's not an excuse or a cop out.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: But we need
Speaker: All kinds of kinds.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I guess a good practice would be when I'm sitting with all the things about my partner that I don't like.
Speaker: Which there are so very few, Justin.
Speaker: I'm sure of it.
Speaker: She can't even think of a single one right now.
Speaker: If I challenge myself to also ask at what times or in what situations do those things benefit us or our relationship?
Speaker: That's an empathy tool.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: It also makes me think about how a lot of times when we're doing that and we're keeping score like that, it's because we're coming from a place of scarcity.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: And that's not super helpful for anyone.
Speaker: And also, though, when you are a human being with a finite amount of energy, scarcity does feel...
Speaker: Like it's real.
Speaker: Because it is real.
Speaker: Because it's not a complete figment of our imagination.
Speaker: Sort of real.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's just that it's the magnitude with which we've been told to pay attention to it is imbalanced.
Speaker: And so many of the things that we think quote unquote have to get done, this is certainly true for me.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: Thank goodness you didn't fall out of your chair just then.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: It's because I'm seat buckled in.
Speaker: I'm not really.
Speaker: But maybe those things don't.
Speaker: Have to get done with a capital H. What happens, Emily, if you go upstairs and there's a Little Debbie Christmas tree hostess cake wrapper on the floor of the kitchen?
Speaker: What happens?
Speaker: I'll throw it away.
Speaker: And what, but what if it, what if it just sits on the kitchen floor?
Speaker: But see, this is where it takes practice because I could walk away from it, but I'm not going to be present for my partner or anybody else.
Speaker: I'm going to be thinking about that wrapper that's on my kitchen floor.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Because what, what happens with, what is that wrapper doing on the kitchen floor, Emily?
Speaker: I think we almost need a different analogy.
Speaker: You're like, hi, you're not my therapist.
Speaker: Well, no, but I think we need something bigger because, I mean, it takes a second or two for me to pick up the wrapper and throw it away.
Speaker: But what is it doing if you don't?
Speaker: It would need to be something like the mess downstairs.
Speaker: Because if I were sitting there being driven crazy by a wrapper on the floor, the logical thing would be take the two seconds, pick it up, and throw it away.
Speaker: But when it's something that is not easily fixed, like –
Speaker: It's Christmas.
Speaker: We hosted at our house.
Speaker: Everything got wrecked.
Speaker: Spaces that I didn't even know could get destroyed in my house got destroyed in my house.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: And I have to decide, okay, am I going to spend time with my family on Christmas?
Speaker: Or am I going to start cleaning up the mess, which feels so good.
Speaker: You guys, it's my drug.
Speaker: I love it so much.
Speaker: I wonder what it is about being present in the mess.
Speaker: It's control.
Speaker: I know exactly what it is.
Speaker: It's control.
Speaker: I have control over whether or not the shoes are in the shoe basket.
Speaker: I don't feel like I have control over very much else.
Speaker: Oh, God, yeah.
Speaker: But I can control that.
Speaker: I'm still trying to move past the fact that a wrapper on the – because I do know that
Speaker: That would bother you.
Speaker: I can't get past that for myself, which is not necessarily a good thing.
Speaker: It would explain a lot about what you see when you're walking my house.
Speaker: But I still, and I love that you said the logical thing is just to just pick it up and throw it away.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I couldn't be further on the opposite end because for me, I'm like, why wouldn't you just pick it up and throw it away?
Speaker: Because it's not doing anything there.
Speaker: It's just sitting there.
Speaker: But isn't there part of you that knows that sooner or later you're going to have to pick it up and throw it away?
Speaker: See, and I think this is my- Eventually.
Speaker: I think this is some weird ADHD shit for me because I'm not motivated to do that until it's time to do that.
Speaker: Why would I do that right now?
Speaker: So when is it time?
Speaker: How do you know when the time has come to throw the wrapper away?
Speaker: Well, that would involve some sort of self-trust.
Speaker: And so that is something that I'm not terribly good at.
Speaker: You are dealing with control.
Speaker: Not that I'm not dealing with control, but most of my control stems from a lack of self-trust.
Speaker: Well, if I do have ADHD, which is undiagnosed, but I have suspicions, then for me, I think it is a lot of, it's fear driven.
Speaker: Because if I don't stay on top of everything, then it would be very easy for things to just totally get away from me.
Speaker: And then I would just feel bad.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I couldn't get out.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Which I think is probably why that there's an anxiety and depression cycle.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Because for me, the depression definitely drives up when my anxiety has created.
Speaker: where my anxiety gets high when my depression has been active for a while and all of those things pile up on me and I just can't get to the top of it.
Speaker: And then it's just this very vicious cycle of silent, invisible cycle that no one sees because it's all going on in my head.
Speaker: And for me, society praises people for having their clean house.
Speaker: Cloudliness is next to godliness.
Speaker: But it is almost...
Speaker: hang in there with me, folks.
Speaker: I'm not saying these things are the same, but I'm saying there are similarities between that and being someone with an eating disorder because it's all about control.
Speaker: And you get reinforced from society and people who tell you, oh, good for you.
Speaker: You keep such a clean house.
Speaker: How do you do it?
Speaker: Oh, look at you.
Speaker: You're so thin.
Speaker: You're maintaining this ideal standard.
Speaker: Look at all that self-control you have.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that's kind of the – that's achievement culture in and of itself is we praise these high achievers.
Speaker: It's capitalism.
Speaker: It's capitalism, baby.
Speaker: The more you produce –
Speaker: Or the more you exhibit qualities that demonstrate you have the propensity to be a good producer, the more valuable you are.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And you're right.
Speaker: I mean, those things are arbitrary.
Speaker: It doesn't matter if the cupcake wrapper is on the floor or not.
Speaker: Except that we live in a society that has made that one of the rules.
Speaker: Well, and let's be real though.
Speaker: You can't keep the cupcake wrappers on the floor all the time.
Speaker: And like you mentioned, it's easier to pick up the one wrapper while there's just one wrapper than it is to wait till there's fucking 50 wrappers on the floor and you're swimming through crumbs and of...
Speaker: Hostess case, I see you disassociating right now as I say that.
Speaker: I'm blacking out.
Speaker: But it's easy.
Speaker: You guys, she did.
Speaker: She kind of got a little glazed.
Speaker: Is it hot in here?
Speaker: She got a glazed look in her eye.
Speaker: It was very scary.
Speaker: Are these walls closing in?
Speaker: Try.
Speaker: It's easier to pick up the one.
Speaker: It's just, it's balance.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because if we're too focused on doing the one thing, then we can't be present for the other thing.
Speaker: But then if we're too present for the other thing.
Speaker: Try.
Speaker: Try.
Speaker: Then we're not doing the one thing.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: We're all fucked.
Speaker: The world did argue.
Speaker: Oh, wait.
Speaker: No, we are all going to die someday.
Speaker: I do want to say, this feels like a good time to mention this.
Speaker: Something that I am going to try, which is going to be extremely hard for me, and I'm not going to do this very well, at least for a while.
Speaker: I'm so excited.
Speaker: I may not ever do it well, and I may give up on it.
Speaker: I'm excited.
Speaker: I have been reading a lot about the importance of not only teaching your kids to pick up after themselves, but teaching them to notice the mess.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: Without just saying, hey, pick your clothes up off the floor, teaching them to notice there are clothes on the floor.
Speaker: Those belong in the laundry basket.
Speaker: I'm going to put those in the laundry.
Speaker: Because when you
Speaker: Teach your children to just wait to be instructed to do something.
Speaker: You're not teaching them anything about carrying any sort of the invisible labor that it takes to run a house.
Speaker: This is how you end up with an entire population of people who think that their partner's job is to give them a list.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Well, if you just told me what you needed help with, I don't fucking need help.
Speaker: We need to do this together.
Speaker: My kids.
Speaker: It was my responsibility.
Speaker: My children think that we live in the Beauty and the Beast Palace.
Speaker: And at night, all of the appliances come to life and clean up after them because that must be what happens.
Speaker: How else?
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: How else do all of those things that we got out get put away?
Speaker: But because I have a finite amount of energy –
Speaker: I know that it takes less energy for me to do it myself than it takes for me to have to get on their back about cleaning up after themselves.
Speaker: That's like that boss that I had that would never train me on how to do anything because he could just do it himself.
Speaker: But then he would get mad at me for not knowing how to do anything.
Speaker: And I would be like, you never fucking showed me.
Speaker: He was like, well, if I had to show –
Speaker: I can't know better if you don't tell me what's better.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But it is.
Speaker: It is still – it's making me think about do you want to spend your emotional labor in small little chunks for the rest of your life?
Speaker: Or do you want to make a big deposit that will – it's like investing.
Speaker: That will pay off in dividends.
Speaker: Or are you just –
Speaker: spending little bits here and here and here and here without having any kind of checking account versus a savings account.
Speaker: I may have to wait.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: I may have to wait until my mental health baseline is at a little bit healthier place.
Speaker: Because right now, I don't know if you guys know this, the world is really scary and very depressing.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Oh, and it's still only October.
Speaker: This may not be the time.
Speaker: Yeah, this might not be the moment.
Speaker: But you know what?
Speaker: For me to do an overhaul of my coping strategies.
Speaker: Yes, and we're not going to let you set yourself up for failure.
Speaker: I wonder if there's a way for you to do that, and I'm sure that you're already doing that in small pieces.
Speaker: I am looking...
Speaker: for opportunities with varying degrees of success.
Speaker: No one's asking you to run a marathon right now.
Speaker: We're just asking to see if you can stand up for a few seconds.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But if you don't try standing up.
Speaker: I'm just like a little baby giraffe.
Speaker: I'm just a little bubbly.
Speaker: We are attracted to that which we have resisted or disowned in ourselves.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I don't know if I totally believe this.
Speaker: I a thousand percent believe this.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Talk me into believing this.
Speaker: Because it is attachment theory.
Speaker: It is childhood wounding, caregiver wounding.
Speaker: For example, in that one relationship she won't shut the fuck up about.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I had a therapy session where I was sitting with dear sweet Laura and talking about a relationship dynamic that was modeled for me and who I identified with most in that archetype.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: And then I looked at the partner that I was with at the time and the issues that we were having at the time.
Speaker: And I was like, oh my God.
Speaker: All of those things that I'm not because it doesn't come naturally to me.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: That person is.
Speaker: And that is why I'm drawn to them.
Speaker: And it's because my attachment wound is trying to live out this sequence and fix it and heal it.
Speaker: So of course I'm going to be attracted to the things that maybe I haven't consciously disowned or maybe I have because I've seen how those attributes affect people.
Speaker: And I say, I'm not going to be like that.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That's hurtful or that that's dismissive or whatever.
Speaker: And I'm not going to be like that.
Speaker: When maybe with some perspective and some generosity,
Speaker: understanding why those attributes are good.
Speaker: Maybe you don't need to wear your heart on your sleeve all the fucking time and tell everybody everything you're thinking all the time and let everyone have access to all of your emotions.
Speaker: No wonder we're so bad at this, all of us.
Speaker: Because so what we're saying, I think, is that you are attracted to the things about your partner that
Speaker: that are the opposite of you.
Speaker: And then you get in relationship with your partner and immediately start trying to repair all of those things and rebuild and make all of your traits match my traits.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Because it's not about accepting or looking at ourselves and seeing what am I lacking and how do I grow that?
Speaker: It's about chopping off rather than remembering.
Speaker: And that constant, that tension and discomfort, if we're not conscious of it and mindful of it, then creates this push-pull dynamic that is so famous for the avoidant and anxiously attached couple.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Man, this is hard work.
Speaker: Yeah, this is...
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Speaking – there is so much magic in speaking it out loud.
Speaker: Because I've written these – I've even – I've spelled these thoughts on paper.
Speaker: But when you say them out loud, that's that embodying.
Speaker: That's the – all of the senses you're using, you're physically, you're audibly, your brain is using it.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: It's a lot.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, it's pulling it towards your prefrontal cortex and out of your amygdala.
Speaker: When I am activated in my relationship, all of those things exist in my brain, but I'm not accessing any of them.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: They might as well be.
Speaker: Just like we said about Sylvia.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Is that her name?
Speaker: Sylvie.
Speaker: Sylvie.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Knowing these things doesn't inherently make us any better at practicing them.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's almost like we actually, we can't automate it.
Speaker: It's like when you're trying to fix something in your refrigerator and you have the manual, but you just try to do it without ever opening the manual.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Which is a characteristic...
Speaker: of which traditional binary.
Speaker: Oh my gosh.
Speaker: He's going to feel so called out, but I can't help it.
Speaker: So Raleigh got one of those inflatable costumes and it has a fan that attaches to the costume.
Speaker: And my beloved partner,
Speaker: set it down in front of me.
Speaker: It was just trying to be more masculine for you.
Speaker: Had looked at it for probably an hour, I don't know how long, and fumbled around with it.
Speaker: And the directions were sitting face up on the counter, right in front of me.
Speaker: I didn't have to look for them.
Speaker: They were right there.
Speaker: And there was this little part that you have to unscrew off the fan.
Speaker: I'm sorry, Justin.
Speaker: I'm not laughing.
Speaker: Put it onto the fabric of the costume and then close it so that it will stay on.
Speaker: And he never looked at the instructions.
Speaker: They were six inches from his fingertips.
Speaker: Because what does the patriarchy or society socialize little boys to be?
Speaker: Sure of themselves.
Speaker: not right, sure of themselves.
Speaker: It doesn't matter if what you, if you have the right formula, as long as you can sell it that you are 100% confident.
Speaker: But here's the interesting thing.
Speaker: There's...
Speaker: a branch of that where you can be unsure of yourself and it's still not okay to look at the manual, but it is okay to ask your female counterpart.
Speaker: That's division of labor.
Speaker: And that makes a little bit of sense.
Speaker: But also when Justin and Glennon were talking about it, not your Justin, but the other Justin.
Speaker: We're talking about it.
Speaker: It's never okay to recognize that you're wrong or that you don't know.
Speaker: It's never okay to acknowledge that you don't know.
Speaker: So you just make it somebody else's problem.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I should say... You're not asking for help.
Speaker: You're just making it someone else's problem.
Speaker: I should say that I didn't get to the point where I figured out how to attach this fan.
Speaker: Picked up the directions off the counter.
Speaker: And as soon as I held them up, before I had even read through them, he looked at them and went, oh, I get it now.
Speaker: And opened it up and attached.
Speaker: And it was like.
Speaker: It's almost like object permanence.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: It's like Dumbledore and that ring.
Speaker: Oh my God.
Speaker: It's like he couldn't touch the instructions because they would have cursed him.
Speaker: But if I absorb the impact of touching them and holding them up.
Speaker: How much of that do you think is that he... Then he can absorb their power.
Speaker: He was so concentrated on the mission that he...
Speaker: doesn't realize where his, what his surroundings are.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That goes back to something he was talking about.
Speaker: Brian was talking about with complete the mission.
Speaker: They were packing to go to this trip and she comes out and says, I'm sad.
Speaker: And he's like, okay, keep packing.
Speaker: Because the mission was we need to pack.
Speaker: But he was so focused on the mission that he missed the,
Speaker: The environment that he was in.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And then it becomes a completely different mission.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I have to say that there are times where I'm definitely more like Brian in that way.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know what?
Speaker: I think that's a great example of we contain both.
Speaker: We do.
Speaker: With us.
Speaker: We do.
Speaker: Brian says one question that he gets a lot is how do you get your partner to do the work?
Speaker: To recognize the problem?
Speaker: You can't.
Speaker: Well, not if you're leaning into radical acceptance.
Speaker: Well, and you can't force or make anyone to do anything.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: The person has to be motivated themselves to see that there is an issue and be as...
Speaker: Disadvantaged by it.
Speaker: Is that the right word?
Speaker: Inconvenienced.
Speaker: As you are.
Speaker: And if that person isn't recognizing.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Or doesn't see any inconvenience to this dynamic situation.
Speaker: They're never going to want to change.
Speaker: And that's where our lizard brain goes, well, then I'm going to make an inconvenience buster.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So then you want inconvenience.
Speaker: Watch how inconvenient this can be.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So then he goes, stop pretending something works for you when it doesn't.
Speaker: This is when we stop pretending that this dynamic doesn't bother me.
Speaker: Then we can be honest about what our needs are, our boundaries are.
Speaker: We can listen to what our partner's needs and boundaries are, but we have to do it in a way that doesn't obligate them to change.
Speaker: It's an invitation, not an obligation.
Speaker: He says it's an invitation to change.
Speaker: Relational pain, staying drives you, creates more disconnection and disembodiment.
Speaker: Choosing them should be choosing you.
Speaker: A win for you is a win for me.
Speaker: I think that they were talking about how do you know when to walk away?
Speaker: And if our...
Speaker: goals in life are trial completely opposite choosing you is never going to be choosing me and choosing me is never going to be choosing you so you can't make your partner do the work and if you're trying to make them do the work then then you guys don't have the same goal right trial i hate that we'd like to see to speak to the manager please
Speaker: I am starting to think that this fucking manager is avoiding me.
Speaker: And as someone with an abandonment wound, I don't appreciate that.
Speaker: Okay, there's something I really want to get to.
Speaker: And that is this.
Speaker: They talk about how we code the person who doesn't want connection as dysfunctional.
Speaker: And if the person that doesn't want connection...
Speaker: if we are equating that or drawing a parallel of that to the masculinity, then that codes the men as the problem.
Speaker: But then if you're out there trying to figure out what as a man or as someone who knows that their issue or that what is preventing them, their challenge is this hesitance towards connection,
Speaker: Who's more likely, I mean, and they talk about who's going to be more likely to be seeking out information on how to improve your life.
Speaker: Someone who's wanting connection or someone who's not.
Speaker: It's going to be the one wanting connection.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so all of your resources or the majority of your resources are directed towards that.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Anxious attachment style.
Speaker: And this is something that I, this is a conversation I had with someone who was at the time trying to do the work as an avoidant.
Speaker: And.
Speaker: his frustration with, I can't find anything for me.
Speaker: And honestly, honestly, in this fucking moment, the shot heard around the world this past spring that we were contributing to the gatekeeping of mental health for men was because out of their, I think,
Speaker: was out of their frustration that I had all these tools available that they didn't.
Speaker: And that it was really easy for me to talk about my attachment wound because I was being catered to.
Speaker: And that misplaced anger and frustration being put on me.
Speaker: That's not revolutionary to me, but it does...
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Why do I even care, though?
Speaker: Why is that important for me to know?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Why do I need more empathy for this person?
Speaker: I fucking don't.
Speaker: That's not how I read it coming from you, though.
Speaker: I just read it as you're trying to understand something that you have a lot of questions around.
Speaker: Yeah, and it does help make it less personal.
Speaker: It's not about me.
Speaker: It wasn't about me.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: Because we said that when it was Glennon talking to Justin Baldoni and she was saying, I need to be able to at least ask enough questions to feel satisfied with my unknowing.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And I think that that's something that's really important for us to be aware of is... Trial.
Speaker: If most of the relational information and help is directed towards one party, then the other party is being set up for failure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's interesting because there are... If the avoidant style is the yearning for freedom and individuality, there are lots of books and lots of literature about that.
Speaker: But how do you write...
Speaker: a guide for the avoidant attachment style that resonates for them and feels authentic to them that is about connecting in a relationship.
Speaker: If that is almost the definitive thing that they are rejecting that makes them, if their defining quality is their yearning for individuality and freedom,
Speaker: How do you effectively write a guide for them about connecting and relationship that doesn't feel patronizing?
Speaker: Is that really their yearning, their instinctual yearning?
Speaker: Because if it was, they would be satisfied.
Speaker: If they're lacking that, that's when they're dissatisfied.
Speaker: It's just recognizing that that's what I need.
Speaker: And now how do I...
Speaker: get myself to a place where I'm willing to start getting uncomfortable and sitting in that discomfort long enough to open myself up to that connection.
Speaker: But if we're operating from the assumption that this is just who I am, I'm just a freedom type person.
Speaker: I'm perfectly happy.
Speaker: I need freedom.
Speaker: I need to be isolated.
Speaker: I need to be on my own island.
Speaker: I just need to be by myself.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: If that's what you needed, then why aren't you happy?
Speaker: Yeah, I think what I'm working out is maybe.
Speaker: I'm not saying that there is as much literature for that style of person.
Speaker: I mean, it's me.
Speaker: I'm talking about me.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So I'm not attacking a population that I don't belong to.
Speaker: I can see how it is a lot harder for...
Speaker: those of us who are avoidant attachment styles to recognize what has been written for us.
Speaker: Because when you read something about being in a relationship, maybe that gut instinct is to reject it right out of the gate.
Speaker: So maybe it's not that those things aren't out there.
Speaker: Maybe it's that we're just not – yeah.
Speaker: Well, and they feel inauthentic and patronizing.
Speaker: And if your instinctual response to the ick is, to now, unsafe, of course that's not for me.
Speaker: It's not my love language.
Speaker: So you also have to go into it with an open heart and really be seeking the answers.
Speaker: And you can only –
Speaker: belong to whatever label whatever identity as much as you belong to yourself and if you're not ready to accept the part of yourself that is yearning for connection you still believe that you're an island then you're not going to be at all interested in any material having to do with building bridges
Speaker: And maybe this goes back to then that's reflecting to us what we don't have.
Speaker: We're attracted to the people who exhibit these qualities of these characteristics that we reject in ourselves.
Speaker: So then we have that person bringing up and pointing out these flaws or problems or patterns or cycles that we're not necessarily wanting to see, but then...
Speaker: A lot of times, so you had mentioned off the air that you thought when they said, wow, it's really surprising that most divorces are initiated by women.
Speaker: Oh, sweetie.
Speaker: Oh, sweetie.
Speaker: Who is surprised by that?
Speaker: Not a single woman in this room.
Speaker: 70% is the figure.
Speaker: And they talked about because sometimes...
Speaker: The breakup is what creates the catalyst for the person to change.
Speaker: And that person highlighting this shit, bringing it to your consciousness, and then cutting you off from them as a escape or scapegoat,
Speaker: Creates this wound, this pain, this grief that if you're grateful for it, you can use it as a tool to grow.
Speaker: And that's gratitude.
Speaker: That's grateful for grief.
Speaker: That breakups are the most painful sea of wisdom.
Speaker: Dialectics.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Beauty, because of, in spite of.
Speaker: in conjunction with pain.
Speaker: I'm paraphrasing this, but they referenced Francis Weller.
Speaker: Yes, I have that name written down.
Speaker: And so I did about 20 seconds of looking him up on the internet, but I saw a quote of his where he said, and maybe he's not the only person to say this, but love and grief are sisters.
Speaker: And.
Speaker: Well, yes, because what is grief?
Speaker: It's so.
Speaker: They're just.
Speaker: They're not love.
Speaker: With nowhere to go.
Speaker: Inextricably linked.
Speaker: All the unexpressed love I never had.
Speaker: Fuck.
Speaker: They're like twin sisters and just maybe not identical twins.
Speaker: They're like.
Speaker: They're like.
Speaker: Conjoined sisters.
Speaker: So much so.
Speaker: But I don't think that's wrong.
Speaker: I think that that's actually legit because you don't get one without the other.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: You really don't.
Speaker: And if you think that it's love and it is absent of any kind of grief, then it is not love.
Speaker: It's probably infatuation or obsession.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Well, I don't know how I'm going to top that.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Do you have any final thoughts?
Speaker: Oh, I don't think I do.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: I don't think I do.
Speaker: I'm looking through my notes.
Speaker: I think we checked all the boxes.
Speaker: I think I said all the how very dare you's that I needed to say.
Speaker: I think my final thought for this is just that we are only treating one half of the problem, of the wound,
Speaker: If we're only focusing on educating, empowering, and healing women.
Speaker: And if we are unwilling to accept the truth that men have problems that are different from women, then we are unwilling to actually get to mutual liberation.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that is our job as humans and people who love men and all other humans to be as passionate about the other side of the coin as they are their own.
Speaker: I think it helps so much to describe these things as attachment styles versus...
Speaker: masculine or feminine.
Speaker: I love this defining the energies as connection and security.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think that eliminates a lot of baggage.
Speaker: I think, yeah.
Speaker: I think I'm going to try to start adopting that as a common practice and starting to equate
Speaker: masculine rather than, and this is Justin Baldoni and toxic masculinity.
Speaker: He's like, there is no such thing as toxic masculinity because, because what you're seeing is just toxicity.
Speaker: What you're seeing is just unhealthy.
Speaker: It's just shitty.
Speaker: Like masculinity isn't that it's security.
Speaker: It's being able to provide security, seeking and being on the side of liberation.
Speaker: It's liberation.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And women are just as involved in liberation as men.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And men are just as involved in connection.
Speaker: Eliminating the gendered language around it is a really good first step.
Speaker: You do that.
Speaker: I'm going to leave some cupcake wrappers on the floor.
Speaker: We're doing the Lord's work.
Speaker: Listen, if we did that whole house swap thing, you would die, but you would learn your fucking lesson.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: About clutter and mess.
Speaker: And I would probably be just super happy because I would start from a clean slate.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I, I just, now we're just, I want to slam the door on that idea right now.
Speaker: I can't full blown panic.
Speaker: The room is spinning.
Speaker: I thought I saw her disassociate earlier.
Speaker: I think my other, my final, final thought is this.
Speaker: When we remember both that multiple things can be true.
Speaker: One, that we contain both the masculine and feminine within each of us.
Speaker: And two, we do not.
Speaker: Trial.
Speaker: Our survival is not linked to our ability to conform to the same skill set as all the people around us.
Speaker: That is how you become a body.
Speaker: And I think that is what I'm going to really be taking away from this episode is thinking about how.
Speaker: It's the differences that bring us together and make us so alike.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Thank you, guys.
Speaker: Thank you, Brian.
Speaker: Thank you, what was it?
Speaker: Mark.
Speaker: Thank you, Justin Baldoni.
Speaker: Thank you, India.
Speaker: And thank you guys.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Thank you so much.
Speaker: We're so glad you were here.
Speaker: We hope you liked this episode.
Speaker: If you didn't like it, please give us something to read in our fricking inbox other than TikTok trying to get me to log back in and be active on there.
Speaker: You can email us at podthingspodcast at gmail.com.
Speaker: You can follow us on Instagram at wecandopodthings with underscores between the words.
Speaker: You can find our TikTok.
Speaker: It probably doesn't have a whole lot on it, but you can find it.
Speaker: And honestly, what we're just waiting for is more followers.
Speaker: So once we get some more followers on TikTok, we'll start posting more content.
Speaker: Yeah, you can be the one to get the ball rolling.
Speaker: Be the agent of change.
Speaker: And oh, you know, something else that I wanted to look up before we did this was...
Speaker: We are so honored to be able to donate $51 towards a charity supporting LGBTQIA.
Speaker: And trans rights specifically.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And when we have nailed down which organization we want to go with, we will put that on the socials.
Speaker: We thank you guys so much.
Speaker: If you guys have suggestions, please reach out to us with those.
Speaker: Let us know.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: I'm Emily.
Speaker: I'm Emily.
Speaker: And this has been We Can Do Pod Things.
Speaker: Bye.
Speaker: Bye.
