Transcript
Speaker: Hello, and welcome back to We Can Do Pod Things.
Speaker: I'm Emily.
Speaker: And I'm Annalise.
Speaker: And we're so glad that you returned to us today.
Speaker: I believe Annalise has a quote to share.
Speaker: I do.
Speaker: Hit it with, hit us with it.
Speaker: Hit us with it.
Speaker: So, this is a callback to a previous episode.
Speaker: Van Gogh's last words were, the sadness will last forever.
Speaker: He who knew the dark, he who nonetheless painted stars within it, and me who knows it too.
Speaker: And me who has nonetheless punched my fair share of holes within it and shone a flashlight through them and called them stars.
Speaker: The sadness will not last forever.
Speaker: I know because every day I bloody my knuckles in the pursuit of something I might see by.
Speaker: Those are his last words?
Speaker: Where the sadness will last forever.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: That was by Christina Marr.
Speaker: So I came across that and I was like, we're going to need to talk about that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So there you have it.
Speaker: There you have it indeed.
Speaker: Which episode were we talking about Starry Night?
Speaker: Grief.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because- That's a full circle moment.
Speaker: It is really.
Speaker: It's a truly full circle moment for us.
Speaker: And I was like, yep, that's going to have to be the quote of the week.
Speaker: So there you go.
Speaker: What do you guys think of it?
Speaker: Let us know.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Well-
Speaker: We are going to be talking today about another episode of Armchair Expert.
Speaker: This one features Jonathan Van Ness, and I wanted to add that to express our gratitude for the emotional labor that Jonathan does in this episode of Armchair Expert, which aired on Monday, September 25th, it was so inspiring and educational, so we would like to donate $1 to a trans charity for every listen that we get for this current episode of We Can Do Pod Things between now and
Speaker: and when our next episode drops.
Speaker: That's a small gesture that we can make to say thank you to JVN for being a courageous activist, even when he really shouldn't have to be.
Speaker: Amen.
Speaker: So this episode of Armchair Expert has been much talked about, very publicized, and not for great reasons necessarily.
Speaker: However, if we are looking for silver linings, it's getting people talking about some important things.
Speaker: And I think that Dax is the kind of person that is willing to hold himself accountable.
Speaker: It does seem very in line with his character.
Speaker: I have to warn you guys, I may or may not, some of this stuff that I wrote down about Dax may or may not actually be about him, and that's not fair to him.
Speaker: But he very much represents a figure with whom...
Speaker: I have had many a frustrating discussion.
Speaker: I'm glad you came to that realization because I didn't want to have to be the one to say it.
Speaker: So just so you know, on the off chance that Dax listens to this episode, he's like, damn, girl, did you really have to go that hard?
Speaker: It's not you.
Speaker: It's me.
Speaker: We're not anti-Daxers.
Speaker: We're not.
Speaker: And this, it's not about you, Dax.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: It's about somebody else.
Speaker: You just happened to open your mouth and sound a whole lot like him.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, we're going to be relying heavily on your notes because I didn't really take – I took a few, but I didn't take very many because if I had started writing about this episode, I'm not sure I would have ever stopped.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Well, the first note I have written down is where he talks about, I think Dax had interviewed Jane Fonda and said something about how do you not marry every person that you have a connection with?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: How do you have a strong connection to somebody without wanting to make it romantic?
Speaker: Yes, exactly.
Speaker: And then talking about...
Speaker: the word admiration and how maybe we don't use that word enough or we don't examine it enough.
Speaker: And he said, I want this person to love me and I know how to fuck someone.
Speaker: So therefore that's how I get this person to love me is by fucking them.
Speaker: And there's a lot there, isn't there?
Speaker: There is so much there, but it's the first note I have written down.
Speaker: And Jane Fonda was like, me too.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: She was like, I want to marry you.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: What an interesting – so maybe the – is it really love or is it just admiration?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Am I hungry or am I bored?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Oh, that actually really jives with this.
Speaker: Am I hungry or am I bored?
Speaker: Am I in need of love?
Speaker: Do I love and need this person?
Speaker: Do I – am I sexually attracted to this person?
Speaker: Do I just admire them?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: Talk fast enough, people won't have time to call you out.
Speaker: So JVN is a fast talker.
Speaker: Thank goodness we did not listen to this one on two times speed or whatever you sometimes listen to, or I think my brain would have melted out my ears.
Speaker: I would not.
Speaker: I don't know that I would have been able to go along with that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So that was a, I don't remember who said it, but one of them said, you know, if you talk fast enough,
Speaker: then people won't have time to call you out or argue with what you're saying.
Speaker: Because you've already moved on.
Speaker: Seven or eight points.
Speaker: Or you've already, whatever it is that you've said.
Speaker: Oh, excuse me.
Speaker: I think that was, it was too when he said something like kind of fucked up, like dark humor.
Speaker: They were like, if you just, and you just keep going.
Speaker: By the time you realize, oh, that was a fucked up thing.
Speaker: He's already on the next topic.
Speaker: And I wanted to add, we will be using...
Speaker: All manner of pronouns for JVN.
Speaker: JVN identifies and is affirmed through all pronouns.
Speaker: So who knows which pronouns we're going to use, but JVN is willing to accept them all.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: They mentioned the book Fresh Banana Leaves by Jessica Hernandez.
Speaker: And that's going on my reading list because I believe that one was talking about holistic medicine and the roots of the modern medicine that we have now and how it all came from some cultures, spiritual medicine tradition.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I believe, if I remember correctly, that she got her MD.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: In order to prove to people that the indigenous wisdom that she already possessed was actually rooted in science.
Speaker: That it was legitimate medicine.
Speaker: It's not to be just simply dismissed because it was spoken word passed down over generations.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Or some sort of folk medicine.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: That folk medicine is medicine.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So that's Dr. Jessica Hernandez of Fresh Banana Leaves.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Um...
Speaker: I wrote something about trade-off of hurt.
Speaker: Do you know what that means?
Speaker: Not readily.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Well, it's gone.
Speaker: Trade-off of hurt.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: I could guess.
Speaker: I could make guesses about it, but I don't know if I should do that because I don't want to assume what anybody meant when they said that or when that was woven in there.
Speaker: That's fair.
Speaker: The next thing I have written down is this is not the best option.
Speaker: I do think I know what it was.
Speaker: I think it was maybe when they were talking about psoriasis.
Speaker: Oh, yes.
Speaker: And they were talking about how JVN was saying, if it's tied to my diet, then I think I would rather just live with psoriasis.
Speaker: Yes, exactly.
Speaker: I'm just not willing to give up some of these things.
Speaker: Right, like lactose intolerant people who still eat ice cream.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, that's the trade-off for the hurt.
Speaker: Then Dax said, you know, if you have any –
Speaker: If you're familiar at all with AA or those treatment programs, you know the phrase – Everything goes out of the house.
Speaker: Well, and treating the symptoms versus treating the problem.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And JVN said, yeah, I'm only interested right now in treating the symptoms.
Speaker: I'm not trying to dig into the problem right now.
Speaker: I'm not that part of my journey.
Speaker: And you know what?
Speaker: We stan a queen who knows –
Speaker: When she's just not ready yet.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think JVN said something like, I haven't reached my psoriasis diet rock bottom.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: I think that is exactly what it was.
Speaker: We support it.
Speaker: We're here for it.
Speaker: Then is – this is when things start to get a little stressful.
Speaker: They do, but it starts relatively innocently, I think.
Speaker: Yeah, it's kind of innocuous.
Speaker: And it's just kind of like, eh, well, you know, whatever.
Speaker: JVN –
Speaker: And Dax and Monica really doesn't talk a lot in this podcast, except for when she needed to
Speaker: basically referee.
Speaker: I cannot imagine the thoughts that Monica Padman was having.
Speaker: I would love to see her Fitbit data.
Speaker: I would say probably one.
Speaker: I'm concerned.
Speaker: Oh, fuck.
Speaker: Oh, fuck.
Speaker: Oh, fuck.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because she edits the episodes.
Speaker: Oh, shit.
Speaker: So if she was working on her toes through this one, I bet her brain was all over the place.
Speaker: No doubt.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: This is where it gets meaty.
Speaker: A little meaty.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So they started talking about politics.
Speaker: And Dax disagreed that he should have had to vote for Biden as a liberal.
Speaker: Because Biden wasn't the best option.
Speaker: And I don't even think he necessarily...
Speaker: as opposed to the fact that he's going to vote for Biden.
Speaker: But I think he was saying, I don't want to feel like I've got to pretend that this person is the best candidate.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like I'm happy about this person winning because they're the best candidate when they're not.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And start to kind of get into it a little bit because JVN says, well, that's not what I said.
Speaker: I didn't say he was –
Speaker: the best he said he's not maybe he's not the best option but he's the best option that we have now and that's not the same thing if he and it to me it's very um renee brown and generosity and um this person is doing the best that they can well no i know that they can do better because i've seen them do better okay well if they could do better they would so they're doing the best that they can in this moment
Speaker: And so that is what you have to base your decision off of with their appropriateness.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That's very similar to this is, yes, of course there are better people out there for that position.
Speaker: They're not in it.
Speaker: And we can't, we don't have the luxury of working with hypotheticals.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah, I think he was starting, JVN was starting to point out that there's some level of privilege.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And he said, you know, I live in a conservative state now.
Speaker: I live in Texas.
Speaker: And if you've seen what I've seen and lived what I've lived, you will throw your support at me.
Speaker: the candidate who is going to save lives.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Period.
Speaker: And this kind of also, I wrote no perfect victim because it reminds me a lot of, um, in sexual assault trials when the victim or the survivor of the assault is,
Speaker: is not the perfect victim maybe they maybe it's what they were wearing maybe it's what they were drinking maybe it's that they were an asshole maybe they said some really shitty stuff that doesn't mean that they deserve to be assaulted whether it's sexual or physical murder victims same way like there's no such thing as a perfect victim
Speaker: And you can't be using necessarily that to make your decision because you don't – again, that's a hypothetical.
Speaker: You have to look at the facts and make a decision based on the facts.
Speaker: And he did say that it's easy for people to have these opinions in states where they're more comfortable and their rights aren't being threatened all the time.
Speaker: And he said, I will suck Joe Biden's dick.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because I'm in a mare I can.
Speaker: He is so wonderful.
Speaker: He really is.
Speaker: I had the privilege of getting to see him perform
Speaker: About a year ago.
Speaker: And he puts on such a good show.
Speaker: And then after the show, we actually got to post for a photo with him.
Speaker: He stops and takes selfies with every person who waits outside.
Speaker: I won't say that we got a good photo because for everything that he is, he's not the best photographer on the fly.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: We got a blurry photo.
Speaker: I think you should post it though.
Speaker: On our Instagram.
Speaker: I will.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Because then I tagged him and he replied, which is better than any photo.
Speaker: How many followers did you gain from that?
Speaker: I don't think I gained any, but the experience was priceless.
Speaker: You gained one follower of your heart.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that's JVN.
Speaker: I like to think so.
Speaker: Oh, and then we're getting to this place where.
Speaker: Can I say, before we move any further, up until this point,
Speaker: when things do take a pretty distinct turn, I was not on the opposite side of what Dax was saying.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I was feeling very much like the Enneagram 9 that I am.
Speaker: I could see both sides.
Speaker: And I thought this is a two things can be true situation that we find ourselves in.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So that's kind of where I am on the runway before this thing really takes off and I had to reach for my parachute.
Speaker: Because this kind of transitions into this conversation where JV gets cut off a few times, I think.
Speaker: Or he says something and maybe he finishes his thought, but he doesn't actually expound upon what he's saying.
Speaker: There were some misunderstandings.
Speaker: There were some messy interpretations.
Speaker: And nobody had ill intentions.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: But what was so important for me...
Speaker: to relearn or bring again to consciousness was when we over-intellectualize in our debates with people, we sometimes put our compassion in the backseat, in the trunk.
Speaker: Maybe it's not even riding in the car anymore.
Speaker: And that's a dangerous thing to do.
Speaker: I have written down, not everyone can debate in a vacuum.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And that was super relatable to me from the standpoint of someone who still needs, when I'm like, when I'm triggered, when I'm really worked up about something, I...
Speaker: Cannot give you my honest opinion in that moment.
Speaker: Because I'm freezing and I'm being polite and I'm not a threat.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I think myself not a threat.
Speaker: Because the alternative is not usually well received.
Speaker: And it's messy because I do think a lot out loud.
Speaker: And also I say what I fucking say.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And for people who weren't necessarily encouraged to argue, a debate is not a safe place.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I had that problem with this person that I dated because that was, they loved doing debates.
Speaker: And I, I mean, like I do too, to a degree, but they wanted to talk about some stuff that was like,
Speaker: Real serious stuff, but not with any real passion behind it or conviction.
Speaker: I don't even know if it's fair to say that the person that we're talking about loved to debate because –
Speaker: If you are somebody who truly loves the process of debating, that means you love the back and forth.
Speaker: He did.
Speaker: And you are open to learning new information and being wrong and evolving in your opinion.
Speaker: And it seems like more often than not, it was less about wanting to debate and more about being right and proving how right...
Speaker: this person was.
Speaker: You're not entirely wrong.
Speaker: When it felt like this person was quote unquote losing, I feel like this person sometimes used some pretty dirty techniques.
Speaker: And that to me is not somebody who loves debate.
Speaker: That is somebody who loves...
Speaker: Something else.
Speaker: There were lots of opportunities for debate where we had great discussions.
Speaker: I think, though, for this person, what's important to remember is...
Speaker: any appearance of emotion for them was never safe.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And much how we get triggered by our kids, if I showed emotion or distress, that triggered him and he maybe just didn't even realize it.
Speaker: And so then he was pushing back because that made it unsafe.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because we're showing emotions and we don't do that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because you don't show emotions.
Speaker: And I don't even, I mean, like, and I know that this was like a,
Speaker: They're, they, they, I, I would go on about how it's not really connection.
Speaker: It's the illusion of connection.
Speaker: It's not really debate.
Speaker: It's the illusion of debate because they would talk about things like they would have subjects prepared for these family dinners.
Speaker: And I remember him telling me one time they were debating, um,
Speaker: imaginary versus real numbers.
Speaker: And you had to pick a position and then you were going to debate that.
Speaker: And listen, I think it's a fun, cool little family thing to do, but like that's the illusion of it's going to be very easy for most people to debate something that has no physical tie to them.
Speaker: And that's where we get back to this conversation is when you're not personally invested in the topic, you can debate whatever it is that you want and never get emotional.
Speaker: And it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to practice not being emotional when you're taking a position of something you couldn't care less about.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But that's not always the subjects that they tried to debate.
Speaker: Or they would debate something, much like Dax, that they had no dog in that fight.
Speaker: Oh, I used to use that phrase all the time.
Speaker: If you have no dog in the fight, then stop fucking talking about it to someone who does.
Speaker: Or just listen and find out whether or not you think maybe you should have a dog in the fight.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But when you're debating something that is deeply personal to someone and intellectualizing it and coming at it from this curious place,
Speaker: It's not really curious though when you're just arguing to argue.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Or when you are making all these false equivalencies and intentionally misinterpreting or being intentionally obtuse about what the other person is saying and just that obstinate like absolute refusal to say,
Speaker: hmm, maybe I said it wrong, or maybe I'm thinking wrong, or maybe I don't understand you.
Speaker: Tell me more about that.
Speaker: If we were going to try and slice this up like a pie,
Speaker: I would say that this should have been about one half intellectualized and one half compassion.
Speaker: And it was one half intellectualized and one half ego on Dax's end.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And I think that that is an easy trap to fall into.
Speaker: I want to be sure to say that.
Speaker: That's why I found this episode so compelling.
Speaker: Which is why we can sit here and talk about it because we aren't necessarily personally invested in it.
Speaker: We're not going to be as emotionally tied to one position over the other because we're not either of those people.
Speaker: And an interesting experience for me is that I...
Speaker: In whatever way I am invested in it, I sort of relate to not Dax's position, but the experience of being someone who gets a thrill from...
Speaker: engaging in what I think are really thought-provoking, very stimulating conversations to the point where at times I might wander into that.
Speaker: I've lost my compassion and now I'm starting to let ego take over.
Speaker: I mean, this is something that I need to be more aware of.
Speaker: And so I appreciate that this conversation happened because all
Speaker: One of the many things that it brought me to was that this is something that I need to keep on my radar.
Speaker: Bringing it to consciousness.
Speaker: Bingo board.
Speaker: So this is when they start really disagreeing on things and things start becoming about other things.
Speaker: And then people.
Speaker: I think it jumped off with the New York Times.
Speaker: New York Times and him talking about.
Speaker: Dak's saying something about the New York Times and... He said the New York Times is a left-leaning publication.
Speaker: And JVN said, no, it's not.
Speaker: And he said... Because they platform anti-trans columnists and opinion pieces.
Speaker: And he said, well, it can't just be canceled because we fall off on one issue.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Like maybe out of 10 issues, we agree on nine of them.
Speaker: And this one issue that they don't agree with you on, that doesn't cancel their entire thing.
Speaker: That's not exactly what he's saying.
Speaker: And also it's kind of a big issue because it's harmful misinformation.
Speaker: And it's people's actual rights.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like an actual science.
Speaker: Like this is actual facts that are being misrepresented by the New York fucking Times.
Speaker: Well, it reminds me of much later in the episode where they're talking about a percentage of the population.
Speaker: It's 0.02 or 0.2, which sounds like a small number of people.
Speaker: It's hundreds of thousands of people.
Speaker: Do the actual math.
Speaker: So-
Speaker: It might sound small when it benefits you to make it sound small.
Speaker: It might sound insignificant when it benefits you to make it sound insignificant.
Speaker: Isn't that the first thing they teach us in statistics is that statistics can be manipulated?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So JVN does say this thing where he says, how you do anything is how you do everything.
Speaker: So the way that they treat trans people is the way that they treat people.
Speaker: Or the way that the, and their approach to not caring about the science around their carelessness.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: around this one issue it it will carry over into every other thing that they do and the pushback from dax was for someone who does not believe in a binary for things it sounds like you have sort of an all or nothing point of view when it comes to this and as two people who
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: Do spend a lot of time talking about nuance.
Speaker: I had to check myself in that moment because.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, and what are you doing when you say something like that?
Speaker: You're applying a rule across multiple situations.
Speaker: And what is that?
Speaker: Bingo board automating.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You can't automate that.
Speaker: And it's not the same thing.
Speaker: If we had actual bingo boards, they would be catching fire with this episode.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: Because I also had said it is a version of dismembering or disembodiment because you're existing only in your brain.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You're not allowing any of the feelings, any of the emotion.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: You're purely analytical.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's Caitlin Curtis, baby.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So this is where he, Dax starts getting upset and he says he can't push back without being called a bad person.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Well, first of all, no one called him a bad person.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Second of all, when you receive criticism, that is not the same thing as someone having an agenda.
Speaker: And this really triggered me because this was a disagreement that we had.
Speaker: I had often when our personal debates would get too spicy.
Speaker: Not in a fun way.
Speaker: Well, I can't disagree with you.
Speaker: I can't even push back against you.
Speaker: I can't even offer an alternative without you calling me a bad person.
Speaker: Well, I'm not calling you a bad person.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And also me telling you or criticizing the value of the information that you're putting forth does not come, doesn't mean to have an agenda.
Speaker: It doesn't mean that I'm, but then that's an Enneagram eight and fears of being manipulated.
Speaker: Like that's, it's not the same thing when someone tells you, Hey, that's actually not right.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And I have been as guilty of that myself.
Speaker: That's something I've worked a lot on because like I said, arguing wasn't necessarily unilaterally agreed on sort of thing and arguing really isn't a thing.
Speaker: Debating is not so much a thing in our family.
Speaker: It's very uncomfortable.
Speaker: It's uncharacteristic to see Dax in a moment like this because he prides himself on being very self-aware.
Speaker: And to see him in that moment get defensive the way that he did just really lit up
Speaker: a red flag that he was dysregulated.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: That's exactly what I was going to say is there was something about this situation and maybe it had nothing to do really with JVN and the topic.
Speaker: Maybe there was something else that happened earlier that day, but like it definitely reminds me of situations where I get extra triggered about something and I start digging in my heels and I regress a little bit and I kind of retreat to some earlier things.
Speaker: Look at me reparenting myself right now.
Speaker: I got my hand over my heart thinking about my dysregulation.
Speaker: And I... We get into some of that lizard brain stuff.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: And then afterwards I go...
Speaker: It wasn't about that at all.
Speaker: Or there was just some tiny little thread of that interaction that made me think about this whole other thing that I needed to take a moment to deal with.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think you're right.
Speaker: I think that this must have been a moment for him where the way that he just dug in and doubled and tripled and quadrupled down so hard on things.
Speaker: That was very uncharacteristic of them.
Speaker: There's some attachment wounding there, I can say, from my nonprofessional opinion, because that is when we have those really extreme reactions.
Speaker: And I think that might have been the moment when I wanted to check the date on this episode, when it was recorded.
Speaker: It was recorded, we think, in late August because they mentioned some birthdays.
Speaker: I had thought that maybe it was recorded around the time that Ashton Kutcher, who is a dear friend of Dax's, had found himself in some hot water over some decisions that he made.
Speaker: It actually happened before that.
Speaker: So there wasn't a correlation there, but I thought there might be because...
Speaker: you could hear the, the dysregulation.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Which is something that you won't usually hear in a conversation with Dax on this podcast.
Speaker: It's very surprising.
Speaker: Then we start getting into hypothetical data and using hypothetical data to support arguments.
Speaker: and fairness in sports.
Speaker: Yeah, this was such a good point.
Speaker: It's one of those things that has been right there in front of me all along, but I just never really thought of it in the way that JVN says it.
Speaker: And it was such a perfect episode.
Speaker: I'm so grateful for that.
Speaker: Yeah, because it's a callback to the episode that we did on bioethics, where she talks about games are made up.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: They only exist according to the rules that we give them.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And so there is no such thing as fairness in sports.
Speaker: The whole – because sports are made up.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And the rules are not – I mean, it's a non – They were talking about whether or not trans individuals should be allowed to play in sports or on the teams where they are gender affirmed.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And it's not fair.
Speaker: Well, there are lots of things about sports that aren't fair.
Speaker: Economics, disability, geography, genes, and quote unquote natural biological.
Speaker: Which goes back to enhancements.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: What is quote unquote fair?
Speaker: And does everyone deserve to be an Olympian?
Speaker: No, maybe not.
Speaker: So why are we, why it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a straw man.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: It's a straw man argument or fallacy where you're putting, it's a boogeyman.
Speaker: You're putting all of this, this scariness into this thing that like that hasn't even actually happened.
Speaker: Like that's not even, that's not even the problem that,
Speaker: you're trying to highlight.
Speaker: If you want to talk about inequity in sports and making sure that things are fair, address economics.
Speaker: People who get better at sports are more likely to have had the resources to spend on a coach or a private tutor or private lessons or extra leagues, travel ball, or the fact that they had the privilege of free time that they could spend and that their parents had
Speaker: the privilege of free time to take them to these games and in practices.
Speaker: And that's an actual on quote unquote unfairness.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That is extremely prevalent.
Speaker: And Dax's response was, well, then we should be working on making things more fair.
Speaker: We should be working on those things.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: As if those are things that we can fix.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: As if there's ever a point where we can make an even playing field for everyone.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And you can work on two things at one time.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I would like to think that people are actively working on those things.
Speaker: Yeah, we know that that's true.
Speaker: That doesn't mean that the people who are working in support of trans rights have to stop what they're doing.
Speaker: Exactly, and wait for that issue to catch up.
Speaker: That's ridiculous.
Speaker: And we're not going to – we'll not have it.
Speaker: I liked – this happened later, but I thought of it when you were talking about the straw man.
Speaker: Jonathan talks about the acronym for fear is false evidence appearing real.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: I do too.
Speaker: I do too.
Speaker: I know – I'm sure I wrote that down somewhere too.
Speaker: I'm glad you brought that up.
Speaker: And then this is kind of, I guess, back to the point again, where biological advantages are celebrated when it's someone like Michael Phelps, whose body is physically, biologically...
Speaker: predisposed to high performance in that field.
Speaker: He just found the thing that worked for him.
Speaker: And that's not to say that he didn't also work really hard.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But he had some natural advantages.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So why are we picking this one thing?
Speaker: Because it's not really about that thing.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: It's not really about fairness in sports.
Speaker: And it's also not about making sports dangerous because sports are already dangerous.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Sports are inherently dangerous and you already know that going into it.
Speaker: And all, they talk about too, people saying things like,
Speaker: Well, how would it be fair for, you know, if a signed male at birth competed against women, but he never transitioned?
Speaker: You know, he wasn't trans.
Speaker: He was just cis male.
Speaker: How he would just sweep the floor with all these female athletes.
Speaker: That's not... That doesn't happen.
Speaker: No, this is not a thing.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That doesn't – you could have – that's the hypothetical evidence or the hypothetical data.
Speaker: Where does that actually happen?
Speaker: False evidence appearing real.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And I don't know if we made this point, but a lot of what Jonathan was trying to explain was the role of misinformation and
Speaker: in the way that we are influenced politically.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And the amount of misinformation on one side compared to another side.
Speaker: Yes, it exists on both sides, but JVN was saying that it is more pronounced on one side than on the other.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And that is creating very dangerous...
Speaker: Situations for people that are real.
Speaker: Actually dangerous to their life.
Speaker: These aren't hypothetical anymore.
Speaker: These aren't hypothetical anymore.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Are creating very real harm.
Speaker: And then we start talking about intersex and genetics and...
Speaker: As someone who has a degree in anthropology.
Speaker: You do.
Speaker: Oh my God.
Speaker: And I know someone else who studied anthropology and he is a very sweet man and wonderful.
Speaker: And we have great discussions.
Speaker: I like the idea of studying anthropology.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: That doesn't make you an expert on literally everything then.
Speaker: And it also, this was another moment where I had to check myself and go, okay, if that is a path that I decide to go down, I need to be very aware of not starting to view human beings as data and experiments and evidence.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yes, because when we start to do that, that's when we're disembodying, we're disconnecting from our empathy and from our compassion, and we can go into this territory where we end up with very real unintended consequences.
Speaker: I had to look up – I looked up the definition of anthropology because I was certain that I knew what it was, but because I was certain that I knew what it was, I didn't understand why it makes all these people feel like they have –
Speaker: that they're experts on anything and everything related to humans, whether it's science, whether it's psychology, whether it's biology, chemistry, archaeology.
Speaker: Yeah, you're like, what am I missing in this definition?
Speaker: You're just an expert on all things human.
Speaker: Like literally everything that has to do with humanity, emotions and...
Speaker: All of the things?
Speaker: No.
Speaker: According to the Smithsonian, anthropology is the study of humans and societies in the past and present.
Speaker: Now, that is a very broad topic.
Speaker: That does not mean you are a broad expert.
Speaker: There are different branches of anthropology, but I think what's important here is the past and present and the society element to it.
Speaker: Because this doesn't make you an expert on all things human.
Speaker: If you were...
Speaker: That would be, you would be data from Star Trek.
Speaker: Like you would just have, you would be Encyclopedia Britannica, just upload another chip.
Speaker: And again, Dax is usually pretty good at acknowledging, he named his podcast Armchair Expert.
Speaker: Knowing, you know, tongue in cheek.
Speaker: He knows that he knows just enough to be dangerous sometimes.
Speaker: And as someone who I myself will willingly admit that I only know a little bit.
Speaker: You can't then use that to make an argument to
Speaker: invalidate someone else's entire experience, their lived experience.
Speaker: And if you don't continue to do research in those areas, like eventually your info is out of date and you can't be considered in it.
Speaker: So let's say when Dax got his degree in anthropology, he was very well versed in genetics specifically to intersex and XXXY chromosome.
Speaker: Let's say that was his jam.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: If you don't continue to do research in that area and you're quoting old research, then you're not an expert anymore.
Speaker: And your degree in anthropology doesn't help you all that much.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because...
Speaker: And this is where even Dax himself was really presenting some misinformation because it's like half truth or half information or such a distortion of the truth.
Speaker: And he's, they're talking about the different versions of intersex genetic abnormalities.
Speaker: And he says something, oh, intersex is very rare, is so rare.
Speaker: Well,
Speaker: Possibly.
Speaker: And this is where statistics can be manipulated.
Speaker: And this was my whole thing about that cancer that I was concerned about.
Speaker: Is it really rare?
Speaker: Or do we just not look for it?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Is it that this person died and we figured out
Speaker: they died from cancer, but did we look to see where the cancer started?
Speaker: We didn't have any reason to look there.
Speaker: And so we didn't know what you don't know.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And seeing as how the technology to understand DNA and genetics is relatively new.
Speaker: And he, he brings this up.
Speaker: There are plenty of people who were born or who died, who, who were childless and infertile and nobody ever knew why.
Speaker: Well,
Speaker: Maybe some of that's because they were intersex and we just didn't know because we weren't looking for it.
Speaker: Even if we do agree that it is incredibly rare, something that is incredibly rare in this world can still affect, like we said, hundreds of thousands of people and their families and their friends.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So at some point, you got to question, what am I willing to trade off here?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: How dismissive am I willing to be of the experience of all those people?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like, yeah.
Speaker: Where do you draw the line?
Speaker: How much – when does – when – Does that mean they don't count?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because that's not what you're intending to say.
Speaker: But that's what it feels like.
Speaker: But it's laced in there.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's –
Speaker: That whole dilemma of kill one person to save a thousand or a hundred thousand or a million or whatever.
Speaker: It's playing God at that point.
Speaker: And that is not a cute look.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: For anyone.
Speaker: JVN said this thing about for intersex surgery is encouraged to enforce the binary and it's an oversimplification.
Speaker: Again, another incredible point that was right there all along that I just never thought about.
Speaker: At birth, doctors will make these decisions along with the parents or the guardians about which...
Speaker: biological sex to remove, what was the phrase?
Speaker: It's easier to dig a hole than to build a pole.
Speaker: They'll make those decisions at birth.
Speaker: But God forbid.
Speaker: When these infants are not consenting.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But once they reach an age where they are starting to know themselves and can...
Speaker: consent at that point that's complete and utter bullshit we don't just reject it we villainize it exactly how could you how could you possibly know yeah and and also that's just that's against unnatural well it was on it was it wasn't unnatural when they were one hour old uh-huh yeah
Speaker: And just the cognitive dissonance of that.
Speaker: And I was so appreciative of him making that point was either way, surgery...
Speaker: is encouraged to enforce it just depends on when you do it yeah and who's making the decision once you're putting who benefits from this when you're putting the control in the hands of the actual individual and helping them embody and be empowered then we and the patriarchy or society or whoever it is that's benefiting from this
Speaker: loses power and loses control over that person.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: We are confusing the word natural with socially acceptable.
Speaker: And the trouble with that word is that there's a pretty big gap between what people think is socially acceptable.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's almost like if I'm comfortable with it, then it's natural.
Speaker: But those two words aren't always synonymous.
Speaker: Those two words don't always go together.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because we have some pretty big discrepancies as a nation between what some of us are comfortable with versus what others are comfortable with.
Speaker: And who am I to decide for someone else what is and isn't acceptable?
Speaker: If I'm not acting it upon you, does it even matter?
Speaker: What about civil liberty?
Speaker: And boundaries.
Speaker: This is about boundaries.
Speaker: This is about where...
Speaker: I get to live my life and I get to make decisions about myself.
Speaker: And just because you see them and it makes you uncomfortable does not mean that I'm violating one of your boundaries.
Speaker: My boundaries don't necessarily end where your discomfort starts.
Speaker: And then-
Speaker: Another outstanding point that JVN makes, you can tell that they have had to have this conversation so many times.
Speaker: It's heartbreaking.
Speaker: And also, I need to say again how appreciated it is.
Speaker: They talked about how there are people who will say it's not fair to women to have to play in a sport with someone who was not biologically assigned female at birth.
Speaker: And JVN says...
Speaker: What about the fact that male athletes are paid more, have better training facilities, have more opportunities, receive more publicity?
Speaker: If we want to have a conversation about the unfairness and the discrepancy
Speaker: And the disparity in sports, why aren't we spending more time talking about that?
Speaker: And I guess, okay, so if I'm playing devil's advocate, if I'm playing Dax for a moment, how is that argument any different from saying if we're concentrating so much on trans, why aren't we also concentrating on economics and disability and geography?
Speaker: I think that there is a lot that we can do when it comes to – I mean, the U.S. women's national team, soccer team, worked really hard for more fairness and equality and won some pretty big victories.
Speaker: So I think that there is a lot that we can do.
Speaker: And if you are somebody who's coming in saying, for me, this is about fairness and equality –
Speaker: then I think that that is a fair counterpoint.
Speaker: Well, and I think the difference is, okay, so we're talking about, if you want to talk about women's rights, you don't focus on trans women, focus on these other things.
Speaker: I think the thing is, is trans women are women.
Speaker: So when you focus on these other issues, the pay gap and the lack of publicity and all of that, that encompasses trans women.
Speaker: It should.
Speaker: It doesn't exclude them.
Speaker: So it's like the whole pie thing where concentrating on it
Speaker: inherently benefits that population.
Speaker: Whereas sometimes with these other theories or with these other arguments, where it's like, you should be focusing on this instead of that, it does draw away the energy.
Speaker: Yeah, there's a moment where Dax says, I will never disenfranchise women.
Speaker: Will I elevate trans women's rights over women?
Speaker: Trans women are women.
Speaker: So you, it's, it doesn't, it's not the same.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You don't have to.
Speaker: Guess what?
Speaker: No, you won't.
Speaker: You won't.
Speaker: You don't have to.
Speaker: Because trans women are women.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So you are inherently supporting and elevating women's rights.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's like, if you argue for women's rights for voting, you
Speaker: that doesn't mean that you don't think that you're not supporting women politicians or something.
Speaker: You know, like there, it isn't, it encompasses all.
Speaker: When you do the one, it benefits the rest.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think that that is such a glaring moment of not realizing that you have ingested this transphobia.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Not only – To say that without hearing it right away, without knowing as it's coming out of your mouth that you are talking about a population that is included in this umbrella population.
Speaker: To not hear that right away is just a marker of some really internalized –
Speaker: transphobia that we have all been exposed to and that we have all absorbed in some way, shape, or form.
Speaker: And we all have to bring to consciousness and decide whether or not eliminating that aligns with us living our best lives and being our highest selves.
Speaker: So not only are trans women women, but then they are also double marginalized.
Speaker: So let's even assume for a second that there is such a thing as trans women's rights being different from women's rights.
Speaker: why would I elevate trans women's rights over women's rights?
Speaker: Because they're double marginalized.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And he talks, I have something about, written down about cervix haver.
Speaker: I'm not letting you steal my identity to help your cause.
Speaker: The defining characteristic that allows me to relate to women who are oppressed.
Speaker: Somebody saying something about having it's taking issue with the phrase cervix haver like no there's a word for that it's called woman and I'm not going to let you take away my identity as a woman because what makes me a woman is having a cervix.
Speaker: Yeah we've got again I say that's some biological identity if that is so threatening.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Because that's not true.
Speaker: And that would be like, those are the worst kind of feminists are the women who would only advocate for women who are able to reproduce.
Speaker: That in order to be a real woman, you have to be a mother.
Speaker: No one's ever, I'm not going to say that.
Speaker: No womanist is going to say that.
Speaker: If your feminism is not intersectional.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: It's not feminism.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: And just being really interesting about how it was a stealing my identity because that was my defining characteristic that allowed me to relate to other women who are oppressed.
Speaker: And how that does seem a little bit automating.
Speaker: Because instead of having to actually do the work and pulling out the empathy and putting myself in the position of other people and actually listening to their stories, all I have to do is go, well, do we have these matching parts?
Speaker: Then yeah, we can relate.
Speaker: Hot wiring connection.
Speaker: Oh my God.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I'm telling you, these bingo boards, someone get the fire extinguisher.
Speaker: I need you.
Speaker: Serena fucking Williams.
Speaker: I just wrote Serena fucking Williams because at some point there was, JVN I think says, people made an argument that if we allowed people
Speaker: inclusion of trans athletes in sports, then the 10,000th best performing person who was assigned male at birth could beat Serena Williams.
Speaker: In what actual universe?
Speaker: And do you know, I need to look it up, but somebody did interview people and found out
Speaker: An alarming number of men who thought that they could score a point against Serena Williams.
Speaker: What is it that we learned from Glennon?
Speaker: That men necessarily aren't socialized to look in themselves and trust their intuition.
Speaker: We socialize men to be certain.
Speaker: Certain.
Speaker: And dominant.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And blindly certain.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: blissfully ignorant to the point that you will choke to death on a tennis ball.
Speaker: If you step foot on that court, because she will murder you.
Speaker: Oh my God.
Speaker: Have you seen, I saw this.
Speaker: Um, I mean, it's, it's a dime a dozen, but I saw a clip on Facebook where this, um, woman is clearly does some sort of, whether she's a pole dancer or a stripper or exotic, whatever it is that she does, she's an athlete and whether she just does pole fitness, I don't know.
Speaker: And she is like on a street and she like uses a light pole and does like an inversion and then slowly lowers herself down.
Speaker: And this guy standing there with his buddies was like, I could do that.
Speaker: And he goes to do it and he fucking breaks his neck because he just immediately crashes down and his friends all make fun of him.
Speaker: And not only did she do that, she did that in six inch heels.
Speaker: That's that's the thing that you fucked around and you found out.
Speaker: I can do that.
Speaker: I will say it is mesmerizing to think about having that much confidence because we know that having confidence and manifesting can be a very real thing.
Speaker: It's balance, baby.
Speaker: Confidence and ignorance.
Speaker: Sometimes that line just gets real blurry.
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: It's just like the line between gaslighting and...
Speaker: Manifesting.
Speaker: Or fake it till you make it is very, very thin.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Just keep those things in your consciousness is the lesson, I think.
Speaker: Social capital impact.
Speaker: I wrote those words because Jonathan, they really –
Speaker: did their goddamn best not to get emotional during this conversation, which is such a sad state of the world that you have to keep yourself from getting emotional in order to be taken seriously.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Jonathan trudges through for about 45 minutes before getting emotional and starts talking about the reason that this is so personal to them is because if they hadn't had sports as a child, they would have died by suicide.
Speaker: And they think of all of the kids who just want to play on the team.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: They don't care about getting to the Olympics.
Speaker: They're mediocre athletes, but they want to play on a team and they deserve to be on that team and learn teamwork and communication.
Speaker: And all of those skills that translate later in life into job opportunities that enhance character and teach valuable critical thinking skills and interpersonal.
Speaker: And this is socio-
Speaker: Emotional learning.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And JVN talks about the number of trans people who are homeless or without jobs.
Speaker: And there is a direct line between these two things.
Speaker: And he says, I'm not reading about it.
Speaker: I'm living it.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And the energy it takes to stay calm goes out the window when you finally break.
Speaker: And he said, little kids want to play sports.
Speaker: And I wrote, why make an Olympic issue out of it?
Speaker: It doesn't, we're not talking about Olympians.
Speaker: It's a booger pan.
Speaker: We're talking about little kids.
Speaker: And what is the harm in allowing little kids to be on a team together?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: Gosh, there are just so many things.
Speaker: God forbid we let people work together and there not be this big defining line keeping us all separated and disembodied from each other.
Speaker: And the maliciousness of, so there are these states in which you cannot play a sport if you have gone through puberty.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: But in these same states, you cannot suppress puberty with the medications that you need.
Speaker: And that's right around the same time, they're talking about that.
Speaker: And Dax says something.
Speaker: And then JVN says the whole thing.
Speaker: Like, no, there's this state and this is the law.
Speaker: Because he was like, you know, I read about, you know, something blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: And then JVN goes in and explains literally the whole thing.
Speaker: And he goes, oh, wow.
Speaker: wow, I didn't realize.
Speaker: Well, yeah.
Speaker: So if you don't know the whole fucking story, don't talk about it.
Speaker: And that's when he says, I'm not just reading about this.
Speaker: I'm living it.
Speaker: I know that this, it was because it was, it was like in Michigan or something.
Speaker: He was like, I know that this happens or that this is happening because I have a friend who this directly affected because I saw it with my own eyes play out.
Speaker: So if you don't know what you're talking about,
Speaker: Don't get on your podcast microphone and act as though you're an expert on it.
Speaker: And I would venture to say- Which I realize saying that in and of itself for me is a thing that I should also be listening to.
Speaker: We're bringing things to consciousness today, folks.
Speaker: And we never have presented ourselves as any kind of experts on anything other than being hilarious.
Speaker: So, oh darn, what were we just saying before that?
Speaker: What were we just saying before that?
Speaker: Don't make an Olympic issue out of it.
Speaker: Little kids playing together.
Speaker: Why should we be disembodying them or keeping people separated?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It might be gone.
Speaker: But why don't we work on some final thoughts?
Speaker: Yes, for sure.
Speaker: And then maybe it will come back to me.
Speaker: He said, I'm just so tired of trying to explain to people why little kids should feel safe.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Oh, and you know, something else I do want to say is where you were talking about, he tried so hard.
Speaker: They spent so much of this conversation being unemotional and quote unquote reasonable.
Speaker: But wasn't that the most compelling part of the argument?
Speaker: When they were vulnerable and authentic and a little emotional?
Speaker: I found myself again.
Speaker: So I would venture to say that Dax would never talk over a person of color.
Speaker: That a conversation like this wouldn't happen with another underrepresented, targeted member of a community.
Speaker: But that is another way that we have...
Speaker: absorbed this transphobia and we don't even realize it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You can be not transphobic and still cling to or espouse anti-trans ideas.
Speaker: And that's what JVN ends up saying to Dax.
Speaker: I'm not disappointed in you because Dax says, I'm really bummed that things went this way.
Speaker: I feel like I've let you down.
Speaker: And he said, it isn't that you let me down.
Speaker: It's just really discouraging to hear someone who, I'm paraphrasing, but who is progressive and who still espouses these things.
Speaker: things, these beliefs.
Speaker: Your heroes are human.
Speaker: Not saying that Bax is necessarily JVN's hero, but it is, there is something about what a hell of a final thought.
Speaker: There's something about generosity, but then also recognizing and seeing the flaw that can be so hurtful.
Speaker: It's
Speaker: having a fight with our friend or not a fight, but a disagreement or having some sort of fracture with your friend and just checking yourself and being like, maybe this isn't the way that I thought it was going to be, but it is what it is.
Speaker: And it doesn't have to change.
Speaker: It's just people are just people.
Speaker: People are human.
Speaker: People aren't always, we can't ever know someone else.
Speaker: perfectly and so entirely that we're able to 100% predict what they're going to do because we can't even do that for ourselves.
Speaker: And JVN says that according to his therapist, friendships grow through disruption.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And we co-sign.
Speaker: And wasn't it, I think he said his therapist's name was Dan.
Speaker: And I was like, I swear to God, if Dan Siegel is JVN's therapist, I'm moving to LA.
Speaker: Immediately.
Speaker: Actually, he lives in Texas.
Speaker: But they probably, listen, Dan Siegel probably does all this shit over FaceTime now.
Speaker: But in that, you know what that is for me also, that is hearkening back to Stephen Colbert.
Speaker: That is sadness and beauty being reliant on each other.
Speaker: That part of what makes having friendships so rewarding is being able to see those moments of authenticity and experience that.
Speaker: maybe some disappointment or let down or confusion because the pendulum then swings back.
Speaker: You can't have one without the other.
Speaker: And I think that's my final thought.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I would encourage you guys to listen to the episode.
Speaker: And if you feel like you've gotten enough of the debate portion, skip ahead about 45 minutes, 50 minutes in.
Speaker: JVN is an encyclopedia of information about gymnastics.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's right.
Speaker: I learned even more things about gymnastics.
Speaker: They talked about, they've got three different podcasts, Getting Curious, Pretty Curious, which is the beauty industry podcast.
Speaker: And then Ask JVN, which is sex and relationships.
Speaker: There was another curious one, wasn't there?
Speaker: Was that the bi-curious?
Speaker: Oh, I don't know.
Speaker: Did I miss one?
Speaker: I thought there were multiple curious.
Speaker: There's getting curious and pretty curious.
Speaker: I thought there was a third curious.
Speaker: And then there's... I thought it was called Ask JVN, but maybe there was a... Maybe curious was in there somewhere for that one.
Speaker: It would be on brand.
Speaker: It would be.
Speaker: Get curious, but don't get so curious that you stop being compassionate.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I will do some research on that and we'll put it up on the Insta or whatnot.
Speaker: JVN, we love you.
Speaker: So, so much.
Speaker: Dax, we don't not love you.
Speaker: We don't not love you, but it's not your moment right now.
Speaker: Maybe just sit down and have a think.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But also, Dax, the vulnerability that you displayed by choosing to go on and publish this podcast and air this podcast knowing doesn't paint you in such a great light.
Speaker: That's super honorable.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a good point because people have learned a lot, including us, from this podcast.
Speaker: A lot of intimate details about the way your brain thinks and we appreciate that.
Speaker: That is bravery.
Speaker: That is true, man.
Speaker: That's really good human stuff.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Thanks again for listening.
Speaker: If you guys have thoughts about this episode, please contact us at podthingspodcast at gmail.com.
Speaker: Find us on Instagram at we can do pod things with underscores between the words or go on our TikTok and maybe you'll get a hold of one of us in a few years when we check the TikToks.
Speaker: This has been We Can Do Pod Things.
Speaker: I'm Annalise.
Speaker: I'm Emily.
Speaker: We'll see you next week.
Speaker: Thanks, guys.
Speaker: Bye.
